ML19259B175
| ML19259B175 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/18/1977 |
| From: | Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7901170044 | |
| Download: ML19259B175 (90) | |
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1i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COIGIISSION i
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COMMISSION MEETING 4!
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I BUDGET 7
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I 16I Room 1130 August 18, 1977 ll 1717 H Street, N.C.
3:40 p.m.
17 lj Washington, D.
C.
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19-t 20:
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ll The corrections made on this
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the Office of the Comptroller j"
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nd Office of the Secretary.
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1 Commission members present were:
i 21 JOSEPH M.
HENDRIE, Chairman 3
VINCENT GILINSKY, Commissioner 4!
I RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commissioner Also present:
6l Samuel J.
Chilk, Secretary 7
John C. Hoyle
Participants:
I Lee V. Gossick 9
Learned W.
Barry 10 !,
n Kenneth S. Peders$n 11 r
William J.
Dircks 12 i
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Here we are gathered -- If I can 3
find these offices.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which ones are you looking for?
5l I
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Admin, EDO and Commission.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that what we are going to 8
focus on?
9; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
i 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Together -- and throw on the back-12 end of the session anything you'd like to recycle on others.
13 This was just by way of scratching our heads for first crack 14 over these of fices, as we did over the five major program 15 offices the other day.
16l we may decide then that we 'd like one or ano ther 17 of these of fices to come back and join one of the sessions we 18 l have already scheduled for another --
hear once again nat 19 they have to say, and so on and -- Okay.
20 How would it strike you to start with the Office 21 of Administration and work right back through the book.
22f You've got the big one, but I assume it's ordered about the 23 same way.
24 I guess I've found the -- Everybody seemed to be ll (d
ne, na w.2 c w cav, g ('
25 moderately cheerful about the fund support level at 28.8,.
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How do you feel about that as an initial checkpoint?
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I notice Level 3 here in 3
Personnel promises increased union activity.
4 (Laughter.)
5 MR. GOSSICK:
That's no light matter, really. We're i
6 beginning to see it. We really are.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Apparently you don't get it 8!
at Level 2.
S'bNh 9 1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If we stock to Level 1 or 2, we
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i 10 can apparently avoid a good deal of labor trouble.
Il MR. GOSSICK:
I think we are going to have it, I2 regardless --
13' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
This thing, it's not quite in the Idi same terms. Maybe these summary sheets only came --
f 15 MR. GOSSICK:
This is a useful summary sheet it's the -
l 16 you've got it in the smaller size, but it's got all the numbers I7 the numbers there.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I've got it in the larger size.
I9 MR. GOSSICK:
Oh, have you?
Okay, there you are.
20 I thought I saw it.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
He's got special dispensation.
22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Nobody wanted to let me have one. It might be released.
In draf ts, we have a policy that 23!
24 we don't release; right?
i u n.n so,,,,.; comen 25 MR. GCSSICK:
Once, but no more.
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(Lauchter.)
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay.
The Adminstrative -- There 31 were four categories of dollar numbers.
The Headquarters 4
Administrative Support there seemed to be a convergence 5,
finally of views at S28,760,000.
l 6
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Now what was the significance 7
there between the BRG number and the EDO number?
$5 million?
8; MR. GOSSICK:
Okay.
Jus t ve ry b rie fly, first there 9
was a matter of the document retrieval, there not having been a 10i lower number that the BRG came up with.
I lli And then there was a matter of sorting out who was I
- DP 12l funding things like GDB, and other:. things between the line 7
~t offices and the Administration; is that correct?
1:3 14 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
Keep in mind in this particular 15 division unit title, Administrative Support, it really is 16f administrative support to everybody.
It comes under 17 Mr. Ibnoghue, but it's really for all of us.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
It's got computer costs for 19 everybody in the whole --
20 MR. BARRY: Right.
Eve ry thing.
It was a combination 21 of several things.
One, there was some confusicn as to whether j][?{'
22 ADB was in there, or whether it wasn' t, and on the first I
oN 23l go-around, the people in Administration, when they put the I
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24 first budget together, they doubled-counted, They had aDB f
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- a. w i.,,o c o m 25l in there twice.
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's good.
That provides a lot 2
of slack in the budget.
3 MR. BARRY:
We knocked it out.
4 The first submission of the Administrative Support 5
Budget, I have to confess, was not all that great, and so, 6
we did a scrub of it.
I get pretty involved in Administrative 7
Support,-and so we finally got my budget guys together with 8,
Dan's budget guys, and we went through the thing line item 9
by item, and we're in agreement now, that this is the right i
10 number.
g-J Il CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It sounds as though it's has a 12 reasonable degree of scruti ny and-degree, and it certainly 3
J 13 seems reasonable to me.
And I suggest we let it stand.
14 Now, the other three dollar items were $ 300,000 for 15i travel and $200,000 for training. This is travel just within--
I i
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that is billed to the Of fice of Administration, and I mus t 17 say, after the Budget --
after Review Group and EDO mark, 18 I'm not inclined to quibble about that up or down about number s.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Nor I am.
20l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Having just moved rapidly across 21 28 million and change, why I don't feel compelled to hand-tool
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22 the bicycle shed, now that\\q we ' ve authorized --
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
The change was indeed greater e
i 24 j than this lineup.
I t no R+e.ng Corro.my l 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
I think it can't be far off.
1 i
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Training, much the same ca tegory, aad the final 2
dollar thing was capital equipment money, or just equipment 3
money at NRC, but that was at the order of $100- to $200,000, 4
And I think quite properly the Budget Review Group said, "For -
5 pity's sake, you've got an administrative support item, of, you 6
know, $25-to $30 million to make this equipment just one more 7
line in that budget, and let us not treat it as a decision 81 unit all by itself.
9 In fact, I'm not quite sure why Travel and Training i
10 is separated out.
Ili COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We have to have them shown 12 separately, anyway.
I 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They do?
Okay.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Why is the number in '78 15 so large, I mean, 39 million, as compared with 28 million in '79 )
I 16!
MR. BARRY:
The headquarters administrative support 17 and --
18 MF.-GOSSICK:
The '78 number was --
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 22 million, wasn't it?
20 MR. GOSSICK:
22 million, 21.88.
And the office 21l request was 38 million.
I 22 Mk. BARRY:
A little more than 38 million.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Vic is looking at the first sheer 24 lin the summary book under Of fice of Administration with numbers Reg /tiesg C0r' Cerv l M ~ ct 25 l3n it.
It's the second sheet in the pack, and he is quite right.
I
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It says FY '78 revised estimates, Headquarters, Administrative 2
Support, $ 39 million.
3l' MR. BARRY :
That was incorrect.
dl' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. Just an error on the sheet. '
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Suppose we turn to the Headquarters, Administrative Support decision unit.
6 7
And you look at package level one, $36 million.
8' MR. B ARRY :
Yes, you see, this was predicated on l
I Admin requests for Admin Support. And, As I say, when I first 9
I 10 came in,they had double ADP, and they had some other errors II in there, and they --
I2, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, I see, so these numbers 13 are all wrong.
k Id MR. BARRY :
Those numbers, added to that 38.4 which l
4 1
i i
15 is wrong.
I 16i C'WISSIONER KDEDY: They're on the next page; aren't they?
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's the number that contains 18 a lot of duplication.
And then af ter Ecnoghue saw this, that I9 shocked everybody so..dee ply, that they all got serious and 20 agreed on that.
21f COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
The next page shows those 22l l
numbers, some of them, i
23l
- 52. BARB (: Once we found that there was such an I
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error in this sheet, we really should have given you a new
.m amn.no co-c e, i 25 sheet.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Now, this does include this 2
twenty --
3 MR. BARRY:
-- eight million.
4 d
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- 28 million does include 5
l the document retrieval?
6!
MR. BARRY:
It does.
And it includes now computer-7 type support which in '78 we had program -- in program support 8,
I amongst all organizations.
We will do a comparability adjust-9l j
ment in our budget submission for '78 so you won't really see 10!
a big increase between -- a very large increase between '78 and '79, 11 as you do on this sheet.
It will be very close.
I think it's 12, l
a million and a half dollar diffe22noe.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So you've gone over that 14 in great detail.
15 MR. BARRY:
I have.
I get very concerned about administrative support in this agency.
So(Ifd I,,E COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
f f 18 i'
MR. BARRY:
So Mr. Kennedy does, and if he does, 191 l
I do too.
20!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I'm counting on both of you.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, with regard to personnel i
22 in the Office of Administration, there is a 4 8-person incremen t.
23 And if I get Dan Donoghue's --
24 MR. BARRY:
Of the 4 8 increment, really, the
%m,ng cc,an,
,s 25 reason it is that large, remember you' ve got 29 people in the
bw9 9
I security function. of the 48.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, in particular, Len, 24 of 3
th e --
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I thought they were on security 5
MR. BARRY:
They are on security.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, we're talking about the 7
total personnel.
Okay.
8 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Of the increase in Administration 9
of 48 people, 29 of them are in the security province.
10l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And of those you would regard II five slots for just increased workload under sort of present 12, circumstances.
And there is a block then of 24 out of the 13 total of 48 that are contingent on the --
I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- the decision we won't 15 !
make until October.
16l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
the decision that we -- now.
QS 37 pwu It looks to me as though the 24 wh-ich not associated with 18 the comino decision, my cuess is thev're probably go -- without 19 great expense.
And they' re probably well deserved.
I've 20 watched the Administrative Office over the years --
2I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: These are security office.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, what I'm saying is that the 23 i
24 slots out of the 48, which are not the ones that go with the i.
24l new security regulations, my inclination is to regard those m %
no c a n l 25 l as a valid and fairlv conservative estimate of fair needs,
and i
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I'd be inclined to go along with it.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Historically, Admin has had 3
less personnel increases than anybody else in the organi-4 zation, and I, therefore, would agree with you.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I can remember clear back into the 1
6 Reg. Staff, when we were gunning-up technical review and the 7
projects crowd, and so on, why, we, you know, we used the 8!
slots, every slot we could get our hands on, for an engineer i
9 i to review applications.
And the administrative people sort of 10 made do with overtime and great hordes of temporary people, Il and consultants and --
I2l MR. GOSSICK: They still are.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
They still are.
14 MR. BARRY:
You heard it this morning once, and that 15 was probably enough, but, believe me, when AEC split, ERDA ran 16 off with the Admin-type support.
Everything. They really 17 did.
18 MR. GOSSICK:
Well, the bulk of the other 24, con-I9 tracting, which we just simply have got to get a better 20 capability there, and we've been -- you know -- I've been 21 reallocating spaces and putting them in there, jus t when we 22 had to meet the requirement. And this document retrieval thing 23 is --
24 ll COMMISSIONER KENNEDY. One way would be to see if u mo wxurio Campany 25 we couldn't cut some o f the contracts.
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MR. GOSSICK:
Well, we could.
There's been some 2
impetus to, you know, go outside of the National Labs, you know 3 1 when it made sense to, and not just go solely there.
So I 4
think the number will continue to grow somewhat. But even now,'
5 we're operating sort of out of our hip pocket on the contractin g l
6 side.
7 Now, on the security thing my insistence in making i
8l sure BRG has these spaces, there, that we had them in our 9
budget was to make sure that they were flagged, you know, if I
10 these rules are put into effect, we can't wait really till 11
'80 to ask for the resources, I don' t believe.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
I think the point here, is if the 13 Commission decides this year to implement that, we're going to 14 need those positions in '78.
15j MR. GOSSICK:
It will be somewhat of a '78 problem.
l 16l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, my own inclination would 17 be to support the full 48.
24, because I think it's well 18 l merited and the contingent 24 because I have a suspicion that i
l 19' things are likely to go in the direction which would --
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Len, stop me if I'm wrong.
21 We have another shot to take it out, if we want to, because 22; the decision will be made in October, probably, and, if it's i
23 decided not to do it, OMB would be delighted to hear that we 24l would like to drop 24 spaces.
If, at that point, however, we c, am,.,y c-n, i 25 decided to put them in, and didn't have them in there, OMB
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bwl2 12 I
would not be the least bit delighted to hear that we wanted 2
24 more.
So it would seem to me that the wise course would 3
be to leave them in, put them in now.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
What do you think, Vic?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I don' t know. I don't l
6 think the whole idea of putting these requirements on the 7
indus try.is a good tactic.
Certainly if we are going to go on 8!
in the way of monitoring these people. So --
9 CHAIRMAN 'IENDRIE : Well, we do have the door, you I
101 know, if there's modification, and that's a subject that I have 11 some interest in understanding a. good deal better than I do, 12 we can take action, we can always -- The chances are that by 13 that time OMB will have taken enough out so that --
14 MR. GOSSICK:
We may want to keep them in there 15 and relabel them.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
If we decide we don' t need these 17 people, there won' t be a problem in not having them.
And, on 18 that basis, then I would be inclined to support the EDO mark 19 on the Administrative Of fice, if that's okay.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Okay.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, that brings me to -- Well, 22.let's see --
I 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So long as that doesn ' t 24 iprejudice their consideration of this.
I
.o. o % - no cc.vo mv 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Doesn' t what?
2, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
No.
l 3
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Oh, prejudice consideration 4i of the underlying issues.
5!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Of the underlying issues.
No, l
6!
I would feel absolutely unimpeded by this --
i 7l (Laughter.)
t 8 !
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
My colleague will never give i
9 up, is what he's saying.
I 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Now, it appears to me we may have 11l some other decision units in other of fices that may be con-
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12l sidered this way, but in particular it seems to me that this 13 decision unit, after Len gets the numbers perfected a little 14!
bit -- for instance >
I don't know that I see any need for i
15' OMB to see Level 1 on Administrative Support dollars at a 16 number which we now know to be incorrect. It will just raise i
i 17i the same kind of comments, you came down and so on.
i 18j COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do these things go to them?
I 19l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
Eventually, they probably 1
20j
- will, I
21' MR. BARRY:
Decision units will go to them and, in i
22l fact, decision packages, which are nothing more than the levels 23; You may recall, we have to submit a minimum level, a current 24 level, and at our pleasure, any additional-levels.
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Ace-Feoercl Recorters, Inc.;
25l Now, these -- Keep in mind again, all these t
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analyses yo'u see on here, which are critical analyses, will 2i not be on these sheets.
The sheets that will go to OMB will l'
3l be NRC's justification of the level we desire.
I 4l Now, in fact, I think -- Let me say again, the 5 ll actual format, the decision unit format, the decision package 6li format that we send to them initially, are not even these 7
sheets. They' re the ones that you have looked at in your I
other books, the two books --
8 9!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : They ' re the ones in the f at books.
i 10j MR. BARRY: The f at books. And they'll be improved 11.
over what you've seen, but they're still, in my judgment, l
121 almost useless.
I I am going to send this format to OMB, in order 13j i
14 j to give them something to --
h 15 ;'
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
After you've shell-shocked them, i
16i they'll probably a~k for them, right?
s 17 MR. BARRY:
Then gibe them these, and say, "Look 18i what great fellows we are to help you do your budget."
i 19l MR. GOSSICK:
Nevertheless, the point of the $39 i
20 !
million personnel will clean that out.
21 MR. BARRY:
These sheets here, they will not see 22 a single sheet in this book.
l 23; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, Len metioned to me earlier 24 today that he believes that OMB would be deeply grateful, Ace-Fedarol Recor*ers, Inc. f 25; even though we have an extension to Septebber 15th for the
15 I
l' bw15 whole budget, if we could come across the street with decision 2;
units that we were prepared to sign off on, earlier than 34] September 15th.
41 j
As we go along, then, I think it's useful to be Si on the lookout for pieces of the overall budget which we 6l feel sufficiently comfortable with to be able to tell Len to i
71 i
go ahead 'and put it in final form and take it across to OMB.
8; I wonder if this one may not be that sort of unit.
9l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, this one, of course, 10 j exis ts at all only to the extent that all the others do.
f 11l Thus, one would assume that this one would be the last one that i
12' one would do.
He would first establish whatever he was 13l proposing to do in a progranmatic way and then, only after i
14l having done that, would he move in and develop his administrati ve i
15' support for that; wouldn' t he?
15; MR. BARRY:
I think --
171 l
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's a good point.
18!
MR. BARRY:
I think on the EDO and Commission 19l offices, if we settle on those, those would be good candidates.
i 20!
I think, as an example, when you are on your 1
21 second iteration.of standards, you're going to find it pretty i
22i easy, I'd send that one over.
23 l!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But perhaps this one might wait.
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24:
Ace-Federal eeporers. inc.j MR. BARRY:
Mr. Kennedy is right, yes, sir.
On 25:
j this one I'd wait, because this is fine-tuning as a function t
11
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of people. If our people come down, this will come down.
l 2l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Good point, as a matter of fact.
3j Good, let us charge at the EDO.
i aj I don't know, Lee.
They only allowed you Level 1 i
l 5l in your office.
Too bad.
i i
6l MR. GOSSICK:
Well, that didn' t really give me any 7
problem.
We kept it as austere as we could in the front 8
office. And I can give you, you know, t'he breakdown of these 9
23 people, but that includes, you know, the mail control 10 operation that services, really, the whole staff out there.
11l It's not the mailroom, but it's the correspondence i
12j control, which is under Tom Rehm, and Steve Hanauer and his 13 l; little operation, and Bill and I, and Rehm and the three gals,
14!
and now we've got Hugh Thompson, who's just recently joined 15!
us.
I 16l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, you know, if you guys 17:
would just improve at five percent per year, and we could I
18 drop one slot, you know, every year, and just get down to 19l you and Lee -- boy, that would be a marvelous example.
20; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
One of them uould have to 21 go before Shirley goes.
22:
( Laugh te r. )
NuMWL e
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h0ICr:
True.
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I ' 11 buy tha t.
AceJederal Reporters, lec. ;
25 i Okay.
Can't complain about Level 1, the Of fice of
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the Controller.
No change from the '78 staff.
2 Fow come the program support is about of what it is
.3i
! estimated for '78?
Are vou doing somethina in '78 tha t 4j vou're --
5 MR. BARRY:
In '78 we are buying minicomputers for 6! our payroll and accounting system, we're never going to buy 7
again.
And, in fact --
O j CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : These are the little -- like this i
91 l one?
i 10' MR. BARRY:
No, this minicomputer is fair size, but 11l in comparison to a standard computer, it's small --
t 12!
i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Good.
I was going to say if it's 13 '!these things, they're going to disappear at 15 percent per i
l 14 iyear, and you ought not to --
l 15h MR. BARRY:
No.
We have been getting our payroll 16} and accounting systems support out of ERDA, and 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, and they' re cutting us of f.
18 MR. BARRY: And they're cutting us off.
If we went 19i l to leased service, it would cost us $2 million a year.
We 1
20; came up with minicomputers that will do a perfect job, give us l
21 control and cost us a half a million dollars a year. So --
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The Commissioners will watch with 23: acute interes t to see if salary checks will arrive on time and
.I 24 1 Ace Federal Reporters. Inc.; correct and --
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- and appropriate size.
1 I
0 18 I
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And if they do, why this move 1
2:
will be applauded.
i 3;
MR. BARRY:
Precisely the reason we 've gone to these l
4j computers is because, twice a month, I get very nervous, because w
on several
'ays, we 've out at ERDA all night, around the clock, working, running their computer to get ' ur payroll out.
Our guys running their computer.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
8' i
MR. BARRY:
You Know, it makes you nervous.
9
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10!
think will keep us --
j)i MR. BARRY:
That permits us a level, I think, we 12 will keep financial management under control and sort of_ taper 13 it down.
j4
,3; CHa mrAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
The Planning and Analysis I
i 16!
Office is now, I believe, at 16 people --
MR. GOSSICK:
The 17th one in '78 was literally to p
cover an intern, the person was there before.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Up to 17 in '78 and no change 79; I
20l in '79.
The program support dollars about the same.
21 I mus t say I -- Well, for budget purposes I would be inclined to let it stand at that.
At some point along the 22;
- 23) line I'd really like to discuss with the -
Commission, 24 d and some of the aspects of this sort of function in, across J
Ace-Feueral Reporters. Inc.
his tier of offices, as well as ours.
25-i
i 19 ji COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, you know if you look at, bw19 2;
there's Planning and Analysis, the Controller, Mcdonald --
i 3l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Mcdonald's shop, yes.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Pederson, McTieran, to some.
4 extent.
There are an awful lot of --
5,l gl CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
-- overviewers.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-overviewer.
7 i
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And then, you know, I think it g
i 9 ! may be the right number, or it may be not the right number.
I l
And I think it's worth a look.
10, But from the standpoint of the budget exercise, why lij h
12' I would be inclined just to leave this at -- since it's not l
lbf
-C 13 been proposed for any notable change in '78, I propose just tog b
it stand.
14!
MR. DIRCKS:
They are not only only overviewers, 15l i
16!
they are, in effect, utility infielders, too.
r.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
You are talking about 17 18 '
Planning and Analysis.
h 19 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, some of these offices across-the-20 board.
If you get a paperwork reduction effort going, it's l
21:
easy to throw it in thic office, and get them to sit in on 22 meetings down at OMB, sit in on mee, tings with the Paperwork it Commission and monitor ef forts and keep track of how much we 'vc 23i 24 ]
reduced it or increased it in a period.
Ace-Fe<ieral Recor+ers, lec. O This is work that we have to do, and we either do 1:
25:
i
20
?
1 bw20 1l there or throw it over to the Program Office.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: There's a question it seems l
3l to me, whether you want, like five dif ferent of fices --
l 4
MR. GOSSICK:
That's a point that I would like to
~
5q address, to just mention.
I'm not so upset about the kinds of i
6; functions that we're doing, some of which we perhaps should be l
71 doing more or better, I'm concerned about the number of places I
8 they're being done in.
I would like to see us fit some of this 9l stuf f toge ther, so that it makes a little better sense.
10i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
But I think that's a thing that II we need to approach with caution and in a very considered sort 12; of way and certainly not in the context of driving for a final i
13 mark on a budget.
I think, you know, just leave it in place i
14 [ for the present.
15; The next one, the Office of Equal Employment 16j Opportunity, proposed to add one person over the
'78, primarily,
17:
I believe, to cover the Hispanic side of the house.
lsJ
- O 18.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Do we have to justify,p an 19i organization of our size, a Hispanic program coordinator?
r 20!
MR. GOSSICK:
You know,one can even -
you know, one 1
21, can argue that we cannot, however, it's a program that we 22 have had letters from the President on, and everything else,
23{
about trying to push, and I don' t know what's going to come 24; out of it.
Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc.j 25:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I know, but in order to push i
21 l that, does one have to hire a person to do nothing but that, is bw21 2li my question?
I' MR. GOSSICK:
I can even ask the same question about 3
4l the EEO of fice itself.
Many, many agencies of our size do not, a
me ce.
5 i
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
We have an EEO office now 6
with four people --
7 9
8:
i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY -- which for an agency of this 9
size is sizable. 'It is sizable and considerable.
10 I
MR. GOSSICK:
This one, I must say, the gal is on j)l 12l board, she's an intern -- I think you've all met her.
GX IISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, yes.
13 MR. GOSSICK:
And the reason we 're putting the jj q i
g )(~
- E C*
^
15 V
l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : She's an outstanding young l
lady, there 's no question about that. I am only wondering 77 jgl whether we can afford to think in terms of -- We're talking about one body and one human being --
j9 I
c1R. GOSSICK:
Since we're in a closed meeting, 20l I w ul like, if I may, to make a statement.
21 Mr. Tucker has let i t be known that he would really 22:
like to find another job, and I am doing everything I can to 23; if we can find him an appropriate place in the organizatior 24 [j see He took the job -- He was talked into it, if you will Ace 4ederal Reporters, Inc.
25l l
l
i l
22 I
bw22 i
I.
And I think we can* improve that situation, considerably.
I 2!
There are some difficulties with the woman's program, inter-3' facing.
4 So this is an area that I probably will end up back 5l at the same Level 4, We would not replace Dr. McHugh(?).
6 We did ask for this fif th person last year.
Now, then we 7
took it out.
Probably will take it out this year.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It says here "A Level 3 would 9ffree the director from the mundane chores, such as the i
10l affirmative action plan preparation."
l Il!
( Laugh te r. )
I2!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Management information and 13!
Program Control.
There are 51 slots now, proposed to increase I4 to 54 in
'78.
l 15l By the way, I meant to ask this morning, Len, are i
i 16 these ' 78 numbers on manpower for these of fices, do they I7 correlate with the current '78?
Your best '78 judgment.
IOl MR. BARRY: The current '78 that you and I discussed,
'i 190 no, because that will come down now.
They did -- The answer's i
20:,, no, because one, they don't reflect anything for '78 that 21 we are having to take 33 reductions. And they don't reflect a
22 now what our supplemental will show.
23; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don ' t have with me the shee t, I
,'~ 4 Could Ace-federal Reporters, Inc.] which would have sugges ted where this o f fice would go.
q 25 l you tell --
l i
i 23 j
l I
MR. BARRY:
This office would go in ;78 to 51.
2j CHAIRMAN HEDRIE :
They're now at 51?
l 3'
MR. BARRY: Well, yes.
Well, they were authorized 4
at 52.
Now they will go to 51.
i 5l MR. GOSSICK: Well, the decision package sheet shows t
6f
'77 at 51, ' 78 at 54, Len.
I 7!
MR. BARRY:
Yes, that's because Mcdonald thought his l
8!
baseline 50, plus the four in the amendment, that's how it --
l MR. GOSSICK:
Oh, I see.
10 MR. BARRY:
But it was wasn't.
I t was --
MINDS
'.O MR. GOSSICK:
We got the M RDS, the '78 amendment.
I.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Okay, so the 54 is really --
13 I MR. GOSSICK:
-- 51.
I4 CH AIM 1AN HENDRIE :
Should be 51.
That is the '78 15 number.
I0 MR. BARRY: Baseline. Then, in the supplement that I7 !
we are about to start now again, you would four to that, for fjfRDS 0
\\) I-Mcdonald for MPRDS.
That was in the amendment.
J CHAIM1AN HENDRIE:
Plus four for the amendment, if.
20 It goes.
21 l' MR. BARRY:
Yes l
2!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Plus 4 question mark.
If I may 23 { say so with the greatest af fection and regard for Bill and i
24 his trocos and books and so on, thit i s getting to be a rather AceJederal Reporters. Inc.
25 large enterprise.
We may have more management and program i
d
bw24 24 control information than we are capable of using to manage j;
2l and control the program.
3; I w uld be interested to know, for instance, how I
4l many( f the senior officers in the program of fices and in 5 h y ur offices, and so on, in fact, seriously use some of the 6
rainbow book products.
7 MR. GOSSICK: We have done such a survey with the 8,
very idea that if anybody says I don'tneed it, we sure as 9
heck aren't going to do it.
10 The result of this survey, the people supported the 11' books that he was doing.
In fact, they keep growing. We ' ve l
12!
got one now that they want to do in the whole safeguards l
13 i area, safeguards tracking book, among other things. So there i
14 !
is a limit somewhere, I agree with you, that we -- we may have i
15 Passed it.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: When we got the blue book i
17i instituted and automated and the system cranked up and running i
18; along, that was an enormous step fc ward in terms of getting i
19l a grip on the the license procedure and the scheduling and 1
20!
P asing of it in a management control tool. And I think, h
l-21 similarly, several of the other early implementations, several 3
22 of the other books in the sequence were similar substantial 23 imorovements as aids to management.
24 We now have a shop which is extremely ~ effective.
AceJederal Reporters, Inc.!
25l All you have got to do is call' up and mention a color -- puce.
I
bw25 l
25 t
l jl And they will devise a whole philosophy for the puce book, l
2l ana an office to hang it on, and have you back the first draf t 3
in a week.
And it's so darn easy to do, that I have a notion that people are now having these things implemented and waving-4 5
these books at one another, more because it's the f ad, than 6;
because it is useful.
And I have some doubt about whether one 7
wants to go on pouring manpower into this bottomless pit.
g MR. GOSSICK:
Well, in one case, just as an example, 9
one of our program office chiefs says, "I don' t need my book.
r 101 If I can name the color, I will give it away..'" Well, I might 11 as well, it's the Gold Book which applies to NMSS and these 12 license renewals, you know, for these facilities that go out 13 year af ter year af ter year, as well as the minor cases, the 14l material licenses.
I 15 I told Mcdonald, "Okay, knock it off.
Kill it."
16l And his people, the ads and the branch chiefs, as well as i
17 the division chief himself, appealed and came back and said, b
"He vou may not using it, Boss, but we do. And we need it,
}$18 19l and we wznt to keep it." So, we left it in.
20; This is not to say that --
l 21l CO>MISSIONER KENNEDY:
Let me say if there was i
22l any area in which such a device would be useful, that would 23l have been it.
I 24; MR. GOSSICK:
That would seem to me, right.
AceJedera! Reporters, Inc.
25; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That was the one in which l
O
i l
96 bw26 I,
we ' re talking about several thousands of licenses, which vary 2'
in --
3 hl MR. GOSSICK:
Now, I should point out that in this 1
4' 51 people, also, not just Bill's old shop, but we have added 5
to it and Hartfield & Company -that now dodg' evaluation of the t
6!
LERs. the whole LER system and the compiling of the abnormal 7
occurrence report on a quarterly basis, and that's a sizable 8'
effort.
I think it is the right place to do it.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Which is expanding now to 10!
include s tate reports --
11 i
MR. GOSSICK:
State reports. Agreement state incidents I2l or reports.
i 13l MR. DIRCKS. They also are being used in the tracking I4 } of research results coming out of the research program, which 1
15 the office has asked hint to participate in his research, (b b.
16' ina dihle) Smith, and track how it is being t
and Ed Case and f3,
'i I7d used in the process.
1 18 1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, let me tell you, I did a mino r l
19'I anount of preconsulting for. this organization on that aff air, t
20, and I have grave reservations over the utility and whether a
21 1 it's going to be a net benefit or a net cost to the shop.
22 'i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What area is this?
l 23 }i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The tracking of research results.
24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. i 25 j 42 yet?" And they say, "What the hell is tha t? "
"Well, you got il
l]
bw27 27 j
to write me a report on whether you have used Research Report i
2l 42.
He says, " Gee - "
You know.
l 3i There is an enormous amount of this which -- Well, I
a go ahead.
l l
5p COMMISSIONER GILIhSKY :
Bill's got, you know, a bunch l
6 of troops, and he 's very energetic and he gets things done,
7 and so there 's a tendency to call them into action.
8, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's an enterprise which is not i
9l without cost, and the cost is the level of harassment and effor :
I 10l that the line staff has to bear in order to supply the inputs i
11 to all of this.
12 And as the soltm of this sort of stuf f goes up, the i
13l incremental benefit versus the incremental cost very rapidly falls to zero and goes negative.
14j 15 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, I think we saw an example, and 16l I don't mean to crit.ique it too much though, the President 17 talked about how long it took to build a reactor in Japan 10, versus how long it takes to build one here, and I think we were seeing i
19 the birth pains of a new book, a yellow book on foreign l
201 reactors, which I think might have been stopped.
21 MR. GOSSICK:
They were prepared to send people out l$-
f0 22l to Japan do the work involved --
4 i
r
(,h 23 ;
PEDE RS[N :
His travel budget would have been up.
MR.
241 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, it would have been up.
.o %,..,o c my y 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
They would have to go with camel's l
n
28 bw28 l
l 1 H hair pens, ins tead of Flair --
2' Uell, I would' be inclined to take the view, if the --
i 3
i I would be inclined to set 55 slots in this group through the 4 !
end of
'79.
Now, we may, in fact, get those by the end of i
5 :l ' 78 out of the supplement.
61' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
55?
i 7
CHAIRMAN: HENDRIE:
Yes.
I 8L
]
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
51 and 4?
9]
L CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
51 in the current '78 10; authorization for people, four more potential ones in the '78 i
11 supplement, if it goes.
55, also, I point out, corresponds to 12 ll, his Level 2. And that seems to me to be a rather nice place i
13; to knock off, and not too hard to provide the two slots, and i
l 14; he may get them in ' 78 ins tead of
'79, and --
15' f
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Changing the 2nd derivative.
16l h
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, well you slowly -- The first lL~ ] w Llv A - ~ *4 Su stu d% * -
37
&a rw thing you have got to change 4-inaudible.. )-
And then in another 18 a p) l year or two well, maybe we'll get a grip on it.
19, 1
What would you think of that 20' L'oks fine to me.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
o i
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- a s a so r t o f a thing. And 22-what tha t means, Len is that -- I don ' t know -- I guess what 23-you put down then, is that his '78 estimated is 51. And his 24!
'79 Commission mark is 55.
And it has an asterisk on it, and sc.-rea rai R.porteri, inc..
25 the asterisk says, if the incremental four slots are provided 0
bw29 29 I
l 1,
in the ' 78 supplemental authorization, then there will be 2;
no incremental slots in
'79, and the the 55-slot limit is 3
the commission judgment on 1979.
4j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
But if you portray it that
(< L
/',;ccN 5! way, isn' t OMB then likely to just ike-it out of the '78
)
i 6;
supnlemental, possibly?
7 MR. BARRY:
No, because the purpose of the increase tdiSPDS o
"N 8l is th e.
NBRDS system, and what this says that if for some Q b)
I 9i reason the supplemental doesn't remain, or doesn't make it in I
10 time or something, we still want the four spaces in '79.
No, 11 I don't think they'll krock it out of the supplemental.
12l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
They've held the amendment so I
13l long, it's now become a supplemental, so they kidd of owe us i
14!
a bit on the thing.
15i Of fice of the Executive Legal Director.
I guess 16 there is something grumpy agreement to the EDO mark that 17; the '78 slots are 96 and the EDO mark for '79 is --
18 g COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
98, two more. I'm not sure why.
'i 19l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
- 98. Their request was all the 20!
way up to 107, but -- I don' t know.
0 21 ]
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I 'm no t sure why t% tm.
I 22l MR. GOSSICK:
Well, af ter his appeal, we went back 23' and reexamined his workload f actors in the -- It was in the 24!
area primarily related to this in-house administrative kind Ace-Federal Reporters loc. [
25l of legal work; isn ' t that right, Len?
bw30 I
30 i
1 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
2:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY. What is this work?
3' MR. GOSSICK:
Well, this is the contracts, FOIAs, 4l grievances, all of the, shall we say, " house legal work,"
n y.ag, 5:
that before had been done by our parent atency or at Germantown
()
'I for the old AEC.
We started out with one man, literally, the 6:
7l first year.
It's had to grow a little bit each year, and we're 8
still getting an increase in the kind of workload that's involved 9l here.
And it was primarily in recognition of a review of the
}
10l workload factors af ter the initial BRG marking. And I think BFG con-I 11 cured, did they r,ot, in the fact that they probably short-12 changed him, perhaps, a little bit in this area; is that right, Len?
I 13l MR. BARRY:
Yes.
14' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why are they increasing at i
15 all?
I would think the Eemring work would be going down, it 16l wouldn't be increasing at all.
1 17l MR. DIRCKS:
The argument there is that the hearings i
18 are entering that phase where the hearing intensity becomes 19j greater, and that the hearings are more contested than before.
1 20! That's the argument.
21 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, is that really borne Il 22p out?
Are we really taking a look at how many hearings are 23) coming up and --
24l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They're going down.
Ace Federal Reoorters, Inc. i 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would think that the number
I 31 I would be going down.
bw31 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Isn't ;his true?
2 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
3 COMMISSIONER GILInsgy, And the fact that we may go 4
to a real valley with practically --
l 5!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
'79. We're talking about 6;
'79.
Nobody's ordering their plans.
So I don' t know what i
7 these guys are going to be doing.
I find it o S that the 81 number is increasing at all.
i Are they picking up a substantial 9
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE, p
1 10j amount of business from the operating reactor or 2icense change 1
11l things.
i 12l MR. GOSSICK: There is some of that, I think. The i
13!
hearing workload is as -- of course, there has been a fair i
14l amount of additional work, maybe.
It's hard to predict what 15l will come out of it in the NMSS area, you know, connectel 1
16!
with the GESMO and the kind of activities over there.
l 17l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They had dedicated staf f on i
18l that before.
That's sti.1 there.
l 19l MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, Yes, they did.
I 20, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, and working on GESMO l
21' and all these things, which they are not doing anymore.
22; And about half the staf f is devoted to hearings.
23 h MR. GOSSICK:
45, 32 of which are attorneys.
1 24i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I mus t s ay, I find it odd Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.,
25:
the numbers they have.
9
f 32 I,
c bw32 jq MR. PEDERSpN :
Is the rate of contested hearings i
2 really going up?
It would seem to me it was pretty high in 3;
the past.
There wasn' t much room for it to go up.
ai MR. GOSSICK:
I agree with you -- I think --
[
MR. PEDE RS,0N :
The room for a delta there is
'l 5 c
not very great.
6;i I
7 MR. GOSSICK: Well, we 're not increasing in that 8;
area.
9l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
To the extent that there is i
10; one, it's likely to be the other way, as the benefits of 11 standardization take over.
J f
- 12 ;
MR. PEDERSpN :
Goes to the legislation, a possibility i-13l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I guess looking ahead, I jaj would expect rather a light load.
15' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That would be my impression, 16 as well.
17; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You want to trim to 97, or 1
- l 18 l do you want to give Howard a chance to come in and give him 19!
ten minutes t8 --
L 20l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We give them all -- if we 21 cut them below the level, they all have that opportunity.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I mean, I would be inclined 22; 23 ;,
to say 90 plus ten minutes now --
h 24;
( Laugh te r. )
Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc.
25l CHAIR %LN HENDRIE : Plus ten include for what?
a i
I ll
l 33 bw33 j
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For Howard.
2l (Laughter.)
i 3l j
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What is the number which would sl be here under the
'78, to revise
'78.
Si i
MR. GOSSICK:
The revised, 94. We are taking two 6'
away from him in the --
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, really?
8 i
MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
t 1
9l COSMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Ho, ho, ho.
10 MR. GOSSICK:
So this two would really put him back 11' to 9 6, if we didn' t do anything else in
'79.
12!'
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, why don ' t we ask Howard 13 to come around and --
14; MR. GOSSICK: Okay.
l 15l l
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, why don' t we decide i
16' now on some kind of a mark to which he can talk, because 17 otherwise, we 're going to get another long discussion which j
18!
I've alreadv read and heard.
19!
l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, why don't we indicate th'a t 20!
there's some inclination to stop at Level'2, which is 96.
21; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, it's hardly worth 22:
talking about 2, you could stop at --
23
- j (Inaudible voices.)
24!
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ]
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would have talked about the 25:
'78, which after all is four more than he now has.
i il
il bw3 4' '
q 34 I
MR. GOSSICK:
And Level 2 will now become 94.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Right.
7' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That would have been the level
~
daat I would have thought.
h 5l MR. GOSSICK: Well, give the op tion, I'm not sure 0
he would come down here for the two people, but if you cut 7'
l him, I think you ought to give him the opportunity.
l 0
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, yes, of course, but 9l I would not urge him to do so.
I would simply assure him daat 101' he has the opportunity, as they all do.
i 11l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
He would also understand I
12I that if we go further down (inaudible).
I 13:
MR. GOSSICK:
His reaction will depend in large l
14;l3 measure on what you do to OGC, to be very candid about it.
I 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
A little sibling rivalry l
16l there?
17 MR. GOSSICK:
If you want to call it that.
18!
(Simultaneous voices.)
,r 19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I thought I Lhad a very 20 clear impression of the functions of the two offices, and I 71 think I note the differences as being very clear and distinct
~
i in their f unctions,
i 23t' MR. BARRY: Are we talking about having him come 24; down and appealing 94?
Acaederal Reocreer.. Inc. ;
25l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That would be my view.
I l'
J
ll
!i 35 bw35 1;
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see is it -- Are we going i
2!
to be able to dxk that in on Thursday morning next?
We've 3j got research in there, but we 've got the morning blocked out 4
for this sort of work.
d f.o 1
S{CRETARYCHILK:
Yes, sir,
- 2) 5l s'
I 6j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
He gets two minutes per man 7
that he wishes to..reclama. Is that a f air --
ho bbtbh NO gi SEC RETARY :
If necessary, we will stop the clock.
l l
9 MR. GOSSICK:
All right, Mcdonald, do you want to 10, of fer him the same t
11l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Two minutes a man.
12 MR. GOSSICK:
Mcdonald, do you want to give him the 13 option.
I 14!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If they want to appeal the i
15l number, they ought to be told what the number we' re thinking 16l of at this point is, and they want to appeal the number, i
l 17j they're welcome to come down for a brief presentation.
18 ll COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, Howard I --
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We must underline the word 19l 20 and put it italics.
21 q COMMISSIONER GILINSTY:
Howard ought to particularly b
22l address the hearing workload.
i 23!
MR. GOSSICK:
Okay.
['g.v,n mt e, fide k [
6 24; fl0 ICE 4 In '79.
J Ace-Federal Recor[ers, Inc.l
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.u b u 25j b,,! ' 70IC&:
'I Thursday morning.
\\h7
36 bw36 l
MR. GOSSICK: But his number that he 's talking to 1
2l is 94. And that's the real ' 79 ceiling, or '79 number.
3l MR. BARRY:
That would be a level program of '78.
MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
4 I
5,[
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
International Programs.
What f
is the real '78 number?
6 MR. GOSSICK:
It's what you see there, 24.
7 8l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
24.
I'ts 20 now, going to 24 next t
9l year. They're talking about four more to 28.
l 10l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How is that allocated, I lif mean, is it between (inaudible.)
12 MR. DIRCKS:
Three in import-export.
Three out of l
13; the four; 1
I Y,
' 14 !
COMMISSIONER GILINSKf:
The 24?
l')
a-l MR. DIRCKS:
Oh, the 24?
15, I
5 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
My inclination was to fall a 16l 17 trifle short of the EDO, there by a slot or two, but what 18 do you think?
19l MR. DIRCKS:
The '79 request would be 16 in export-i, 20:
import licensing and international safeguafds.
11 in l
21l International cooperation, which is L'aFleur's operation, and 22l two in
'79.
l 23l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Seven'ty. what?
24 MR. DIRCKS:
'79.
Ace-Federal Reporters, InC. !
25:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : And what are they in '78?
O i
I 37 l
bw37 If CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And what are the two --
l 2l MR. DIRCKS: That's in the directory.
That's the 3
attache and the secretary.
In '78, it would be 12.
l 4l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I'm looking at some numbers i
5 which --
MR. DIRCKS:
That's not right. We reduced it by 6:
l one number.
It's 15.
7i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
What is it now?
8 !
MR..DIRCKS:
In
'78, 12 in export-import licensing, 9;
/
G ulN S.< -
nu 7
i 10 in international cooperation, and 2,4-attache and secretary.
y 10 1 That adds up to 24.
He asked, I guess, for 16 in export-import licensing, l
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Actually, why are they going 13:
I up?
14!
I MR. DIRCKS:
It's 15 in export-import licensing, j
i 11 in international cocoperation, which is an increase of 16l One.
I think that one increase, isn't that the intern --
I MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, there is an intern who A-s C/~e ca./ ctf c/a gwfb,,
(i-naudible. )
3 19 il i
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What is the reason for the 20l:
i I
increase in the export-import licensing end of it?
21!
MR. DIRCKS:
The reason was the forecasted workload, 22l l
the case work forecast increased.
23!
MR. GOSSICK:
We've had, as it's indicated this 24 ;,
AceJederal Reporters. Inc.
morning, both Mcdonald, jointly with some of Len's people, 25; i
l
38 doing a manpower survey, if you will, of that activity, and 3
bw38 also, I had Sully -Ri-ordan-in Administration do kind of a 2
separate effort on how they do the work, as far as the clerical 3
to professional exercise, and the degree to which they were 4
u ing w rd processing, and that sort of thing.
5; l
6l Now, there's been a lot of analysis made of this
- F (kf.mov thing, and I guess in--dependi-ng-on the degree to which you pc 7
t >
believe it, they can justify the additional manpower, as they g
have tracked out the routine versus the minor, the complex 9
m jor cases and racked up man-hours, and that sort of thing.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
This is what I am interested jj in.
And, in fact, these numbers are numbers derived out of 12 13 manpower surveys, studies of actual workload -- working --
(Inaudible voices. )
ja i
MR. BARRY:
Verified.
15 q COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Well, if that's the 16 case, if' in fact, these numbers derived from a series of j7 detailed examinations of the workload by outsiders, that 18 would be, in itself, a precedent-setting event.
39 MR. GOSSICK:
That is exactly the case. We kept 20l getting cries from Jim and the guys up there about "I need 21 22l m re help."
And somehow I couldn't get a coherent, you know, i
picture of why.
And so we sent in the outside troops to go 23l 24 l in and take a hard look at it.
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Mcdonald and also the 25
!!a
bw39 39 l
1 Controller?
2l MR. GOSSICK:
Yes --
3i MR. DIRCKS:
Mcdonald and (inaudible) Sullivan.
4!
MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, and Sullivan.
5l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I 'think there is somewhere i
where this -- We've seen in the past week where this sort of 6
7;lIrigorous, examination of the need to take --
t 8 !
(Simulataneous voices)
?
9 ;l MR. BARRY:
Well, I'll tell you another thing we did,
,b )
l
'T' 10l fx(, ghey simply didn' t have quantification of their workload l
11f when they first came into us.
I called that to their attention 12!
and they did a tremendous job, and they quantified their l
13!
workload, as well as I've seen done around ehre.
I 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Are you satisfied with the 15 quantification?
16f MR. BARRY :
Yes, sir.
i 17l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would say this, also, i
18 that there is potential for unpleasantness stemming from i
19l inadequate work here is very, very --
20:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, yes.
In fact, we have 21l one in hand.
22f MR. GOSSICK: Did you see Stone's TWX?
\\
Lqaw J m *
(-
23j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Couldn ' tg (inaudiole. )
Superb t-t
< l s, L
24!
piece of writing.
Ace-Federal Reper*ers, Inc. ;
25!
MR. BARRY:
My manpower people have their i
i
bw40 40 jf quantification, and they said it is very marginal.
CHAIRMAN ~HENDRIE:
Okay. Should we leave it at -- the 2
Program Support dollars seem reasonable, shall we leave it at 3:
i I
28 and the suggested dollars.
The only thing I had an 4
inclination there was to wonder whether to lop a slot or two 5;
ut of it, but I think your experience with the operation is 6
much more valuable guidance.
7 i
i hy don' t we let it stand?
8 9l CO5B1ISSIONER KENNEDY : I think we should let it stand.
l 10f CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right.
S tate?
jj Now, what is the real '78 number in state?
MR. GOSSICK:
That's the same, I believe.
12:
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
These guys --
13 COFD1ISSIONER GILINSKY :
What's all this program ja, l
I i
support? Where does that go?
I don' t know where that goes.
15 I
MR. DIRCKS :
Well, some of that is contributions to 16 l!
j7l running this school out in Michigan.
MR. GOSSICK:
Emergency planning.
18 19l MR. DIRCKS:
Emergency preparedness school --
l 20!
MR. GOSSICK:
Planning.
- l MR. DIRCKS
Planning school.
A good chunk of that 21, i
22j goes to that.
\\
23 h COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
A big chunk?
O
- t s
T 24]
MR. PEDERSON :
They support several conferences a 4eJeoeral ecoor[ers, inc. d year, siting conference, that sort of thing.
25f 4
O 41
?
I b w41 MR. GOSSICK:
Well, they are the devices you heard
)
about this morning from Doc Collins, a couple hundred 2
3-thousand, I guess.
i{1 7p 4:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I thought it was,100,000.
i
//
J
/
h MR. GOSSICK:,100,000.
5
'. 1 )
[
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
The amount wasn' t concerning i
I me, it wa.s the principle.
I wasn' t exactly sure whether we 7l 8:
should be involved in it.
9 MR. BARRY:
The amount is 585,000 of the 1.1 million,
10 for emergency response training programs.
i I
11, COMMISSIONER GKLINSKY: What is the rest of that?
12 MR. BARRY : Well, let's see.
The devices that he i
13 was talking about morning, they run about 69,000.
The 4
'N 14 Radioact (phonetic) monitoring.
I'm sorry. That's 100,000.
I
\\
That's$
l 100,000.
15l MR. GOSSICK:
I 161 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
And he says --
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I didn't feel very strongly 18 about the dollars.
The states -- you often find -- I 19l remember from the ACRS days - You of ten found states in which o
I 20-you had offices that were willing and even anxious to be 21l very cooperative, but absolutely strapped for a couple of bucks il 22 ll so that if there were some little things which you 6ould help 5
Il 23 with here and there -- on budgets, 'you got a big dividend in 24; coope ra tion.
Ace-Federal Repor+ers. Inc. '
25!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
As I mentioned this morning, i
l i
bw42 1
42 1
that was before revenue-sharing in which billions of dollars 2\\
j are being pushed back to the states.
31 If we want to get involved in the revenue-sharing 4l l
program, I think that's fine, but I think we ought to realize 5;
I that's what's involved here.
I 6l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is this money actually going 7
to the st'ates, or is it money for studies or what?
8!
MR. BARRY:
I'll have to get you a line and break-9 i
out-on it.
We had it once, but --
10
^^"
h>
MR. GOSSICK: Part of this has to do with the -(-i-naud2.ble-).
g
>j 11.
s We were supposed to get assistance, or states were supposed 12!
to be funded through our-- well, we were the lead agency on l
13!
l this emergency planning, and people like the FDAA and oh, 14l i
half a dozen other agencies were supposed to kick in part of l
15' i
this cost of train 1ng.
In every case they have, you know, 16i chickened out on us, and absolutely refused to provide any 17 funding.
18l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: So we have the whole package.
19i MR. GOSSICK: As the lead agent, we' b stuck with it, 20!
f sh i
which is a total of 585,000, as I understand it, to do the j
a f
21 job.
s (5-) 22 f
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
It says, of the 585,000,it A
J 23 is in the lowest priority category.
24 MR. GOSSICK: That's in the funding Level 4, which Ace-Feocral Repor+ers, Inc.
25 i
is included --
li h
43 bw43 l i COMMISSION ER GILINSKY:
Is the lowest priority.
2 MR. GOSSICK:
Yep.
D 3:
5 jy COMMISSIONER GpLINSKY :
I wonder what's happened J
to any of those other --
d St CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think they figured that since 6'
OMB had indicated they preferred us to go ahead and take the 7li j
management and fund it, that that seemed to be an assured 8 j package, so that the thing to do is to put it up in the top, 9l! to protect the fragile end of the structure.
10 'll COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well,,then, that is a loss of money'.
11 h
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Creative budgeting.
H 12 L COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You' ve gone ahead, Lee, and i
13i included the 585.
i 14+
MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, I have, but what I'm a little 15 j
concerned about, though, is the explanation for the-rest-of._.
l ',hc m
16 l.the rest of the one four one five.
I think we better take 17 I another look at that.
I 18' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Vour level -- the EDO 's l
19l mark was 1170.
20 !
MB. GOSSICK:
Right.
I 21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Half of it is that 5 8 5.
22' MR. GOSSICK:
That's exactly right.
The res t of 23 it, the dif ference between the --
24; 9'
Ace Federni Reporters, Inc.,
25!
could not find what package Level 1 was supposed to do.
n i
!I bw44 44 l
ll j)
MR. GOSSICK:
Well, that's right.
I was just 2l 1
king at that, and I can't see any explanation for the 539 --
3=
I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Except for the 100,000 --
4 MR. GOSSICK:
-- I mean the 49 8,000 that's --
5 6;
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: There's $100,000..
I 7
MR. COSSICK:
Yes, but they show 498 all tocether f
8 i in packace 1.
I can' t account for the rest of it.
9j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
i 10l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Why don' t we plan to cet a little 11 better reading on this --
12[
MR. GOSSICK:
All right.
I
~
13:
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: -- at an early time?
I don' t i
know whether this will fit in with Wednesday morning or ja:
l 15l Thursday morning, Len, but one or the other.
Okay?
16 MR. BARRY: Well, if we have made a mistake, it 17l might not even be a requirement kind of thing, if --
18 ;!
(Simultaneous voices.)
d 19, COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Exactly twice, by the --
l 20l MR. GOSSICK: Yes.
- l 21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
There is S100,000 also 22i mentioned in there with those others --
23:
MR. GOSSICK:
That's right. What I'd like to do is 24; go back and look at it real hard, and if there's a simple Ace Federal Reporters. inc. l 25; e xp lana tio n, sho6t it down here to vou.
And if there is a
I j
45 l
I bw45 i
li real question of defending the rest of it, then maybe we better i
i..d 7}h 2 {somebodydownhere to speak to it.
3!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
All right.
Now what about the 4
people?
The people are going from 20 now to 24 in '78, 29 in ~
i 5l
'79, which is pretty good progression.
I 6l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
24 is a real
'78 number?
i 7'
MR. GOSSICK: Well, their actual on-board strength 8i right now is probably almost 24 people. We've had overages in I
9 !
there that I've assigned people from the old Office of Special l
10!
Studies, you know, lef t over from the Energy Center Study, I
Ilf and Mr. Jaske, who is one his principal guys of that kind.
I 12!
We don't propose to change his real
'78. number, do 13 ! we?
l 14!
MR. BARRY:
No. Stavs the same.
i 15!
MR. GOSSICK:
So it will be 24.
16; MR. BARRY:
We did not reduce any in the exercise.
i 17l MR. GOSSICK:
All right.
And the BRG raised that i
18i to 25 in the '79 request.
I think it was my idea th a t, hey, I
i 19i we have had to borrow these spaces from elsewhere to man the i
20j pilot run on the regionalization thing Assuming that we are l
21' coing to put a state liaison guy in each regional office, l!
22 I let's go ahead and cluc in the spaces for it.
23-COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If you have to borrow those a
24; spaces from other people to get those --
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. !
25!
MR. GOSSICK:
They may not go here.
They may not go I
i
bw46 46 i
in '79.
j r
l' 2;
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
I realize that.
But you've 1
3:
got them.
MR. GOSSICK:
Oh, ves --
4j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: You've taken the five spaces 5
6:
from someplace else, so they' re in the 24.
7 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
I've actually.only taken two 8;
so far, from Region 1 and Region 5, or we will be doing th at.
9 But, that's right, we --
10!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
All you're doing is making l
11l the books even.
12l MR. GOSSICK :
That's right.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : I would be inclined to agree l
ja with that.
I 15; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right good.
16l 29, it stands. And we will find out about the --
i 17 MR. GOSSICK:
-- program support.
MR. BARRY:
I'll have a program support list for you 18 l 19 tomorrow.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
You can, if you like, but I won' t 21 look at it tomorrow.
If you had it ready for Wednesday, I wouldn ' t be able to tell the dif ference be tween tomorrow and 22j 23 Wednesday.
24 j MR. BARRY:
Very good.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Mc. j 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Offer some guidance. It sry be useful.
- l 47 l
l bw47 j.
All right, let's see.
If I may summarize, we now 2:
have an EDO mark accepted in this group of things for the 3
EDO's office, Controller's Office, Planning and Analysis, 4;
Equal Opportunity Employment.
The first three offices added i
5l no slots. Equal Opportunity added one.
6:
We have proposed to hold Mcdonald's shop at 55 through 7l the end of
'79, and whether it 's a '79 increment or a '78 I
81 increment remains to be seen.
He can come and holler, if he 9j feels he would like to come and holler.
The time to be next 10j Thursday morning.
11 The dollars, I believe, in there seem to be okay.
1 12 Shapar's shop, tentatively, the working mark is 94 l
13 slots through the end of
'79.
Howard to come and present 14:
counterarguments, if he wishes.
Okay.
l For those two offices, then, if the amendment goes 15 i
16 ] through, there would be no '79 slot increment.
i 17 Our international programs, plus four slots in '79 1
18 and the dollars indicated in the EDO mark. State programs from 19; pits 5 slots, and the dollars to be considered when Len gets 201 a rundown on it, okay?
I' 21, If the amendment goes in
'78, so that Mcdonald's l
22 l four slots from 51 to 55 are part of the '78 package, that f
23 ll would leave this group of officers at plus 10 slots in '79.
24; Since they have a total of approximately 300 authorized in Ace-Federal Depor*ers, Inc. j 25 the '78 budget, this works out to --
a
bw48 l
48 CO:01ISSIONER KENNEDY:
Three percent?
j CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
It's at least less than 2,
i the dollar rate of inflation --
3 (Laughter.)
4:
I well, if it were more, I guess I'd feel bad, I don't 3
know.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
These are the office for 7
8l the most part, except for Howard's, that essentially started i
9j from scratch.
They're still playing catch up.
i International Prwraas had three or four people.
State 10 programs had six or seven.
jj 12j CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
And that's where nine of the 13l ten are coming, so --
I COND1ISSIONER KENNEDY : That's exactly right.
jal 15l CHAIR:GN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Yes.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Now we should look to those 16 offices, it seems to me,,p<[ stabilizing.
j7 jg' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We now ought to proceed to the j9j Commission offices.
20 Okay.
Commission offices--
1 I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
They were being held at 211 L*V 1 1*
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Boy, the Office of the 23; Commissioners, look at them.
24 ]
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
" hey're held at Level 1.
25l 1
s
bw49 49 d
CHAIRMA'I HENDRIE:
Level 1.
2 i
Are we going to end up there, does anybody know?
3 Len, are you keeping track there?
4' Sam, are you keeping track of how many people we've 5n got, and so on?
/ l ha 6:
_SEGRE"rAR17HILK :
No, not really, I can't tell you, I)4 7
7 l
offhand.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I guess it is a place we ought 9
to -- what do you think?
Continue to shoot for 30 under this 10 heading?
We may or may not end up there.
For instance, 11' you have interns, people detailed temporarily --
1 12; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
They don't count.
i 13; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- and they count against the 14 parent organization --
15.
Il COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
No, they don ' t count there l'
16j either.
17i CHAIRMA'1 HENDRIE :
What?
18; d
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They don' t count there either.
19 1 l
MR. BARRY:
We've got to be careful there. When we 20i j
hire an intern now, we really ought to count him some place.
21 j
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
No, these are interns tha t i,
22 l
are f rom other of fices.
23-MR. BARRY:
Oh, all right.
-- on loan.
q 24 Ace-Federal Repor+ers, Inc. "
(SimultaneouG Voices.)
25 MR. BARRY:
- Okay, il 1
lI 51 bwS1
[
I he said 30, 31, 32.
2 (Laughter.)
3 And the program support travel moneys, I guess, are 4!
good.
They seem modes t enouga.
I am surprised the outfit 5
could travel on that.
6 The Secretary's oJfice seems -- Now, let's see, we 1
7 j
don't have EDO marks on these things.
Boy, now what are we 8'
going to do?
Now we are going to have to face the grim facts l
9 of life.
The Secretary wants two people.
Oh, no, he doesn't.
i 10 !
He 's got -- is his ' 7 8 number 38?
i 11i l
MR. BARRY: Certainly.
i 12l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
So he jus t want3 to stay level.
13' l
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes. And he would like to hang r
14:h in there,
d 15 h MR. BARRY:
Hang in there.
1 16 li CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I can' t object to th a t, can you?
I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Neither can I.
18-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
AC RS, our friends downstairs, are 19 !
at 37 on staff.
39 -- Is that their real '78 level?
20,
[
MR. GOSSICK:
No, it would be 37.
I'm sorry, No, 21 a!
>l 37 would be their real --
h 22 1l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I was persuaded by the i
23'!
eloquence of your argument this morning, Mr. Chairman, --
24 b
9 Y
Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc.
25
them in this exercise.
l
50 1
s I
i bw50 h.uu u t' I!
-COMMISS IONE R-KENNEDY : Well, you've got one that is I
i 2
going back to Arizona.
3 ]!
p'd "^g m.
~ h + V'b 'f VOICE:
Well, that's a summer intern.
They don't d
4 count him at all.
5' MR. BARRY:
We ' ve go tten to the point where I don' t 6
think we can afford any more to say when we hire interns, we 7!
don't count them, because we don ' t have to. We don ' t have to 8'
count them for another year, except you' re always putting them p emw l
s(j y) 9; on the count, that next year you,'re going to have enough 10 spaces to hire the guy.
11 And I think when we hire an intern today, he's like 12' a second lieutenant in the service.
He's, you know, a junior 13' guy, and he doesn't know a lot, but eventually you have got to 14'!
put him in there, l
15 i
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, le t's see --
16l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: These are commissioners,
1 I7I plus immediate staff; right?
18 MR. GOSSICK: Let me suggest, too, you know, not to 19l lose any sleep over it, if the number turns out 32, 34 or 35, 20i it will be taken care of.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It might go the other i
22 hq direction.
23 i
!i MR. GOSSICK:
If it goes the other way, we can,I 24 dh am sure, find good use to put the people to.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I notice he didn' t say 30, 40, 50; l
bwS2 52 Il CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So their ' 78 number is 37, 2
MR. GOSSICK:
R i.gh t.
3 MR. BARRY:
That was an eloquent argument this I
4l' morning, but I would really like to reaffirm, you notice that 5) it really was a discussion between the Secretary and myself.
6 I didn't say much.
i 7;
l I would like to just point out a few things to you, 8'
though. If you look at this sheet -- If you go down to 9 !
Anita Hooks in the first group, if you were to add that total, 10 i it would come to 24 people. And then from there on, to the total t
li j of the second page, they Would total 18 people.
121 Now, the second half of that sheet, are really 13 j your engineers.
That's your -- starting with (inaudible) i 14 that's your engineers.
That's your engineering staff.
There 15 l are 18 people.
18 positions.
i 161 l
There are six secretaries and 12 professionals.
17 'l And that is a reasonable relationship of secretaries l
to il 18 l professionals.
That is one for two.
That is better than 19; i
most of the staf f has in NRC.
I 20!
But that is the hard core.
That's the casework i
21; people.
22l Now, all the 24 above are overhead.
And if you look 23 d d there, in addition to the Executive Director and the o w n 24 Assistant Executive Director, vou find an awful lot of ace.Fecerol Reporters, Inc. ]
25 administrative assistants for something.
An awful lot. And 4
l.:
53 bwS3 Il even if you take the four temporaries out, we're still talking 2
20 people, who are of a clerical nature. And, as an example, h
3tt(b%
7} c}
3l the third person there,4Kennt,7he's kind of the budget guy i
4' fo r AC RS.
That's his prime function.
I've got eight budget Si examiners for the entire NRC.
6 Down below there, there is another gal that --
t 7l CHAIRMAIN HENDRIE:
Yes, back in the great and l
8l glorious days of history, I guess the ACRS used to get a lot 9l of support from the the Secretariat, because there was Must Fralev, 10 or four or five secretaries, maybe a couple of clerks ~and i
Il i four or five staff enaineers.
I2 And I auess what has happened, to some extant, is 1
i 13:
that a lot of the administrative backup 'dtat they drew from I
I4; the Secretariat in those days has now moved over to their own i
15; shop.
Do you feel that --
t n
lK.
[7 10;i SJpCRETARY CHILK:
e I really don't know.
I haven't O/
I7 been with the organization that long.
We still provide them 18 with services.
We still handle their contracts for transcribing I9l services, space, you know, these kinds of things.
But they 20 do have their own separate --
l 21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
But the Secretariat used to do il 22!
all of the financial work for them.
23:
MR. HOYLE:
Probably up to 1970 or around th 24 Me Federal Reporters. Inc. y I think thrt's when the staff started growing.
25:
AIRMAN HENDRIE:
It must have been past that.
4 54 bwS4 l
I I I Because I didn't leave the Committee until early ' 72, and their 21 staff was still rather modest.
31 MR. HOYLE:
I don' t recall when they started having 4
i up to 100 co:.sultants.
There's a lot of paperwork with the i
5' consultants then.
Did you have that many?
6!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
But you know, Fraley and 7
his crowd had to do an initial preparation on the paperwork, 8 !
I but that all flowed into the Secretariat for sort of the r
9l grinding of the machinery that is necessary on those 10 people.
Ili l
MR. HOYLE:
Mr. McCool had about a four-man 12l adminis trative unit down there to do paperwork, McKinney was
+
13!
i then the head of it.
We only have one person now doing that 14 yli kind of thing for the Secretariat in the Commission of fices.
15 '
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Well, I'm sure these people 16 find things to do with their time, and the question is, if 17l there were fewer of them would things -- then some things 18!
wouldn't get done.
Are those things that are important to 19 get done, or are those things that it might nice, but are 20!
p not necessary.
You know, I am unconvinced, as I said at some 21' l
length this morning that continued pell-mell growth of the 22lii Committee staf f is healthy for the Committee itself.
23 I am afraid they are already getting to the point 24 Ac,Jederai Reporters. inc. j where the staff is on the verge of overwhelming them, if it 25l hasn't already captured them.
4 hl l
nlI
n I
- bwS5, 55 I
And one of the great things about the Committee in l
2' he old days, was that there were few enough staf f so that it 3li was one of the few organizations around where, you know, the i
4l Committee or chief or whatever, you know, commanded the 5
s itua tion.
His poor staff had to run like hell to just see 1
i 6!
his dust going around the corner, or their dust going around 7
the corner.
8; You get a big staff and the first thing you know, 9
they have overwhelmed you.
i 10 1 So I am not very sympathetic to these great charges I
11; forward in manpower. Fur thermore, I think it is absolutely i
12 l clear-cut that the fellowship program in some form or other i
13 will come in, and they will be authorized for an additional i
14 !
15-odd fellowship positions. And if they will choose them with a
15 0 some care and avoid giving fellowships to some guy who is ll 16 ;'
going to stay at the University of Arizona and just promise 17 to put in two days a week, who you insist on the guy moving i
18' in and living here with the Committee business, I really think I
19l they will get enormous -- you know, that is a very large and i
20 d1 valuable manpower increment.
l-21' If they fritter it away by tucking these guys into 22 the corner to work on odd problems that nobody would have l
23!
bothered to work on, you know, if these freebies hadn't 24!
ke-Fecerol Repo, ters, Inc. l shown up, I don' t know that I regard that as the thrust on 25 th e --
1 l
]
f 56 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Let me point out, they're bwS6 2!
not going to be freebies, in any event.
Just because they're il 3
au thori zed.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
They're not freebies in a dollar.
5' sense, Dick, nor indeed, or in a --
1 6:
(Simultaneous voices.)
I 7
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- or in a space sense --
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
They're not.
l 9;
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- but you notice that the 10 Committee is regarding them as freebies.
11!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
l 12I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
They are going to do all the 13l things they were going to do anyway, and then have these guys 14 f in addition to play games out in the corner with other problems i
15 l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We're going to pay for them.
16i Both in terms of slots and dollars.
17!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Has anybody taken a look at 18 the administrative operation of all these people (inaudible)?
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Would you like to have that done?
20:
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
(Inaudible), if it isn' t i
21 regarded as harassment.
22l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Probably will be, that's always 23' the problems you have an independent --
24!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, can't you the next time, Ace Federal Repovers. Inc.]
25; you know, go in and sit down with the Chairman and say, " Hey --
57 jf bw57 j
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Yes, I think that --
I 2
i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It would be a good time to
!3' do that.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I suspect that unique among 1
S i recent commissioners, and maybe future commissioners, I am 6'
able to sit down with the Committee or its chairman or.iith 7
Ray himself, and speak fairly harshly about things that I 8<
don't perceive as beneficial to them. You know, I am afraid i
f 9l if people who haven' t been on the Committee do it, why, you I
10!
know, boy, you know, they're trying to badger us, to limit 11' f
our effectiveness, the inevitable sort of response to that.
12i And I think the way to start that kind of examination 13 would be for me to meet with the Chairman or the Vice Chairman 14' privately and say, "Look, you know we've bounced your staff
%J,/eu Butyou've-hct 15' ot about l
request and that's hurt Ray's feeling.
16l j
administrative staff to run, you know, the Bethesda operation 17 il of the Agency."
18 lI You know, I can remember i~t is the Chairman of the 19!
Committee who nominally reviews and approved the staf fing and, 20 you know, the budget requests.
There is a new chairman every 21 i year, and what he knows about the Agency processes here is 221 zilch.
You know, you are just absolutely helpless in the 23 ij the hands of your Executive Director.
And so you just shrug
.I 24 l' ke-Feoeral Reporters, Inc. ] and say, "Well, okuy, good old Ray, if that's what he thinks 25 d he needs, we better give it him.
i 58 bw58 1'
My own inclination here would be to put them at 2!r somewhere between Level 2 and Level 3 in terms of these 3
numbers, recognizing that over and above this, there are 15 4
fellows wandering around in the --
5:
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Why would you even go that i
6 far?
Why does the s taf f need to increase?
The number of 7
cases is not going to -- we are talking about Fiscal
'79. I 8!
don' t really see the cases up, and they are going to have 9'
these 15 fellows floating around. I suppose you wouldn't 10j accept anything under say at Level 2, which is 41 (inaudible.)
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
Well, that wouldj' not Tp 4%t i
12l unreasonable place to stop.
Again, my intmit here is to change i
13l the sign of the second derivative rather than reverse t'.e 14!
whole process. And that would give them a ten percent staff 15 increment over the
'7 8 level, which isn' t bad.
It allows 16!
them a few slots, in case they had, you know, certain things i
17j they already had very clearly in mind they wanted to do.
l 18; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You are going to what?
19; 42 or 43?
20l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
41.
That would be Level 2s, 21 their Level 2s.
MR. BARRY:
Well, their Level 2, by definition, 22 23 really should be what it is in
'78.
In '78 it was 39.
It is 24 now 37.
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Their real '78 number is 37?
l I.
59 bV59 l
l MR. BARRY:
37.
j, l
2l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, how did the blasted sheet 1
get made up then?
Because it wasn' t 39, you know, the Level 2 3
4l is 41.
That is, the sheet was wrong to star t with, and it's Si still wrong, after you cut two off for '78; right?
MR. BARRY:
That's right.
They included temporaries 6
in there.
There are four temporaries, if you notice on their 7
t w hlbb - fa edr#
P',
8l sheet here under the'k (i nnnaible) there's four temporaries.
,O fe
i
/
They included four temporaries in there.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
In which number?
10 jjl MR. BARRY :
In the current level, 41.
i There were 33 plus 8, or is that 42?
Oh, it's 41, 12l i
13' yes.
They included their temporary help in their, and they jaj weren't supposed to.
They simply didn't put the right number in there.
15, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I see.
They mean their Level 2 j$
to be --
17 jg' MR. BARRY:
37.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
So Le rel 2 should read 4, and 19 i
20 Level 3 that gives four more that shouldn' t appear in there i
21l at all.
True?
MR. BARRY:
Right.
Their cumulative total on Level 22 23l 2 should be 37.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY : We are also going to 24 Ace-Federcl Reporters, Inc.!
25j (inaudible) with the legislation.
h
60
' bw6 0-jj MR. BARRY:
Let me mention, you notice there was 2!
a dif ference bebren our judgment and theirs of about 11.
Let me mention to you what the difference is in tems o f how they 3
I 4l would apply the increase of 11.
l 5(
Four would be to convert the four temporaries, 6l as you see on the sheet before you.
There's a keypunch l
7 operator,. a document control file clerk, clerk-typing, and 8l document control file clerk, there are two of them.
Four. Well, 9,
that's, of course, the same type of situation we have had i
10 in Administration, about 187 people that we'd like to convert 11 from temporary to permanent.
It's the same philosophy.
That 12 is four of the spaces.
13 Then 2 1/2 more spaces would be for two clerks tha t 14 Ray mentioned this morning to adn'inister the 15 fellows. And 15 half a man-year --
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Cross those out, I can' t buy 17 that.
18 MR. BARRY:
Then 1 1/2 man-years for this Udall 19j report, it is estimated it will take to do that safety report 20 by the first of December each year.
And he estimates he needs i
21 1.5 engineers to do that report.
22 And then one man-year, you know, they have s tarted t
23 [ doing safety reviews of environmental reports.
The letter to P
i 24 you, Lee, that he sent.
ke-Federal Reporters, Inc. i 25 !
MR. DIRCKS :
He mentioned that today.
I I
bw61 61 1
MR. BARRY:
Yes, he mentioned that today.
He's i
2l been doing it, but he wants a man here to do tha'. in '79.
3!
And then the last 1 1/2 years just for what they call 4
staff development. In other words, professional training, and '
5:
so on.
They equate that with --
6 So that ' s the dif ference of 11 between the --
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What happens if legislation 8
is passed which makes ACRS review optional?
i 1
9' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
My guess is it won't change their 10 workload much until we come to a time, if we ever do, when i
11!
there is a great rush of ordering again and the large number 12 then of plants that had
-- which the NSSS and balance-of-13 plant is -- the NSSS is the same as others tha t they review, i
14; the balance-of-plant is very similar to sites or good sites 15 or good si tes without significant problems.
i i
16 At the present level of stuff coming through the 17' pipeline and with the varic' ility and so on, which happens I
18 when you get small numbers, I think they will want to keep 19 reviewing. And I think they ought to keep reviewing, even if I.
20!
they want to back off very much, we ought to be cautious about i
21 letting them, because this committee works best when it's, you 22 know, it's got head and shoulders right into the grindstone.
23l You give the time -- Give it a clear year to go il 24f off in the corner and think great thoughts about profound Ace Federal Repor*ers. Inc. j 25i t
bw62 62 jl; matters --
2; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It will do its work in the last i
3l month.
4!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
And you'll get garbage.
About 5
the same characteristics as all the other 15-person groups 6
that I know.
7 Well, I still,. let's see.
There are 37 now.
There 8,
are 37 in the '78 budget.
The amendment doesn't change it.
9 The supplemental doesn't change it.
10 MR. BARRY: It does not.
l 11 !!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think for goodwill purposes, 12j I'd still sugges t 41, as a mark for
'79.
That takes them up l
13!
to -- If they will agree with you about the Level 1, 2,
and 3 things i
14i that takes you up to about Level 3 1/4 which is -- boy, that's 15 treating them pretty good.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Boy, I say.
17l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
We would always mark out the i
18 rest of the agencies hovering back around Level 2.1.
t 19:
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Do they really need that; do l
20!
you think?
We're starting from 37 -- We're starting from a i
211 point of 37; is that right?
h 22 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
I 23 h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I see something here which N
24 q says 33, 23, 4 -- goes up to 63.
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25;l MR. DIRCKS:
Well, I think the point that Len
bw63 63 mentioned about the conversion attempts to get an increase to j
convert temporaries they have, is sort of not equal justice, 2j 3j when we are not allowing, in a very real sense, converting 4l of temporaries on a large order by the rest of the people.
I f
({ 3, S
CHAIRMAN H/(NDRIE :
It's quite clear.
MR. GOSSICK:
Admin's got quite a bunch of them that 6
7 they'd like to have -- prefer to have permanent.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Indeed, it would seem to me 8
9; that the ICRS could make great use of temporaries.
I don' t know, i
f 10l Mr. Chairman, you participated, but it seems to me that when 11, the Committee comes into town, the amount of administrative
?
IU g 12 l work that going on down there, the amount of typing and all the 4
else that has to be done, mu'st go on, while the Committee 's 13 ja;
- around, i
i 15l Just because there are more people to give them 16 something to do.
t 17l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You mean, par t-time 1
l 18j employees?
19L COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Sure.
L CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I expect that argument --
20l 21' The bulk of the -- You know, there is the peak in there --
22!
quick draft (?) generated during the meeting, and so on.
0
-- The 23 q But the bulk of that work goes on across the month b
24 q subcommittees -- There is such a solid array of subcommittees Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc. P 25!
that generate great batches of minutes and staff engineer n
b
i i
64 bw64 l
l 1I reports sort of coming pretty well spaced along the month, i
2' and I think that would turn out to be a sufficiently large 3l fraction of the paperwork, so that the meeting perturbations are, you know, are like this on a large base, rather this kind '
5 i
of a thing.
So --
1 6!'
MR. GOSSICK:
I guess if you are going to increase 7
them four', I would make it understood that was to convert 8
l temporaries, as a suggestion.
I 9
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
All right. That's reasonable, in 10 any event, on the basis that we have got zillions of 11, temporaries all over, including a number whose --
i 12' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Will their authorization 13 !
of temporaries continue?
14 i
MR. GOSSICK:
I think that we would want to l
reexamine them.
I 16l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You want to reclaim them?
17!
j (Simultaneous voices.)
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
One you can't convert them, 19l and eao, you can't keep them.
i 20i (Laughter.)
1 91l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That was what I'm getting
~
- 22l, at.
I 23!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I don't want to stall out here.
24!
O
'w g
-- Do you want to hang gdmly at 37, or trim Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc..
25' ll back the increment a little bit -- 41 sounds excessive? 40?
I f
1 ll
i 6
bw65 65 1
i.
39?
What am I bid?
I 2i (Laughter.)
3 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
I don't know.
I'll go with i
4' l
whatever your judgment is.
Si i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's keep it around 6
40.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
40 sounds -- 40 is an even Level j
3, if they will agree to this array of 33, 4,
3, and 4 for i
9 levels, okay.
We want to talk to Fraley to point out that's 10!
I the way it should have been.
I 11l MR. BARRY:
We ought to, if you are going to increase 12' him three, I guess we really ought to tell him where, because, 13.
l one, he could convert, but we just said that's not a good 14!'
thing to do.
15l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, I think we ought to add 16!
the admonition that we don't think he should convert.
We got i
17i a lot of temporaries, and converting these ought to be con-2 18' the 150 or whatever it %'twu thers.
,]~ (
j sidered in the same context as 19l ry ~ _
n MR. BARRY:
I guess Q. hat;what I'm saying is f he r
I 20 gets three, to me, they really ought to be engineers.
21:
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
i 22 l
MR. BARRY:
Otherwise, you are going to have two 23!
more clerks to administer 15 people, who we may not even get.
24i COMMISSIC NER GILINSKY :
What does that mean to your 4e Federal Reporters, Inc. ;
25 admonition about --
f l
l
i 66 l
1 bw66 i
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, that gets to Joe's concern 2';
about the nature of this thing.
3' MR. BARRY:
In my judgment, he 's got enough
- l administrative help to take on a lot more engineers without i
5 hiring another single clerk.
0l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
At Level 3, the ACRS is requesting I
7I that number if inconsistent.
It shouldn' t be five; it is three 1
8 j additional permanent personnel to be utilized to accommodate l
9 j
the special reporting requirements of Congress and other 10l federal agencies to accommodate special projects and review 0
l noncommercial regs. p (
l 12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : They consider that reporting i
13i requirement to Congress as a fairly low order of priority.
14' ll I'm amused at that.
(Simultaneous voices and laughter.)
15 l
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Maybe we could tell Mr. Udall 16!
End 1
}
that the Committee takes a poor view to this --
17 18' 19l 20l 21 22!
23;
- I 24 q Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 4 0
i i
il 67 jeril Il CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
40, and make them engineers.
side 2 cr4553 2!
And no conversion attempts.
How does that strike you?
3l tee me make a note.
I 4!
Okay, the dollar levels.
5l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Excuse me a second.
It's l
6 got two interns, engineers on there now.
7 MR. BARRY:
Yes, they are accommodated within the, 8!
you know, the 37.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Okay, that's what I wanted 10l to be sure of.
i 11l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see, the dollars -- the 12l; comp and benefits adjust to a staff size, obviously.
Program 13l support of 320 is sort of in the middle of '77 and
'78.
It i
i 14.
went down in '78 there.
Travel rising -- well, the committee i
15l runs all over the country.
I'd be inclined ~not to fool with I
16l; the dollars, just too small.
17 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board panels.
i 18 !
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What's their adjusted --
l 19!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think we ought to take a l
20!
hard look.
I think we ought to do a study of it.
21i MR. BARRY:
They stay at 38.
I 22!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I wonder if this -- do 23i you have fiscal '78 estimates?
The real '78 numbers say 38?
l 24:
MR. BARRY:
38.
For the licensing board panel.
Ace-Federal Recor+ers, Inc.
25l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I see.
And they're asking i
i
il U,
68 jeri2 1'
for two more.
Now let me understand something.
19 panel i
2i panel members are full-time employees.
Are the other 19 l
3!
support?
Staff or what?
l 4!
Do they have engineering support?
i 5
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, and clerical support, and 6 ll so on.
l 7
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Indeed, if I read this 8
correctly, adding the two people in Level 2 I would assume 9:
would be clerical people because it says it would alleviate i
10!
the administrative burden and contribute to the smooth l
11; operation of the Licensing Board.
12!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Tell me again what the '78 i
13l number should be.
14:
MR. BARRY:
38.
When we reduce them to 38 in l
15;
'78 as a matter of this reduction program, we have no reclama.
i 16; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Just shows they are good I,
a 17, soldiers.
18 MR. GOSSICK:
Or they don't read their mail.
I 19; (Laughter.)
20 I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's why they want the 21 additional administrative support, so they won't overlook
't h
22 notices like that.
1 23 lI MR. BARRY:
They are really directly associated 24' with case work.
Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc.
25 ;l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do you have standard o
ti
F 69 t
jeri 3 I
projection of case work that you use to test all these, or 2
something?
l 3;
MR. BARRY:
Yes, we do.
In our call, we put out i
4!
the forecast of case work.
I 5:
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And was that goin p or 6
was that going down?
7' MR. BARRY:
Down.
8i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Down.-So why are any of 9
these groups increasing in size?
1 10!
MR. BARRY:
Well, ACRS say they have, earlier in II!
the day, additional things to do.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, what about the 13l Atomic Safety and Licensing Board, or Howard --
I4l MR. BARRY:
Well, that's the reason we have taken i
15 them down.
t-16 COFD1ISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, Howard went up.
17' MR. BARRY: Well, Howard's main task, of course, 18 he has more administrative support-type work, lawyers.
19, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I suppose those 20' balance out.
What about these Atomic Safety and Licensing 21 Boards, why should they go up?
22 i
MR. BARRY:
They're actually going down.
I mean, 23' what they really did is come in with a Level -- you notice 24 that they thought their program was 42.
You notice they asked Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc. 4 25!
for 40 for
'79, so they volunteered to come down 2.
And we ll a
l 70 jeri4 Ij said how about 2 more.
And they did not reclama, He i
2I actually offered us a reduction of 2 on his own.
3l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
He ought to be commended, d i and we ought to leave him at that level.
Give him a medal.
l 5l Give him that two he asked for as a reward.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And a pat on the back.
I 7
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me temper that just a little 8
We helped him and when we went down and looked at his work 9
load, and we helped him decide he should come down some.
In 10 other words, we quantified his work load for him.
i II!
COMMISSION KENNEDY:
You weren't able to do that I
I2' with a lot of others, though.
This is a fellow who obviously 13l is attuned to needs.
I4 MR. DIRCKS:
The '78 number would be 38.
l l
15i MR. GOSSICK:
Held level -- and your recommendation 16, is to hold him level.
I I7; MR. BARRY:
So now our recommendation would be to 18' hold him level.
Not take him down any more.
I l9l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Concur?
38?
20!
(Commission concurring.)
Lp 6 /f' 'N p 2ll MR. BARRY:
'78 number for a-f-i-eld panel should be g
22! i 15 now.
And again we went in -- cur budget examiners went 23 down and did a work load exercise with them and that was the 24; basis of our mark in '79.
We were supposed to hold them level.
Ace-Feoeral Repor'ers. Inc.
25; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would agree.
I
71 b
jeri 5 Il MR. BARRY:
And I don't think you will find any i
2 difficulty.
1 3!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay?
4l COMMISSICNER KENNEDY:
I agree.
5i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The Office of Public Affairs.
hnu rt umAM-A )IL b
? 4j people inJ E'have in some ways a unique perspective of ~ l i 5; Commission concerns as well as an overview of the issues. h H 6 I simply can't keep up with some of these requests. 7 I have a person that works very closely with Inspection on i 8 ! their overall study, he works closely with NMSS, and has been 9; spending some time with Safeguards, MUF, and sorts of things 10 like that. I can't give them the time that they would like t 11, with me. i 12l Also, I think we have not done a good job in 13 carrying out certain short-term independent studies. Right i 14l now, for example, we are doing one on the treatment of ACRS l 15l letters. But I think we have not done a good job on that. 16 I've always got one or two of those in-house. Staffs are 17 valuable things to be doing subjects that don't fall neatly 18 into any office, but cut across the organization. I i 19i I just haven't had the kind of staff -- we haven't i 20' had the kind of staff to do that sort of thing. And also i 21{ some program assessment work. I think the budget book was a 22! tentative first step toward trying to move tcward asking scne of the I i 23; questions about our overall program activities. I think, Lee 24 and I have talked about some of this in the past. We have a Ace Federal Reporters. Inc. % GC 'jg ! ~ > 25 system of NB0 s set up. We administer the Commission-level 2 I 76 Q~' fy][' O AJ jeri 10 I NBO*s, but I think it is a fledgling operation and it's got 2l quite a ways to go,quite frankly, before it is going to be of 3! much use. I think it is important. I i 4l So I think these people would assist us in doing ~ 5! some things that we simply have not gotten to do and I don't 6! see any likelihood we will, unless something we are doing 7 now is out out. 'If you can find that, I would be more than 8! happy to have guidance on that. j 9I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What's the current manning 10 level 7 Il MR. DIRCKS: 18. Authorized level or what -- 12 CHAIRIUuN HENDRIE: Manning level. I 13l MR. DIRCKS: What do you have on board? i E:' [G ,(:, I4 l' MR. PEDERS,0N: I think I have right now on board 15 15 because of Huberman's slot and Norm Terrell's slot -- thes a 16 are advertised and will soon be filled, they are in the mill. I 17! But you are talking about right now how many desks, 15. I 18; But these are because we.have had a couple of people leave. 19; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, good enough. 20: How many more of these have we got to go? 2I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Just about there. \\ 22l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What's the upshot? i 23! CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I vote to hold it level at 18. 24j I think over time in the coming year, we are going to want Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc. l 25; to consider the sort of function is done in the Agency as it t i l 77 l jeri 11'h T (PE 1' affects us and the officers on Lee's level. I think OTE is 2l legitimately included in a rather careful look at the comp-3! troller, Mcdonald, Reardon, et cetera, Operations, and we have 1 4 held those level pending -- or allowed Mcdonald perhaps more.- 5l MR. BARRY: I believe we already asked Mcdonald I 6l what we allowed him. 7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's right. If you add two i e more people, they could do more studies. If you add three 9l people, they could do more studies. If you added 100 people 10l to that damned division, you could do a splendid number of l 11i studies. All I can say is, I haven't been able to read -- I i 12 have a suspicion I'm not going to read the production. I i 13l would perhaps suggest it is already near an optimum size. 14l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We do have -- 15. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If it's okay. If either of you 16l feel strongly that he ought to have the men, I'll defer to 17 that because -- 18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Nope. 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. 18. Office of the 20; General Counsel. Their level is 19 now; is that a correct 21. number? 22 MR. BARRY: Right. i 23: CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And what is the '78 estimated? l 24; MR. GOSSICK: '78 is 20, I'm sorry, 22. Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.{ 25l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 22 is correct? l i i 78 I jeri 12 MR. GOSSICK: That's right; we did not propose to 2! l take any away in aat adjustment in any case. 3' j CHAIRMA.4 HENDRIE: Neither would you splatter 1 of 4l the 17 against them. S'j MR. GOSSICK: We didn't take any away, i 6': CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, you know, there was the i 7l cut of 15 and then the President assigned a number 17 higher, 8 which we chuckled over, because for one thing it was going i 91 to be hard to deny the President. I 10 MR. GOSSICK: Right. Ili CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So there were in effect 17 j 12i salted in back someplace, but those are out in the line. I 13i! MR. GOSSICK: That's right. I 14I I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. I 3 15l Or will be? l 16' l Okay, so 19 in '77, 22 in '78, recommend 26 in i 17j '79. His present strength at level 2 -- let's see what he 18 l says about level 3. Increasing demands of the Sunshine Act -- 19 MR. BARRY: In '77, he had 17 and you gave him 20i 2 more and you put him up to 19 for the Sunshine Act and -- \\ 21 that was part of your revision. 22l' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: To deal with the new i 23' appeals. 24 MR. BARRY: Right. Now that doesn't mean that ederal Reporters. Inc.[i keF 25 ll he won't have more work in that same area. l 4 i'. 79 l m I jeri 13 1t COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why should he have more 2; in '79 than in '78? i 3! MR. 3ARRY: Well, I don't know -- di CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I want to know two things. 5; First of all, with regard to a certain review system referred O p 6 to, I want to know how to pronounce "certiorari. k i 71 MR. OSTRACH: Certiorari, sir. 8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And what does it mean? 9 MR. OSTRACH: It means discretionary review by a l i 10: superior tribunal of an inferior tribunal. i l lij CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, this is I ("! ;Dht o w umwAIRMAN GILINSKY: We being the superior tribunal. o, 12! l[a 13l g*\\, % L c 7, Let's see, Jim outlined just briefly for me his A.1 3 14l office is attempting to look over the judgments of the-Penal ]Vl') l 15' Board, I guess. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, no, the point was 17, that in the past you could not appeal to the Commission, and l 18l we now have instituted a procedure by which you can. I 19l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes, but he's going -- I I 20l believe this review system speaks to more than that and l 21l contemplates an OGC scanning of the whole ball -- i 22! COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: There's also the question 23! of discretionary review. We can review X number of cases, 24 ! which we have -- 4e-Federal Reporters, lec. l 25l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We have been doing that. I 80 l{i jeri 14 We've been doing that already. 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I guess the OGC view is 3l that it has not been done in any organized and consistent I fashion but that the Commission's attention is called to 5 particular ALAB actions by virtue of, I don't know, you hear l 6' the Staff screaming out in the hall and so on. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, the staff could 8ll argue that the reviews are what's needed because the parties i 9 can in fact defuel. And, therefore, if there is something -- 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And if they don't appeal, 11 we'll be here to bomb their heads. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That's one way to look l 13 at it. I Idl CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I guess it's a question Q 15 that it might be useral to discuss with Kel y. Whether P 1 161j my recollection is correct. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But what does that have to 18 lj do with his request. All that I think has already been l 191 i covered in the estimates for 1978. i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It is and it isn't. Here, the 21 22. In previous budget reviews, that is the '78 review, 22 OGC indicated it could accommodate the implementation of 1 23 [ the Sunshine Act, whatever this review is, which I cannot i 244; date, an additional antitrust review at that level of 22. Me-Federal Reporters, Irg. l 25: However, this year they have put in 4 people at level 3, and i l 0 1 81 jeri 15 l' that would be above the 22, and they say in level 3, OGC is 2 ll requesting an 18 percent increase, or 4 -- 3! CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY: For the same thing. l 4-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: He indicates these additional 5! personnel are required to meet the increasing demands l 6l associated with the Sunshine Act and the unpronounceable l 7 review system. 8 COMMICSIONER KENNEDY: Exactly the same line as 9 the previous page. 10 CHAIRMAN HENDR1E: Well, they had a little in 11 '78 and they got by on 22, and now there is more of this 12 anticipated for '79. 13j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I fail to see why more of 14f it will occur in 1979 than in '78. The trouble is that l 15l we haven't gotten the '78 yet. I 16l (Simultaneous discussion.) 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It vant up by 3. 18, I think, I must say in view of other actions and our general 19i thrust of our review of the Commission still in office, it is 20l my inclination -- my inclination would be to hold level here, i i 211 bat I think he ought to be heard on the subject, and I sus-(JllU () 22; pect that_it another one -- it will either hop into e 23: Thursday morning, Sam, or if you begin to get full there, 24 those things can cross the lunch to the afternoon session, Mehderal Reporters. Inc. 25; whichis already scheduled for these purposes. Okay? i d i 82 l i jeri 16 1 But I'm going to put down 22, and the guidance from Jim is 1 2 I think that is going to be -- I think he ought to under-3: stand that's our inclination. t 4! The Office of Congressional Affairs, what are i 5-their corrected numbers for '77 and '78? 6; MR. GOSSICK: Constant 7. 1 7i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 7 and 7. 8: MR. GOSSICK: There were 5 and we, during this 9; past -- in the subsequent year we reallocated 2 spaces. l 10! CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 7 and 7 and 7, that seems to i 11 me to be a good level, since they have recently gotten me I 12t through the Congress of the United States, I have a warm 13, place in my heart for them. I 14l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I will say that my i 15 impression is that this is at a fair minimum level. 16l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I would think so, in view of I 17 {l the kinds of running around we have to do, t 18! COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We have a vast increase 19 in the number of committees to whom we are now responsible. 20 And, I think, an increasing range of legislation which l 3 5 21' affects the Agency, and I think the Cleaa Air Act is a clear n 22 lj example of what can happen if we haven' t got the closest 23! kind of tracking going on all the time. And this is the 24; kind of function which we oIght to perform but it takes Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.] 25 0 bodies to do it. H 'l 9 N .i i 83 i JERIl7 1, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I think Kammerer runs a 2 fairly effective shop, and if it appears -- as we go through, 3; what kind of comes back, there's no question on some days 4 I expect we will have to assign a Commissioner to each 5! committee in order to have somebody appear in answer to their 6! request, you know, we are going to be all over the place for 7 a couple of months on that licensing bill. 8! Let's'see how it goes. If it looks like, for 9 peak perieds like that, he's badly under fire, then we might 10l consider whether he ought to have another operator or whatevel II But at the moment he seems to fee. that he's okay with the l l 12) 7 and I do notice that he seems to like to work a lot of I 13 i that himself. It's a very highly specialized, personal 14l contact sort of an operation, and I can see why that would I 15i be the case. 16l But I agree with you, it's certainly not a smidge I i 17j bigger than it ought to be. 18 i McTiernan's operation, then. 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: How does that break down 20l with respect to the order of function? l 21; MR. GOSSICK: Investigating; auditing and investi-l 22 gation. Investigation started out to be much smaller than 23! auditing but it's grown just a little bit. i 1 24! Do vou have break down of auditor's budget and Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. j 25! investigation? i i l l 84 i l I 1 jeril8 i MR. BARRY: I sure don't. i 21 l MR. GOSSICK: My impression is, you know, like 3l 4 or 5 on the investigations side and the rest is audit, i 4l that type of deal; but I could be wrong. I Sl COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That's a pretty good size r 6 I i audit. 7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Is it about half and half I l or what? 9 JR. GOSSICK: I think it's much heavier on the I 10l j audit side. I 11 MR. BARRY: His requirement is for additional 12 investigators, is what he wants. 13l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I see. I'm sorry, I went and I 14 did something else. '77 and '78, are the correct numbers 1 ~4 here. I 16 1 MR. GOSSICK: Yes. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 25 and 26? i 18' MR. GOSSICK: Right. I 19' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right, so he's got 25 on 20 b board; he's going to get another one next year. He's asking 21' for -- his level 1 and level 2 seem a little out of whack. i 22 MR. BARRY: That should have been level 3. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The 3 should have been down at -- 24 ) MR. BARRY: Level 1 and 2 should have been the Ace-Federal Recor+ert Inc. i 25 ;' same. The current level, the '78 and the minimum, so the 8 i 85 l jeri 19 1, should have been level 3. 2l What he's saying is that his minimum level by 3l definition is the same as the '78 level, his present operatinq 4 level. In other words, in '79 he can't exist with less than' Si 1978. 1 6 MR. GOSSICK: And he apparently is not unhappy I i I 7j with an increase granted to him. 8 MR. BARRY: No, he is happy with the two additiona 9' investigators. I 10j CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Happy with what? l 11 MR. BARRY: Well, he has requested 34, and we i 12i suggested 28 by doing a little bit of an analysis of this l 13l operation. And he said that was fine, that he was satisfied with : 8. 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I'd be inclined to go l 15! along with that. That sounds reasonable to me. 16l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay? I 17! COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, you know, we haven't ll 18 increased any of these other offices that fall into this g_ 7- .x ( 19, {E l (review' in our Qategory.' We have held them, except for ~ _ _ _. 20 Mcdonald. I'd be inclined to hold this one. 21 MR. DIRCKS: I guess this office is not an audit-22l ing office as normally defined. They don't go out and audit i 23: accounts, contractors, I mean. They do more the investigative-24' type ones. Ace-Federol Reporters, Inc., 25l MR. BARRY: His concern, Mr. Gilinsky, is on i 86 I the investigative tide. That his work load is increasing, jeri 20 I 2! and that's in everything, as we get more units on line, we l 3! get more stuf f to poke around -- l 4l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: He may have some of I 5! the rat-fink stuff. l 6l MR. BARRY: And the rat-fink stuff. r 7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I talked to him the other 8li afternoon and I think it is helpful as his investigations. 9 It's sure to grow by leaps and bounds. If he doesn't get 10. too far behind, so that, you know, long times elapse before i 11 you get anybody to do anything on the job that is -- a time 12 limit. I'd be inclined to let that go through, if that's 13 okay with you. That would make it 28. i 14! If I read down the man -- in general, the dollars l l 15 on these offices, I haven't seen anything to ccmplain about 16 because the compensation benefits will be adjusted automa-17l tically to what was set by this log. And it looks to me like 18l the travel and program support, where it's called for, is 19 perrectly reasonable at whatever manning level. 20! Let me, then, just read the manpower, as I have l 21 them jotted down, the results of the discussion on manpower. 22 The alternate commissioners will remain at 30. 23! The Secretary at 38. The ACRS increase from 37 to 40. The 24l Licensing Panel remain at 38. The Appeal Panel remain at Ace-federal Reporters. Inc. l g/g 73 [h 25' 15. Office of Policy Affairs remain at 15. OTE-remain at i i i o7 1 jeri 21 1 18. OGC remain at 22; however, we will hear Jim Kelly on ( 2 the subject on -- (p ni C. 3i -SECRETARY-CHILK: Thursday. f I 4; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Thursday. l 5l Next, Office of Congressional Affairs, oka; c 7. 6l Office of Inspector and Auditor, increase 2 from l 7) 26 to 28, with the 2 to be investigators, okay? 8! Well, let's see, if I make total between your i i 91 offices and ours, Lee, why we have allowed an increment of i 10i 15 on a base of how many? l 11! .MR. DIRCKS: 670. l 12l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What's the '78 total in the i l 13 Commission offices? 14! 250. I l 151 MR. GOSSICK: Yes. '78 adjustment at 259. l l 16: CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: About 250. l 17f MR. GOSSICK: Okay, I'll about 250. 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: About 250. And the EDO officers 19 are about -- 1 20j MR. GOSSICK: 305, 300 roughly. l 21i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 309 at some place but that l 22j was before a couple of minor corrections. 23l 305 plus 15 parked in like 550. 24 MR. GOSSICK: You have to add now 270. Ace federal Reporters. Inc.! 25! CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, that was a particular I i i 88 I i l 1l jeri 22 48 plus on that. 60 days, it was quite a different thing. 1 i 2: I was looking at -- l 3' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We had an increment of f i 4! 15 out of 350, right? i 56 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: He had an increment of 10 on 6 a base of about 300 and we've got a base of 5 on 250, which 7 shows the Commission -- of all the major subunits of theb 8; Agency, the Commission office /s are holding the line. j 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Fighting the good fight. 10l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, it's not that -- 1 II (Discussion off the record.) i 12 I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, any other business for 13 this meeting? l I4 I think this is a highly useful session. I'm i 15l sorry it ran 2 hours and 20 minutes. I 16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Here we've done just about 17 the end of the job. 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Very definitely, I think so. 19l (Discussion off the record.) i 20l i. 21 I 22! i 23 ! 24 h Ace Federo! Reporters. Inc.!j 25I! s a 4 89 jeri 23 1 CIIAIRMAN IIENDRIE: Our Sunshine officer will 2; address us. 3l MR. OSTRACII: Briefly, I suggest that you treat i 4l this transcipt the way you treated the transcript of a i 5l similar meeting yesterday afternoon and withhold it in its l 6 entirety until after the budget is signed into law, and 7l schedule for release at that time. I I 8i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You know, there's some 9, parts of this -- I can't specify them specifically -- but 10 some personnel matters which I think -- 11 CIIAIRMAN HENDRIE : Personalities, under personal 121 privacy. I We got into some personnel matters -- 13l I 14 (Simultaneous discussion.) ( 15 l CIIAIRMAN IIENDRIE: What do you think of that? i I 16! MR. OSTRACII: I'd be glad to examine the trans-17j cript and review it with an eye to what could be withheld 18 Pursuant to Exemption 2 if it is personnel matters that you \\ obc. t) 19 are talking about. But-OTO has had previous memoranda -- 20l Exemption 2 is a weak link to rely upon for the Government-i in-Sunshine. The Supreme Court has instructed us to read 21 22l it very, very narrowly. 23l It only applies to matters that could not be L 24' expected to be of interest to the public. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25! CIIAIRMAN IIENDRIE : You mean if the Commission 90 ll l' jeri 24 1 wanted to sit down and discuss Lee and getting a new 2 executive director, that would be exposable. 3: MR. OSTRACH: I tried to mention that before, i i 4 That might come under the rubric of behavior and personal i Si privacy. l 6! COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, look, Lee discussed l 7l an indi.vidual and indicated he thought the man wanted to i 8 ! ch'ange jobs. I 9l MR. OSTRACH: Yes, material like that I would be 10 h glad to review. i ll' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What if that went public? l 12' MR. OSTRACH: I'm sorry, I thought you said 13l personnel and shifting of offices around in the allocation l 14 of personnel. I i 15l If privacy is the question, we'll examine the i 16i transcript. t i 17i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right, good enough. 18 Treat potential reorganization matters. 19 l; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I was going to say, you've i 20 got to understand that potential reorganization matters are l 21 0 the least of it. There's almost no way that one can find l!,i 22 ] basis for withholding that; am I right? l n 23 J MR. OSTRACH: Yes, sir. 24! (Whereupon, at 6:00 p.m., the meeting was Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. y end 2 25; adjourned.)}}