ML19273C006
| ML19273C006 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 05/11/1979 |
| From: | Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7906180724 | |
| Download: ML19273C006 (34) | |
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4
IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING
^
BRIEFING ON LEGISLATIVE MATTERS (SITINC & LICENSING)
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Place - Washington, D.C.
Date - Friday, 11 May 1979 Pages 1 - 33 2353 001 7 1.chen.:
(202)347 3700 ACE. FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficialReponers s
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DISCt. AIMER -
This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States in the Nuclear Reculatory Commission held on 11 u,,.
,o,o The Commission s offices at 1717 H Street, it. W., Wasmagton, O. C.
i In1 s transcrip,w meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
has not baen reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
t ll for eeneral informaticnal.urposes.
c
' The transcript is intended so e y 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part or the formai or in-orr.al
' As provided by record of deiision of the matters discussed.
Expressiens or opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final ceterninations or, be filed witn tne Ccmmission in beliefs.
'io pleadina or other paper may any proceedina as thi result of or addressad to any statement or arg.: men,u.
contained heriin, except as the Com.ission may authorize.
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CR 4693 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 PUBLIC MEETING S
BRIEFING ON LEGISLATIVE MATTERS (SITING & LICENSING) 6 7
Room 1130 1-717 H Street, N. W.
8 Washington, D. C.
9 Friday, 11 May 1979 10 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 1:50 p.m.
11 BEFORE:
12 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 13 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 14 RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commissioner 15 PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 16 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 17 PRESEUT:
18 Messrs. Bickwit, Gossick, Crane, Hoyle, Engelhart, 19 Ostrach, and Boyd.
2353 003 20 21 22 23 '
24 Acvecerai neooners, inc. -
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EEEEEEElEEE (1:50 p.m.)
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let the meeting come to order.
The Commission meets this afternoon for a briefin~g 4
5 on legislative matters.
My intent, as I indicated, I guess, 6
to some of you the other day, in this meeting was not that tie would resume some of the drafting efforts that we have had 7
8 under way earlier in the year; but rather, it seems to me that there are a number of items connected with legislative matters 9
that we could usefully have brought up to date to our collective 10 11 attentions.
And I have asked the general counsel to make sort of 12 13 a tally of the various things that are going on and what we might do about some of these several areas in the legislative 14 15 field.
With that preface, Len, would you go ahead?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Joe, could I ask, I'm not 17 sure I understand what we could do about them.
What did that 18 mean?
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think if you give Len a chance, 20 he has some recommendations in various areas that are worth 21 hearing about and thinking about.
22 MR. BICKNIT:
Yes.
I am three recommendations that 23 I would like to make to the Commissioners.
And then, after 24 those are made, I would like to ask Peter and Steve to discuss la FMetal R egerters, loc.
25 some of the specific proposals that are around at this point.
2353 004
4 ate $2 a
1 The first recommendation -- and I should preface this by saying 2
these are policy recommendations rather than legal recommenda-3 tions.
It shouldn't be accorded any undue deference, although 4
I am not particularly concerned that it will be.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You'd be glad to have them 6
treated with respect, but don't want to claim that it's'a 7
straight legal matter.
8 MR. BICKWIT:
That's right.
9 The first is that you not send up a siting and 10 licensing bill at this point.
11 (Laughter.)
12 MR. BICKWIT:
I think it's out of order.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would agree with Mr. Ahearne's 14 brilliant characterization of the posture at this time.
15 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
I especially like his speed.
16 MR. BICKWIT:
But that you prepare comments,vhich 17 we will prepare and draft for you, if you like, on portions 18 of the legislation which do appear to have some prospect for 19 success in this Congress, i.e.,
included in the regulatory 20 report packages which are now before the Senate and House.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Have we been invited to submit 22 such a comment?
23 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
24 The second recommendation is that you -- that we Aa FMetai Recorters. im.
25 get the precess in motion to comment on the various moratoria 2353 005
5 te 3 proposals and other proposals relating to licensing and siting i
which are under immediate consideration, and that we do that 2
3 even before being asked to comment.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
When you say "do that," you a
mean prepare such comment but not submit it before having 5
been invited to do so, either in the usual written way'or 6
through testimony?
Or are you suggesting that we volunteer it?
7 MR. BICKWIT:
I'm suggesting that you volunteer it.
8 I base that on the fact that these proposals do go right to 9
10 the heart of y6ur jurisdiction, and that these are matters which we believe the Commission ought to focus on directly.
11 And the third recommendation is that --
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me comment, before you go on 13 14 to the third one, Len, that,that leads, then, Peter, to the sort of discussion which you were requesting that the 15 16 Commission have --
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Exactly.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- growing out of your note from 18 19 the 2nd of April.
MR. BICKWIT:
Thirdly, and perhaps it would have 20 I
I been more appropriate to raise this yesterday, but I think it 21 fits here, we would propose to divert some of the resources 22 l
t of OGC that have been applied to siting and licensing legisla-23 tive matters to examine our existing authorities in light of 24
{
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc, j 25 TMI and actions relating to the B&W plants, to see whether 2353 006
ate '4
'a 6
1 these authorities ought to be expanded or made more flexible; 2
and that that analysis not await the outcome of the investiga-3 tions, which may be relevant to some legislative proposals a
but I believe in some cases we will find to be irrelevant to 5
proposals we might want to make in this area.
6 So, with that preface, I would like to ask P.eter to 7
discuss the various proposalos which have been presented.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Len, are Peter and Steve 9
going to address each of your three proposals?
10 MR. BICKWIT:
No, they are act.
If you would like 11 to address them at this point, we could do that or after you 12 have heard them we can do it.
Whatever is your pleasure.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEAREF:
I guess I Would agree with 14 the first and the second -- with the first and the third, 15 agree with the beginning of the second as far as the volunteer-16 ing depends on how the comm3nts would come out.
But they all 17 Found pretty good to me.
18 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think they are useful endeavors.'
19 I think the discussion of these various courses of actions to 20 take with regard to plants in various stages down the licensing-21 track is one which we should have, and that is part and parcel l'
22 of commenting or being prepared to comment, at any rate, en 23 various things, various bills that have been proposed.
24 MR. BICKWIT:
Let me add just one matter.
On the Ace rederu neporters, Inc.
25 first recommendation, we have been asked for replies from i
i 2353 007
itei 5 7
1 Congressman Dingell and Congressmen Udall and Bingham, and 2
our Congressional Affairs Division office has received informal 3
communication from the staffs of those Committees that they 4
are not hungering for responses.
And I would suggest that
5 the Commission respond by letter at this point, but not offer 6
legislation.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I wor'.d think it would 8
be appropriate for us to respond in very much the vein that 9
the Chairman had testified in front of the Senate yesterday, 10 that, given the circumstances of the Three Mile Island acci-11 dent and the reviews at this time, it would be premature for 12 us to comment on that.
13 MR. BICKWIT:
We have every indication that that 14 response would be well-received.
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Len, you spoke of diverting 16 resources from those that you had recently been putting into 17
-siting bills.
Would that free up a lot of people?
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. BICXWIT:
I was searching for a transition.
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
At any rate, I think the 21 three points were useful ones, wherever the resources will 22 come from.
23 MR. CRANE:
I have simply prepared a little summary 24 of where things stand with the Commission's consideration of
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25 licensing legislation may be moot if there is general agreement 2353 008
8 te 6 I
not to go further with it.
We had gotten as far as the 2
findings section of the findings and conclusions; even that 3
act without certain areas yet to be --
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I think it's moot.
5 MR. CRANE:
The status of other licensing bills --
6 for this we are dependent on the advice of Congressional 7
Affairs, which tells us that Title V of S.
685 is not likely 8
to go anywhere and will in all likelihood --
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are we running down siting 10 and licensing legislation here?
Is that what we're doing?-
11 MR. BICKWlT:
Yes, we are running down those pieces 12 of legislation which touch on the kinds of subject matter 13 you have been considering in these discussions.
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It doesn't say which they 15 are as you go.
Which is Title V in this?
16 MR. CRANE:
Title V is the siting and licensing 17 sections of the Johnston-Jackson bill, S.
685, on which.the 18 Chairman just testified.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is the point there that since 20 that's really not within their jurisdiction as a Committee, 21 that therefore --
22 MR. CRANE:
I think Ed may be bet;er able to speak e-2 23 to why that dces not seem likely to go places.
MR. BOYD:
They recognize the fact that, in view of 24 k
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. I 25 the circumstances we're in right now as far as TMI --
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Doesn't that same reason 2
apply to all of these bills?
Do we really need to go through 3
all of thec2?
4 MR. BICKWIT:
There really aren't very many of th'em.
5 The ones that I would like you to stress are the moratorium.
6 MR. CRANE:
There are only.two others.
One has been submitted and it is also likely to go nowhere.
There is y
also the Administration's bill, which may repeat last year's 8
9 experience.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Has that been submitted?
11 MR. CRANE:
It has not been submitted.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I haven't seen the thing titled 13 the new Administration bill and I thought it had not.
14 MR. BICKWIT:
It hasn't, but there is a commitment 15 to submit it.
16 MR. CRANE:
On the amendments to the authorization 17 biil, there is Representative Xarkey's amendment, which was 18 approved in the Interior Committee, forbids expenditure of 19 funds for the issuance of a construction permit for any nuclear 20 plant in the first six months of 1980.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Forbids expenditure of funds?
22 MR. CRANE:
That's correct.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
And how is it worded precisely?
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do we have the text of that.
ice Federal Reoorters, Itic, 25 MR. CRANE:
Yes, we do.
"No amount authorized to 2353 010
ate 8 10 1
be appropriated under this Act may be expended by the Nuclear 2
Regulatory Commission for the issuance of any construction 3
permit for any commercial nuclear power plant during the first 4
six months of fiscal year 1980."
5 COM".ISSIONER KENNEDY:
Does that mean that no review 6
can be taken?
7 MR. CRANE:
No.
Presumably, it means that you can 8
review, but the piece of paper cannot leave the door.
9 MR. BICKWIT:
I don't think'it's entirely clear what 10 it means.
I'd'be inclined to go with that interpretation.
11 But I think it could be clearer.
12 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Create a great hustle on 13 September 30th there.
14 MR. CRANE:
Then there is Representative Weaver's 15 amendment, also approved in the Interior Committee, which says 16 no NRC funds can be expended for the issuance of an operating 17 license unless the Commission has received from the state in 18 which the plant is sited and has approved an emergency plan 19 for such state or multistate region, if that's applicable.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
When was that approved?
21 MR. CRANE:
I believe also at the same time.
22 MR. BICKWIT:
It was not reported in "The Washington 23 Post."
24 MR. CRANE:
Yesterday the full Senate Environment i
se..ra.,e a oonm, inc.
2S and Public Works Committee approved two amendments orally --
i 2353 011
te'9 11 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Peter, the one thing on 2
Weaver's, I read the stuff that came though, but I don't 3
recall what its time frame was.
Was it in FY '80 also, or 4
was it upon enactment?
5 MR. BICKWIT:
Here, I have it.
It's "no amount 6
authorized to be appropirated under this Act," which means 7
FY '80.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'80.
9 MR. CRANE:
Two amendments from Senator Hart.
The 10 first is identical to the Weaver amendment just described.
11 The second, which was approved six to four and which we don't 12 yet have in written form, states that within six months of 13 passage states in which nuclear plants are located, but which 14 do not have emergency plans now, must have secured NRC 15 approval of such a plan or have their plants shut down.
There 16 are 17 states in that category and there are some significant 17 implications to this.
18 One is that it depends on states to submit a plan 19 to the NRC.
If a state were to decide that it wished to have 20 all its plants shut down, apparently it could simply decline 21 to submit such a plan.
Then we would have no choice but to 22 shut down the plants.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's a directive to us to 24 issue orders, is that correct?
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\\ce Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 i
MR. CRANE:
That's right.
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12 te 10 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's not an amendment to 2
the Atomic Energy Act or anything; it's an authorization act d
3 directive to us?
4 MR. BICKWIT:
We haven't seen the language, but I 5
think that's the way it would read.
And the reason we 6
haven't seen the language is that at this point there isn't 7
any language.
It's being drafted.
8 MR. CRANE:
Also on May 9, the Interior Committee 9
voted to -ddopt an amendment by Representative Vento directing 10 the Commission to ch 3e fees for every CP and every OL issued I
11 and each inspection performed at any f acility, and these fees 12 would be equal to the aggregate of costs, bath direct and 13 indirect, incurred by the Commission.
14 The Commission would have authority to institute 15 civil suits to recover the fees if people declined to pay --
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Just powcz plants, Peter?
17 Hospitals?
18 MR. CRANE:
It speaks in terms of "any facility,"
19 and that is one of the issues raised by it, because under 20 present authority we do charge for inspecting hospitals, and 21 this might be seen as limiting our authority to production 22 and utilization facilities.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What's the practical effect 24 of that as contrasted with the present practices?
te.Jeen i aemrtus, inc.;
25 MR. CRANE:
Well, originally -- under the Independent 2353 013
te 'll 13 1
Offices Appropriation Act of 1952, agencies are authorized to 2
collect fees for services performed.
And in the late 50s, 3
there was a lot of pressure from the Congress to recover as 4
much as possible, up to 100 percent.
And the Commission tried 5
a fee schedule aiming at more or less full recovery at one 6'
point.
7 But about the time it got that prcmulgated, the 8
Supreme Court came down with two decisions involving the FCC 9
and the FPC in which they said no dice; we have got to assume 10 that some benefit accrues to the public from regulation, and 11 therefore we will not let you put the whole cost of regulation -
12 onto the industry.
13 COMMISSIONER KENMEDY:
Industry would assume that 14 whatever benefit accrues must go to the public.
It would 15 hardly imagine it going to them.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. CRANE:
And the Supreme Court did this on 18 constitutional grounds, invoking the Schechter chicken case.
19 It's kind of a -- they are peculiar decisions.
But suffice it 20 to say that there could be some constitutional problems with 21 this, even if there were a statute directing the Commission 22 to do this.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Is the implication in the Vento 24 l amendment that all of the NRC's operating costs would be
.ce Federal Reporters, Inc.1 25 shared out and recovered by fees?
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ute'12 14 1
MR. CRANE:
I don't believe it's that extensive.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
The costs associated with the 3
actual activity, direct or indirect.
4 MR. CRANE:
Yes.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Whatever that is.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Wnat are the indirect cos'ts?
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We already charge fees for --
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That was my question.
What's 9
the difference?
What is the practical effect as distinguished 10 from what we are doing right now?
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I guess it isn't very clear.
12 MR. CRANE:
It's not very clear.
I think the idea 13 of this -- I assume that behind this is the -- maybe I assume 14 too readily -- is the perception that the whole structure of 15 nuclear regulation is in some way a subsidy, so if you make 16 them pay their proportion of the typewriters and the water 17 coolers --
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It suggests they don't under-19 stand we are already charging fees.
20 MR. CRANE:
I think that's a fair assumption.
I 21 don't think they would have drafted legislation which in some 22 way seems to narrow -- seems to narrow our authority if they 23 were fully aware of what we're doing now.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do we have the precise Aa+weral Roorters, inc.
25 wording of that amendment?
2353 015
15 ite*13 1
MR. CRANE:
Yes.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSK'l:
Have we been asked to comment 3
on it?
4 MR. CRANE:
Not so far as I knov.
t 5
"The amount of any fee required to be paid under 6
this section with regard to any license, permit or inspection 7
shall be equal to the aggregate of the costs incurred, directly 8
or indirectly, by the Commission in issuin, the license or 9
peer.it involved or in carrying out the inspection invol~ld, 10 as the case may be."
11 Far from specific.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can we do anything about 13 this?
Can we usefully discuss this thing at the present time?
14 It seems to me not.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's being enumarr.2d because I 16 think the Commission ought to make its views on a thing like 17 that known, in due time.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are we proposing to volunteer 19 our views?
20 MR. BICKWIT:
We have some additional discussion 21 that might be helpful.
22 MR. ROTHSCHILD:
Let me see if I can talk to you 23 a little bit from what we can see.
One, it seems to basically, 24 in most cases, restrict what we're already doing under the l
see+ecerar neporws. une.
25 ICAA.
This seems to limit us to charging fees for just 2353 016
16 tte"14 1
inspections and permits and licenses.
Right now we already 2
charge for additional activities, such as license amendments, 3
topical reports, review of standard reference designs.
There 4
are a variety of different activities that wouldn' t be covered 5
by this, and one would really want to find out whether the 6
intent here is to limit our authority and this would be our 7
exclusive statute for license fees; we would also have the 8
IOAA.
9 Another major area where it is a little bit differ-10 ent from what we do now is it says we're to charge for all.
11 insp?ctions.
Right now we only charge for certain inspections.
12 We charge for routine inspections up to a certain number of 13 inspections per year, and if we exceed that we don't charge 14 for those extra inspections.
15 In addition, we don't charge any fees right now for 16 emergency inspections.
I guess under this this would mandate 17 that we charge fees for all emergency inspections.
18 Another major difference here is, right now we are 19 charging our full costs of recovery for operating licenses 20 and construction permits, and we are based on figures that 21 were derived in the year 1976-1977 costs.
Those costs have 22 skyrocketed.
And this seems to be saying that we need~to be 23 charged for the most current level, which would be,'in one 24 sense, an 'ncrement in our fee schedule that we are already AwFMetat Remners, Inc.
25 doing.
2353 017 l
ate.15 17 1
The other thing, it seems to be referring to 2
inspections of facilities we can charge for.
Well, we inspect 3
lots of things besides facilities, such as waste management 4
depositories, we inspect radiographers, we inspect hospitals.
5 So, after quickly reviewing this thing, in many 6
senses'it seems to restrict our authority that we hava, if 7
one is to assume that this would re, lace the IoAA with respect 8
to this agency.
And the only area where it seems to expand 9
our authority appears to be in the inspection area, where I 10 guess we've got the authority now but decided we didn't want 11 to go that route.
12 Another problem with this thing is it appears to be 13 immediately effective upon enactment, and in certain areas, 14 such as these increased areas where we're not charging inspec-15 tion fees now, we don't have a fee schedule or anything else 16 in place, so we certainly wouldn't have gone out for public 17 comment or anything else.
It would be very hard to charge 18 people inspection fees, since we haven't even figured out what 19 those costs are.
20 We need to do something about this legislation.
It's 21 a problem.
22 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do we intend to have comments 23 given back?
24 MR. BICKWIT:
Well, what we recommended was not sco-bederal Reporters, Inc.
25 that you try to reach conclusions on these proposals at this i
2353 018
ste'16 18 1
point, but that we go through the staff and get up to you 2
some suggestions.
We are simply filling you in at this point e-3 3
on what is around.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I feel filled in.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, the only problem with 6
that, Len, is you have described a process which has at times 7
taken months to go through the cycle.
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Many months.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And I would hope that somehow 10 we've got a lot of initial concerns, and it would appear II useful through some mechanism, really, to Mr. Vento or --
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask, do these things 13 come out of the blue?
Why is there no discussion with the 14 members there on these matters, so that there aren't these 15 vast misunderstandings or whatever?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's because the members of 17 Congress come into a Committee meeting and slap down a proposal l
18 for some language to go into the bill.
That gets discussed 19 and voted on.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I suspect these things don't 21 happen overnight.
22 MR. BICKWIT:
I would assume that sometimes they 23 come out of the blue and sometimes not.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEAR:I:
A lot of amendments do come Am FMetal Reprters, inc.
25 out of the blue.
2353 019
l 19 ite *17 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It is to be noted that at 2
least one of those already cited this afternoon hasn't even 3
been written yet.
4 MR. BICKWIT:
Quite a number.
S COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But in any event, I would 6
hope that we can try to at least get some of the concerns 7
expressed back to Mr. Vento as soon as possible.
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Ed, have we in fact made an to say to the various Congressional offices on that 9
effo: t 10 Committee, just one office at a time, please let us know when 11 you are going to attach something to our bill, maybe we would 12 have something useful to say about it?
13 MR. BOYD:
Cometimes we are cut in and sometimes we 14 are not.
The Vento amendment just popped out of the blue on 15 markup dav.
The other amendments are dealing with time at 16 this point (Inaudible.)
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think it can hardly be a mystery 18 to any member of the Congress that has anything to do with a 19 Committee that has jurisdiction over it, that the agency is 20 here and what our phone number is, and that there are an 21 assortment of people here on the Commission and staff and out 22 in Bethesda on the staff, who would be glad to discuss one or 23 another of these aspects if they're interested in getting any 24 information.
L>eweral Rs;mrters, lrse.
25; The fact that they don't come and ask I think is --
1 I
l 2353 020
ite*18 20 1
means they're not much interested.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't think that's right.
d 3
I think it reflects on our relationship with these members.
4 COhMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I don't think that's true at 5
all.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I do.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I don't think that's true at 8
all.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Why don't you talk to the member, 10 you know.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
As a practical matter, markup 12 sessions, at least in my experience, the number ~of amendments 13 which can be tossed out for consideration, the bulk of which 14 arise right then at the tabl'e, exceeds the number of members 15 present at the markup session as a general rule.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE.
I'd be surprised if Mr. Udall in 17 fact had any clear signals as to what was coming in some of 18 the sessions where these things are brought up.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
At least some of those, as 20 '
a matter of fact, that were voted upon by the Committee, the 21 Chairman and at least one other senior member voted no.
22 MR. CRANE:
I will pass the baton.
23 MR. OSTRACH:
The final subject we would like to 24 discuss today and very briefly, are the provisions in the Les Fatwa Reporters, tm:.
25 pending regulatory -- the general regulatory reform language 2353 021
21 te 19 I
legislation that's been submitted that might affect the 2
Commission's siting and the Commission's licensing policies.
3 There are, as we discussed with you before, two major proposals 4
that have been introduced in the Congress dealing with regula-5 tory reform, one introduced by Senator Ribicoff, I am told 6
now with a total of 40 cosponsors, and one introduced on 7,
behalf of the Administration.
8 The two proposals are quite similar in most respects, 9
and we are sending to the Commission, we expect early next 10 week, a memorandum discussing them in more detail.
There are 11 only three points that I would like to mention today whien 12 directly affect the C,ommission's licensing practices.
And I 13 think that it might be better just to mention them and I'll 1
14 ask any questions that you might have.
15 The three points are:
the partial limitation of 16 adjudicatory hearings for some licensing proceedings; modifi-17 cations in the separations --
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
This is the Ribicoff bill?
19 MR. OSTRACH:
Both the Ribicoff and the Administration 20 bill.
As I say, in many respects the bills are quite similar.
21 The second area which will affect the Commission's 22 responsibilities will be modifications.in the separation of 23 functions provisions in the Administrative Procedure Act, 24 which deal with the ability of the agency decisionmakers to A&Fkeral Remnm. W. j 25 consult with agency employees who are engaged in litigating 2353 022
ite.20-22 I
functions.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
(Inaudible.)
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There you go.
Aren't you glad 4
you heard that?
5 Which way are they going?
More limiting, I believe.
6 MR. OSTRACH:
Well, it's not entirely clear.
The 7
language of the bill isn't all that clear.
We have been 8
discussing this with the staff members over the telephone.
9 At least the staff members seem to say -- the Ribicoff people 10 say that their' bill doesn't change things significantly from 11 the way agencies are actually operating in practice.
It does 12 remove one theoretical loophole that we could have used, the 13
(
initial licensing loophole, which we have not.
So in that 14 sense the Ribicoff bill is a. tightening of the barriers.
15 The Administration spokesmen have said to us -- and 16 we are looking at more carefully the statutory language, to 17 dake sure that this is in fact so -- that they have set up --
18 they will be setting up a system whereby in expedited hez~ines, 19 the non-adjudicatory hearings, there will be very free cc 20 nication between decisionmakers, such as the Commissioners, 21 and staff experts who know about the matters, while in the 22 full adjudicatory hearings, which will be retained for some 23 types of proceedings, more or less the present separation of 24 functions rules will continue to exist.
sc.rww.i nnmnm. ine.
25 And the Administration spokesman I spoke with this 2353 023
ste 21' 23 1
morning said he believed this was a very important distinction 2
between the Administration bill and the Ribicoff bill, and 3
that they believed it would be a significant inducement or 4
should be an inducement for agencies to support the expedited 5
hearings provision, since in expedited hearings they would be 6
much more able to communicate.
7 He gave an example that they felt that in expedited 8
hearings staff members who would be witnesses in an adjudicatory 9
hearing and therefore totally -- it would be improper for the 10 Commissicners to discuss matters with them off the record --
11 would be sitting beside the decisionmakers as advisors.
And 12 he believed that that would be very popular with agencies.
13 I said take it up with ours.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There's hardly room over here 15 for the five of us.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Likely to be less popular with 17 most everyone else, including the courts.
18 MR. OSTRACH:
Yes.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see.
The hearing aspects --
20 do I remember the Ribicoff bill moved towards the thing that's 21 been called the hybrid or hearing format?
22 MR. OSTRACH:
Yes, sir, it moved at least one leg 23 toward hybrid hearings.
It would make what are now full 24 adjudicative hearings more nearly hybrid hearings.
It wouldn't.
hm FMetal Reprters, Inc.
25 do anything to rulemaking hearings.
2353 024
24 ita 22' 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's what your point one 2
was?
3 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
4 MR. OSTRACH:
Yes, sir, that was my first point, 'the 5
adjudicatory hearings.
6 The final point in which the two have matters of 7
some interest to the Commission would be on intervenor funding, 8
and our recommendation to you right now -- or the recommendation-9 that we expect to be making in a paper we will be sending to 10 the Commission is that the Commission focus its comment on.
11 these two bills and the-similar bill that has been introduced.
12 in the House which is the same as the Administration bill --
13 would be to focus on these three areas, rather than the more 1
14 general provisions of the bills that affect all agencies.
It 15 is our opinion that those are -- we have been to a number of 16 meetings already where various agencies are up in arms or 17 enthusiastically supporting things like the regulatory analysis 18 provision and the definition of significant rules, and they I9 are not matters that are of unusual significance to the 20 Commission.
21 Whereas we believe that the hearing question, the 22 separation of functions questions and the intervenor funding 23 matter are all matters of particular concern to the Commission.
24 We recommend the Commission comments focus on those.
Aa-rMetal Recorters, lec.
25 We're going to discuss the provisions of the bills 2353 025 I
te 23 '
25 1
on those three subjects in our memo and ask for your views in 2
drafting a response to the Congress.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Have we been asked to comment 4
on these, all three of the bills?
5 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
6 MR. OSTRACH:
Yes.
Well, we haven't been asked 7
specifically to comment on the Administration bill as intro-8 duced in the House of Representatives.
We have been asked to
-4 9
comment on both bills that are before the Senate.
10 2353 026 n
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Aa FMetal Reporters, ine.
25 1
4693 '
T5 mm1 26 I
MR. OSTRACH:
I can't speak to the scheduling of these 2
bills.
At the present time they are both J.n hearings in the 3
Senate of the United States.
Hearings in the House are expected to start later in this month and be completed, or markup to 5
be completed in June.
6 The expectation, at least on the part of the 7
Ribicoff and staff workers, and the Administration people, is 8
that all of the bills will be heading for the floors of both 9
houses by the end of this summer.
Although the Administration 10 expressed some hope that they could speed up the process on II their bills.
12 The point of that comment was, the Commission has I3 substantial time left to prepare comments and have them Id considered by the committees. They are not going to be on the 15 floor until June at the earliest.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am laughing, Steve, because 17 I assurae you meant June of this year.
And then you say we I8 have " substantial time."
Our pace -- that is accelerated.
I9 MR. OSTRACH: The "we" wasn't strictly defined 20 either, Commissioner.
21 '
(Laughter.)
22 MR. BICh"dIT : That's it.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Are we likely to get calls for 24 hearing appearances on these things, or are they going to Ac.mer.: n.mrters, inc.
l 25 settle with us on letter comments.
I
27 mm2 1
MR. BICKWIT:
I am sure you won 't get called in, 2
but I am sure if you wanted to testify, you could.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think I have -- actually, I 4
believe I still have a couple of days unbooked before July 4th.
5 (Laughter. )
6 Not many. But they are going fast.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What is the prospect f'or these 8
amendments to the authorization bill, given the fact that --
9 in terms of hearings -- given the fact that:
A, they will 10 have to presumably go before Mr. Dingell's committee, or will 11 they?
12 MR. BICKWIT:
What is your view, Ed?
13 MR. BOYD:
They will be sequential.
14 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
With a fixed time?
15 MR. BOYD:
Pardon?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Fixed time?
17 MR. BOYD:
Most likely.
18 For planning purposes, May 21st is when Dingell's 19 staff says they may go to markup on it.
20 MR. BICKWIT:
Are they going to have hearings?
21 MR. BOYD:
That is up in the air. They have already 22 held a hearing, but not so far as the amendments are concerned.
1 23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's getting kind oi close in.
24 What I recommend to the Commission is -- to see if i
Ac jeral Remrters. Inc.
l 25 I can remember Len's points and track down them -- is, indeed,'
2353 028
28 mm3
)
that we not attempt to go forward with licensing legislation.
2 We have just got too much else to 'do, and it is not a time 3
when people in the Congress are going to want to focus on that 4
anyway.
5 I do think, however, that we ought to have a short 6
letter back both to Mr.Udall and Mr. Bingham on the one hand, 7
and Mr. Dingell on the other, just saying that, and saying that 8
we would go with the holdup for the precent on these things, so 9
that there is some, you know, closing of that correspondence 10 loop.
11 With regard to the various things that have been 12 tacked onto the authorization bill and possible comments on those, 13 I think we ought to meet and discuss these things, the general 14 subject as well as the particular comments, and I think Lee, 15 one-of the things that we ought to have, if perhaps the project, 13 side of NRR or maybe MPA could put it together -- whoever out 17 there -- we ought to have some tabulations of where plants are 18 in the sequence.
So that when you talk about, for instance, 19 not issuing construction permits for the first six months of l
20 fiscal '80, we know at least within the nominal schedule, which '
I 21 units those are, r
Certainly, on the operating license side, why that 23 is a matter of some concern, and I think somebody ought to l
24 take at least a brief look at what come of the power supply Ace redera. Aeoorters, tric. l 25 i ramifications are with regard to the nearer term operating 1
1 2353 029
29 mm4 1
licenses, where there may have been plans in one area or another 2
to have those plants on for summer peaks, wintor peaks and 3
so on, for the next year, year and a half.
~
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The same thing might be true --
5 not in all those questions, but the impact on the construction 6
permits.
If LWAs have been in existence, what has been going 7
on, and at what point the work permits --
8 MR. GOSSICK: Yes.
Good point.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
10 Let's see, what other sorts of things would be 11 useful background for.that kind of discussion?
12 MR. GOSSICK:
I think you want to know where the 13 plants are that would be affected if the amendment goes 14 through on requirement of a plan, you know, within six months.
15 There is 39, as I understand, that would be affected.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes.
17 MA. GOSSICK:
And we want to know where those are.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
What states.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It probably would be 20 interesting to know how much -- (Inaudible.) -- devoted to 21 ' those efforts.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. That's another aspect.
23 And that will have to be sort of the NRR manager's best 24 l horseback guess, because it is very hard to do those things.
Aa FWerst Reporters, Inc.
25 !
But, in view of the Three Mile Island related i
2353 030
s 30 nmS I
activities --
MR. GOSSICK:
Less than there was originally.
CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes.
The Three Mile Island related activitjes are 5
certainly going to have a major effect on the ability of the Staff to process on what I would call normal schedules.'
6 MR. GOSSICK: But understanding this, as you read the amendment, is it going to keep us from Assuing a license 9
during this period, October 1 to March 1, but not necessary 10 stop us from doing reviews?
11 MR. BICKWIT: The House amendment.
That would 12 be our best reading.
But I need a caveat there.
It is not 13 entirely clear.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is not clear.
15 MR.BICKWIT:
In the Senate, we have no reading 16 because we have no amendment.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Lee, I guess I wouldn't shape it 18 totally towards that single amendment or its counterpart up 19 on the Senate side.
But, let us take a look at what stage 20 the whole array of plants that are in the chain are.
What is I
21 up in operating licenses, for instance right now,over the 22 next cir-and so on.
23 MR. GOSSICK:
Maybe we can work that in the briefing.
l 24 I! I believe it is scheduled for next week, li ensing schedule.
4,.,g,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I would think Roger and his people 2353 fi31
- e 31 a
mm
)
could put this information together.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Also, on the emergency 2
3 planning side, I think you want to take a look at
-- well, we 4
obviously hava. a list of states that have reactors but have' 5
not --
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What stages are their plans.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Right.
We want to know 7
8 what stages their plans are right now.
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I guess I wouldn't expect to any licenses to issue between now and the time the Commission 11 reached a decision on that.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You wouldn't expect what, 13 Peter?
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Any licenses to issue between 15 now and the time the Commission reached a decision, next week 16 or whenever we do.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I assume that's right.
18 MR. GOSSICK:
I don't know that there are any in 19 that status.
20 Do you want me to say if there are, not to issue?
i 21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, at least call me and let me i
22 go around and talk to all of the Commissioners if there is l
23 anything imminent.
24 !
I see a hand.
Yes, Bob?
I oxeneran neoorters. w.
25 l MR JOSKE:
Mr. Chairman, the press is reporting these 1
2353 032
o.
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cmendments as evacuation plans.
2 Is the language clear that these are emergency 3
response plans, or evacuation plans?
4 There is some language there that needs to be lookcd 5
at very carefully.
6 MR. BICKWIT: The Weaver snendment says " emergency 7
evacuation plan."
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It is evacuation.
9 MR. JOSKE:
That could affect twelve states that to are already approved because these emergency response plans, 11 while they may provide for evacuation, do not necessarily 12 stipulate evacuation.
13 MR. GOSSICK: The important point is what the 14 amendmer*s mean.
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Bob, is it conceivable there 16 would be an emergency response plan that included no evacuation?
17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Quite possible.
18 MR. JOSKE:
I think that depends on the event.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I'm sorry -- that included 20 no evacuation, as a precaution against any possible event?
21 MR. JOSKE:
I think evacuation is always built I
o 22 i in, but it is not in terms -- it is not a specific requirement.
I 23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What you are say'.ng is, you 24 don't particularly review and approve, concur in the evacuation AA ederal Reporters, Inc.
plan as such?
2353 033 25 !
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)
MR. JOSKE:
That is absolutely correct.
2 MR. GOSSICK:
What you' concur in is the overall 3, state approach towards everything, including the fact that perhaps they say, if necessary, we will evacuate?
4
[
5 MR. JOSKE:
Correct. -
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Other elements of interest here?
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I would also agree --
7 are you going on to all of Len's list?
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes.
9 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then I would also -- I think 11 it would be wise for him to shift emphasis on to examining 12 the authorities.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Just so.
That's the third area.
14 And I recommend that that, indeed, be done.
15 You know, at various times we have had some discussion 16 about the order and hearing requirement framework, which at 17 least at times has seemed kind of heavyhanded.
And we wondered 18 about more flexibility in -- the aim, as I understand it of 19 the discussion would be to take a look at that and see what 20 might be reasonable.
And that might actually lead us to 21 proposals for clarifying legislation on our part.
22 Other items?
23 (No response.)
24 Very good.
Thank you very much.
h j
p 25 (Whereupon, at 2:35 p.m.,
the hearing in the above-
!, 4 entitled matter was adjourned.)
2353 034 l