ML19253A557
| ML19253A557 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/03/1979 |
| From: | Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7909100309 | |
| Download: ML19253A557 (69) | |
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IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING SCDGET PRESEN ATIcy
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This is an une' 'cial transcript c'f a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Co=missicn held on Friday, 3 August 1979 in the Commissions's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., Washington, D. C.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general inferr.2tional purposes.
as provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argn=ent contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3'
l PUBLIC MEETING BUDGET PRESENTATION 5
6 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N.
W.
7j Washington, D.
C.
S' Friday, 3 August 1979 9
The Commission met, pursuant to not! -
at 9 40 a.m.
10 BEFORE:
II DR. JOSEPE M. HENDRIE, Chairman 12' VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 13 '
RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commissioner 14 l JOHN F. AHEARNE, Ccmmissioner 15 '
ALSO PRESENT:
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16 Messrs. Barry, Gossick, Fraley, an6 Bickwit.
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CHAIRMAN HENDR!E:
If we will come to order.
2 The elite central committee of the commission meets 3
this morning.
4 (Laughter.)
5 CH AIRMAN HENDRIE: I think we more than make up in 6
quality what we may lack in quantity -- meets this morning 7
to continue budget discussions; in particular, discussion 8
o f the proposed budgets for the commiss ion o f fices -
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. Firs t o f all, let me s ee if I can figure out whether 10 we need, since this is simply taking up in open session 11 a meeting which was scheduled, which I'd planned to have 12 yesterday, or even Mednesday, on the formal schedule, I 13 do not belle ve that we require a short notice meeting vcte.
14 And, in fact, we could not take and would not ve to take 15 one until the next commissioner shows up, to be gree ted as 16 he,came through the door with an order to vote aye.
17 If we were to go on to a mark-up session, which 18 would start a series of closed meetings on the budget, th er.
19
- 4e would have to vote to cles e.
20 Howe ve r, I don't propose to do that this morning, 21 for a' variety of reasons.
One of them is that de have 22 scme commissioners missing. The main one is that I need the 23 weeke ed to sit down and cross-cut the whole oudget oefore we n
24 sit down and come to look at it as a whole.
25 So I don't see any need to deal with closing the d a.n u
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11 simoly keep that 2
COC4ISSIONER AHEARNE: Jihen will we get to the first
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3 mark-up?
4 MR. d A RRY : It would be if you're not going to do 5
it this af te rnoon.
CHAIR:4AN HENDRIE: Monda y mo rn ing.
7 MR. S A RRY : Monday morning at 9 : 30.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: No w, le t's s ee.
I.think we're 9
all he re Monday morning.
Dick and Vic will be in later.
10 P e t e r i s not 1.e r e th is mo rn ing, but I talked to him.
So I JI told him that these were not final decisions and he's willing 12 to give us the go ahead and get the commission office 13 presentations.
14 CO MMISSIONER AREARNE: Len,.will you be providing 15 anything for that Monday meeting?
16 MR. SARRY: Yes.
I do have a recap which includes 17 the set-asides and the ECO/3RG, all on one page.
13 CHAIRMAN HE:IDRIE: Let me see what that l oo ks like.
19 MR. SARRY: That's tne clos est we could ccme to 20 what the total magnitude o1 the thing is at this t ima because 21 even though we've had reclamas and so on --
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Now the current estimate that 23 yo u' ve l ist ed. he're is that as the conf erence commi ttee?
24 MR. 3A RRY: No, it is not.
This numcer goes way 25 cack to what the staff tho ug h t.
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COMMISSIONER AHRARNE : Is it po ss ible to give us 2
a current es timate, the a porocri3 tion s commi tt ee ?
3 I reali:e that you may not be aole to do it by 4
o ffice, but you can do it by total.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Sased on the 360.
6 MR. SARRY: I can give you my best guess.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: On how that will break out. Break 8
it out into people and program support.
That is, you know, 9
the nominal office total is s57 million for NRR, whatever it 10 is.
You know, you've got to go through there and sort out 11 what the salaries, the bene fits, the travel, and so on, 12 the others things in there.
13 MR. BARRY: It's meaningless to you in terms of a 14 budget review.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: In terms of sort of what program 16 do we want and what resources do we have to do the program.
17 You decide how many people and what contract support and 13 then you have to provide the salaries to get to a total dollar 19 fiaure and so on.
20 MR. 3A RRY: I do have tnat done, but I have not made 21 copies and I have it on another piece of paper f or a dif ferent 22 reason.
So I'll have to give you that column.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE : That will be fine.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Give us that column.
23 MR. 3ARRY: I could have that f or you cown he re today a e, e un 77)MD]~YlGn[
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2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Great.
3 CO MMISSIONER AMEARNE : Do you have another copy of 4
this?
5 MR. SARRY: Certainly.
I might say while we're 6
pondering this that the magnitude of the dollar increase 7
cetween the '80 baseline, which in total will be $363.3 and 8
the dollar total we see here at the bo ttom of '81, wn ich is 9
for SS6,752, the arithmetic says it's about 5123 m ill ion.
10 So that's about what the magnitude is.
11 No w we c a n, of course, increase the '80 bas eline 12 however we come out on the supplemental.
That makes that a 13 smaller number, and so on.
And 1 people it's go ing to run --
14 well, depending on what you count and what you don't count, 15 somewhere in the neighborhoed of 600 some odd temps down to 16 about 350.
17 So when I put. this column in '80 that you ask for, 13 you'll be able to see it.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The simplest way I can see to get 20 this do n into some kind of reasonable shape would be to w
21 scratch the requests and go forward with the set-asides.
22 (Laughter.)
23 CHAIRMAN HENDATE: it's crude.
24 C0 "MI S5IONER AMEARNE : But it's the right numcer.
25 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE: de ll, for ano ther day.
For today,
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that gets us.
Let's s ta rt out --
3 MR. S A RRY :
I would sugge st the simplest procedure 4
to work frca is the le tter I sent t o yo u, the memo, with th e 5
attachment whicn synthesized the commiss ion o f fices.
It had 6
an a ttachment on the re, two attachments, one on the offices 7
whe re there was a request for increased resources made and 8
a second attachment which gives you the whole picture in terms 9
of both people and dollars.
10 Again, as in the EDO offices, the dollar magnitude,
.11 in my judgment, presents no proolem.
It's actually a reduction 12 over the '80 level.
We are really paring down program suppor t 13 in the commission staf f offices. And the questien at hand is 14 really the, debate over increasing people.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why is the program support down 16
'h:t far, as a matter of minor curiosity?
17 MR. SARRY: We've seen over the past two years the 15 program supcort we've had in the budget was no t, in f act, 19 needed to that extent.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That primarily looks like 21 SECY and ACRS.
22 VR. SARRY: Yes.
Part of it was. SECY, as you recall, 23 had been doing a sucstantial amount. More and more cf it is 24 being done by Mr. Sesaw in a dm in.
25 So that ccmes dean sucstantially.
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reasons.
2 And we've pared down e veryone.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I see.
And the ACRS reduction, 4
one of the main reasons was that a decision not to use 5
contractor grants on the ACR$ fellowships.
6 MR. SA RRY : At one time wnen we were planning as to 7
how to finance the fellows, tnere were several ways that.you 3
could go.
9 CO MMISSIONER AHE ARNd : I see. But instead, they're i
being f nanced out of personnel.
10 11 MR. BARRY: Out of personnel and benefits.
12 COMMISSIciiER AMEARNE: It's not rea lly reduction to 13 the agency, but it's a shift.
14 MR. BA RRY: It is not.
It's a chage in financial 15 method.
At one time we tho ught that we might issue contracts 16 to universities.
And we pay the university and they would 17 in turn pay the individuals.
19 So you take the program support money instead of 19
- rsonnel mone y.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I do n' t rememoer now the details.
21 Sut for a while there, it didn't icek as though the assembled 22 might of cther federal government was capable of finding a 23 satisfactory method of paying 7 or 3 peccle.
24 All rignt, now --
25 MR. SARRY: It's a que stion o f people.
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CHAIRMAN HENORIE: As to people, I'll make the 2
presentation on behalf of tne comissioner's o ffices and I'm proud to say that we>:e holding the line.
(Lau hter.)
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why the rest of you can't do as 6
well, I really don't understand.
Right?
7 MR. BARRY: Your secretary is also holding the line, 3
so he gets a little bit of f avorable publicity.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. Even better than that, he#5 10 reducing his dollars.
11 COMMISSIONER AEE ARNE: Sut he gets 10 percent of the 12 reduction, doesn't he?
13 (L augh t er. )
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Good thinking.
ACRS -- now I
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15 have a paper on that.
Ray, da you want to come up and join 16 the party?
17 MR. SARRY: As you look at your oeople, let me a dd 13 in tre ACES pa ragraph, and let ne make just a coucle of 10 comments and let Ray address the issues he sees.
The ACRS 20 indica tes th t they need 42 man-years of e ff ort of their 21 sta f f to do their job.
And tney, in fact, have 39 full-time 22 pe rmanents on board now and two temps.
23 CO MMISSIONER AHEARNE : 37.
24 MR. BARRY: I'm so rry.
37 and 2 temps.
In that 25 42 man-years, what they need is they need la direct T.a n-y e a r s I
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in the engin eering end t echnical people end 29 su? cort.
2 The po int is that they ind ic a t e that they need it 3
no d.
Thi s i s not the first time that they've come up with 4
this reouirement.
5 So what tney're saying is that they really are 6
living short-handed toda y.
The two temps, of course, are 7
there, and they're working.
It's just that they're temps 8
and they vant pe rma n en t s.
And
.a t problem becomes --
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Are those part of the 146?
10 MR. B A RRY : Those are part of the 156.
.11 CohMISSIONER AHEARNE: 46.
12 MR. S A RRY :
I'm sorry. 46 now," yes.
They're 13 includec in there.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So if we dec ided --
15 MR. FRALEY: The re's a little conf usion.
When we 16 submitted this, we have three temporary people in the office.
17 Two of them have been there for three years and those were 18 the two that we were requesting to convert.
When Mr.
19 Conoghue came up, he includ ed all thr ee temp or ar ie s.
That 20 third temporary we're handling on a year-by year casis.
We 21 did not originally reouest t h e r., but we would certainly agree 22 that it would be acpropriate bec ause se have had th a t 23 position for several years now.
It's just that the encumcent 24 has not been in it for very long.
25 The other two encumcents have ceen in place fo r a' j i. u.
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three years.
2 So we would like t convert three tempor ary po s i t io ns 3
rather than two indicated here. That's cunsisent witn what 4
Donoghue told you.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That would make 43.
6 MR. FRALEY: 43.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: As an o ffice req uest, it would 3
be plus d, then, and 43.
9 No w the 3, then --
10 MR. SARRY: The 3 is the issue.
.11 CHAIR. MAN HENDRIE: In the 146.
12 MR. SARRY: I'm so rry.
The 3 is in the 146. And 13 he re before toda y --
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We will deal with those, I think, 15 on an overall casis and we will see what we think e ought 16 to do.
17 I'm going to agree with the direction that you want IS to take on tha t.
It has come up each year fcr a numoer of 19 years. Each year representations are made.
Each ye.'r they 20 get thrown cack out and this prcoaoly turns out to be, as 21 everY year does, to have peculiar reasons why it would be 22 convenient not to push tco hard this year.
Sut next year, 23 there will be another set of reasons shy one shouldn' push 24 too ha rd.
25 I think we ought to make a drive for it.
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always the peril that I succose that we could end uo los ing 2
the permission to have 146, or whatever, temooreries.
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think the agency, in fact, would be crippled.
4 CO MMISS IONER AHE ARNE : I think that's very slim.
5 CSAIRMAN HE:IDRIE: If tnat ha coe ned to us, I guess 6
I would go o ff to see tne o versi;h cr.e irm.an and inf o rm him,
7 in my judgment, that the agency was now incapable of carrying 8
out it s miss ion in full degree.
And if th at's okay with 9
'erybcdy, why, I guess we'll do what our hosts prescribe us 10 to do as best we can.
.11 We ll, now, so we're really talking, as I was about 12 to go of f, we're really talking about three spaces.
That is, 13 the three additional spaces.
14 MR. FR ALEY : The three prof e ssionals, right?
15 And we -- I think we've used since the budgeting 16 proce ss began, three or four different workload estimates, 17 soma of which have been presented to you in the past several 13 days, and each of these turns out to ind ic ate that we need 19 about la pro f e ssionals to-supcort the direct caseload.
20 It ranges f rom 13.43 up to 14.96, us ing the labor 21 rates. that existed at the beginning of the year.
22 I think that fails to take into account some of the 23 things that we've learned recently. Number one, that p rocably, 24 the scope of the safety rev'3w is go ing to have to be 25 expandad somewnat and considereoly more a t te n t io n is oc ing to m
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have to be paid to operating experience, and the evaluation 2
of this exoerience for precursors, and wnat have you.
3 de/ve requested two of these positions to really 4
evaluate the material that is turned out cy tne acerating 5
reactors.
6 (At I C : CO, Co mmissioner Ke nnedy en te rs the room. )
7 MR. FRALEY: de're barel y able to k eep up with that 3
now.
There are about 70 reactors on the line, and as I said, 9
the varicus workload estimates predict that they will be 10 increasing to varying degrees.
But they will be increasing 11 over the next two years.
12 I think it's clear that you need some dedicated 13 manpower to evaluate that kind of information.
That's the 14 stuff that traditionally gets set aside because of the other
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15 scheduled ac tivities -- construction permits, the operating 16 licenses.
And there is a tendency to do that even in the 17 committee's office.
13 I think we will need two people to handle that and 19 make sure th a t thct material is orought to the co mmit t ee's 20 a tt ent ion in a t imely ma nne r, yo u k n o.v. with specific 21 recommendations about its impact.
22 The third pos it ion would be to help the co mittee 23 write things like One sa f ety re search reco rt.
As you're 4
aware, the scope and timing of tnat report -- tne scope was 25 expanded considerably this year, bo th to get it into the m G}. O r, n ui
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2 C0. 01.12 14 gsh budge t ing proc ess -- we we re ask ed to excedite it, to make 2
it available earlier in the budgeting pr) cess.
3 Congre ssman Udall's concitt ee. in neir au horization 4
their report on the authorization ac t, expanded the scope 5
of it to include things like priorities, inpact on tne 6
regulatory p rogram, and what have you.
7 The LER analysis that the committee is doing was S
laid on us last year.
Re c e n tl y, we've gotten another letter 9
from Congressman Udall, which I think yove go t copies of, 10 asking that the scope of t: tat report be expanded a little bit.
11 We thought we were going to get it out within th.e nex* month 12 or two, and we'll prooably be able to do that, but some 13 additional work will. be require d to comply with this request.
14 So I think that those three people clearly are 15 needed to bandle this kind of thing.
I think, genera lly, tha t 16 the comptroller, if you'll. turn to page 3 of our handout, 17 where we've made specific nanpower estimates, the no7ograph 18 tha t he us e s -- do you ha ve a cocy of this?
19 Does anybody need it?
20 CHAIRMAN HE:lDRIE: Okay.
/
21 MR. FRALEY: Coes everycody else.have one?
I mean, 4
22 in each case, when he has taken a l ook a t the workload volume 23 and the labor rates, his numcers have, in fact, ccme out a 24 L Lt t is-higne r than ours.
And I think Onese labor rates are 25 ac tua lly low, based on our recen: experience.
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Now list year we were told oy the comm iss ion, and 2
I think rightf ully so, tnat we ought to try to g't more 3
manpower out of the f ellows.
And if you'll turn to page 4,
4 you'll see that we have about 14.5, or 14.6, nan-years 5
assigned to the f ellows, which I think is really unrealistic.
6 CO Ml4I SS IO.lER XE?INEDY : Actually, how many f _ llows 7
are there?
8 MR. FR ALEY : Me have 10 aboard now.
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10 COW 4ISSIONER KE?CiEDY : Located where?
1(*C MR. FRALEY: I think all but one are located here 12 in Washington.
13 Number ona, because of some of the restrictions, s
14 yo u kno w, on recruitin and assignment of these paeple af ter 15 a yeJr's very ac tive recruitlng, we've been able to ccme up 16 with II, not 14 I think we agreed last year that you can't 17 count them one for one, and I tnink tnat's quite clear.
The y IS need a lot of technical supervision, a lot of guidance, a 19 lot of orientation.
20 We are going to try to get some support from them 21 in the assessment of operating experience.
Bu t I think it's 22 clear that in that area you do need an experienced engineer.
23 I think people like Michelson and Epler f rom uak R idg e, and 24 what have you, can really lack at operating experience and 25 recognize precursors have to have experience.
You can't do M
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that with a new engineer, pernaps r.ct even a nuclear engineer.
2 And in a ddition, in 1981, the !! f ellows that we nave accard J
this year will be terminating their two-year assignments.
4 So we'll be bringing aboard a new batch. There will de gacs.
5 et ce tera.
6 So I think, in fact, the re's no way we're going to 7
get 14.5 man-years' worth out of the f e llows.
3 I f you'll look at -the o ther le vel 2 e f f ort. it 9
indica te s !.91 man-years are -n eeded.
Na hasen't requested 10 anybcdy there. ' ele've sugges t e-d we'll try to get this out of JI tightening our belt.
12 I'n not quite sure bow we're going to do tna t, out 13 we'll try.
14 I would like to no te; that the ACRS staff has not 15 had any permanent oositions authrrized since 1976.
Ge ne ra ll y, 16 each year, we come up for one 'or two people and we've been 17 told, we ll, tighten your beltj a little ' it.
13 And I think this would be the fifth year in a row, 19 I think, we have taken all of the f at out of che staf f, if 20 the re was much.
I don't really think that there was much.
21 But we have reassigned sone people to provide closely couoted 22 su pport to the caseload.
23 And if the workload comes doun as predicted, I'm not 24 quite sure how we're going to come uo with this
.91 man years.
25 I guess I'm really hoping that it co e s n ' t tuite come thrcugn IO h.l b0 Id) s
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the pipeline, as everyoccy says it's going to, because I 2
think we would be nard cressed to provice cuality succort for 3
the co mm i ttee, p articularly in the area of evaluating operating 4
experience.
3 In fact, some consideration might be necessary to 6
l imit the ac tivities of the committee or to delay some of 7
their reports because I. think we would be really hard pre ssed.
3 I think the ACRS staff at the present time is werkin; a 9
"espectable amount of overtime -- varies f rom 5 to 10 percent, 10 f rom clerical and secretarial add up to engineer, and I 11 think that that is respectable as an average number.
12 (At 10:05 a.m. Comnissioner Gilinsky enters the room) 13 COW 4ISSIONER AHEARNE: How much adninistrative 14 support, Ray, do you get out of the rest of the NRC, which is 15 another way of asking if that were all to be eliminated, how 16 much would it hurt?
17 MR. FRALEY: Th is is one of the skeletons tnat keeps 13 coming out of the closet, that we have 20 or 21 people invcived 19 in pro f e ssional suoport.
And I think that that may nave 20 weighed heavily in the comp troller's recommendation.
21 CO W4ISSIONER AHEARNE : No, that's a different p ro b l e m.
22 My que stion is:
If you we re to get no support from anywhere 23 else in the NRC, what would be tne impact?
24 MR. FR ALEY : I tnink that that woulo De seve ral 25 man-years, de try to get some succort from pre ss wnen xe c an.
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.le try to get some su? cort in recroduc ing documents when we 2
can.
3 Sut wnen a committee is here and meeting, you 4
can't send stuff out to Bethesda.
Right now we use, you know, 5
the travel unit out there to get their tickets to the degree, 6
again, to the degree that we're able.
But we have to 7
process all the travel claims and compensation claims, and 3
what have you.
9 So it's certainly several man-years' support that 10 we get f rom around other commiss ion of fices.
.li CO MMISSIONER AMEARNE : Mhat's the total nuncer of 12 panel members that you have?
13 MR. FRALEY. Co mmi tt ee members?
Right now we have 14 15 and they work about half time.
15 CO MM I SS IONER AME ARNE : If one of the results of many 16 of the reviews were to be that you are a completely 17 independent organizetion, would you be crippled?
IS MR. FRALEf: I do n' t think it would triple the budget 19 because the committee mercers are putting in acout as much 20 time as tney can.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It would be the administrators 22 that you'd have to replace.
23 VR. 00ALEY: The staf f would triple. That's about 24 half, I would think of the total.
t 25 But, again, if I m ay -- th is p ro f e ss io n e l s u cc or t.
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we're frecuently compared here to the support overh?ad in 2
a normal line NRC office.
And I think that's an inaoprooriate 3
comparison.
4 This orofe ssional support does include, as they 5
say, some very closaly coupled supoort of the pro f e ss ional 6
engineers en the sta f f. We he, engineering aides and what 7
have you, in that group.
9 You know, in addition, they do all the travel, all 9
of the document. control, all of the personnel ac tivit ies,
10 all of the compensation, all o f the claims, and e ver, :
'.ng that are associated, not with 14 pro f e ss io na ls, but 12 actually, with 150 prof e ssionals.
They support the f ellows.
13 You knew, we didn't get any acministrative support 14 to support the fellows when they were assigned.
15 They support the co mm i tt ee m embe rs.
They support 15 the res t of the s ;a ff, and they support a hundred consultants.
17 Now the members put in about half time. To be sure 13 the consultants, th a t repre sents se veral man-years.
But there 19 is a continuing overhead having a panel that large accard.
20 And I think the fact that the members and 21 consultants are spread out throughout the United State s puts 22 an added burden en it.
23 I think this support is very similar to the kind o f 24 support that your personal sta f f s provice the com.miss ioners 25 and the secre tariat.
And I think that ycu can realize how tnat g n r,--
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would be conclicated if the comm iss ioners we re located 2
throughout the country but your s ta ff wa s he re in dashingten.
3 There's a lot of travel involved.
If everytning you 4
wanted to come to a mee ting --
5 (Laughter.)
6 MR. FRALEY: For cxample, we proce ss between 15,000 7
and 20,000 incoming documents a year.
They come in in 15 3
copies, each of the se documents, because we have part-time 9
people.
We have to look at them for conflict of interest.
10 We can't send them to anybody who has a conflict of interest.
11 In a cuit ion, no comaittee member can afford the 12 t ime, e f fort, or space to receive all of these documents.
13 So we have to make a very select distribution, depending on 14 their working assignments, their interes ts, and. their 15 availability.
16 Again, depending on how urgent the document is, we 17 have several mailing addresses f or each member.
We have to le package them and some of them go to their routine address, 19 some of them go to their urgent address, and what have you.
20 These are, you know, some o f the things tha t hapcen 21 having people spread out through all the country. Yo u co n' t 22 just walk around the hall and drop o f f five copies.
23 CO MM I SS IONER AME ARNE : Ray, let me get back to this 24 question.
25 nhat I think I'm surorise d at is the re coesn't seem 0)[ O p r s
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to be any, and ma ybe it's a premature judgment or maybe I 2
haven't thou ht it through and reached a conclus ion, but this 3
loo ks to me to be exac tly the same kind of a oudget request 4
I would have requested had thare not osen any Three ille 5
Island.
6 It doesn't seem to me that you've r evalueted the 7
role of the ACRS and here are the changes tnat you tnink are C
going to have to be made to the role it plays.
9 MR. FR ALEY : dell, I think it's clear that the scope 10 of the licensing review is going to be expanded, and I think 11 it's clear that operating experience is going to have to 12 be evaluated.
13 COMMISSIONER AMEARNE: Did the co mittee addrass 14 that question at all?
15 kR. FRAL;Y: We're having a meeting next week to 16 discuss underlying causes contricuting to the Three atile 17 Island accident to.think about whether the committee's role way, as well as on the should be amended ig any significant 13 19 other recommendations that the co mmitt ee wculd care to make.
20 So I think, except to reccgnize tnat the re arc 21 areas that n eed increa sed c t tantion --
22 CO VMI SSIO..dR AME ARNd : The committee itself, then, 21 never sat down for a couple of days and tncugnt tnrougn wnat 24 way might it significantly cnange its role, cnarter, f un c t io n.
25 MR. :RALEY: ihat's go ing to s tart.1e cne sday,
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2 CO MMISSIONER GILINSKY: May I interject a more 3
detailed ouestion?
A dhat was your role in evaluating this lessons learned 5
report?
Did that run by you cefore it came out in final 6
form, or are you goinc to review it no.9 7
MR. FRALEY: The committee has had severa! meetings 8
with Roger Mat: son's grouc on le ssons learnec.
The c c Tm i t t ee 9
was turning out its recort at the same t ime it was meeting 10 with the sta ff, the bulletins, and orders group and the il lessons learned group.
12 And, in fact, we do plan to discuss at th3 next 13 meeting the latest edition of the lessons learned report.
14 COM4ISSIONER GILINSKY: The formal report.
15 SR. FRALEY: Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Will you senu us some thing 17 on that?
18 MR. FRALEY: We're thinking about interim report 19 no.
4, yes.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What acout the report from 21 the off ice o f inscection and enf orcement ' ha t we heard about o
22 yesterday?
23 MR. FR'ALEY : We got cocies of that yesterday, I think.
24 CO MMI SS I0 DER GI LI NS.<Y : Can we expect the views of 25 the co mm i ttee ?
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Certainly they will co their cest to provide them.
I'll pass 3
that on.
4 C0!SISSI0 DER AHEARNE: I g' e ss I, myself, am much 5
more interested in che ir views on lessons learned because 6
it a ddre ss es --
7 MR. FRALEY: de ll, it's clear that se're bea ring S
down now on some reactors that ere waiting for their 9
operating licens es to be issues.
And, in fact, at the 10 August and September meeting, we will have to cons ider the 11 first reactors in this series, and I think that then we will 12 really have to bite the bullet.
13 CO V.4ISSIONER AHEARNE : Since we are in the budg et,
14 tho ugh, if I could get back to this point. You said that the 15 ACRS is going to be meeting next week.
And one of the 16 issues that they will be looking at is to whether any major 17 changes should be.made.
18 So they have any k'ind of a date at which they 19 might be forwarding that if tney were to forkerd it to us?
20 MR. FRALEY: No, we do not have a soecific date. I 21 think we've talked about this.
22 COVMISSIONER AHEAD:l5 : When is our date for sending 23 to GMB?
24 MR. S A RRY : The fire'. of Sectember.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The first of 5ectemaer. Changes h i
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can always de out in afterwards.
2 MR. FRALEY: dell --
2 CO MMISSIONER AHE ARNE : So if eney were to be reaching 4
any significant concit s ions --
5 MR. F9ALEY : We ll, I think, in fact, the co -m i tt ee 5
members themselves are procably putting in as much time as 7
they can devote. There may be some me jor changes in the S
staf f or the use of consultants.
9 COMNISSIONER AMEARNE: Or the sir For example, 10 it's entirely f eas ible, they may conclude tha; 15 is just 11 too sma ll, that tney should expand to 45 and separate into 12 more subcommittees.
13 It could be possible they could conclude.
14 CO.8StISSIONER GILINSXY: 45 wnat?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: ACRS m embers.
16 CO M,'.t I SS I O NE R G I L I NS.< Y : You're talk ing about a change 17 in the law, aren't you?
13 CO MM ISS IONER AHEARNE : Yes.
What I'm say ing is that 19 I would expect a f undamental re-examina t ion oy them.
20 MR. FRALEY: Let me say that Congre ssmen Hollingsworth 21 one time suggested that we might need an east coast and a 22 west coast ACRS.
And I tnink that the committee was not tco 23 enthusiastic about its expanding.
<. 4 COMM I SS IONER AHE ARNE : I'm not saying that it would be 25 goed or bad.
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.N e ll, tne se are th ings tnat will neve 2
to be adcrassed and as scon as tney ccme down with some 3
r e c o mme noa t ions, I'm sure that we'll pass them on.
4 CHAIRMAN HE.90RIE: Others.
5 CO W.f [ 5S I O.IER G I L I NS.< (: If it hasn't oeen me ntioned,
6 let me say for mysalf that tne committee's coments on the 7
research budget we re very, very helpful.
3 MR. FRALEY: I think tnat the comittee gorked very 9
hard and I hope they were more pointed.
10 ComI5SIO;lER AHE ARNE: It was very useful.
It was 11 also - particularly, it was very timely.
It arrived in time, 12 7t least for me to have gone tnrough them And ECO was able 13 to provide scmething in that regard.
14 it was very useful, 15 VR. FRALEY: Ma ybe I could just spend a coucle of 16 minutes on that.
17 Tn is is anothe r area where I know cecple keep iS wondering why se keep asking f cr more staf f.
But two years 19 ago when we we re first assigned the R3R report, we we re also 20 given the f ellcws to sort of help tne committee. Unfortunately, 21 the fe llowship program wasn't operative when we had to turn 22 out the first report.
23 So we took that out of the existing staff.
Last 24 year, we did have a sen ior f e llow, Jonn Austin, wnc va s very 25 helpful in putti g that recort to ether and really helped a lot q, m 7 I
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Only tnis year he's ;cne.
He now works f or Senator aart.
2 And so, tnis year, despite the fact that One recort 3
was moved up and it was expance d, we rea lly didn't neve any 4
fellow to help end it had to ce dunped bac'< on the regulac 5
staff and it did create consiceracle stra in and pain.
cle have new assigned another fellow wnc doe s not 7
have the experience that John did.
And I don't th inx you 3
know, we can expect quite the a ss is tance. Sut it's tnet k ind 9
of thing that keeps plaguing us.
10 I mean, these things that are original work, that 11 require more s ta f f suppo rt than the sort of reutine review 12 of a more or less standard water reactor, for example.
13 No w I know that Three Mile Island has changes things 14 a little bit, but that's ge ne rally true.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE* Okay.
Thank you.
16 MR. FR ALEY 2 Tnank you.
17 CHAIRMAN MENDRIE As we progress down the list, 13 the licensing board panel, let's see, the panel proposes to 17 keep the sane standing level to use 20 percent less program 20 support and travel a smidge more.
21 Cm&ISSIO.iER AHEARNE3 I think wnat the l ic e n s ing 22 boa rd would like to do --
23 CHAIRWAN MENDRIE: I think if we could, in fact, 24 get them up to the 37 -- any comment s or discussion on the 25 panel?
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COVMISSIOJER AMEARNE: I think we have to keep in 2
mind nat the function of the canal, the function of the field 3
panel is a subject that we have OGC work coming in on.
4 CHAIRMAN HENORIE: Yes.
And I've urged that tne le vel 5
of action on that nove along.
I can't want to push it too 6
hard because that will only lead more directly int o '_ en's 7
hands when he comes up in a minute to ask for new staff in 3
the counsel's o f fice, yo u s e e.
9 C0K'41SSIOJER AHEARNE :.What I was thinking about 10 was that las t year, as I recall, CMB struck nembers out of 11 these panels on the grounds that Victor had proposed 12 consolidation.
13 My response was that we we ren't ready yet to address 14 that, while we are now coning one year later.
15 bHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It continues to be true.
/le're 15 nothing, if not consistent.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: An ywa y, we're ccming one year 18 later and we do not have the s t ud ie s.
And so we are going 19 back in for the same structure.
20 This weakens our argument a little oit.
21 Co h'AISSI0 DER.<E NEDY : I don't think it weakens the 22 argument at all.
How does it weaken the argument?
23 CHAIRMAN HENORIE: It orings us --
24 COMMI5SICJER AHE ARNE: After one year.
The streng:n 25 o f the argumen t would ce that if we nave eceived the study, 3
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re-examined tne conclusions and made e dec is ion, and 2
tnerefore --
3 COMMISSIaJER KE NEDt: [ha t sould be e di ff e rent 4
argument.
5 COMM ISSIO lER AHEARNE: OMB, I think, is familiar 6
with the continuing study of the budget.
7 COMMISSIONER KE UEDY: The study of tne budget is S
the study of the organization.
They're also f amiliar with 9
that.
We deal with the Ce f ense Department every year 10 regularly, and if there's one tning tney're constantly 11 reviewing, it's new organizations in the Defense Department.
12 CHAIRMAN HE:iDRIE: Why don't de ask the general 13 counsel and his people to come forward and we'll talk about 14 this and then about' the counsel's o f fice, wh ic h is next en 15 the list after the panel, anyway.
16 MR. BA RRY : The difficulty we had with GMB last i
17 year, while we were in the holding pcsition waiting f or a l
15 study, instead of holdir at 15, they held us first at zero 19 and finally compromised nd held us at 3.
20 You know, tha t's the thing -- we don't want to go 21 through that again this year and hold us again at zero or 3.
d.2 de lost 7 soaces last year as a result of that.
23 CO VM I SS I OJER AHE ARNE : 1here's the status?
24 WR. SICKWIT: I'm afraid I'm not at all clear whicn 25 study you're talking about. It could oe any of a nuacer.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARN5:
Consolida:1cn or not of the 2
licensing board?
3 MR. SICKWIT:
Tha t is a stucy which we expect to 4
be completed in October.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Seginning or end?
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
End.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
How about the middle?
8 MR. BICKNIT:
We haven't been able to :ero in on 9
it.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see.
Is there a 11 draf t available?
12 MR. SICKWIT:
No, there is not.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
In October, we'll get a 14 draft?
15 MR. FITZGERALD:
I think my impression is that 16 Steve Ostrach is about two weeks away f rom a draf t, but 17 t ha t's b een pu she d bac k.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Since he works on TMI One 19 orders at the moment, he's probably not making much progress 20 o n t ha t, en the Board study.
21 Well, i t seems to me that even if we had that 22 s tudy in hand at the momen t, this budge t will have to go 23 forward before we have time to discuss it and hc:k it out 24 and so forth.
So for better or worse, we will not ha ve t ha t 25 s tudy un til la ter.
However, we may have it just in time to i
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My impression is that they 2
f ound whacking the Appeal s Soard ou t of the list last 3
year -- they found that sort of a convenient way of having a 4
set aside on their cide.
I think they knew damn well we 5
were going to make the 15 positions up elsewhere and just 6
Icoked at the lis t and sa ic, le t's take 15 ou t, and isn't 7
thi s convenien t; we'll ax these guys and then let them 8
rearrange things to sui t them.
I wouldn't be surprised if V
they do it again this year on the same basis, since no 10 changes in staffing level and really no substantive changes 11 in the nrogram su pport levels are requested f rom either the 12 Licensing Goard panel or the Appeals panel.
13 I must say I don' t see a great deal to argue 14 with.
I assume when they estimate a little higher level for
- 5 travel, they know t ha t th y 're talking about.
16 MR. JARRY:
Tha t's e ssentially because your 17 hearing is now out rather than in.
We've experienced that IS this year, and we've had to reprogram.
19 COMMISSIGNER KENNEDY :
Indivicual travel costs are 20 increasing.
21 MR. SARRY:
But it's primarily because we have 22 recognizec they now have a hearing convocation early in the 23 hearing.
Pte ha ve to inc rea se the bud ge t.
24 CHA IRMAN HENCRIE:
Ac tua lly the travel money is 25 the least cost of :nat operation.
The addition of staff f'
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time tha t you're putting in f or One su ppor t of the hearings 2
is really expensive, and having them out of town.
3 COMMISS IONER KENNEDY :
That isn't travel costs.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No, i t doesn't a pcear.
'S MR. SARRY:
That coesn't appear in here.
o COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Where is this?
Under 7
" Program Supcort' ?
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Tha t just reflects in the 9
manpower requests you get. and subsequently i t doe sn' t to appe ar here' a t all.
W ha t I'm getting on to saying is tha t I li don't see a great deal that's exceptionable in either of 12 the se line items.
And I recommend we ge t on to the 13 Counsel's Office, if that's all right with everybody.
14 Taking silence as agreement or at least no 15 objection, Len?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Just one que stion.
Do you 17 expect that it will stabilize in the out years?
18 MR. BARRY:
The travel?
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
20 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Stabilize in accordance with t"e 21 n umber of hearing s we ha v e.
It snould parallel the 22 hearings.
If the hearings go up, i t'll go up.
If the 23 hearings go down, it'll go cown.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Len, why don't you explain to 25 us this prcposition for five and five?
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MR. BICKWIT:
We suemi tted a memo --
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You do, inoeed, have a memo 3
with this July 31
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4 MR. SICKNIT:
I'll just make a f ew supplemen tary 5
comments.
.irst of all, there doe s seem to be a reater 6
spirit of adventurism on the Commission and a de31re to 7
involve itself more directly.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Tna: coesn't sound like a 9
g cod wo rd, b u t m aybe --
10 COMMISSIONER GILINS<Y:
I t elimina te s " turn...g 11 point."
12 MR. BICKWIT Whit it is meant to connote is a 13 spirit of direct involvement in proceedings whereas in the 14 past, t hi t involvement had not been present, and tha t 15 invariably means considerable involvement by our of fice.
to 16 acdi tion, we find ourselve s a t this point in a somewhat 17 reac tive posture, which is perhaps the posture the IE Commi ssicn would wan t us in.
But personally, I'd like to 19 see us in a more crea tive role.
That becomes difficult 20 without increased resources.
21 Cof.tMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Creat ive in wha t sense?
22 MR. BICKNIT:
In the sense of taking a thorough 23 icok at things like the sta tu te and the regulations and 24 coming to you with suggestions for revamping these, even 25 when you haven't come to us with those sugge s tion s.
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workload stemming f rom TMI.
I think it's rather apparent
^
4 t ha t this takes its toll in increa sed litiga tion and 5
increased legisla tion and increased activity of our office 6
associatec with inve stiga ticns, activities on the 7
Pre siden t's Cu mmi ssion, t ha t kind of thing.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And you see tha t is more 9
than a one year interim.
10 MR. SICKWIT:
I do, but I want to specify that our 11 recommendations for FY 'SI are extremely sof t.
It is very 12 dif ficult f ar us to bid that f ar.
13 COMMISSIONER AHdARNE:
What was puzzling me was 14 that the strength of your recommendation eally seems to be 15 geared to the five that you're asking for in the 16 s uppl emen tal.
You're really saying, at least as I read it, 17 that you foresee that aircady there has been a substantial 18 increase in demand, and so the ref ore, as scon as po ssible,
19 you need that step up.
By having gone to tha t s tep up, 20 which is a 20 percent inc rease or so, at that stage you then 21 f eel in another year you would need a similar increase.
22 MR. SICKWIT:
The'.'s true, and as I said, I feel 23 much less a ssurance abou t that second step.
The reason for 24 1
is that I co perceive the TMI af termath extencing beyond 25 the next fiscal year.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, but the five that 2
you're asking for in One supplemental, I wculd tnink would 3
be rela tec to tha t TMI af te rmath.
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4 MR. SICKWIT:
Tha t's right.
And I'm saying that 5
you're procably oing to have to use t ho se people on TMI o
rela ted ma tters in F( '81 as well as FY '80.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sut then --
6 MR. SICKWIT:
And t he' t en top of those five, 9
tha t's right.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's that second five that il I find --
12 MR. SICKWIT:
The re, wha t we're talking about is 13 the kind of creative activity that I mentioned, which are 14 things like projects to take a gcod hard icok at how the 15 Atomic Energy Act, the procedural legal aspects of the
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16 Atomic Energy Act fit tog e the r, how the regulations l'it 17
- nge ther, whe ther a rewrite of either is appropriate.
I 18 would say that my tenta tive position is that extensive 19 rewriting is needed in bo th ef f orts.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But i t may be done f or you.
21 MR. SICKWIT:
That's true.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Even if i t's done f or us,
t 23 creates a substantial workload im pa c t.
24 MR. SICKWIT:
I think invariably it will.
25 CHAIRMAN HENORIE:
I presume the agency will be pop 7 ir i
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views or be ccapelled to submit them, even if 2
et asked, Not a very relatec question to the bucge t, but o
4 since 1: came to mind yesterds,, whatever became of that 5
stab we w are going to take at acceptacle risk language?
6 M?. SICKWIT:
I t's aoout ready to ccme up as a 7
pa pe r.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You were talking the o ther day 9
about tnis acceptable risk study and whether it was 10 wor t hwhil e.
I gue ss it was Saul on the risk a sse ssment, I 11 think it was, having, you kno w, sending prof essors to go and 12 lecture at each other in seminars on what bases for 13 acceptable risk were.
And af ter that discussion, it 14 occurred to me that Len and I had tal!<ed abou t whe ther we 15 could develop a propositien worth discussing to propose to 16 the Congress, namely to put some language in the Atomic 17 Energy Act that says, here in a general way is what 18 a cceptacle risk means with regard to nuclear power.
19 So it didn't occur to me when we were having the 20 budget ciscussion, and af terwards I real.ted that I had 21 underway with Len the beginnings of the project, which were 22 along the lines which you were sugges ting -- name ly, w hy 23 support all the:e prof e ssors' talking to each other?
Why 24 don't we sit cown and do it?
25 MR. SICKNIT:
That is precisely the kind of :ning.
>n e
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i, 9
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i
3CO'03 08 36 Ogc I
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It clearly is on the back 2
burner compared to acre urgent matters litigation and 3
pre ssing ad judica tory ma tte rs.
4 MR. FITZGERALD:
The past year also saw, in my 5
view, a grea t increase in the Commission turning to OGC to 6
conduct the Appeals Scard study that you just mentioned to 7
serve en this task force or this task group.
Serving on --
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Who used to do that kinc of 9
thing?
10 MR. FITZGERALD:
I don't know whether you were 11 turning --
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I t didn' t u s ed to ha ppen.
13 MR. FITZGERALD:
Unleashing so many, I don't know 14 whether you'll continue to in the future to turn --
/
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It said " spirit of 16 a d ve n tur i sm. "
17 MR. FITZGERALD:
Bu t these things can be grea t 18 time things, if there is any time.
We've got one that is 19 plodding along now that we're investing an awf ul lo t of time 20 on.
It's tha t delegations -- long promised delegation
?. I s t ud y.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm glad you used that 23 descripti te gerund.
24 MR. FITZCERALD:
"Piodcing along"?
But the se 25 things co take an awful lot of time, and wnen we ere doing
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the normal day to day stuf f, perhaps they do get shoved 2
back.
But I would predict t ha t if you :0ntinued to do that 3
in the future, we'c have to consider that.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
And in the past, we've 5
tended to lcok to ELD on a lo t of questions having to do o
with the Atomic Energy Act legi sl a tion.
Thac's an area that 7
properly belongs wi th OGC.
In orcer to move t he r e, I think 8
they need more people.
9 CHAIRMAN H' dDRIE:
I have one major dif ficulty e
10 with any increase in CGC staffing.
11 MR. GICKWIT:
I can tell what it is.
I ha ve i t,
12 too.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So far I've beea unable to 14 solve your present space problem, and I a sst:mc that with any 15 increase 1.} the o f fic e, it becomes intolerablt And I don't 16 know what to do about it.
17 MR. BICKWIT:
That has been solved.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It has?
19 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
How?
21
( La ugh te r. )
22 MR..CITZGER ALD:
The ACRS is moving to Bethesca.
23 MR. 31CKWIT:
The OP ha s been ve ry helpf ul.
He's 24 agreed to house his staf f, and we're going to move in to the 25 nistorian's of fice.
[~p{. 9 O rn d
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CCO 03 10 38 mgc 1
CHAIRMAN HENDR IE:
Cocc work, A1, you've done it 2
again.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Perhaps the otner Len could 4
comment on the problem that we had with the OGC.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDR IE:
Yes.
Comptroller, you take a 6
dim view of this.
7 MR. BARRY:
I, my se lf, have had to play the 8
devil's advocate more than once.
I'll start by just simply 9
saying that in the in pu t we received f rom Len's o f fice --
10 some of the things he said, you couldn't read in there.
It 11 just wasn't there.
It was non-existen t, so we only had to 12 judge on wha t we read.
If you look at your piece of pa per 13 here under CGC, you see that one position per increased 14 litigation stemming f rom TMI, which is one of the three we 15 said Icoked good, one position to deal with Congre ssional 16 testimony, pre para tion and review analysis stemming f rom 17 TMI -- again, it's a TMI requiremen t -- you wonder how long 18 that'll last.
It'll probaily last this year,
'80.
But how 19 r..uc h longer will tha t last in to '31 f or the Congre ssional 20 part of it?
In o the r words, to deal with answers?
21 And then, the one position -- draf ting and 22 reviewing proposed nuclear related legislation --
23 COMM ISS IONER GILINSKY :
You're talking abou t OGC?
24 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
These are the individual things 25 on your paper tnere that we nad to deal with -- one position T. 8. ;;n, -
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l
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CCC 03 l 'i 39 mgc f or draf ting and proposing pro po sed nuclear relateo 2
legislation in view of Appeal Board decisicas.
We came up 3
with the same que s tion the Chairman had.
You know, w ho 's 4
been doing it now?
And f or su pplemental, we couldn't agree 5
that that was a TMI related action.
So tha t one, our answer 6
on that was we couldn't see any justification on the two 7
positions for clerical su ppor t.
As we indicate, Len is 8
blessec with having a pre tty high ratio of clerks to 9
lawyers.
10 We noted that his overtime rate last year for a 11 year for the clerical support was 30 minutes a week, 31 12 minutes overtime.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
How doe s that contras t with 14 the overall average for the agency?
15 MR. SARRY:
In all hone s ty, the overall paid 16 overtime for the agency, with the exception of your offices, 17 Sa= Chilk's of fice, and my of fice is not very high.
18 Frankly --
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Comparable to this?
20 MR. BARRY:
Comparable to tha t.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I'm no t sure whe ther tha t 22 demonstrates be tter managemen t of the resources in the 23 offices than in ours, or wnac.
or mayce si;r. ply a pencnant 24 on our part f or lor.g hours.
25 MR. BARRY:
Tha t may be.
And in all case s, you rip q
,,3 in a
em h
I
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C 0 '0 3 12 40 mgc 1
can't relate paid overtime to total overtime, pa r ticularly 2
the closer you ge t to the tcc hnical engineers wno do a lot 3
of deliberation and a lot of computer work and finally it's 4
reduced to writing.
5 But in many offices you can't --
6 COMMISS IONER AMEARNE:
How does this compare to 7
ELD?
8 MR. BARRY:
ELD has run about the same.
I'll give 9
you a little update, because the last six months of '79 is a 10 little heavier than '7S, and ELD is running. 44, in other 11 words a li ttle le ss than half.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What's the clerical to 13 prof e ssional ratio?
14 MR. SARRY:
It's a li ttle heavier.
Al, how does 15 the clerical ratio in OGC compare to ELD 7 16 MR. FITZGERALD:
By division, in the Hearing 17 Division, the clerical to prof e ssional is the highest.
It's 18 a pproxima tely one to three.
I t's com pa rable to O GC,
19 MR. BARRY:
In the Hearing Division?
20 MR. FITZGERALD:
Tha t's the only place.
Eve ry 21 o ther place in ELD is considerably le ss.
22 MR. BARRY:
My po in t is not that the ratio in OGC 23 is wrong.
I'm only saying nat it's pretty high, and the 24 o vertime rate indica tes tha t there's no t a critical prcblem 25 in terms of n eeding more clerical and so o n.
That's the
'N e
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CCO 03 13 a1 mgc I
conclusion.
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15
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16 17 18 19 ah 20 e
21 22 23 24 25
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- C0 04 01 42 mgc I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How does it com pare to 2
lawyers' firms?
3 MR. BARRY:
I really can't tell.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
In comparison to the 5
General Counsel.
6 MR. BICKWIT:
Wha t are we being asked?
7 COMMISS IONER GI LINSKY :
There seems to be seme 8
question about the ratio of secretaries, non-lawyers, to the 9
to tal numcer of staf f.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Wha t is the cut in OCC7 MR. BICKWIT It's 15 a ttorneys and 6 clerical.
12 COMM.SSIONER GILINSKY:
I was asking what would it 13 be in a legal firm?
14 MR. BICKWIT Tha t looks -- I think you would be a 15 li ttle higber as f ar as clerical.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
In a legal firm.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
15 and 6 is 21, and we've go t la 23 listed for '80.
19 MR. B ICKW IT:
That leaves one paralegal cut of the 20 equation.
21 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
Tha t would be 22 f or '79.
22 MR. BICKWIT:
R ig ht.
23 --
23 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
The 23 in '80, in fact, is not 24 reflected in the Conf e rence Re port, right?
25 MR. SARRY:
Tha t's co rre c t.
p q o Fo
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CCO'04 02 43 mgc CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So the '50 number is not 23, 2
it's 22.
Where else in this list are there differences of 3
t ha t kind?
That may be the only case.
4 MR. BARRY:
Tha t's the only one I can think of at 5
the =cment.
6 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
Now, what about the C I A ?
7 MR. BARRY:
In CIA, in the '80 budget when we wen t 8
to GMB, we asked for an increase of two.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
From 26 to 28, or 28 to 30?
10 MR. BARRY:
28 to So, and OMB cut it ou t.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Oh, it didn't go forward to the 12 Congress.
13 MR. BARRY:
It did not go f orward to the Congress.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The only one that went forward 15 to the Congre ss was the OGC7 16 MR. B ARRY :
OGC.
One.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
At any rate, the numbers that 18 you show on this sheet as a Fiscal Year '80, 22, because 19 i t's no t in the Conf erenc e Re port.
Okay.
So that's 21 and 20 your paralegal that does it.
So tha t's 15 prof e ssional, 6 21 clerical, 1 cara.
Any further?
22 COMMISS IONER KENNEDY:
With the FY '80 supplement 23 plus 5, and the '81 plus 5, we're talking about 10 more.
24 Wha t's the distribution of those as to clerical and 25 prof e ssional?
7 m o c. ^
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MR. SARRY:
I should say in the su ppl em en ta l,
2 there are two posittens f or clerical, anc in 'SI, an 3
accitional clerical.
4 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
That's seven prof e ssionals, 5
three clericals.
6 COMMISS!aNER KENNEDY:
That, in fact, is going to 7
make the clerical situation worse than i t is now.
8 MR. SARRY:
It would actually improve i t or 9
degrade it, depending on which way you Icok at it, but in 10 terms of ratio of clerks to lawyers, there would be a higher 11 ratio.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
It's going to be lower on 13 the basts of this request.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Whe t he r i t's t oo low -- i t 15 souncs to qe like it's about right.
Len thinks it's a 16 little lower than it would be in a private firm.
It appears 17 to be a little higher than it is generally in the agency.
la Let me sugges t it's not t co ba d.
Fur ther commen t?
19 MR. SICKWIT:
We were anticipating three and two 20 of the first five.
The four and one is much more 21 speculative.
12 COMMISSIGNER AMEARNE:
Yes.
May I ask a question?
23 I had asked E00 and then shif tec it back to OGC for an 24 estimate for hunting f or intervenor f unding inclucec in the 25 budge:, anc I got an estimate, a rough estimate.
Plo uld Qm 7
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CCO*04 04 45 mgc I
this be the appropriate line item in programs f or CGC if we 2
were to, a s a Co mmi ss i on, vo te to put that in?
3 MR. BARRY:
You mean where to put it?
4 MR. COSSICK:
That de pends on how the Commi ssion 5
would decide to set the program up and administer it.
It o
could be either place, I would assume.
7 MR. BARRY:
It woulon't necessarily show in the 8
OCC, but it would s how in the program.
Well, depending on 9
wrc is administering it, it could be just nothing more than 10 a budge t ca tegory.
It would show up in either the PTA or il PTS categories.
Tha t's where it would show in the budget.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Al thougn i t's f ar f rom 13 clear tha t the Commission as a group will endorse i t, if we 14 were, would you give me by Monday, Len, just a line item 15 place to put that?
16 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
I'll tell you right now it will 17 be in PTS.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And unde r the Co mmi ssion,
19 what of fice?
20 MR. BARRY:
I t wo uld be t he people who de termined 21 w ho ge t s ana t, and I gue ss it would be based upon the 22 hearings and the contribution of the intervenor to the 23 hearings, so it would be either, you know, CCC or the board, 24 the Hearing Board.
In either case, that means Program 25 Technical Su ppor t, just like the Gran t Aid Program is under r.
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6
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- C0 04 05 46 mgc I
Technical Su pport, because it will be a state progrem 2
aominis ta rea -- it will oe PT5.
Tha t's where we would put 3
i t.
4 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
I would think you took it and 5
called it program m;; port for CCC in any case.
6 MR. SA9RY:
It would be the Board's probably.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Or identified sa se pa r a te 6
item.
O t he rwi se, you ge: it confused with OGC's five 9
kilobucks.
10 MR. SARRY:
But in a sense, it's program support il in the sense that you're paying for some advice f rom people.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You're paying for party 13 participation.
What I'm saying is, it would properly be in 14 the category of program support.
It would have to be 15 program su pport.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right.
We'll send tha t 17 along.
O ther questions?
18 (No response. )
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We'll discharge 'the General 20 Co unse l.
21 COMMISS IONER AHEARNE:
I think he's done a gcod 22 job.
23 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
Cnly from the meeting.
He ha s 24 to come back this af ternocn f or the next meeting.
25 VR. EICKNIT:
You're right.
In the majority.
pmoq i,
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There's saf e ty in numbers.
2 COMM ISS ION ER KENN EDY : Was one of T.any things you 3
were going to come f orward about was the majority question.
4 it crossed my minc again.
You're going to come forward with 5
a paper which cescribed in procedural format the numoer of o
questicns you ra i se d.
Can we anticipate that some time in 7
the relatively near future?
8 MR. SICKWIT:
Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
This is on what?
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The procedures.
Il COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Our business, in order to 12 get i t done.
13 MR. S ICKWIT:
I think you can anticipate tha t in 14 about a. week's time.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
On the OGC numbers, Len, I 16 notice on your sheet that you have he a r, the big shee t, it 17 says the President's budge t was 24.
Current is 22.
The IS President's budget is 24, and the current estimate is 23.
19 M.9. SICKWIT:
He've given away a slot.
20 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Is that just an error?
21 MR. BICKWIT:
Nc, that ene slot was transferred.
22 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Tha t's right.
They transferred 23 t.
They transf erred it from OGC into MPA, so the base 24 line now is 23.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDR!E Except it's ance r the I
f.
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JC0 C4 07 48 mgc 1
Conf erence Commi ttee, w hy it's 22.
2 MR. SARRY:
Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That means if the delta is ten 4
and ten, it means those 33s beccme 32s in the out year.
5 MR. BARRY:
If you were going to honor that he did 6
have a legitimate requirement in '80, then your total would 7
still be 33.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Joe?
I s ee you've got us on 9
television again yesterday.
Wa s tha t in preparation?
10 MR. FOUCHARD:
I'm no t sure that would be in f avor il or against me, sir.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY Wo uld you explain while 13 ycu're here --
14 MR. FOUCHARD:
May I be excused?
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY r Why, af ter Mr. S tello 16 having been asked a question and sta ted to answer it 17 MR. FOU CHARD:
And Bob Hope cane on the screen.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
In a very good soft shoe, 19 but sort of irrelevant to the quest an, I thought.
Maybe it 20 wasn't.
And I wonder wha t MacNeil/Le hrer had to say about 21 t ha t.
22 MR. F00 CHARD:
I don't know that they even knew 23 it.
We knew it in the con trol room.
I knew they had some 24 problems, but I didn't knew w ha t it was.
But they taped it 25 at 7:C0 and sPcwed it here at 7:30.
I figured tney would
~
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0C0'04 CS 49 mgc 1
ecic tha t problem out.
2 CO MMI SS IGN ER KEN.'iEDY :
.ne proclem was in i t when 3
- ney ran it in the first place?
4 MR. FOUCHARO:
Yes, sir.
But i t was a diversio,.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It was peculiar.
They must 6
have just lost a ta pe.
7 MR. FOU CHAR D:
The cen trol rcom showed se ve ral 8
things including Bob Hope, including some thing el se, and 9
they just must ha ve switched to that particular picbure at 10 the time, you know, because they were taping.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
By an error?
12 MR. FOUCHARD:
Yes, sir.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The equipment was all right.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It was a very, very clever 15 blee p, and I wondered what it was that Vic was saying.
16 dR. FOUCHARD:
I believe he was talking abouc the 17 precursor of Davis-Be sse.
That was the question.
What I've 18 asked for is an additional three prof e ssionals, f rankly, as 19 soon as po ssible f or Regions One, Two and Three.
Anc 20 a ssuming tha t the po t of gold is at the end of the rainbow 21 there, an additional prof e ssional in the following year's 22 b udge t.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The '81 posi ticn would be 24 headed for --
25 MR. FOUCHARC:
It says five.
p,.,,
i, e
=
CC0 '04 09 50 mgc 1
CHAIRMA:1 HENDRIE:
viherever you need it.
2 MR. FOU CHAR D:
Where ver I need it i s the an swer.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'1ha t do you have currently 4
for the regions?
One prof e ssional in each region.
6 We ge t our support from I&E.
I believe in the regions where 7
there is a s ta te liaison officer, the public affairs 8
officers and the sta te liai son person share a secretary.
9 COMMISSIONER AMEARNE:
Is the reason you have not 10 asked f or Four and Five the smaller size?
11 MR. FOUCHARD:
Yes.
I believe the werkload at the 12 present time is in One, Two, and tnree, inere are Jcst more 13 plan ts, more activity, in tho se three regions.
14 (At 10:55 Commissioner Gilinsky lef t the room.)
15 MR. FOU CHARD :
If I can just give you an 16 illustration, on the day of the minor release from Peach 17 Bo ttom several weeks ago, a Region One public affairs 18 officer handled 120 telephone calls.
These are not only 19 media calls; the se are public calls.
And the workload in 20 each of these regions as well as Headquar:ers has just 21 increased encrmously.
It's certainly worse since Three Mile 22 Island.
I think it began ebout a year ago when Seebrcok 23 really turned public a ttention on :ne activities of this 24 Commissicn in a way wnich we really hadn't seen in the past.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The Great Sicewa'k Event.
0 l
o
)
CCG G4 10 51 mgc 1
MR. FOUCHARD:
That's part of it, sir.
Yes, sir.
2 Just fo< us on the ac tivitie s of the agency on a day to day 3
basis, we hacn't seen tha t before.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We ll, Jo hn, it seems all to 5
have started to ha ppen about the time you joined us.
6 CDMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You're welcome.
7 CHA IRMAN HE.'ICRIE:
I can't know what to draw from 8
t ha t s an inference.
Questions?
9 (No re s pon se. )
10 MR. BARRY:
Just a co mmen t, that it is an 11 immediate requirement in terms of need.
12 MR. FOUCHARD:
Yes.
If I could get some thing f or 13 Region One as quick as I could, that would be a big lift, 14 and the others as quick a s po ssible.
But I should really oa 15 staffing Three Mile Island a couple or three days a week.
16 We've got tnat much ac tivity up there yet.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Of your nine spaces, are 18 they all filled?
19 MR. FOUCHARO:
All except t he Ce pu ty, ye s, sir.
underway under the SES system with 20 And that recruitment 21 the requirements.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think if the Co mmi ssion --
23 well, le t's see how the discussion goes.
I think my own 24 view is tnat the puolic af f airs of ficers out in those 25 regions are -- you know, t ha t the workload levels have 7,,
, 7 -
7,
- i t
O r
(
r
CCC'04 l '1 52 mgc 1
gotten rignt out of han d.
2 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNE:
I woulo su ppcrt it, pernaps 3
in a slightly different way.
I think if there were more 4
people in the region s, then they might also be aole to spend 5
a little bit more of their time keeping eoreast of the other o
issues in the agency.
7 MR. FOU CHARD:
I agree.
The re are things we ought a
to be doing that we simply are no t doing.
9 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNE:
At sone po i n t, a person is 10 just trying to live off previous knowledge, and they're 11 constantly in terac ting.
12 CHAIP. MAN HENDRIE:
If all they do is just take 13 prone calls all cay long, why, oh boy.
14 MR. FOUCHARO:
You wouldn't believe it.
It's 15 pretty heavy.
16 CHAIRIAAN HENDRIE All right.
Thank you very
- 1. 7 much.
OPE level estimate, it seems to me the staffing level 18 is consistent with the directicns of current discussions.
19 For whatever may happen in future cudgets, this doesn't 20 appear to be a time to make great hoorans here in diff erent 21 cirections in terms of the sort of budget 22 COMMISSIONER AMEARNE:
Let me just ask a question 23 about the program support.
I no tice you dro pped f rom '79 24 going into '80.
A1, is that because you f ound you really 25 didn' t need the money?
p s q 7 Ib I
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CCO'04 i2 53 mgc 1
MR..<ENNEKE:
As tnings
..e
- being run, tha t's 2
correct.
3 CO'.tM I 5S IONER AHEARNE :
And you see in the future 4
nex t year --
5 MR..<ENNEKE:
Tha:'s entirely po ssible.
It is 6
censistent.
7 CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
Congre ssional level, the 8
a udi to r.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I want to ask a question 10 abcut the Congressional.
Is anybody here f rom 11 Congressional?
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They're all down on the Hill.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My question really is, what 14 is the reaction that we're ge tting back f rom Congress as to 15 the acequacy of the coverage?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I th in k --
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't think that was a 18 budge t question.
19 (Laughter.)
20 CHAIRMA3 HENCRIE:
I con' t think it's an' erable 21 f rom our side, really, Jo hn.
I think we mace, I thi,k, 22 some useful progress in adding the two people in when we did 23 last year.
And I think, you knew, putting them in as being 24 primarily as having :he center focus of their duties to 25 serve, one for each of the commi ttee s --
re m a
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CCO '0 4 13 54 mgc 1
COMM I SS ION ER
.<d N.'iEDY :
Co we have one from 2
Mr. Mof f e t's commi ttee ?
3 CHAIRMAN HENORIE:
No.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We might need an extra 5
s pac e, then.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Since the five plant s hu tdo wn 7
startec and, w ham, we wen t up, you know.
We took the action 8
on the five plants and prcmptly got sucked into about seven 9
hearings en that subject.
Anc we're staggering cut of that 10 Three Mile, and I expec t, you kriow, it's sort of impo ssible 11 to keep up with.
Here's Ca rl.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Carl, my question really 13 wa s, w ha t sense do we get f rom the Congre ss as to the 14 adequacy of our coverage from the Congressional staf f.
15 Addressing the size of your office, I'm trying to get some 16 f eeling.
Is that an adequate number?
17 MR. KAMMERER :
We've had no complaints as to the 18 number of people in the o f f ice.
We have difficulty 19 sometimes with the information flows and found it's not 20 always the fault of timely notification with regard to the 21 number sys tem.
22 COMMISSIONER AMEARNE:
As f ar as 'you can tell, 23 tha t's an adequate number.
24 MR. KAMMER ER :
Yes.
25 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNE:
Ti..1% you.
O f
o!
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CCO'04 l '4 55 mgc I
CHAIRMA:I HE:iCRIE:
?!hy don' t we acvance to the 2
accitor, the inspector anc tne auditor?
3
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4 5
6 7
8 9
10 u.
Il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18,
19 A2 o
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I shou 1d no'te a"li'hils~ background to the request for l 2,
six.
It seems to me that the level of 34 in that office is a
~
3 level which has been discussed from the beginning.
i 4,
MR. MESSENGER:
Since inception, when we really 5
started to crank up in about September of
'75.
6:
CHAIRMAN HENDRII:
That is when the Commission said, "Here is the kind of inspection and audit office we need in
/
r i
3 this operation."
The staffing level -- as I remember, the num-9' ber was 34, bit it was felt, well, you know, if you're going to 10 run out and hire 34 people, you'll probably have trouble get-11 ting them all this year.
I2 '
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It was 34 back on the agency.
I 13 Was it 1800 or something?
I4 CHAIBMAN HENDRIE:
Back when the agency was whatever, l
15 '
yes.
l 16,
MR. BARRY:
this came out when the agency actually I7 '
submitted their own budget.
i I8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So, the request went to a much i
I9 '
smaller number.
i I
20 '
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
In answer to the question that!
i
,1 John asked here, however, when the agency submitted that number, 22 it had larger numbers in the cut-years in 1300, and it was at i
,3 a 34 level.
It represented -- it was assumed to grow.
l l
y' MR. BARRY:
Evenrually, yes.
Absolutely.
- J '* erst A eoor*tri, Inc.
f
- S MR. >ESSENGER:
So, it was 25.
It was gradually going
/
l l
pv2 I
57 i
I 1lj to phase into the 34.
Also, we have a chance to see what the i
2 investigative workload would be.
Now it's quite heavy.
i 3 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What effect is there going to i
t 4
be with movement of the EEO examinations to the EECC?
i 5
MR. MESSENGER:
Very little.
The investigative work-l 6:
load right new, I think, is 21 caseloads, which means that we 7
are still diverting auditors to assist.
People start ccmplain-i I
3 ing, and they don' t get investigations done.
9l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Hardly anybody complains when i
10 !
audits are done, except the auditors.
i, Il i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
What I am talking about, how i
i 12 i are those 21 cases are EEO cases?
. t < =,)
s t
- ~
13 MR. MESSENGER:
Zero, of the 21.
_m aj 7 -.-
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- 114 MR. GOSSICK:
We have referred four cases to the EEOC
- i) r.- -
s I l after this memorandum of understanding.
We anticipate somewhere c; -
C-
..- u:p 1.
- d6;:
between half a dozen to a dozen, we just don' t knew, more or l
[piZ3 17 i less, in the future.
They will do them in something less than i
18 '
a hundred days.
19 CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I was just wondering, would i
20 this diminish the workload that's now cn the OIA?
i 21 MR. GOSSICK:
One of the reasons that we've =cved, j
I 22 among others, is that they just weren' t able to take these on l
23 in a timely fashion because of sraf fing.
So, it's a matter of l 24 relief.
I 1:w.,e awe,ws. ice 25 MR. MESSENGER:
An item of note was that we had in s
pv3 58 I
i 1;
May and June ll, personnel devoted to TMI.
We currently have
{
l i
2 four auditors and one investigator in the Rogovin group, and' I
3' we have Ben Kelly, who covers the Kemeny Commission hearings 4:
part-time whenever they meet.
5 CCMMISSICNER AHEARNE:
Of course, that effort by '81 l 6'
really will be gone.
~
7; MR. MESSENGER:
So we will, hopefully,get back.
So, S'
what in effect the end result that it really suffers is on the i,
9' audit workload.
Here there are outside recuirements that have l
i 10 i a bearing on this CMB Circular A-73, which says that we have i
i 11 '
to have a plan -- at least the agency does -- annually, and we 12 !
do that through our annual report, and we should have a reasona-1 13 ;
ble cycle of audits.
14 So, right now, it's somewhere.
We're pushing for.. _
Q?i.> )
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i seven years. Although GAO has never set a standard for what the dnni ~179 1
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g 16 cycle is, they have criticized agencies where it gets beyond 10 c~o
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17; years, where offices would go without audits.
C. :_.
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CCMMISSICNER :CINEDY:
How many of these six people
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L EL_ _J 19 -
are auditors?
How =any inspectors or investigators?
l 20 '
MR. MESSENGER:
What we would do is bring them in on I
i 21 the audit side because you can go from the auditor to investiga-I i
22 '
tor, but the inves tigator really is very difficult to do audits !
i i
^2 ! because of the training.
This is very similar to what the FBI l 1
24 does:
They hire 510 series accountants.
Jim Cummings is one.
,;e.rm a memn. ix.
25 Really, you have auditing subj ects i n your school to do it, so i'i>i l
pv4 59 i
\\
l 1li the auditor -- and you always have an IG concept.
The auditori i
2' acts out the investigation because they have detailed knowledge {
i i
3 of the agency operations.
That's when you get into the inves-l i
I 4
tigations that go into program areas.
The investigator usually 5
goes over and works closely with the auditor.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
Talking about program support, i
7:
you don' t use any, so you don't feel there is no program sup-8 port dollars?
9' MR. MESSENGER:
The only thing we have is travel, i
10 really, and training, which I think is part of the admin.
We i
II have a training budget.
12 L MR. BARRY:
Have you not considered consultant help i
13 i, at all, or contractual help on certain things, to supplement I
14 your staff?
l
( cru J 7 )),
15 !
MR. MESSENGER:
We have.
' =
l E7 GR,16 l
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t MR. BARRY:
We've encouraged that on other applica-
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tions, but I don't think they 've used it at all.
ET pn 77 13 !
MR. MESSENGER: Cn one ivestigation we started to pur-i r[
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19 j sue it, and then it fell through, didn' t materiali::e.
Right i
20 '
now we are talking with the accounting side of the house and j
21 usually going out for possible independent studies of the l
l 22 accounting system and audit of our accounting system, because l
i i
23 in the financial area, which is a requirement of CM3 Circular l
i a4 73, we just do not have the resources.
I
,.se mi a.co m n. w.
25 I have a branch of four people that, in effect, covers t
r; f
I pv5 I
60 I
l l
l' all the admin. program direction activities, assists on inves-l 2l tiga ti c ::s, and does most of the work, which we comment on every i
i 3j draf t manual in this agency, as well as handles the GAO liaison l
4l function.
This is all done by these people.
j 5,
So, that was one area that we are considering.
6; MR. BARRY:
As you know, we're in the process of 7.
going through a GAO approval account system.
When it happens t
8l and the GAO approves it, there's no need to audit it for at i
9 least a couple of years.
I 10 !
(Laughter.)
i II l CHAIMRAN HENDRIE:
C1ever thinking, Len.
12 MR. BARRY:
Secause if you're going to have GAO i
13 approval, you know, an auditor --
(((j I4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The audit offices would be t
- c77{) 15 l,delighted to reach a level of understanding with you that
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they ' re all right, you don't have to audit them.
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H17 i MR. MESSENGER:
I might mention -- and the chairman
.s' r -- ~
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18 !
has responded to a couple of these outside requirements ccming
.},- '
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down; one is President Carter's memo to heads of agencies on 20 the elimination of fraud, waste, and error, where they' re kind j i
21 of pushing this ef fort right now.
We issued this at the l
l 22 reques t o f Mr. Gossick.
I 23 COMMISSICNER AHEAFNE :
You ar en' t including the Ccm-24 mission in that?
l
- :w ee a mo mrs. W.
25 MR. MESSENGER:
We have a duty.
g i
i i
pv6 61 i
i 1l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Let's see fraud -- what is it?
i i
2 MR. MESSENGER:
Fraud, waste, and error.
3l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I want you to knew that I have l
4 taken a position four-square against fraud, waste, and error.
i 5
CCMMISSICNER KENNEDY :
My public statements are clear, 1
6 in this regard.
7l (Laughter.)
I 8
MR. GCSSICK:
You may recall I asked OIA to undertake i
h 9;
to keep looking at GSA matters a few months ago.
I now have 10 their draft report, and we're in the process of responding to II it.
I was looking at the re.sponse last. night.
It concludes I2 they weren' t able to find it.
There are a number of things i
13 that were pointed out.
Id MR. BARRY:
Could you say that a little differently IS just a little differently.
! wpyy 16 I,.._. 3 i
(Laughter.)
a
- a, II MR.- GCSSICK:
Clean or clever?
Q
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MR. BARRY:
You were so positive when you said they l
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couldn't find it.
n-
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MR. GCSSICK:
But the report's been verv helpful on i
2I it in straightening out --
l 22 CCMMISSIONER AHEAENE :
The 3RG didn' t look at any of j 23 the C0=missicn offices?
N' MR. GCSSICK:
No, it did not.'
..seerv a momn. W.
25 CHAIEMAN HENORIE :
No f urther questions?
I think i
e is I
6
pv7 l
62 i
i i
1' that does us for this morning.
2 Thank you very much.
3i CO"MISSIONER AHEARNE:
Len, do you have any last I
t 4
words of advice for us?
i 5i MR. BARRY:
I will give you, before the day is over, 6
a substitute column for the chairman's request, in my best 1
7 judgement as to what the President's budget will come out.
I 8l CHAIMAN HENDRIE:
It goes under the column " Current i
9 estimated without supplement," and it ought to reflect 363, 340.
10,
So --
i i
11 MR. BARRY:
And we will pin in some new numbers for 12 !
you.
In fact, if you let me have what I just wave you, I will l
13 i pin them in.
I can do it today and give it back to you.
! Ej 14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right, I will surrender my e--.
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C ci 2 15 copy.
c,
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. -.?J16 i, CCMMISSICNER KENENDY :
Mine also?
I c:--
tM
- -[17 l MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
I will give it back to you e
18 :
this afternoon, and it will show you how it will come out,
(
l 19 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
One thing, just before we break.
i 20 It has seemed to me on these markup sessions,which l
21 are going to be closed meetings of the Cermission, that the 22 tapes or the transcripts of them should be held until the 23 apprcpriations act for '31 goes.
We ought to have Lee and the 24 ccmptroller and the appropriate T. embers'of the budget review I
ece,st Aeoorters, Inc.
25 group -- do you see any cbjection to office heads sitting in?
s
..pv8 I
63 I'
CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess at the mcment I would I
i 2 i rather just restrict it to the first group.
3i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I have no objection to office 4
heads sitting in.
5!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I can't remember what we've i
t 6:
done.
It seems to me, last year we in fac' took a cut at it 7j with Lee and Len and the budget group first.
AnyFpreliminary 8,
results that flow from that, I think the office directors ought 1
i 9l to have a chance to once more talk to us.
10 !
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You see, my feeling is that i
11 '
we had -- they had their cut frcm BRG.
They would comment to t
12 EDO.
The ECO remarked to us that they would comment to us.
~
13 I think we ought to go at it.
Then~, after we take our initial
[
-)
14 mark, then they can comment.
But I pref er not to try to get
?,)
15 {
into a debate with them.
l
__-e
-T) 16 CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
It isn't a question of getting a
.i 17 l into a debate.
I thought the question was could they be i
i
~
18 l present.
And I reiterate I have no cbjection to seeing them s-
',_a l
19 out there and listening to anything I have to say.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It was cresent, rather than I
i 21 participation.
l I
22 '
COMMISSIONER AHEA? LIE :
No, I understand.
23 CHAIR.1AN HENDRIE:
Unless there were questions.
s 24 CCMMISSIGNER AREA?2iE:
My cwn leaning wculd be "No. '
- s ensi a.cor en. inc.
e 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right, we'll see you this
a
.. P V9
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t I
64,
I I
I afterncon.
j i
2, (Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m.,
the meeting was adjourned.)
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y 9 8
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Page 1 July 30, 1979 Sul:linary_ _of_ _ACRS_ Budget Request - Leve l One I Positions 1980 1 p Requested FTP - 37 FTP - 42 Tenip - 2 39 Breakout of Additional Positions Requested 3
Direct Ef fort:
3 Technical Fositions Generic Safety Issues (1)
Operating Peat: ors (2)
(See attached workload data - pages 2 & 3) 2 Professional Suppo_rt:
Conversion of two temporary positions to FTP.
Incuinhen ts of these positions have been assigned to ACRS since 1976.
It is highly desirable they be converted to FTP as a tilatter of good personnel practice.
Total 5
II Fur _ds_ Reflu_qs_teg 1980 1981
.Prograni Support Funds 200jj (for DOE and Contractor Consultants) 380 2/
Trave _1 funds 380 410 1/ eduction based on decisiori not to use contracts or grants Rfor ACHS University fellows.
~
2/ Increase based on 6'e escalation factor and a slight overall increase irt stabcocolittee meetings based on workload volume p redi c ti ons.
Page 2 July 30, 1979 ACRS PROJECT WORKLOAD FY 80 (Man Years)
FY 81 (Man Years) 6.4 6.0 Original case work related requirenents Original C0ft est. (LIPP) 7.5 6.5 Current (7-16 revision) case work requirenents 5.99 6.4 Current C0:1 est. (LIPP) 6.86 6.42 (3/79)
(7/16/79)
FY 79*
FY 80 FY 81 FY 81 Standardization Reviews (SSARs,liOPs) 1 8
4 4
_2 3
5 9
11 9
13 70 79 94 92 Operating Reactors 1
3 2
2 lME/D0D Reviews 0
0 3
3 Fuel Cycle Facility reviews 0
18**
7 5
Generic Task Action Pl<in Reviews 7
43 64 Criteria and Guides
- Recently (7/79) reduced to 13
Page 3 July 30, 1979 14 Aft-YEAR DIRECT LEVEL _1_
ORIGlfl AL_(3/ 7j))
CURftEilT (7/79)
FY 80
~
FY 81 FY 80 FY 81 ACRS C0il Re-ACRS CON Res.
ACRS C0il Res.
ACRS C0fl Res.
Office sources Office Staff Office Staff Office Staff Staff iluclear Pwr.
Plant Case-work 6.28 7.468 5.97 6.493 5.99 6.856 6.37 6.423 All Other 7.93 8.56 7.63 7.87 IOIAL 14.21 15.398 14.53 15.053 13.62 14.486 14.24 14.293 LEVtL 2*
.81 1.91
.81 1.91
~
TOTAL 15.02 16.208 16.44 16.983 14.43 15.296 16.15 16.203 FTP request only:
SLP and alternate fuel Cycle work C
Page 4 July 30,1979 Smpary, of ACio Budget Request _- Level II_
I Posi tions 1980 1981 ACRS fellows Au thori zed 15 Temp.
15 (PL95-209)
Fi 11ed 9
Committed 2
Vacant 4
Total 15 15 II Analysis of fellow's Workload Staf f Years Required Tasks 1980 1981 5.67 6.58 1.
Application of Operating Exp. to Safety Assessment 2.
Evaluate Potential Generic Items 3.
3.
3.
Adv. Conii ttee Ini tia tives 5.
5.
Totals 13.67 14.58 IIA O_t he r L eye l_ _I I E_f fort 1.
Monitor Progress of Systematic Evaluation Program
.11
.11 0
1.10 2.
Systematic Evaluation Progralii Results
.7
.7 3.
Alternative fuel Cycle Review 0
3/
1.91 Total flan Years
.81 Manpower for the other ievel 11 ef fort will come f rom inproved efficiency and readjustments in II ACRS blaff.