ML19274G067
| ML19274G067 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 05/31/1979 |
| From: | Mudge J METROPOLITAN EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7908290371 | |
| Download: ML19274G067 (34) | |
Text
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1
In the Matter of:
2!
IE TMI INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW i
3 of 4}
Dr. James E. Mudge j
Supervisor, Radiation Safety and Environmental Engineering Si 6i 7l 8'
Trailer #203 91 NRC Investigation Site TMI Nuclear Power Plant 10t Middletown, Pennsylvania l
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Mav 31. 1979 12l (Date of Interview) 13 Julv 6, 1979 (Date Transcript Typed) 141 15l 288 (Tape Numoer(s))
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yoPL9 037 /
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19f 20 l
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NRC PERSONNEL:
221 I
Robert Marsh, Investigator 23!
Thomas H. Essig, Chief, ESSP 24i f
Anthony N. Fasano, Inspection Specialist asi 2000 037 i
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11 MARSH:
The date is lay 31, 1979.
Tha time is 10:08 a.m.
This is Bob 2
Marsh.
I'm an Investigator fer ths v.
5 uclear Regulatory Commission 31 i
assigned to Reg'on III, Chi igo, Illinois and this morning we are at 4
the facilities rf Metropoli'. cdison' located at 2803 Pottsville Pike 5
in Raading, Pa.
The purpose this morning for being here is to c6nduct 61 interviews with Metropolitan Edison personnel and at this time we have 7
with us Dr. James E. Mudge, who is the superviscr for Radiation Safety 8
and Environmental Engineering for Met Ed.
We have several others in 9
the room and at this time I would like to do what we've done with the 0
other tapes and have each individual state their name, spell their last 11 name and identify their position.
Dr. Mudge, if we could start with 12l you.
13 14 MUDGE:
My name is Dr. James E. Mudge, I'm the Supervisor of Radiation 15!
Safety and Environmental Engineering.
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17 LEFIN:
Rudolph R. Lefin, Supervisor for Mechanical and System Engineering.
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ESSIG:
Thomas H. Essig, Chief, Environmental and Special Projects 20j Section, NRC, Region III.
21 22 FASANO:
Anthony N. Fasano, Inspection Specialist, NRC, out of Region i
23 I.
24 25{
j 2000 038
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l MARSH:
Thank you.
Dr. Mudge, I think you expressed a desire to be 2
referred to as Jim so I'll pick up with that if I may.
Si t
a!l
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MUDGE:
Please.
S' 6
l MARSH:
Jim, before we started the tape we had a short discussion 7
involving this two page memo which I have in front of me.
I do want to 8'
l discuss this just briefly on tape without going into any great detail 9l1 but as I stated this memo covers the purpose of'the investigation, its 10 scope, its authority and goes to some degree into the rights of the 11 person being interviewed.
Including your right if you so desire to 12 have an individual from the company present and it's my understanding 13 that is Mr. Lefin's position at this time, that he is the company 14 representative.
On the second page of this memo are several questions t
15 which I would like to get your response to just to make it a matter of 16f record on the tape also, and these questions read (1) Do you understand 17 the above making reference to this two page memo?
18j 19i MUDGE:
Yes.
20l 21f MARSH:
Second one.
Do we have your permission to tape this interview?
I 22l 23 MUDGE:
Yes.
24,
?000 n39 25!
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i MARSH:
And thirdly, would you like a copy of the tape and transcript?
2 i, 31 j
MUDGE:
Yes, sir.
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~9 M'RSH:
We will get you a copy of the tape.
It may take a day or two A
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to get it duplicated and then I'll get to back down to you.
To begin 7
with at this time then if you would, Jim, could you give us a brief 8
synopsis of your education and backgorund and the description of your 9
duties and history with Met Ed.
i 10 11 MUDGE:
Educational background.
I have a bachelor of science in biological 12 sciences from Mansfield State College.
I received that in 1967, located I
13 in Mansfield, Pennsylvania I taught high school biology for a year in 14 Maryland, from 67 to 68.
From the fall fo 1968 through the summer of 15 1972 I worked e,i wy masters and doctoral programs at the Pennsylvania 16 State University in the physiology section of the biology department.
17l I think the other thing was you wanted my work experience with Met Ed i
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or do you want it.
19l 20 MARSH:
The nuclear field overall Jim, if you would.
21f i
22 MUDGE:
Okay.
Upon graduation from Penn State I worked for rougly two 23 years with Texas Instruments, Inc.
They were doing a ecologicial study 24 at the Indian Point facility located on the Hudson River and I was in 25!
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charge of the impingement monitoring program,
" 3hly five or six 2'
people reported to myself relative to that program.
I also worked on 3
some other projects for them but that was my main responsibility there.
4l I joined Metropolitan Edison Company in the fall of 1973 and I worked 5
with the company through August of 1978.
I was employed as an Engineer 6l 3 and then my title was changed to Engineer Senior 1.
Worked within 7
the radiation safety environmental engineering section.
My main re-8 sponsibilities were all the non-radiological monitoring programs conducted 9
at both nuclear and fossil stations; preparation of technical specifi-10' cctions; modifications in the environmental report; sections of the 11 final safety analysis report, responses to ne, compliances both the NRC, 12!
the EPA and the state, relative to water, primarily water discharges.
1 13 From August 1978 and thru January 1979 I worked with the Washington 14 Public Power Suppi System on their aquatic monitoring programs that 15l were being conducted on the Hanford Reservation, Columbia River, and I ldi came back to Metropolitan Edison Ccmpany in February 1979 as a Supervisor, 17 Radiation Safety, Environmental Engineering.
In this particular position, 18{
I am responsible for non-radiological and radiological monitoring 19!
programs that are conducted by the company, our staff personnnel within i
20 the group are responsible for supporting these activities, primarily of interesttoyou,ofcourse,isThreeMiIeIslandNuclearStation,and 21 22 at the time I joined RS&E we had two people with Health Physics back-23 grounds on our staff, their main responsibilities were to insure that 24j the radiological environmental monitoring program was conducted, we had 25j the consultants to do the procrams, we got the samples collected in 2000 041 l
5 11 timely fashion, they ran life properly, the results are submitted in a 2
timely fashion, we submit annual reports to NRC and other regulatory 3
bodies as reqsired.
Other facets of the Health Physics area is to 4
provide support to tha station, particularly when Michael Bearing was 5
on our staff, he provided the expertise and personnel dosimetry and 6
support of the staff in that area, as need basis, and radwaste and some 7
of the other health physics areas, I suppose we could go on and on but 8
maybe that's it.
9 10l MARSH:
Okay.
Appreciate your summary there.
[
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12 1
MUDGE:
Quick synopsis.
13 14 MARSH:
This time I'll turn it over to Tom Essig who I believe has some 15i questions.
16:
I 17!
ESSIG:
Jim, what I'd like to do with you is to run through as best you 1
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can recall either just purely from memory or any notes that you may 19 have of your and your peoples' involvement primarily your own, cause I 20!
believe we talked to some of your people.
I interviewed Beverly Good 21; and Mike Bearing, both.
So primarily your involvement with the event 22 of March 28 at 0400 and I am mainly interested, myself, in the radiation 23 safety aspects, the health physics aspects for the first three days 24 following the event.
Tony is interested primarily in the operational 25j l
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aspects for the first 16 hours1.851852e-4 days <br />0.00444 hours <br />2.645503e-5 weeks <br />6.088e-6 months <br /> following the event.
So he may also 2'
have some questions for you but I'll start the questions on the basis 3
that most of your involvement was in my area.
So I guess I'd like to 4
start off thingt by, well, first of all you mentioned two people with 5
HP background on your staff.
Are those tne two people that I just 6
named?
7 8
MUDGE:
Yes, that's correct.
f 9l t
10' ESSIG:
Then, could we start off by your stating when you were first notified that something had happened at TMI Unit 2 plant, what you were l
1 told, what... you were asked to do thea in terms of any inputs to the 13 plant advice to them, and as best you can recall, just sort of go 14; through a chronology of your involvement and where you can pin down the
(
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time as closely as either you can recall it or that you may have made a 16l note to yourself.
So with that I'll let you go.
17;I I
18!
MUDGE:
My notes are snmewhat sketchy but let me give you what I have.
19!
I arrived at work on March 28 at approximately 7:00 in the morning and 20[
Mike Bearing and myself were going to go to TMI that day to discuss t
21I with some other personnel a report that we had prepared by an outside 22 consultant relative to some health physics practices.
And we were 1
23 going to meet Beverly Good at the site, to discuss this report.
We're 24 getting ready to leave and I believe it was Mr. Klingaman said, just 25j i
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got a call, I believe it was from Ron Warren, I think that's what I 21 j
have in my notes, that tt ce had been a loss of feedwater at TMI 2.
We 3l tripped the turbine, seemed to be some increase radiation levels in the 4
reactor, there were no indications of any releases.
My notes are 5
sketchy as to whether it was at this point in time, I think it was a 6
general emergency had had been declared at this point in time aiid I 7
believe that was bared upon a reading of 8 R per hour in. the dome 8
L monitor, was the basis for making tnat declaration.
Of course that was 9
made by site personnel.
And I believe that was the information that 5
10' was passed on to Mike and myself, and Dick Klingaman indicated that ni 11l thctght we should remain here, try to contact station perscanel, and 12l try to assess what was really going on, were there any releases off i
13l site, what kind of readings were they cetting, and what kind of in-i 14!
formation could we gather frc!n the personnel at the site.
One other l
15 thiag, Dick asked me to call Bev Good's home and try to get her in here 16!
rather than out there initially.
Which I did and found that she had 1Y already lef t and she was headed towards the site, so there wasn't much 18!
we could do in that regard.
Mike Bearing and I talked a little bit 19!
about it.
Mike said he was going to call Dick Dubiel who is the S v er-2 visor of Radiation Protection Chemistry.
This is my, I think this is 21[
accurate.
And I believe Mike did make some contact with the site and I h
22j don' t have a persons name there, but I believe he did make some contact.
23 It was recommended that we probably ir: crease the radiological environmental 24 monitoring program, Mike made the calls to apprcpriate personnel there, 25i i
2000 044
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that would have been Teledyne Isotopes, excuse me, I think he talked 2
I with Steve Gertz of Porter Gertz on that morning. relative to increasing 3
the intensity of our radinlogical environmental monitoring program.
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Should we do, what should we do, and I'm not sure who then contacted 5[
j Teledyne Isotopes and Radiation Management Corporation as to the increased 6l inten3ity of the program.
But it really would have been Porter Gertz 1
7\\
i since they have the sample cellector.
Ron Laflin, a professor at Elizabethtown College, is the gentlemen who collects the samples relative 9
to the radiological environmental monitoring program.
Most of the day 0
was, as I remember, was spent trying to reake contact with the site, 11 trying to get information as to the levels, off site, other activities 12 were in tryir.g to get respirators, that type of material, I belie.ve 13 Mike was the or.e mainly involved in talking to Peach Bottom also we 14l called Salem, Oyster Creek, some of the cther sister utilities that 1Ni were close by to get some equipment.
I'd say most to kind of generalize, 16f most of my activities and I would say Mike's activities and the other 17 people in the section, were tc support the site, particularly in getting 18!
equipment that we either anticipated we would need or we heard directly 19!
from them Inat they did feel they were going to need.
So most of our 20' activities were in procuring materials, also on that morning I got a 21!
great number of calls from friends and people in other utilities saying i
22 we've got this, if you need this type of material or equipment please 23 keep us in mind, what's going on at TMI, can you give us any information l
24 as to what's happening there.
These types of calls and basically I 25l i
2000 045
9 1,
j just said we'll someone will try to get back to fou as soon as reasonabla, 2'
l as soon as we can.
Other efforts were in reviewing the emergency plan, 3l l
what things needed to be done there, what things were we suppose to be 4{
j doing in here relative to the emergency plan, this was an area that I'd 5
have to admit I hadn't had a chance to review since I had come back 6
with the company, and hadn't spent a great time on before.
But we did 7
pull those out and looked at those, and those were like the 1670 Health 8
Physics Procedures and Administrative Procedure 1003.
Just taking a look at those and Mike was taking a very close look, I think at those i
10 types of procedures.
Most of the responsibility there lies with station 11 personnel; as far as getting the samples, notification of personnel, 1
all rests with station personnel.
So I'd say most of our activity was 13 in getting respirators, later in the day we started getting into ordering i
14 some tanks, where could we get tanks if we needed them to store radioactive i
15l water, I think we heard later in the day from some of our people that 16 we had quite a bit of water and we would need some capacity, some 17 storage for that water, so we were active in trying to see what the 18l resources were relative to tanks to store water.
19!
20f ESSIG:
Co you recall at what time it was that you first received 21 notification that there was evidence there had been an offsite release.
22 You indicated that you were trying to establish contact with the site.
23 24j i
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l consultant with the company from roughly 1974 on.
This was his area of 2'
expertise and so he arrived and provided some support in that area.
I 3
believe we also got some support from PP&L on sending personnel early 4
on in the incident.
Bill White and of course, Denny Trout was a former.
5 Met Ed employee who works for PP&L, we talked with them a little bit 61 end they came down to help us out.
But yea, that was another area, I 7
don't have written down but I know we pursued.
8 9
ESSIG:
Were you involved with the decision which was made on the 29th, 10 at least the interviews that I have conducted so far have established 11 the 29th as being the date when the decision was made, it might have 12 been made on the 28th, I'm not sure, but the decision to collect the 13 routine samples for the radiological environmental monitoring program.
14l I think what you were attempting to do is you were nearing the end of 15 the quarter anyway, and what I understand you were trying to do is to 16 weigh the advantage of a very quick collection following the incident, 17 in other words, maybe even the end of the day, that day on the 28th, 18l versus collecting it on the 29th, or the 30th, or just waiting till the 19!
end of the quarter.
And realizing that by waiting till the end of the 20 quarter you've got additional days of the event that you've added on to 21!
the, well particularly the TLD's and the air samples..
22, 23 MUDGE:
Sure.
I 24 2000 047 25 i
6
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l MUDGE:
I think most of the information I got early on was from, I have 2!
down here on my notes, some information from John Hilbish, our licensing 3
engineer.
I think he and Dick Klingaman were working very closely 4
together at that time and I have down here a couple of readings, but I 5
don't have the time.
7 mr at the north gate, 3 mr at the Observation 61 Ceraer, but I don't have the time on those.
But I do have it down on 7
my notes that it was early on in the incident.
8 ESSIG:
Did you receive a request or were you informed by the site that 10 because of the high background in the counting laboratory that the 11I Ge(Li) detector was essentially unus,ble for counting off site samples?
I 12!
13 MUDGE:
I don't believe I personally got that call, but I believe Mike, 14 someone in the group did, I don't remember exactly who.
I know we went 15 to B&W and we also went to RMC, I think we got one of the Mobile Labs, 16!
I think it came in from Salem, it's a little fuzzy in my mind, but we 17 did go after laboratory facilities to do some of the analysis and I 18{
believe it was RMC that we contacted in that regard and I believe Mike 19I was the one that made the contact.
Its either Mike or it was Limroth 20 on site who initially made that contact with them.
Another thing that 21 I didn't mention was getting personnel on site and Sid Porter who works i
221 with Porter Gertz I believe, arrived t.1at evening with some people frcm 23 Salem, he had been over there working t.ith them and Sid had testified 24 at the TMI 2 hearings relative to the emergency plans and has been a l
}QQO Ob 25 I
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ESSIG:
...were you in the chain of the decision making process, sir, 2'
were you consciously weighed, collecting them on the 29th versus the 3
l 28th, versus the 30th, and what kind of information that would give 41 1
you.
5 6
MUDGE:
I've kind of talked with Mike, okay, I didn't talk with any of 7
our other consultants.
Mike Bearing was here until, roughly I think 8
about saturday afterr. con when he went down to the site to run the 9
personnel dosimetry program.
Mike has worked with the company for over 10 5 years and he worked in the radiological environmental monitoring 11 programs.
We did discuss that maybe by removing them on the 29th and 12 looking in the last couple of days I think the comment was made that we i
13l could better have a feeling for what happened in those last two days.
14l This is kind of fuzzy but I believe I deferred to his judgment in that i
15 regard and went ahead and made the change on those.
16l i
17l ESSIG:
Did you receive inputs from Dr. Steven Gertz from Porter-Gertz, I
18i any recommendations from him?
l 19!
20j MUDGE:
I believe that was made to Mike and I don't remember, I believe i
21 if I remember correctly, I think he did suggest that but, that's fuzzy.
i 22' 23 ESSIG:
Okay.
Could you move on to, or if that concludes pretty much 24 your fi rst day...
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l MUDGE:
Well, later in the day, mainly it was getting face masks, 2l' garments, we were taking a look not only in Salem and having them bring 31 l
in things, and Peach Bottom, but the, we also contacted some of our 4l j
fossil stations, had some of the people contact our fossil stations to 5
see if they might have any respiratory equipment that we could use, and 6i I think you'll be talking to Barb Beck, I think she was involved in 7
contacting some of those people.
We also were, I think, I believe 8
during the day I talked with Bev Good once or twice.
She was with one 9
of the offsite monitoring teams and just getting some information it 10' was very sketchy information as to what they were seeing.
Her, just 11{
- ,eneral impressions of what was happening and who was doing what, and 12f severity of the problem.
I would say trat was pretty much the first 13 day, later in, I would say that is the first day.
I might take a look 14!
at my notes.
15 16 ESSIG:
On the first day did you uncerstand that there was any particular 17l problem with respect to radiciodine 1e.els offsite, or were you, did 1
18I you get any input of that sort?
19i 20 MUDGE:
I had some notes from Bev in the afternoon that there were some 21l high measurements of iodine, offsite, and the notes are sketchy here, 22 but yea, that we were seeing some high values.
They felt that they had 1
23l stopped the release.
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Il' ESSIG:
She believed at the time.
2 3
MUDGE:
Yea.
Now she was offsite, you know, and I think that this was 4l second hand, you know it was second hand information.
5 6
ESSIG:
Okay.
But she believed that it was actually iodine that was 7
being measured.
And that's what she relay.ed to you.
8 9
10 MUDGE:
That's what I have down in my notes, that it was iodine.
These 11' were taken quickly, that's what I have down, that's what I have in my 12}
notes, as my discussion, that it was iodine.
I believe that was some t
13 of the instrumentation that Sid Porter was bringing in some iodine 14 detection, some additional equipment for iodine monitoring, I have down 15'!
in my notes here as well.
16; 17l ESSIG:
Do you know, if at any time during either the first day, or the i
18{
following days that either you or any of your staff were called upon to 19l make an assessment of whether or not additional TLD'e and for the 2dj record, that's Thermoluminescent Dosimeters, were calle:1 upon to be, 21, the decision was made whether or not to deploy additional dosimeters?
22 One of your procedures does speak to that consideration, it doesn't say 23 that they shall, that consideration should be given.
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l MUDGE:
I think that in my mind it's a moving target, you have a plume 2!
l that's coming out, maybe for these two hours you go and place a TLD 31 three miles out and its over in Etters there, I'm just taking these as 4
an example, the next two hours maybe you should be over in Middletown.
5 It is a moving target and I think it would be difficult, you'd have to 6l have a great number of people to be moving out there constantly placing 7
additional TLD's and then its a very, I feel in my own mind, its an intricate system of deciding again when you pull those TLD's and bring 9
them back in.
Do you go back and replace them again.
I think in the 10 near field we have a pretty good program as far as TLD's, I think they 11 provide, I think insight and looking at the data that we've got, its 12!
some of the best data that's available for the incidents, the TLD data 13 and I feel that our program, our radiological environmental monitoring 14 program the way we stepped it up was responsive and timely and the 15l others would be trying to any other efforts, might be trying to shoot 16l at a moving target and I don't know how productive and cost effective 17 or person and you have to look at the human resources that you have 18l available to you at the time too.
How effective that would be and 19 that's just my general impression so I personally didn't give that 20 serious consideration.
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22lI ESSIG:
When you say steppad up the environmental monitoring program, 23 are you primarily talking about increasing the sample frequency as 24 opposed to maybe additional locations?
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I lf MUDGE:
Primarily the frequency of...
2t i
ESSIG:
Maybe additional analysis.
4:
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t MUDGE:
And there, we did pick up some additional sampling locations, 61 particularly as time went on for water samples.
I have since prepared 7
a table that shows what it was before and what we've done afterwards as OI far as sampling locations and what we were analyzing for and it wasn't just necessarily the frequency but we also may be taking a look at some 10 other analyses and under particular sample media, so it just wasn't the 11 frequency that was stepped up.
12, 13 ESSIG:
Okay.
Were we through your first day.
Pretty much.
14, 15; MUDGE:
I think we got a feeling on the first day that we were going to 16'i need to, I may have misdated this, but late into the day, like on the II 28th at 10:00 in the evening, it seems to me that we got notification 18{
that we, the site could really use some help as far as getting tanks 19{
for storage water.
I have roughly about 10:00 as when we got some 20i notification and I think we put together a kind of what we were looking 21.
for, and tried to contact different vendors that, we were aware of as 22 far as what tanks they might available, what capacity, when they could 23 supply them to the site, those were some of the questions.
I believe 246 1
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It it was late in that day, at least, I'm not, talking with some of the 2l other people, they've told n ! I misdated this and it was the 29th, but 31 1
I have down late on the 28th, it's what I have in my notes.
4l 5
MARSH:
I'm going to interrupt for just a second here and break for a 6
second and turn this tape over, the time being 10:39 reacing 477 on the 7
meter.
8 9
MARSH:
We're back up.
The time still is 10:39 the reading 479, continue.
i 10' 111 ESSIG:
Just a question on the tanks that you mentioned.
Were you 12 asked, when you said additional tanks were, you were notified by the 13 site that additional tanks were needed.
Did they give you any indication 14!
as to what type of tanks were needed, in terms of internal pressures 15!
that they could... pressures...
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MUDGE:
We've got some information as to, they thought they had about 18l 225 thousand total gallons, is what I've got jotted down in my notes, 19l and they said they didn't have a good handle on it, but as far as maybe 20!
140 "aicrocucies per cc, and that's a, those are definitely r0 ugh estimates i
21!
of those.
Tnat was the information that we had at the time and I know I
22j we contacted a number of our different vendors, not only for tanks but 23 for solidification of waste and nuclear and...
24i 2000 154 25 l
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ESSIG:
Chem-Nuclear was already on site.
2:
I 31 MUDGE:
Yea.
I believe they were.
I believe the gentlemen's name was 4l Barney Miller.
I kr.ow Mike was the one who talked with him.
We also 5
looked at Hittman, and Monsanto and Hal Burton and some of these other 6
people we contacted.
I looked into buying railroad cars, talked about 7
some of the problems with some of those types of procurement, and I 8
think that's pretty much it for the first day as far as any notes that 9
I have.
I would say that I personally spent some time that first day 10 just going over our procedure, generation procedure for 1402 on the 11 REMP which details sample collection, notifications and that type of 12l thing and also taking a look at the FSAR and Chapter 13 has some infor-1 mation on the emergency plan.
I do have some other notes here.
I 14 epologize for not being a little better prepared but got me doing this 15i and talking ans speaking engagements, getting prepared for the Presidential 16!
Commission.
I do have a note here I talked with Sid Porter on the 17 Pirst day and I'm sorry, I talked with Mike and he talked with Sid, 18!
they said they left about 4:15 on the first day with 100 respirators, 3 ISE to 400 cartridges and they thought they'd be on site about 7:00 and 20' they were providing some support.
21; i
22 ESSIG:
That was Sid Porter of Porter and Gartz.
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1 MUDGE:
Yes.
I think that's it for the first day.
2:
3 ESSIG:
Okay.
Do you have any notes or recollections of th: second and 4l third day.
5l l
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.YUDGE:
I would day that the second and third day was spent mainly 7l j
trying to procure, working with our materials management group in 8!
trying to get the tanks, trying to get some of the other people in our section involved, Dave Kai1 was interesting with Pickard-Love and i
10' Garett transmitting meterological data, interacting with their personnel, 11 making sure that we got good meterological data, we got data tht could 12 be read on site for people in the Control Rocom, he was working on that 13 particular one.
Barb Beck became our acting REMP directcc, so to 14 speak, and the group here o'ecause Beverly Good was on site and sne 15 interracted with Mike and started, she started becoming familiar with 16 again, the REMP procedures and who the people were at Teledyne Isotopas 17 she should interface with and who the people were at Porter-Gertz, she 18{
knew the people at Porter-Gertz and 7eople at Radiation Management 1N!
Corporation.
20 21, ESSIG:
Excuse me Jim, could you define REMP.
22 23 MUD 3E:
Radiological Environmental Monitoring Program.
24 2000 056 as I,
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20 1
ESSIG:
Thank you.
2 :
3!
ESSIG:
Jim, when you refereed to shielding, did you primarily mean 4l' shielding for these tanks that you were trying to round up or were you a
~
talking about other shielding '. hat would be needed.
6l 7
MUDGE:
Initially, we were just talking about the shielding for the 81 I
tanks, Berks and etc. I have some notes, I know I spe7t quite a bit of 9
time on the 30th, that would have been the third day, I've got quite a 10 bit of information here as to different types of lead shields, dimensions, 11 thickness and where we could get them from, how quickly they could 12 supply them tc the site, not only shields but blankt:ts and bricks and 13f then also I contacted some people at Gilbert Associates who had worked 14 for us, Ed Dukwine and I talked to him and he gavc me George Koval's 15 name and telephone numbers and also we got some telephone numbers and 16i names of people at MPR and made this list, we sent it out to the site i
17l so that, hose pecole would be aw:re if they needed some people who 18{
were, had more expertise at shielding and how you should set up t'e 1
shields and that type of thing, that these people were available to 20 interract with them in that area.
As far as the lead shielding, it was 21 pretty much an interraction with myself, our purchasing department and 22 a gentlemen by the name of John Allen, I'm not sure he's one of ours, 23 I'm not sure who John's with.
I think he's a vendcr, who's helping us 24 expedite getting this material.
2si 2000 057 i
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}
ESSIG:
Do you recall on Friday, the 30th, being notified that an 2!
l evacuation had been recommended.
Recommended by the NRC.
31 l
4 MUDGE:
I don't have that down on my notes I don't remember that.
5 No. I probably was made aware of that, I just don't remember it off 6
hand.
Most of the information at that time was coming via what I was 7
getting from Dick Klingaman and John Helbish and what I was hearing on 8
the radio.
I would say probably that an area that would definitely 9
need improvement.
That's an area that all of us need to look iilto, is 10 our communications channels and I'm sure steps are being taken in that 11 regard.
As far as the shielding I believe it was George Kunder who had 12 contacted us originally had indicated that he needed something to 13 shield the hydrogen recombiner and that's how we got involved initially 14!
with that.
Twenty applications of approximately 1 cubic yard sources 15!
is what he indicated and we tried to get things that would have other 16!
applications, tried to get shielding, bricks and etc. and could be so 17!
they could use them in other different applications.
That was an 18{
initial application that he indicated to us.
19f i
20l ESSIG:
He said that he'd have about 20 applications of what...
21 22 MUDGE:
I said what do you really need there as far as equipment and 23 materiais and he said maybe twenty applications of 1 cubic yard sources 24 and other...
25 2000 058 i
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22 1'
ESSIG:
Oh, okay, the volume of the source was be shielded was approx-2 imately 1 cubic yard.
3 4
MUDGE:
Yes.
51 6
ESSIG:
Okay.
Did he indicate to you as to how much lead he would 7'
anticipated need around these twenty or so applications?
8 9
MUDGE:
No, and I indicated that I would try to get some individuals 10 who he could talk to and that's what I was indicating before, people 11 from Gilbert and MPR to talk with him.
I'm not sure if he ever talked 12l with them, I don't know.
13l f
14f ESSIG.
Okay.
i 15:
16 MUDGE:
Without communicating, you know, those two people got together.
17 But I did telecopy this information out to the site, to George Kunder's 18{
attention and I also called and talked with Dukwine and told him that 19{
he may be expecting a call from them if they felt they needed it.
I 20l think the other notes that I have here pretty much intertwine with what 21, we said before getting personnel, getting equipment, RMC's mobile lab, i
22' talking to the INTEREX and 'inding they didn't have anything, Eberline, 23 Hegleson, thw whole list of off site mobile counting lab, provisions do 24j they have for alpha beta, gamma tritium analysis, etc.
How fast could 2000 059 2s 9
23 1
l they be on site, what kind of personnel, how long could they stay 2i i
there, what power requirements do they have, for their operations.
I 3
don't believe I have, I do have some notes here when we talked with 4
Catalytic and they offered some instrumentation if we wanted it.
Most 5
of these things were passed on to the site, or else I talked with Mike 6
and we just told them to send it cut there, attentien to Dave Limroth or Dick Dubiel so they could utilize it as they saw fit.
I don't think 8
I have anything else.
9 10 ESSIG:
Okay, let me come back to one point that you sort of hit on a 11 little bit earlier when you mentioned that you come back in February of 12 1979 as Supervisor of Radiological Safety, Radiation Safety I guess it 13 is, and environmental engineering, who was your predecessor in that 14 position, I gather that was not a new position that was established.
15; 16!
MUDGE:
No, my predecessor was Dr. Thomas A. Jenckes.
17 18!
ESSIG:
Jenckes, Jenks?
l 19l 20!
MUDGE:
Jenckes.
21f 22 ESSIG:
Jenckes, okay.
Did you receive after you came back, or assumed 23 the position of radiation safety and engineering, specific training in 24 the emergency plan, training which is required by I think its procedure 25' 2000 160 i
24 1
1670.9, which references the, there's a section of that procedure which 2'
refers to the corporate support personnel, and your position specifically 31 I
mentioned as the person position should receive certain training in the 4!'
emergency plan and the off sit assessment and had you received this training.
6 7
MUDGE:
No, I had not received the training.
I think in general we k
hold an annual drill, I worked with Tom before and Mike when I was...
9l
[
10 ESSIG:
Tom...
11 12; MUDGE:
Tom Jenckes.
13 14:
ESSIG:
Okay.
I 15i 16!
MUDGE:
See, we were all in the section together at one time, and we 17 all came to work with Met Ed at about the time.
Those drills were held 15l roughly on an annual basis and I believe past, the past they've been 19!
done in the spring or in the summertime and coordinated by our training 20!
department, and where they'd ask us to participate, coordinate who was i
21 to participate, and people to be invited to participate and I know Tom 22 had always participated in the past.
I did not have the training.
23 24 2000 061 25j i
25 1,
ESSIG:
Had you ever participated in the past.
2!
3 MUDGE:
No I had not.
4l 5
ESSIG:
Okay.
I didn't assume you would have since your primary po~sition 6
would have been in the non-rad area.
7 8
MUDGE:
Yes, that's right.
9 10 ESSIG:
Quickly check my notes here and see if there is any.
Tony, do 11l you have any areas that you want to pursue.
12 13 FASANO:
I had one question.
Earlier in the first day, did you have 14 much difficulty in making contact to get information that you needed, or...
16i 17, MUDGE:
Yes.
I 18l 19l FASAN0:
Was there a special person you were trying to contact, or 20!
just...
2000 062 21 22 23 24 25 l
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l MUDGE:
Well, we were trying to contact, Supervisor of Radiation Protection 2{6 and Chemistry, Dick Dubiel and also trying to contact the Control Room 3
and there was a great deal of difficulty with that, I think there were 4
a great number of people also trying to contact, you know, trying to 5
call those same numbers, contact those same people.
6 FASAN0:
Is this what you would do during a drill exercise, would you made similar type contacts.
9 10 MUDGE:
I think it's important that we do have the contacts so we can 11 know what kind of support we can provide here.
There isn't any, to the 12 best of my knowledge, in the procedures, and maybe it's just because of 13 my lack of knowledge, at this point in time, where we are required to 14!
do that, but we do have contacts with vendors and I think it's very 15i necessary that we do find out what's happening on site so we can provide l
16l the support, I don't know if I've answered your question or not.
17 18j FASANO:
Well, I was looking at, that you mentioned that you participated 19l in emergency plans and then you had difficulty in the real thing.
20 21 MUDGE:
No, I have not participated.
I think I answered that question.
22 I have not participated in any of the drills before.
2 2000 063 24 25 l
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27 1
FASANO:
Okay.
2' 3
ESSIG:
I have a couple of additional points so I'll come back to.
You 4
indicated that on the 28th when you came into work, you and Mike Bearing 5
had' planned to go to the site that day to discuss a report from, that 0
you received from a consultant about, regarding HP practices, at the 7
site.
Could you elaborate a little what that report was about and what 8
consultant prepared it.
9 10 MUDGE:
I'm not sure how proprietary, I guess it isn't proprietary.
11j It's...
The report was prepared by NUS and they had reviewed some of 12 our very short time frame some of the Health Physics practices at TMI.
13 Dosimetry and radwaste, personnel, and we had hoped to discuss with the 14 station staff the validity of their comments, their recommendations, 15!
should we implement these, shouldn't we, it was a preliminary discussion 16!
and hopefully then provide some recommendations to management relative i
1T to the report that had been prepared.
18!
19l ESSIG:
Did the report identify a ~ number of areas where, in there 20 judgement significant problems existed with your Health Physics Program.
2 11 22 MUDGE:
I could call them, they had indicated some areas where they 23 felt we could use possibly some greater number of individuals to perform 24 the tasks that may be there..
q g /p 25j l
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{
28 1
ESSIG:
Were they saying you were understaffed in some areas-2 31 l
MUDGE:
That was the indication of the report, yes.
4l 5
ESSIG:
Did they make any comments on the training that had been provided O!
as a matter of routine to-the Health Physics Technicians or the Rad-Chem technicians.
8 9
MUDGE:
I believe that was a part of the report.
I believe I had 10' drafted my own comments and recommendations to go into the meeting, 11 what I thought and I just haven't looked at that report since that day, 12l since the incident.
13 14 MARSH:
If I may let me interject a comment at this point, if I may, 15!
Marsh speaking, regarding two things.
One, I noticed during the course i
16!
of the interview you are referring to a set of your own notes and I'm 17 sure you are aware there has been an order issued by the NRC for the l
18l preservation of notes and data in connection with the investigation..
l 19l So I would just call that to your attention to be sure you do preserve l
20l those.
I don't see a need to secure copies of them at this time, but I l
21l would flag that to your attention, and secondly, in regards to the i
22l specific reports you are making reference to, I at this time would 23 interpret that they would have a bearing on the investigation and l
24 should also be protected.
Your notes that you may have jotted down for 25 200J 165 I
29 1
i your own conference, again, I don't think we need access to them at 2'
this time but should later on in the investigation we want to confar on 31 i
that I would protect those at this time.
4j 5
MUDGE:
They're in the files.
6 7
MARSH:
Okay.
8 ESSIG:
And one additional question on that report from NUS.
Do you 10 recall how NUS was first brought in, what triggered bringing them in, 11 who made the decision.
12; 13 MUDGE:
I believe Mr. Herbein.
14!
l 15i ESSIG:
Mr. Herbein did.
16!
17l MUDGE:
I believe.
18l 19i ESSIG:
And it was based on just his observation of Health Physics 201 practices in the plant, was it based on an NRC Inspection or just an 21 internal audit by your staff or by the plant staff, or.
22!
23 MUDGE:
I believe there is probably some documentation in the file as 24 to why he brought them in.
I'd rather not, I'm sure there are some 25 reasons given there and I'd rather not speculate on those at this 2000 066 i
t
[
30 1l i
ESSIG:
Okay.
2 3
MARSH:
While your looking I've got a quick question, just to kind of 4
clear up my own mind, addressing the same area of training. What is the 5
corporate program on training.
In other words, who at this level would 6l be monitoring the range and depth of training administered to both your 7
rad-safety and your health physics people.
Is that monitored up at 8
this level or is that more or less delegated dawn to the site.
9 t
10 MUDGE:D'Well, I think you'd have to talk with the training personnel.
k 11 l
MARSH:
All right, that would come out of training, this is one thing 13 I'm looking for.
Is that monitored completed by training or is it that 14 the...
15, 16i MUDGE:
Well, there's an interraction and...
17 18 MARSH:
What about the scope of that interraction?
19f 20l MUDGE:
Dr. Truskie wasn't it.
21!
22 LEFIN:
We just had a reorganization a couple a few months ago.
23 24 25l 2000 067 i
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b
l
)
{
31 f
1 MARSH:
Okay, we can look into who it would be, but there is a degree 2
of interraction, they certainly can't work independent without input as 31 i
'o what skills have to be put in there.
What about the monitaring of 4l the performance of training and assuring that you do have qualified ci
~l people.
Is that, do you know who's responsibility that would fall bi ur:dar, training area, or would~ that be more into yours to monitor.
7 8
MUDGE:
Like we have a training program NUS provides some tapes and 9l things of that nature, and after you have completed a certain set of i
10 t3 pes or presentations then jou take a written test, that's put into 11 our training coordinator and then back into the training department.
12 13 MARSH:
So that would be fed in thru training.
14 i
15l MUDGE:
Yes.
16!
17 MARSH:
What about changes to manuals or NRC advisements that would 18 come out how is that handled, being passed down the line. Do you become 19 involved with that in your area, or again is that handled by training 20 to disseminate that type of information.
21l l
22l MUDGE:
I'm not quite sure of the question.
It changes to procedures, 23 our procedures...
24 2000
% 8 25 i
32 1.
MARSH:
Ycur procedures or advisements from NRC of having any bearing 2!
l on health physics or...
3l l
4l MUDGE:
Well, as far as procedure, we get what we call procedure change 5
requests and usually they're tasked, we have a task system and runs 6
form Dick Klingaman he has an administrator and then we get tasked to 7
temporary change notices, procedure change requests...
8 MARSH:
And this would operate the same way down at the plant.
At the 10 remote site it would run the same route down there.
11 12!
MUDGE:
It would run through the PORC.
Plant Operating Review Group, 13 Committee.
14 i
15!
MARSH:
Okay, I thank you.
That answers my questions.
16I 17 ESSIG:
I just have one further question.
I was making a couple of 18l notes as we were going here, way back at the initial part of the interview, 19!
I just want9d to clarify a point that you were making in terms of your 20{
formal education.
You indicated that you were working at the graduate l
21 level now, you had worked on a MS and Ph, you completed both at Penn i
22 State.
23 244 23 2000 069
33 I
1.
MUDGE:
Yes, sir that is correct.
2 3
ESSIG:
And they were in the, what would you say?
4 m
~
MUDGE:
Physiology is what my degree is in.
6l 7
ESSIG:
Okay, physiology, is part of that degree program were there 8
any, did you have any course work in the rad protection, rad health 9l areas.
j 10!
l 11 MUDGE:
I had one course in radio chemistry, it was part of a dairy 12 sciense course. I did some work with sodium 22 and 24 and looking at 13 paths of acid mine drainage on trout and passage of those isotopes 14 through the gill structure and so I did interract with scme of the 15l health physics personnel at their reactor there and had some exposure lE' there and I attended the course at the University of Michigcn which is 17 a two-three week course Introduction to Health Physics and Protection l
18 and one of the things when I reviewed was we discussed that my background 19l was not as strong possibly some other individuals in the Radiological 20l Safety and Health Physics area and it would ce necessary to get some 21 training if they were looking for an individual in a supervisory position 22 to administrate the group and to interract with the people and you 23 know, pick up the necessary technical background in some of the other 24 as!
2000 n70 I
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34 1
l areas.
So I assume their primary interest was in an individual to 2
administrate the group and to supervise and not be a technical expert 31 i
in radiological safety and health pnysics.
4l l
c
~
ESSIG:
Okay.
6 7
ESSIG:
I think'those were all the questiens I had.
8 9f MARSH:
I have no more either, so then at this time, the time being 10 11:06 a.m. reading 907 on the meter, we'll draw the interview to a 11 close, with a, just a work of thanks, Dr. Mudge for coming in, giving 12 us your time.
I'm sure your still busy.
We'll wrap it up the, the 13l time being 11:06.
I 14!
15; 16i i
17l 18l 19f 20 21l 22l 23 24!
2000 071 i
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