ML19269E448
| ML19269E448 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | New Haven |
| Issue date: | 03/20/1979 |
| From: | Matias T, Schwartz S NEW YORK, STATE OF |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 80008, NUDOCS 7906290060 | |
| Download: ML19269E448 (138) | |
Text
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OSCAR H. PARIS JEC/mm/2 ATcMic SAFETY & LICENSING BOASgEAidELCase No . 800080 scar it Paris, Ph.D. 1 LL 5. huCLEAR REGULATORY~ COM[.f!SSION
, hYASHINGTON, D. C. 20555 '
1 NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE DEPARTMENT
- and -
, 2
- NEW YORK STATE BOARD ON ELECTRIC GENERATION 3
SITING AND THE ENVIRONMENT 3
4
- IN THE MATTER 5 gg 141979
.-c f the -
6 Application of the NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC & GAS 7
CORPORATION and the LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY pursuant to Article VIII of the Public Service Law 8
for a certificate of environmental compatibility
~t
and public need to construct two 1250-megawatt nuclear generating units in the Town of New Haven, 9
Oswego County, or at an alternate site in the Town of Stuyvesant, Columbia County.
10 11 MINUTES OF PREHEARING CONFERENCE held at 12 the Legislative Chambers, 46 East Bridge Street, Oswego, 13 New York, on Tuesday, March 20, 1979, commencing at 14 10 a.m.
15 BEFORE:
i IS THOMAS R. MATIAS, 17 t Presiding Examiner _
19 Public Service Commission SIDNEY A. SCHWARTZ, Associate Examiner 20 h Ob[ f{
u@ Deperemene of Environmeneat 4 21 Conservation 22 .
23 2137 318 -
l . . . . _ , _ _ _ , . . . . . .
7906290080 [
2 I
1 APPEARANCES:
7 2 '
For the PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION STAFF:
3 ROBERT GREY, Staff Counsel MICHAEL FLYNN, Staff Counsel 4 Agency Building #3 The Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller 5 Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223 6
For NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC & GAS CORPORATION:
7 I'UBER, MAGILL, LAWRENCE & FARRELL,-ESQS.
8 99 Park Avenue t
g New York, New York 10016 g By: BODERICK SCHUTT, ESQ.
,, NORMAN W. SPINDEL, ESQ.
10 COLES H. PHINIZY, Esq.
11 For DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION: ,
12 DAVID A. ENGEL, Senior Attorney for Energy 13 50 Wolf Road Albany, New York 12233 For OFFICE OF PARKS & RECREATION:
15 J015 KIOSOWSKI T( 16 For DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE & MARKETS: -
17 RICHARD P. FEIRSTEIN, ESQ. . [-
18 New York State Office Campus Building #8 19 Albany, New Yor)-
20 For VILLAGE OF MEXICO:
. 21 MICHAEL MOWRY, ESO.
Village Attorney 22 9
For OSWEGO COUNTY FARM BUREAU:
23 ~
1 "^* ' **"""
2137 319 PAR $CNT RUCRTENG SERVtCt. INC.
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3
, s 1
APPEARANCES: (Continued) 1 2 For SAFE ENERGY EVR NEW HAVEN:
3
, LINDA HANYPSIAK 4
For OSWEGO COUNTY PLANNING BOARD:
5 ROBERT DEYLE, 6
Environmental Manager 7
For ECOLOGY ACTION, 'IOMPKINS COUNTY:
., 8 JAMES FUDALA 9
ALLEN D. MAC NEILL 10 For TOWN OF NEW HAVEN:
11 GORDON SCHIPPER, Supervisor F. O. Box 82 a 12 New Haven, N.Y. 13127 '
13 For ECOLOGY ACTION:
14 HELEN DALY RUTH KAPLAN .
15 SUE WEBER 16 For MEXICO ACADEMY AND CENTRAL SCHOOL SYSTEM: _-
17 -
JAN TIGHE 18 19 20
- 21 22 2137 320 23 I
g PAR 3oNT REPORTING SERVICE. INC.
4
.s 1
JUDGE MATIAS : Could ue come to order, 7 2 ple ase ? It is pcst 10:00 o' clock, Ladies and 3
G e ntle me n . Le t's go on the record. .
4 I call Case 80008, and I am sure all of 5
you know but to s tate it for the record, this is 6
the application of New York State Electric and 7
Gas Corporation and Long Island Lighting Company, a
pursuant to Article VIII of the Public Service 8
Law for a Certificate of Environmental Compati-10 bility and Public Need to cons truct two, 1,250 11 megawatt nuclear generating units in the Toun 12 of New Haven, Oswego County and the alte rna te ~
13 site in the Town o f S tuyve s an t , Columbia C ounty.
14 I am Thomas Ma tias . I am an 15 Administrative Law Judge with the Department of d is Public Service. I will be Presiding E:: amine r in 17 this proceeding and to my lef t ic Dr. S idne y ' '.
18 Schwartz who is a Hearing Officer with the 18 Department of Environmental Conservation and he 20 will be the Associa.te Examiner in this proceeding.
. 21 Now, I uculd like to start by taking 22
. the appearances of counsel or representatives of
- 3 s
the various parties and le t me start, I would 2137 321 PamsoNT RapoRTING SERvict, Inc,
5 1
j us t call you out and le t ce sec.rt with the 2 s tatutory partie s .
)
e 3
Who appears for the Applicant, New York 4
S tate Electric and Gas and Long Island?
5 MR. S CHUTT': For New York State 6
Electric and Gas, Huber, Magill, Lawrence &
7 Farrell, Roderick Schutt, Norman W. Spindel and
, a Coes H. Phinizy, of Counsel.
(
8 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mr. Schutt.
10 Is LILCO represented today?
11 MR. SCHUTT: No. LILCO is not repre- .
12 sented today, 7 13 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. They will 14 be represented on Thursday when we mee t in 15 Albany, 16 MR. SCHUTT: Yes. I am informed that 17 they will be. -
U JUDGE MATIAS: All right. For the 18 Staff of the Public Service Commission.
20 MR, GREY : For the De partment of Public 21 Service , Robert Grey and Michael Flynn.
22 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mr. G rey. -
~
22 For the De partment of Environmental Conservation. 2l3[ 322 PrnsonT RKrontsNo Sanvect.1Nc.
6 i
1 MR. ENGEL: For the Depart =ent of 2
Environmental Conservation, my nace is David 3
Engel.
4 JUDGE MATIAS: Thank you, Mr. Engel.
5 For the De partment of Commerce .
6 (No response) 7 JUDGE MATIAS : Does anyone know whe ther 8
( they plan to participate?
8 (No response) 10 JUDGE MATIAS : I gather not.
11 The Department of Health.
12 (No response)
I3 JUDGE MATIAS: The Department of S tate .
14 (No response) 15 JUDGE MATIAS: Parks and Recreation.
(
16 MR. KLOS0WSKI: John Klosowski, .
17 K-1-o-s-o-U-s-k-i. -
I8 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mr. Klosowski .
18 S tate Geologist.
20 (No response) 6
' 2
JUDGE MATIAS: All right. Are there 22 any other S tate agencie s that are here today?
23 MR. FEIRSTEIN: Yes, your Honor, as a 2137 323 l ..._,....,~.....e. ,~c l
7 I
statutory party , I am representing the New York
[ 2 S tate De partment of Agriculture and Marke ts ,
3 Richard P. Feirs tein, e
4 JUDGE MATIAS: Agriculture and Marke ts 5
is a statutory party' in this?
6 MR. FEIRSTEIN: Yes.
7 JUDGE MATIAS: I didn't note that.
8
,- All right.
8 Hudson Rivery Valley Commission.
10 (No response)
II JUDGE MATIAS: All right. Maybe they will be with us on Thursday.
I3 St. Lawrence Eas tern Ontario Commis sion .
I4 (No response) 15 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. That is all
I8 I have in the way of s tatutory parties.
I7 Now, many of you filed notice s of I8 in tent to participate in hearings. Now, these 8
are non-statutory parties and I am going to j us t 20 call you out and I will call all that I have
' 21 re ce ive d . I know many of the pe ople will pro:: ably
, be with us on Thursday when ne me e t in Albany, 23 their intere s t being in Columbia County but I 71.37 474 PansoNT Rgron'tNo Stevict. INC.
3 3 would like to call them out because - -
perhaps
[ 2 some will appear here.
- 3 All right, the Rensselaer County 4 De partme nt of Health.
5 (No response) 6 JUDGE MATIAS : I think they will pro-7 bably be the ra on Thursday.
.g a The Town of Me::ico, Mr. G ibb ,
9 Supervisor for the Town of Mexico.
10 .
(No response) 11 JUDGE MATIAS : All right, the Village 12 of Mexico, Barbara J. Campbell, Clerk. ~
13 Not here.
14 Yes?
15 MR. MOWRY : I am the Village of Mexico is attorney.
17 JUDGE MATIAS: Would you s tate your 18 name, sir?
19 MR. MOWRY : Michael Mowry, M-o-w-r-y, 20 Village Attorney, Village of Mexico.
- 21 JUDGE MATIAS: Thank you, Mr. Moury.
22 The Oswe go County Farm Bure au.
m MS. WEBER: Nancy Weber, Oswego County 2137 325
.....~,e.~.........c..,~c. I
9 m
1 Farm Bureau.
2 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you.
3
, Safe Energy for New Haven.
4 MS. HANYPSIAK: Linda Hanypsiak, 5
H-a-n-y p-s-i-a-k.
6 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you.
7 Town of Kinderhook. I expect they will f 8 be with us on Thursday.
8 Town of Coeymans , I expect they will 10 probably be interested in Thursday's session also .
11 City of Oswego. Is the City of Oswego _'
12 represented today?
13 (No response) 14 JUDGE MATIAS : I had heard from Mr.
15 James P. McGrath, Counsel for the City.
i 18 All right, Columbia County Fruit _
~
17 Growers. I think they will also be at the -
18 Thursday session. Vivian Rosenberg.
18 (No response) 20 JUDGE MATIAS : Osuego County Planning Board.
22 '
MR. DEYLE: Robert Deyle , D-e-y-1-e, U
Environmcatal Manager.
2137 326
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10 1 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mr. Deyle .
.' 2 Neal Rauch, from Ithaca.
3 (No response) 4 JUDGE MATIAS: I guess he is not here.
5 Mr. Kafin,' G lens F alls . I think he is 6 probably on Thursday.
7 Ecology Action, Tompkins County.
8 MR. MAC NEILL: James Fudala and
(
9 Allen the Neill. I would also like at this point --
10 JUDGE MATIAS : Be fore you go any 11 further, would you spell your name?
12 MR. MAC NE ILL : F-u-d-a-1-a and 13 Mac Neill, M-a-c N-e-i-1-1. I would like to 14 take this opportunity to speak on behalf of the 15 League of Women Voters of Tompkins County who I6 were not able to be here. They also would like 17 to intervene in this case. They have been inter- ',
I8 venors in the Jamesport Case in NYSEG's service 18 territory and I would like to reque s t a copy of 2 the regulations, the Article VIII Re gula tions I 21 uacer vhich they mus t file.
22 JUDGE MATIAS: Uell, I did not re ce ive U
- any noe :e of intention from the League of Women 2137 327 P ARe0NT REPCRTING SERvect. INC.
11 I
Voters. They are an e:<pe rience d group. They i 2 '
have been in this be fore . It was due by Fe bruary 3
, 20th and I certainly didn' t adhere to that date 4
because I received many of them late .
5 MR. MAC NEILL: What happened was, 8
there was no legal notice in the Ithaca Journal 7
which is our area paper. We only found out la te r 8
-( tha t the application had been docke ted or there 9
had been a legal notice in the Syracuse Post 10 Standard but our area paper, the Ithaca Journal 11 did not carry the legal notice.
12 "
JUDGE MATIAS : Doesn' t or Rauch re pre-13 sent you, because I did hear from him and I 14 heard from him in a timely fashion.
15 MR. MAC NEILL: No, he does not. I am 16 from Ecology Action and I as only speaking on .
17 -
behalf of the League of Women Voters now. ;
18 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Well, that 19 appearance has been notad then for the League.
20 MR. MAC NE ILL : Thank you.
I 21 JUDGE MATIAS : All right.
n Concerned Citizens for Safe Energy. -
n I think that is also probably a S tuyvesant '
2137 328 P AR$CNT REP 08tTING SEMyICE. INC.
12 I related Intervenor.
2 Town of New Haven. -
3 MR. SCHIPPER: Gordon Schipper, 4 Supervisor for the Town of New Haven and Mr.
5 William Anderson of Pickard and Anderson, 6
JUDGE MATIAS : Columbia County Fart 7 Bureau. I think that would be a Thursday
,- 8 a ppe arance also, f
9 Ecology Action, Helen Daly.
10 MS . D A LY : Helen Daly of Oswego and 11 on my le f t is Ruth Kaplan who sill also be working 12 for Ecology Action and Sue Weber. -;
13 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mrs . D a ly ,
gv 14 The Assis tant Attorney General.
15 (No response) 16 1 JUDGE MATIAS : The Attorney Generalis 17 Office is not represented. All right. J 18 The Plumbe rs and S teamfitters Local 18 No. 273, they are not here , all right.
2 The Citizens to Preserve the Hudson 21
. valley, I think that would be a Thursday intere st 22 also. -
23 That is all of the notices that I have
- 2137 329 PassoNT Rtecar No Stavict. INC.
13 t
1 received. Is there anyone else who has intended g .
to become a party to this proceeding and did not 8
. file a notice.
4 May I have your name , ple ase ?
5 MRS. TIGHE: Yes, Jan Tighe, Mexico 6
Academy and Central School System and the le tte r 7
of intention was sent to the Public Service 8
(.
Commission. I cr.n ge t a c opy f or you.
9 JUDGE /ATIAS : Oh, you did send a 10 le tte r?
11 MRS . TIGHE : Yes.
JUDGE MATIAS: I did not re ce ive one 13 and I should have. I will check with them.
14 About how long ago did you send it, Mrs. Tighe?
15 MRS. TIGHE: It uas in January or s 16 Fe brua ry .
JUDGE MATIAS: Oh, I apologize for that .
18 I should have that. I uill look into it but 19 your appearance is noted then.
20 Anyone else?
". 21 (No response) 22
- JUDGE MATIAS : I guess .'ot, n
If you recall, the notice of prehearing 2 1 3 7 .< .z n.
PAM$QNT REPCRTING SERVICE. INC.
14 t
t c onfe rence in this case setup an agenda that ue 2 wish to follow and I think you are all auare that -
3 this is not a hearing, that you are not here to 4 consider substantive matters but we are here to 5 discuss procedure and under the Commission's s Rules, one of the things that we have to do is 7 to discuss the funding of this case.
, a I think you are all auare that for s
3 municipal parties, a fund of $25,000 has been 10 established for recention of consultants and 11 experts to assist you in the presentation of 12 views at hearings that will be forthcoming.
13 What I want to do today is, I want to 14 discuss with the municipal representatives, if 15 they have any interes t in the funding, if they a is plan to bring experts or consultants to the 17 hearing and if you do, we can go through you and J 18 I will jus t take you one at a time and if you 19 recall the notice of prehearing conference , I m will ask you to be prepared to make a presentatic n
. 21 in the following areas: The identity of e::perts 22 or consultants under consideration, a curriculum n vitae for each expert or consultant including the 2137 331 Pansom? REPORTING $(RVICE. INC.
15 1
area of expertise re levant to this proceeding, l 2 the extent of participation anticipated for each .
3 expert or consultant during the course of this 4
proceeding and identification of how the partici-5 pation of each expert or consultant will assist s the Siting Board in resolving the issues extant 7 in this proceeding and finally an es timate of the
., a total cost to be anticipated for each e:: pert or s consultant considered.
10 Now, just to apprise you of what brie fly 11 the procedure will be , I intend to hear you -
a 12 today and/or Thursday at the prehearing conference -
13 in Albany. I will be hearing from the municipali -
14 ties located in Columbia County and municipalitiels 15 having an interes t in the S tuyve sant alte rna te
't 16 si te and af ter tL2se presentations have been made ,
17 then ne will just have to sit doun and decide how -
18 we will allot the money.
19 So, le t me j us t begin on a random ; asis .
2)
I understand the Town of New Haven is here and
. 21 I believe they have a presentation to make.
22 Why don' t we s tart with the Town of New Haven, -
23 if you could just tell us wha t you have in mind, 2137 332 P4RSONT REPORTING SERVICE. lNC.
16 I
1 ge ntle me n.
,- 2 MR. SCHIPPER: I have a short presenta- -
3 tion. I would like to just start the pre senta tion 4 and then turn it ove r t o Mr . Anderson who will 5 go into the s tudy re que s t.
6 JUDGE MATIAS: Right, fine, Mr.
7 Schipper. If you could jus t give ic from here.
, a MR, SCHIPPER: All right. My name is
(
s Gordon Schipper. I as the Supervisor of the la Town of New Haven.
11 NewEnven, as we all know, may we ll 'ce 12 the home of a new power generation facility, --
13 coal or nuclear.
14 NYSE66 and LILCO have been conducting extensive 15 research in the Town of New Haven.
( 16 This research is now part of their 17 applications to the S tate Siting Board and the J 18 NRC.
19 This application consists of more than J f! f ty volumes and 20,000 pages of printed 21 ma te ria l .
22 Several sections of this application are 23 of particular importance to the Town of New Haven.
2137 333 PansoNT REPORTING SERVICE lesC.
17 m
3 They address the social and economic impacts of 2 constructing and operating two tiuclear or three '
3 coal plants wholly within and close to the 4 population center of our Town.
5 The Town feels other plant related 6 issues, such as: radiation, 765 KV lines, 7 environcent, slab piles, cooling tower plume s ,
g and siting, will be carefully studied and g examined in de tail by the state and/or federal go agencies who have the people and expertise to gg do the j ob.
12 We feel confidant the Siting Board and -
13 the NRC will assure us that if a plant is built, g4 it will be safe to Town residents and our 15 e nviren=e nt .
- k. 16 As to the social and economical impacts 17 of the construction and operation of a power -
18 generating plant in our Town, the Town has one 19 basic goal. He wish to be comple tely pre pared if a this plant is going to be built here.
21 We want to knou in advance what to 22 expect and how to bes t prepare for what we aust 23 do.
2137 334
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la t
1 Our Town does not have the knowledge 2
or training to review the NYSE&G/LILCO applica-3 tion to find out how this plant will affect us!
4 In order to review the impacts of 5
this plant, which will be unolly within our Town, 6
we must contrac t and pay for, consulting e::perts 7 to help us.
8 7
t The Town of Neu Haven is not impervious 9
to the concerns of its sister towns and villages la or thoughts of the sa fe energy groups, but wo 11' are fully cognizant of the fact that we must "
12 bare the full brunt of the construction and ~
13 operating impacts of this plant.
14 Because of this, and the fact that we 15 fully recognize our limitations, we strongly urge 16 that our request for a full study of the impacts ,
17 of this plant on our town Se fully funded . -
~
18 Realizing we need advice and counseling 13 we have contracted Pickard & Anderson of Auburn, 2
New York a company that has the knowledge and 21 experience in social and economic impact analys is 22 '
, to provide us with the information we need.
At this time, I would like to introduce 2137 335 Pansomf REpo4 TING $ERVtCE. INC.
19 1
Mr. William Anderson, of Pickard & Anderson, who 2 will discuss his company's research proposal, 3 qualifications , c:<perience and cost of the study 4 and service to the town.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. ANDERSON: With your permission, 7 what we would like to do is to make an abbreviate J a s ta tement insofar as our technical proposal of
(
8 several pages in length and ue are preparad to 10 submit this as an attachment to the record.
11 JUDGE MATIAS : All right.
~
12 As Supervisor Schipper MR. ANDE RS ON :
13 has indicated, the Town of New Haven is very con-14 cerned about the social impacts, economic impacts 15 of a proposed power station on the Town of Neu k 16 Haven. It is the town's opinion that the 17 Company's applica tion is lacking in de tail and ]
18 specificity in certain ar2as regarding impacts 19 on the town. The re f ore , the coun has re tained 20 Pickard and Anderson to study these impacts s o 21 that it can be properly prepared for the con-22 struction and operation of the proposed f acility 23 pending approval of the Public Service Commission.
2137 336 1
PassoNT RamonTINo Scavact. INc. l
20
- s 1
The proposed study will provide a more 2
de tailed assessment of the potential socio-3
, . economic impacts on the Town of Neu Haven and 4
explore solutions designed to minimize or eliminate 5
any adverse impacts and enhance any positive 8
be ne fits . Recommendations will be provided to 7
guide the town so that it can be properly pre-a
- { pared for the possible construction and operation 8
of a large electric generating facility, be it 10 based on nuclear or fossil fuels.
11 The proposed study will further assist 12 a the Siting Board in determining if the proposed 13 proj ec t is in the public inte re s t . The Applicant 's 14 Environmental Re port concludes that there will 15 be minimal impact on the Town of New Haven.
' 16 However, due to its size, history and condition 17 the Town is not pre pare d to accommoda te the 18 impacts of a project which dwarfs normal town 19 operations, regardless of the comparative para-20 me te r use d . Unleas the town is prepared to
' 21 manage the resulting impacts for which it is 22
- re s p ons ible , severe short term and long term 23 socio-economic impacts will result.
2137 337 PansoNT RtronTINo Sanvice. INc.
21 l-m I Through discussions with town officials ,
2 several specific needs were identitied requiring 3 further study. These include:
4 Dire c t impact on town roads.
5 Dire c t impact on town drainage facilities 6 Indirect impacts on town land use.
7 Indirect impacts on groundwater o a resources in the town.
(
9 Indirect impacts on was teuater disposal 10 conditions in the town.
11 Direct and indirect impacts on the 12 town's economic condition. -
13 We have provided within our proposal 14 a detailed discussion of each of these p r o ble ms .
15 Further our proposal described in 13 de tail the scope of work uhich would be under-17 taken to analyze each of the areas and develop -
la proposed solutions related there to.
19 We estimate that si:: months will he 20 required to comple te this study. However, ne 21 have the capacity to shorten that time to four 22 months if desired by the hearing schedule . -
U We have assembled e team of people 2137 338 PAnsont RErontsno Sunvics.1Nc.
22 1
from our s taff which will serve unde r my direction, 2
my personal direction and the resumes of each 3
of these individuals are included in de tail in 4 the proposal, 5
Our firm has a broad range of planning 6
experience which qualifies it for this assignment 7 and likewise, this material is de tailed in the a proposal.
-(
9 Based on the needs of the Town and the 10 detail which they require , we es tima te the cost 11 of our proposed study to be $49,300 and an 2
12 additional sua of $2,000 is requested to provide 13 for professional testimony following comple tion 14 of the study.
15 JUDGE MATIAS: Are you aware there is 18 a $25,000 licit?
17 MR, ANDERSON: I an aware of that fact. .
18 I am also aware of the fact that the changes in 18 the law provide for increasing of that amount 28 and I could not ascertain as to which rules 21 under which - -
22
- JUDGE MATIAS
- Not in this p roce c d ing, .
23 MR , ANDERS ON : I see.
2137 339
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JUDGE MATIAS: Applications filed after -
[ .
1 ,
2 January 1, 1979, the limit went up and I am not ;. a
^
- 3 even sure you could still but, h owe ve r , I think 4 it is $150,000 but I could be wrong. }.
^
- 5 MR. SCHUTT
- That is correct.
i-
- if 6 JUDGE MATIAS : But this application ".
c 7 will be $25,000. All right. I didn't mean to .
x.9
'(
- 8 interrup t y ou , Mr . Ande rs on, y s
4 MR. ANDERSON: I have comple ted it.
$- 3 =
,3
-T at 10 JUDGE MATIAS: All right,. fine and you -
a t ;,
11 have the proposal that you are going to give to me. _:
'. 12 MR, ANDERSON: Right, g Ali right. Thank you,
,' 13 JUDGE MATIAS:
14 very much. ,
Mr. Schipper, I have a question f or y ou .
15 >
+ <
16 Is the Town of New Haven prepared to pay the 17 difference betueen the $49,000 or whatever final _
(*{
18 figure it comes to and the grant that could s n
Z 18 possibly be made by this Board? .
~ ,
MR. SCHIPPER: That is a serious p
- 1 -
.4 (
4
^
^
21 question that I could not give you a de finita
- 22 answer to right now without consulting with tha
,] '.
,,3 Town Board. My understanding is that should we 1, ,
2137 340 11 .
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a 1 be able to obtain funds , we would work with what
.' 2 we could ge t. However, the Board should approve -
3 the extra expenditure . That would have to be 4 taken up with the Board.
5 DR. SCHWARTZ: But you can't make a 6 commitment at this time.
7 MR, SCHIPPER: I cannot make any commit-
.f a ment now , sir, not until I confer with the Board.
9 JUDGE MATIAS : Okay, thank you.
10 The Village , Mr. Mowry.
11 MR. MOWRY : Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE MATIAS: Is the Village of 13 Mexico going to make an application for funding?
14 MR . MCWRY : Yes and has.
15 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. You can is speak to your position now if you are ready.
17 MR. MOWRY : I will speak to that now, J 18 JUDGE MATIAS : While Mr. Mowry is 19 coming forward, I gather from the appearances a that I took this morning, that the re are no other 21 villages, towns, counties, cities re presented
, 22 here this morning tha t would be making applications 22 f or fu:.ds , is tiat right?
2137 341 PansoMT RtromTING SERvect. INC.
25 n
I (No response) 2
. JUDGE MATIAS : There are only two -
3 parties appearing here today, the Town of New 4
Haven and the village of Mexic o , is that right?
5 All right. I got no response but I assume that 6
is right.
7 All right, Mr. Mowry.
- 8 MR. MOWRY : The Village previous ly
(
8 filed under date of Fe bruary 17 an applica tion 10 and I would jus t - -
11 JUDGE MATIAS: Yes, you did. I have it ,
12 ;
sir.
13 MR. MOWRY : All right. That application 14 was for funding in the amount of $20,000 to cover 15 the cost of expert witness tes timony and cover 16 legal fees to a firm of attorneys in Washington, 17 D.C. which the village would like to re tain and J 18 which the village has corresponded per copy of the 19 le ttar from the Sheldon, Harmon firm in Washing ten 20 which is annexed to the application and the
- 21 village has talked with the people mentioned in 22 the application as far as availability and possibility of tes tifying as expe rts .
2137 342 PansoNT ReponflNo Samvict. INc.
26 es.
t i
Now, the village's primary conce rn is l 2 with the safe ty aspec ts of the plant and the .
3 location of the plant at this site and the 4 village has a popula tion of 1,660 and the wes t-5 bounds of the village are loca ted one and a half 6
miles east of the eastbounds of the proposed New 7 Haven site . The popula tion be tween the eas tbound s a
of the proposed site and the village is of very 9 low density and our estimate would be tha t it 10 would be in the neighborhood of 100 people 11 be tween the intervening area.
12 Our concern is with the danger of the 13 re le a se at low level radiation over a period of 14 time and the cumulative e ffec t there of from the 15 proposed plants at this site as well as the 16 cumulative e f fe c t of the low level release which 17 might come from these plants in combination with 18 the exis ting nuclear f acilities and the County of 19 Oswego consisting of three other plants , two of 2 which are in ope ra tion at a point a p pr oxima te ly 21 eight miles wes t of the village of Mexico and M based upon our readings, the re is a measurable l
23 amount of low level radiation release within a l
2137 343 PAmSONT REPCatsNo Stevict. INC.
a.
- 27
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I 1 radius of five miles of an exis ting site and the
. 2 lite ra ture of Niagara Mohawk which ope ra tes in '
3 one of the exis ting nucle ar plants indic a te s as 4 such.
5 Dr. John G offman, who is one of the e expert witnesses lis ted, has previously tes tified 7 rather extensively around the country and he is a a profess or =eritorious of medical physics at s the University of California at Be rke le y .
10 JUDGE MATIAS : His name again is - -
11 MR. MOWRY : John G of fman , G-o- f-f-=-a-n , ,
12 and there is an article concerning his testimony -
13 in Harper's Magazine of January 1979.
14 Sis ter Bertell, Rosalee Bertell has 15 also previously tes tified in hearings in the 16 S ta te of New York with respect to s tatis tical 17 analysis of health figures and the impact of low -
la level radiation and Arthur Tamplin is , as I under-19 stand it, a former employee of the Nuc le ar A Regulatory Commission, now an employee of the
- 21 Na tural Res ource s Council in Washington and will 22 be pre pared to tes tify to the issue and issues of .
23 s torage of high level nuclear was te , the p rob le ms 2137 344 Psnsont REroninna SEnvect. Inc.
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[ 3 4 y111 age of Mexico.
5 Apart from the s afe ty as pec ts which are 6 the prime concern of the village and I would ,
7 submit that in that regard, the village's popula-a tion of 1,660 is the most concentrated populatior
. s within a radius of five miles of the proposed 1
~
10 s ite and is also, according to the documents 11 previously filed, in an area which will 'ce crossed 12 ,
by the proposed or projected plume path from the
- la release from the site. The village is concerned 14 about the natural e ffects of changes in climate 15 resulting upon the re le a se of, as I understand it ,
' ~; 18 28,000 gallons per minute of water vapor from the, i
- 17 two plants at the proposed site and what e f fec t ,
y 18 if any, that will have upon the weather and
.- 19 climate in the Village of Mexico vis-a-vis more s
20 rain or snow and we are now in a snow belt and a
f ', 21 very, very serious snowf alls in the wintertime .
22 We are concerned about the accumulation of d
23 grecter amounts of snowfall, J". 2137 345 e _
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1 In addition, we are also concerned 2 about the long run ef fect of the cost of decom-o , 3 missioning the proposed plants at the time that 4 their use is discontinuti and also the impact C upon the daily lives of the residents of the 6 village as a result of the projected traf fic 7 increase through the village from construction a 8 pe rs ennel and ma terial which would be transportec
- 8 on Route 104 which is the main artery going eas tf 10 west connecting Inters tate Route 81 to the plant
- - 11 s ite . -
12 We feel that the hiring of the firm of 13 Sheldon, Harmon, Roisman & Weiss would be in the 14 best inte re s t of the village because they are 15 experienced in such proceedings , that they have 9 (
18 previously appeared with respect to various .
17 licensing proceedings of nucle ar f acilities at -
18 the Vermont Yankee , Seabrook, Montague, Indian 18 Point, River Bend , Pilgrim and Charles town 20 nuclear plants and the Barnwe 11, South Carolina 21 and West Valley, New York fue1 reprocessing 22
- f acilitie s and surely if these plants are built, 23 they are going to have an effect and impact upon s
2137 346
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the drainage and roads but the gre a te s t danger
,- 2 and greates t possible risk in my opinion is that -
3 to the health and safe ty of the village, the 4
health and safe ty of the residents of the area, 5 including those of the Village of Mexico.
6 JUDGE MATIAS : Now, stay in place, if 7 you would , Mr. Moury . Nou, are you familiar uith f
a the opinion rendered by Judge Suss in Case 80003, 9
I believe it was with respect to the proprie ty of 10 using funds for attorneys?
11 MR. MCWRY : No.
12 JUDGE MATI.'S: Well, ict me j us t tall ".
13 you very brie fly tha t he concluded that there 14 was an application in that case for all or a 15 portion of the fund for attorneys' fees and he 16 concluded tha t that would be not a proper alloca-17 ~
tion of that fund, that e::perts and consultants .
18 contemplated by the s ta tu te we re those to discuss 10 and bring to the record, matters of suSs tance and 20 I wondered if you had any, as an attorney your-21 self, do you have any th ough t about that?
2:
MR . MCURY : My though t is tha t the ,
M village and those a ffec ted are mos t imme d ia te ly 2137 347 PansoNT RcPC A7tNo Scavice. INc.
31 8
1 affec ted by the plant, should be e n title d to use l 2 '
the money in the manner which it feels is most 3
, e f fe c tive for the purpose of protecting itself 4
and it is the opinion of the village that the 5
mos t e ffective use which could be made of the 8
funds would be the re tention of compe tent counsel .
7 Now, whe ther that counsel is a profes-a sional engineer or a professional attorney, in 8
my opinion, it should not be a matter for 10 dis tinc tion. I fee l :ha t based upon the pa pe r II qualifica tions of the attorneys which has been 12 annexed to the applicatic,, that ther.r need is ~
I3 a p p a re n t . The experience of the village itself 14 with respect to such applications and such 15 proce dure s is nil. We probably will never inter-16 vene in another proceeding and will never 17 probably be affected by another plant other than I 18 this one and I hones tly feel that compe tent 19 counsel is important to the village and that a
compe tent counsel, in the opinion of the village,
- 21 would consis t of experienced legal counsel 22 experienced in the conduct of such hearings and -
in the introduction of evidence and cross s
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1 in the primary site but also in the alte rna te
, 2 s ite and $25,000 doesn' t go an awful long way -
3 in paying for the type of subs tantive te s timony 4 tha t a couple of the parties here have s ugge s te d s is needed. If attorneys' fe e s we re to be included e in tha t $25,000, it would spread the fund even 7 thinner and along with the legal conclusion of 8 Judge Suss, based on the plain re ading of the i
e statute and the practical problem of not having to that much money in the fund, it seems that 11 attorneys' fees are not re imburs able .
12 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. sny other -
13 Mr. Feirs tein.
14 MR. FEIRSTEIN: I think it is ins truc-Is tive to note that the la te s t ame ndment to
( 16 Article VIII s pecifically s tates that the munici-17 pal fund is not to be used for legal fees , for -
18 representation. There has been some discussicn 19 amongst the legal s taffs of the various agencies 2 of whe ther or not a dis tinc tion could be made
." 21 be tween paying lawye rs ' fees for consultation 22 purposes as opposed to representation, actual 23 representation. That issue has not been res olved 2137 350 PansCNT REPO47tNQ SERVICE, lNC,
34 x
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ye t and that is going to be left up to the Siting Board itself when it adopts new regulations.
2 3 S o, it is unclear whe ther or not a distinction 4
to that can be made but it seems rather clear s that the le gis la tive intention in the law 6 amended is clearly not to use the fund for 7 representation by attorneys.
8 JUDGE MATIAS: That.1k you , Mr. Feirs teir .
9 Has any other attorney given any thought to this 10 problem?
11 (No response) 12 JUDGE MATIAS : All right, I guess not.
13 Mr . Mow ry , in what town or village are 14 you located?
15 MR. MCWRY: That is the Town of Me::ico.
16 JUDGE MATIAS : Is the re any possibility 17 of you ge tting with the Town of New Haven and 1 18 combining your resources or not? I was hoping 19 that, excuse my ignorance, I didt.'t know what 20 town you were in but if New Haven, if that would 21 be a logical j oinder - -
22 MR. MOWRY : We ll, I would say that that 23 would be a matter for the Boards of Trus tees to 2137 351 PassoNr REPomTING Samvict. INC.
35 I
1 decide, No. 1
~
2 No. 2, the perce ption of where in te re s ts 3 lies in the matter may not coincide and from the 4
point of view of the Village of Mexico's per-5 ception, being in the plume path with a prevail-6 ing wes terly wind , the safe ty risk is greates t 7
to those of us who are downuind from this plant, 8
<( whereas the plant is in the eas terly or north-9 easterly corner of the Township of New Haven and 10 the winds will be blowing , mos t of them from the 11 west and northwest and I think that the village's .
12 position is that its safe ty is its paramount -
13 concern and the application that I just re ce ive d 14 from the Town of New Haven indicates that is economic and social matters are its concern and 16 I do know that the regulations say that those 17 with an adverse inte re s t are to be given due (-
18 consideration and do note the use of the te rm 19 consultant and I would res pec tfully submit that 20 a part of the services which might be furnished 21 by this law firm in Washington would be those of U
, consultation and advice and s teering and to that -
M e x ten t I would s till reques t that you consider 2137 352 PanscNT REPomTING Stmvict. INC.
36 1
making an allocation based on that.
2 ~
Based on our discussion, apparently 3
the issue is uhether legal fees as such are 4
allowable . If you should decide that legal fees 3
are such or not, I would reques t tha t you con-6 sider them on a consulting basis and I would 7
request that you differentiate and allow soce e
portion of the fund for expert witnesses dealing 8
with the issues of health and from the local 10 point of view for the Village of Mexico.
11 JUDGE FMTIAS : Well, as Mr. Flynn 12 ~
pointed out, the re is little money available and 13 there will be a number of demands ceing made upor 14 this rund and to the extent enat I can consolidate 15 inte re s t , I think tnat would oe to everyone's
~-
18 ce ne tzt . 1r you could j oin witn any ocner 17 municipality in this area, the money would
{
18 obviously go further.
18 MR. MOWRY : 1 would say, I am not 20 authorized to speak as far as a j oinder is con-
' og
~
cerned.
22 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Did I n
ove rlook some thing or did you not mention Mr.
2137 353 PassoNr R4PomTING Stavect. INC.
37
-s 1 Mancuso this morning?
2 MR. MOWRY:
, I did not mention Mr. -
3 Mancuso. He is lis te d . I have talked with Mr.
4 Mancuso on the te le ph one . He is affiliated with 5 the University of Pittsburgh, School of Public 6 He alth . He discussed the matters with me. He 7 has projected s tudies in the are a which frankly 8 have not been read by me or perhaps I am more 9 familiar to the Public Service Commission than 10 they are to me at this time. We would like to 11 call upon him and as the application s tated, the 12 listing of those four witnesses is ... inte nde d -
13 to be nece ss arily exclusive . We would like a 14 fund of money to cover these four witnesses or 15 those of like background and experience and l 18 qualify three or four witnesses.
17 JUDGE MATIAS : Can you te ll me wha t -
18 the anticipated cost would be for each of the I8 f our , Mr . Mowry ?
20 MR. MOWRY : I anticipate a cost would 21
- be transportation to and from the hearing and
" the expenses while in attendance at the hearing 23 which I would think would be one nigh t ' s lodging 2137 354 PassoNT Rgront No Stav:C E. INC.
33 1
and I e r,,e c t me a ls . The specific ra te , the only 2
indication I had is from Dr. Goffman uho has 3
indicated in the small fraction of time that he 4
has allotted for making a living, he charges at 3
the ra te of $50.00 per hour or $300.00 per day 6
and I would submit that that would be a fair 7
figure, that two days ' time ought to be allocated
' 8 per witness at the rate of $300.00 per day.
8 Plus expenses.
JUDGE MATIAS :
10 MR. MOWRY : Plus expenses.
11 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Mr. Mancuso 12 a
is a PhD? '
I MR. MOWRY : Yes, he is.
I4 JUDGE MATIAS : And he is at the 15 University of Pittsburgh.
V 16 MR. M0 WRY : University of Pitts burgh.
17 -
JUDGE MATIAS:
And his area of exper- _
18 tise is what, sir?
8 MR. MOWRY : He is medical and statisti-a
. cal and I understand he is also an FD.
21 JUDGE MATIAS : He is also an 30.
62 MR. MOWRY : Yes. '
23 JUDGE MATIAS : All right and Mr.
, 2137 555 Panson? RapostlNo Samvtet, INC.
39 1 Tamplin, is he a PhD also?
.' 2 MR. MOWRY: No, he is not. -
3 JUDGE MATIAS : What is his area of 4 expertise?
5 MR . MOWRY : Physics and engineering 6 as I unders tand it, based upon his pas t e::perience 7 in analyses for the Nucle ar Regula tory Commission ,
8 JUDGE MATIAS : All right and Sis ter 9 Bertell, she is a nun.
10 MR. MOWRY : Yes, she is.
11 JUDGE MATIAS : Ans is she a PhD?
12 MR. MONRY: Yes, she is. -.
13 JUDGE MATIAS : And her area of 14 ~expe r tis e is what?
15 MR. MOWRY : Statistical studies.
T 16 She has been on a tri-s ta te le uke mia re se arch 17 committee in New York, New Jersey and -
18 Pennsylvania on a de tailed health impac t or 19 exposure to low level radiation and nas a very 20 large sampling.
- 21 JUDGE MATIAS : You already Indicated 22
, Mr. Tamplin is a PnD ,and is at the University or M California, s
2137 356 PansoNT RgPomisNo Sgavect. INc.
40 I
2 JUDGE MATIAS : MD, I am sorry , 20 als o, 3
y MR. MOWRY : Yes.
4 JUDGE MATIAS : An MD rather than a PhD.
6 JUDGE MATIAS : Does the S taff have any 7
questions of the Town of New Haven that I have
' 8 overlooked?
8 MR. GREY : ,
We have no questions.
10 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Do you have 11 anything? -
12 '
DR. SCHWARTZ: I have one question, 13 just some thing tha t you said uas unclear and 14 that is , you feel low radiation leve ls , based on 15 your readings, do you mean literature readings
(
16 or actual data readings? .
17 ^
MR. MOWRY: Lite ra ture readings. _
I8 DR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
18 MR. MOWRY : And that in a personal 20 s ta te me nt based upon a general view f rom uhat I 21 ge t from the Village Board of Trus tees .
~
, DR. SCHWARTZ: Fine.
23 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, thank you, 2137 357 l ....o~e.~..,~.......,~c. I
41 s
I 1 Mr. Mowry.
- ~
2 MR. SCHUTT: Your Honor, I wonder if I 3 may make a small comment.
4 JUDGE MATIAS: Yes.
5 MR. SCHUTT: It has occurred to me to G some extent that the request for funding from the 7 Town of Mexico - -
8 JUDGE MATIAS : The Village of Mexico.
8 MR. SCHUTT: The Village of Mexico, 10 excuse me, raises an interes ting problem in unis 11 proceeding and that is the division of authority 12 with respect to radiological release s be tween the i 13 NRC and the inte re s t of the S tate of New York 14 and without, of course , knouing precisely uhat 15 the proposed witnesses would tes tify to, it woulc 16 appear to me that that tes timony primarily is 17 directed tcward the NRC proceeding anc I ques tion 18 s omewhat uhe the r or not the extent to which the 18 S ta te of New York might use this fund to sponsor 20 witnesses be f ore a body, another body, not a
' 21 State body. It is the j urisdiction which is the 22 It may be somewhat pramature.
. question. .
23 JUDGE MATIAS : Well, it is. I really 2137 358 PanscNT REPORTING SERVICE. INC,
42 I cannot address that, Mr. Schutt, right now but
." 2 that is a matter to take up a little la te r is the
~
3 Possibility that this would be an NRC hearing 4 also, in other words , a j oint record.
5 MR. SCHUTT: Yes. Of course, we do e get into a whole problem of keeping track of 7 which issues are appropriately be fore which ;ody.
7 8 JUDGE MATIAS : There is really not much s more I can say.
10 MR. SCHUTT: I j us t ra 4. sed the ques tion .
11 I am not sure I know what the answer is.
=
12 MR. FEIRSTEIN: I would j ust like to 13 make a request that the representatives of 14 Mexico and New Haven supply te with copies of 15 these reques ts. I would also like to remind all k is of the in te rve nors that whenever papers are 17 served in this proceeding that all of the parties ,
18 lis ted receive copies of them so that e::peditious 19 discussion can take place.
20 JUDGE MATIAS: Well, you are be ing a
- 21 little bit prema ture , Mr. Fe irs te in . When it M comes to matters of substance, yes, I will see M to it but right now this is a matter that a
~
2137 359 PAnsoNT REPORTENa Senvscs. Inc.
43 d'%
I decision is going to be made very brie fly and be made on this record and this is really, in e ffe c t,
. 2 3
the application and the material that we re ce ive 4
today but I don't want to place too big a burden 5
on the villages and towns of dis tributing copies .
6 So, if anyone needs anything, they might approach 7
them during a recess but I am not going to ask 8
them to direct them right now.
(
9 Yes, sir.
10 MR. DEYLE: Your Honor, Robert Deyle 11 from the County of Oswego Planning Department.
12 Your Honor, I left just a moment ago when you -i la were discussing whether or not the re we re any 14 other parties that were seeking funds .
15 JUDGE MATIAS : No, not jus t parties, 18 s
MR. DEYLE: Municipal partie s .
17 JUDGE MATIAS : Municipal partie s , right. J 18 MR. DEYLE : The City of Osuego did make 19 an application and I le f t to contact the City of 20 Oswego to' find out, if, in fact, they were aware
- 21 that they had to be here this morning and they 22 were not. They are now here and I would lika to 23 ask that you give Mr. Salog
- :n opportunity to s
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1 present the C ity o f Os ue g o ' n application for 2 -
municipal funding.
3 WGE MATIAS: I certainly will. I an 4 going to hear from nia cut uhat bothers me is 5
that the City of Oswego did nor . 1e ive a copy 6
of the Prehearing Conference Notica that set 7
Out there in great de tail what we were going to a
do. It always grieves =e when I tind some body 9
didn' t rece ive some tning that was dis semina te d 10 so wide ly .
11 MR. S AL OG A : On, my name is Eugene 12 ~
Saloga and - -
13 JUDGE MATIAS : Would you like to come 14 ~
forward, sir, so the reporter can hear you 15 ac cura te ly ?
4 16 MR. SALOGA: Sure ly . I would like to 17 say this , if this bothers you, it bothers ce, 18
}
a five minute. notice also because what occurred 19 is, on a transitional basis and I haven' t been 20 able to piece it altoge ther ye t but a resolution 21 was duly passed by the City of Oswego Common 22
, Council, 2;
RESOLVED, whe re as , the New York S ta te PAmsoNT REpoRTINo Sgmvict. INc.
45 O
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E le c tric and Gas Corporation has proposed
. 2 .
the cons truction of a nuclear power electric 3
l generation plant in the Town of New Haven, 4
New York and 5
WHEREAS, cons truction of said facility G
has a direct impact on the economy and 7
county property ta:: structure for the 8
( citizens of the City of Oswego, now 9
the re fore be it 10 RESOLVED, that the Mayor be and he 11 hereby is authorized to file the attached 12 a
" Notice of Intent" so that the City of '
13 Oswego may act as an intervenor in the 14 proceedings related to the construction of 15 said nuclea ; power facility at the New Haven
(--
16 s ite .
17 Then, there is a le tter da ted Fe bruary _
~
18 9th, directed to Mr. Samuel R. Madis on , Se cre tary 19 to the PSC, a le tter was transmitted from the 20 Mayor of the City of Oswego to the best of my 21 knowle dge re q.ue s ting , in fact, to be an intervenor.
22 Now, to the best of my knowledge , from U
the transmittal of that le tter from the City of
( -
.. . .o ~ , a . 1, ~ . . . . c .. > ~ o. 2138 002
46 s
1 Oswego to Mr. Madis on, our office namely, the 2 Community Development Office has heard nothing -
3 fr a the PSC.
4 This is not the important reason, 5 though, why I am here. The important reason 6 is to speak in behalf of the city and in behalf 7 of the Mayor as to why we feel an economic input a regarding the hearings is important.
g It is tuofold, primarily we have 10 witnessed now several construction lockouts and 11 slowdowns, a very direct impact on construction 12 work on power plants. We feel just the construc- --
13 tion work alone is germane to the e:onomic 14 conside rations , e specially as f ar as the C ity o f 15 Oswego is concerned, i is There is another aspect too. While it 17 does not directly affect the City of Oswego, we -
18 respectfully submit that this should be germane 19 to the hearings too. We have heard quite a bit m recently and over the past four years that it is 21 not going to be an unusual phenomenon for the n future of the mix of power, especially the 2i::
. n of power that require s high produc tivity and
...~..~..,~......c..,~c. 2138 003
47 I de pendability . We in Osuego are very proud that 2 we have a very fine fossil fuel plant. '-
You can 3
see the stacks outside of this windou which 4 produces a high degree of power. We are not 5 nega ting the importance of fossil fuels . H ouave r ,
6 we are raising a concern uhich I think should 7 be stated publicly and everywhere else that until 8
technology develops nuclear power plants in their 9
own right, this could and uill ;e a blessing in 10 disguise. Millions of gallons of oil right now 11 in Oswego are being expended for the production 12 "
of electrical power. Part of these aillions of 13 gallons j us t in one sloudown are attributed to 14 the shutdown of the James 2. Fitzpatrick Plant 15 and I uould like to express that we are not
( 16 stressing, in the mix of power occurring to our 17 technology, ue are not stressing, ignoring -
18 fossil fuel pJ ants but we are stressing that 19 there is a need to evaluate the economic input 2 both locally and 'the economics of mix of rau
- 21 resources, natural resources in considering 22 siting and cons truction of nuclear pouer plants .
U Our primary concern from the City of PansONT REpomTING Samv C E. INC.
2138 004
AG 1
Oswegots standpoint, however, is the local 2
economic input not only to our city but our 3
, , c ounty, 'and not only of cons truc tion work but the 4
j obs that are permanently generated not only a t 5
the plant itself but the ancillary supply 6
facilities that are offered af ter the plant is 7
constructed. This does have an impac t. Our a
city and our county is in the p ove rty leve l are a .
9 If you check our SMS A with other areas throughout 10 the S ta te , throughout the Unite d S ta te s , you vill 11 see that we have a definite need for economic .
12 development re gardle s s of uhat ty pe of economic 13 development it is and you check our unemployment 14 rates, you will sce tha t the City of Oswego and 13 the County usually runs at le as t a mininum of 18 one percent beyond the unemployme n t rate for the 17 rest of the State of New York. '
18 We are respectfully s tating and ue 18 apologize for not having had the opportunit; to 2
follow the pattern, we quite agree with you that 21 was necessary for this particular hearing but 22
, what we are trying to do is, as a city, to say -
23 that there is a de finite need to analyze and
,.....~m..,~.......,~c.
2138 005
49 I e valua te the economic input of these particular l 2 plants and the al te rna tive s , viable a lte rna tive s , -
3 that they are not building these plants to 4 maintain the same ty pe of economy in the same 5 type of electrical power output. At this time 6 I would like to backup these vords that I have 7 jus t s tated because I have been caught offguard, 8 to also invite one of our Aldermen, Alderman 9 Bradshaw to may be give some comments as to what 10 his feelings are regarding the need for the City 11 of Oswego to be represented as far as the input 12 and the economic needs of these ty pe s of i 13 facilities to our municipality.
14 Alderman Bradshaw.
15 JUDGE MATIAS : Bafore you leave, accord -
s 16 ing to my records, I wrote to your counse l, 17 Mr. McGrath on March 1st, 1979, the City of -
18 Oswego, 38 East Utica S tree t, Oswego, New York.
19 MR. S ALOG A : We ll the n , I apologine.
M JUDGE MATIAS : Well, no, maybe s ome thing
, 21 happened but according to my records I wrote to 22
, Mr. McGrath so whatever but I would like for you .
M to check and if you are not receiving correspondenec PAmsoNT REPORTINo Scavect. INc.
2138 006
50 1
from us and let me know immediately because I 2
want to see tha t you are informed.
3
, MR. S ALOG A : I will de finitely make 4
sure that this communication gap is corre c ted.
5 JUDGE MATIAS : Fine. Could you spell s your last name?
7 MR. S ALOG A : My name is Eugene G.
8 S-a-1-o g-a and my capacity is Community 8
Development Coordina' tor for the City cf Osuego, Ic New York. I am he re on behalf of the Mayor and 11 also in that I don' t speak in behalf of the 12 a
City as an appointed city official, I do think 13 that a few comments from an elected city official ,
14 Alderman Bradshaw would be ge rmane here and I 15 would request that.
IS JUDGE MATIAS: While Mr. Bradshau is 17 assuming his position here , le t me say this, I8 you have had little or no notice of what we vere 19 doing here apparently and the Notice of Prehearing i 20 Conference called upon municipalities who vere 21 seeking funds to give us a rundown of the e::pe rts that they had in mind re taining , the background 23 of those e::pe r ts , the are a of e::pe rtise that s
....~, .~.,~.e._ m., .
2138 007
51 2 they would be tes tifying in, the appro::ima ta cost ,
2 this kind of thing. Are you in a position to -
3 give me anything in those areas at all today?
4 MR. S AL OG A : I think in twenty-four s hours we could.
s JUDGE MATIAS : If we took a short 7 recess, ten or fif teen minute s , would tha t help
, s you to give me anything more than you have t
g already? I hoped to make this decision based 10 upon the record that we are making here today 11 and we are making on Thursday. Now, we will be ,
in a Prehearing Conference on Thursday in Albany 12 -~.
13 to hear people and talk to the municipalities in 14 the S tuyve s ant area and perhaps if you have any is kind of an input and I will be talking to you is during the recess and show you the kind of thing 17 that we want, if you could get it to te 'o y Z_
18 Thursday or Friday, would that be possible?
19 MR, S AL OG A : Yes, it would.
20 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Would it 21 help if we took a short recess at this point to
, u e na ble you to discuss with Mr. Bradshaw what .
23 your interests are or - -
PAmsoNr REPCMTING SERylCE. INC.
32 1
1 MR, S ALOG A : It would help, yes.
. 2 '
JUDGE MATIAS: All right. We ll, we 3
have been in session for appro:cimately an hour 4
anyway. We will take a short recess of about 3
ten minutes or fif teen minutes and you don't 6
have to make a comple te s ta tement today if you 7
didn' t have the notice but maybe you could at 8
j least give me some idea and then maybe flush it 8
out and get it to me as quickly as you can by the 10 end of the week if possible.
12 JUDGE MATIAS : We will take a short 13 recess, 14 Before we take the recess, le t me take 15 the op por tunity , I want to discuss with s ome of 18 the non-municipal parties and I think Ecology 17 Action is one, I don't have the names right in f ron t o f me now , there were three or four groups 18 and I would like to discuss the possibility of 90 your getting toge ther and combining your assets
. 21 and interes ts and seeing if you could make a 22
. single presentation, if you plan to make a 23 presentation at all, not this morning but uhen s.
~ , . ~ ' " ' ' " " ~ " " " " ' " ' ~ '
2138 009
53 I the hearings begin. I assume you are going to 2
make a presentation, that you are going to call 3
witnesses and rather than having three or four 4
of these ecology minded groups making individual 5
p?esentations, it occurs to me that it might be 6
to your advantage and certainly to ours if you 7
could combine ~your interes ts and combine your 8
asse ts and maybe work toge ther and make one 9 uniform presentation and let's discuss that 10 possibility when we come back but I thought that 11 during the recess, that perhaps you might get 2
12 together and see if there is any area whe 2 you 13 can j oin toge rher and bring your interes ts 14 together and I think that your presentation 15 would become much more e ffe ctive , I would think 16 but I want to hear from you when we cone aack.
17 All right. _
18 (WHE REUPON , the above proceedings were 19 rece ssed for fif teen minutes . )
m 21 JUDGE FMTIAS : All right, le t's g o 22 back on the record, please. Come to order, M
p le a se ,
s.
~ ,. ~ , ~ _ ,, ~ . . . .m c .. i ~ c.
2138 010
54 c
I 1 A small housekeeping thing. Mr. Schutt ,
. ; do you have the affidavits of publication -
3 informing of this?
4 MR. SCHUTT: Yes, your Honor, I do.
5 I hand you proof of publication of the notice of s this Prehearing Conference published on March 29th 7 in the Palladian Times published in the City of
. 8 Oswego, the Pos t S tandard published in Syracuse ,
e the Times Union published in Albany, the Regis ter to S tar published in the City of Hudson and the 11 Catskill Daily Mail published in Catskill, 12 New York and ask that these be included within -
13 the record of this proceeding.
14 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you, Mr. Schutt.
15 I will include them and I say to the representa-16 tives from the City of Osucgo and to all the 17 par tie s , these notices appeared in the local -
la paper and those of you who =ay not ge t notice 19 of some thing, we try to send copies to everybody 2 but watch your local news, apers particularly in 21 the Oswego area and in the Columbia are a , Huds on, 22 Catskills, that area.
, When we begin the public M hearings, there will be large notices so watch p ..o~r arroarma semec. ~c.
2138 011
55 1 your paper and you will be apprised at least two 2 times of the place and da te .
3 For the City of Oswego, gentlemen, 4 have you been able to get any thing toge ther in 5 the few minutes you had?
6 MR. S ALOG A : Yes. In the short period 7 of time and 1 appreciate your indulgence on this
, a but we have been in contact and we do have some e names and as I le f t , I was about to introduce 10 Mr. Bradshaw and he is an elected official and 11 I would like for him to go ove r s ome of the names .
12 As I stated earlier, our - - from the standpoint 13 of economics , we feel it is important what the 14 alte rna tive s are. We talked of nuclear prolifera -
15 tion but I think we have got to be most concerned is with the continued proliferation of oil. This 17 should be the maj or economic concern in the 18 United S tates right now, at the present tice 19 but at this time I would like to introduce 2 Alderman Bradshaw who will give you the naces.
21 MR. BRADSHAW: Good Morning! I vant
, n to thank you for the opportunity to let ce speah .
M here on behalf of Oswego and its residents and m . ._ . . ~ .., . . . . . c .. s c.
2138 012
/
56 f
- 1 1 also for giving us the interaission that allowed
- ~
2 us to compile a feu name s for you.
3 The first name that I uould like to 4 present to you gentlecen is Hans A. Bathe,
.- 5 H-a-n-s A. B-a-t-h-e and Mr. Bathe is a PhD 6 and he also is a Nobel Prizewinner in Physics .
7 I would also lihe to provide the name
(,J ' 8 of Norman C . Rasmus sen , R-a- s -c-u- s - s -e -n .
5 He is the Direc tor of the Reactor Sa fe ty S tudy.
10 I would also like to submit the name of 11 Roger W. A. Le gass ie , L-e g-a-s-s-i-e, and he is 12 the Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Progrannin ;
13 Analysis of the United S tate s De par t=ent of 14 Energy in Washington, D.C.
15 N ow , I will go 'cack over them, the
18 lis t again.
17 We expect Mr. Bathe will express the la needs for nuclear power related to the oil crisis 19 and the shortage of oil and Mr. Rasmussen will 20 speak to the safe ty of the nuclear s tations and 21 Mr. Legassie who is also a nuclear engineer will 3
. speak for the whole needs in this area and we U are stressing the economic issues involved here t-PAmsoNT REpohTING SERYlCE. INC,
51 s
3 1
and what we want these gentlemen to pre sent to
. 2 you is that without these, there would be economi :
3 . chaos in this area and gentlemen I would like to 4 present one more name to you cnd it is Pe te 5
Brennan is the Director of the S ta te of New York 6 for Jobs and Energy and he is also a President 7 of the New York S tate Building and Trades
, 8 Construction Department and he also was for=er 1
Secre tary of Labor .nd those vere the names we 10 would like to submit to you, sir.
11 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, now, Mr.
~
12 Bradshaw, have you contacted all of these people 13 about participating in this proceeding? g 14 MR. BRADSHAW: We have contac ted then 15 and we are sure we can ge t them.
16 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Now, 17 would they tes tify? -
18 MR. BRADSHAW: Yes, sir.
19 JUDGE MATIAS : Would they assist you 20 with cross examination of a witness or an inter-
. 21 vening uitness?
22' MR. BRADSHAW: Yes, as e:: pert witnesses ,
23 JUP' MATIAS : All right. Do you have
. . . . . _ , , ~ " - " ' ~ '
2138 014
. -e 53 rm 1 any es tima te of wha t the cost for each would be? !
. 2 MR. BRADSHAW : Sir, we would beg your .
3 indulgence probably for two days to put together 4 some figures on that. Roughly they are all 5 $50.00 per hour but we will give you - - uhen ue 6 give you the figure, it vill be correct. I dontt 7 want to submit an es timate for you.
, 8 JUDGZ MATIAS : Before we leave today, 9 I will give you a card with my name and address 10 on it so that you can ge t s ome thing of f to =e .
11 MR. BRADSHAW: Okay.
12 JUDGE MATIAS : Very quickly. b 13 Mr. Bradshau, have you talked ec the 14 pe ople from the Town of Neu Haven?
15 MR. BRADSHAW: No, sir.
16 JUDGE MATIAS : Le t me te ll you the 17 c ontex t. They were here before you arrived this Q
18 morning and as a matter of fact, they talked with 19 consultants and they have an estimate from 20 consultants and a proposal of what the c ons ultan ts 21
, can do and I gather from uhat I have heard from 22 their presentation and from yours , that you have M a similar inte res t, that is the economic impact PanscNT REPc4 TING Stevict. INc.
l '
59
~
/
i of the application under considera sow, 2 again, I will say what I hava said a: t some -
o 3
of counsel have said, this is a very limited 4
fund, $25,000, that is all there is and when I 5
have a number of demands on that fund, obviously 6 it will not go far. If I can bring any of you ,,
together and have you make a unified , j oint 7
a
( approach, pool your rec ources , it wil;-be cuch .,
s \ '
mor2 e ffe c tive fror. your s tandpoint ar;!( cuch mora 10 helpful _com ours. Is it possible to talk to the 11 Town of New Haven?
12 MR. BRADSHAW: Yes. -
13 JUDGE MATIAS: And make a j oint eff art 14 in this area, 15 MR. S ALOGA : Right. I feel that as t is long as the obj e c tive we are trying to achieve 17 is incorporated - - .
18 MR. BRADSHAW: If their objectives are -
is the same as ours, we would be glad to corroborate a) with them.
21 JUDGE MATIAS : I understand that.
22 I understand that you could be going in dif ferent directions but if that is so, so be it, but if 23 you could als o le t ce know in a day or tw o PAnsoNT REPom7INo Stavect, INC.
2138 016
60 T
3 1 whe ther you think there is any possibility a t all
- o 2 of you ge tting toge ther, that woulc i be helpful -
3 information.
4 MR. SALOGA: Could we have the names 5 of those who are responsible for that?
6 JUDGE MATIAS: Yes. We had Mr.
7 Schipper, the Town Supe rvis or and Mr. Anderson 8
who is the consultant and they are sitting in the 9 back of the room. Gentle =en, raise your hands 10 and maybe you could talk to them. I don't know 11 whe ther you can ge e toge ther or not but I would .
12 like to explore that possibility.
13 MR, S ALCG A : Yes, sir.
14 DR. SCHWARTZ: I j us t wan te d to c on=ent ,
I am surprfsed, Mr. 3radshau, that in cuency 15 16 minutes you were able to ge t cuite a dis tinguished 17 list, 18 MR. BRADSHAW: Don't be sur prise d 19 because ve have been working on it for years, 20 sir.
21 DR. SCHUARTZ: Okay.
22 MR, 3RADSHAU: And we have these 23 gentle =en at our beck and call but not tha t ue e PrasoNT REPCRTING SERvlCE. INC.
2138 017
51 A 1 could bring them here today but ue can have the m
. 2 in a matter of a week.
~
,. 3 DR. . SCHUARTZ: So, you have been giving 4 this serious thought be f ore .
5 MR. BRADSHAU: Yes, sir, certainly, yes ,
s DR. SCHUARTZ: And ue caught you 7 unprepared.
8 MR. BRADSHAW: Yes.
s MR . S AL OG A : I think it is germane to 10 offer this too and that is that a lot of the 11 groundwork prior to our knowing the specific ,
12 dates of the hearings, on a longrun basis has 13 been conducted through an organization called 14 Jobs for Energy Inde pende nce . That is our base 15 of operation.
16 MR. BRADSHAW: So, you wouldn't be too 17 surprised. All of these gentlemen are in the 18 area. They are over in Auburn now.
19 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Does that 20 counsel have any questions?
21 MR. GREY : "o, your Honor. He don't
. 22 have any plans to comme nt on dis tribution of the 23 fund at all. '
l .... _ . .. _ ... ..... . , -
2138 018
c2 1 JUDGE EATIAS : I just - - as you
. 2 lis te n , if you have anything tha t would be help-3 ful to myself or Dr. Schwarts, I would be happy 4 to hear.
5 MR. G REY : We have no comment.
6 JUDGE MATIAS: Thank you, Mr. Bradshaw 7 and Mr. Saloga, a All right. Now, I have heard from the 9 City of Os'wego, the Toun of New Ha/en and the la Village o f Me::ic o . Are there any other municipal 11 applicants for funding?
12 (No response) 13 JUDGE MATIAS: No others. We already 14 have a claim for about $100,000 I guess.
15 Yes, sir.
16 MR. MCWRY : Could I jus t be heard 17 again? I understand that in the case of the 18 Jamesport hearings, that there uas precedent 19 that the Siting Board did rule that health 20 e ffects and e ffects of low level radioactive
". 21 wa.e '.e we re an issue in the siting hearing and 22 s'nce that is the primary concern for the Village l
23 of Me::ico , I uould j us t like to emphasize that ,
point.
m .. ~, e . _ ., ~ . e . ,, , c .. , ~ c.
2138 019
63 I
. I would also note that the village did address e o in its application, the ques tion of need and-3 '
, well known witnesse s we re specifically lis ted 4
dealing with the issue of need in the village's 5
application and I would like the same pe rmis s ion 6
which has been given to the City of Oswego to 7
come up with a lis t of additional witnesses that
' 8 might tas tify in tha t regard.
9 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, thank you.
10 MR. MGJRY : May we have two days for P
11 that?
12 JUDGE MATIAS : All right, fine. Can 13 you apprise ne of your progress?
14 MR. MGfRY : At this time, as I say, ue 15 have no names but it is an issue which we would -
16 like to address and subordinate to the issue of 17 safe ty but if the other witnesses are going to IS be called, we would like to be a ble to call 19 witne s se s in that regard as we ll.
20 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. When would
- 91
~
you be able to le t =e know a bit more about it?
22 MR. MOURY: You indicated Thursday or Friday and I' w3uld s tipulate that it would 'ce ,
...o~,e.~..,~.....m.'~c 2138 020
54
. I by the 23rd of March.
l 2 JUDGE MATIAS : All right.
~
3 MR. MOWRY: ny le t te r . '
4 JUDGE MATIAS : 2e fore you le ave , vould 5 y u ge t my name and addre ss?
6 MR. MCWRY : Yes.
7 JUDGE MATIAS : And write =e and give me a as much information as you can.
3 MR. MOWRY : Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE MATIAS: Anything else on 11 municipal funding?
12 (No response) 13 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. I gather 14 not. Be f ore the recess I had indicated that I 15 wanted to discuss the possibility of j oining -
16 into one unified e f fort, if possible , several of 17 the citizen groups that are re pre sented here 18 today. I don't have a list of everybody who 19 made an appearance but I believe the Ecology a Ac tion is he re and Conce rned Citizens for Safe 21 Energy and we have a Town Planning Board here n and ue have the Farn 3ureau here. Is there any m possibility that you could all come together and f
.....~,e.~..,~......c..,~c.
2138 021
a:
-J
/
, do some thing on a j oint basis? .
. 2 HRS. DALY: Speaking for Zeology Action ,
3 of Oswego, ue did discuss uith the other group 4
during the recess uhat you recues ted that ue do 5
but we respectfully submit that we think .t is 6
premature right now to discuss consolidation 7
because the issues thecselves have not been 8
identified yet for the hearing but that ue vould 9
agree that as the issues get ide n tifie d , that 10 we vould discuss with the other groups on what 11 issues we could consolidate, on which ones -
12 perhaps we could not c ons olida te but at this 13 point us can't make a fira commitment.
14 JUDGZ MATIAS: All right. I undarstand 15 and I don't want to push you in a direction you la do not want to go but I do suggest that if you 17 can combine your e fforts , it vill be auch nora e f fe c tive . Is it possible, Mrs. Daly and tha 19 others that are he re , that you will be presenting 10
, uitnesses in this case? I guess I assume th:t 21 you are but I don't know that that is the ccce.
. 22 MRS . D ALY : There is a possibility.
23 JUDGZ MATIAS : The re is that p os s ib ili ty..
..,_,._,,~.-,c..,~c.
2138 022
/- /. .
, 1 MRS . D ALY : Yes.
. 2 JUDGE MATIAS: Is this true for the 3
other groups that are here today? '
4 MR. MAC NEILL: Spe aking for Ecolog';
5 Action, yes.
6 JUDGE MATIAS: Your name, sir?
7 MR. MAC NEILL: Allen Mac Neill, ye s ,
8
, we will be both cross e:cacining and presenting 8
tes timony in this proceeding.
10 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, yes, Maian.
11 MRS. UEBER: Speaking for the Osuego 12 County Fara Bureau, ue hope to be able to present 13 testimony and also cross e::anine. We also feel 14 that is a bit premature for us to be asked to 15 align forces . Our issues are dis tinc tly in the ~
16 agricultural line and the re are ce rtain areas 17 that ue uill be able to participate with other 18 groups but there are other araas at which ue 19 hope we will ;e able to sa tis fac torily re present 20 the agricultural interes ts of the c oun ty .
. 21 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. It cay be a 22 bit auch for you to make de tailed plans . I 23 unde rs tand tha t but it is not too early to begin ,
PansoNT REPomisNo Stavict. INc.
2138 023
67
- 1 planning at le as t on a broad basis of what direction you might take. and uha t you may be 2
3 able to do and again I urge you for the e f fe c tive 4 ness of your oun presentation, if you can j oin 5 t oge the r , that is the thing to do.
s Anything else on that?
7 (No response) 8 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. I have 9 received this morning a document entitled, 10 " Motion for Dismis sal. " I have not been able to 11 read it.
12 MRS. D ALY : We would like to make a 13 short presentation on the motion for dismissal.
14 Would this be an appropriate tine?
15 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. I see it is -
IS a four page docunent and I don't know what the 17 subs tance of it is. If you have anything non, 18 I will give the other parties an opportunity to 19 respond to this and I wouldn' t expect they uvuld 20 do it today even though you make an oral presente -
21 tion today because I am sure, like my s e lf , other:
22 have not even read it ye t so why don't you go 23 ahead.
t i
PAnsoNT RgronitNo Stavect. Inc.
l
60
. t MRS . D ALY : Yes. Ruth Kaplan will :e 2 2 making the su- ry.
3 MS. KAPLAN: Ruth Kaplan for Ecology 4 Action of Oswego. I would like to point out 5 that the firs t page is really a summary i the 6
, substance of the motion which is then de taile d -
7 in the later pages. I would like to begin by a saying that we unde rs tand that our motion to e deny docke ting was passed on to you for your con-10 sideration and that we continue to be committad 11 to the concerns raised in that motion. However, .
12 today the motion that we pre se n t is based on 13 significant neu information uhich has cone forward 14 since the docke ting of this application and 15 which ue think really strikes at the very heart 16 of this application.
17 It has become clear that LILCO is no 18 longer a committed co-applicant for this New 13 Haven applica tion. This fact is contained in 20 direct testimony which was pre pared f or the 21 Jamesport proceeding. It seems to us that uhen 22 50% of the foundation crumbles, a house cannot u s tand. There is no basis for continuing to *
,....o~,_..,~.......,~c. I 2138 025
69 s
I
, consider this application at this point. .
. 2 For this reas on, ne move that the ,
- 8 application be denied and submit to you this 4
motion in writing with the supporting evidence.
5 JUDGE MATIAS: Okay. Does that c omple t a 6
your s tatecent?
7 MS. KAPLAN: Yes.
8 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you.
9 Mr. Schutt, S taff Counsel Mr. G re y, 10 how long will it take counsel to respond to this?
II '
We have a prehearing conference this week that -
12 will have you busy. Would possibly ten days be 13 sufficient?
14 DR. SCHWARTZ: Have you seen this? ,
15 MR. GREY : We haven't re ad it ye t.
16 DR. SCHWARTZ: Y ou haven' t read it.
17 MR.SCHUTT: For the mocent I am defer-18 ring to the Public Service Commission.
19 JUEGE MATIAS : All right.
20 DR. SCHWARTZ: Have you re ad this, 21
. counsel?
n MR. SCHUTT: I have only glanced at it.
23 t JUDGE MATIAS: If you want to discuss l ...._.._.,_,e.....,-
2138 026
70 I
it today or would you pre fer not to? '
2 MR. SCHUTT: No. I think it would ba '
- 3 more appropriate to reply in uriting and 4
certainly since the alle g a tions of the motion 5
go primarily to the material or matters attri-8 buted to LILCO, I would be more appropriate for 7
them to respond.
8 JUDGE MATIAS : I would want to hear 8
from LILCO on this and it will probably be brough t 10 to their attention on Thursday. Probably that II will be the earlies t they would hear about it.
~
12 MR. SCHUTT: Yes. I uould trus t that 13 Ecology Action has served LILCO.
14 JUDGE MATIAS: Mr. Schutt reminds me, -
18 I should see to it that LILCO has a copy and IS they can take a quick look at it at the end of 17 it and know how much time it will take them to 18 respond.
19 Mrs. Daly.
- 0
~
. MRS. DALY: The service list, that uas 21 the first time I heard of it this morning and ue
, have served it on everybody in the room who is
't 23 an active party, this motion but if there are
,..._,e...,~......c..,~c. 2138 02/
71 l 1
additional parties, ue would appreciate having a ,
2 uritten service lis t for us to serve everybody 3
else.
4 JUDGE MATIAS : Ue have a very, very 5
lengthy service list and I don' t e::pec t parties 6
to serve doc ume nts on all of the people lis te d 7
in the service lis t. What you do is this, as 8
this case progresses, kee p your own se rvice list 9
and make a service lis t from those who are ac tive 10 in the proceeding and you do that by taking the 11 transcript, the first page, two pages 'r three .
12 pages which will contain all of the appearances 13 and make your own service list from those pages 14 and then as you serve documents , serve them on 13 the people who are active.
- 18 All right. Nou, has LILCO been served 17 with a copy of this?
18 MRS. D ALY : I served the lawyer for 18 the Applicant which I assu=e re pre se n ts - -
20 JUDGE MATIAS : Mr. Schutt, no, he 21 re presents New York S tate Elec tric and Gas. I n
Mrs. Daly.
MRS. DALY: The re is no lawyer here f or ' '
m . ..~ , _ . , ~ . e m m. : ~ '
2138 028
72 I LILCO? ~
2 JUDGE MATIAS : I unders tand there vill -
t 3 be on Thursday at the Albany hearing. We are 4
just going to, in e ffect , ue are going to do this 5 again. He are going to do this tuice.
8 MRS. DALY: Could I give you another 7 copy to give to his on Thursday?
8 JUDGE MATIAS : Do you have another copy?
9 MRS. DALY: Yes.
10 JUDGE MATIAS: Secause - -
11 MRS. D ALY : I am sure he vould ge t it -
12 faster than the mail would.
13 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you.
14 MR. SPINDEL: Your Honor, e:<cuse ce, ,
15 I think if ue could have that copy, ue could ge t 16 it to LILCO comorrou.
17 JUDGE MATIAS : Ve ry g ood . All right 18 then, we vill discuss on Thursday the time for 19 responding to this motion.
20
, Anything further on the motion?
21
_ (No response)
- 22 JUDGE MATIAS
- All right. I gather not.
23 MRS. DALY: We vill not be at the
...,_ ..,c ,_ e.... ., .
2135029 l
73
- I hearing on Thursday. Is there any information 2 or input that we should have in terms of your 3 decision on that?
4 JUDGE MATIAS: No. Actually you need 5 not concern yourself with anything at this point a because I will simply give the other parties a 7 date in uhich to respond to your motion and so a you will jus t be waiting. They will be ins truc te d ,
s of course, to se rve copies on you, Mrs. Daly to and the other active parties. So, you will be 11 hearing from then but the date will be a p pr o::i- .
12 ma te ly tan d ay s or two wee ks , I would gather in 13 that neighborhood for them to re spond .
14 MRS. DALY: Thank y,ou.
10 MR. G REY : Your Honor, without respond-16 ing particularly to the date ve would reply to 17 the action, because from the impression that ue 18 have, from what Ecology Action has j us t told us, 19 I don't be lie ve that ue could really respond to "A the substance of this within ten days. I thinh
- 21 that frankly this will take a little bit longer 22 than that. They raise some c omple:: substantive 23 questions that have already been brie fed .
....c~,...,~...m..'~c 2138 030
74 1
indirectly or partially in the NYSEG rate case, -
2 the Jamesport rate case and have been considarad
, 3 in the Ja=esport re opening proceeding and that 4 doesn't =can that we canrt have 3oce kind of a 5 response nichin the ne::t tuo or three ueeks but 6 it is going to take longer than ten days .
7 JUDGE MATIAS : Mor ally on a motion, 4
a ten days or two weeks is norna117 regarded as 9 sufficient. I as not second guessing you on 10 uhat you might need. Would two veeks be suffi-11 cient eine? ,-
12 MR . G REY : Tuo veeks would be helpful, 13 yes, 14 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Why don't 15 we think in those teras cut le t te talk to the is counsel for Long Island Lighting on that. I am 17 not making a decision today. We will think in la terms of two weeks and see what de ve lo p s 19 Thursday.
20 All righ t. On Page 4 of the Notice of 21 Prehearing Conference the re we re a list of itens
. 22 that we indicated would ;e taken up today and tha 23 first one is disc overy.
- Each of you who is a
..._...,~......,~c.
2138 031
75
- I s tatutory party and e ach of you, I think uith one
. 2
, exce ption, you filed a notice of intention and 3
.' received a le t te r from me da ted March 1s t 4
advising you to move as quickly as p os s ibic into 3
informal discovery. Now, I would like to knou 6
whe ther or not that has ;een done and how it has 7
been going, a
Mr. Schutt, ha'.a you been rece iving 9
any inquiries a t all?
10 MR. SCHUTT: No. The only party that 11 we have been in contact with for discovery has ,
12 been the S taff of the Public Service Commission 13 whe re ue have actually received an inquiry for 14 additional facts or analyses.
15 JUDGE MATIAS : Is the re any reason uhy 16 the re s t of you have not availed yourse lf or this 17 op por tunity ? We gave you a mailing address in la the le tter or March 1 and we also set forta the 18 te le pn one numecr in that le tter where you c ould "O
talk to NYSEG representatives aaout any informa-21 tion request you may have and I want to emphasize e,
at this time that we do not c onte mpla te any U
discovery af ter hearings begin and you should ce
....e._,,~....m.'~'
2138 032
IU well into the area of discovery now in de termining 1
2 for yourself uherein you re quire additional
, 3 inf orma tion, whe re in you want support for things 4 and Mr. Mowry.
5 MR. MOWRY : Well, as far as the Village 6 of Mexic o is conce rned , it has not gotten into 7 discovery by reason of the fact that it was hopin g 8
that the decision would be made wheteupon the 9 economic costs of such a proceeding could be 10 underwritten and that attorneys, as attorneys or 11 consultants, could be re taine d b', the village .
12 for such purpos .
13 JUDGE MATIAS: Well, I recognize that 14 is a p r oble m .
15 Mr . E nge l .
16 MR. SCHUTT: Your Honor, if I may 17 correct that s ta te me n t , we have also heard to 18 a limited extent from the DEC. S ome body called 19 that to my a tte ntion.
20 JUDGE MATIAS : Mr . Enge l.
21 FR. ENGEL: Mr. Schutt, I believe has 22 corrected the record with regard to that point.
M '
The Department or Environmental Conse rva tion has
..........,~-.i~e.
2138 033
77 1 be e n , of course, rev ie wing this application since .
. 2 its receipt and we expect to ee submitting ,
, 3 discovery que s tions to the Appitcant with respect 4 to the questions we submitted thus far or uere 5 intending to submit. We basically have not 6
really gotten into it because, simply because it 7 has been our feeling that we would try to consoli-7-
8 da te our discovery reques t s o tha t we we re n' t 9 barraging the Applicant on a day-in day-out basis .
10 We are trying to cons olida te a few matters so 11 tha t we can basically give the Applicant s ome thin.; .'
12 tha t is a little bit easier to handle.
13 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Well, all 14 righ t . I want to encourage you to move into this 15 area very quickly and to reques t of the Applicant N 16 material that you may want.
17 Now, I don' t know whe the r eve ryone has 18 imme dia te access to the application. The Notice 19 of Prehearing Conference told you whe re you could 20 find the application. Now, one of the areas on 21 file is with the Oswego Public Library at 120 22 East Second S tree t and for the S tuyve san t people --
23 '
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE : No it is not.
. . . o ~ , _ . , ~ . . . . . . i ~ c.
2138 034:
78
- 1 JUDGE MATIAS: It is not?
2 MR . DEYLE : Robe rt Deyle , the County 3 Planning Department. I dould like to correct ',
4 that. The Oswego County Public Library used to 5 be the public document room for both the Nuclear 6 Regula tory Commission documents and for the 7 Public Service Commission documents . That a location has been changed to the County Of fica s Building which wc are now in and all of these 10 documents are housed at the end of the hallway 11 and that includes one full copy of the NYSEG/LILC O 12 application in this proceeding.
13 JUDGE MATIAS: How come this informatior.
14 didn' t get to me? I am not blaming anyone but I
~
15 tried zo take a lot of care into ge tting this
' 16 information to the public and this is all se tup 17 in the newspaper notices and then it appears as is it is the wrong information. So, apparently 19 people have not been able to find it.
20 MR. FEIRSTEIN: Your Honor , during the al Nine Mile Two Transmission Line Case, that 22 decision was made in the c onte::: of that one case .
Z3 JUDGE MATIAS : But at any rate ic is ,
p...o~r a c,e ri~a s co,a. i~c 2138 035 I
79 1 not at the public library in Oswego.
2 XR. DEYLE: I cannot say de finitely it 3 is not there but it is de finite ly he re .
4 JUDGE MATIAS : All right.
5 M DEYLE: We have been given a book-G case by the Applicant to house the documents.
7 You can see them from where you are sitting uith
, - 8 both doors opene d.
9 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Tell, I 10 gather it is not at the public lib.rary because 11 when I said it was , there uns a chorus of "Nois". ,
12 MR. SCHUTT: I would just like to nota 13 that the Applicant did send the copy to the 14 library so it comes as a surprise to us too if 15 it is not the re .
13 JUDGE FMTIAS : Is the library in a 17 position to direct pe op le to the proper depository 18 for this material?
19 MR. S AL OG A : Maybe I can help you, sir.
20 Back about, a p pr oxima te ly 1976, I be lieve , the 21 NRC ma terial became so overuhelming at the 22
. f acilitie s of the public library, both as far as I_ 23 ke e p in g tabs of the documents and also as car as '
~.e.~..,~......~.
2138 036
00
- 1 space requirements we re concerned that they a 2
,, requested a new public location and at about that 3 time the particular filing she lve s that could be 4
locked were established here in the County 5
Building and the site for the public documentatien 6
was moved from the library over to this building.
7 Now, that pertains to the NRC and I assume that 8
at that time it also pertained to the pSC docu-9 mentation as well.
10 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. I hope that 11 is clear. Does everyone know that?
12 DR. SCHWARTZ: I would like to make a 13 c omme n t , if I may. Mr. Saloga, can you te ll me 14 when the records are available he re in this 15
~
ouilding, because I think the hours in the 16 library are much more favorable to pe ople who are 17 working during the day and want to s tudy those 18 in their own time , I feel this auilding probably 19 closes at 4:30 or 5 :00 o' clock while the library 20 probably has evening hours and I was wondering
- 21 if some arrangement couldn' t be made with the U library where they could re tain s ome of the U transcripts for several weeks or for several m ._ , e . _ ,, ~ c . -, c .. , ~ c.
2138 037
01 c.
. I months with eventual de posit here because I fee l
- 2
,, the~ the hours are severely limited in this 3
building as cenpared to the library.
4 MB S AL OG A : I don't think they would 5
oe against it.
6 MR, SCHUTT: E::cuse me . It is pro'; ably 7
premature but when we ge t into the question of 8
f- j oint hearings with the NRC, there will be no 8
question that the NRC documents will be file d 10 he re . This is the publi: document room as 11 established by the NRC and which was the subject ,-
12 of publication in the Federal Regis ter. So, 13 their docu=ents are going to be he re .
14 JUDGE MATIAS : Yes, Mr. Deyle .
15 MR. DEYLE : I would like to of fer to
18 check with the public library right at this 17 moment to de termine whe the r or not, in fact, 18 the re is a copy of the application on file there.
19 It may be that the copy that we have he re is a copy that was sent to the County Legisla ture 21 Chairman rather than the official public record 22 which may have been sent to the public library.
"3
~
JUDGE MATIAS : Could you check that ou t ? ~
- x PansoNT REPomTINa Stavict. INc.
. 2138 038
82
, 1 I would appreciate it.
2 Now, I have made or asked pe ople to '
f 3 make arrangements to use the library for this 4
case without regard to what happened in the past 5
and the information I re ceived was , ye s , the 6
public library in Oswego would be the depository 7
for the application and for transcripts and this (r' ,
8 address was given to me . Now, I don' t know wha t 9 has happen 2d but - -
10 MR. DEYLE: I would be glad to check
~
11 that out right now and report back.
12 JUDGE MATIAS : We will be here for 13 awhile, 14 MS. KAPLAN: I would jus t like to say -
15 that we have been involved in proceedings in this A
18 county in the past and it is our expe rience in 17 past proceedings that it taxes not only the la space of the public library but the S taff of the la Public Library to keep everythint up to date
. 20 once a great number of documents s tart coming in.
21 I think that the county has made a very good U
effort to kee p the documents in a state where 1
23 you can go in and really look at them and I
(' .
,. m o~,a.m.1,~a scavecc.i~c 2138 039
'3 I
re alize this isn't s ome thing that ycu knew in
. 2 advance but I would urge that if it is possible 3
that the official record be ke p t he re whe re our 4
experiance to date has been tha t they really have 5
been doing a -good j ob with the documents.
6 JUDGE MATIAS: Dr. Schwartz raised a 7
ques tion of hours , Mrs . Kaplan.
8 e- >ES. KAPLAN: Of what?
8 JUDGE MATIAS : Dr. Schuart had raised 10 s a question of hours, the hours that the records 11 would be av a ilable in this building. Is that ,
12 ade qua te ?
18 MS. KAPLAN: That can be a proble U
because it is not opened in the evening. If you I3 were comparing the city library with the county 18 building, the city library also has limited hours 17 and many mornings it is not opened. The public la facility in this area which has long hours and 18 also the capability of keeping the records in 20 proper form is the Penfie ld Library , the Stata
- 21 Unive rsity which, I mean, if ours is of suffi-22 cient conce rn, that library already does have
^ 23 official records for some of the proceedings in '
9 PARsoNT REPQRTING SERVICE. INC, 2138 040
G4 1
this area, particularly the Sterling case, I
- 2 just give that to you fcr your own information.
3 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, thank you.
4 Le t's move on. I think it is as clear as it can 5
be at the moment as to the availability of that 6 ma te rial .
7 The Rule s o f D is c ove ry , Mr. G re y .
8
(..
MR. GREY : Your Honor, we serve on all 9
parties in the case and all people on the service 10 list thau we could ge t ahold of yes terday , a c opy 11 of our proposed rules of discovery which we 12 submit at this time in possible contemplation of 13 a j oint proceeding with the NRC. We be lie ve that 14 the rules we have proposed would be applicable 15 for the most part in a j oint proceeding although ~
' 18 there may be sone slight ame ndme n ts through s ome 17 comments from the NRC on this. Ge ne ra lly la speaking, though, we think that they are a usefu'J 19 beginning point, something that can be a d op te d 20 at this point following comments and we wi)
- 21 start the discovery process in an informal way.
. 22 In general they provide for informal discovery,
~
%I encouraging informal discovery to the extent ,
,....~e._,,~.......'~'
2138 041
35 1
. I possible and following that or at the same time
- 2 as that, they called for su~cmission of written 3
interroga to rie s by partie s and re s ponse s within 4
specifie d time frames to those written interroga-5 tories. They also have one new addition that I 6
believe is novel in Article VIII proceedings and 7
that is the contemplation of oral discovery a
depositions on the record when called by parties 8
of other parties , we believe that oral discovery 10 depositions are an essential part of this process ,
11 the Article VIII process at this point because ,-
12 we have anticipated a j oint proceeding with the 13 NRC and should that j oint proceeding come about, 14 we would encourage and even request all tes timony 15 be pre filed by all parties prior to the commence-l- 16 ment of hearings. We feel tha t in order to 17 accomplish that obj e c tive , parties should have 18 the oppor tunity to cross examine other uitnesses, 19 other parties be forehand and clarify the points, 20 the anticipa te d points that they may be aftar I 21 so that when the pa r tie s tes tify in the case it 22
, will ce as comple te as possible and also that 23 the cross examina tion a t the actual hearings ~*
P ARsoNr REPCRTING S ERVICE, INC.
2.138 042 .
36 I would be as limited to the c:: tent pos s ible , in 2 other words, making the hearings, the formal 3
evidentiary hearings as concise and to the point -
.' 4 as necessary.
5 Now, we have submitted the proposed 6 discovery rules . We believe they will be accept-7 able in the NRC proceeding and we urge adoption 8 of them.
i 9 . JUDGE MATIAS : All right. I have 10 received this morning under a covering le tter 11 da ted March 19, 1979, a le tter addre ssed to 12 myself, S taff proposed Rules of Discovery. I
~
13 obviously have not had an opportunity to read 14 these and I know the re s t of you have not either.
15 Le t me first ask this question- D o any o f y ou , -
16 on the basis of having this inhand and being 17 able to give it a cursory review, do you feel 18 that comments would be necessary? Has this been 19 distributed to everyone?
23 MR. GREY: Your Honor, I have additionci 21
. copies which I haven' t dis tributed but I don't 22
. know who uould want it. Now I uould be happy
/
I 23 to pass them out.
N P ARSONT REPORTING $ERVICE. INC, 2138 043
87 1 MR.e, . DALY: That uas mailed ye s ta rday?
2
.. MR. GREY : Ye s te rday .
3 MRS . D ALY : I didn't get it.
4 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. D oe s e ve ry -
5 one have a copy now?
3 All right. I was about to say that I 7
was wondering even if on the basis of a cursory a examination, doyou feel a comment would ce 9 necessary on this?
10 Le t ce ask you this : As I think you 11 de tected from earlier comments , there is a need .
12 to proceed immediately into discovery. I would 13 like to get this discovery issue conside re d and 14 dealt with as quickly as possible. Would it be 15 re as ona ble to take a luncheon recess and charge 18
\-
you all with the responsibility of sitting down 17 and reading this over lunch and then coming back, 18 maybe in about an hour or an hour and fif teen 19 minutes and commenting on it and at le a s t giving 20 me your input s o tha t we can make a decision as 21
. to what changes we may want to make in the Staff 22
- proposed rules or whe ther ne have t o m a '.: e any U '
decisions, this type of thing.
.. . .c ~, e m .,, ~ c e _ m. , ~ c.
2138 044
30
,m s
i Mrs. Daly, you had your hand up.
l 2 MRS . D ALY : I uns j us t uonde ring uhat a the pressure is for this ucmost speed. Ara tha 4 hearings starting in a month? I mean, ve haven't 5 been given a time frame and we fully expe ct our 6
motion for dismissal to be approved and, the re f oqe ,
7 it would be a financial burden to the rate paye rs 8 if we all had hundreds of interrogatory ques tione s which then wouldn' t be needed because of the 10 motion for dismissal.
, 11 JUDGE MATIAS : I haven' t re ad your 12 motion, Mrs. Daly and I uouldn' t comment on the 13 merits of it if I had but the rule of thumb is 14 to always assume they are going to go forward ant 15 always plan for tomorrow and if s ome thing should ~
/
( 1s happen along the wayside, so 'ce it but I have to 17 plan as though there will :e hearings. Thera 18 will be a regular proceeding to consider the 19 application and the hurry on discovery is that 2 this process takes a great deal of time and ue
! 21 will be talking here in a tew minutes or mayce 22 this afternoon if we take a luncheon recess to 23 S tatf Counsel to develop some ideas on perhaps ,
Pa#$CNT RsponTING Scavicr. INC, 2138 045
u9 n
1 Proceeding to nearing and being able to expedire
. 2 this hearing. We are under a twenty-f our month :
3 mandate from the Le g is la ture and I do intend to
~
4 have these hearings comple ted and have a recom-5 mended decision by myself and Dr. Schuartz 6 written and to have it considered by the Siting 7 Board within the twenty-four month period unless the Siting Board itself chooses to extend the
(^ 8 g period. S o, we have to ; ear in mind that we are 10 geing to start moving and we are going to start 11 moving quickly and very frankly when we hold 12 hearings, they are not necessarily indicative of 13 the speed with which we hope this proceeding vill 14 move. We hope to, when we begin hearings, to 15 be able to comple te them in a fairly short span -
Is of time.
17 What we want to emphasize and where we la want to put our time and e ffort is in the prepara-19 tion. We feel that there can be total and com-20 ple te preparation by all parties so that when
. 21 hearings begin, if we can start moving, we can
. 22 c omp le te them and mee t the twenty-four month
. 23 mandate so that is why I an urging you now to t
s e
. _ , ~ , , _ u , . . .. s c. I 2138 046
90 i
I consider discovery and s tart thinking in terns
. 2 of what it is you need from the Applicant and 3 go to them and ge t the ma terial and have it in '
~
4 your possession and be ready to cross examine 5 or to develop your own cases and we a re not going s to go into discovery af ter hearings begin.
7 We are going to comple te that process before 7
8 hearings so that when a uitness is on the s tand ,
e there will be no ques tions like "Can you provide to me with this" and "Can you provide me with that."
11 That will all be provided so that is what I have 12 got in mind.
13 Now, to go bach to my question, would 14 it be re as onable to take a short lunche on recess?
15 MR. SCHUTT: Your Honor, may I suggest -
'- 16 that at least as far as the Applicant is concernad, 17 I think we could be pre pared to answer tha t 18 question in detail en Thursday.
19 JUDGE MATIAS: Well, othe r pe ople uon' t 20 be with us on Thursday.
- 21 MR. SCHUTT
- I understand that but in
'. 22 e ffect we have he re wha tever those o the r pe o ple 23
, may have to say with respect to these rules
't PAmsoNT REPoertNo SEnvict. INC.
2138 047
91 I be f ore a ' ruling is made and it seems to me tha t y 2 the only appropriate - - I would say this, that 3
being the, Apolicant, New York S tate E le c tric and '
4 Gas, I gubsswwe are the primary applicant in 5
charge of the relevant material in this proceed-6 ing and ue went through the Cayuga proceeding 7
without formal rules and I certainly would s
8 encourage anyone who* ha s a ny dis c ove ry , not to
( , .
9 await the adoption of any formal rule s . We are 10 willing to respond informally or even more formal-11 ly to interrogatories without extant rule s .
/
12 One of the reasons for my hesitancy for scying 13 that I would pre fer not to comment on it now or 14 on these rules, is ,tha t there is a question in 15 my mind that to the extent that these rules -
! 18 differ from ,those currently enforce be f ore the 17 NRC, if they are to be used in a j oint proceeding ,
18 I am not sure whe ther the NRC uould not pe rce ive 18 that they mus t go through a rule making procedure 20
- . in order to adopt the rules of procedure.
! 21 Sq, as we re ad them he re , I cannot call
. 22 whe ther there is any difference be tween the ra:
23
. rules and these proposed rules for discovery,
.f pansoNT REPQ4 TING SERVICE, lNC.
2138 048
92
,~.
1 nor can I connent on uhe ther they are significant -
2
.. without going through that and I jus t don't think
~
3 I could do that in an hour.
4 JUDGE MATIAS: Hell, again, I hace not 5
read the docunent but I would venture a guess 6
that the S taff intends that these rules uvuld be 7
applicable to 80003 only and the only j oindar a
that is possible be tween ourselves and NRC is 9
just proceeding on a j oint record. He vill 2ach 10 be conducting our se parata he arings.
11 MR. SCHUTT: Well, I unders tand that ,-
12 but as far as I an concerned, it is ce r tainly 13 going to be easier for an applicant to go foruarc 14 with discovery under one set of rules rather 15 than tuo that are slightly variant so again, I 18 can't tall uhe ther it is significant because I 17 have j us t not had eine to respond co then.
18 I don' t nean to be difficult but - -
19 JUDGE :!ATIAS : I didn't nean to raisa this point but I think I uill do it cecause
=
og naybe it is a good tiuc. Ua have been talking 22
- with the NRC about the possibility of j oint 23
- hearings and there is an anticipation on both
. . .c ~ , m _ , , ~ . . . m . . , ~ c. 2138 049
f3
/
i 1
sides that we will be holding joint hearings.
.. 2 However, ue have not yet signed the agreement ,
. 3 and again as I said to Mrs. D a ly a few moments 4 ago, we are under a twenty-four month mandata 5
and I have to proceed without anticipating so:2-6 thing in the future. I an going to cove forvard 7
with 30000 and to the e:: tent that the URO cocas 8
7 in and j oins us , fine, ne can proceed from that 8
point but I want to start right now moving this 10 case forward.
11 MR. SCHUTT: Ye s and I concur with -
12 that and as I s aid , ue we re prepared to respond 13 today to discovery informally or formally.
14 JUDGE MATIAS : Wall, I ao urging 15 everyone to go to you on c.r informal basis.
( 16 I think that is the be s t fo: all concerned.
17 Does the S taf f, Mr. Flynn, do you have 18 s ome thing ?
18 MR. FLYNN : Perhaps for the benefit of 20
, the parties, I can say what is the : asis for 21 these rulas. Ua generally look firs t at the other rules of discovery adopted in othe r 23
Article VIII proceedings. That was the primar; e a
94
, i basis for this docutant. Also since we vera l 2 considering and still are considering a j oint 3 hearing with the NRC, we looked at the NRC rules 4 of practice and these rules are written with an 5 intention of not being inconsis tent with the N2C e rules of discovery.
7 As ?Ir. Grey said, we realize that if A
g there is a j oint proceeding, there will need to 9 be some ame nd=e n ts to the rules to bring in the 10 concept of an Atomic Safe ty and Licensing 2 card 11 and some other minor details but we think that 12 using a basis of other Article VIII rules and 13 with the thought of them not being inconsis tent 14 with the NRC rules of practice, that theseshould 13 form a basis for our going ahead now. -
16 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. The collocuy, 17 Mr. Flynn, has j us t served to support the fact 18 that oerhaps I could not e::pect the p ar tie s to 19 respond to this af ter the lunche on re ce s s .
m ' 4Why don ' t y ou - -
I thought it might be e asier l 21 for many of you to be able to respond orally to 22 this rather than submitting some thing in writing
. 23 but why don' t we j us t setup a time for responsa.
P4 RSCNT R EPC RTINQ S ERVf CE, lNC, 2138 051
55 1
1 Today is the 20th of March. If you were to i
2 respond uithin tuo weeks and nobody has to .
3 respond, you unders tand but take this back vith ,
,- 4 you to your offices and look it over and if thera 5
is something you want to cay about the proposed 6
discovery ruleG , put it doun in writing and 7 submit it to me and if you can have it mailed on 8 or be f ore April 10 th , is that 2 ility ?
p os s i' 9 All right, that is understood.
10 FE . F LYNN : Your Honor, ue aren't 11 submitting that d ocume nt as a go or no go decisien.
12 We are, as in all other aspects or phases of this -
13 proceeding, willing to talk uith the Applicant 14 and the othe r partie s . So, if anyane has a 15 sugges tion of how these things could change, ue ,
16 would like to hear them and perhaps be fora it is 17 necessary for the pe ople to for= ally com=e nt ,
18 we can agree that certain changes ought to be 19 made.
20 JUDGE MATIAS : He ll, Mr. Flynn, vould 21 you and Mr. Grey be available for a period after 22 today's prehearing conferance to discuss this?
- 23 MR. FLYNN: Yes. I uas going to say 1
PansoNT REPORTING SEMylCE. INC, 2138 052
a
?5 s 1 to the parties that will attend the Thursday 2
,, prehearing, ue would perhaps dc it then. That ,
3 would give those par tie s ' chcnce to look at this 4
document and react intelligently but the other 5
persons who are not going to be attending the 8
hearing in Albany, we would be available at the 7
end of today and, of course , you could all phone a
us up and tell us wha t your reaction is.
8 JUDGE MATIAS: And then I can hear fro:
10 you, Mr. Flynn and Mr. Grey as to any changes 11 or modifications you may wish to make as a result -
12 of these contacts.
13 MR. FLYNN: Yes, sir.
14 DR. SCHWARTZ: This is quite fle::ib le 18 you are calling us.
18 MR. FLYNN: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. So, af te r we 18 break today, if you want to take a fe w .noce nt s ,
19 Dr. Schwartz and I will be here for a little 20 while and the S taff Counsel and you can discuss 21 these procedural matters uith us but if you want 2,'
to spend some time with it yourself, by yourself 23 and submit written comments , mail then to =2 by
.. . .c ~ , o .a., ~ . .. , m. '~'
2138 053
97 1 April 10th and again I urge you, do not wait
.. 2 on this d.ccunant or the adoption of these -
. 3 disco,e ry rule s . Proceed nou uith informal 4 discovery. Have that in mind and ge t uha t 3 information you can, 6 Another iten that ue uanted to discuss 7 uas Pk e anticipa ted acconnoda tion and loca tions a of public statement hearings. All hearings, of 9 course, are public hearings, that is, they ara 10 open to the public and the press may come in and 11 listen. We break the hearings in to two phase s . .
12 We have uhat ue call a Public S ta tement Hearing 13 and then af ter that ue have what ue call the 14 Evidentiary Hearings. The public s ta te nc n t 15 hearing will be a hearing that is se t aside for k is the taking of lay tes timony or opinions or stata-17 cents fros cembers of the public uho wish to be 18 heard on the matters of the application. He vill 19 be holding two of those. He util hold one in 20 your area and ue will hold one doun in the 21 S tuyvesant area.
~.
22 Under the statute, Article VIII, tha Z- 23 first hearings must be held, I believe it u cr'.:s '
9
,....c~,...,~o....,~c.
2138 054
?
1 1
to af ter May 21 and be fore June 20th. Dr.
2 Schwart and I have talked and we have talha d ,
3 t with the NRC Panel who uould be j oining us if 4
this is to be a j oint proceeding and ue hava 5
made a tentative conclusion. Nou, don't re ly .
6 upon this . Watch for your notices. The notices 7
WF will be the last word but tentatively we are 8
( thinking in terms of being in the City of Csuego 8
during the week of May 21 Nou, that is, again, la I will say it is tentative. That could change 11 but that has been the period in uhich we have -
12 talked. Then some time in early or mid-June and 13 I am not sure when tha t uould be , it could ;e 14 the week of the 4th or it could be the ucek of .
15 the lith, we will go doun to the Stuyvesant 18 area soceuhe re in Columbia County and we vill 17 have a public s ta tement hearing down there.
la I dontt know the location of that hearing bu:
19 I expect the one here will :e in the City of
- 0 Oswego and very possibly in this room.
21
, Anything on that? Yes.
- "2
- 12. DEYLE: Robert Deyle . Does the discovery process have to be comple ted be fora the
,....~e,....,~.......,~c.
2138 055
99 I
. commencement of the public s tatement hearin3 ?
.. 2 JUDGE MATIAS : No, it does not, no, ,
g 3 indeed, it c.oes not. The tuo are inde pe nden t .
4 With respect to hearings, ue don't think that 3
the hearings vill be ge tting unde ruay for so=c 6
time ye t and I can' t give you even an appro::iaatc 7
date for that, a
MR. DEYLE : For the evidentiary 8
haarings?
10 JUDGE MATIAS : For the evidentiary 11 hearings, yes. -
12 MR . DEYLE : That is the deadline for 13 the end of the disc ove ry process .
I4 JUDGE MATIAS : The beginning of the 15 evidentiary hearings, right.
16 MR. DEYLE: We dontt have an estimate 17 of when that would be?
18 JUDGE MATIAS : 1iot necessarily. If 19 the S taff has any thought that they uant to give a0
, us, I mean, our S taf f of the De partment of 21 Public Se rvice , they have been =eeting with the
. 22 NRC S taff and they have been talking in some 23 '
de tail as to the possible proce dures and I s
m .c ~ , m . , ~ . e . ,, , "' ' ~ '
2138 056
100 I
an ticipa te that if we are to undertake the joint 2
hearings, that both S taffs are going to file a ,
3 proposal with myself and Dr. Schuarts and uith 4
the Federal Panel and we vill put it be fore you 5
for comment as to the timing of witnesses and 8
the weight of the case will proceed in the 7
evidentiary phase .
't 8 Mr. Grey , do you bave any comments on 8
that?
10 MR. GREY : Just that I think it is 11 appropriata at this time to clear up the questior -
12 of when the j oint protocol or procedure vill 3e 13 decided, when the ques tion of whe ther there will 14
'c e one or not. We frankly anticipate a decision 15 within the ne::t week and a half one way or the 18 o the r . Frankly , mos t of the negotiations with 17 regard to the procedure have ;een comple ted cnd 18 there are some policy questions that have to ;e 19 resolved at the highest la ve ls of the agency "O
before we can decide whe the r the S taff can go
, on with the procedure or not. If the case goes
- 2 as you indicated, we would e::pect filing, pra-93 5
filing of the te s timony oy all Staffs, N2; Staff PAR $0NT REPORTING SERVICE. INO, 2138 057
101 1
and the PSC Staff as uell as othe r partie s in 2
this case prior to the con =encement of hearings.
3 Now, what would happen if there isn' t 4
a j oint proceeding is not clear, frankly. That 5
would alter the schedule tha t ue might propose 6
because we vould be able to operste uith the 7
flenibility of not having to have a draf ted
( 8 environmental s ta teme nt submitted by the NR:
S and forwarded to the Commission of its te s tincny 10 so there can be a dif ference in the scheduling 11 depending on uhe ther there is a j oint protocol 12 or isnt t a j oint protocol. We expect that vill 13 be resolved by the end of nent week.
14 JUDGE MATIAS : If there is not a j oint 15 protocol, do you anticipate making a procedural ~
16 proposal along the same lines that you would have 17 nad we pursued it j ointly?
18 MR. GREY: Yes, that is rignt. We 19 anticipate regardless of unetner or not there is 20 a joint protocol to submit to you at s ome time
- 21 within the nent two weeks, a schedule for the
- 22 way we think the case can be handled, carried out t
23 within the tuo year s ta tutory time frame and .,
PansoNT REPc47 No Semvict. INC.
2138 058
102 I
a way that would be the mos t e fficient uay to all 2
, par tie s .
~~ 8 JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Would you -
i 4 follow a format, Mr. Grey, similar to what you 5
did with respect to the discove ry rules , that is, 8
would you use a covering le tter, ad dre s s it to me ,
7 copies to all parties and in that covering le tter 8
advise as to the progress that was made in the 8
protocol whether there will be a j oint hearing 10 and so that all parties will be apprised as 11 quickly as possible as to whe ther or not ue will 12 have the NRC people with us during the portien of ~
13 the evidentiary proceeding, because I think they I4 will need to know that in their planning and then 15 I will, af ter I receive uhatever proposal it is _
16 your are making, whe ther it is by yourself alona 17 or whether it is j ointly uith the NRC, I will 18 send a le tter to all parties advising you as to 19 when you may comment on the proposals ceing made 20 by either our S taff alone or by the joint Staffs and so you will be kept apprised of what is
, happening procedurally in this case and what we
- 23 will be doing, because I vant you all on the m.. ~ e.~... ......m.'"-
2138 059
103
. 1 Board as quickly as p os s ible and we will ge t you 2 the notices jus t as quickly as ue can and if you '
T 1 say you haven' t heard , it is because we don't 4 know what to tell you ye t.
5 MR . GREY : Fine.
6 JUDGE MATIAS: All right.
7 MR. DEYLE : May I ask if it is reason-8 able to assure that the evidentiary hearings will 9 be af ter the public statenent hearing?
10 JUDGE MATIAS: Ch, yes, yes, indeed,
~
11 well after but I can't really - - I can't 12 quantify that, really. Ue are holding the pu::lic 13 statement hearings within the framework se t by 14 the s ta tu te . The statuta says you have to hold -
15 it not be fore so many days and not a f ter s o many is days and I think it is like 120 to 200 some thing.
17 So, we will 'ec holding tuo public s ta te men t is hearings but that will be independent of the 19 discovery and independent of the evidentiary
, 2 proceeding.
. 21 MR. 39.C NE ILL : Your Honor, Michael I 22 MacNeill f or Tompkins County Ecology Ac tion.
t 23 I would like to make three requests. It is a l ..._....._...._...........- '
2138 060
104
~
, hardship for most working people to come to
,= hearings during the day so I would like to ash that whatever public statement hearing you have ,
at le as t , schedule one for the evening.
5 JUDGE MATIAS: We will take care of that. I e::pec t there will probably be one starting at 1:00 and then s tarting again at
, 7:00, something like that, wh a te ve r .
g MR. MAC NEILL: I would like to also request that notice be placed of the hearing in the Ithaca Journal. The Pos t S tandard is not a widely read paper in the Ithaca area. The g Ithaca Journal is the pacer of record in the e
g Ithaca area and since the Ithaca area does 3 contain NYSEG's corporate headquarters at a ~
g fairly subs tantial proportion of their service 17 ea, I would like to reques t tha t.
3g Also in line with that, if pos s i':le ,
39 I would like to request at least one public 20 s ta te ment hearing in the Ithaca/Binghamton area.
21 NYSEG's headquarters is in Ithaca. Their 22 Engineering and Research Departments are in 23 Binghamton. In the Jccesport proceeding we had ,
l ..__....____..._-......... '
2138 061
105
, 1 a public hearing in the Legislative Chambers in 2
Ithaca and it was uell attended. I would li.':a 3
to reques t that there be a t . le as t one hearing 4
in the Ithaca area since it does sit qui te 5 squarely in the center of NYSEG 's Southern 6
Service area and NYSEG being the principal 7 applicant.
- 8 JUDGE MATIAS : 'de ll , there would only 9 be a limited ques tion for the ra sidents of Ithaca 10 and that would be the econonic impact on N'ISEG .
11 The public s tatement hearings are going to go .
12 into a number of things and I want to hold the 13 public s tatement hearing in the areas that ara 14 primarily affected and nanely, lieu Haven and 15 Stuyvesant and we normally hold j us t one pu.li:
18 state =ent hearing and I aa holding tuo in this 17 case to acc onmoda te those people and I re ally 18 don' t see any need to go beyond that public 19 s ta te me nt hearing.
20 Nou, as far as publication is concerned, 21 Mr. Schutt, did you have any response to that?
MR. SCHUTT: I have tuo re s pons e s .
. 23 I intended to bring this up later but as to those :
I "'-'"'~~""'"~~'
2138 062
105
, 1 partie s uho are not residents in the area of the 2 primary site and the alte rna te site , the current ,
T 3 rules of the Public Service Concission requira 4 the subaission of a pe tition to intervene in which 5 certain allegations as to the nature of their 6 Participation, why it is in the public intarast 7 that they participate. I think that the appli-a cants in this proceeding, at le as t are entitled s to receive a copy of that and concent on it :afore 10 these people a re admitted as p ar tie s . I really 11 have no basis at this co=ent to de termine the -
12 intere s ts of those parties so it is hard put for 13 ce to comment at all as to whe ther or not they 14 should participate ,
15 The other aspect of it, until they are s
is formally admitted party s tatus , it seems to =e 17 to be premature to decida the question of whathet 18 it should be published in Ithaca and than I 19 would similarly note that if they ara ad=itted
, 20 party s ta tus , they are on the service list.
21 That would seem to =e that they are assured of I 22 notice o f anything tha t goe s on and we are into I
M this basic problem, uhile the gentleman 2139 n42
107 3 re pre se n ts that the Ithaca Journal is widely 2 dis tributed in the maj or se rvice area of the 3 company, I suspect that is not true, that the re '
4 are several papers and in notifying the-MYSZG 5 ratepayers, ne vould be publishing in a multi-6 plicity of papers for very little purpose, 7 where being on the se rvice list chould adequately
_ g give notice to the active p ar tie s , i 3 JUDGE MATIAS : Well, NYSZG t s he ad-10 quar te rs are in Binghanton, are they not?
11 MR. SCHUTT: NYSZG actually has tuo 12 offices. The maj or portion of its officers and
~
13 e:<e cu tive personnel are loca ted in 3inghamton 14 but its principal offices under its corporate 15 charter are located in Ithaca uhere the Rate -
16 Department and the accounting services ara 17 located.
18 JUDGE MATIAS: Well, le t me say this, 19 Mr. Schutt, that in the Jame sport proceeding, a
4 00003, the Siting Board permitted pa r tie s in the
. 21 Ithaca area to be c ome or I uill say in te re s ts in 22 the Ithaca area , to becoce pa r tie s to that I
23 proceeding. I don't recall, I don't know if I t
~..~,~.,_...,m.,~c.
2138 064
100
, i ever knew, though, uhat else accompanied that
. 2 in the are a of publica tivn. I don' t know 3 whe ther there was publication in the Ithaca C
4 papers or not.
5 MR. MAC NEILL: There was publication 6 in the Ithaca paper.
7 MR. SCHUTT: I suspect there was ,
a related only to the stacament hearing.
9 JUDGE MATIAS : That is what I was going 10 to say. I don't know that the Ithaca papers 11 became one of the vehicles for publication 12 throughout the proceeding. That is s ome thing 13 I will look into when I get to Albany on the 14 publication.
15 Another thing that I want to talk a::out ,~
is now, under Section 70.20 of the Cocaission Rules ,
17 some thing that was noted also in the Notica of 18 Prehearing Conference , ue have to se t d a te s for 19 the filing of notices of intention to offer 20 te s timony on alte rnate s ite s .
I 21 Does Staff have any thoughts on that?
22 Jus t to apprise the par tie s , that it Il s ta tes in part, the Presiding Examiner shall se t ,
.. _ ,m.m.1,_ ....,m.,<. I 2138 065
109 1 a date not le s s than thirty days nor more than .
.. 2 sixty days af ter the commencament of public ,
3 hearings by which any party shall notify the 4 Presiding Examiner that that party it tends to 5 offer testimony with respect to a site not 6
primarily proposed or alternatively listed by 7 the Applicant and then it goes on.
- 8 Do any of you other than the Applicants 9
now, do any of you intend to propose alternate 10 site s ? In other words is this going to be any-11 thing but academic interest in the case? '
12 MR. FLYNN : If other cases are any 13 precedent, there will be some interest in other 14 s ite s . Perhaps the only thing we can do today .
15 is to assume that the first public hearing vill is be the one you have set f or Oswe g o , the week of 17 May 21 - -
19 JUDGE MATIAS : tie have tenta tive ly se t 18 that data.
20 MR. FLYNN: Tentatively se t and if 21 there is an in te re s t to sa t that day for notices 22 under 70.20, perhaps the bes t ue could do today U
- is to set a da te .
.. . ~ m-~ ..m o c.
2138 066
110 i 1
, JUDGE MATIAS : Well, that d a te then
- 2 could be, if we had the public s ta tement hearing
3 the week of the 21st, that date would be no i
4 sooner than late June and into July , I gather of 5
this year. Does anyone have any questions nou?
6 MS, KAPLAN: I have a question. It 7
wasn' t clear to =e whe ther this time period is
. 8 in relation to the public comment hearing or the 8
beginning of the adj udica tory he arings .
10 JUDGE MATIAS: It says, after the first II hearing and the public s tatement hearing, it .
12 will be our firs t hearing for this purpose.
13 Now, this is just the notice of intention nou 14 and you should be coming to grips with these 15 things very, very quickly so this would not he ~
16 any kind of a hardship. Le t me ce se t also a 17 ten ta tive da te for that. If we made that around 18 July 10th, would that be adequa te , Mr. Flynn?
19 MR. FLYNN: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE MATIAS: All right. This vill I also be tentative. You vill be apprised further 2
as to whe ther this is a fira date. That is 23 your targe t date now if you are thinking of '
PAmsoNT REPORTING SERVICE. l A .
111 1
alternate site s , think of July 10th today as ne 2
, date when you will have to apprise myself and 3 -
Dr. Schwarts of your notice to present te s timony
- 4 in that are a . Tha t da te could be altered slight-
~
5 ly but it vould only be very slight, maybe by a i
week or two but kind of think in those te rms 7
right nott.
a
}< One o the r thing that I wante d to ta'. e 8
up and then I will leave it to you - yes, 10 Matam.
11 MRS. WEBER: Susan Weber for Ecology 12 Action. To da te we don' t 'q. ave a copy of the 13 Memorandum of Unders tanding which se ts up the 14 partnership agreement be tween NYSEG and LILCO 13 with respect to the plant itself cnd as far as ~
18 I know, there has been no commitment by LILCO 17 to build the alte rna tive as set forth in the 18 application. Will we be ge tting this sort of 18 information 'ce fore the date that ue have to file 20 our alternative sites?
, 21 JUDGE MATIAS : I hadn't thought of thad, 22 That is in the application.
a3 MR. SCHUTT: No. The agreement is not. .,
PanscNT REPCRTING SEnvlCE. INC.
2138 068
112 I
, LILCO is a j oint applicant. They have c ocait te d
. 2 in a memorandum in the Jamesport proceeding to 3
participate in NYSEG's 1 and 2 4
MRS . D ALY : Is that February 2nd, 1975:
5 MR. SCHUTT: Apparently the lady is 8
be tter informed than I. I don't know the date.
7 I would question the relevance of that document
'r' 8 at this stage of the proceeding anyway and 9
certainly if they want to pursue discovery on 10 that subject matter, they are entitle d to pursue 11 discovery and I uould suggest that they do so.
12 I mean, again, we will respond if we deem it 13 re levant .
14 JUDGE MATIAS: All right but I gather that that will fit in also with what I am going
~
16 to be hearing on the motion to dismiss, will it 17 not?
18 MRS. DALY: Yes.
19 JUDGE MATIAS : We ll , all right. Le t a
me see what de ve lo ps in that are a and le t me see
. 21 what LILCO has to say on that and your needs 22 will all be taken care of.
23 MRS WEBER: I jus t vanted to be clear s PaascNT RepomTINo Stavict. IN ..
2138 069
113 1
on the hearing that Ecology Action is interested 2
in alternative sites of generation and that ue 3
are unclear as to the legal cocaitaent by both 4
companies to the alternatives and the s ite s that 5
are currently in the application. We need to 6
find out that sort of informa tion be fore we can 7
present our request for consideration of alter-
- 8 native sites .
9 JUDGE MATIAS : Le t's see wha t happens 10 but I would stay with the assumption that they 11 are firmly consitted to the partnership and to 12 the siting, the primary site be:.rg in the Neu 13 Haven area and the alte rna te in the Stuyvesant 14 area. I uould regard that at this point for all 15 purposes as a fira commitment until you are -
IS advised otherwise.
17 MR. FEIRSTEIN: Mr. Fe irs te in , I would 18 just like to make one c once n t c 'c ou t that se tting 19 a date for the a lte rna te sites. At this tire the 20 De par tme nt of Agriculture and Markets d oe s no t 21 intend to sponsor an alternate s ite on its cun.
22
, Houever, since ve don't hnou the date at which
- 23
, the evidentiary hearings are going to Sagin ; e t
_.% -- f PamscN r RepcRTiso Stavect. INC.
2138 070
114 1
and the Rule s of Discove ry tha t are proposed 2 permit discovery to continue until the e vide n t i- ~
arte s nearings be g in , I tnink it aight ce unwise 3 '
. 4 to se t a formal da te tha t might re q uire a c oenit-5 cent to sponsor an alternate site be f ore the 6 process for discovery is ove r wi th .
7 JUDGE MATIAS: No. It is not a commit-8 ment at all, That is a Notice of Inte ntion, tha t:
(
9 is all it is, kind of a - - it is al= cst a hcuse--
10 keeping item to kee p syself and Dr. Schwartz 11 apprised of what is going on and wha t we can 12 antic ipa te , reasonably anticipate in the conduct -
13 of the proceeding and it jus t simply le ts us '
14 know that you now have a present intention to 15 propose an alterna te site and I assume that you -
16 would be working on that but it is not firm at 17 all. If you change your mind la te r on , you 18 change your mind.
19 DR. SCHWARTZ: It is j us t a t your option M to present it.
21 JUDGE EATIAS: It le ts us know what thc 22
, party is thinking and wha t we can anticipa te in U
I the way of hearing needs, da te needs, place t
needs and the things that we have to do to plan P A R $CNT R EPC RTING S ERylCE. INC, 2138 071
115l' 1 the case, that is all.
2 Yes, sir. ~
3 MR. QUINN: Robert Quinn, the Tug Hill '
4 Commission. Ge tting back j us t for a moment to 5 the question of the public hearings. I would like s to make a request that notice of the public 7 hearings be given in at 1 east one paper in the 8 Utica area. The reason for that request, a numbe r 9 of times the towns that are going to be a f fe c te d 10 by the e le c tric transmis sion f acilities have baen 11 told that their be s t primary opportunity to re s pond to fundamental que s tions of siting the
~
12 13 transmission facilities is during Article VIII 14 proceedings be f ore details are hand le d in the 15 A rtic le VII proceedings and we have got a number -
r
'- 16 of towns in the One ida a re a that a re unaware of 17 today's mee ting and I am afraid will be unaware 18 of the public hearing in May unless there is socc 19 sort of a notice in the Utica papers and, of 2 course, this application does include prevision
- 21 for 765 kilovolt transmis sion facilities through M those areas.
I 23 JUDGE MATIAS : Well, those trans mis s ion I
- PansoNT REPont No Scavict, Inc 2138 072 -
116 1
lines would be the s ubj e c t of an Article VII 2
proceeding and I don't know who would be te lling 3
you that the place to raise Article VII issues a a 4
is in an Article VIII case.
5 MR. QUINN: I am not sugge s ting this is 8
the place to raise Article VII questions but once 7
we have got a c ommit=ent to a facility, once a 8
7 f acility has been certified under Article VIII, 8
there is a predisposition towards the Article 10 VII hearings going ahead. The f a c 111 tie s have 11 got to be provided to transport the energy from 12 one location to another and I think some of the 13 fun damental ques tions that have to do with energy 14 transmission can be addressed in the Article VIII
~
15 application and, in fact, I assume that is why
\ 18 the transmission section is included in the 17 Article VIII application. I simply think that 18 there is some reason for notice being of fe red to 19 the c ommunitie s tha t would be a f fec ted by the O
proposed transmission facilities included in the
- 21 Article VIII application, 22
," JUDGE MATIAS : I dontt know to what
' 23 e :< te n t it has been considered in othe r Article ,
P ARSONT REPORTING SERvlCE. INO.
2138 073
l 11" 1 VIII proceedings. That is something I would have 2 to look into. I re a lly d on ' t know. I don't .
., 3 know whether the Commission or the Siting Soard -
4 has a policy in this area or not. I j us t would 5 have to look. You have raised it and I will have 6 to look into this. Mr. Flynn, are you in a 7 position to address this at this time 9 a MR. FLYNN : I don't know, sir.
(
9 JUDGE MATIAS : I don't know the answer 10 to the cuestion either. I will look into it.
11 MR. QUINN: What I had in mind was nothing more than a notice in the newspaper.
12 -
13 JUDGE MATIAS : I unders tand. That is 14 c le a r . All right.
15 The re is one thing more that I wanted 16 to raise and I don't know what we can do, if 17 anything with this now but the notice on Fage i, 18 the notice of prehearing conference ind ic a te d 19 that we would be discussing procedures to be 20 employed as to the identification of issues that 21 would be the s ubj e c t of evidentiary he aringr 22 Now, I ga ther tha t would proba'ly c be s ome thing ,
23 Mr . G rey , that you would be approaching in the t
P AnsONT RtecRTina Stavscg. Inc.
2!38 074
110 i
proposal that you are going to be making here
, 2 within the ne x t several days. $
3 MR . C REY : Yes, within the nent saveral 4 wee ks . It really would be a part of the procedur es 5 that we would layout for the record on the joint a protocol.
7 JUDGE EATIAS : All right. There is
..f, a nothing I can do about that today.
9 MR GREY: No. There is nothing and 10 in the alternative, if there is no j oint protocol ,
11 we would layout the procedures, our protocol ,
12 procedures in the same way at about the same time .
13 JUDGE MATIAS : Okay then , identificaticn 14 of issues will oe some thing that we will be put-15 ~
ting berore you or I shoulc say our S tat wili
( 16 oe pucting ce rore you and you will have an 17 opportunity to comment on that at s ome time in the 18 fu tu re .
19 I have notaing further to take up.
20 Mr. Deyle ,
21 MR
, DEYLE: I would like to clarify the E
situa tion with respec t to the availa o' ility of
'., 23 c opie s of the application at the City of Oswego ,
PAnsONT REPCMTINo Samvict. INc.
2138 075
119 1 Public Library. There is, in fact, a copy at the 4
- 2 City of Oswego Public Library. ,
p 3 JUDGE MATIAS : What is the address for
~
4 that?
5 MR. DEYLE: The address is East Bridge 6 S tree t , that is the building that lies immediately 7 to the southwest of this building. I can't give l(' '
8 you the actual street address 'c u t it is on - -
9 oh, I am sorry, West Second S tree t.
10 JUDGE MATIAS : But that is the one at 11 120 East Second Street. -
12 MR. DEYLE: That is c orre c t .
r 13 JUDGE MATIAS: Tha't is not the one --
14 MR. DEY LE : No, that is the correct 15 address, 120 E a s t Se cond S tree t.
16 JUDGE MATIAS: All right.
17 MR. DEYLE: Would you like the hours 18 that that is open?
19 JUDGE MATIAS: Yes. That would be 20 he lp ful .
21 MR. DEYLE : It is open from 12 : 0 0 t o
- 22 9:00 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and it 23 is opene d from 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. on l ....m . .. _ .... ... _ . '~~ I 2138 076
120 6
1 Wednesday and Friday and it is open from 9:00 a.c .
l 2 to 5:00 p.m. on Sa turday.
3 JUDGE >MTtAS: All right. Then the 4 information I had gotten uas correct, that it was 5 in tha t library. Now, why did some of y ou - -
6 why weren't some of you able to find it over 7 there? That is the ne :< t question. .
. 8 MR. S AL OG A : As I s ta ted e arlie r, I 9 think as a result of the change in the NRC docu-10 mentacion over to he re , that everyone is in the -
11 habit of looking for information from that source 12 rather than at the public library now.
13 JUDGE MATIAS: All right.
14 MR. DEYLE: There is a copy of the 15 NYSEG application, the Public Service Commission -
l 16 part of it, the Article VIII part of it here in 17 this building and there is also a copy of the 18 entire application as submitted to the Nuclear 19 Regulatory Commission here in this building and 20 tnose are all cons olida ted into one hookcase as
- 21 I unders tand it. Only the Article VIII applica-22 tion is c on ta ine d in ~.he publiu library at this
'., %I point.
....o~,e._,,~.e.-,m.'~'
2138 077
121 s =
1 JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you.
2 DR. SCHWARTZ: My question is, how many 3 of the parties here today are going to come back '
4 after lunch and informally discuss these Staff 5 proposed rules of discovery? Can I have a show 6 of hands who are going to s tay around here af ter 7 lunch and discuss these?
7( ,
s (No response) 9 DR. SCHWARTZ: Let the record show --
10 excuse me, did you have something to say?
11 JUDGE MATIAS: If you re call, we set 12 a date by which you could respond in a written 13 fashion but the S taff has offered its good office s 14 to you today since they are here or by tele phone 15 any time you want to talk. Now, it is fairly -
C
-( 1s early in the day and they may be able to spend, 17 you know, a little while with you if you have got 18 any questions in that respect.
19 MRS. DALY: We would prefer to do it 20 right now be fore lunch as oppcsed to coming back.
- 21 JUDGE MAT IAS
- All right.
22 MR. GREY: Judge Matias, my phone 23 number is 51e 4~i4-651/.
N JUDGE MATIAS : All right. Do you want PassoNT REPomT:No SEnvict. INc.
2138 078
122 e
1 repeat that again, Mr. Grey?
2 MR. GREY: Yes, 518 474-6517. -
3 MR. ANDERSON:
Your Honor, I have a -
4
- r;estion. You have sugges ted that the town and 3
the village and city explore ways of ge tting 6
together. How soon do you have to be advised as 7
to the decision by the town regarding that 8
/' request?
\
9 JUDGE MATIAS : Let me say this, that 10 we hope to get to a decision on the funding thing 11 j ust as quickly as we can because I know that I 12 have urged you to move forward and you have to 13 know if you are going to ge t money to do it.
14 So, do it as quickly as you can. Now, o bv ious ly 15 nothing can be done be f ore Thursday because I aa _
16 going to be lis tening or we will be lis tening to 17 pe ople down in the S tuyve s ant area on Thursday 18 in the same area of funding. If you can ge t 19 to. ,e the r this af ternoon and talk it ove r and aske 20 a decision, if you could la t ce know j us t as 21
, quickly as you can, you can call me if you want 22 or write. Incidentally my number is 318 474-250E
. 23 and if I could know in a few days or e arly no::t P AR5cNT REPCATING SEMvfCE. INC.
2138 079
123 1 week, 5ould that be possible?
2 MR. ANDERSON: That would be fine. .
., 3 JUDGE MATIAS: And again, you don re ,
f 4 have to j oin toge ther but, ge n tle me n , I would 5 think tha t you would be more e f fe c tive if you did .
6 DR. SCENARTZ: If you are j oining 7 toge the r , it would have to 'e ; approved by the a legislative body or the council or - -
(-
~
s MR. ANDERSON: I think, I can't s pe ak 10 for all tha se bodies but I think wha t we could 11 advise is to whe ther or not the re wa s any intent 12 or basis for cooperation. Mos t as suredly that -
13 would all have to be certified by the appropriate 14 action of the Town Board and the County Legisla tute 15 and the Village Board.
16 DR. SCHWARTZ: Luc you would be a b le 17 to tell us you can't get toge the r I as sume ,
18 MR. ANDERSON: I think that as far as 19 the Town of New Haven is concerned, it can carry 20 out these discussions and from their viewpoint, 21 can decide uhe re it stands in a re la tive e::pe di-22 tious manner.
- 23 DR. SCHWARTZ
- That is good. Thank you.
t PassoNT Rgpcm71No Stevict, Inc.
2138 080
124 1
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I would like to 2
. say that formerly we have decided on informationa:
3 hearings that - - or informational mee tings that -
- 4 we have had, one was in this area and the other 5
was in the S tuyvesant area the last couple of
. 6 months, the Staff of the Public Service Commission 7
has environmental experts and our j ob essentially I,' - 8 is to represent the public interest. However, 8
our problem in many of these cases is to figure 10 out what is in the public in te re s t and in these 11 informational meetings we have asked people to 12 bring to us as soon as po s s ible any problems , ~
13 questions or issues they have and we are looking I'
for help from the pe ople in the area here a s we ll 13 as help from the people in the area of S tuyvesant. .
(_ '8 So, le t me give a few more phone numbe rs outside 17 of Mr. Grey.
18 Anyone tha t has a ques tion concerning 19 costs or engineering matters should call Jerry 20 Weber at 519 474-5541 Que s tions concerning 21 environme ntal ma tte rs should be addressed to 2
Bruce G . Dt le and his numbe r is 474-5363. So,
' n we look forward to hearing from you to help us f 1 PAnsoNr REPoR7tNo SamytcE. INC.
~ ~~
2138 081
125 m
I in de ter:aining wha t is in the public in te re s t .
- 2
. JUDGE MATIAS : Thank you. -
3 MR. DEYLE : May I ask a cuestion? -
4 Is the re some provision for reversing charges on 5
the phone calls to the Public S e rvice Commission 6
or some thing like that? I unders tand you have 7
some kind of tie lines available which we don't a
, have coming from this direction.
8 MR. FLYNN: You could always writa and 10 ask them to call you or you can call up, probably 11 that is the be s t thing, simply to call us and 12 then tell us you have a long discussion that you -
13 want to make and ue will call you back.
14 JUDGE MATIAS: Yes. If you call the 15 se cre tary , she will probably re fuse to accept the ,
' 16 charges. They j us t don't know who you are, for
'7 unde rs tand a ble re as ons . I think it is best that 18 you jus t call and ask that you be c a lle d a s e ar l:,
19 as possible . Tha t would me a nominal cos t to you 20 and well worth the immediate comaunication that 21 you would have and then c s taff member could
. re turn the call.
23
- Is there any thing else to take up?
t P A AsoNT REPcRTINo SERvict. INC.
2138 082
126 MRS. WEBER: I j us t have a question as
- 2
, - far as the location of the Article VIII hearings. ~
3
,. We were led to believe at t'te public cae tings 4
several =onths ago that the mee tings or the 5
hearings vill be held here in Osue g o C ounty . Is 6
that still true?
7 JUDGE MATIAS: You are talking about the evidentiary hearings.
9 MRS. WEBER: Yes.
JUDGE MATIAS : The Chief Federal Judge 11 called me the other day with this exact question .
12 and he said, will we be going up there in the 13 winte rtime , because they have heard stories about 14 the Oswego winters and our thought, to be serious for a noment, our th ou gh t is, we are going to 16 begin here and we will s tay he re as long as there 17 is interest. Now, the raas on I raise the winter 18 questions is that it may be difficult for us froa i
19 Albany and Washington to ge t in here in the 20 win te r tine . It could be tha t we would move to I 21 Syracuse if the public inte re s t is such that we 22
- could do that.
MRS. WEBER: My point is, equally as
~
9 g a LLsd VUJ
__. 12,7
<~
1 hard as it is for you to get ir. , there are times
. 2 when it is equally hard for us to ge t out.
3 JUDGE MATIAS: I understand that. We 4
would try to convenience as aany pe ople as possi-5 b le . I have also heard from pe ople in Colum' cia 6
County who would like to have hearings held down 7
there for obvf.ous reasons. This presents us uith 8
some difficulty because if you read the te s timony 8
that has been submitted, there is not one of 10 these s ite s that is a clear choice over the other 11 and so, the re f ore , I have a legitimate interest .
12 in the Columbia County area for the hearings.
13 Our plan is to go to as close to the s ite as 14 possible for as long as possible and we will just 15 proceed on an ad hoc oasis but ne will try to ge t
~
16 here as much as we can. We a re not going to 17 arbirrarily take it out of here and go to 18 Washington or Albany and j ust hold a lot of 18 hearings there that you uvuldn' t have access to 20 but if we are in s ome thing , say, in the middle of
- 21 January or February, we may end up in Syracuse 22 if weather conditions dic tate . It is hard to say n3 right now.
l .
p.ue .r as,o=,.~o scavice. i~c !
]} ))/4
123 1 MES. WEBER: Well, Syracuse wottidn' t be 2 as bad as Albany, , 3 ,. JUDGE NATIAS: I understand that. I 4 understand that. 5 MRS. UEBER: Thank you. 6 JUDGE MATIAS : Any thing e lse ? Yes. 7 MR. SCHUTT: I guess the first comment 8 I would like to make, I uould like to urge the 9 Examiners to maintain a list of the formal partie s 10 to this because an applicant really cannot taka 11 the chance of its own determination of who is - 12 indeed a party at any given time and we have to 13 mail to everybody, regardless of how long that 14 lis t is and - - excuse me, all right, I will 15 speak louder. We have to mail to everybody who 16 has ever appeared on the list forever and ever 17 because if he is a party, he is entitled to le notice and as a lawyer for an applicant, I can't 19 re ally say tha t it is safe to serve an active 20 party lis t unless the list is formally adopted 21 and it seems tv me at this point that we have -- 22 if there is a formal de termination as to who is c 23 ' party, it would be appropriata for the Examiner
.....~,e.....,~....m.,~.
2138 085
129 1 to issue that and as we de te rmine that pe op le 2 become inactive and maybe ne would have to broaden - 8 the s e. rvic e list to some that unne to be a party - 4 and if so, notify us and shorten the list that 3 way because we have had this problem in Article 8 VIII proceedings with who is a party and who is 7 entitled to se rvice and I ge t very nervous about 8 f not serving anyone who has been a party. 8
, JUDGE MATIAS : Zut you have overlooked 10 one complication on that is, that with this 11 proceeding, we have two proceedings with tuo 12 applicants, one the 8000s and one is the NRC 13 proceeding.
14 MR, SCHUTT: I could manage to different 15 party lis ts but what I can' t manage is an informal _ I8
. de termination of who is a party made by myself 17 and take the chance that it may encompass c. ore 18 people than I perceive to be active parties.
19 JUDGE MATIAS: No, you raise a matter 2 that has concerned me f or s ome time . Does the 21
- S taff have any thoughts along those lines?
22 MR. FLYNN: Perhaps as an addendum to . 23 one of your Honor's prehearing conferenca rulings, t PsnsonT Rtronisho Sinvect. Inc. 2138 086
l 130 1 you could attach a list of who the partie s are . 2 JUDGE MATIAS: Dr. Schwart and I will
. 3 get toge ther and develop a list and we will be '
4 the ones who will change it if it needs changing 5 in the future. So, if you follow that, Mr. 6 Schutt then you can always blame me. 7 MR. SCHUTT: Fine. I would be happy ec a
/ _'
bl,ame you. ~ 8 Now, the second aspect of this is, over 10 a period of time with the various and sundry 11 proceedings that I have been involved in, se rv ice 12 has become rather informal, in fact, uith some
~
13 people it has become non-e::is tent where I have 14 not received documents I uas entitled to. 15 I would , the re fore , note for those - 16 parties who are at le as t present, that when they 17 send any communication to your Honors or the 18 Siting Board or the Public Service C ommis s ion 19 with respect to this case, a copy should come to 20 my office. 21 Another aspe ct of that same que s tion, 22
, in some proceedings pe o ple of limited financial ; 23 resources have been asking the Public Service 7, -
PansoNT RcromTINo Stavice. INC. 2138 087
131 1 Commission to copy the documents and make s e rv ice . 2 I have no argument with that procedure if the
.. 3 Public Service Commiss ion vants to do so. 'd ona ve rp g 4 the re is a severe time lag problem which I might 5
also s tate , for instance, had 2cology Action 6 today made its motion by service on the Commissicn 7 and then asked the Commission to mail and serve
/(~
8 the party lis t, that document would undoubtedly 0 be sent to the reproduction room of the Commissien la where it would be copied in due course, de pe nding 11 on the work load of that 'c ody' and the n ma ile d ou t . 12 Under those circumstances it may well be that I ~ 13 will not re ce ive a copy of that until ten days 14 af ter it has ceen served. Now, the re gets to be 15 a ques tion of how much time do I have to respond. (' 16 As we go deeper into the proceeding around the 17 brie fing s tage s uhe re 'orie fs are supposed to be 18 submitted in thirty days and replies fif teen days 19 thereafter, if service is through the Commission 20 and I receive it five days la te r , I do not hcve 21 an appropriate amount of time to respond. I am 22
, also beginning to ge t documents all due on the 23 same da te out I am ge tting them at various days t
PAmsoNT REMg7tNG SEMvict. INc. 2138 088
132 1 af ter the date and I have no aosolute solution
, 2 to this problem.
.. 3 , There are a couple or things tnat occut ~ 4 4 to =e. One would ce, on any sche duling , ir this 5 proce dure is to be adopted , tnat time 11mics ce 6 se t ultn tnat possio111Cy in mind. It may oc 7 Cnat parties seeking to take advantage of the f- 8 Commission's doing their se rvice , will Se 9 re quire d to file on a data s oone r than othe rwise , 10 Another thing that I sus pec t might relieve s ome 11 of the burdens of service is that it would . 12 possibly be acceptable to some pe o p le to only 13 serve the applicants if the position they are 14 taking is primarily adverse to the applicant's I 15 position but I think as an applicant, I certainly - 16 should be one of the first to re ceive any paper 17 which is adverse to my positton or my client's 18 position, er.cuse me. 19 JUDGE lGTIAS : I unde rs tand tha t. Nou, 20 again you raise a good point, Mr. Schutt. I 21
, knew of the practice. I was not aware that it 22 had been causing that kind of a problem, although 23
~
I can readily see that it would. t 9 PAmsca 7 RtpomTING SEmvlCE. INC. e
1JJ l 1 MR. SCHUTT: I have one illustratica 2 whe re a brie f was re ferred to as submitted by a ~ 3 party who mailed it through the Commission and ' t 4 in a brief of another party and it was at least 5 a week and a half later that I re ce ive d the brief 6 to which reference was made and I mean, that.is 7 j us t really not ac ce p ta ble , r' 8 JUDGE >MTIAS : We will try to stay on 8 top of that in this proceading and I don't know IU right nou, it is a little difficult to say who II wi,11 be the active p a r tie s . Pe ople drop out as 12 ' we go along and when we ge t a situation where tha t I3 happens here , ue will s oon know and we will ge t I4 to the point whe re we know who is active and 15
,, then we can ascertain what their clans are and
' 16 plan accordingly. Don't le t me forge t , Mr.
17 Schutt. Raise tha t early in the proceeding 18 because I do see that as a coming problem because 19 I have had it in more than one proceeding. 20 All right. 21 MR. SCHUTT: Excuse me , one final thing , for those pe ople seeking informal discovery, they
- n can direct ques tions to my office, 99 Park Avenue,
(" c PansoNT REPCRTING SERYlCE INC. 2138 090
134 I New York City, Zip Code 10016. Our phone n u m'c c r
- 2 is 212 682-6200. Ques tions may also be dire c te d 3
to Mr. M. J. Ray at the company's address in - 4 p Binghamton, that is Ves tal Parkway , singhamton, 5 New York. 6 Telephonc ques tions can be made to the 7 company's phone number, Area Code 607 729-2531,
,, a Extension 467 which is the ex tens ion of Mr.
8 Thomas Hadwin so that when he answers and says, 10 Thomas Hadwin, you will know you have got the 11 right person. 12 JUDGE MATIAS: Is there any thing 13 dif fe re n t other than your hume address and phone 14 numcer, is the re anything different than what you 15
/
indicated in the le tter of March 1, 19799 _ 16 MR. SCHUTT: Yes. It is s lightly 17 dif fe re n t. For record keeping purposes we would 18 like all written communication to flow across the 19 desk of M. J. Wright who is the Proje ct Manager. 20 Tha t enables us to ge t them into the appropriate 21 files and keep track of what is coming in. 22
, Te le phonic corre s pondence I think is in accord I with our le tter except tha t we have now fe lt it PassoNT REPCATING SERVf CE. INC, 2138 091
135 1 would be be tte r to communicate through Mr. Hadwin 2 rather than through two people when I have given - 3 you the names of Mr. Celnik and Mr. Hadwin. - 4 t DR. SCHWARTZ: Then you will undertake 3 to ge t the motion to dis =iss to LILCO. 6 MR. SCHUTT: We will tele-c opy to thea 7 or hand deliver it in s oca way . 8
'/ DR. SCHWARTZ: Fine.
8 JUDGE MATIAS: All right, Mr. Anderson. 10 MR. ANDERS ON : Could you repeat the 11 name of that law firm for the utility? 12 - MR. SCHUTT: The name is Huber, Magill, 13 Lawrence & Farre ll. If you would like , I have 14 a liaited number of cards . If you are also 15 calling my office and if I an not there, Mr. . k 16 Spindel or Mr. Phinizy will be glad to answer the 17 phone. 18 JUDGE MATIAS: I think que s tions liha 19 this can ;e handled off tha record. Mr. Schutt
*0 will be around for a little while and so vill the 21 S taff and if you have any inquiries like that 22 ,. and you want to writa down phone numbers, you I will have an opportunity .
g PansoNT RzecatiNo Stavecc. INc 2138 092
136 1 Mr. Anderson, did you want to say 2 s ome thing e lse ? e 3 MR . ANDERS ON : Yes, Based on other - 4
, expe rience that I have been involved with in s
hearings of this nature, I jus t uould like to 6 request on behalf of the Toun of New Haven that 7 whatever is decided with regard to subcittal of 8 information, whe ther it is to be our responsi-8 bility or the PSC and the tiain3 and all the 10 things that the Applicant has j us t discussed, 11 we would like to know as soon as possible 12 formally what those procedures are so we can plar - 13 accordingly. The coun's intention is to act as 14 a constructive participant in ene se nearings and 15 we would like to do so cons tructively. _ I
16 JUDGE MATIAS: You will ce a party to 17 the proceeding and you util oe , as you attend the 18 nearings , you will know unen we set dates. Tne O
dates will ce -- tnere will ce da tes :or tne 20 Applicant or cates tor ene S ta te a ge nc ie s or 21 there will be da te s for intervenors and you will 22 ,,- be one of the in te rvenors . 93 J MR. ANDERSON: I en jus t s ay ing , like, I pu.o~r n e, earma se,vice. i~c. I-i
137 1 for example, today we could have had available
. 2 suf ficie nt copies of the proposal of the coun, 3 you know, for parties of interes t. If that is ,
4 to be the rule that is to be followed, we would 5 like to know and plan accordingly. 6
, JUDGE bMTIAS : Those most de finicaly 7 are the rules and I will say this to all, whenever 8
f-you come into the hearing room and you have got 9 a document and you want to have it ma rke d , y ou 10 can he t your bottom dollar that everybody is 11 going to want a copy of it. I mean, j us t assume 12 that everybody is going to want it so be sure - 13 you bring encugh. 14 All right. There was a question over 15 on this side of the room. _ 16 (No response) 17 JUDGE MATIAS : All right, any thing else 19 you want to take up? 19 (No response) 23 JUDGE SMTIAS : All right. I gather not. 21 All right. We will s tand in recess until 22 Thursday morning, March 22. We will be meeting 23 ' in Albany at 10:00 o' clock and then la te May
't par sos 7 REPORTING S ERVICE. INC, 2138 094
13 7 IA 1 f or public s ta tement hearings . Chay.
. 2 (tmERE UPON , the above proceedings uere 3 adj ourne d to Albany , New Y ork , on ,
4 Thursday, March 22, 1979, commencing at a 5 10:00 o' clock a.m.) 6 7 r,- 8 9 2138 095 10 11 12 13 14 15 A IS 17 18 19 A 21 22 23 ' a PA4SONY REPORTING Samvict. INC.}}