Text

Transcript of Public Meeting Briefing on Initial Loft Test. Meeting Held in Washington,Dc on 781221.Supporting Documentation Encl.Pp 1-46
	ML19256A629
Person / Time
Issue date:	12/21/1978
From:	Ahearne J, Bradford P, Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R; NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:	;
Shared Package
ML19256A630	List: ML19256A629; ML19256A636; ML19256A639; ML19256A652; ML19256A654;
References
	REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7901090111
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NU CLE AR REGUL ATO RY CO MMISSIO N-IN THE MATT *R OF:

PUBLIC MEETING BRIEFING ON THE INITIE LOFT TEST Plcce -

Washington, D.C.

l Octe.

Thursda/, 21 Dece::ber 1978 P::g e s 1 - 4 6

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DISCL* IMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States

!!uclear Reguia:Ory C:mmission held on ':hursday, 21 Decenter 1978 in the Commission's offices a: 1717 H Street, ii. W., Wasning::n, O. C.

The meeting was c:en to pualic attendance and observation.

This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and i may contain inaccuracies.

The transcript is intended sciely f:r general informa'ticnal purposes.

As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is no: part of.he formal or informal record of decision cf the ca::ers dis:ussed.

Expressiens of pinien in this transcric: co not necessarily reflect final deteminations or beliefs.

. o pleading or c:her pa:er may be filed with :he C0mmission in any proceeding as the resul: of or addressed Oc any statement or ar;.:cen c0ntained herein, except as the CO m:ission may authorize.

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1 p' UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

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i l PUBLIC MEETING BRIEFING ON THE INITIAL LOFT TEST S

6' Room 1130 7

1717 H Street, N.

W.

Washington, D. C.

3 t

Thursday, 21 Dece:rber 19 78 i

9 I I

i The C = mission met, pursuan: to notice, at 9:40 a.m.

10.ii n

2 : : O.2 11 '

DR. JOSEPH M.

HENDRIE, Chairman 12 VICTOR GILI" SKY, Commissioner 13 1 ',

RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commi iicner 1.11 PETER A.

B RADFO RD, Ccmmissioner 15 JOH'I F. AHEARNE, Ccmmissioner 16 PRESENT:

17 i l

Messrs. Levine, Murley, McPhe rson, Gossick, Snyder, law gdKelley, and Mat:scn 19 cV a

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2, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

If we could come to order.

4' Commissioner Kennedy will be here immediately, and Commissioner i

5' Gilinsky, I trust, soon thereafter.

6, The Commission meets this morning to be.crierec on 7-the initial LOFT Nuclear Test which was run something like 10 a

davs a-o?

12 days ago, n Idaho?

3 I'm sure the Research Staff 9

I should note that 10 will -- that these tests produce a whale of a lot of data, and 11,

it takes a long time to shake it all down and really understand 12 everything that's going on.

13 So that what we will have here this morning is the I

14 12-day su. mary.

And I don't think -- I think we all ought to 1

15.I understnnd that it's sort of the best viaw of the overview of 16 the staff at this time, but it certainly doesn't replace or in i

17 any way affect the longer term, more detailed examination that l

ce mace or enese results.

18, w e.,.,.

t 19 Lee, why don't you go ahead.

20 MR. GCSSICK:

Okay, Mr. Levine, I think, has some i

21 introductory remarks, and then we 'll introduce the other i

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Saul, cc ahead.

4.

I 24 ;

MR. LEVINE:

Thank you, Lee.

+,ce,.i neoormi. inc. ;

25 !

I would just l'ke to say that we were very pleased

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4

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that the test went well; that the emergency core cooling systems 11 t

o 2 ;j operated as designed; that the water came into the vessel and i cooled the core.

3

.li It is much more difficult to sav anythinc. in terms s

of the true meaning of this test, at this time.

There is some 3

6 i more to sav., and Tom Murley and Don McPherson will cover that.

i Tom?

7 (Slide.)

8 MR. MUPIEY:

Thank vou.

10 Well, we are pleased to tell the Commission of t.;e 11 i successful completion of the first nuclear test in LOFT.

There i

12 are two aspects of the successful operation.

13,

The first is the experimental research information J

14 that we learned from the test, and Don McPherson is going to 15 : cover this in detail in just a minute.

16 But second is the completion of the construction

'I 17 Iand readiness testing of a large and complex project.

I can i

l 13 i remember the first LOFT review meeting I sat in three years d

19 ago.

There was no LOFT Project scheduled; there was no cost i

20 estimate to completion; and there was no approved test plan.

Could I have the next chart?

j I

.,c (Slide.)

.d n

3 J, There has been a lcnc. history of schedule slic..cac.es t

74 on the projecc, and that is shown by this chart which is made

CW E9Ctf88 A fDONtri, Inc. i lfrom a GAO Recort on the LOFT Pro 2ect.

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1-3 jwb i

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(Commissioner Gilinsky enters the room at 9:45 a.m.)

j i

l MR. MURLEY:

This shows the estimate of the comcle-the date that the estimate

I. tion date in the vertical axis versus was made on the horizontal axis; and a 45 degree line indicates i

month-for-month slion. age; and a horizontal line indicates that

.c I

the schedule has maintained.

6 And you can see, generally almost since the inception:

7 i

1. ; o f the o. ro j ect, it slicced month-for-month, dav.-for-dav, until iol'1976.

It took us about a year to straighten out the project.

'i I

as failure is an orphan; success has a thousand

.lAndasyouknow, f a thers.

11 12 ;1 And on this croj ect, the kev cecole responsible 13 ', were in the Idaho Ocerations Of fice, Charlie Williams and Bob I

14. Tiller of DOE who did an outstandinc job.

1 1

For the contractor, EG&G, Larry Burch and Mick 15 16 ] Kaufman we"-

absolutely essential for the success of the i

1,,icroject.

13 l And of course, Don McPherson of the NRC Staf f.

l May I have the next chart?

19 (Slide.)

,c In October of 1976, Bob Tiller of DOE made a commit-1 2

N

..,.,: ment at that time to Bob Seamons who was the head of ERDA.

!l

,,j The commi ment was that he would complete LCFT, the first

..i 74 nuclear test, by April 1979, and he would do it for a cost of a Fececa! Recor vrt. 'r'c.

..c "I S66.4 million.

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i 1 ll This was an agency commitment,. an agency milestone that was subsequently transf erred to 00E.

They made it, 16 3

weeks ahead of schedule and 310.6 million under the cos: commi -

4 ment.

5 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

Tom, is that essentially the 6'

same.oroject?

i 7!

MR. MURLEY:

Yes.

8 MR. LEVINE:

There were no changes in the scoping.

o' MR. MURLEY:

They also prepared what they called a 10 : "Cinderella schedule" in 1976, which was one that they though:

n 11 '

they could meet.

It had no contingency in it.

12 They met the Cinderella schedule within three days 1311 of their estimate in 1976.

d 1

14 4 The reactor is new ready for the NRC tes: program.

o i

15,! Don McPherson and the NRC Idaho representatives on my staf f --

16 that is, Pete Strom and Bob Smith -- have reviewed all the 1

17 r. clan: systems and have identified the cu: standing work items 4

19 ! tha t remain.

'i 10 DOE will take care of clearing up these work items i

20 over the coming years, the normal part of the prcject.

They 21 don't affect the test operation of the plant.

New let's turn to the experimental results.

i 23 :

LOFT is only cne par cf our LCCA ECCS prcgram, as i

24 v.ou know, and we still have much more. work to do.

Don McPherson 1.E9Cef st 9 tCCf ttf S, I"C.

S i is going to talk about what we learned from this test, the 1

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1-5 jwo i

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iJ 11 1i future test plans in LOFT.

He will describe comparison of the l

. data with the calculations; and then, finally, the conclusions i

1

,6 and some cautions about drawing too broad a conclusion >us:

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4' from this tes alone.

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c' Don?

s i

l MR. MC PHERSON:

Thank you, Dr. Murley.

6 l

Gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to be able to 7l i

gi report to you today on the results of the first nuclear test.

You, as have I, have looked forward to this day for several 7

i, l 10 years.

11,

I would like to begin by showing you where L2-2 fits

^

12 into the first nuclear series.

i 13 f (Slide.)

14 The L2 series is a power ascension series that is a i

15 series of nuclear tests in which the power is gradually increased i

6[ from S kilcwatts per foot upwards.

I will go over each test in 1.

l 17 a second.

And in which there is a double-ended cold-leg break 19 simulated.

19 So all tests assumed double-ended cold-leg break, 1

o L and the first test was run at 8 kilowatts per foot with the 21 ' fuel unpressurized.

The nuclear plants today have pressurized afuel.

a, q

I e.,. !

We assumed a loss -- no loss of offsite pcwer, which 24 ;means the emergency ccre ccoling systems operated with no delay asecew neconm. nnc.25 j in time required for -- as a result of the loss of Offsite power.

1 f!

0 i

1-6 jwo

,e ii L4-1 is one of an alternate emergency core cooling 1 o, t

series which we have injected for technical reasons.

I will 2

get back to that later.

1 i

L2-3 is the next test in this series.

And, vou see s

the only dif f erence from the test we have just done is that it 3,

i is at 12 kilowatts per foot.

This is specific cower, the 6

i I

linear heat generation rate at which plants -- operating plants 7,

are operating todav, the maximum time.

3 L2-5 would repeat that test, but this time assuming 9.,

a loss of off-site power.

g

.I 11 L2-4 would repeat today's test, but now at 16 kilo-watts per foot.

This is higher than the nominal peak values 12 13,, at which clants are operating todav.

o i

i L2-6 --

y COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Why would you use it, then?

15 MR. MC PHERSON:

It is possible for plants to go to 16 i'l I

I that value, and they can still remain within their tech spec l,e j3] limits.

li CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:

They can go that much higher than 19 3l peak linear power densities which are now --

MR. LEVINE:

Thev are 12, but there were proposals in 3.1,

.,lthe past years to go to 16, and even la ki10 watts per foot, and i they may well come in the future.

.a.,

i 4

MR. MC FHERSCN:

Some 3&W plants operate at small number

.c.a.e..i :t e:e,..,. me.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You always like to have your last 25 i

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' data points scmewnere above the coeratinc. coints, so you are

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interpolating rather than extrapolating.

MR. MC PhERSON:

There is a chilos.:nhv. to that, dh I since we co permit our calculations to.credict un to 220 0 4g 1 Fahrenheit, we should have some data up in that region -- not

)

that we know that this will give us that data mow -% t we have 6

seen the results of the first test, but we calculate it would.

7; L2-6,

v. es, we run this with oressurized fuel, so a

1 :nis i s tv. o. lca., c: r. ower reactors toc,av..

1

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i I have mentioned this L4 series test.

That was 1,.

s inserted for technical reasons to be prepared for in the c"ent 11 i

+

f fuel failure f r the L2-3.

12 i

As a result of the -- the results that you will see 13 I todav, we are currentiv ving discussions with Licensing to 14j' i

1., l de termine if that shoulu be the proper secuence of tests'.

.I MR. GOSSICK:

Don, could vou sav something abou: the 16 s.',--. ' ' 4

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,l Since LCFT was originally considered to be a;. thermal ly hydraulic test, we were not trying to do fuel testing here.

We

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I" tOOrtprg, Inc, j TESC fr St Next slide, please.

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i!!

(Slide.)

'l 2i "his is a schematic of the LOFT primary coolant o

3 1 system.

The reactor vessel is shown in the center.

To the 4,

left of the vessel is the operating loop, the intact loop, i

i5' which simulates three of four intact loops on a four-loop plat.

i 6

We have the usual pumps, steam generator, and hot-i 7j leg / cold-leg back into the reactor vessel.

On the right is e

the br5oken-lcop side, which simulates one broken loop of a 94 four-loop plant.

1

'l This is the hot leg (indicating) going out to a

10l, 11 i simulated steam generator and pump, and at this point we simu-12 late the break in the pipe.

Normally, the loop would return 13 1 back to the reactor vessel, but we break open the pipe, turn it 14,a out, and put quick-openinc, blowdown valve at the end of each q

15 '

pipe.

16 When those valves open, the primary coolant is

'l i

17 released to a low-pressure suppression vessel where the pressure la is controlled to simulate that in a containment vessel.

3 19,'

We will look at a more simple diagram of the inter-i 20 nals of the reactor vessel in the next slide.

21 (Slide.)

22 i Here are the cold leg md the hot leg of the intact i

23 G icoc.

This is where the emergency core cooling would be 24 : injected.

When the water enters, it comes down what we call w ecew newr m. we. !

r i

25 ; the "downccmer," which is anannulus around the core barrel.

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i 1 II When it reaches the bottom, where we call the " lower i

2 olenum," the water moves upwards through the nuclear core.

i 2 " Abcve the core, it enters the upper plenum, and then exits to l

4 the hot leg and steam generator.

5i On the right, we indicate the broken loop, which 6

before the tests are stagnant at temperature and pressure, and i7' they only start to come into play when the quick-opening 3

blowdown valves are open.

ihen, the coolant rushes out the 91 two legs frcm both sides towards the suppression tank.

4 i

1v '

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ext.

i II (Slide.)

12 ;

3efore I

o into what happened and show vou v

131 schematically what happened in the test, I want to go through 4

I4 a chronology of the events that occurred.

IS.

I am oniv c.oinc. to.cick a few Fo.ecific ones from i

16 j this list to point out to you.

Of course we timed the break 17' f em time zero.

The centrol rods have completely inserted by i

IB ' l.7 seconds.

But the shutdown has already progressed from 3 *- i

' time zero, as a result of voiding in the cora.

So this inser-1 20 tion is unneces'sary, but it is of interes to see Ehat they

'l 21' actually droo in more c.uicklv. than the tech stecs require for a a

22 cold red drop.

That is without the plant going through a less-23

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First, the hic.h.Oressure in ection system,

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2 operated system, which initiated at 12 seconds.

l The accumulatcr, pressurized vessel, which initiated 3

4 at 18 seconds.

5 The lower pressure injection system, which came on 6,

at 29 seconds.

i 7

At this point, we started to see quenching and a

, v. 20 seconcs, we saw i rer, cod in t.ne core at a seconus.

an as l

9 l tha t the core was comoletely covered, reflooded.

i l

COMMISSIONER A'-iEARNE:

Could you contrast those 10 J

'l 11 '

times with what you had estimated they would be in advance?

19 MR. MC PHERSON:

All times down to this point were

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estimated quite accurately.

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14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

So you did assume, for example, 15 i that the control rods would insert in that?

I tl 1.6l MR. MC PHERSON :

That is correct, yes.

.I 17 l

,own to wnere won : they C O.,4 A, S

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i 13, estimate accurately?

a Up MR. MC PHERSON:

Down to the point where the lower 20 plenum filled with liquid.

Frca this point on, our prediction i

219 for reflood was much slower -han that at which it occurred.

a 4

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;j CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Could you say rouchly what a

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,g MR. MC PHERSON:

The prediction for complete reflood 24 )!

.a.secere me:orters. inc. I was about 90 seconds -- 30 to 90 seconds.

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1-11 jw'o 13 I

l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Are you going to show us the i..,

.i comparisons?

2 i

i MR. MC PHERSON:

Yes.

3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Of the time?

3 i

MR. MC PHERSON:

I have a slide which can show that, 5

yes.

If you can remind me at the end, I will go back to it.

i It is a backup slide.

7:

4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

I mean, isn't that the point ao J

of the whole thing?

l MR. LEVIN :

It's one of the points.

There are 10 jj, o ther points, too.

If we can get through this one, and come i

back to it --

12 t

i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Do you have a backup slide

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14,j that addresses the time?

!,i MR. MC PHERSON:

Yes.

12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

If it's not a great incon-16

.i venience, would you mind showing it?

I r

MR. MC PHERSCN:

Not at all.

It's one of the 18 i l

end il lettered slides, Joe.

19 4

(Commissoiner Kennedy arrived at 11:00 a.n.)

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3 Here is our measured value and this is the cuench 4

I am referring Oc.

Our crecictions varied oetween 30 and 90 5

f or ne final cuencn.

CO MMI SS IONER AHE ARNE :

Thank you.

7 COVMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Exceo: shouldn't that line

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9 VR. MC ?HERSON:

This was -- I mentioned the ccre a

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Wna: I nad there was the core c overino..

12 This is actually One cuench of :ne nottes rod, so tney are 13 related.

But the cuench of the hottest rod was at about 14 40 seconds, there still was some time recuired for the water 1:.

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And these 17 are predictions c f the hignest tencerature turn-around free a n c. = _A.p lo-

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22 MR. MC PHERSON: Their inten is to be bes c i. e.". a.

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3 This always, to my knowleo;e, has led to coces wnicn are a

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6 The TRAC code is the more advanced three-dimensional code 7

and has better pnys.ics in it.

The RELAP code is a one-dimensional sort of a warhorse that we nave been using for

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- 'e 12 point here tnat these calculations were done several weeks 13 ahead of a test and they used assumed initial conditions 14 because they didn't know, of course, wnat the plant was 4n.

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'iie l l, as it turns out, the actual conditions of :ne test 17

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23 CO.VMI SSIC.1ER GILI NSKY: You mean these are usin; c

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COMMISSIO J5R GILI:;5.<Y:

nould you expect it to ce 6

that sensitive?

.. = '. i. c *. s

5 a.

".a.

a. m.. - a. r. a. *. ". =.

'a 7

,1..R. L _ V 7 'i.:..-

Yes.

ii

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a l a n *. = '.'. a r. '. s

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s '. o - =. "

a. n a. -, v, s o.. a..n.. =..

d s

. e-cu..r. e. >m p.. :

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,=.2.

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i.

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c u *..' a. '.

a. ~ a. a * '. a. =* ' h a.

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o. a.

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a. r a r. e. =. * * = *.

1.+o o. 4:

jl

a. r - a.. =

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+

g 12 stagnant cecause that Loop is not moving, the re's no di

. olan*-

ovi.n- **-^u-5 i *..

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17

^

y.... e v.

~

la which sets up, and that turns out to nave a fairly strong w.' ^ w d, o w..

s A.

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a. '. '. a., c *

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21 move ahead to the

.T. sin course of tne oriefing.

I think tnere

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4R. V.C phi ?.50.'i:

As soon as the ouick ooening 3

olowdown valves we re coened, the temoerature in :ne Core a

started to rise as the coolant flow re vers ed in direction 5

and oegan to vo id.

This caused the snuidown in the core 6

and at the same time, caused the r is e in temperature on the 7

fuel.

3 So octween one and two seconds, the temoerature was rising

?

quite significantly.

At four seconds, nowever, tne,cressure

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.=d

^ad

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wnc.-=.

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--- ~

ya.

il oega n-in th e downcomer and the lower plenum.

Tna ooilin; 12 caused the water in :ne downconer to go up and out towards 13 the break and it forced wa.er down and up through the core.

la We know.tnis f rom liquid level plots and from 15 ther occuple measurements, temperatur e measurenents.

15 So tnat the high temperatures which had been reacned in

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.l o w w =.. =. -. =... ^ =. =. ". =.. =

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1.:

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19 as tne water passed tnrough.

Every inermoc0Uple, ISO 20 coerating tnermoccuple, showed this quencn.

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00 3.g_=.,

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and wa. w.i.t.'

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,v 23 the water is now.

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7

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6 but no water yet from the energency core cooling system.

In 7

fact, the strongest flow of water begins at 18 seconds, and l

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7 s imoly We re co ve red in Water d i ll in :ne Whole t im e.

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nave sone information frc-whicn we can infer tr.at kind of 4

cehavior.

5 MR. LEVINE:

You can track ne water le vel so 6

the difference has gone up.

7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

"3P" cell sort of level, which, S

you :now, you can't tell whetner you've pot four incnes of 4.,..

4,...._e 3.

2i n..e.,.,,.

.w

!v.

4,.cg =..

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e -

g

_..t.< a w2...

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..y 10 MR. VC ?HER50N:

ae also have licui ce:ectors and 11 thermoccuoles.

.nen there is a steam envircnnent, the 12 thermocouples snca the sazura:ed stean :emoerature if :nere's 13 no water around them.

If nere is water around, they will la dr0p to a lower tem.oerature.

15 Also, liquid level de'.ectors.

16 CHAIRMAN HE.'DRIE:

Okay, onward.

17 MR. MC ?HERSON: Okay, next.

12 sq,4..a..)

17

'/. R. VC.0HER50.1:

So at IS seconds. One larger i

Sm e.l o w 4

e 3.

.g s.

3. w u p.... 7 2 '. 3

m.,.... y. n w y.m.*.

v a

.1.f.a. - -.-=.n.

o y

..y-ws 21 flow and tnis cause a low pressure area a: this injec-ion 22 point which sucked the water, drew the water down fron the 23 accunulator because this was at a higher pres.ure earlier.

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A

+

s.

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es s

v.

6 but what it does is to condense the steam and cut off ne 7

upward momentum transfer from that steam.

That stuff has 3

to fall according to fairly fundanenta'

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s. 4.e e. n.. 2 n. 4 2 1 2s 4

t .._ c r w.- i a 1.1 w o. 1 4 './. a. +o 1rc'< a*. 4.. 14 In any event, we nave some water oypassing. We ', u '. 4*

ad o ^ v.i m. 's.' y

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o.n .== c ~y ..... ~. ^== 'i

t..=.'s -= *. ^.'.

n a.

o as=u.a. d.i '. '. a. _a n '..i =- '. i._=- v e ~i.7 = '. '.e .-^.--a.... 3 e.a.asu.a. d.' ' '. a. - a r...' =..' y. e <- - n. o e..- . '. - - a. es ". a. yn. .i.r ou..:.o. m-)a : ur 3 y4., .a 4 ..< e e....,+..< a.1 ' ) '.<. =_ v,, nax s'.'de. (.14x..) s. 6 Then that core started to heat uo again and 'or 7 some ceriod o' time, out until around the 32nd mark, the 2 ..... a. r. m u r a. s ro s =. e o -.. i o d a. = '. =. v =.' u a_ _e..."c... .' w a.. '.". a.n * .a. -. o".- d .9 a. .....a.. ...n d-w a. s. 4.'.' s a. a. o -a. w.=. a. - a- ,<..=. w <.. ...y l.- n.,y ce vq).v..u..r e s. n..l.;. .v..:..,... : v.

3.. =- v o " *m

w..a..i a. v a..' ?.

11 1, e day. a. a. s.:, c ^ m....- a. a ". .'...o...'.r P.". _:.. _c ", ' l :.- =. o u..d. ~e.^^ 12 y. 13 to 960 was peak value we saw. 14 Now du..', 5'_c - =...i o d, *. " = ~^ ^ 4 _= -

r.. ', ".'. ~ *. o o

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m. a..n =. x..= - -

a. .c

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= <-

j ;. 1..i s .2 wn.. ye., 2, 2 4. ..=x .,.4..,, .gy...s g

r..s..

-,. s. .0.. 21 last quench, you recall, was at about 40 seconcs in the 22 ni; hest temoerature region. 23 Next, clease. a.- (c.,<se.) .g. ..4.,.. .e a... ..,...._.-m, ..ye.w 3:

u..,. w : ~...,

ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. (202)347-3700

23 =.ca.1n ..-s v~ s

s-i view of tne results we nave already concluded from the 2

earlier tests. 3 VR. LEVINE: The nonnu l e ar s er ies o f tes ts. 4 MR. MC PHEP. SON: Tnat series was reported in a 5 research information letter whien we sent to licensing, and 6 covers some of the most important events.which we feel 7 affect -- h a ve some influence on licensing cuestions. And I S have croken this down into two areas scaling, on nis slidei and nodeling, wnich will be o-ne ne xt slide. 13 Scaling deals with tne way in which we scaled down 11 to the loft side from the large size. '!.odelino oeals witn 12 the correlations that are used in our codes. 13 I an only going to oi:k a couple of examples. In la general, the conclusions hold. There is no difference 15 between the nonnuclear an.d the.uclear results so far as the 16 nonnuclear resu.ts went. 1 tnere are some differences and some tnat are tne . s '. e..a. d.' ".. a..- a. '. - a.. 'S

==~.a. oc.i =-.i u a '. ~, o.i.6.,.-^^.'.a'. ou. d. . ye 17 In scaling, we found One lower plenum voicing was 20 more comclete, as you see, o ut nat One uocer plenun voicing 2I was much less complete. It remained full, as far as we can 22 tell, until the IS-second point when the accumulator came 23 on. .u. a. x +. a.1 4 4. ?. ^ 4 3 25 (Slide.) ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. (202)347-3700

24

: =..,&. 11 gs-on tne cuestion of modeling, a ga in, I just take one 2

example, again, one wnere we did have nc difference oe: ween 3 the nuclear and tne nonnuclear. 4 The succooled blowdown mode' acoears to be very 5 conservative in botn cases, and as a result, the structural 6 loads which we measured on the primary coolant system and on 7 the core were very small, of an orde. of magnitude smaller 3 tnan those credicted by our codes. COMMI55IOciER AHEARNE : When you say moceling 13 incrovements, do you mean these are areas where you n eed 'l imorovements? 12 '4R. MC PHERSON: Where you need them or you could 13 introduce them if you felt it ne c e ss a ry. Structural loads, 14 you might feel it nece.ssary if plants are hurting for 15 costs, on structural costs. 16 COMMISSIO.4ER AHEARNE: In this case, Don, 17 conservatism means it ha opened f aster, or the same thin;, 0.1.s. 0.. ..., s..i,/.

7. n a.

' a. a ^ a.. =..'.- a. .d.i. " >. ' s a. u=_=.n.i ~.n. a.... y 10 MR. MC PHERSON: It coulo ce tnat, or from a 20 structural peint of view, too. 21 CC MMISSIONER AMEARNE : Oh, yes. 22 MR. MC PHERSON: In tne case of improvements, we 23 co n' t know if it is a conservatism or not. In this particular =e., .e.. oy...~.., w o. v.e..a u... =.

e. r w.

..,.4 3 <e = v..y .e. e e. + =... ~a ^5 c a rame te r. I must be modeled :orrect.y to make One water ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. (202)347-3700

.. 3 2.a : o ..s-e s-4.9 ..l a. "#~5. -.# " a. ". *..# ^ ^ 1 *. ^ v^ 'u' I d - a. - e. q }

d.. n. m.

.

a.

" " a. s S u *..#. a. r '^ ..u. v,.. - w u. -s f .as -shasr..f m .f u< s. . d. wo. m.

e. n.

. o..c o. / 2 *. 4./ o. c. ,J.l a. o o. en. .w .n. a. o. 1 a. a. -.. e e. t.1, 4 .N o. v. +., .l o. m e o.. y 5 (511de.) 6 I am going to repeat some of the things that we 7 nave already said, out in words this time. 3 Geing through the onenomenon which occuI red, one 4 to two seconds, we saw an ini-ial temoerature rise in the bu'k . $.o _ 0. 0,w,,y.' o. a- .82.. 1 nay. 3 4,... e. 0 e .w 6s O. ...o. .0 1. .e q 2 r. r.. s. a d.. m

w o.

.- o. e v.i,q 3

6. 3 2..

'1 n a y o. ]} i.q 3,o. . s. a, a l.l 6.. o. as --o w . ~... y y 12 results, that aceut 70 percent of the core sees t h is r.i

a..

'1ha. r a. s '. - = 9. = 4.1 s. o v a. v. a. d. 1.*. ..h a.

.4 1 m. ^ '.

l.'

a y-a. - a ' ' r a.

2 m la water. 15 From the ceriod a to 7 seconds, tnere is ce iling 15 in the downcomer and the lower clenum whicn d.-ives steamwater

hrou-5

."a. .- ^. - a. =..,".. *..' s

r. a " s e e =_. c.~^.' =. '. s.

. < x. u. a. "a e v. -. J ". a. - a. = .7 a..". w.". 4 C.".

i. c-ua. r.... '.. c..

..ha. .s..' ~ ~. a s.. a. m =. =- 2 cy.

0. 6 v'

. ',. ".. ^^wn .o w=.a.. . a. '..- a.. a. ".. a. o. ..--...e. y e... e r. o.... a. y .<3.a .- }4 w 2, ..s. .. -. s -o.. .-...= _=.d .s =- o. e' v a_ - -...,....a. m '. a y =.' n. ..^.a..i s, ..h a. - a. c y. d ^ a. a..d. .l.i m.i. e . v...i o.n ^ '..*. a. cr .... + o.,c o.. = ~. o - o.

r. e.c a.

o v a.. a u. -. n. 3.,....x ea.<..i aa.... ...,J. s nm.4 o c o. z.: e ,, s <. 4..,.

r. e.., ew ca

.4 .w. .<.e, .w3 2 ,.. 4 n,J o. s. = e u..<..a .!.. 4. 2. _..... ,y,.... 4.,..,, - -..

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~6

- ~ I _~

1

2. 4., a. "

h =. - =. u m. *..*.'

.i n. h =. " a. x. s.'.' ~ =.. w a. z =. a.

- =. =.

_C i C. .? c. e. 6. ~M.C. 9 1 (.O.,.'.<4e.) 4 T... a. a cum.ula*.^- i.n j a... 4 o n " a.,.a. n.=... d *".a_...=.'s=.^...=. 5 lower cressure area in the in,)ec t ion coint and drew -he upper clenum water down tnrough the core. 7 Again, this caused a large cortion o' the core to 2 u a..a. c.".. 1 h a. .'.O o '5-sa..-nd g=...' " s a. m..e, _= ~ _= iin '..H. a. ...-a. 1 . n. o.- .r.. a.r _. a. s.

a. -,/ c,,..

. o. g ,.n.. _a _ n .n.. s. .a. ...,_0- .~ ,,,s o. ~. I3 .........,.yo.. .,,u <. m. I1 I was wrong when : said 730 wnen I answere vour 1.7 u a. s i a.. H,=. '. o r a.. T. h. a. w a.. a. _=. o 'w',u" . ". ', u o m m.'.".., A' ' a. a. -

v. a. r..n a. d v,.

~ ^ v. 13 And this is very similar to tne results that we saw in the 14 nonnuclear tests with the core in place. ,ie s aw the very v u s. ' v^ ..n =. v a.i d '.a., .i.n ...a. .^-a.. 1 :s s.=. ~' a. . = 9.. - a,,. =. ".- a. e.i s a. ~ 15 v.i s

4,,s.

.ge ,a._ 1a._mn,. w 2.. oe .w, .=,_1 .w... a. ..i_ i / . _2,J.,., s. .w...a... 12 3

- s =...'.e a-

.i..... a. .'s...4.^.^. . '. '. w "..' - -.. ~. =. ^.. - =. 2: 1:. . m. e. ' _~, ss.,. n, ..., 3 a n.,.,.,o.. n.w.o. s

o. v o..,

. n.. - o...1. e s ... a '. w =.. = "..= - = = d.' n, o.n.. i .z w e. sa.w ".. ~.. -.- u. .?.4 u _i _d .l a v a.' .=.=....-2.- .n =. 22 the core was completely recovered. Next slice? 23 (511de.) ivc-(,-i. . = -,e. . =... . s - .i.., e -,o. .. a -i n... 4 2 . -i. v. e e.- -. x. 2 .2.,.....e n. v. .w. .,,. _ o. e. ., s. ...= +: s -s ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERSr INC, (202)347-3700

a: 2e .... 7. i, ~. a...a.-=.."-a. a.l. n -. n a.

v. a v.' s.

. s'... a.c a.. 4......,~ =. s .a., c -..-v4. ...<.x.. .s n. ..r. 2.. ...u. su._ e. u,,-.. s .w m .y .. ve i a.. w ,.4 ..e ., s.. n......, r o a.,.i n a- . ^. s.a. u *. o ^. w n. .an a > r. a.. v =.1 u s. o ' 9 a 0 v-a.,- a. a..c c. 4 .4 s o. ....^a. -a.u. a. . " *..h a. i 5 the cuench whicn results from the boiling of the lowe r plenu-6 water up through tne core. Then it vo ids a ga in. Then 1: 7 starts to heat up. And then the second quench as a result a .e .g. ,,,.a. ..l a n '. a w s *. a.. '. _= _1.'.i.n -

d. ^. w n h.- o u,- *.

e.*.a.

. o.. a.

7. ". a. n s

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1..

4 x*. o.1 44.. ( e 1'.4 4..) O

f..

12 Tnis is interesting to s ee now our predic-ions ano .-s: our measuremen:s compare. la As Dr. Murley told you, we assumed initial con-15 ditions for our ore-credictions. Coviously, we didn't know 15 exactly wna: they would be -- ne flows, the pressures, the 17 temperatures of :ne em.er;ency core cooling system, the

.a a,.'..

.....-=.. .4 n

a. '..*..'.' s-w."..*-^.

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a

.. c .. - a.. <

p. 3 w.n.<...... s. 4a..<- i

r. w.< o-..u

.1 c. .o .s. aa. w n.'. v,. u w. ^. u.' m".h=va. .' ' v, o u u.= a. d '5a..-ae1 ca.".' 4^ a. 2 .u 22 The OELAP/.: RAP combination, which is one-dimer.sional - s'

M a.

.. =.'.h y d = u.' i. o d a. a-c v- '... o '.. =. w ' *. 5. '. ' a..'.- ^. d e 4, - - a. d..i. '. a. ~. O y. 4 j,7 7. c-

w.

-..k. y1re.. 7 .w. ... -...i..= w...- w.<..,......... <. ' ,y w. c. a.....n ..a..s. - p, n. ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. (202)347-3700

29 .4..:.

:=

m. 1. 0 :. 7

s. o.... e.

=.e.... .... =. y=. .o

c... ~. s.,. <,. e. w 2_...,...

o.. ,o. -. =.s. - a. = s ". a.. " =.' u a. '= 9^0. e.- .o .g .a. 4 _e a^. l.'s' d.=.~.

a. a a-

"..' ".. a.. a. r. a. ...=.-a.. ., a. d.' '. ' a.

a..n. a.

.'.1 n..,.... y ..p. m,. w3_o . q... n.,e.~ 1 c.,:.) u c. 4

1..

.s ~ s..... 5 the initial conditions? 6 MR. MC PHERSO.N In certicular, the het temoera*ure, 7 the hot leg temoerature was cuite a bit Icwer, and that means .-. a. w a s I n. w a.. =*..m a. . u '..' =. ~. o '.

n a.

a

Ma*

a.

=..,- a.. s *. a. a.

.. - ~.. v .1 < e o.s..o -. o. _c _e u o. ....o.. y o_. y s. .io., w.e., .w. 2 . - e. s. 2. ~, w as 2 ,, o. .w. y o _.s

w... 3 1

o .e..ee. n. w a t, .. w2.3 .=.2.4.., .o 1. .v oressure down slightly. r. t y.:- v. : u.o w. 2.. v d a.,. a. a. a-a r a.

v.. '.

1.o ~ o v v.i e : I .1.. si _. A - u 13 talking about? l. ,, R. J, J. enens,a rie orou;nt .t Oown *o 3-0 r.ron 7 vn '. =. sy=... "u- .^-.=.' v.a.l u a. w =.e + - o. .l ow 1 4..' *w 1: 327, x 3.e u ~4 16 about 591. \\. Inen or. too or *na! w e h a, -- . 4 ~a v t _-... : v v, 2, ,,,.,e <... i v a,. r

e v g yy.t.e.

qs i.. _,. ..s .s s l; 4,4.<a1 .,. n.~.<. < g $n a. m.qo.'s 3: <... 's .m m .a. -. a. a. g ?. o y. .a....,., ... e. ..2., ...o.. w o.e .c.a.... u. J.

:.3

. (R..- 1 n 7-( a _. '... - c '. *

a.

la. -.. 3...m a.. a ' u. a. ,. = ".' a. r.. 2 ~~wa - h=. ej y. c, . s. o. -.,'<a,. -nn. .a,. e. 2., 3.4.. -.... ..3, i_ .3. v._o., .2- .30 y .... u,.7 1 =.. =. ' _e a. .=. ~-a - =.'m. a. =".'a. c . _ =.. e..i..,.<.,- .s . -. ' " "-r. =..... a. a..".. "..-...#.~ '2- "..'. w.'.n.w-.'.a... .,..=.u_== ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC, (202)347-3700

2.o

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t........._.-

.a... .s. s y. , e. ....#.2..... --2 .<.n.. .. s u.i. .....e-32 .a s 2 5 aoout 40 degrees down that cr o'< en l e g. And now that we t know it, we know either how to use it in our calcula-lons, 7 or we intend to try to correct it to imp ro ve that value. 5 We are going to do both. 7 4 4 1.o ls; 9 4 $4 15 v4 is 1,i 13 iv 03 el 4.o m ..ea 24 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. (202)347-3700

i 30 1

r1825 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

In your second TRAC, 4 2

ace 3 did v.ou model in that gradient?

iavid 1

i MR. MC PHERSCN:

Yes, that's cor:ect. All the .I 4 initial conditions that we measured were then used in the c* TRAC prediction. l 6 MR. MURLEY: But there were no changes in the 7 physical models of the code at all. They used the same basic 8 code. i 9 MR. MC PHERSCN: Next, please. 10 (Slide.) 11 :l We are going to show you -- we are going to have 12 a video showing now for about three minutes, and this videotape ,i 9 13 ll has on it the conditions of the test site just prior to the J 14 0 3 blowdown and just following the blowdown. You will see i 1 ~5 i three different views; one in the visitors' room, one in l 16 o the control rocm, and one in the containment vessel where the camera is focusing on the cuick cpening blowdown valves. ,o 1 j In the visitors' rocm we have a dsiplay of what d 19.' j'l is happening in the containment. There is a video display, 20 1 what is happening in the control roon. 4 21 ;' We have all the conditions current in the crimarv ,3 i coolant system and in the vessel showing pressures, ,- 1 ' ~ ' ficws. They are all up there being tem.eratures,

o. cwe r o 22 updated every second so ycu can see the progress of the m.-.c.w, wr.ri, i nc.

a

R test as it goes on.

d l n

f 31 I i david 2 4 Saul, did you want to say something? a ,a'( MR. LEVINE: No. ,I Aren' t you going to describe that vugraph? 4' l MR. MC PHERSON: I'm going to cut in the middle i e and come back to this. ~ 6 (Videotape showing.) MR. MC PHERSON: This is the f amous; red 3 button which you will see pushed in a second. Now we are 9 in containment. This is the control rocm and there comes 10 . i. the operator's hand to flick the valve. There is the i 11 < countdown in seconds. 12 When he flicks the valve, an arming valve will 13 5 open and you will hear an air release. That sets the 1 14 i f other, the quick opening blowdown valve to release 10 .l 15 1 seconds later. That's the air valve opening. Now in 16 ' 10 seconds you will see a shutter. The camera is on the o i suppression tank, and it moves because of the leads. I o 13 j There, the loads on the tank are causing the 19 camera to move. You hear a higher pitched squeal now '- he i

0' steam rises, passes through the quick opening olowdown

,7 ' 4 valves. ,, h "h Initially it's a low quality water steam flow. h "1 31 6 Thi_ is in the control roca just as th e tes t gces off, and there's the flashinc beginning of the various scrams,.thich 2+fCtra' 4 9CCf ttfl. inc. ; M.. i alert the operators norrally. Their reactivities to i 1 1

i s. I ! avid 3 scrams, 1_a pressure, low flow. Now, here are conditions just before the test, ~ the pressure in the vessel, the peak clad temperature. You 4 wl.,., see that suucen.,y drop at a time zero, a-e' That's down to 800; peak clad temperature is 6 rising. I think I saw it up to about 8 60 there. It dropped 7' down again to the 600's and back up to the 800's. It's 3 down at 648 there. You can hear the high pitched squeal of e'q the steam now, so we're at -- near the end of the blowdown. 10 I So we're down now to -- it's 560. i 11 There are many other conditions on a very large 12 canel which show the whole setup including the emerc.encv. f i 13 ] core cooling. This is the energency core cooling i 1.1 :I coming in here. There was a little jubilation at the time. 1 ~e 1 Just at the end of this I will cut it and 16 ' describe what's cominc. u_e in a second. i MR. LEVINE: I think Den should say that the 12 i . lowdown noise you hearc rrem t,e containment is recorce: at c n ly very low volume. It's really very much louder. 'O MR. AC PHERSON: Here is -- we're just pointing ?1 out the comparison between some predicted core predictions J, ] which were up en the scope and the measured values as they ~~ occurred. They are printed right out en 2he secpe. 24 ,..ecn n ecenm. wa. ; Now, if I can ",ust see the last slide up on the 6 t J screen, I want to describe what is going to be shown next. i i I i1

33 i h 1J david 4 (Slide.) 2 You will see that temperatures progressing ~ through time as measured on a hottest rod. It's really 4 a composite from the two or three hottest rods which are 5 symmetrically located so they all behave the same. So, 6 it's essentially the same. Consider it one rod. 7< i And these temperatures are indicated to the a right, and the height of the rod upwards. So, this is the ~ bottcm of the rod, the bottom of the core, the top of the 10 core. l 11 The dots indicate actual temperature measurements '2 on the rod and the predictions are from the RELAP/FRAP ,3, d calculation. They start out at about the same value, and s 't j thev rise together, but the prediction continues to rise to 1 1 15 I' a higher value. 15 The measurements stop at a lower value, and you will see first a quench from belcw. Remember that froth that 1 4: '~3 rises _uo.through the core. 19 i a MR. LEVINE : They will move in sequence back 'O u.c u_u. e., a_ _c _. as MR. MC PEERSON: Yes, they will all come back, l ="A 'b en thcv. will start to rise ac.ain after the core emeties, '~ and then they will drop again, but new fromthe top in I secuence as the unter clenum water ccmes down throuch. c..;.c. w a.co nen,inc., -c ~~ They will rise again to very low values, and then i i i i

34 i l 1 ol david 5 6 you will see a final quench as the water from the lower i 2 0:enum re:locc,s t,e core. n I ~ Okay, we can show that now. 4-t (Viceotape showing.) t 1 5' MR. MC PHERSON: This is time in seconde. See 6' i them coming back at the seven seconds when the 1 7I' accumulator comes on? I'm sorry, when the boiling appears in the a . lower plenum. There's a noisy thermocouple here. o'a 17 accumulators on it. At 30 seconds now, and I l*'l s, the accumulator, the lower cienum is startine_ to fill. Now 1 11 ' comes the final quench as the water rises up through the 12 i core. 13 l (End videotace.) l I ld m c g c0MM S o. ICg. R a,... Ru..s: , lour coc.e itsel.g did it A ac nsa g .I 1 ~5,' predict that it would stay out there with no =ction at all, 16 7 with no cycling, or is the code on just the initial rods? 1,/ MR. MC PHERSCN: On the hot rods the tem,cerature a, 18 was predicted to stay quite high, yes. We saw initially 19 1 there's not much change with time. 'O ' On the cooler rods, the periperhals, we have ,i, ,1 ;I p a prediction which indicated this first cuench and then a I ,, i .. a o rise to a =cderate value, but we did not predict all the e "l spikes, especially the quench frc= the upper plenum water ,, i i 4* Cassinc 2.,,eer i n :ormt m, - - throuch the core. ~~. We did predic: a flow reversal at that time, but t I il

35 I david 6 1h it wasn't adequate to predict sufficient to cause a e ,I quench in our calculation. e 1 3I MR. LEVINE: The TRAC code showed the initial a rise of water steam from the downcomer and lower 1 5 plenum up through the core, but it didn't show very i t 6 much cooling from that. 1 7! And that may have to do with the rewet i 3 correlation. We're still looking at thac. I think Don has J 't 913 just one more slice. 10 MR. MC PHERSON: Yes, we have a conclusion slide. II (Slide.) 12 All the emerc.ency core coolinc. systems worked 13 as they were required to, and they cooled the core. The t I4 final TRAC predictions of the peak clad temperature using i 13 l the initial conditions, the correct initial conditions -- 16 and that is a very important point -- were about 130 degrees a l,e above the measured value. IS g Scw, there is still rccm for some change there. i ), '! 7 -! Our codes were not yet completely matured. Our understanding i 1 ,0.. of what went on in this test is not comclete. i We have a 21 i not analyzed all of the data, and of course we have many --j cther tests to de which might alter that conclusion. It ..a J should be kept in T.ind, scme caveats here, that there has 24 _ One data. ceen enay a preliminary analysis c: i yet 63J ec er al A fDorters, IPC..

C i

This test was run at a specific pcwer which is only 1 ,N, 5

36 l 1 4 I david 7 two-thirds that in the large power. reactors, o 2 And we may have some surprises ccme up when h 1 ,J we get to the full or higher powers. 4' There are several parameters in LOFT which are i l 5' carefully scaled, but there are some important ones which are i 6 "; not -- i 7 I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What do you mean by 3' " carefully scaled" and "not carefully scaled"? 9' MR. MC PHERSCN: Are carefully; most parameters 10 [ are carefully scaled. 11 ' MR. LEVINE: Volume to mass are the two ratios. 12 l MR. MC PHERSON: Are which ones, temperatures-4 13 1 oressures? i l 14 : MR. LEVINE: What is scale? i 1 '5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What do you mean by i. 16 "carefullv . scaled" or "not carefully scaled"? MR. MC PHERSCN: Oh, the surf ace to volume ratio, 13 for example, is a very important paramerer. If it is that J 19 you don't have the same value, then you tend to put more '0 ' heat into the coolant than you would in the large reactor. 0

1 !I

1 That is typical on a small scale model, but in this case

,,d, l we modeled the three unbroken loops by one loop. '3 1! ~ n That means we have larger pipes so that the o J' 24 surface to volume ratio is verv close to that of a large a Sectf 31 A GDQf tert, I FC, -c i reactor. The resista.7ce in the in tact loop and the resistance .i 'i 4 il

37 i i l' david 3 q in the broken loop have an effect on the flow, and if you t 2: get them modeled correctly, you have the same flow rates i , J' passing through as you would in the large reactor. ~ The lower plenum, if you could have the same l l volume to coolant ratio as in the large reactor -- and 6' that was our principal objective -- then you would expect 7 the same coolant behavior relationship at the same rate of i 8 ll change. 9 i This is probably the basic modeling or scaling 10 g philosophy used in LOFT and in semi-scale, its small 11 i countercart. t I i 12 i We tried to make the volume to power ratio i 13 identical so Jaat the amount of neat going into that l 'a h coolant at any given time was at the same rate so that the i 15 ' temperature of the coolant would be rising or flashing, 16 ' chancing to steam at the same rate it would in a larce I u 17 L.! reactor. 'In 'S We made the resistances the same so that the .d 19 :I flow rates should be the same. We make most elevations

0 identical so any gravity effects are accounted for, and the 21 one crinci. cal one which we could nct model because when vou i

,, 4 "h shrink the core down to a small scale, you have got a length li '31 i problem. You make it much shorcer. 1 24"! The one problem was that we do have -- the principal 3-eecers. A eDor*ers, IPC. 3 -c. '~[a problem, we have this 5-1/2 foot core rather than 12 foot 'l t

1

' }. 38 l, I favid9 core. And many of the results I have described to you O, todav I cannot a.c.olv. directiv. to sav this would ha.c.cen in l l 6 +g large -- in a large reactor simply because I cannot say that r c" you would get that quenching that we

saw, that good t

6i quenching up through the core if the core were 12 feet 7,. long. m COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: What is the basic scaling, 9 l if you were to comoare LOFT with a thousand megawatt 10 )i reactor? 11l MR. MC PHERSON: On a power basis, it's about 60 -- l 60 to 1. On a length basis, it's about 5 to 1. The core is about a fifth of the' diameter of a d la l, large size core. The diameter of the whole pressure t ,". I vessel is about a fif th. The height is the same. l~', MR. MURLEY: Wouldn't you say, since this is mainly a thermal hydraulic experinent. We tend to think that the o 2 '~ q scaling parameter that is most relevant is the dimensicnal t 17 one of 1 to 5 and not the 1 to 60 scale. 'O MR. MC PHERSON: In any event, it should be pointed 2I out that this is normal engineering practice. One scales .I ships and planes COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: If you're scaling everything, wP aculdn't you wan shorter fuel rods? ..:x min.x em. ire., me" '~ MR. MC PHERSCN: the reflood phenomenon is length a 'i

i 39 I avid 10 dependent, very much so. You're bringing up water through n , p; fuel at a given temperature. Now, if it's onlv. 5-1/2 feet long, the fuel at 4 >l the top has a longer time to heat up before the coolant 5 reaches it if it's a long core thar it does if it's a 6l short core. i 7 MR. LEVINE: That 's why we ' re trying to do -- we ' re i 8 planning now future tests in the NRU reactor in 9, Canada which would use full length fuel rods, not a full core, 10 but a bundle, to test behavior under reflood conditions. 11 ' COM>fISSIONER GILINSKY: Isn't one of the problems 12 ' that we don't know how the thing scales and we're trying 13, to check out to find some notion as to wha: significant scaline i i 1.1 parameters are? __ _ _.. ~ ~ - 15 .,3..yg a.t,rasv-s.g : There are certain aspects that we don ' t y 16 !- have crecise knowledge of, and those were pointed out in

t l

this ver" exn.eriement. We don' t have.crecise knowledc.e of 1 il 18 ' the motion in the licuid within the pressure vessel while u 'l 19:' the core in in there generating heat. i 70 t And we don't have the cross flows, a good 1 21 i knowledge of those. COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: This ought to help us "l get an idea of how the thing does scale compared with smaller I 74 " ex= er:.ements. .c. 5,eer, a.ecrms. me. : - c .9, '~ MR. MC PEERSCN: Yes, that's one of its purposes.

40 I davidl1 Ih COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What kind of a schedule i 2 do you have for these other tests that you talked about? ,I MR. MC PHERSON: We expect to have a test i 4 j approximately every three to four months. This particular i 5 series proceeds until the end -- until the beginning of 6l 1981. I I 7 1 We have other series in mind which wil.'. begin i 1 3 subsequently. We will be looking at hot leg breaks, r o >; small and intermediate size cold leg breaks, alternate 10 emergency core cooling systems. 11 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Was this series of tests 12 designed -- I notice to a large extent they are numerically -- 1 I3 you ' re going to run them in the same order '- (Inaudible) l I Are you rethinking the tests based upon the i 15 ' results of this to see whether or not there chould be scme i i 16 ' readjustment or redesign, particularly when you get down u a 17 "1 into -- (Inaudible.) 4 l ' ". I MR. MC PHERSON: Yes, we are, sir. d 19 MR. LEVINE: I think we will have to be very

0' cautious about every time we complete one test to look at 21 what should really be the next test.

Ncw, some of this ,, 3 "s would be determined by the ability toprecalculate 1 1 23 in time, and things like that. It's a fairly 24,' complicated situation. Aeoortus, i.*c. q'

m.,cca

'S I also think the time between tests will de, end to c

i t 41 I 1 7 davidl2 some extent on what happens to the fuel. In this test o ,t* there was no indication of even a leakage from the fuel , I d rods. There was no iodine measured in the coolant. As ~ 4 we. go to higher power densities, there may be some damage 5 which will take somewhat -- (Inaudible.) I 6' MR. MC PHERSON: Through the tests we have 7 performed red drop tests and criticality tests which indicate o the core is identical to its physical form before the . i, 9 tests. 10 The one last caveat that is on the screen I should 11 mention, although Mr. Levine has pointed out since LOFT 12 is not a full scale reactor, a better understanding of full 13 ' scale reactors will require more experimental work and 14 ' more advanced code development, and of course you are 15 getting right at it he:Je. 16 We have to do more with LOFT and more with the other supporting tests, such as the NRU. I i 18 'l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Roger Mattson had a cctment to I i 19 i make, and I would like to hear from him now. 'O MR. MA7TSON: Well, we felt one of the questions 71 1 that would naturallv arise in the course of this for NRR was ,, d the significance to the licensing of nuclear power plants. i We don't see a need at this point to take licensing action I 24 co mecera' R ecor*ers, lec. based on the results of this tes t,in their preliminary at, " I state at least, and we're folicwing closely the continuing 1 a 1a

p 42 l-l 'l vidl3 h

analysis, a

2' In fact, we will be involved in some of it. ,I ~ i Two things that we think are encoura?ng;frem test, 4> the emergency core cooling system behaved as it was supposed c' to behave. It came on, and it cooled the core. And the i 6i core was cooled much faster and at lower temperatures i 7 flI than was predicted. o The second TRAC run I just saw for the first time 9 this morning, the one that comes within 130 degrees. I think 10 that's quite good. 11, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's much more encouraging 12 i than the initial condition runs, I must say. 13 !! MR. MATTSON: Yes. I think if we were to find li,1 l ~' u c out that overall our best estimate was within 130 degrees a 15 or equivalent numbers on all parameters, we would consider i 16 ' this a very successful test. l l l A couple phencmena tha t crobably acccunt for 1: 0 some or that difference are yet to be explored: the a 19,i stopping of water from the upper plenum back to the core 1! 20 as a second quench in a three quench series. I don't believe 71 it's in the current predictive techniques, and it may very ,, J, ^^J well be that that upper plenum water is a figment of this i 4J l particular test. i I ,t e-i At our higher pcwer densities it may not be there, 3 FeCff 3. #DC ritri, i t*C. g

CI and we will be following that closely.

i o

i t 43 t I l li david 14 Overall, we would call it an encouraging

o 2

test result. i l 9 ~l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I guess I would like to 'l 4 just make a comment on that. The point that you made at 5 the end is one certainly I think that we ought to keep in 6' mind; that is, that some of these results were results j 1 7 that wehe not really sure yet of how to interpret them, 3 and so te level of encouracement that one receives from n 9 it, I think, ought to be taken with some caution. 10 When you have a reasonably complicated computer 11 code and you have now done a test to verify it, when the 12 experiment shows some aspect that you didn't expect, that 13 ij means that you ought to be cautious upon then drawing 14 i what conclusions you could reach about gpplying it to other 15 ! systems. 16 ' MR. LEVINE: I'd like to say just -- i 17 i MR. MATTSON: Could I rescond to that, Saul, for le, ' h Just a second. 19 ' In NRR we agree with you totally, Commissioner 20 Ahearne. In fact, that's what happens with other tests that I 'l h are ongoing dailv for the research program and in he 1 "j nuclear industry. e '3 l'.i The two loop test apparatus at General Electric, 2s the semiscale test apparatus at Idaho, and other s Feceral A eocrters, Inc. or tests around the country; really, there are two scales that d I

i Il 1U davidl5 we have to appreciate here. One is a macroscopic scale, 4 , i' 'L the sort of scale that we operate on with licensing codes a ,.i ~i of the sort of the evaluation models under Appendix K of 3 the Commission regulations; and then these microscopic i 5 .l codes like TRAC which are trying to predict point 0 6 phenomena within a very complex machine undergoing a i 7i, very complex transient. a And we have to compare the overall effects 9 with these microscopic effects and understand hcw they 10 feed back one on the other. t o 11 ' And that's something that takes scme time and 12 takes a lot of computer runs and a lot of detailed study, 13 and that has to co on vet before we can make sweepinc 14 conclusions about this test, most certainly, h 15 MR. LEVINE: I would just like to add one word, 16 ' Cc=missioner Ahearne. You use a word that triggered some o ,i sensitivity in me, and that is that this test was run to l*a o . the TF.AC codes. There's no one test that will verifv. verify Ic i ~ any of these codes. This is just one of a large number. 'O There's a big program. 71 ' i COM.'!ISSIONER AHEAPSE : Yes. i 39"q ev 3 4 ,, o

a. w d

24 l ceJeceral Aeoor*ers, Inc. j 25 1

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right. Time runs on, and if I i 2 h there are not other pressing comments, I would simply note tha: 9

I'l 3

in order for this test to have been run, there was an awful lot i 4l of equipment that had to be put in place and then, finally, once 1 5i it was all in place, whv., an awful lot of machinery had to work, i 6l valves had to open and close and do other things that valves do, I I 7l and all kinds of electrical comoonents stoo, start, go sideways I 8 and so on. It's a very complex system. Getting it to operation l I i 9 has been a long and, at many points because of some of the 10 redesign aspects that have gone on in the history of the project, I.1 i. 11 ' an agonizing process. I 12 ' I think we owe the research staff and the Idaho staff, i 13 elI the contractor staff, i vote of thanks for now, since -- in the lj 14 h laat three years, really driving this project forward to a suc-h .i 15 cessful state. And by " successful," I mean the valves that had i 16 to open and close, to make this test a.useful one, opened and Iq 17 l closed them. d 1 18.' The meaning of the data which has been accumulated d a 19 ultimatelv. for licensinc. ou rpo s es, that remains to be seen ou 20 ' in the future as a result of very detailed and carefully con-21, sidered reviews and calculations and so on. 1 i a y, Su clearly, tne test is success:ul in .ne sense t.na: I h i 23 ' the data was obtained, that the things that worked had to wcrk 'i I 24 in crder that the data can be gotten, did work. And fcr that, I _T Eedt*0' AfDorttr$. Inc. I 25 j am considerably thankful, since we will now be able to go early

1 il J

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ov2 i 46 l I 1l next year. And as I am sure we will be asked, we are asked, "Is i. 2e LOFT, is this experiment worth it," why, I will feel rather =cre 1 i 3, comrortable in making the affirmative answer which I will make n 0 4 at that time. 5! COM.MISSIONER A*4EARNE : Yes. I would like to echo that 6' if I could. As you mentioned in the beginning about the success. I 7; and failure, I think program managers have a corollary: That I a, is, if it goes well, they seldom get much praise; but if it 9 coes badiv., the.v certainly cet a lot o f heat. So, certainiv, 10 all of you deserve a lot of good words on behc'.f of us for hav-11 ing carried this off, particularly given the problems that were 12 inherent in the orogram for so many v. ears. i 13 ! Very good. Thank you. 14 6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Very good. Thank you very much. 15 (Whereupon, at 10:45 a.m., the hearing in ~~ end=4 16 the above-entitled matter was idjourded'.F ~ -~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ - - - ' ' ^ ~ 17 1 l <l 18 1 i 19 20 i 99

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