ML19290A043

Deposition of Util by Mj Ross on 790810 in Middleton,Pa. Pp 1-31

ML19290A043
Person / Time
Site:	Crane
Issue date:	08/10/1979
From:	Rockwell W, Ross M METROPOLITAN EDISON CO., PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE
To:
References
TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 7908290146
Download: ML19290A043 (35)

Text

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THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1[

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3,, The President's Commission 1: On The Accident At Three:

4 4 f,- Mile Island h

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9-DEPOSITION OF

,i 10 MICHAEL J. ROSS I!

11 1, Deposition of Michael J. Ross, produced ~ before 12 [, Eugene A. Hayden, Jr., Notary Public, on Friday, August 10, 13 j 1979 beginning at 1 o'cloek p.m. at Trailer No 10, Three-

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! Mile Island, Middletown, Pennsylvania, Dauphin-County under 3,; ' and by virtue of agreement to take deposition ~ on behalf of 6, The President's Commission on the Accident at Three Mile Island.

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.i 16b.! APPEARANCES:

~

WINTHROP A. ROCKWELL, ESQUIRE II '!

The President's Commission On '

h The Accident At Three Mile Island 18 h 2100 M~ Street, N.W.

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Suite 714

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Washington, D..C.

,20073 O

On behalf of The President's Commission 'On The '

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I Accident At Three Mile Island' 21i T,

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JOHN F. WILSON, ESQUIRE s

22 Metropolitan Edison Company.

h B6i' 5W Reading, Pennsylvania 19640 ~

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For - Metropolitan E son Company 4

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INDEX TO WITNESSES l'

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DIRECT CROSS

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p Michael J. Ross 3

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l' 5 lli INDEX TO EXHIBITS ~

FOR ROSS 6

_IDENTIF7E_D ADMITTED l

' No. 119 a five-paged document 3*

7 entitled Three Mile Island 8

Nuclear Station, GPU Startup Problem Report, GPU No. 4290,

.l TMI Unit Two 9

No. 120 an Eng'ineering Change 27 10 Memo l-1 11 No. 121 being an Engineering 27 Change Memo 12 13 t

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MICHAEL J. ROSS, a witness, produced on call of the s

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-t President's Conmission on the Accident at Three Mile Island,

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l having been previously sworn, was examined and.(tostified Jas '

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DIRECT EXAMINATION.

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6 l BY MR. ROCKWELL-f~

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The record should reflect this is, al continuation

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.t; 8 j of the deposition off Mr. Michael Ross.

Mr. Ross.I~ confess,,

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I don't know the data ~ on which your original' deposition was

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.g l taken, but there is no~ question that it was started earlier',

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11 1,s that right?

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That is correct.

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Okay..At that'tice, we recessed your' depo'aition.

14 f This is a resumption of your deposition pursuant 'to the recess

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15 land'I would remind you that you are still under tha' oath that t-

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16 as administered at that time.

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'A Okay.

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a 18 l (Whereupon Ross Leposition?..

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l Exhibit.No. 119, being a riv y ;

paged document entitled Threef 19..

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1111e Inic a Nuclear Station,. c yod GPU Startup Problem Report,i s

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GPU No. 1;290, TMI Unit Two,,,'x.

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was hereby marked by the

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Reporter.)

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iBY MR. ROCKWELL:

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Q Mr. Ross, I am nhowing' you wiint we have marked s

t l as Ross Deposition Exhibition 119.' - Do you recognis:e the docu-..

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A I would not recognize it.

It has been two years,.c p.,

but I do know of this document.

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3 Okay., _ Do I correctly des'cribo 'it 'as. an exhibitc,,.,_

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4 of five pages consistin_,g

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Consistingofa~coverpagewhicil,ik' entitled, Q

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I "Three ' Mile Island Nuclear Station GPU Startup Problem Report, '.. '

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ll Report No. 2490,"is that correct?

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A Thatis'co$* rect.

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And the second page of the exhibit) E fact, 1,

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1 j the second page and' third and fourth pages of the exhibit are 4 '. -

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d memorandumto Mr. Miller and Mr. Seelinger from Mr. Brummer.'

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! and yourself, although I am not sure that is your signature

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lthere,isthatcorrect?

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That is correct..

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Q And then, the. last page is a diagram?

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Right.

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' Referring the memorandum to'Mr. Jilller and

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'l..y1 Mr'. Seelinger, did you.have a hand in preparing that cecorandum?..'j '

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Yes, I did.

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~Q Did you,. in fact, sign it?.

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A That is'not my signature..'That was~ signed for- - -?

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. Okay.

And who signed for you?.,'

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A That is.'B._J. Marshall,,Bubba Marshall.

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Can you tell me what participation you ha' 'in i t d

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Well, it has been a. long time,' but we had an.

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4 y event in Unit Two' with the plant shutdown, where we had lost.'

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5, secondary condensate flow, At that time we were very concerned I

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6 about it, and we trie'd 'to attack the problem by use of 'an i

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l Instrument Foremen,'Instnament' Station Engineer and' alg;uy like i

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myself, We look.ed at this problem, and from that problem we

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Okay, When'did the loss of condensate flow 10

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-A I don't remember'the date,

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The date on the memorandum is November '14,1977; U

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^A That is correet, it looks like, according to.

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37 occurrence.

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Okay, -Have you ever been famil.farjrith any

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..s 19 ! event similar to.this. occurring.before10ctober 19,.19771in f

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Had you' ever known. of waterlin'the air line '-,,

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A I did not know.. No.

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,Do you know whether anyone had known of.that,

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A I wouldn'.t know that, "

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Okay.*; How did you happen to become involved o

in looking at the inci. dent which occurred on the,19th?5..

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.lA As' I' rdcall. -I' was assigned day shift ' duties 8

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,.s-9:inUnitTwoasan'extrashiftsupervisorj 'And my goal was to s,

10 work out problems and help get Unit Two staffed, as far as -

.,3 11 l, making up the logs, setting up their general office robtines, l

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12 ; training their operations engineers on what.they are supposed j i

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And I was assisting in!

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' Assist ng in this, what do you mean by "this"?

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'A Kind of a ' training period, kind of 'a log

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17liorientation period, trying to'get the' administration and the s], :

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and we were concerned'about it, so we'stak'ted to look into it.

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Q And were you' one of the people who 'did tho'

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.One of the' people, yes,[I'was' assigned,1I think w,-

by Jim Floyd. " Jim would have been the operation _ supervisor 3

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.Was Brummer also assigned to look into.it?

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And how about Marshall?

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• As such, he would be involved, 5, and I can't remember the details.

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Okay, You didn't bring that. - off the record..

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8 BY MR.' ROCKVELL:'

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l So would it be accurate to 'say' that' Mr.,,Brummer (,'

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10 ! and yourself jointly ' looked 1nto the event? '

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An instrumentation for'eman, also.

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Who was that?

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Doug Weaver.

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And he was the' instrumentation foreman'for. Unit' 15.l Two? '

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That is correct.

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.Anyone else' involved in looking,>into it?

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Nobody I cen remember right'o'ff:the top:of my-

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Okay, three of you, as' best'you cin1 recall?

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.Now, did you go to the Basic'Ddta' Recordings-22

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that were made, at the time,, to help ~ nnnlyke what had ' occurred? d 'i 23 E-u

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No.

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A No, there is very little ' record' d o'ther.<th.. -l e

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Okay.

What do the recorders.on the cons l ole,-

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_A Flow.,.,$

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Right.

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Q Through what?

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Through each individual bulge.

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That is on the strip chart?

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Yes.,

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Did you exnmine those strip charts?.

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We didn't retain, them, but I am sure we looked

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And what did you. find?

Did you(. find that. water..cf ::3 Q

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-In a. shutdown: condition' thoro..would only.

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have been one, possibly two on'...o,.I' don,8t thinkEve even say'in

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-Q Okay.

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But what we did was looked at what happened, lt 2

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Did you determine that the, that flow had I,

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'I' don't remember right n'ow.

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Would you be able to go back'.and' find 'that' out?. ' '

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A I think it would be.very difficult boonuse'you i

to lwould have to compare flow charts and dates, and'I don't think 11 ;that would be done very easily.

I am not sure it not in here.I 3-12 /though.

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Q Do you~ recall whether you worked from any,other r

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recorded data or whether you took any notes?

Were there any-14 other materiels that would shed light' on what 'you did at the

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'f timeotherthanExhibit119,whichyouhavebeforeyou?(

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.A, I am rsure there were notes, but. I am also, sure 17 I

that they weren't retained.

I think we compiled our. notes.

18

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did and Drummer /the compiling for us.

He is the~ instrumentation jf: q 39 eng e r, and from that, actually,- Brummer wrote the memo,.

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, He did? '

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Yes, he actually did the writing.

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.Q Did you review the memo before it was put in 23 l.

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I final form?

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Did you concur with what he wrote?

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Yes, sir, 3 )l.

Q Why woul'd' Marshall have. signed off in'the placo 1

4l for your namei i,',

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Probably because I wasn't in Unit'Two:that, day, else

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I don' t remember. the ' details,.

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Now, have you,'ha,d a chance',to reYiew this memo i

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8 in its entirety, recently?

If.you haven't, I, would'1Ske you tltotakethetimetoreadit'frombeginningto.end,soyou'havej 9

l it fresh in your mind for purposes of going through it?~

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I have reviewed it briefly Ihis morning.:

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Q Why don't you take time now, as much as you.

12 13 need, to read through it so that it'is fresh in.your mind?.

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.c 15 BY MR.,ROCKWELL:

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l-Q Have you had'a chance now,-Mr. Ross, to review 16

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the memorandum?

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'A Yes.

yg Directing your attention to the} second"paragrapig O

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f the memorandum, on the first page;of 1!he mbmorandsm,,

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j specifically the second sentence of that paragrnph, quoting, yi Shortly thereafter the. discharge. valves on the condensate

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231, polishers closed resulting 'in a" total loss of'feedwater 5

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s Were you able to tell the discharge valves had 3 25 IL _.__.

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d closed, from your strip charts?

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I think we ware able to tell,mostly by the.

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-Q So you had to n'acume from that, that is, dis-p 6] charge valves had closed?

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Do you usd the word

" valves"in the plural?,-

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Yes, in' the case there h>robably were.'two ' ;<..,.

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12 [ Control Room Operator immediately tried to ~ open,CO-V12," that j

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That is correct.

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".However, he was' unable to open this valve from'.

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Well, either they"had:too much DV across.it,;

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When we say unable to 4

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_ It has a remote' control for. thin'in the:back' panel 1

respond.

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By DV', you mean Delta".V7 '

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Which is essentially the pressure drop across

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-'A,,'Well,'our. answer, at that. time,.,was.to.gonerate,;

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3 l to generate a field ~ questionnaire, ~ which is this,' We,c,all it.

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Now, what you Just reforred to~.,asi thin' -,

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,A That is the startup problem' report,; o.

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Q Which is the first page of Exhibit' 119,~ yorrect?.

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Yes.

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Q Okay.

Well, now,that you havo mentioned that, 3,I i

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d which came first, the field questionnaire 'or. the memora.ndum?

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A 1G I think the memorandum and the. field questionnairef 1

came the same time.

It'was written on 1.1/:.,..13,.the memoran,dum~

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Q Okay.

Why would'you generate,.would the..

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giving 'a more ' fuller explanationh.

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.Yes.

As~ I recal1[.the memorandum.was 'to supj> ort - '

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i the field questionnair'e, also to).documerit'for-dur. engineering-23 C

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'superirisor, our problem w+e were... .

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-A Was your engineerin,' super. visor. Mr. Toole?

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7...

I A

Mr. Toole was thh startup,'the title isn't C,

correct, he was The' Manager of Startup Test fb _GPU.

2 i

s. r.

a l

3 i

Q Eut you just referred to your engineering i

.+

q..'

g 4" cupervisor, who is that?

=.'

l

),

5 i

A In this case' it' would'have been ' Jim' Se'elinger,

~

r 6 l he_ was one of the people that the letter was addreised tor,.

4

.h

.a..

7 Q

'Now,'let's go back'to the'.secozid. paragra'ph, on

c. ~,

r.-

2 ; ',.,.

..c,

- x I the first page of the November 14tli mem.orandur..

It goes on f

l'. i w,.

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t..

9 quoting, "The auxiliary operator.was then botified to hanuall'y.. '

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10' open CO-V12, after about five to ten c i.nutes, and assisted by ;',

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L

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11., another Auxiliary Operator CO-V12 was ' opened."

i

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t 12 j

Did you determine, was there difficulty in-

. (.

j 13 ' opening'that valve manu'lly?

i

'I ',',5 a

v 1

I 14 A

Th'e CO-V1.2 is a difficult valve to operhte.

Itl ',' '

' is located in the. after head, and it is a huge valire. ' As.a',.

15 result, it is physically hard.to operate.,:So.I.would say it '

16

, is, yes, 'He had some difficulty, that is why it took so long...

17

.,j.y l

s 18 Q

Did yoti interview the auxiliary operator that

,i, 4

, i

.19]iwas on duty there in order tS-get his version of what had

[,vb phappened?

'f.,

v.

l '.,,.,. -

2d I don't recall whether we '.did 'or. '.

A-

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.not, It is.a.

t +?

., n'.

long time.

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22

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Q 3

And then=your lastJsentence,1on'.'t. he' second

.].,y

,,.:.;., m......i,., _

i

.o z-

~4j, paragraph is, nIf this would haveLhappene'd while.at power, N'

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m.

5

., g the unit would have been placed in a severe' transient' condition

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Roos'- Direet 14 j resulting in an Emerdency Foeduater Actuation, P.ain Steam I

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, Relief to, Atmosphere, Tu$bine Trip and Reactor Runb'ack wh.thh, I,

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.' c 3 : possible trip,"

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4 4I That would simply be as a result 'of the lossS.

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5 of all condensate fl'oVl; h

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., 2, 7,

y 6[

A That is correct, y,

i j

Andwasityourconclusion,ina,alyzinkthis*

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.h

~~'

8 1 event that apparently ! occurred on. October 19th,.1977,. that.

e p

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9 j had the reactor been It power, all' of the discharge va'1vos

",,..jo 10 ; on all seven polishers, which are normally in operation, would'.

i j!

'[

j3jprobablyhavebeenclosed?

3 i

l.

A We never could make that conclusion very firmly..

12 s

i

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13 j But it was our opinion that it was very very possible, hence, 14y that is why we wrote this way.'

. Ei. * '

d 15q

'Q What in the mechanism, as.you understood it at p

~

You have 'got 16)[thattime,bywhichthe~dischargevalvesclose?.

-. j,..

• water in the air line, right, and then at_ come, point' the valvets I

3,<i

+

i

..t close.

Is there a connection between'theftwo,~and if..yes,,.

3 g,;

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what is the connection?'

19

.q

.I don't think we were ever totally sure,what thei. a.

.A

.f

.0 i

3 connection was.

I think we felt, at the. time,.the connection 21 g

.y p

was mainly'in the Delta, or in;the controllers,,what. water f

22

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s.

y..

would.do to'them internally and causef'.the air to,. ei.ther. pour-e,3 23

.. ;,o

.-n.

..,.,g,

to the. valve in the,cl.osinu direction,.'or.in the opening n

24

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' direction, we~ felt'the~ air did something internally to'the.

25 7

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~ controllers, and blocked the ports, making the thing think',.,,',e I

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2 ) it actually had a closed signal to it, 3

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i

. Now, the port yo,u are r;eferring to, yhat., twas,.-

-Q 3

l Q

1

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4f A'

'I'he valire has ali'~ supplies to 'oither side';'

i Something tells it wha' ' aide t5 put air, to either'open#ed' 6re 5-t 6

closed.-

We felt that the mechanism for making 'them clob'e.vas i

5 1

.k 7 ! in that circuit comeplace.

We were never able to nail'iti: s

'ex V

l

";,' ' dlc..

'e 8 l down, totally,-

'r r.

s.

I

- r Q

Did you call in Burns and Roe at ' nytime. to .

9 a

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.;.f

~

10 help you analyze this?.

..y ~.

j,,,

A I did not.

a-11

+ i.

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i 12 ]

Q

Okay, How about'the Los Angeles Water Treatment l

13;j Company, or~a company that has a name very similar to that,.

i

.I which supplied and designed at least part of the~dystem?.

14 s.

{

15 l' A

I did not.

- ?.,'

5' i,

c.

3h Q

Okay. How about Mr. Brummer, do you know a

6

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fr 17 whether he consulted either with. the LA~ Water Treatment Company.,',A i

t

.a

'~

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gg ' or Eurns and Roe?

6

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A No, I am not sure that hedid.-

I do not'know..

19 l

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.,y u.

Q' Okay.

I am ust'looking at the third' paragraph 20 f,,,.

and you indicate that you, in fact, did discuss.,the problem

.}. ]

y 1

,s c.

'with the operators.

Is the answer to~my, question yes?: :;,,

.A Yes.

1D

.. +

(

^,

24 And' you indicate there,,Doug Weaver was;c..oncerned Q

25h that it was ~ an instrument probledi which induced.this cond'ition n

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Ross - Direct.

16 l.

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! Is an instrument problem different than what you described.to.i 2 !! me?

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3

. A.

Ilo,

i, 4

Q' That is just, the same thing?

i 3

A Right.

, e I

6 Q

When the people didmantled the cystem,.do you

7. ; know whether they had any assiat.ance in dismantling it, and;

inspecting it, from anyone outside of Metropolitan Edison?,.

8 l,

9 A'

I do not know.

lo Q

lWere you present at the time the system was' I1 dismantled?

12 A

I was not.

n 13 [I Q

Then going to Page'2 of the memorandum, y'ou 4

14 ' indicate that the, that basically the analysis does in'the:

i course of dismantling and inepects..g the system did~ not jive '

15 l a clear answer as to' how the phenomenon had occurred, is that g

i i

17 i right?-

l i

jg A

That is(correct.

C, 19 Q-And that ~you indicated you' thought the best d' -

way to try'to analyze it was.to try'to duplicate'.~,the' incident, 20 o

is that' correct?

21

+;.

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22 Well -,

+

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Q To re-enact this occurrence in a controlled 23 e 1

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.v.

ijfashion?

1 A

Yet f

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Q Do you know whether that was ever done?

(

2 A

I do not, 6*

3)

Q Okay.

And the'n you have a list'of rec'ommen.,

0 c

4j! dations that follow thereafter of nine recommendations..

Do i

you know whether those recommendations ~ were implement $d?

~'

5 f

i 6[

A I do not know that.

~

s 7

i 0

Okay.

They were not implemented by you?l i

S I

A No.

'I was transferred shortly thereafterk l

9 l Q

Okay.

How about Mr. Brummer, do you know.~

[

10 ; whether they were implemented by'Mr. Brummer?

i

( -

e 11 )i A

I do not know.

i 12 Q

Okay.

Your November 11th memorandum was 4

1 13 directed to Mr. Miller and Mr. Seelinger.

Did you talk with j

(

h 14 either of those men, either before this memorandum was written',

15 : at the time it was delivered to them, or after they had a 16 chance to read it?

j,

}

77 ]

A I think both, at least with Jim Seelinger.

Okay, both beforel-D Q

18 19 A

And after.

i f

-Q Okay.

Do you remember the substance of'your 20 t

conversation with Seelinger?

g i

.s A

No, just that we were concerned' about this 22

,, j particular item,, and we felt that the GPU -startup report ought' n

t:

3 24 ]. to go on through to GPU, the Problem Report. '

j

.j.

s Q

25d At the time Mr. Seelinger was the,; was he what,!

il u _. __

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' Director of Technical Support for Unit Two?

1 I

p 2,1 A

Technical Support.

l a-Q For Unit Two?

3 h,

]'h 4l A

Right,

- t

}

(-

5 Q

Were you~ working ~under Mr. Seelinger at~that i

6 ' time?

i j

A Iwasworking'fortheOperationsDepartment[

-.L

, which is kind of a, I was working for the Operations Depart-.,

3 j ment, which is parallel _ to the Engineering Department.- But, 9

' for engin ering ntacts, he would be our guide, he was the 10

! head engineer.

o i

12j; Did Mr. Seelinger play any role in' the analysis l f'

Q s'

r r a hing the recommendation that you have listed at the 13 q

( )

c end of your memorandum?

Was he, for instance, a spiing board 14 which you bounced your thoughts off in reaching this memoranduin?

15 i

t J

A 16 [

I don't think so.

I thin}' he received the bmemo, he was involved, but I don't feel that be was involved 17 i

1

in the write up itself.

18 i

o-r Q

Okay.

And your. recollection of conversations 19 4

with him after the memorandum was sent to him,'is(that he y

20.'

7 l simply said this should go up the line to GPU?_

21

'[

221]:

Yes, he submitted it on up, is what-I got from A

i

.1.-

e, J,.

ymyconversationswithhim.

23 l

~

4' y;

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Okay.

And he was'the one to move it up the j. _.

24]une.

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1l A

Yes, he would have been.

k.

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2l Q

Did you ever talk with Mr. Miller?

l 1

3,'l A

About.this item?-

(i 4J' O

Yes.

s I

5 A

No.

4

.i.,

6, Q

Now, the problem descriptiori that appears' on the face of the GPU Startup Problem Report, which is 'the fli'st 7-1 page of the exhibit, appears to have been written.by John 1

~[

8 j

e.

9 l! Brummer, Do I interpret the form correctly?

f 10 )

A That is right, he signed it, i '.

6-j

{

i.

13 i,

Q I!

Take a moment, would you, and read the Problem 1

12 l Description that Mr. Bnimmer wrote up in 1cag hand on the ',

l h

13, TPU Startup Problem Report?

i

.[s) 34 j A

Sure.

o 15 (Responding.)

i 16 THE WITNESS:

Yes.

I read it.

[l I

I_<f BY MR. ROCKWELL:

by

- s..

l Q

Okay.

Does that reflect the substance of. the' 18 i

1 problem that was identified in the underlying three-paged

,9 i'.

l 4

n

] typed memorandum, which is also part of this ~ exhibit?

]

\\

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i A'

21' It'does, and it doesn't.

The majo.r problem i

i 22,;lwas that they had lost feedwater flow, and' the fix that he 23 (J proposed there would have, no matter what would have happened, f) 24lithe polisher valves would have solved that problem.

1' Q

Okay.

Let's address that for the moment., The :

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Ross Direct 20 li

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fix he is proposing is what?

i

(

2l A

. Basically, an automatically opening CO-V12 l

3i valve on DV.

4 j, Q

Okay.

Now, the loss of condencate flow l

5'1 resulted from a loss of suction pressure on the feedwater i

6

'! booster pump, is that correct?

7 A

They may or may not even have had a booster i

3 sump pump running at the t.{na it resulted.

The fact that the 9

path of flow was through the polishers, with no alternate, t

10 all the flow had to go through the polishers,'and the polisher','

I1 valves, when shut, there were no flow.

12 ;

O But the tripping of the system, if you had, a i

f.

i 13 system at power, the turbine would trip off on a signal from

?

[';

14

• the booster?

15 A

That is correct.

Q Loss of suction?

g t

g A

You would lose the booster pumps, which in.

l turn would make you lose the feed pump, and the turbine would'

~

33 39 sense a loss of feed pump and trip itself.

1 I

Q Okay.

Now, if you were concerned about. ch' eating 1

,l

.O

_1 ;f a by-pass around the polishers, in the event offn sudden 4

e l.

-m, closing of the discharge valves simultaneously on~all the

! polishers, what kind of a signal would you use.to ; actuate an '

23 D tomatic by-pass CO-V127 e

au 24 1

i A

25 [y Delta V, differential pressure across'the beds.,

(}

I i

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~ MJN 8 ${

190 266~

Ross.._ Direct _.. _ _ _... _ _

21

!(]

Q Okay.

And would that be essentially the'same,cr l as tha loss of suction at the feedwater booster pumps?,

2 i

3[{j A

Yes, you would. nonse a difference of pressure,'

v c

. c' 4

you would have 200 pounds at the inlet zones.

When the.C y

,I,.

5 pressure started dropping at the outlet, it would open the d

6 valve by-passing it, 7

7 Q

Okay.

How long would you have for the puaps,

..i.,. '

8l how long would you have for, a valve to open to create a' 9 i by-pass flow path?

,i i

i A

That, I don't know.

It would be in the_ range 10 g

11

,of seconds.

~

j 12 g i G

Did you look into that at the time of this?i lj 13 i

A No.

This was the reason for the Problemi

'l 3

14 '

Report.

i

.3.

Q Okay.

As far as you know, is it possible 'that g

c' r

16 j it could be as little as a half' a second?.

l.

!i 17,jl A

I would think that would be a very short. time I

18 Period.

s

,l 19 Q

Okay.

l l

A I don't think the valves and.the polishers i

'. 2

,g n

k Jcouldrespondthatfast.

,~3, Q

Respond'how fast?

l

{

i A

In a half a'second, to' shut..

j 23l

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I see.1 You don't think the pressure.dzup would Q

24!

! occur that quickly?

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l 10 A

No.

2l Q

Okay.

We were talking, before we went off on 3i this side track, about the fact that Mr. Brummer's summary,'

.']

.y.

I..in some way, did reflect, and in some ways did not reflect D.

4 ii

,S the substance of the underlying memorandum, and indicated that'

!; he focused on the basic concern about. handling or ' maintaining

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t.

7.i:

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3 'l A

Correct.

g:, y jl l

i Q

What of the underlying memorandum does be not 9

i s

address in the Problem Description?

ig 1

A I don't think he, the problem, the underlying.

11 [,

q mem ddresses everything.

But I' don't think he addressed, 12 n

13 ll in the Startup Problem Report, the water in the air lines.

.( \\

n i

Q Okay.

14 l 0

15 q A

He was more looking at getting a flow path, h

hnomatterwhatwouldhappentotheairlines.

He felt that s

16i, I

ijwasmoreimportant.

17 h l'

Q 18 b Alon6 about this time period of November of s

}.

19.l1977, did you know Mr. R. J. Toole?

1 i

j A

Yes, I did.

20 j

.d.

l Q

He was the head or director of the GPU Startup 21 l1 t

Team?

'.1 22l

~

A Yes.

I think his title was Manager of Testing.

73 l

MR. ROC 101 ELL:

Off the rec'ord.

. '1M2' 26&

24 !:

f (Colloquy off the record [Q)'^TY[.(c'l q'

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.__. _. Ro s s -, Dire c.t. _ _ _. _ _ _ _______. _ _ _ _

._ 23

I i

I3 BY MR. ROCKWELL:

1 s.

I 2h Q

Now, apparently looking at the GFU Startup.

3 Problem Report, Mr. Toole disposed of the Startup Prob 1'em 4 ( Report without referring it to Eurns and Roe.

~

Does that i

5 appear to be accurate?

O p

6 il A

It' appears that he may have ca? led them.

Thero'

-1, 7 l;! is a number of things he may have done in that thing' there.

p c.

8!

~Q Okay.

Does it show that in fact.he referred.

t 9l these Sta' rtup Problem Report itself to comeone else.fo

~

10 resolution?

~

e-11 i

A It looks like he referred it to him.

t 12 Q

To whom?

T

, f 'i 13 h A

It looks like he referred it to himself.

a j.;

O And then he indicated, "No further action j,

15 required"?

b o

16 l A

Uh-huh.

l IT Q

And now, he indicates in his second, what

! appears to be his second written note on the Problem Report, 13 19 l' that if the problem is better defined, that' they.;would be ~in 20,a Position to resolve it.

Do you understand 'what he means by.

l

6 '

that?

What about, "This is not well defined"?

g A

I don't, understand what he ' meant.

-Q Okay.

Have you ever talked with Th.' Toole.

_3j lI e

j about this incident, 'or about your analysis of it??

F9.02 2 69 A

No, I have not.

L_____

_.,...,,....,....e

,,im.,mo."o

~.n."."">

Ross - Direct 21.4 1

l Q

Okay; Do you know uhather Mr. Brummer ever did?

I-A I do not know, C

2 Q

In the first, what appears to be the first 3

e r fers to @e pondMy an en n y

4 5 l that water in the, air line may have been a result.of a flood l

f which apparently occurred 'aere at the island, at some point 6

lprevioustothat.

Lb you have any view of that, as'an answer, 7,

r an explane.cion for what'you saw?

8 9-f A

No.

I don't have any view on.that.

O Okay.

Is it possible that that would have been 10 l

l the reason for the water?

11 A

Sure.

12 j,t Q

Do you know whether there was ever an unexpected 13

{

(3' closing of the discharge valves'for the polishers after.

14 l' October 19, 1977, and before March 28, 19797 15 !

I A

.~. do not know.

16 Q

Ckay.

If you wanted to know the answer to.

17 that question, where would you go to look in the record 18 J '.

keeping system maintained here? '

39 A

It is hard.

I would say either in the PORC

-k 20 minutes.

Perhaps if th'ay had a similar transient, I am sure

~

21 it would have^been some mention of the fact they analyzed it

~

22 in there, or possibly in the record of Jim Floyd, who was 23 the Operations Supervisor.

24

~Q Now, have you discussed this October 19, 1977

,,,,.'m.......M aJD *

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1 25

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Ross - Direct 25 r--------------------

lj 1

i incident at all with anyone since the accident of the 28th of d

2 March, 1979?

3 A

Mo,

+

4 0

Okay, Having had a chance to review the, 5

cummary of this October 19th, '77 occur'rence, do you see any.

1 6

uimilarities between it and what occurred on the P_8th of.

r.

7 5 March here?

.l 8

A I think that there could be a' similarity.

9 Q

Okay.

To what extent?

I 10 i

A

.To.the extent that something happened to cause a loss of feedwater flow, and it appears to have been revolving

)j i

lgroundthepolishers.

I am sure someone has the end results 12 13 of that.

I do not, V

.y]

i 34 Q

Have you analyzed the sequence of events with I

15 ! r spect to those eventa which may have occurred early in' tho' s

16 sequence, in the condensate polishing system?

I A.

I.have not.

37 l

Q Are you aware that. there appears to 'have been-jg v ter drained out of the n$r line condensate ~ polishing system?

19 A

I heard that..

'O e

~

j y

Q

Okay, Do you know of anhone here at Met-Ed or at GPU who may have done an analysis of the FIrch 28th event 22

~

in light of the October' 19th,1977 even't, or 'vice. versa? '

23 1

A I do not.

pjd2 2R 1

24 Q

25 And to. the best of your understanding, you knov 1,4 5

a il

Ross - Direct 26 I

Hl of no other incidents in the condensate polishing system that l are similar to this, either before October 19, 1977, from the

,e 2

3 ( 19th of October,1977 to the 28th of March,19797 A

I know of none that revolved aromid the l

E 5

l Q

All right, or wate'r in the air lines in the 6

y polishers?

A No.

8 I

Q Or an unexpected closure of the discharge 9

valves of the polishers?

10 i

A No.

11 l Q

There were a couple of modifications done to 1 2

(~

the condensate polishing system along the wcy, and apparently

one was in 1977.

And I am not sure what the date of the other 14 !

!onewas.

Do you know anything about the modifications that 15 l

were done on the condensate polisher system?-

i 16 l

.,)

A

.I am sure if I.would see it I would'know what

!'i le they were, but I don't know..

There was.a resin problem with

-4 18 movements of resins at that time.

I think'that was what 19 O

lprobablywhatthoseare.

Without seeing them, I wouldn't

.~

20 I

lggny,

'..a l

21 O

Yes.

Why don't:you take a loold Jet them and 22 i see if.you recognize them.

'l'~

-' g.g ))

23 (Responding. ) '

24 1 1

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

One wag..

fluffing liz;e-5 u

Jg L

,,,..m......<.

.....,,.m.,..,,,,,-

Ross - Direct 27 I

l v'

I i for the renins inside the polishers to make sure the transfer l'was done smoother and more correct, The other one was kx)

I' 2

3 f provido an increased flow of sluice water, and was again S

4 [~ aimed at increasing the ability to move resins without any 5 i problems, 1

6, BY PR. ROClWELL:

I T

i Q

Can you tell from,theso documents, vell,.let.

me ask you, first, do you recognize the documeSts, have ~you.

8

{

seen them before?

9 i

10 A

I have seen them before, I don't deal withI l

I1

them everyday.

That is nonna11y a GPU Startup Document that 12 l 'they use, O

Okay.

Why don't we mark them so that we have.!

i 13 i

14 them accurately identified?

(Whereupon Ross Deposition 3,

Exhibit 120, being an engin-eering dange memo, n s 16 hereby marked by the reporter.)

17 l

I

~(Whereupon'Ross Deposition Exhibit 121, being an engin-ig eering change memo, was hereby marked by the reporter.)

4.

19 i

'T BY MR. ROCKWELL:

J O

s 3

Q Mr. Ross, ve:.have marked as Ross Deposition 22 Exhibits 120 and 121, two documents which appare'ntly relate

~

to modifications in the condensate feedw rsy[te'morthe 23 24

. condensate polishing system.

I am not'even sure what.these 2S documents should be' called.

Is the're.a correct. term?

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Ross - Direct 28 i

i j

A Engineering Change IIcmo, I think, is the most "

1

./_

l 2

correct term, 3

0 Okay.

And with respect to Exhiliit'121, does 1

21,-1977?

4 l the date appear to be February l

A One of the datos, Burns and Roe's signature 5

i 6

is on February 21, 1977.

i 7

l Q

Okay.

And Exhibit 12.0 relates to. what. codifi-9.<

I 8 j cation in the condensato polishing cystem?

l A

It was an additional source of sluice vator, 9

4 I

i to increase the amount of sluice water to th'a conckensate '

10 i

l'plishers, 11 s

I' 12 Q

And what would be the reason for doing that?

, (' ';

33 i h' hat benefit is that to create? :

A It would give them a better case of coving 34 1

I resins out of the polishers.

In this type of. system, to la-reg nerate it, you actually have to transfer the resin 'out of 16

~

the tank. it is in to a regeneration tank, and then you regenerate

7 it.

Upon completion, you transfer the resin back into the s

3g l vessel to put it back in service..

39 Q

And the addition' of sluice water just makes the

-20 transfer easier?

21 A

Yes, in my opinion, what we were'trying to do, was. to get an increased' amount of water,. increased flow to j

. g {M..

3 make this transfer easier.

Q AndreferringyounowtoDepositionExhibity 25 D

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9

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n. m...u,.

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Ross - Direct 29

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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~,

g Burns and Roe appears to have signed off on that one also on

!1 p February 21, 1977.

2 ll 4.

F h

A That is correct,

, I; l

Q Can you see a date for the creation of'the I

4?

)

i y document?

5 1 A

Again, I don't nonna11y deal with this type

(,

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l of document.

So I will.look here, I oco no creati.on date.

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Okay,[ And what is the subject addressed by l

Q s

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Deposition Exhibit 121, which also, am I correct, is'sn 1

I 1

9 j! Engineering Change Memo?

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!l A

That is correct.

For the purpose of.that was 11

i' to add a pennanent service air connection to the bottom of U

1~ " each polisher so that they could fluff the resins prior to

~

1 13 lie trying to sluice them, or transfer them, the resins, i

Q In the analysis which you did of the October g.

l ' 'il 19th incident, in which the discharge valves in the polisher; I I' closed, did you_ try to do any analysis of where w ter would

~

17 have come into the system other-than as a result of the flood 18'lwhichhadoccurredatsometimepriortothat?

19!

A Yes, we.did.

We tried to determine'how the

~

20 { water got into the air lines.

.i i

~

l l.

21 Q

Did you trace any paths which the water might 22,lI have taken through, for instance, hypothetical failures of i

23 -lcheck valves?

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Yes, we did.

.And it is a.little vague, I mean -

25 b

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Ro s s - Dire c t_._ _.__._ _.._ _. _ _ _.._---.30 y,.

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I a couple years old, Part of the recommendation, I think, was

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' to inspect a couple check valves, s s t:

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To see whether they may have been pensing ',,y ';

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Yes,

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Q Have you heard of this prior

' October.'.19f l[i

+

7,1977 incident being the subjr ct' of inquiry or ~analyala 'at.dll

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b

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8 I since the accident on ifarch 28, 19797 3'.'i ;,.,.,.

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9 A

I have not.

w s.

10 Q

You have", not heard of that from any source?

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11 l,

A No.

i j

i 12 !'

Q Is this the. first time you'wero' rreinded of.'

3.-

. I 13 l the earlier incident since the accident on,'the 26th?

l

. +.

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A In the previous deposition.they as,k'od if I had j '

14 1

i 15 l over filled out a questionnaire on CO-V12, and~ that is how we

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• ;f 16i: got to here..

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.Okay.

And that',is, your previous depo'. ition.

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17

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33.! was for the President,1'al Commission, is that.' correct??',

fi,4,

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Yes, that is correct.

.3.' 7"3.j,v.," A$..h., <., -

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19[;

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., o But you.have not addressed'.tho.,x>-subjectiin'any

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. 21p ther way?'

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-.,.y A-I ha'vejnot., In', fact, I.have:.been on' vacation-o

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E'? $.@' ;, : M., 9.,

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' F-for the last weeks

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Is Mr. Brum er stin with Metropolitan Edison?

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A Yes, sir, he in.

1

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And what position does he hold? '

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p:

n,. _. r.i..

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l 4

A.

Ho, holds'the I and C Engineer, Innthimontation

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,,. i P and Control Engincor, i

'4

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Q Hoy about Mr., Toole, is he' still'vith G{U?.'

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l A

He la presently employed by a GPU subsidiary,

.y 3

8 i

, _2 Pennsylvania Electric, as a superintendent in the Homer. City 9

1

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.r i Station.

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h 9

4 10

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That is a fossil plant?

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11 i

Y A

That is correct.

12 l k

i Q

All right, that la all I have,.Mr. Ross,..I.-

J.

13 q

l appreciate your coming back to talk to us about this.

Thank i

1-11

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f

,e you.

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Okay..

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' (Whereupon the hearingidjourned at 1 $38 o' clock p.m.').

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Michael J7.'Ross i

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' Subscribed and sworn.to

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'p; 20

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before me thit day.

'? N). r. f ?~',?

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71 a,

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of 19.79, b'? l-

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,. u n Notary Public

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eso egat es a s a u sse a t. set.

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I horchy cat-tify that the forceoing in a tima 2 i and correct tram:cript of my stenotypo notes takan by no 3

duri2KI tho hcaring on the abovo enuco, at the horain 4

indicated tima and place, tofora Tha President'a Coiciocion 5

On The f.ccident At Thrco Mile Island, i

6 7

8 9

MOIREf.CH & M/.REFJ.L, D:C.

l

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11

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7

- BY k O ( t t (

b bei f bli l~

1, EUGE:iE A. HAYDIRT, --JR., CER,CP,CIf

~

/

E,ISTatED Pit 0FSSSIO!iAL REPOllTEit 13

[/ '

14 DAT tt a O,R M I

15

\\

REPORTEL DY:

t EUGENE A. IIAYDEN, JR.

I brbach & Marshal, Inc.

18 27 North Lockv111ov Avenue Harrinburg, Pennsylvania 17112 19 20 21 22 f\\

h 24 1902 278 25

,,. < x.. m o......

.....s.......,,,,,

L

I Ross 115 Ga14 2

A Through Lee Rogers or through our Engineering

~

3 Departnent, through Reading.

4

~

Q So you would not have direct contact?

5 A

I would not normally call nr.w, not in the normal

.e 6

manner.

.:s 7

Q Have there been instances where you have?

8 A

I have called ~directly for some refueling 9

information or something.

I have done that, but it 10 has been infrequent.

11 Q

Have those been the only circumstances 12 that you would have contacted B r. W directly concerning 13 refueling?

14 A

That would have been about the only ones.

15 g

who would you contact there concerning

4. j 16 refueling?

17 A

Mainly refueling equipment.

They. have changed 18 a lot down there.

I would have contacted like Scott 19 Dam.

That was like years ago.

He was the project 20 engineer for this thing.

21 (The deposition was adjourned at 6:30 p.m.)

99

}. l/ "-

r

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~~

---

X ~--- ysQc y ! ' Kp Subscribed and sworn to

---

C--

23 thisjINday Michael J.

Ross before me A --

2

^

1902.279 25 rep

_.m_

Notary dblic hq GEORGE J. TROTFER B ENJ AMIN REPORTING S ERVIC E non. ; eme, a:aeng. a.;a c:.

I.'./ Cc.Tn.x On lLgim Jr.:i i!. n;2 -

150 1

Ross 2

!!S. G OI.D P P. A li K :

Okay.

At this time, I 2

3 would like to recess this deposition.

I 4

don't anticipate that we will call you back

(

5 for further questioning, but it is possible "d

6 that we will have further questions.

7 (The deposition concluded at 10:45 a.m.)

8 9

1. ,6 c lL:a6../yj (lLSVa

/

io M I CII AEL J.

RbSS 11 12 Subscribed and sworn to i

this IS A day 13 before ne ha.c.

1979.

14 of V

15 16

/

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____k__ A__ __. ____

O 17 flotar Public ac m.u.,w y-W-,,'c;:c, n.p+ -.

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' ' ' :. *;". b,' r,,,

19 20 21 ta 22 1902.280 23 24 25 BENJAMIN REPORTING SERVICE

(

PRESIDENT'S CO.'Df f SSION ON TiiE ACCIDENT AT TilREE MILE ISLAND Corroctions to July 31, 1979, Deposition of Michael J.

Ross Page Line Ch_ange To Read 4j;1,.i;.

/.

(,

' ) ' be. ! sLL

'; Z _

Michael J. Ross Subscribed and sworn to before me titisl3 day 902 MI of M 1979

& cngs Notfry [iiblic /){

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