ML19291C156
| ML19291C156 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 01/09/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19291C158 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8001230043 | |
| Download: ML19291C156 (33) | |
Text
I-NUCLE AR REGUL ATO RY COMMIS!: tsN IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING DISCUSSION OF TMI UNIT I MANAGEMENT CAPABILITY & TECHNICAL RESOURCES e
Place Washingtgn, D. C.
Date. Wednesday, 9 January 1980 Pages 1-32 1791 130 Tele rere:
(202)047 3700 ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficialReporters att North C pitel Street Weshingten. O.C. 2000 I NATIONWIDE COVERAGE DAILY
1 DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States 9 Janury 1980 in the Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on Wedne sday,
Commissions 's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., Washington, D. C.
The This transcript meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it-may contain
~ inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational Purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding. as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
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UNITED SfATES OF AMERICA 2
.iUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMI SSION 3
4 5
uISCUSSION OF TMI UNIT 1 o
i4Al.AGEMEWT CAPA3ILITY & TECHNICAL RESOURCES 7
o Room 1130 v
1717 H Street Nor thwe s t 10 Pla shing ton, D.C.
Il 12 Wednesday, January 9,
1950 13 i+
Tne Commi ssion me t, pursuant to notice, at 2:20
~
15 p.m.
Io EEFORE:
17 JOH;4 F. AMEARriE, Cha irman Ic VICTOR GILINSKY, Co mmission er ly RICHAdu T. KENNEuf, Commi ssione r 2C J05EPH :.:. HEdOR IE, Commissioner 21 ALSO PHESE.JT:
Leonarc Bickwit, Ecwarc Hanranan 22 anc o.ar:y "alscn.
23 24 25 1 7 9,i 1,3 2
0690102'-
3 Aksar i
PH0CEEDINGS 2
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Our second meeting has the 3
purpose to discuss the TMI unit I proc eeding, particularly 4
with respect to an issue raised by Commissioner Gilinsky.
5 think the General Counsel is prepared to get in o
discu ssion?
7 MR. SICKWIT:
Yes.
This meeting was requested by o
dr. Gilinsky initially.
He suggested that the management v
competence issue was of sufficient importance ano of 10 sufficient character as to merit Cocaission -- direct 11 Commission involvement right at the start, and tnerefore 12 pro posec that tne Comn11ssion take up the ma tter direc tly, in 13 erfect pull the i ssue out f ron the Board anc hear it on its 14 own.
lo Ger office recommenced against that proposal.
He lo nas now proposeo an alternative wnich is to give f urther 17 guidance to the Board on the i ssue, anc in adcition cirect ic tne Boara by orcer, wnich woulc incorporate this guicance, 19 to go cirectly to the management competence issue as the 2G first item in i ts hearing, reach a partial initial cecision 21 on that issue, anc refer it up to tne Commission for review.
22 Tnat revie.s would take place concurrently witn tne 23 Scarc's ac tion wi ta respe ct to the remaining issues in the 2*
case.
2u Ine twc cuestions, as we see it, before the
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Comai ssion, are, one, snould additional guidance be issued 2
to the Board on tnis matters and secondly, should the 3
procecures for the handling of the TMI I proceeding be 4
alterea as suggested in his memorandum.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Vic, is that an accurate o
characterization?
7 C0;4MISSIONER GILINSKI:
Yes.
o Mii. BICKJIT:
I would suggest that the harcer V
question is the alteration of the procedures, and tha t the 10 Commission adoress tnat one first.
11 And I woulc also suggest that the Commissioner put 12 forward his reasons f or going that route.
13 CHAIRMAN AHdARNE:
Vic?
14 Coi41.tISS IONER GILIN3KI:
Well, I recently suggested 15 that the Commi ssion ~ i tself take up this i ssue, and I gave lo f our reasons f or that.
17 One is that of tne various issues before tne lo Board, this is the one tne Commi.ssion is most likely to take l>
up af ter the Soarc arrive s a t a partial initial oecision.
20 It may, in fact, be the only issue that the 21 Co.waission takes u p in any grea t detail.
22 Ni t hou t Commi ssion guidance, the Board will neve 23 cifficulty in cuiloing a satisf actory recora on this issue.
24 I think the Comnission is, of all Ene bodies in the agency, 25 tne most com pe ten t to deal wi tn this particular issue, and I 1, i, )
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think snoulo we, on review, require -- impose some new 2
requirements, it will then extend the proceeding for those 3
to be implemented, when, in fact, t ha t process could be going on in parallel with the rest of the hearing.
5 Now I have thought about the General Counsel's o
modification, anc it seems an entirely reasonable one which 7
is to have tne Board addre ss this i ssue, this management c
i ssu e, first at an early cate so tha t it would be available e
v f or Commi ssion review while the rest of the hearing goes 10 on.
That seems --
11 CHAIRMAN AhEARNE:
It wasn't clear that t ha t wa s 12 the General Counsel's pro po sal.
13 MR. BICKilIT:
It was an option to be posed before 14 Ine Commission.
It was not a recommendation of ours.
15 CHAIR.. TAN AhEARN E:
Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Jid I ciiaracterize it as a 17 recommendation?
Ic CHAIRMAd AnEARdE Wo, no.
Iv COMMISSIONER G1LIriSKI:
If I cid, I'm sorry.
20 In any case, it is a suggesteo change.
21 CHAIR:4Ad AHEARNE:
Now?
22 (Laugnter.)
An option de velo ped cy the 2*
General Counsel.
25
- G. S IC.C:I t s that's right.
n.
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6 A.Maar i
2 CO.0.iISSIONER GILItiSKI All right.
In any case, 3
t na t seems a reasonable course to me, for the very same 4
reasons tnat I outlined earlier in f avor of the original 5
pro po sal.
o CHAIR.4All AliEARdE:
Len, do you have any thougnts 7
about the impact of asking the Board to make such a parrtial o
initial decision would have in the process?
MR. SICKWIT:
One of the arguments that 10 Commi ssioner Uilinsky out forward is this might save some il time.
12 I read that as time prior to restart.
I t's time 13 prior to issuance of decisions, one of which might be 14 restart.
15 We find it very dif ficult to gauge the time lo im pa c t, t ha t there are a numoer of time periods that I think 17 the Concission ought to f ocus on.
Ic We also have communicated tnis morning, at the lv request of Commissioner Hendrie, wi th the Board to try to 20 f urther our understancing of time impacts, and I'll relate 21 tnose to you.
22 As backgrouno, as we structured this orce, the 23 Board was to reacn a par tia l initial aecision on the short 24 term rec,uirements, anu on progress wi tn respec t to tne long 25 te rm r quirements, af ter it finished its full e
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adjucicatory hearing of the matter.
2 CO4MISSIONER HENDRIE:
When you say this oraer, 3
you mean not the draf t oraer on management competence 4
issues, but ratner the basic order establishing the TMI I 5
proceecing?
o MR. BIC.< WIT:
Exactly.
The August order.
7 It was then contemplated that the Commi ssion, in 35 aays, would reach a decision on whether to lif t the o
v immeciate eff ectiveness of the initial August order.
If the 10 Soarc comes to an earlier partial decision on the matter 11 of management competence ques tion, it seems clear tha t the 12 Soard will have to rece ss its hearing in orcer to allow for 13 the f fing of proposea findings and in order to reach a I-de c is ion, tha t hearing will probably have to stay rece ssed 15 wnile the Commission consiaers exceptions taken to the lo Board's partial initial decision, so that is a delay f actor 17 associatea with this option.
le Part of that delay, I thinK, will be got cack l>
through a lessening of the time taken by the Board at the 20 enc of its hearing witn respect to the short term issues and 21 Progress on tne long term issues.
22 In o ther woras, if it is considering 23 annagement competence early in the game anc reaches a 2,
pa r ti al initial vecision on it, it will not have to consicer 25 it later in the game.
I
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We do not feel that tho se two time periods will 2
equate asking the Board to reach two partial initial 3
decisions and requiring filings on two matters, on two sets 4
or ma tters, ratner than one.
It's going to lengthen this 5
proceecing below.
o The Soard estimates that you will have a ne t loss 7
in terms of time by going f rom one partial initial decision a
to two partial initial decisions of 40 to 45 days.
v MR. MALSCH:
Well, minimum 45 days.
10 MR. EICKWIT:
Minimum 40 to 45 days.
I'm not il clear how that calculation is made,but that's something tha t 12 ougnt to be taken into account.
13 lion tnere will be a saving, no doubt, of time 14 prior to restart, prior to decisions, one of which may be is restart at the Conmi ssion level, if this is c'one, because 10 some of the Commi ssion consideration will be cone in 17 parallel with Board consiceration of other issues.
Io It should ce rememoered, nowever, that it is lv conicaplatec uncer the orcer that the Commission will reach 20 a aecision on restart 35 days after it receives the partial 21 initial cecision on snort term actions and progre ss on long 22 terra acticns tha t comes up f rom tne Board.
23 So that if tne Commission adheres to tnat 2*
schecule, and if the Commission does in f act lift imme dia te 2b effectiveness on that 35-aay sc hedule, you will not save
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much time tnrough the adoption of this procedure.
2 However, if the Commission does not adhere to that 3
schedule, ooes not lif t i mmediate ef f ec tivene ss, when i t 4
considers the ma tter, whe ther it adheres to the schedule or 5
not, substantial savings of time may be possible through the o
in-parallel rather than serie s consiceration of these 7
ma tters.
o All of unich is to say that it is a very confusing y
matter.
It is very cifficult to estimate whether there will 10 be time savings or not, and the extent of them.
Il On balance, I would give you my gut reaction that 12 time will be lost prior to restart, if this option is 13 a cc epted.
I can't document i t, but those are some of the 1,
f ac tors tha t go into tnat gut reaction.
15 COMi.il 5 SIDER GILINSr;Y:
,Well, coesn't it turn on lo wnether you taink the aanagement competence of tne utility 17 will be a ma jor i ssue a t the Commission level or not?
If it le turns out not to be, then it --
ly i.f R. S I CrD ! I T :
Then it also turns on whether that 2G scheoule is achered to.
The Commis sion i s commi ted a t thi s 21 Enint to a 35-day scheaule on lif ting immediate 22 e f f ec tiveness.
23 It may just ce that the Commission will say t hi s 24 h an issue we want to review in de pth, but we'll adhere to 25 cur 35-day schedule.
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COV!4ISSIONER CILINSKY:
Well, it's not adhering to s
2 the 35-day schecule.
It's a cecision you make a t the end of 3
t ha t pe riod.
4
.4R. BICKWIT:
That's right.
5 I t may also be, as I triea to outline, that the 6
Conmission would say at the end of the 35-day period, we 7
haven't got enough to lif t immeciate effectiveness.
6 C0:4/4ISSIONER GILIh5KY:
I expect us to adhere to v
the schedule we lay down, but the question really is what 10 cecision we will be mating at t ha t po in t.
11 vR. SICKNIT:
Exactly.
12 C044IS3IONdR GILINSKY:
iio w, if you think this 13 issue is not going to affect that decision in an important le way, tnen you're probably right.
If you think it might, it 15 mignt be otherwise, as you saic.
16 in R. BIQJfIT:
It's still not clear to me, because 17 if we take as given -- and I haven't got the documen ta tion lo for this -- if we take as given the reaction on tne lv presicing officer that you will lose 45 days prior to -- 45 20 days below, it may still be an important matter Inat the 21 Commi ssion may want to consider above, and may not give the 22 full 45 cays back.
23 CHAIRFks AHEARNE:
Let me ask a question, then, 24 ana I realite that I gather all you really talked to the 25 Presicing officer about was procedural i ssue s.
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MR. BICKWIT:
That's right.
Sta tu s i ssue s.
What 2
woulo the status be.
3 CHAIR:4AN AHEARNE:
Now I'm asking you as our General Counsel, or Marty in his General Counsel Of fice 4
5 role, let us suppose two individuals scratch individual o
conclusions, end see if you can tell me what the difference 7
would be in assumption i versus a ssumption 2.
o In this pro posal, assumption 1 is that upon 9
review, the Licensing Board makes its decision, we review 10 it, and the conclusion is that the management tal en t teaa, il et cetera, and organizational structure of GPU-Met Ea is 12 a cequate to handle the operation cf the plant, and then you 13 move on.
14 MR. SICKWIT:
Are you adopting Commissioner's --
^
IS CHAIRMAN AhEARNE:
Either way, because there's a 10 del ta time impact.
That'a assumption 1.
17 Assumption 2 is we review those and concluce it's 16 inadequate, that the management --
ne re has to ce some ly f unaamental changes made, whe ther these are significant 20 acdi tions to Metropolitan Ecison's s taf f, the GPJ staff, 21 joining a pool of talent somewhere.
21 It seems to me that under a ssumption 1,
the 23 procedural description you are following is accurate.
I'm 24 Just woncering under assumption 2, because under a ssumption 25 2, we would have concludec that here is a major change tha t
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woulc have to be made.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Tha t wa s the po in t I was 3
trying to make.
4 MR. BICKMIT:
You made that po i n t.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You can't effect tho se o
changes overnignt.
7 MR. BICKr.'IT:
Tha t's true, and that may be true of e
a lot of the issues being considered in this case, but I v
think your strongest point is the Commission is the one 10 that's mostly likely to change signals in this area, and 11 t herefore there is some advan tage in getting the Commission 12 into the game quicker, rather than la ter on this issue.
13 I think tnat's the strongest argument f or going in 14 this direction.
15 COl1MISSIO14ER GILINSKY:
Suppose you do require lo tnese acoitions that you spoke of at the management level in 17 one way or anotner.
If you leave the proceeding on the lo track it is on now, you will have resolved all tne technical ly i ssue s.
The Commission will then take up this question.
It 20 may or could conceivably decice to require certain 21 a ugmentations of management or wha te ver.
22 Inase, then, ei ther can't be brought aoou t right 23 away, and they'll take some time -- and w ha t I was 24 suggesting was that by starting that process early, one can 25 cover that contingency wi thou t extending the period 1791 142
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w it hout pu tting it all in series.
2 MR. BICKWII:
I think that puts.the issue well.
3 If you expect a change.
CO:4MISSIONER GILINSKY :
It's not a matter of 5
expecting.
It's a matter of, you know, i t's the proceeding o
and we'll hear the issues argued, but if you take seriously 7
the possibility of some Commission action in that area, then o
it seems to me this is an attractive course.
Y MR. SICKWIT:
Differing from the Board's action?
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Dif f ering from the Boart 's 11 action.
12 MR. BICKWIT:
The estimate of the likelihood of 13 that has to be cranked into the decision.
14, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It strikes me this is the is one area where that is leaving aside the absolute lo procablities most likely to happen, compared to other 17 areas.
I t's the one in whicn the Commission can most to erf ectively engage anc is compe tent to deal with, or so I tv t hink, tnan, as I saic, any other body here.
20
.1R. BICKWIT:
Now, then, I guess it also ought to 21 be flagged for the Commission that the other question we are 22 going to ceal with tocay is wnether f urther guidance can be 23 proviced to the Board in this order, and whether there is 24 any chance of minimizing the likelihood of that happening by 25 s te pping up the amoun t of guidance that the Commi ssion can
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now give to the Board on that question.
2 Co.'.t!.IISSIOGER HENDRIE:
In discussions with the 3
presiding officer, was there any thought given to what sort 4
of difficulty or perturbation with regard to the other 5
issues in the case, and sorting out precisely which of the o
management issues tna t would then have to come first, and on 7
which a partial ini tial decision would be rendered?
Ha ve c
you got any feeling?
9 I ask because my own position on whether we s hould 10 go with a f urther order of the kind that is before us in 11 craft will be heavily influencec by some sense of wne ther 12 that can be done in an orderly and reasonable way in the 13 proceecing, and in view of the of ficers we have asked to run 14 it, or whether it may be so a1fficult to sort out the 15 management issues, really, that it may have very disturbing lo effects on the calance of the proceeding.
17 MR. MALSCH:
I think there will be a; least some le cif ficulty in sorting out which issues fall in which ly category.
It really depends upon now precise -- if the 20 Commission were to cirect special attention be given to 21 these issues, it woulu de pend upon now precise the 22 Commission could be as to exactly what it had in mind.
23 I think it's true tha t if all the order says is 24 management com pe t en c e, there will be some debate below as to 25 whether some issue f all s in tnat ca tegory, or some other
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category.
That coulc be a source of some difficulty.
2 As I say, tha t can be overcome by the Commission 3
being very precise as to what it means oy those issues that 4
it wants to hear, or it wants the Board to issue an early 5
cecision on.
o I think it is true that if all the Commission said 7
was render an early partial decision on management o
compe tence issues, tnere would be a t least some delay below v
as to what enat included.
10 One of the aifficulties is that there are only a 11 f ew contentions on this i ssue, and you could look a t t ho se 12 pretty quickly, and I suppose the Commission coulc actually 13 say we want to nave an early decision on that contention and 14 this contention.
That would clear tha t up.
15 The dif ficulty is the Board is also expre ssly lo charged witn accressing tha t i ssue.
Quite apart from the 17 contentions, the Board itself has this responsibility, and le tne Bourc itself woulc have to make a decision as to where ly i ts responsioili ty enaed and the Commi ssion's took of f.
20 You know, it could ce done, but there will be some 21 cif ficulty, cepending upon how precise the Commi ssion is in 22 i ts cirection.
23 Also it's a possibility tha t even if ycu were able 24 to ca tegorize tne i ssue s, whe ther they f ell into the 22 management competence area or some other area, tnere will 179i
0o90306.
16 A68ar i
procab1) ce, even a s to tho se that fall outside that area, 2
some spillover or influence.
The Commission's decision may 3
influence the cecision in some other areas.
I t's hard to 4
preaict in advance how tnat would be, but it's at least a 5
po ssibili ty.
o COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Now, let's see.
The draft 7
orcer is not very specific.
It says o
"In addi tion to the management competencxe issues y
specified in the August 9 order..."
10 Okay.
Now has somebocy got the August 9th order
.11 and can help me cefine?
12 MR. BICKWIT:
It's attached to that order.
13 COMMISSIONEW HENDRIE:
Now, in addi tion to that, 14 the drart order says those tnings in the August 9th order is whicn are attacned, the parties should also acdress the lo measures which the licensee has implemented to clearly 17 define infinitive spli tter -- the roles and to responsioilities.eitnin its organization for plant ly operations, normal and emergency, specification of 20 o pera tions command, et cetera.
21 Is this going to be specific?
Would tnis be a 22 specific enough cefinition of the management com pe ten ce 23 i ssues so tna t tnere coulo be a fairly civ'r-cut 24 determination below?
Or is the Soard still now going to 2b have to wallow around in this language and fight its way 179i 146
Cov0307 17 Arlaar i
through assorted motions?
2 COMMISSIONER KEt:HEDY :
There are seven contentions 3
now, aren't there?
4 Md. MALSCH:
That's right.
5 COMMISSIONER HElWRIE:
Clearly contentions which o
have been identified in the prehearing conference order of 7
the Board, and whicn relate to management competence can be o
just taken out neatly to this contention, but as you say, Y
there is in addition the mandate from the Commission to the 10 boarc to examine this issue, no ma tter if nobody raises a 11 contention aoout it.
And they then have to decice what 12 tneir scope of review is, and the guidance which they get is 13 item No. 6 from the initial order, as attached to these 14 tnings, and then the se addi tional words about in addition, 15 parties srould adoress tne measures wnich the licensee has lo implementeo to clearly define the roles and responsibilities 17 within its organization f or plant operations.
lo Now ic seems a li ttle thin to me, but I'd glad to 19 oe adviseo or instructec.
Do you think Mr. Smita and his 20 conorts will be able to move briskly to the issues of tnis 21 instruction, or are they going to have to have a hearing to 22 cecice wnat Inis part of the hearing is about?
23
!.iR. MALSCH:
It's hard to predic..
I aoulo say 24 this would give rise to some dif ficulty.
Not so much i t 26 will be a disaster, but i t's really hard cc predi ct.
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( Laugnter. )
2 MR. MALSCH:
I've go t to recognize --
3 COMi.ilSSI0 DER HEHORIE:
Marty, it can't be a 4
disaster because our Boaras, our Staff, legal counsel in 5
tnis agency has spent years ge tting these misshapen objects o
hurlea at tnem f rom this side of the table and, you know, 7
they proceed to pat them into shape one way or another to o
keep it f rom being a cisaster.
So I have great confidence 9
that the Boaro will survive it all, but I was kind of hoping 10 it would go easier than that if we do this.
As I say, I really have a harc time 12 predicting that.
I con't think this is going to give a lot 13 of cifficulty.
I think it will give some aifficulty, but I 14 really can't precict -- be very precise about i t.
is CO,.i!.IISS IONER GILINSKY :
We're talking about the lo specific order nere, draf t oroer?
17 MR. MALSCH:
f e s.
Io CO:.1.il SSIOddR HEi'iDRIE:
Yes. because I was asking ly is the craf t orde r, a s i t stands, sufficiently specific witn 20 regaro to these issues you would want the Board tr he ar 21 first, so that they can make a reasonable -- you know, make 22 an expecitious scoping of t ha t part and get moving.
Or are 23 they going to have great cifficulty establishing the 24 bouncary of that first paten.
25 CD,,lMISSIONER GI' !NSKY :
'V e li, if the order needs 1791 148
JoV0309 19 AR:ar i
to be fixec up, let's fix it up.
2 CHA IRNAN AHEARNE:
I think what Joe is suggesting 3
is, do you have any more specific items that you would want 4
to aodress?
Tnat's sort of my original, I guess, reaction 5
bacK some time ago, is that it wasn't clear to me wha t 6
f urtner accitional specifics we were prepared to give them.
7 In the absence of laying out sets of specifics, it wasn't clear wnat could be accomplished by pulling it out.
a y
Col.iMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't know, it seems to 10 me it's a separable i ssue.
I don't, in my mind, have great il dif ficulty se parating this f rom whe ther or not some 12 s truc tural member is --
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I had one like that the 14 o tner cay.
I t wa s one, I can't tell you what it is, but 15
,I'll know it when I see it.
Io CHAIRMAN AhEARN E:
I woulc have thought, t ho ug h,
li that part of the Boaru's conclusion or our conclusion would le ce reacned on examining cne approacn that the licensee was ly
-taking to accressing a lot of the other issues also.
20 CO.. i.ilSS IO:JEH KdhilEU(
Adcressing tha t point, Vic, 21 counsel on November 23rd said the Commi ssion has already 22 s pli t tne pro c eec ings.
Since special procedures are already 23 appliec. a resolution of saf ety issues prior to plant 2*
startup, consideration of psychological impa c ts, lif ting out 25 o ther issues for special consideration woulc complicate
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20 Ad:ar i
ma tters f ur tner.
2
!!ow tna t's a flat statement.
What coes it mean?
3 iSow wnat coes it mean, " complicate ma tters f urther"?
4 A,
how complicatec is it already, and B, what's 5
the adcitional complication being introducea by such a o
mo tion?
7
!,iR. BICKWIT:
The additional complication is that o
you've got anotner -- you've got another partial initial y
decision, and I tnink relevant to that is any complication 10 that arises from the points idr. Hendrie nas nade.
11 Secondly, you've go t the Commission considering 12 this matter, while otner matters are being considerea by the 13 Board, and you've got tne possibility of remand.
The 14 question is what the Boara then does witn the matters before la it.
Io I don't think any of these complications are 17 unmanageable, out there's no doubt we'll stand witn our flet lo statement that accitional com plica tions are --
19 CO.4!!.I SS IO.sEs KdigiEJY :
Could I addre ss tne remand 20 question, because tha t occurred to me..
21 If the Commission were to take this ma tter up, it 22 woula first require cne Board to take it up first, aiscose 23 or it, with a partial initial decision, refer it to the 24 Co mmi ssion, the Comni ssion consider it.
In the unlikely 25 even t that it would reacn come reasonably timely cenclusions 1791 150
Oc903.I I.
21 A.4:dr i
requiring a remand, then what would the Board be obligated 2
to co?
Set aside its ongoing proceeding and revert to 3
furtner consiceration of this issue, since it had been 4
directed to consider it first above other issues?
5 Md. BICKWIT:
They would be obligated to do what o
they were orderec to co.
7 Car,1!.IISSIONER NEhNEDY :
The Commi ssion woula have o
to decide that?
y MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
And my que ss would be if you 10 acopted the thrust of the proposal, you would want them to 11 go back to management com pe tenc e.
12 COM..tI5SIONER KEhdEDY :
So an ongoing proc eeding 13 woulu halt essentially, and it would reopen its earlier 14 proceecing on management competence, go through i t, pre pa re 15 a new record, certify t na t record back to the Commission Io again?
Is that the way you see it?
17 in R. BICaWIT:
Inat is certainly a possibility.
Io COMi!.I5S I0dE.4 KEUNEJY :
It souncs to me that it lv coula be best cnaracterized a s a potentici proceaural 20 morass.
But tnen we're accustomed to those, too.
21 1.iR. S I CKn IT :
I'd wan t to look at the particular 24 cancioate before agreeing to that characterization.
23 (Laugnter.)
2*
CHA IR4. TAN AHE ARiib t Len, do you nave any more 25 poin ts you want to make?
\\19\\ \\5\\
Oov0312 22 MR. BICKWIT:
I don't.
Ahsar 1
2 CHAIR.4Ad AHEARNE:
Vic?
3 CO 4MI SS I0iiER GILINSKY :
Well, only this:
4 We're talking about doing in parallel what would o
o therwise be done in series, or might be done in series, and o
saying that the earlier cc:aplications are not sometning we 7
want to get into, what is in eff ect saying that you're o
pretty sure that you're not going to take it uo later anc v
extend tne proceeuing at that point.
10 It seems to me that the only body that is likely 11 to really impose -- leave it at might impose
-- a 12 significant requirement in the management area is in fact 13 the Conci ssion.
And it ought to ceal with the issue as 14 early as possible, so ena t should there be any requirement 15 imposec, it is imposeu as early as po ssible so that it,can lo be dealt with as early as possible.
17 I tnink that simple fairness requires that.
Ic Co..it.tI SS IOiiER HEnDRI E :
< ell, what you do is invest lv somewnere 45 cays plus early in tne pro s pe c t Ina t in the 20 overall sequence, you will get it back and maybe a good deal 21 more, to boot, and I aon't know, it might turn out to be a 22 gooa thing to do.
23 on the other hand, if it really creates a lot of 24 tur.aoil in the coard getting on with its work, well, it 25 mignt not be.
I don't know.
I find it very hara to judge.
17;i 152
Ocv0313 23 Adrar i
COMMISSIONER GILIN5KY:
Tnere is a certain 2
traueof f ir.volvec, there's no question about tha t.
3 CJAIRMAd AHEARHE:
I think if we can give the 4
Boara more focused cirection, I might subscribe to it.
At 5
the moment, looking at wnat we would be telling the Board. I o
find it hard to believe tha t that would lead with them 7
coming up to a useful proauc^ to us.
o COMMISSIONER KENNE0f:
Excuse me?
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What we would be telling them 10 here. I find that difficult to conclude that would give a ll useful product.
12 C0;&.I55 IONER GI LIli3KY :
But why woulc you think 13 you'll get a usef ul product at tne end of the proceeding?
14 You're not giving them any guidance beyond what is here.
15 CHAIRMAW AHEARNE:
Because a t the end of th e lo proceecing, tney a t t na t time woulc have sat through all of 17 Ene recora tnat taey woulo have then tried to established,
~
lo and I think the question of manag,ement competence will iv ei ther be cirectly a result of some specific focused 20 questions, or else as a result of an integration of the 21 overall picture that tne board is going to get on the 22 licensee's a pproach to all of these i ssues.
23 C0!.tMISSIONEW HENDRIE:
Or more likely both, John.
24 And by waiting to be -- you know, they've heard the whole 25 tning, anc tney are acle to --
!791 153
Ocv0314 24 AR a'r i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You will get tha t in tegration.
2 Trat's what we would get normally.
And by saying no focus 3
first, you really are saying that you don't need that 4
integration, but that you can focus on a f ew very specific 5
or taaybe many very specific questions.
And I can see that o
in crinci ple, but in practice at the moment I don't think 7
those cuestions are sufficiently focused to do that, and so o
I woulo conclude that we are really relying on the v
integration of the whole pa cka ge.
Anu I conclude tnat 10 CostMISSIntJER KEUNEDY You are not suggesting that ll the adcition of tne language in this draf t order would not 12 be nelpful?
13 CHAIR.wAN AHEARNE:
Oh, no.
If COMMISSIONER KENNED (*
It seems to ne that it does is acd one dimension tha t was not there bef ore, and in somewha t to more specific language than it used beforet so to that li extent, it woula ce bound to be helpf ul.
lo how, naving saic tna t, it seecs to ne that unless ly one were to sit cown and uncertake a management survey of 20 the cor.pany here, snort of that, the only aay you are going 21 to address unis question is in the broader contex t tha t you 22 are talking about.
The to tal package of what you see of the 23 company, of the f acts as they are laid ou t in the hearing.
24 Ana you have to judge i t against that type of a background.
25 CO?tl.(I SS IO;1ER GI LI NSKY :
'/lha t is it you expect the 37n r
i /
i l34
0690315 25 Adnar i
Board to co?
2 COMMISSIOJER KENNEJY:
Look into all of the 3
questicns tnat were raisec in the August 9th order, plus 4
that raised in this draf t order, and consider the o
contentions before it in this area, specifically, ano look o
a t all of the questions that will arise as to saf ety.
7 CO:.(M I SS IONER GI LINSKY :
On the management issue, o
per se?
v CotiMISSIONEH KENNEDY:
- -le 11, that's it.
10 Co.4MISSIONER GILINSKY:
Just look at tne li contentions?
12 Co.mISSI0 DER KEhNEDY:
No, no, no.
Review all of 13 the questions tnat were put to it in the August 9th order, 14 alcait they are cerhaps not all-encompassing or complete 15 list, in adcition to that posed in this draf t order, which I lo woulc give them as a further instruction.
I would give them 17 that instruction that is in this draf t as a furtner lo elucidation of what we're concerned about.
Iv COMaISSI0 DER GILINSKY:
Let's see, you're pointing 20 to what, now?
21 CO:.tMI SSIONER KEhd EDY :
It says -- this is the 22 craft orcer.
It says:
23 "In adcition to he management competence issues 24 specifiec in the August e orcer, the parties should also 23 acdre ss the measures which the licensee nas implemented 1791 155
~
Ce903 l o.
26 AR or i
to clearly define the roles and responsibilities within its 2
organir.xation for plant operations.
These measures should 3
encompass both normal and emergency conditions, including 4
specifications of operations command."
3 And tna t's an additional --
6 CHAIRi4AH AHEARNE:
Proposed issue paragraph 17 7
MR. BICKWIT:
I think that's right.
o COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
Y And, indeed, if :e can think of further 10 elucioation of this kind to give the Soard that much addi tional a ssistance, well, splendid.
I'd be all f or tha t.
12 The only thing that concerns me about bringing it 13 up in acvance is that issue which counsel raises, the 14 accitional complica tion in wnat is alreacy a very 15 complicated procecural si tuation.
16 It seems to me that usually doesn't help.
It 17 usually tencs to obfuscate and not clarify issues, and makes lo it narcer to get things sortec out, harcer to reach Iv decisions, ano that usually means delay, 20 I'm not sitting here saying the only point of this 21 exercise is celay or lack of delay, that i sn' t tne point.
22 W ha t we are interested in is the f acts on the basis of wnich 23 to make a decision, and we are talking about 45 oays in this 24 circumstance.
25 Tnat, measured against total amount of time that i771 156
0c90317 27 Adiar I
is going to have elapsed, is going to be miniscule.
2 CHAIRMAd AHEARdE I guess I come to the same 3
conclusion, but for a dif ferent reason.
I'm not so 4
concerned aoout the 45 cays, and I'm not so concerned about 5
acding the additional complica tion, because I tend to agree o
wi th Vic tha t if there is a major change being laid on as 7
far as the management structure is concerned, that's going e
co be a much longer delay that comes at the end, and I have 9
to conclude at the moment t ha t the way this management issue 10 is going to be addressed is with heavy reliance upon the 11 integration overall of the ma terial that will be examined.
12 And I don't think even with these additional 13 points-- and I certainly agree that those additional poin ts 14 are gooo to pass on -- I don' t think it's sufficiently well 10 laid out, and I can't do it, lay out the issues well enough 16 so enat you coulc break i t ou t from integration of the 17 question.
le MR. B I C.Cil f :
Sounds like the tnrust of the ly Cosni ssion's view is to expedite paragraph I of this order.
20 CHAIRMAd AHEARNE:
I'm no t sure what you mean by 21 t ha t.
I'm no t sure what you would then mean by the 22 expeoite.
Expeci te its considerations?
But, yes, I woulc 23 oe in favor of that.
24 COMMISSIOriER KENNEDY:
Together with anything tha t 25 we might 179i 157
Ocv0401 26 AR:or i
MR. BICKWII:
That's right.
And we haven't 2
recommenced on the full oroer, but we strongly recommend 3
that any guidance you can put into that first paragraph 4
above and beyond what you've got, ought to be in there.
6 C0JMI3dIONER GILINSKY:
That isn't something we o
can co here a t the table.
7 COMAISSIONER HENDRIE:
What do you f eel your o
collective capabilities down there in that corner of the 9
table are?
10 (Laugnter.)
11 MR. BICKMIf:
They have produced this.
We can try 12 again.
13 CHAIRJAN AHEARNE:
They are saying they are 14 asymptotic at tnis poin t.
15 COMl4ISSI0dE.; HENDRIE:
I don't know.
Are they 16 really?
If the Board has to take the summary instructions 17 and construc t an examination of management ca pabili ty and le construct a record on it, in addition to dealing with IV specific contentions, the Board is going to have to cefine 20 better wnat the boundarie s are, and wnile I have the utmost 21 regard for the Board, I wouldn't a priori concede tna t a 22 lower level of ingenuity re sides here.
And it might -
you 23 know, if we could sharpen that paragraph 6 in the 2.ugust 9th 24 order a li ttle oi t in the supclementary discussions, then we 25 migne very well find ourselves agreeing on a defined set
\\19\\
\\58
Od90402 29 An sar I
of things, which would provide a good instruction, and if we 2
could, why, then, you know, as you say, it's a tradeof f.
It 3
mignt turn out to have adced six or eight weeks to the whole 4
proc eec ing, to whatever conclusion it ultimately comes to.
5 On the other hand, it mignt turn out to have been o
an enormous time sa ving.
So there is a traceoff, and you 7
kina of grope your way toward deciding which way you think o
the calance is.
But we have sort of an imperf ect vehicle in y
the craft crder at the moment, so that the question is 10 prejudicec.
11 That is, you know, if I'm sort of on balance about 12 whetner to go for the order or not to go for the order in 13 terms of the time saving, I'm tilted towarc, not today, at 14 any rate, because it isn't well enough defined.
15
-CHAIR;4AJ AHEARNE:
I pointeu out November J0th 10 tha t the Commission provice f urther guidance, particularly 17 on the management com pe tence i ssue s.
le COMMISSIONER GILIN5KY :
We ll, le t's do that.
It CHAIRMAH AHEARNE:
Well, you're one of the people 20 I saic tnat to, and I would agree tha t if we can provide 21 as I said, I couldn't come up with any.
Me'11 come around to the offices and 23 c ha t about i t, and see.
24 COMMISSIOJER HENDRIE:
I tnink it would be usef ul.
23 CHAIRi,iAd AHEARN E:
If we can lay out a suf ficient 1791 159
0o90403_.
30 ARaar i
- 1ist, tnen as I tried to say earlier, then I could see it.
2 But unle ss that can be done --
3 COMMISSI0 DER HENDRIE:
I really recommend that you 4
make a visit around tha hall and chat, and pull in those 5
fellows.
6 MR. BIC.< WIT:
Tha t's wha t I meant by way --
7 (Laughter.)
o COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And then go back and think 9
some more about it and see if we can't --
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You're not prepared, at least 11 on the first paragrapn?
12 COMJISSIONE,1 HENORIE:
Well, I think if the larger 13 effort has some chance of success, then I wouldn't care to 1*
just go, you know, wi th paragraph I.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Can you fill me in on the
~
lo s ta tus --
17 COM!.;I5SIONER KENNEDY:
I'm saying the same thing Ic you are.
I am not voting for paragraph I as it now stands.
ly I am voting f or paragra ph I in princi ple wi th, as I 20 suggested, whatever we can additionally add to it in the way 21 of specific guidance.
I am specifically saying I do not 22 agree with paragraph 2.
23 CHAIR.1Ali AHEARJE:
Pihat I'm saying is if the 24 speci fic s in paragraph I can get sufficient, then I would --
25 at the moment 1791 160
Oc90404 31 ARaar i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That's the way I am.
2 COMMISSI0 DER GILINSKY:
To be sufficiently 3
precise.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
That I wish we could 5
ciscuss, because if we get that precise, why is it that we o
would wish to take it up rather than let the Board, whom we 7
have Just given all this de tailed guidance to, go ahead and c
consider it within the limits of that guidance and reach its 9
conclusions?
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That's wha t it says.
It says 11 ask the Board to do i t.
Then paragraph 2 is the partial 12 initial decision.
13 MR. BICKWIT:
That's right, but the point being 14 made is if you minimize the likelihood of the Commission 15 changing signals at a la er stage, you take away one of the lo strongest argumen ts f or paragra ph 2.
17 CHAIRMAd AHEARNE:
The strongest argument that I le see is tne one that if it's going tc require a fundamental IV change in management structure, management structure, not 20 operational staf f -- management struc ture, of a large 21 utility, we can lay out the questions in de tail.
But I 22 woula expect it would be much more usef ul for that issue to 23 be certifieu up to us, er whatever the right term, for a 24 aecision.
But we would nave to lay out those questions 25 clearly enough, and tnat's wnat I f eel tna t we ha ven' t so 179i 161
0o90405-32 Ah' tar i
far.
And I'm skeptical whether we can, but if we can, I 2
would agree that ought co be done.
3 COMMISSIONED HENDRIE:
I think it's worth counsel 4
in OPE taking a cut at it, have a chat around the circle, 5
and take a cut at it, and then let us see if it looks like a o
set that would wash, and then maybe we've got an order.
And 7
if no t, the elaborated set might still do as a paragraph I o
further instruction.
Y CHAIR..iAN AHEARNE:
Where is the hearing process?
10 MR. BICKWIT:
Prehearing conference order was 11 issueo a couple of weeks ago, and discovery is --
12 COMMISSIOJEd HENDRIE:
December 16th.
13 MR. BICKWIT:
-- discovery is now in process, so 14 we are contemplating under our scheoule something in the 15 oroer of 60 days, Io Com.il3SIOJER HENORIE:
We ought to sort of get on 17 witn it.
Ic CHAIR.iAN AHEAdiiE:
So I guess then one week is ly about all that we should really reach a conclusion on it.
20 21 Col.i!.tI SS IONEli HEHDR I E:
I think, you know,i t's not 22 a lif e work.
You take a quick shot at it and we'll see.
23 CHA I R.i AN AH EARd E:
Any other comments?
24 (Whereupon, at 3:12 p.m.,
the mee ting das 2b aojourned.)
1791 162