Text

Transcript of 790801 Budget Presentation in Washington,Dc. Pp. 1-67
	ML19249B861
Person / Time
Issue date:	08/01/1979
From:	Bradford P, Hendrie J, Kennedy R; NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:	;
References
	REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7909050536
	Download: ML19249B861 (68)
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{{#Wiki_filter:C p NUCLE AR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: BUDGET PRESENTATIONS - CCNTINUED c Place - Washington, D. C. I Date - Wednesday, August 1, 1979 Pages 1 - 67 .i ec ee -,: i:::: wa :c ACE - FEDERAI, REPORTERS, INC. OfficialReponers Q .tu Nonh Cecirci Street 'l ( (; Wcsningten, D.C. CC01 NATICNWICE COVERAGE DA!LY 7 90005 053k'

1 = DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of th..e United States Nu,cle.ar Regulatory Commission held ee 1 i; in the Commission's .:ecnescay, nugus: on offices in 1717 H Street, N.W., Washington, O.C. The meeting was open to public attendance and observation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies. The 3ranscript is intended solely for general informational purposes. As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of.the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect' final. determinations ~ or beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Conmission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission ma.y authorice. (*t ed / / '. f ~' U L //

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\\.C. h4k,a_ s. w r Washincton, D.C. Wednesday, August 1, 1979 I 10 i The Corsissicn met, pursuant to notice, at 9 30 a.m. .. i BEFOPS : DR. JOSEPH HENDRIE, Chairman. li, PETER A. 3FADFORD, Cornissioner. i t. ,,.,.c..../.,, C ctmi s s i one r. ... D e. s: nan .2 le. ' JOHN AHEAPI, Commissioner. g 'JICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner. . r C r$ 7 "'G w -. ? m.

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3 i. i 41 i _ _OC__-_s _x .a-.S s,. e 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : We meet this morning to continue C _4 C,,.,. s a.4 o = %. 4.w .ne.::. u a _:: m,.. ...e a-e.,,,.. ,,A: 2. a, .w 'u o ta, _, s g.; we.e ac.b.edulad .h.i s ~.. c -.. _4.. ^, ".o ..*.. e " r .ho O# 4 -o o.# fi 5 Ac. ministration, the EDO o::_..1ces, Com=1s s:.on or t:.ce s, anc y .,g ". indeed we will do that, but we are going to start with the or' ., ' I C V. C ' a ^ ".

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o##4 Ce o v. m . b 3 which we were unable. to get to yesterday aftern,:en. Lee, do v.ou have anythinc to start? IC 1 MR. GOSSICK: No.

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A .u. v. 2 3 .. ' development area. I mentioned there was 1600 hours of 13 computer number, which was a correct number, but it was for 14 all of RSR, but just for the code development area, so when - = s *..~. 4 c..h.*. 7_.vea l.i.ed

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A .. n.. 2-ee.... a.a. '. '2 o. a.~ CHAI??.AN HENDRIE: It 's a help :.f you call out the slide number. i MR. BASSETT: We will start with No. 87. And we .I 7" will start with the waste management unit division. [ Slide.] Our division unit is divided into three programs: 9 i: low lesel, high level, and mill tailings s u b "J e c t, and in high level we are goinc forward into a substantial campaign of research and investigation in suc. cort of what are now

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emer9inc and clarifvinc_ objectives bv_ NMSS as we u' examine their role for regulatory process. They are reaching 15 some tentative criteria which I think have been presented to 16 you, but in general they have determined a course of action for their concentration of efforts to make themselves read; for licensing of high level waste repositories. 4 In this connection, we are going to engage in a a-. . e c, a-..

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v. e a r, and c.o forward wi-h heavv. enchasis on waste form, w:. th concentration on the substitute, waste f ormulations.

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24 of site properties. a .,e..es i-: e. . -,. r 25 It is the NMSS position that they would like to see !l V ) k4U L' y t.

g a l 1 four or five potential sites completely, scientifically 2' described and characterized before they will be willing to 3 consider ar applicatior for such a repository. 7 ' '"..~ r -

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m" " '" nr.. 7-C T.s"..T S S IO'4'r". 5 site properties? a 6[ MR. SASSETT: Yes. It's a complete characterization 1 71 of the site. We are in receipt today, as a matter of fact, of l their determination of what they feel they will need to know e e ^ about potential sites before they will -- 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSF.Y: What is it that you are 'I" actually doing? Thev are not looking at sites? !^' MR. BASSETT: No, sir. We are doins the studies o d ,_a,. to rinc out what it is we shou,c..<now about a s:.te, anc A across the ' spectrum from the start in geology. The past, U 15 present and future use of the site as best it can be encorpassed. 16 ' The design of the sort of shaf t and repository engineering that would be necessary to acconnodate that cype of geology, a that type of tectonics and so on, and then the actual operations '^ and 2.ts impact. ..ow does what we do relate v 0.,,,,. S,A u,.4 : R G,A A.b-....ra : n Ad 2' to what DOE does? 22 MR. BASSETT-Well, we have to know what the best 22 estimate is of the credibility of DOE 's submittal, when we =ase a' statement about the inn. ac cf certain ceoloc.ical .- - e. e r 4 - Ef00'feft IN. r ^5 features, we have to be at least abreast and understand the d l

? s ll i y'I I concepts that they are conveying to us, and that's the nature of our investigation. COMMIS SIONER AREAPSE : That sounds more like reactive, !lI whereas vour oric.inal descria. tion sounded more u..ke v.ou were o 1 "em~ 'd ".e. "2 5, ' -v.4 n 3-c deve.'of m o - e. e ~ ~.d. e..e..'- =- 'o'. _".". ~~ w 2m-m .g o.. Dnr. Lau... w.. a 6 o., o.,.

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o..~ cs. .v. ~..-.- v MR. BASSETT: More than that. He have to be ready S for DOE submittal with full knowledge of what the ha::ards and the safety aspects and the general operation considerations if y ;i are. ..": ~ " o s '- 4 o. a c a.i. - CO.Mv.'.S S '.O".< r R. n' u..r.. o."a 7 a '. m... e r. 8 I I f 3 In the characterization of siting, so hat NMSS 12' believes we have to have a handful of sites fully characterized, M' and so this is, as I understood what v.ou were sa.vinc., is the It research program is oriented at determining what must be M obtained to so-called fullv. characterire a site. 13 hat vou have to r.now about it. s. .. o -...a.4 o. _ _4,, ea ~ w..., c _4 y_ 4., e .w-.. a ,a. s o,,n,_=., c u,, *w n which you would then -- we would then give to DOE and say, "Here is what you must do in order for your submittal to meet our requirements for full characterization of the site." As opposed to as beinc readv. for receie.t. 22 MR. BASSETT: DOE has been spending hundreds of millions of dollars in this same area, and it is not our ... c. ~ c a,w,,,t i. 94 .**C** wv .Cwv .4. o 4... s.k., p D-wwe

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F 8 t e og q f I .u-a u a a .uc _an.o.s u.n. a a e.:., v, a,..._... _o- .uey a.,...-,. s e - ~..;.,. g-licensinc. review. CO.v_v.ISSIONER IdiEAR':E: Are we using different ^ ^ ~.. ~..~ a " ' m s, o a_-a. N. a .4 ^ -" - b a c '.<. 4.. ~ o..

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studies and m:.ke measurements that would characterize the 4 specific site for which the license is being sought.

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. e, -.d -a.. e =.'s .o D O.. F. h. a '- d s ' k.. e ~. 4.._'.; '"a e. 2, MR. BASSETT: There are some things we have to do right away, for example. We want to make sure DOE doesn't 4 4,, destroy the site in the process of characterizing it. That is a 5 verv. i n c. e r t a n t. o 6 That means what we have to do right away is determine 1 what needs to be known and what is the proper approach. It E,. might be that when v_ou sink a shaft, that will have to be tne sna,t that wou..ic ce usec 1:._ t,ne site is usec. 10 Maybe we couldn't afford to do extensive investigation without working right dnwn the hole. That sort of things ,,1 u,: needs to be c.eterminec. 13 MR. BUDNITZ: There is also the question of the farm of the waste. We are not sure yet whethe'r we are 15 going to have specific core requirements for the fuel, or 16 whether we are going to react on what they give us, and determine whether it's adequate. It's a question of whether we are in front of, or behind of, or on the wa. 2 We may be a 1:.ttle behind the wav,, but we are 20 struggling to make sure that we get th.ere. 2' MR. LEVINE: We expect an apclication about 1985, 22 as I understand. We will have a considerable amount of work . ~...a wo _.'. . '- e "- m e c' _ o s a '. - a_ c_ u _i _- =_ - _4o- "o ".".a'_, a..d d o n a_ ments that the DOE has to meet. . r. n-... wex..en m:_ 25 The exact timing of when they do their investigation, s l in

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= ic MR. BAS S ET : Well, th ere, in general, setting the general areas of investigation, and mom importantly, I think, i" indicatinc. to us their ceneral approach to licensing -- in ) I other words, what is their criteria, they have selected the w =s '_a_ _4 ' s a_ _7 _# a s '.k.a.i -, _.4... a. da #e..s e, m'.d e,'.m' '4 .~3 '"e okd; e-i ve 15 that the waste forn should resist any significant leakage 1e for the first thousand years.

7 This puts the --

CO!O'ISSIONER AHEARNE : Did you have an-.-tind o f a research program which led to that, supported that? 4C .v.e.. 3 A s.c .,m.. w in). 4 '.

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a-'_'" as a v av y s 21 result of some of our investigations that have been going on for the last couple of years, but more particularly, as a result of an extensive look that they have had into the ___ o3 ~ _=..s co _4.~e ^. a v^ s^ s "..k.e c o ". _-"2 .i.. ^^r. ~ v. .~ , ;. ec ers' A eDo"t's

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.0 1+ co=on agreement. There's a big dus:-up going on right now 2i with t.ne National Acac.e m v. or Science, wnich v.ou mav c.e ramiliar . - _- a_ ;4 a - _i c e _.. _' a_ c o....."-.. _" _ "2 s__ w _, ".., =..# . k.a_ - a_ ' s a _' v^ '. o.# d n = ^ what the proper waste fo = should be. 5 However, it is nretty well agreed tha: the waste o a 6 form can do a large measure of the protective job. The waste f o: m in the first two or three uses of repository, properly 5 studied, properly selected, can do a large measure of the long-ter-job that has to be done by the repository. IC But this does recuire a complete knowledge of waste forms, and we have not v.et c. o t t e.n the c. roc. r a.T c. o inc.. 'I. COM.v.IS SIONER GILINSKY : Sounds like something we Ought to hea'r more about. MR. LEVINE: This is c. art of a c.rocram evolvinc 15 between ot._ elves and NMSS. M MR. SUDNITZ: This work that this money is allocated for w-ll be physical research predcminantly; not all, -.mnd o# "_ ".4. c.. .c w,_, * ..o s *-.' v. v 5. e...i s * -";, - a_ ^v c ".e..._4 s '. - v, ' " 4 _e ud. i n ~ 3 [ Slide.] ..e.s. .w..e .a-w ,oye., w .a w .w..;s s a .Ga,.uo... v.

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n 11 41 l' We took the investigations and the interaction n b between the waste and its container in the rock. We then t have to take considerable interest in the propacation of any leakage through the hydrogeological area in which leaks -- a - k..i s.. a s

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' k. a. " a. a.l "...=.A a.a.". _4. v^... e..'. .e anA w 4 e 6 imoacts of anv long-term de.oosition in the biosphere of this 7 d waste. i, E The emphasis, as you can see, is heavily on waste formats, container, and on the geotechnical engineering which 10 has to do with the site characterization in the first place, . t.nen moci.,1 cation as the recositorv is out into it. anc These are the areas where the Uv.SS emphasis lies, 13, and we think correctiv -- 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: The reason I asked about 15 " NMSS is that when we heard some time ago complaints on 16 contractors, that we were uncoordinated in our approach. C n".U...o.v.'s"., u.. r.". ~' O ' r - W a '.* a. s.4 7.', e '. '..".1 ~, hoe.s from the ACRS. I' MR. BUDNITZ: I think it is a fair comment of a 2: vear aco for sure, and perhaps six months aco; but Jack - r .v. - +. 4..

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.,0 o. n. +.k.e.* e s 4 y. ... o n.. w..s m. a. e n +., 3A +.k..e .^.w n.., 3 2 w + w et Ai 22 environment in which we are working is budget. [dtice.1 24 MR. LEVINE: Addressing the ACR3 com ents -- ea er s' Re M *'*r1 I "t C. 25 CCY. MIS SICNER A2.E ARNE : Could you go back to the 9-l l /d<

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12 i other one you took off? 2 [ Slide.) I noticed that there is nothing rea.'.ly which would meet the ACRS cuestion, and I guess some other p eople 's s 5; cuestion on the criteria. It seems to raise the point that 1 M 6 '. one of the aspects of the program ought to be focused upon .1 t 7 criteria. e' MR. BASSETT: The program is formulated that way, indicates the extent of the criteria by the areas of emphasis. c n 10 ' As I say, the criteria for defense primarily is waste f orm in the i. mediate f ew inches of the repository. 1 i: COM'4ISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, would you address 13 specifically the ACRS objection? 14 MR. BASSETT: Yes, that's No. 88, please. 15 ' [ S lide. ] 16 " On the general co=ents, the ACRS comments were dif f used through some pages of text, which is compressing it i2 somewhat, but I think this is a fair representation of their cc=e nt. ___oe o na_, _h o. a C o.._c ,,s +u...,.+. ,a a. r,., A

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=n. " " a v, ^'"', 4 .e th:s was a review of what was submitted to the BRG, and the implication is, at least, that theref ore what we submitted / to the 3RG, they could not even find a cursory effort in s a.,. e.,, _:. c _,. : e .4 a. .y ic 1 MR. BAS SE'2T : It may be true, and we do agree ---_4e c

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orcanizational and started into beinc a waste manacement -..A"- -ev.iew q o"o., '.v'". 4 C ".. ^^..- 4ses -- 4 s ".h. a i -a # " ": '. '.". C C, acvises representatives, anc nat,s one c:_ our 21rst C. tores. u l,.p CO.Mv.I C C T.ONr"e. Ar.rADNr.- .".a"; b e 7 '.. r..i s e a".4.": " _" s, Av I have is what the ACRS, one of but at least the intression - are raisinc is, the ' ARC, at least on the the issues thev side of NMSS, has established what they say here i wha: -.a_-4a wd'.' ka, b u' '. -k.a.'s nc a s u y r ^..-.ed .s e - - -"# 'ha ~~ a ..o s. d.'P. O. Y.%. Ag..g .-Q- .M. N [ y y :.-..s. Ge m eters enc. S, g (*g .u g y o. _ c ".. u =. 'y' d-a.". s u'.4 " ' e d ~ ".. a *.- o .'s O r, .=".#. 2 i P00R MIGIAL 20

5 ,.4 l' 3 . w 4,, 'k.e e. c.' s s a*:.4..~: '. ".. = '. ' o" o " 3.. '. ' = " e s....a. ' a_ _ k...i ^ =.' ~^ 2 basis for that criteria, and they looked into the program and a c ..n e, a -e,/a__,,...e ~ c. +...=. .v.e2 u,, y c' _a a.. s a. a_ u.s. a +, -u u.., u. ~ - - m. ', view shoulc ce in a researca program, to tr; to :Inc out wha,. 5-should be -- what is the technical basis for criteria, and i 6 maybe those criteria are 1,:rong. 4 7 MR. BASSETT: Indeed, these criteria are emerging, but they are only emerging in plans that have been published in the last month or the last two months, and we have identified K them, we've got a proc. ram, and find that we are c.oinc. in the - -. e c. 4 o,.. e4 -4w. --3... ..a MR. BUDNITZ: What it slavs u.o there is abo.ut ri~ht. v This is a chicken and egg, kind of a bootstrap thing, and everybody recognized that the criteria arrived at to date shouic ce -- proba,cly almost surely are going to be moc....:.:lec p-some as we c.et into this. So we are c.oin. to trv to c,o

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.d.' '.k.. e ' o "m.d a' 4 o. s a - o. _4 ".., .=-'d. ~" '- .ese=-.. - not, to moc...i:v enem, but t,nat is c. oinc. to be a vear or two awav.. e MR. EASSETT: One of the ' ases of the 53 m.illion sreplement c ~. icenti.,'.ec :or "aste management was that it wasn ' t -- to the e-2I point, that it was decided it was an appropriate thing to do, 22 and we could really find a way to spend that money, and now 23 we think we can, and we are very glad to have that. N-A, . o...: : n a year ago -- w,w a,x.... inc 25 COMMISSIONER A~iEARNE : There's - hand waving at the n ,6;,, L u

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'.b..a.-a. ' h = ' ~.4 - k.. '. be o.# ~ interest in rev ard to your question. At the present time we 2 4 5' are well along with the plan; in fact, a schedule where in .I 6 certain areas of the chart that was shown previ*ously, we will* d 7n bring in our senior contractor along with a blue ribbon peer n a group of outsiders, experts in the field, and they will look a 2 .w,.

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.e -.n_,se c.4., .4 .w s. 10 ; DOE Program, and Ehey will take a cut at what are the logical best criteria we can come up with at the present time. 1

2 We are working right close with NMSS cn this, and a

then out of that, thev.will take the next step to identif"2 o.'. e a.- a a s w'.. e e "...e"y '.". 4 .'r. a # #.4 '..i ^. a '. e " # ^ -' s = e. e a d-ed -- v. a 15 - [ Commissioner Kennedy entered the room at 10:00.] 16 -- to improve the criteria. MR. LEVINE: I was going to say it's dust about a J .5 year that NMSS started to work on a rogram for waste manage-ment. The researc'. program is still being formulatef, so we 22 are seeing a sort of a midstream as the ACRS did. We think we 21 are headed in the right direction. Ecwever, the plan is not v. e.,,,y

c..,,.,,. e -.

.a 22 MR. EUDNITZ-. I was going to make a differe.rt kind 2' of a general ccmment, which.s that ab out a year ago when I . ve nemm. s ne. 25 got here, the first thing that I note.ed ibout this was it et, / J n{s c "1 't u

l a

o t1 o' I I was characterized by one word: chaos. It's not now in f perfect order, but we are on our way. I ar not completely A ~ confident that we can get in front of that wave that I mentionec a rew minutes ago. t ov, --...a .. - u. c. ..n .e,., s m .a s s y t,..- na-nn= v ...-.2 vv-1, c...w w m_. _ _e am4,., 4- -.e s, -,, s

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.w -e_ e I, v. 7H' order to do our regulatory responsibility right, is going to be

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one heck of a hard job. e..sa.=.' v.iew d- '. ". a '..i.. '. k..a. 'a .n,,' ..v. y w. o . s ea.ve.=- IC months, since Jack Martin became in charce of it, things are bec,inninc, to emerce in a more orderly way, and we are sure

3. a a

going cc be better off a few months from now than we were last year. .w...e . o.c. ., a., n - e q = _ m.. ,.w4s ,.nec.4,.., r. .v.R. -n 3 ,e in which is in the White House, had as one option submittal of a b' single site, characterization of a single site, which was resulting in license applications perhaps in 1982, and NMSS' position, which has been communicated to DOE, is there is ,7 nothing they could do with such a submittal. "here is no ,n 6w way they could cope with that, on two bases: db One, philosophically the single site wbri-als d#

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A au 4na- .o-i= e,- N'. se c ^..d a-v. gr e. have a place to cope with such an application.

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1 i 1 " ' ' 7. v.. '.'a .' a.. ' e see. 'e . h. = ~. 1, C N. ".'. : m. '.'. r e.. --m..c v w o.,.,. 2,, s, 4. i.c

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w,-a 4w., -.... ,,,...a.w..-...--,.4,, 4. -e o. - sa. vs ".. = ~. we did--.3.. '.he as'-, e -s-- - # 4 ". a "ea a, w = s.".' *. w ..c. w w, s e... _,,c... a .a .v.u.. -' s .k.. a ' a '.. =- -, a.d -a "2 u, n g r e... r. w, t. se u 5 the former, in that they have never really addressed how we 7' play this game: Do we have c.e:ense in ceptn, anc al., ts.r e e c 0... < _.. :. 3, o u0 " hi -, a s a no 2 ..e velv..' u 0 e m e. o n. ^ a " e e ..omm-. e .-...4, a ~d se c.. N. e =e ",".e'. - -. 4.g " e ". o '..". .e , 4- $~ ^ "- ' ".e 10 last three months, we've had, in the waste management review group, we have been all the way through for the first time the t n. steo.s that are necessarv. to c.et it c.oinc., and Standards and .4 .v. ~e : m..e casa =-c". a.d a..d. u' e o= .."es

.n

=-- -a ' ' a. ,a -.~ 2, .o a .m v g m e.n..,. v-15 CCD'ISSIOME'R GILINSKY : You are sayinc. to O.in it s 16 cown, tue program was miscirectec, or not cirecte,,. .v.... '._ :_ T.*' 's':. Y o ~. A.; e C. e A. a m.. e.,. w _ _ a m_ t s e.. e.,. _, v. 4.,. e., s,,. C..,,r. ,n.- A or G ...-..y--.. c c,.. ..e 2 s v. m.c ,.s v

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y ,s that didn't add up to what it should have added up to? .v.e.. n t.w. T Z. w.e ,. o,. a... u,..ne vec4-ce v-Re s e av c.., e. 3- - w n v. o as I said last year, as we came into '79, is small and bes described by the word ec'ectic. There were a few little c "m

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18 o. 1 .I W.i

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'o^3 'he.- a~ a. c-a"2 lo ' '_.d a- .d s, '.*o u k v^t.', ""a'* .. a v, a .-2 .e 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: When did this beccme evident? 6. 41 ia This is something -- 7q .i g.4 ...,. e ~ e e.. a e. w ,. 7 7.. r. e, m, 2 c. a n. a a 81 -,ve'. ...a n = ~3 e m.. a..'. ". "..=. w = o-d.i.e.'.ad " a s e = ".. e- - ^ ~3 ~ =.. c " b. 4 ". 'a 3 g}towardsomeusefulobjective, and as Bob says, all we could do is to find little pieces that seemed useful, but we couldn't i cet a whole pro 3 ram tovether, and it is onlv. in the last year d . -3 that we as an agency started to write a waste management program L. - - -' o " a - #cc" ed "e4--4-~ 'he age 'c" 5"' 'k4 ~s -a' =- -a- - 'r 2 u COM.MISSIONER GILINSKY: How is it that somebody 15 hasn't cobe up to us and said our waste management program 3 isn't a n v. coodr three vears ago? .es ,.w 2.. ,- S o-.c..mn do,,. _u..~.... a.. y.~ - 2 t,. s e.,., s, 2 ..n.n..

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better off in beina. ab le to "udge. I think evervthinc. we J "e k.aa d said abou* dor'c -.^a... x s a ": a,o"' o". --^c'.., x. a e..

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v. _3 y-. m u. s..... the problem. I think the IRG report was a necessary focal o.:.,. m. r -v..e.. .. e o_ ae-

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re 's seo _- - a.u v. ;.c - n s.. r n i .s . =.-,, a. x....,.x how we can cass this off to DOE. O..<, ', cJ .c

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19 o e-I d, MR. LEVINE: I'm not tryinc. to do that. 2' MR. ARSENAULT : Characteristics, for example, of 3 the program that helped illustrate the type of chaos that exis ted was a com:ttitmen t, for example, to the repository of i

l 5?

salt that continued for scme years, and had a tendency and .I il 6 - -... o x'., e A 2 a s. . o c. "k.e n sudd e.C ". 4 '. --.-,.a -4.e me s,e .m.~o e v. 3 d 4 7o was perceived that perhaps that wasn' the way to go, or 8 that one needed to look at a variety of repositories in order to select the best one. la It's had a tremendous impact on the agency's progra~.. i ,-"i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It would be one thing if .. u sa.id- .a e.ds ^sv^r c o.a.'.~ 4. w.4 ' k.. -. i e' -... e - m"-. "...'*'e A* c .: v haven't looked at, but I seem tc be hearing you say come in I5 with salt. i 14 MR. ARSENAULT: If they come in with bedded salt, we are not ready. ..m com. g e r o..en.. on.ryc t v.. We' e n..o ead_v

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3 one either, so, v.ou know, we cc throuvh these sessions year -1 after year, thinking that we are dcing the right thing. 'T MR. BUDNITZ: I don't know whose fault it is, because it was before I got here, but I am goin~ to cive v.cu v '3 an observation, and that is in high level waste in FY '73, .6-- c. .. b. . e o I Q - D D a

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' d, 4 c I don't rememoer those numbers. U o, i i u ,L yi

n il 1 .20 i e Okay, now in rY '79, the year we are in, we are n spending one or two million dollars in the Office of Research _ce _- w._4 - w, 3.. eve w s.a, _"e o'o-s^ma.w...i.3 w o.3 s c....'. w.".e _ e. a Now I don't know how that came about. C c ow_ __ e g r. oc_e..q .ge_.s+v, r_.w-. r_ o_ u.... a_ s " c, 3..e. '. _i. ' '.". e c .4 or c.entinc. on wl'n t.ne subject at hand, we are interest talking to the wrong people. And, Lee, maybe in order to resolve this, we should get the waste management people back, if people want to talk about that, but it's kind of foolish to talk to these people about the waste management program since they don't manage it. - i a COMMISSIONER CILI" SKY: Well, they had a piece of the research program. ~ COM.MISSIONER KENNEDY: Almos t nothing, l ~e Anybody who has a real comprehension of the waste 14 ~ management program of this government would understand that $1.2 million is not eve.- enough for the postage. It is a program of several hundred millions of dollars research, and for us to chase around with the notion that $1.2 million is -n u an enormous research program is absurn,. -T =L.s,.r..,. r.o,e c _. _2 _-_3. s_4.e _, ..as- _.s_...-. m._ ,m .w .s v. seven little proiects, none of which was related to the other sw one. '11 MR. 3ASSETT-The best one we could choose was -- 4 n.tr8 4 t^oc rier s, l r.C. based on one medium, the best one we could choose added up to f 9i s

/,. s, l i S,.,..4., _,.4 o n. COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY: We seem not to be prepared 2 on that one, ei ther. Why don't we go on. MR. BASSETT: Let's go back to No. 87, please. 5 [ Slide.] il 6 As you can see -- n 7y COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Can we discuss this further, E as enere see.ec to ce some c'::erence or view 3 . wou3c. A a.ccreciate the waste manacement n. eo. ole coming back to discuss 4 I lv it. MR. BUDNITZ: We all be here together. i I' Ll COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I think the program managers t l o u 3... e .w...o.,e- .ie ..e e.o a.1,x abou 4t. w .e w u u e I-MR. BASSETT: I'd like to sav that we feel the 15 present administration in NMSS is taking a real straight-16 forward look at this and facine up to their problems, and they are emercinc as a result of this. L,Oh,h. S s 0.. R a, h-.n, _... : and as one notices, there is 1 ar e: ~ ^ a very sizeable increase in the fundinc. .v.R.. B "v D N'."." ". 3 '

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.d ~. e a s e u t' itse,tf is that it is based on a notion -- 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: There's a concept -- --n eO.vv.~ m~ c ' 0".7 0 v.r.".."..rDV.-. '" h a_.- a ' s a wc.- A.

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.u e here, leadership. It .'.ow has some. It has had for several ..-eu.. a wners in e months. O I I g . */ >,,i t,

22 IE a ![ MR. SASSETT: Lc., level waste, as you can see, we 2 are addressing ourselves to a better understanding of a 2 disastrous situation that esisted in Uest Valley and Maxie Flats and Sher _:_leac, anc inceec mos t or the eastern low, eve., l a a 1 5i waste sites. o 61 6, We find that the situation is chaotic, we are f 'l7 p going to f ace -- the way the waste gets there, and the way I, Sq it is handled, to the long-term keeping of the f acilities. i We've had substantial need to investigate the 10 ' packaging and the handling and the hopefully compacting of 11 i' waste. These wastes range, as you know, from such things as i i' !I rubber gloves all the way to heavy chunks of metal, and there ,1 4 ..u is a suostantial neec to uncerstanc interaction or t.nis waste 14. with the shallow site. And it may well turn out that in moist o 15 environments, the shallow site is not the long-term answer. 16 And the more we look into this, we are being besieged by the states and by EPA and by USGS' to get in with them in a joint investigatory effort to find out where these ic sites wl:1 go, what can be done as palliative, 1:._ there is 2^ any, and in the long run -- 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are you looking at was te 22 forms there, too? 22 MR. 3ASSETT: Yes, we are looking at waste forms ^4 in terms cf should there be liquid in these drums. Frequently .. : r y.. a.cenes i e:. 25 there is sloshing liquid in the drums which leaks. It should ,p g' U D JUd

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.w e.. and how muc.. can we a:_:. orc to get s do we have over the shippers, _.,~u., ana so on. _i,. o _i _ . =. ~ *. ca.,. s,.es 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How do you prevent migration c:= n..u.a_ s.4. a,. 't ru._r.q.u e,_r..

m. g. e e s o er.s *o be svme

-u ~ 4, u.uv _r g e, ow..r.o -n a s i. 7 3 discussion whether all these resins should be solidified or E not solidified. Is that something that you are looking into? MR. BASSETT: It is. One of the big problems, in K fact, is that these drums come in with licuid in them, and

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".e v.-...e _4 m with water or other things tha t interact with steel. ~ COMB;ISSIONER AEE ARNE :' You are actually addressing a different issue. It 's more than -)us t s loshinc. lic.uid. 15 It's a much more near time cuestion. It MR. EASSETT: Well, in terms of Three Mile Island, Research has been consulting with ther as to how much water c can we get in and how much water can we cet out. E COMMIS SIONER 1."EAD,.NE : Who have you been dealing %.,._..a. S. .w o cqrmm.. c 0 0.r. w.. 3..e,.., t,.n.. Ame 2 r. - - 2 c. k., e -,a.e e. 2 .v..g. .n.

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n H 24 o l, of all reactors beyond some -- o C u.n' 7 D. ":."< ".. r".. D D. 7 " - '."h. a - a ae= -o"e'a o# o-m eoses, -+ one of uhem which seems to be c.ivinc some trouble, is the process that resulted in the leaking of the drums at Seatty 4 a w,. ae. a, .= .w...... -a,sm .=..---a., I f 6 One cood wav. to handle the resins is to make o il 7, concrete out of them, mix them up with sand and cement, just a S immobilizing the COFS.ISSIONER GII.INSKY : Is this si. ply imbedding 1 10 ! .s.e e.e..;ns.<. he,..,..ax,. 4 i'4 " -.....o"-----..~ *..a. C W...7.D.v 3."., 5: r.".,D P. 1'.r. Te " s *.- 12 and then there is a -- let's see, there is a crocrietarv Dow l process based on monomers or something like that; I'm not U sure about it. 15 ' But, anyway, there is a "eroprietary Dow process, 16 vhich I've heard a successful trial is being r.ade, so there are several. IE MR. BASSETT-It may be necessary 'to decc=.ission '? and wrap some of these places up as beyond help, and we have 20 to know what is involved there in sealing and ultimate care or these piaces. 4: se,.e v ge-

n..a,

--..a--;, wo-.. a.. e y.. , ~., 4-e4-u u. 2^ alternatives. It is possible that they should be buried "aa-a-co..s4da ak'" Aaeye =.4 n c a ".- k" - d a ' i" o - m-.s--e a--: ---r--. . g.< m =. m.., is: 4 1s a cessibilitv, and indeed all of these thincs rclied-- j.;rto c o, ;; i, e -. i.t t-s )

25 i !i I the program is the immediate local community, state, federal 2 government interaction program, trying to do this. We have recruited several very good people in the last year into our waste management section. We have Dr. 4 5, Ed Helm, who is very well known and effective, c.nd he has o l! 6 1. tocether a verv sensible c.rogram, and then we have suppcrt 2,at 17 [i from the states and the other authorities. u. E, So we are sort of proud of our owr. little waste 't 9 approach. We don't know exactly where it is going with these u E' existing sites, because we don't know really how bad off they '1 are. 31 .. o. .-o -] Now, in mill tallincs,.whicn is tne t.nirc categorv -- U' CHAIFl'AN HENDRIE: Could you go to 88 again? [S lide. ] 1; MR. BASSETT: Yes. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The lower left, last o n e,- 7 could you speak to the issue of the reduction, volume A number of people have expressed some interest reduction. in it. e MR. 3ASSETT: There is a substantial research 2I project anderway in DOE to accommodate a broad base study of this area, and we are organized with the NRC and EPA and NIH, which is a large generator of such wastes, to exchange informa-tion and cive advice. . ~ :.w 3 am,..., enc. ,c Would you address the situation of the last thing , 6I .)

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- a A.. n ~. 4,. u m,. s..u. a. -r. n w 2 ME. DAVIS. We have items in our plan to interact .4.a..2 1 y g.4. u.=. o C '.s- ".. 2 "* c..".,." e l a '..# "v. " "-

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... a. '. '. o # ~ 2 a ..i -o y. to reduce the "o,ume. l 5 The problem gets into incineration, so that you 't

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^# A o n ' *. - = "- o a. aa v^ *.". a. ".: c a. v. 7] ahead very rapidly on that right at the present time. E., MR. BASSETT: We have one croie:t of our own only, anc t.nat is this thermal suminescent cetector wastes, wnica I Lar~e in c.uantity, anc we are exp orina wav.s or c1minisninc. l C' are w j] Y, u.u.. a u. l ..t. cir.,erent waste.crms, ..ew eve r, tnere are many, many n 4.- o and each "equires a different attention. ..o CP. V d d A O ' ~r a an-'t a' ~.su'. - 'An e l' a s :.':.in e o n O'ne r ig"ti.- a~~~ u a p,annec 15 hand side seems to indicate -- it says research project i 16 and 1980 supplement. At least the submittals I have don ' t indicate that you have reques*.ed an '80 supplerent. M MR. BASSETT: We believe we have requested a 53 million '80 supplement. c n,,.v.v.r S c r. w. r e. a, :r - n yr. r. sae. ..,.o. up G..oyeg da + v .. n. o .u**. L-7 C' o ".' ".

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ns - s2 n. p .a 21 C o... 4 3 o.40no. ,.i .i s o."..' V, ".h A. 1 $ s '. '..h.." a A. o " .# ^ L' " "^"*'o~ ... s...n v. . x :..., a.m.,m mc. 25 we could really have the confidence to nave a program that

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.- a a _ a_ d ~ 3 2 by us as a pleasant surprise. We were ready at that point. 2 We weren't ready two months before that. CHAIR G: EENDRII: The disposal volumes from TLD 5' are not the badges, it's that coluene based scintillater n 6 fluid that's the pain in the neck. o. 7 :t .u.R. uAS.c.=_m_~_ m.ha".'e co.- e c ".. e _: we coulc,. nave No. 89, se will have ac...citional ^ .'4RS cc =ent. 1C,; [ Slide.] The alternatives in shallow land burial has not 3,- a been funded. We are able to start this in '80, with 1 successful achievement of the sur'olement, and it will take t.nree :orms: 1 M' It will take the form of ocean disposal, deeper l ~' mine disposal, arf alternate methods of shallow land disposal. .r C '. a~ aA A.-a...,sa_" o u _ ' c ck.. 4.. A a_ c ^...._i.e s i o. 4.. - a.". . w.o. s A long-term care. This was partly an identification problem, because it's already included on the sites suitability ,n studies at West Valley and Maxie.rield, and we are going t do e, some work on the West. They also addressed themselves to incineration 23 and massive digestion in reducing volumes and wastes, and we A 4 are going to be involved with NIE on an incineration program .,c,.-e.ea u,a m we. "C 4 m. I 7 Q,, -.. A. g o. gwp,. m 7 m e..n.4 n a 2 4 g.J 4.- A mn f4 7A .a n. - A g._ g kggg .0 g m

r.

.43 ~ 't b h, t, t \\f

l ~8 \\\\ n modeling effort with EPA, USGS, MIH and DOE. Then in the last comment, the ACRS addressed themselves to the need of equipment for assay of waste .' packages. The idea here is that when the package gets to the a 5 site, they'd like to be able to look at it and see what's in it, I 6 and we agree in principle, but we can't quite figure out cuite 4 _3. k e 79 how to do it, and we wou.,c. 3 u.,e to 21nc out -- we woula. 1 ,i 5 to find out if it is indeed even possible. So we are going h to take a look at it. 1 10 Can we go back to 87, please. 1 1 a. { _c _'.4 A-e.] n 9 CHAIRMAN HE'iDPIE: If you can afford the film, whv., 4'l a .w

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c. _4._ g g _4 A a. a.a ., ' a_ '..o ".H. o..- one, .=..1^- 15 flowing to the low point, that's a hint. 16.' [Lauchter.] u ~~ COMMISSIONER AHEAR';E: You could slosh the dru-. and ~. see if it sloshed.

*.ae a w'. - q,a e s 4 o..

sc.n. .:..w- :..:. . e.. a 20 Section 211 of the Atcmic Enercv. Act coming up here in the --..ds a-..o ..ia ad u.de- '. s 1 ayy.oy 'a-4o.s b.4 sa"s, " ".. v^ e. 2: act may be used for the purpose of providing for licensing 22 ac.croval of any disc.osal of nuclear waste in the ocean." n* A m.n. e n.. n,.,. .w.u.. e%. a_.- 4 u.. a r e s :- nn. _,, -na ~ ,, o o . n.,. s. a v -v c -ewa Eeaccrees inc. '._4 ".d o # - 1.' *. *. 1 e o d # ..o ' o, ". b.a '. ...4 "y ".4* 4us'- 23 w.. ..t s jug. 2 3 ; (n i g U DUJ U

k - d 43

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q 1, slide ri~mh: on throuc.h. We are not in a oc n.t:.on or . censing 2 or approving cisposal or waste. o ,.h. o

b..n A.l e -

k UO.u y T..C s T.C r,r o. .,.U..r n*.p =.mr. T. s n. f 4.- ro-..a 9 ... a. = .s i 4 licensing of that? o 5-Cu.s.7 o u *e u.r ". w' 2 7 7 - L'a_ ko*n' c' o. a 'l o 6 ~ COMM.ISSIONER AHEAP2;E: I thought we had responsibility il 7 !! for this stuff out to that area of the actual disposal was to o I, e4 be in. ? CHAIT0'AS.ENDRIE : The way the licensing works 10 1 under the -- what is it, Marine Resources and Sanctuaries ld il II O Act, or somethin~ like that, you can' t d=p radioactive waste v 12 ! in the ocean unless you have a pe:mit for th&t dumping fro-' d ,a,

. Pn,.

i l e-On the other hand, when v.ou c.e:.vour EPA.cermit, 1 15 you get ready to send it out, you can't possess and take 16 the waste out to dume it unless you have a materials possession license rrom us. CO.vy.IS SIONER A~iEAPSE : But the actual dumping is EPA. m Ih C U.n* T. o.y .A.'4 U.r* w* m R.T.r V. e s, k a4. s,.4 rw k. 4.- 1 . in ..i - .-"i".".o_- ..".4-7 a v-" _= c, a - v- ",-.' A ke 20 n.vw av,, ' '., n o ' s" a_ .a a 4 read to al, ow rese arc.:- work connected w:. tn cos sib., e oce an 22 disocsal or not. Anybody c. o t a n v. idea? w. v. o s vi,r R n, u.r.n PsLr. .- w..e, t. 's... w...w...o_ d 3 _:.- n e, -u 4~ MR. BASSETT: One last though on the wastes. ac s,. e+ peace m s.inc. 25 One of the problem is they are frequently toxic substances. .) s g,I ,w i

7n +v i ll ? h go_ a e an.e e.4aA g _4 4_. k... k. o _ea c 4_. 6 k. 2 4 w k..m_, _.A_. _ a a1..., _4 4 , a. a1. s u . _;,,.s.,,--..

m.,

_.am ca, _.e s,vu-s ,ces. A: . s a. ..e.iave 3 3 .s.. .c _ = -.4 '. _4 .4. n .k. a_ =.'.'.4 n c.s..d.ia_ s, a..d. 2 c ^.. s _4 d e. ar ' e _4. _ a. e s *_ _4. m , t r v. i n e. to find out in connection with cace S-3 and cther .u.i.. s w..a u.a_ a e o s o l e _: _:e c. s _c _-.... _ a n.. n.n.. a...a,a_.:n.,. u a c m v 6 4-.._e _s _n-k o. + a.4 _7 _4.. s s _4 +.,a + 4 o n. e n 7U In this connection, there was considerable interest 'n tne 2au,. acre,eet when the stor:- xaroke a week or so ago, so ~ we have jumped on that with great interest, and yet that was one of the best met.nocs known, anc une cam r a12ec surpris:ngly and suc..cen,v. i. This is the sort of thine. we are facing.

Acain, l

there's a substantial local interes't in these activities, .4 and our research effort goes along the line of finding out i 15 what sort of aerosol, what sort of gas comes about as a result 'd o' this material being placed on the surface. What does ground water have to do with it, how much danger is there in 4 ge ttinc. into the c.round water. And as sav, when the dam b r o >. e, a lot of it went into the surface water. The stabiliza-tion, c.rocer methods of decommissioninc., and finally the health errects c:. these substances. That accounts for our waste management crogram on 7- ._ w.. e.. _4, 3__ _,74 ngs p og-,... e_. .,,ve _:o )., y. u. R._ :. ..: w v. u A u.. m ..v . N = *' V9 p UtDC9 f t91, t f1C. 4-MP.. BASSETT: Could we have No. 91, please. c .y/ s Oi iv t) i

31 o o 1( [ Slide.] > a.a.,ss n. . u.. e a -u . u..;.r. e

u. 4 3 p s o. te u....

~c o.. m v. 2 .~ a, s *.c .o o..e - = s. 4. o... 4. ... ~.4..~, c ' d o '.'.* o- '--~*-> - -., ou-v. -.v 4 rec.uest for '81 into a supplement for 'EC. The money was 4 1 5 ! simoly taken out of our rer.uest for '81, and *te feel that more sensibly that monev should be taken out of our recuest for '81, o ,.1, '82, and '83 tocether, slightly more -- /, sl <l CCPS.ISSIO!!ER AF.EAPl:E : You mean $3 rillion ought to g q 9 be -- 10 MR. EASSETT: Three 'earm, and that would give us slightly more in '91, which vauld last tc --t 9.ese p rograms l i y' going. R MR. BUC:'T~- 5c e have appealed, I guess, 1.5 of 14 that d.fference with 12.1. 15 COM2IISSICI!ER AliEAP2:E: But you agree with 3 million 16 to the supplement? Where do I ask -- what's the proper place to ask mv cuestion on s'eent fuel? i. ~ MR. BASSETT: Right now. e.o.vv. g.e v or-q a~r, n. ur. Oka"2

b. a.

n' C P..C, 4. .".e.4 - 1 .w. n-n ,. n-21 comments, as you r.now, raisec the cuestion there was adecuate funding as part of the research progra-is concerned. o n e v ou,.a ..o u. - ~.i n.. w ei. j e

w

.g .: n,u,.. A.w...a

u. 4, '.,.

u. 2 s

=n=Dw.-r-.,. .o 4 .v.o. -v .a v.

. ~ = ~.... a.x... i r. :.

~5 even in DOE, very little effort has been devoted to the idea .',,' J iUu%

32 a t i i that both retrievable and permanent storage of spent fuel is a 'e e .# oun ..". =

.h. a -a 4

_l a.-~ e : a.-*. o #

k.e.' ^ n

. e...- - e ' a., '4 ^ ^ ve-v, 3 was substantially no interest in that at DOE or at NMSS, or even our own research. 1 u. yo

u.. e n o r-~

g n .A e,,. e.,., we.., n. e s..n.- s o. A .1 s... 4.. ~: -, - ~ ~ ~ ~ - u u .e, m .u. it ae. uo.w _4 e..e a: n r R. s*^- =~a o# e a ".. o.s --o.. e, ... _4 n -.: c.. a t. 4.. 1 7 o, ruel whicn goes -- Eq COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is that reflected in this budget? 4. g .v..a. n e c r..

v. e s,

4s. -n-- ,i C O.v v._7 C.C T. O".. ?. o. n' u..r.n' o" r - - _4 n c e o "". 4 ^ u e _' " ".n' e A" 0._0 _4 s c e 12 'J looking at.the budget and didn't see it, could you name -- 4 7 l '- .v.e. n SSr... W e ". a ". a da*=4'e e-- .=..s. - - a.. -n 14 .,..e g._ oy.4cs w...a ye a-o. a, o _4.. a s* u v,. .n l' MR. ARS ENAULT : I am looking at the soluble H uranite, whic'- is already underway, and second to assess spent ue. d.. a= .4~.~: c.' ad d.4 n, a. ~A '.4..=.'.'", .h.e a"est.o. ^# 4 z 'E s imu la tinc. the repositorv. conditions, seeing what their effect is on claddin~. These are the three projects we have underway. e 'C u.. m.'n e-A o - 4 s.4 o e 1, e. 4 4

k. a n o "L..j o -

.v.. -. o n.C,C.e.m m. p .o n -- --w-e- ../ e 71 a e,jec. en. a.1,, a _4n-4 s.e .l e n 3_.., _4.. w a 4 o.., 2 v. s e.-.. - . ay -e. o s e.. e 22 c.,o'. _s s qa.4, .n., D,, c,,, < e s _4 ~,4.:1' n a n. e C. v v'. a-' Oe.<r o.. n-u..r n.p e.r. .~e. 4 n' e2 a.' a- -, _4 .- w.. e _4-9 er O.- _ s ~, n., : u a. _,.n y m _. _. = <- u. o. -,.. o n.. g, y o ....v.- .,v. g g,;. s u.. g s y s -o. a -n.. u.. o.._e...., 3,: 4.c g. 4 o a " e o - e,'-.".'." -.4. a. #.

a c "y.' e _ '.. '".e

" e o ' o ".4 c a ' '*a' ~." ". '. # " *7 " e '. h 'y ,a - - 3 ~ ' .p I f y / mlv /

,,4J h o .w... a ., 4 w 4.. e s e ,, u.. .v.u. B L,D e. u m. e. v_ o,., .4.,4. - e *. o_ a ha .4gh. a. ..e. L O.m.. - - .r O >.4 .>,.. :..r nR =. L,. ,.o,., n....,_.., -r- ~ ..s s MR. APSNLLT: Fe have asp.ed for more people. We a.- a. s u -- ' a..e.. ~ 4.~ o" s~.a## 4 -- '.h.a m= ea, c'.. A w e a o "-.' ".'.4 P. a. *o re _ do more alonc. those lines. e w .s1R., r. r s..r,. I a, s. ha.,.e o sa.. w,. 1 ... e..,. o. e_ v ..i.

o E

treatment of the SA_rR division in the last several v.ea s has a u " ".. a.- ....=.1 ' e ". e.'. I ' ". e m.. ' a_

" ' s y o.i...

o. ". e.-v.

r';e - *. u s

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v. ear in the budcet review and that's what v.ou are c.ettinc..

r MR. S'.'DNIT Z : The number of disciplines required .s 1; .d s.. ' ' e '<'e e.- e s e.. ' e ' by o.. e o #. e a "..,. -. - *.

o... a. *..4...". a '...

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e I-MR. BASSETT: Goinc to the environmental reactor s 'S effects c. roc. ram descrir. tion, ius: to touch base on the s 16 waste management area, we are calling on rearrangement o.f money a.d . "..- a a. r e ^ .l a. *o ora _ wi * "...-.e 0.' ~.. 4.'.'.4 c.n .m " e ^.1 a_..e.... ^ e e O When we come to the reactor environmental effects c.ro4 ram descriptionr we are requesting a subs tantial recuire- ...e.., an .e - 1.4pp ._o ~o n.m a2. 1'e .4.. o.c .k..e e.4u.,1,.*4 n. A ta 7 w y w._s. a. .. a Te>. ... c. = a >.. L..v. .e..e v.4.r. P. e r ?.v v...e r.v.. e* A u ^4, - a a.-.o - 4. s. -".~.. a. *. a ~ i o n a - a_ a '. 7 s ~.". a. 4.. vou. = ~ e a '. 2^ MR. LEVINE-Ours, and some in PAS, and for instance, what would be needed to follow the course of an e- . u,,, a, w.,,s i-: 25 ac 4de.. wo"'.d - c ". a" ' " " e .' s P. a s.e e s a-..e... ,p y. ,,i r3;1 6 ,e t / Ij

3,4 it 'I ..e ..an.e e.. 1-n men.,'. e.s6._en*.a4_4o.. w w 1i u B Lm o. m e, p .v... s. e.7 a ". _' ". " c'."*b.. s ' " #.4 e s. 9 .v.n. .r r.e.e_- s

r.

v;e eo a n, * *-. o *..- o..s. c *. a..- -_ ^ ^ v.u.- S.0 _ C"... R G r_ ? 7_".. 0 7...?. -..s..e ..o,-- g os 4r.,> ... r..s... r.. n.4 4 2., .v... u .sR. a y v u .._v. e - r. o. m q g... d g. v.. D.4 A vo". - . ~3"ess '...="; c .u- -n., _ o 6 have missed it. Did v.ou cover that? 7o MR. LEVINE: Yes, we did. We have a study, a planned E study, in our PAS group. b e.i **

h a_

4# O C o.v_v.*.* C S T O * *** Q. C - ? T " S v,'.?.. 1.' n.. _1 A_ s v . ~.. ._v 12 j you are talking about hardware, would it be in that -- MR. '.E'II"E : It's not hardware, it's really to say 'I l what is needed to follow the course of an accident, to assist 9 i .ge e e.., a., e 3.,a";eA.. 4 '.c " e a_.r, a u' - *. w ,a _4. w a ; n. ..ow gg. o -x. r e a a we es.4 ne a ,fe,. 4 _. o,v. e m.: s m, e.e.. esea,c. _,. a._.. w, u w o.e 3 .v3 vv. ...e i-ago. 16 MR. BUDNITZ: It's not ins trumentation development, per se. C C.9,.. S c-u.. -..s.s r n u 1 A.s S.... : I was rather surpr:. sed in n: the Lessons Learned group to find tha: -hey feel there is no ~

C adacua a 4.s. -". e *..*.a *.4 ^. a", ' '.' a'c '. e - -....e -

_4 a ' '. ";. e.-o".44e

^

v. 91 u4s. 22 MR. BASSETT: In that connection, we did work with ~~ Brookhaven ir developing an item, 131 detector, f or use by .t.w... o. 4.. m_ s. 4 ..a s,,,. o_ a 4.-- ..v. w,.. .= _ o_ ae. - _- c w _.._.sc,-_-... o. ~.... .,.,.,..w w,.,s -e the oniv. case I know of. But that was a ain environment. I\\,! I

-o ,I .a,,i. . a o, .42_w.-e w ,,m.....,,S,AC.. R u.,... lu.,. . v..m s. ... s anv e. . m. a A s 2 MR. LEVINE: Measure of activity inside the plant. MR. SUDNITI: That happens to be one of nany other ., things, one of the fields of research I did personally. I know a lot about that, and I didn't agre-with that comment, that 5, 'l 6 it was not available or could not be readily made available. o r! ?. I 4,,s. d.4A 84 a,3 e e w.4._k.

h a 6..

B,i COMMISSIONER GILIUSKY: Could you send me a brief C note on that? It's a subject I'm interested in. l 10 ' MR. BASSETT: In the environmental reactor effects program, we address ourselves to the wide range of the effects l 12 hl of the environment of reactor operations, and potential b. si.ing or reactors. 14 i This is the o. lace where NRC comes un. face to face 15 with EPA. We do not find that these programs are in general i 16 very well -- not too sympathetic to ACRS. They tend not to .ce interested in socioeconomics o, sitinc -- id COMMISSIONER AHEAP.NE: Comments -- I? MR. BASSETT: And indeed, when they gave us the 2: c,a. a'. 5e SoG,

c o '. " s.^

A.. '. ~.. 4.'.'.4 o... n'. D..9 'Ad-a. o da- ' ' e "; r .n 21 . w 4 -. a.d. said 4 '. ' s r. e. # a. ". *..' ": e.4... - ' a, ' " s..' o a". a o t'.. '. b. a ....a s 22 socioeconomics. We concur. And I'd like to show you a 22 slide -- we concur with the observation, we concur that we coulc maxe it :. : we stayec cut o. One ::.elc where we are ., #,,.. u,0c....,,,,: 25 required to be by EPA requirements. 7- -{9 . i i a. c o

36 a ..=._.i s a. -= _., ..eage. -,;, a y. a. ..,.,.o .e e .~. re.,_4de.] ,e s.-..,, _4,..... _4... c, .c_. ..w..es _4 s _w. e

a. n *.*.4. w... o... = ' a # _' a. -. a.

'. 'e.h a". e a s ub s =.. _4 a _' od"; wo.-P., w i c _ w.. _4 c.. _,' s e.. _ c.,. a... a,, and = s" b.e * =.n _ _i a ' 5 a, --o. e w w m..n,.. 2-6 body of work, a large amount of which is environmental in nature, and as such has no carticular war-sconsor exceo. t E by the licensing people who have to f ace these environmental questions. 10 .v.g. r ry...r. .k..a.v have a s ^.s+., M. c..o. s. e MR. BASSrTT: I say the licensing people have to a ' o " e ~.".e s e - k ' e. s wk..e n ' k. a " a.e "~.ou-".* "me.d.. 'he v=..4o"s e e 3 wa..

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'4 .e . o.~e sw. e s. T m even though I have Budnitz' -- I've only been here a year, ..'2 too. ]A i If v.ou co back as far as '78, SS.C million was the e, d, a..s. o,.,,. w,,2 e ,,.,s ,, o_ e. .- c w-,. a..c _. C. y o,..,e. _4. w;s _e_4 i ---r . 7 amendment amounted to.:.5, and we were left with user A certified neads cf S900,000, sore of which went into '79. / 4., a. .k.. a. ^y ^ _i.. ~., w e h a d ;...'. w _i.".. ~.".. a. ""d-a. 2 _,._,s a..a. _#..a..., w a. - c.. :;.7, .a.n d o "- .= "..-. _# = _' '_ .s.=.-o _'.') 2 c...a. m of these things tend to ace and c.o awav. Licensing people w.i.' _' - ". ~.k. e. o"* o. ass.4s.a..ca c o. *. a *. ". s ca.. a ".".. i. s ~ =.# w m. m.,e....,, m cecause they haven't got the take whatever answer ~2'.e" can cet, e m. ^. ."..a. , c,. c. 3.g e a y e -^s a ^".. '.k.. a. - a s a_ a '. c' c a_ s,.=. c. a"..a ad- ^ ~* , y

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h. e a^

^ - ~- m 1 we are not asking for any blue sky activity here. We just i' want enouc.h to c.et our backloc. worked out so we can carrv out ... o. 4.a. s.'".c. - a. o r.'. e '. ".. 4.k.. we nee'-. .w... e e,.m..r.. - w..w.. .w e .... ~. '2.. hat's a verv. short sur= arv. c-what :.s a verv. lonc u u,n cn.n.. e.,,

s.,,, 4...o..

a 4 m e u c. .o '.c r..e ve ve e. u.e.,.,.,. .w4 ,.ea a e.- L =n,,,....ar. i.R. u ....a y 16 vear, that there's a shortfall in this area, we have needs that we are not provided, and user recuests to b ack :.t all. a u,,f _, _c .e. c.,so ea.:.- ,, cl. a. .v.R. -.. m.m.. i e ,1,.., ,vs our ranking, this is not the hic. hest o.rioritv within our

e. a r.

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'8 g h a le 1 in which we are incorporating, and then they have this ccmment 2 about reducing support for socioecological and our answer to tnat is this slice. COMMISSIONER AHEAR2;E: Could you say a few words 5 about the radiation svmmetrv' y o 6-MR. BASSETT: In that field, we are doing studies 4 7" to determine what the result of accident acute exposures 8' could be. MR. ARSENAULT : There are two areas: One is the M impact of relcases, but the other is the occupational exposures. The improvements in those symmetry -- I'm trying to summarize ._a briefly -- largely relate to finding out what the effects are n U of such things as age and sex, and the health effects. The nature of the deposition of the various radionuclides, 15 where thev are deposited within the body, and how that affects 16 the done and the health ef fects. Dosimetry now is largely in the area or occucational exrosure. We have work going on in neutron exoosure: dosimetry 'e in that area is notoriously inaccurate. I can get into specifier cf projects if that doesn't answer your cuestion. 21 r e v.v..c.e r c u.. .s..u. r..c..y r.. Do "ot' _4.. e _ # = c e u 4 -o. c

_' ";

ere A w. f 22 with the various branches of HEW that are also working on exposure and health effects? MR. ARSENAULT-We try to stay abreast of what CV ;*"Pra' RdOOrfP's i mC.

C o

is going on generally in the field. I think the direct J .,E,-

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w a. a."e i". nead ^#. -4 v. 7' CC."MISSIONER AHEARNE: Now would this also be ~ the item that NRR feels they confine any instruments :c, apc'y ..:de.*a.~e c# " e ' a ' s e +.- k. ' '.- ."m '.'"-.'# .c.'.b..",.,,s-

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4 r., a. e MR. BUDNITZ: We could support demonstration -- I'm ".o. su*a " b. ' ' ' s " o a.'.' "; ' k. e ".4 g k.. *. wo".A -- *^". ". a_ c a. s s * *.i.' v. ~ o i ".~ ..v '^ all the way to hardware. ...e eo;ec.:s,e m. w - 4 ', 2 C O.v.v.~.c.,.q ~ Cv. .p.

v.. =. t - ~.. : ",.

Ts'.w.a e s v v - e c... _ o..a A . o. z. g,. i-MR. BASSETT: In the environmental area, we are I6 interested in what's involved in the way of residual cladding i:' the reactor system, how man" manpower would it take, are there stee.s that could be taken before vou actually start to cut the system apart, c.,eanse 't, anc re uce the amount c:. burnur. when that han.c. ens. Also what is to be done with the parts. e-y n, n....,.. .e.,.ac..r ,, _. a.4.. o.-.a ;. a.,,... v. .v.; s v. w o m e s o.., ,,...e o w.a s. c., s :o.., e an .w2. ~. s,v -.. 3wa, 4sa... .e.,. w..,, m y ...a y... .. u.. , era. 4 aorte's I ra :. U CC?MISSIONER AHEARNE: Could I ask -- ,q l l Q' 4 IJ ,.s'

40 Dec _4__4,,,4,,. _,.,_ 0 0,.,,. .7.,...._.. v.... ; ;. m.. 3 n. .s. ..s .....as...... ...v... MR. BUDNITZ: Part of this deccr=issioning 12.ne is ..,o.. .c,,,...s ..w. a.h. o . -. -,u s ,s, s ,2. ..w o. .... j.2,. .n a..a s .v A e v.... 4 s a 4. C.. 4. g a c..,1 3 4 -, a. .w.c w v yw. e. # e,. + m e. a:. .4, , 4. 'n ', a. 4 p; .. n.. (o~ O S S r r ~s. e.m %. a e s y. .m. u the deCCi"nissioning. C v'.v.v.7.C..C ' C'..'r R m' 'a..r.m' o.r - "'S e." R ~", as ".ao ",e e.. o ^.'. ' a. d . a out, took a reduction here, if I read your cornents. Was it primarily because it was a low iter of research? r y. .T r u.r. u..h m.. , ' m.. a_ o.i n e..

o a =- k Ra ".c.. 4 + ". *o

.v.n.. r 2 . u resc.ond to that c.uestion. .v 3.. s.v. t m. u.. 7. w a s p a '- *..' ; +. "..'. ~.. I *. w a o- ,- a.-.' "; because we felt that a lot of these siting type issues had mav.be'less o iority now because it was less like lv. to be construction permits coming in, and also we did some asking arounc a_out user requests and some or_ tnem are pretty o.,C, s and not very badly needed any more. MR. BASSETT-That's what is going to happen to this

v. ear's rec.uest.

e n.V.V.'.Q o"* *. ^ *..T T O. ?.? Y..S.'7 ^ V. (" oi.1 A T. a s '. C 4. + u. ...= * *. s e, 4 h..e ,,.s e.v.s a n A a.c h.. b..c w.a .o wo..ra1 4 4 3 o. 444 a m...h o [t. g o 'a a e k. e .s a ~~

k.e. e ",u a o- *. a,

o.- hev -i u s '. ' a..#. ' h. e....'.' V. e " "..a ~ '. v, o "w a s"t e# g .. aroun .v.o.. J.v.. -' n., e.n 'ne 33C C'.4C e A. ..v.. [f CO.VV..'s*.C,*/"A.TT..O. ."s.7 ]. %. T. 7..N V... 3,.,..

h. o_

"s *.) 'a'.E m., n. A e.. b. 4 s m e., *. s s. v r ' ! \\ .,8 1 ] o ( j y

s, by "c.oing around," wouldn't it have then followed in simple 2 management techniques that somebody would have one back and v 2 asked and cotten some kind of a. revalidation? It would seem to me if they haven't, they ouch to, and today wouldn't be too late to start. .a-ae... ,o,,, a. e. w,--- .R. .e..v.. u.. ..w. a. s h, t,.., 2 w y u -. - e r.- e. in the time period in the 3RG process. A CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Has it happened since? MR. SMITH-Not that I know of. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Could you see if it could be a n a, --.m. MR. BASSETT: We will do that. c Co.D w a... s C.-,.,.... o. .w. y .4- ~ MR. ARSENAULT-I think I should say in our contact with NRR, we see no evidence. We are aware of some requests and we have giver ther less potential effect, we have -icnored some of them, but cenerally, we feel that the program is based on requests that are still current. C O.v v.1' s.c. "1 O ".r.n. v r "..".<r ^ v. - " " = * ' s n. e '. cu.i e wr1='- .a_ S.Ru" ~ .m v just said. That's the reason for my question. MR. ARSENAULT: I wanted to point out our experience, it's based largely on contact with the technical level. It is possible they have consulted about it. We will have to cet tocether.

a. y...,,-:

c MR. BARRY-We increased the program over '81 to p A r, ! n d 9

-e.7 4 *. a -.,m. a i 1.

o

.k. c-. 7 e..e,, a o,, 30 e co.n4 w., A.: e u w w.4un -ev v y e =11., ion to a increasec about 30 percent : rom a.1::.3e over ..4 .,o. o,,.e. o.. 4.,.,., o.,.. .v..o. 3 U D;.7... m h. o..- o. 43 - n. a n o. s, - n. 4 r., o '.- ".1.4.". d c # .3 ..s. ".da-ake - k.. a. ab.i.li*.v. c.# .h a. .-a s e a.-. h c.....un.4 '" o t. -..". a." e work of this kind, we don't think. As coposed to waste management or to risk assessment, both of which are growing rapidly. COM.V.ISSIONER AHE AFSE : Well, my confidence that the research community could undertake work on any volume -- now, am s "-.- a. - h a. ": s - _r..4 = - 4 k"m. -1

a. e ' v o u."

c" =.'.4 ' v. ,, 4 w..... .m 4. t -- -o m ...3..- would be willine. to undertake the work. [ Laughter.] BUDNITZ-Not effectively. MP. BASSETT-We'll go ahead to safeguards, if that is ac.reeable.

s. o. O '7

[n,lce.] ~ ga.oy a-a-a,

4 v.4
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'ba .~.iode's a y u=.- A 4 A ..s. ie -y, ase .-m.'a. s. e -c- .6 yt*g= M cCc e ***1 < " ". 0 r a 4 r,.'. O.vv_ c.0 T m 4_. R v. r."4 ".. r ',. v. 'v."n 2 a e hese ..~^u e 7 s 7 fs -t n (i (3 J } NI / / 1)

,3 .v..e.. :ng ge.mm. gg.77 ...o... a."e '.'j'".4 " G'.' ;' ~^Ao.ie .w s* .w w y w .ww azzow you to calcuzate tne snortes: patn curing access in a ^ sensitive area. The.v are models that allov vou to evaluate the probability of a -- they are models that allow you to determine what the odds are about the conversion of the material, .he ma.... c, o... o., m.4. u, u,. 4..o... 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Wouldn't you use models to deal with armed encacements? MR. SASSETT: It's to allow us to assess the effectiveness of the safeguards proposed by licensing. ..a..4.. .: 4,.., e - *-.40.. e.c *go __ w;, .v.n.. t r y.r n.. r. .ue w ..--.. e AR. BASSETT: It cives us an objective way so that ..e < ave we can do other than just guesswork cr experience. n n to ac..oly hocefull the same standards and an objective wav. 1 criteria. We can at least, even if it's completely accurate, at least it gives us a common basis. MR. BUDNITZ. If we have two senemes from the s ame ac. c. licant, that are cuite different, it might be more effective against a kind of threat. MR. BASSETT: Inscection methods, we are working ^' for and with I&E to develop methods and procedures fcr field _-- evaluation, insc. e c tion and evaluation of chysical safeguards. This is to allow them -- .v.v. e - .~.,r_.q s r..g. - v.. v.o s. o.# "...s-w -k =- ba.'.c. uv .o.s ...v ... w. e a ~ emes. m done at Sandia and Livermore? k i sj ' L

44 .. i .. e s. 4 ", ". was, .,~s' o# ". k.. a. wc - >. r-w .v..g.

n..gryngm..

-o - r -.. o is -- most of the work is being done at Livermore. ..~ n..a,- wme.. :~-..e ,a _w c, n f_v.. S.c cs. R G r. u-r. s.,S 1,v..

a..m..,

v . v.. - v_ ...m. o, to be useful in other work? I guess I sound pretty skeptical. MR. ARSENAULT-I understand that, Mr. Gilinsky. There is a lot of skepticism about these techniques, because it's perceived that they can never accurately model reality, , - r _ws,. na. 4s ..u. wnw ...A.- COM'IISSIONER GILINSEY-We know that. The question is .v.ou know, how useful are they. r MR. ARSENAULT : Let me try to give you a short answer to your question, then. "he work the NRC has done in this area is not duplicated anywhere. What its imperfections, it is probably the most advanced work in attempting to provide systematic methods for evaluating protection systems that exist anywhere in the world. Both DOD and DOE have shown significant interest in these techniques for possible applica-tions to their oroblem. Thev have used a number -- they have used a few of the techniques in practical applications at Oak Ridge, Savannah River. c O.v_u.r e-

m. r.s G T. - r s.4_e n..v.

h a., _,, .n o _4 s ha.

v.. _. m.. am.

.s a4 .4- . v thing I would think DOD would know more about it. s L s 4. .v. . nRS r,mL.-.. w o..,. _,, .w,. --_ns ~,w,.. o. .c. .,i. o. 4..g s.. l. w ^ ^ a.". A sCr, m ^

w. 3a

..,,o. o.. ... na.,y ......,s a s,- u. w. .. :. e.ai sar,: e.e.. r: a w r a_ _v* s., .i..n. O s= =.s c'.- n A 4. 6.~ a&. 4 n m a o,? $ w.. g q p Q.E j ano e.n p ym Q. 5 A .w tf a.s= a. .-. a .w .s w

43 4. *. c. - o - +- - - .43 4.4

w
k. o 4 - - k..

g o.

b. 3ye C"

.r.e. 4.- ....o..4.. - w. 3-ww...; w ,. e p t.a w,,,a s i o n. ~ ~ %. 4 - .,.,a. o 2,s -...e ; 3%,.- -. _ ,*p4. C,. 0.v.v.+ S c Cs.... o. G y r. <.. c r.my. v.s. o. 3-2,. a eneacements, evaluating situations like that. I would think that an agency like DOD or some of the law enforcement agencies would be better judges of the effectiveness or the reasonableness of these models than we _ would be. We are not experienced in police methods or armed engagements. MR. BUDNITZ: If we accept what I' rank said, we are S. u. 7. 'h..i"..>.. 4*'s a o e**v, s *..- m. a. c. --4" 4-d o u *..i n. -.s right about what we are doing. MR. LEVINE: Are some of these people cons 1: ants? Usine some of what oeocle? ~ ~ MR. ARSENAULT. I'd like to c.oint out v.our comment - about the DOD abilitv. to evaluate this is orobablv. valid, and that's one of the reasons we welcome their interest, and we expect to learn a great deal from our collaboration with both ._ DOD and DOE. CO.vli!SSIONER GILINSKY-I guess I'd like to hear, when you cet a view from them, what that is. I get a little E worried when you tell me that we are out in front in evaluating -. armec engagements. .v.2.. Ap.g :... ~- -.. wo"- he pas":.- - " =..- =... p ". a w." - c. ~ f7* Aeg;F*f's i"; -c ascect c:. : nose me:nocs. The armed encacement model.s

ne f1') 1 }'J a"{

y _t

46 ^". ". a. w a..= k. a..- c, a.- *. s '.k.. a. e"=.'"='4^.. e.e v. w. .t sounds ,ike excessive w.ut s e 2 O.. R G... m. -....u. l n 22 2. 2 "^". .".^~A' W.'.='. T'~ o = V. 4."."y ~5.-*, _i _# . g e.. 4 A o.. ^ c. C.". ^". " ^

v ym MR. BUDNITZ

World's greatest -- MR. 3ASSETT-If you have an obi,ective method of 's.= s".o -"". o. a 4* g '<. ^ w w h.. a.

h a..-

4#

^

a s s a. s.e 4..,, --

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+ - = " *

.s .45 automatic it's nice to have somethinc. more than obiective r A A sd w gm...e.m. e. s o~:. 1 - n n, .u. e- .eJo.-. v- ..A. ...c- .n ~~s- .n'..o. v.L V 1.b= wv. yevy.c s 6 cuestione. One valicity or. the overall risk assessment per:ormec, =..A

h a.
.u -. e.

o " *. *. o

k. e ' a. s e.

_4..o, w _- * =. *. _4 ".

h a.

a i 4.aa 4 .c. .~. insights developed. CO'O'.ISSIONER GILINSKY - Except there you are deali..g with subjects this agency knows a lot about. MR. LEVINE: Part of these evaluation models deal - with an evaluation of the physical systems. CO.vMISSIONER GILINSKY-When you talk about shortest cath or some thinc. like thatr vou are talkinc. about outcomes ~ of armed engagements, it seems to me that's another -- MR. SUDNI'"Z : That's a small part of it. .v..o.. M.n..c r e.. M g r m.. ..ga.i- -.. L a.,, ,-C,,4.. a,y. . w.o. - o c 6.- ~-- w = = t.e s ' - =_ _-. ^."

h e ma.
h.o4 o " " o "_.- d a. ve.l - -~..a....

m - y e r. y COMMISSIONER KENNEDY-When you speak of small, ? r. a..., W e vw.. v Ovw,lm v. .cs, 4 w - -.. e. d..< *4n e, anmr_, n._. e

w.. a,.

C... C A ... "t*&T&a NP OC *' l i. . percentagewise? uf l i.

a)

41 MR. ARSENAULTP What fraction of the effort. 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDYr It's a very, very small I fraction, indeed. MR. DURST : Les s th an 5400,000. This was the countermodel to the application, primarily the application of the countermodel to field reliability applications. ~ MR. LEVINE: I'd like to ask a question. Is DOE f unding the development of these models? The answer is no, but the reason for that is there were extensive discussions when the NRC was created between ourselves and DOE. We had in mind to start the development, in fact had already started on these models, and the agreement was they would develop hardware needed for designing and building systems, and we would develop the evaluation models, and they would monitor what we were doing. So there is an agreement about this, not a lack of interest, is my point. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: When you do get their view, I would appreciate it if you would send it to me. MR. BASSETT: Frank is in discussion with Mr. Wiezel at DOD. MR. ARSENAULT-We have periodic meetings at the management level, and we have more frequent meetings at the technical level. We ' ve only had two o f these. Ne expect c : -r t ::.x ,,, i,: "c f rc= both a gencies, I would say later in the year, and comments I'il h j ',8 ' ? a6 .u 9

I ,8 q I we will be happy to send them to you. 'h CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Good. Let's move on, please. ,o

i MR. 3 AS SETT :

88, please. o o n'n [ Slide.] e The general comments frcr ACRS were mild approbation 4. 4 with some feeling that our study of what happened in safeguards 7 hat TMI was perhaps not vf the highest priority, and we found a a*il way to get tne insights that we need there under another r I I 7 project which is going on. We had proposed to study the safeguards implications 'l of the laser isotope separation process. We identified correctiv that this was a comoarable.croblem in the centrifuc.e ~~ u n 'l u Both of them share the characteristic of a small siced crocess. i. unit operation. We are going to accomplish this under the lee n centri _puge investigation. 16 "l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why are we doing the centrifuge process? 10 MR. BASSETT: Because we are interested, there is a substantial centrifuge U.S. government plant. 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: We are not licensing that. MR. BASSETT: That's correct. We do have an l ,2 in te re s t in the licensing aspects of private industry, and we feel there is a possibility this will happen in the future, and it's a different forr., a Ohvsical problem, comcletelv, TSP 7 *f St A DOOrters, Inc. i SC 4 because of the nature of the process. ~ l k, s ~r

r ^G ta II n J U 3 -I I w., ..ss2v.,.- . n..r n.3..: : ..u. i s .s orien ec :owaras 1:. -m .....--.r.

. c c

a incus trv. were to culac sometninc..- .orivate I 3, C O.v M 7_ s~ s~ ~ ^".s -.. v.7 ' _7 ".,.C ;". '. _o .ha-a -..-*. - =. =. ' _- ^ c e "- ~ r e v. a i 4-of that? .: 'i .m. n.ag ev. m. m.m.

m..b.e y s

.. o w e.. >. s o _4 v.,.v.g g, .wom o 6' are discussing it. n 7,1 CO.vv.7.C C tor. rR AF.T.Ao..Nr. - Va-v, ve _,v s ' _4..t. t S CHAIRMAN HE::DRIE: Not in the next couple of years. ^ CCE'I55IONER AMEARNE: Not in the next decade. i^ o MR. BASSETT: There is a possibility of a license ..e ,y n s.>..e..,ewpo4,..4.. o g,,.a..3 . vv.. s.. c.,, m. _4. e.4c.,... I'-[ operation deserves attention. They saw fit to think the '3 centrifuce was the.crioritv. We ha'e.oen to know that the re ' s

or license a.co. l:.. cation,.

in any case -- a possla111 v. out. 15 l C O.v.v.I S e mg..e.:.,p..rApy r. I'd s=" .ha. - " " a b.4.'.4

v, o#

e I 16 i cornercial in laser isotope separation is at least.an order me, 2 c. _4 ., A e g -a a '. e * ~'=.-'.""..a. ,. -^ b ak.d 1 4.,v o_# -- n e ......s d[ MR. BUDNITZ: The safeguards issues for small unit o ce. a*4 ma.s a.-e. l o 4 d e ".. 4 - a.', b " *. s 4.t.i.' =. ~~ ke nu,, se 14u.n. %,.4 k.

k. o.

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I 30 .i ti iN s k 1 .ew r'a a A ,4. . u. u.he_4 y.na.. s. .. a..e o..60 c,sv a.~ 0..T A-e. ~w ..a ; 3 n w v s. y

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i: 4 O Was their decision to co ZorwarCt. p i J f ) / 0 ', ' ? C

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9 w v w... d 1 to me we ouc.ht tc c. ea r o ur c roc. ram to -- g 5' MR. BASSETT: We certainly will identify what we 6 look at. I think all unit operations, we take a similar !I.7g scrutiny, whereas in reclama, 99, in the safeguards area, we e i E' are asking only that the $400,000 set-aside, under alternatives we are assing that that be in c., uc.ec in :ne ma n set-asice, Il g Iw a effort. The supplies to the first breeder reactor studies c o. .w. s :e t.a am s...-,.4 c a.,,. s., n .. e -.o3.c..., and .u.u.i- .w n. = w. .r. ..w. e. our policy decision, we think it should'be included in the. main 13 program. s cm. anSe TT: o.5, please. r o 15 ] [ Slide.) h, 16 " In the area of the fuel cycle environmental program, we are oceratine. here in the effluent control safetv s.v s t e m s, 15 occupational health aspects, environmental impacts on the 'I nature and effort of transportation associated with fuel. --c. ..g e e 0 ~g -.s=s c_,o .a. " cod a..e.

o.

4.

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g ei tne -- ,2 COMMISSICNER.'dIEAFSE : It covers all Type A and Type M 3 spent fuel? ~> MR. Pr. marl,v assoc:. ate; w'tn :ne reactor cem . a. o.:..t a.m n.n. me., 25 fuel center, new fuel elements. n{'}( .,' /,/ b ~ 4

,l d al n. i It I CCM.V.ISSIONER AHEAPSE : Not such things as the I t ,n ' [ srall plutonium packages? y Il = J MR. BASSETT: In this area we are carrying on ti 4 Q some development of respiratory prote.ntion for workers. We d 4 e are s tudv. in~v the various modes cf transcortation of s. cent u L

fuel, the protection of it, the hazards associated with it, 7"

~ and some e f fort on decommissioning thi fuel cycle plants, of which 3 is some prospect. In this area we received 55 million, and we have no requirement. COSLM.ISSIO"ER GII;INSZY: Are you on the West Valley 1' project? ,.3 MR. BASSETT: Yes. '"l CO.v_v.ISSIONER GILINSKY : When? MR. BASSETT: If and when the effort gets underway. 1c COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I ar asking about your office. 16 MR. EASSETT: No, I am saying decommissioning category. We are interest in what happens at West Valley. 'b COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In the valley, or is it more general? 2C MR. SASSETT: I think it is more general. 2' MR. DAVIS: West Valley includes both low level ,2 and high level waste, high level from the past. We are 22 conducting an integrated study looking at various aspects of the waste forms that are there, the migration of the waste -.%,. awoners. inc., '5 awav. from the site, and the geomorphology that is on the site. =m ub l \\ l u. r

lj h h d 0 i 1 is n.h' T D.U.A.sI U.. T's.t a RT r.

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k.. a e y-a.. + -.

..".a. a.-a = c.. = ...,a...- 2 v o 5' basis. n 6 'l This is a cooperative study with the state of New a, It ,a ..o rk, ep z a .w w.s a.... w...e o ww.e.,

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w a -w .l e ve, was*a..i. *he -=.'.s. ". ".e " * - a. '.e o.<..i " ~ 10 " c.' e s e.' " rs.d '. ". S S d e.#.4. 4.. ~.. = ' e - -. u'.. - s.' "- A - e s. d g MR. BASSETT: 96. 4 (Slide.] 12 . ".e s a

c.. e +.- 5 e.."w

. C,.,.-..e.'. s. . ". e ; ". = '.* a '. ak a.. u= u .e. 4 . 4 c.4 .i.n a. e s

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w..= n. e

. o..,.. e.. 0.1 1 =... 4,.., e.~ o.- a g e, =.. d * =.. s c.- '. e it of..< rv..o ton, locine, carbon 14 anc tritium. Separation or. noble gases from them. 1B, emo m--w s k.~,1 4 'D C. Cu ..s.oe w. u%.. c -- -,. 4 -. s.e eo e. .s w.. ew-w. w 0 4. *. o.-. c., 1.. A o., 4 O a . d.4,..., 1

p S.

h,e do4.t..-. -- .1e o. w-. ywo. a w. u. c. w v...y agreement from our users in this area. However, we think ?;

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a.. d wa = - a.

~^4 .~; b a v~ '<, .. v w p. 3v.. 92 to get a more -- s v v.v.y,. S u-,. m. .p. n u..r.n.... t,w,. a o e s __..o .e,, - a a,,,,.,.,.,_ a.. w - .w e. 24 4c.. .u . r A e:xar e.s. i nc., 4e 1 MR. BASSETT: If a person has had some physical uptake. {\\ C 'y - L ,l 1 i

,,k. i I! g 33 n i" The last ACRS ccament, they felt was in fuel 2 handling, storage and retrieval steps, it seems inadequate, i 3' and we disagree with that general approach on the basis that 9 4 the general handling experience thus far by various people in DOE indicates there is a f airly low risk operation in the 1 6' storage and handling in terms of a fuel facility, or of a !l 7p reactor pool, ,i 3 This has been quite extensively studied. COMMILSIONER AHEARNE: If, for some reason, the b, al government were to suddenly decide to resurrect the concept of retrieval and surface storage, say air storage, 100-year -, operation, does the combination of NMSS and research have '2 enough information on hand to be able to address what would be the licensing criteria f 5r such a facility? 15 l1 l MR. BASSETT: I don't think we do, Ccmmissioner. I il M I'm certain our knowledge extends only perhaps to five, 10, 20 years sort f situation. If you start talking in terms of ..'c I, hundreds of vears -- L I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, I'm talking more like -- 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSE'l: Where is the specific c<na 1 Aa

ncy,.

a. I ,2 MR. BASSETT: I don't believe information on spent 22 fuel, I'm pretty certain -- now we do have a project underway for water storage. cea a Aeoorters. inc. 25 ; COMMISSIONER AliEA? lie: Long-term being defined as ? -. p 5.*)J eiig l b)

.l 1 a.s. i lla I Where is that underway? a - w- - = ~.. wk. 4 -". we a-a t n .v.g. n_ g o.. r e_.m...

h a *.

_4 - s y-e. .'Io talking about, the long-term corrosion business. We have been o

!! in negotiaticn with the Austrians and the OECD on an inter-

.1. .a,.. r - n -.=... r". .' a.', .~".e.....=' ..a. a.'..'.., 4 - ' ' d^ .,a -w Iel s*~ =w., .'. 4 4' wd.'.'

h. a.

e.. ". 4 s ' w^.. a. d.

..a a s ".-a...a.. s o # .e. ee..*

"a' 4-a 11

7) at this point, and we have no such work ongoing at the present t

8 I time, it is strictly -- C O.v.v. '_ S.C ' C',' r_ o G ' ' '_"., S ".s. - 'i"..';'.i s .d ' s -.. a * ". _' ". ^ A_ v. 1.. 10 doesn. a o.. _4. 4 . e __.. a. 4,.,,n a, ..R. u.3.m. v r_.

m..

y c MR. BASSETT: The Austrians are doing it already. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: DOE is doing it, I think. .h.. 4s wo > a. na.,. ,3o.

y. o _. w...we e..

.r a_ s, e A... o,,... e i.: w 9" came out here and briefed us on it. I hope he is doing it. 15 !! MR. BASSETT: A history, 10 vears, 15 years. 141 MR. LEVINE: They are reviewing what history exists, if I recall. U u COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Thev reviewed the histor..* and looked at various protomechanisms. CHAIPF.AN HENDRII: What is the long-terr program 2 involved? p. .v.e.. n..~- o.. _r _e m. m.. W.h a..' s b a 4... ~ "-^^^ced s 4 e. ww. occasionally -- and we are talkinc. about a croc_ ram, I think, which is coina to las t over 20 years, to give us some lead ~:-aa Recorm s.Inc ac time, if theV Co to AFR and Water-cooled storage, to he able. - { !. 6 . [I (.i t, i 4

g il li 25 di 1 l * ^ A e *.e.... 4.. a "s"..=*. =, -.. -. ^# c w- - ^.e i -. ...a "...=..i s...s = - a a-4" o.- -.= *. -. e I a - a 2 over the very long term, because the experience to date says 1 3P evervthinc. is fine but yet there is no data greater than, I r 1 1 4' think, 15 years. As the gentleman from Battelle briefed you a 5' gentlemen before, there is no hard data beyond that time 6" area, and this is the issue of critical concern, I think, in d 74 the licensing process as to what happens over the long haul. h H i, S, CO.TIISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask how much work u 9 is going to be funded in that area. 10 'l MR. ARSENAULT: Ev us? We've got a small part at i. .e li the beginning of '81, that will depend on the results of the 'I" work that's ongoing. I', CCIOi!SSIONER GILINSKY: Well, here you are spending ~ 14 $400,000 on marbles on engassments between policemen, $150,000 1 15 h lies on whether spent fuel is going to corrode if we leave it 16 h around in water for a long time, when that is a very critical fact and information to basic U.S. policy of the area. 15 MR. BASSETT: We don't have a strong feeling. It's g c a great problem. We feel it needs to be looked at in more depth. As we pointed out, we do have some historical informa-21 tion and some existing belief. 22 CO.vMISSIONER GILINSKY: Now, 'fI understand right, 23 it seems that is something we ought to get as good a fix on e, as we poss:o,y can. 4-a,xn.n. inc. j - - -m 25 MR. EP S S r"'"' = gree with you. It reflects the ~

o. j i, u, 5 4, u,'

_s

e !t i e! 56 w ..e- ,,0

k..... w 4.,.,;.

3.4....

4.,..

3 t,.a 4. 3_2 ...a-.. .e ,a., s v... 3 y o... u a we nac no -- -l 2 C.' "'u~ a~ S '. O'..' r.o, v~.~.' 2 ".. _C 7. ".. W e '.', .v o " r... ~a', .s 'O',6 a - a when President Ford said we are going to hold up cn 5" reprocessing, shi f tinc. sc.ent fuel storage. 'l 6'

u.. o_ >...v, e _=.

.o.- a s.4 A . ". 4 s, b u * .^.'.a. o.'. e... a.-.e. s v'i.m_ m - e .v .v 'l 79 this seems to affect this acency. I mean I find it pretty 5 incredible. ... s. h e s _e ,.., a 4 c.. _ w. a. ...e .uel _w c. 2, n. S s..r... e az.. n

a elements were going to go --

..t L..e.. .,e a c.,c:..4 c..,... _4... m e. 4 4,. 4 n,. w ,2 .v R. n c e r o. n c ~r e.. i o..; t .. -, the questions to be answered. As Charlie cointed out, there is no problem. There are some studies un.ferway now tc find out 4. wnether we can discover mechanisms t.na ceserve further study. ,,n g COMMISSIOIER GILINSKY: Well, you know, if we can M confirm that there is no problem, ther that's impo rt ant. If corrosion, that's a?so important. But we have to We C scover have a good fix on that question, because it's going to arrect 4 i i a.3ot of important decisions.

h. h. R..:

,de, ve c. o: a lo. or 40 vear fix out u na A P.,w,,..

. v a

of the existinc. excerience. What we are lookinc at here is how o -e far on out can one reasonablv go. M best guess in temperature E circaloy or water chemist y is it's probably good for a hundred years. .co3 A eM1tf t, IMC. a. 4 3 8%. -., u.a..e h.. 4.'%...M. ...u,.3., s .%..P ou.a.8'% p g e.y v... l. (\\ ~ 4 a] s l : (1 4

3 ! i Oi 1 b u ~. _' _ ' a-s c '..a.'. '.a. r' o n a. w =... s o .#.> a_ _' -. # _4 d a_.. = k c '... r e. 3 1 ,'E MR. BASSETT: We'll t.ake another look. a 'l -u ?. w a..'w " o"...*.'..' s" s.4 ^ ". a..- V" '.'.'.. i= ' * .v v.. w .m.. r.o. yc th..r. p e.r. L %.s w 1

l 4

a .u -no s ,i .is, a_ c.n. c _4 n n ..ie nw.. n,~.en on t.a. 3 ..i .to.. B AS S rT*. - 7 s '.a.c u ' d p o.'.. +. c ". ~. _4. _ a_ ..._c o# s~.m =3 a 46 ', and retrieval of a recositorv. -- II 7 CHAITOiA" HENDRIE: Is the committee talking just about spent fuel handling plants? '-~~ ~" - a a d.i.. ~ .v..o.. B n' S S r.* *. - N. o, s.4, "hev a.e ."o', -- u -v.. i. b., of the comments, they are also talking about storage and retrieval on the reposincr.v. But I don't think they had an a ,.n ' - _. understanding, since we are addressing it. ..n C...,. G... h...Eh.D I.,: 6r.av. n n i.- a n xr e COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I raised with I&E what i: d one could look for 'f the table, which I gather is now due le in mid-August, on independent veri #ication on testinc. e .,.4 e ..a.._.,, ": ~ " a.'.i #.d. e d e u.4 ..= n, i.n .5=~. c -a....iw.., . '...= r. n-n extensive wav. n Can you speak to that? 3 MR. LEVINE: Well, I guess there are a lot of J' ~ u e s - a..e. = c u *. ~ "-.=..i # ".i.. c. e. ". 4....e.n * " o ... ". s "- u= ' o.n d.' d '. c. 4 n w. ,2 If we have to cet involved in that extensive samoline, U inde.oendent sa.clinD-c. rocram, then it will be very expensive. ma We can certainly do it. i-d*8

1tDor:grs, Inc.

25 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: S i c. numbers really don't T-i, t, .s u- . >)f I

n 66 4 58 3 I" trouble vou. o Il 2I MR LEVINE: The question is, what do you want to test? Do you want to test the main coolan pump, under 1 4 conditions such as -- o 3' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I didn't mean to press i 6 the overall policy of how to do it here. Assu:aing that the o -. ~ 7: Commission does decide to go ahead and do that in some forn, __ _ 3 what would then we be looking at in t erms of budgetary g ~ process? Let's say we wanted to start it sooner rather than ,."" later. MR. LEVINE: I think the best way to do that would be to -- for us to do enough research for a set of. requirements U that the industry had performed. It would be their program, 1 ', i. we woulc. rund some money into it so that we coulc_ nelp i*c "h direct it to the goals we wanted to achieve. 16 l We don't have that kind of money in our budget. It would be a sic.nificant amount of monev, depending on the g amount of coverage you wanted to give, to what kind of environments. Do you want shaker tables, and earthquake t able s, so f orth and so on. 21 It would be a large program, multi-millions of 22 ' dollars. 22 CHAIPS.AN HENDRIE: '80 supplement looks like it m. could be developed rapidly. 7Or:*f t. A epor'erl. I rtC. 23 MR. LEVINE: We could do the planning probably under 1C n'1 i.. . '.3 3 t

4R n a 29 it i i< f?t' I h

.".e..

a.v.a ".a.

o..y 4 s.,.

...-. e....s- . w.=. wa- =_-aaak.i.'.c. o.... 2 the program, there is no money for that. 3, .....eg. -... ._=ke .n_ u..s -... -.. .x.. u.u. m _ _...,, r 4.,--

-s.

i... u 4 one overview comment that I feel personally that is concurred 5 in by the other people around the table, although this is my o 6' personal view, and that is that in the SAIR division, we have 1 7 f about 25 professionals, the total staffing for this year, 5 the vear end is 31. And considering the variety of fields a that we are in, the breadth of this program, I ar personally I w, convinced that there is no way that this program could be i' managed as it expands over the next couple of years unless we have more staff, and.we have asked for it. U. The EDO mark, they have given us 81 c mark for M this .v. e ar, and we need. six more than that. That may look a I5 h like seven more, because it's seven more the next year, because o 16 !! our '80 number is one less than our '79 number, and that's a d.4 # #.4 -"a.' o_ n v _4 - ~..~...e r.. _4 n w"._4c.. ".. i e C..._r'.o, c'.' ", _'.e.4. a 4e. b y e _,,v a variety of thine.s us: can,t be coced with. "e coera:Inc., We c,eal with all the or_:_1ces in tne wnole ac.encv, 2^ Standards, NRR, NMSS, and to a lesser extent with I&E, and I am of the personal conviction that the SAIR division staff Amde cannot cope with the amount of werk that the agency wants it to do, the quality the agency deserves, without those few 23 24 ex. a s- _a__y-e3"-.4.-es r.

n.... s exn.n. i nc.

25 i Another comment has to do with the character of the +, 0, i t A

ll L it ~ y oo h, o In One 0..:1ce or Research, we have three c.._.:.: erent ' [ war. .I' g g e g m. o...-,;m - Q., -..A o .w. _. _4S'.

4.._ _4 o g.

h. o n r.. ;,,

4 n, -..$.p m v o _-e..,

c. - +

mm y s y_ D tn, is. n 4 wo,..e a e s., pe. 4 g w...e a ..._4n a... 2..,. ... e _e _4 .w e_.. o o-w me o ... 2 _ _4 . 2 1- . o. w../.- .w..

e. o..._4..,...

,,a _4o.,,3 e - - _eo_.._ _4n w2_ n v. M 6' effort in water reactor safety, we have the dominant national 1 ' '. effort in risk assessment. ,i 3 In this, that is not so. What we are doing here

.s bits and pieces o f programs in whlen :nere :.s a larger 10 national e f fort, environmental and safeguards, and so on,

..io and waste management. u And in that ervironment, it seems even more '4

2 d d # _# _4c " _' _- *_ o c = - y o t'.. o "m.-.- e o o o._e _d " _4 1 4 + _4

e we _' _', w h. e ". w a_

a-a ~ not the dominant force like we are in water reactor safetv. 1

1 15 [

MR. LEVINE: We never will be the dominant force. ll 16 ' COMMISSIONER AHEAPRE: And you ' ve got to keep in m. 2 1. e, 4,., wa. a.- a,. '.r a _- ' - c'^ee '.^a k e _d.. +, .k.. a. ~.. _4., A, _4 _: wo- -.. ._ie c 4 _4c a.3 aw-..4.. ..a s. e ..a n a_ - e .6 . + .o. v g MR. BUDNITZ: Yes. And to that extent, -- and b.v the wav the extra staffinc. is larc.eiv. in waste manac.ement, .r ..c. e.. 4

elv,

.'.e.. a ' s a ' s o ~..~ ~ a.- "aad -..A. e..'._"..- .' n. u.n - _.- o =. 24 men *al, where we are on the critical path, of course, because .w ... e o. _4 _-.... e, _ _,,_ _ a s,- s -_ e ,t,.. s. a e 9 .gy c i.".*. _4 s o.n ' v + h. a., ". =, e.- s.^. = '.' " c- ' "he 4-e y .. y m.: -=es. Reporters. Inc. 23 ' ,.. _i s o.1,.e w.. a.. .. e.. _1 A_ a.7 1

k. o.

o f n_i r,, g._.

w. o.

-4 s m. =. A_ _,. 7_4s _4 e.., w o-ee-b

l o

r. -

{, _i,,) [' b'I I b, /y

p .I l' 61 0 I ', marc.inally effective level of staffinc., not in c.ualit.e, but li d e4 in size and diversity, and we've got to remedy that, or we are p 4 not going to be able to do our,,ob. I really believe that. ,e COMMISSIO!iER AHEAFliE: Could I make three overall 4 -c comments? 6 First oEf, perhaps it's on one of those papers o'I 7 ij that I haven't gotten to, but do you have, or is it r. der l!o o eJ development, or planned development, what would be called a n 11 9' long-range research program plan? 1^* "y MR. LEVINE: We have not. II MR. GOSSICK: It's being laid out, Conmissioner a, ,,9 Ahearne. I just sent out a.ciece of a.cer, carticularl.y on e n J I2 the research program. We hope to have that put together. 14 t.Oh....-- 014:.n ant.nFli.: Because certainly --

e. Ado 1 15 MR. GOSSICK:

We laid out one before, as you 14 remember, three years ago, 76, I think. It needs to be revisited, and we have that definitely in the works. 1"* q COMMISSIONER AHEAFliE: The second thing, what I i would have hoped to have seen, and I think it's really too -->.m late to see it, but I will iust comment, somethine that y s would have had with respect to the rese arch pre,. ram on the effects of TMI and its related -- here is '80, 'El, and 'S2, 22 and here is the base, and then here is the list of things 2 ~' that are cancelled, deferred, or reduced, and ".ere is the ...e.,. aewms. ine 25 things which are added, redirected, o r e xpanded. O L/ i ! J

n !I 4o o z. o 1f . _ e a2._, y. w. _4, _4 _ e _e ,, - ^ b ab _1_V ~ _ ^ ^

^

'. ' ". _ = '. _'-_a_ ^ .i c MR. LEVINE: We had nothing shown on cancellations. 9 r.qo. w,..e e *,*e -' _.'. 4.. g , ' ' " '_' s~. s=4A e.v. '_' a_ . _=. ' a_ _1 _' _= _ _i ^. s. W... 2 .s . 0,s i d a_ _- a_ #_

b.a. ",, e _-"2 c a _- e _# "_ _'.' 3'.

i., Il -( e. a _i. _' v *>ee a.-a

o _-

= c e _' ". a_ _'.a. c-e s a. _4 ". - a 9 6' funds no question about that. The question :s, what can we a n ? i s 4 g_i _4 _c 4ic2.ce. a _c .ea,1m _. e - m. e, a.. 2 e_s.a,.i. oee a.2 g.... r-

o..

v_ 2 c m.. 1_c z oy.= o ~ ~a.=.=.= < _=.. ^ h a 1 a_ a-A s ~ ~. ~.." ~ h.'.-d =, c e .s m. O. . = ". -.. s. s ...-a. ,'"s _=,.e s^.= -a,ua_ s v-c,, a_ s _ _- -., 2" .. a.x _ A 13 e Monday, I guess, if you could, would v,ou cive me what you a would chanc.e for v. ou to take a 15.ce rc en t cut from vour budc.et _. _ -,,o_ s. 3

m..g e..=

t. _ _e = b o _a _' o. .' # 7 =dd ". ".e .e e = s '. d a s 3-to the mark, it'.s about a 15 percent reduction f rom your i,, ^ request. 15 ', N. ow w.w. = ~. von

k. = ~ o_

A ne, .-e - _1 1 ", 4- . a v.4 a. a.-, ..o_.. o-4 e o a u :' for why a lot of those ought to be restored, but for a variety '~ o.' -a_ a s.. e, _# _4.. a.n v~.' a l a" s a_ _ _4 v, o. b"Ac,e. c..- o.', - s o..e-e ...c. ...n. A. w o_ we. o -_ a w. a c,.,..-, s.4 n .w3._ .o_yo .w..o ess 14 -c m i. e 15 percent ought to be taken, it probably would help to know e,. 2 ..w-. 4c _3.. e ' ' - =. _

b. a d

_v^ "e ..w., s, o.,.,,. no 3,.ou wou.a m. y _ -. .ako, __ z. ,2 CCM.MISSICNER GILINSKY: Can I ask you how much of e.._ a_#ed a s ~... .-e.1 = " e # 7 w ._. u., a- _._.,_:>. 4e .g n 2 ~', MR. LEVINE: I said that yesterday.

n fact, it is

~ -2 8'a. G eoorters. I nc. ..D _ a_ C,^, _' _' A *. 4 o.". b v ..a., _ *.,.- o..c..e s ". V, o "w _- s _7 4 A o_

g. r..

..c ynn .v s ,v a., t \\... i ,\\1 L \\ / s. =# i

g e il i. e3

i li

,n --v',..-. a..., -,;a m. - e.,o. a 2 We have reoriented in '79 already S12 million for f, 3J TMI -- no, 14 is the One -- we have reoriented 512 millicn in '79 .i c ~ already to TMI. We are reorienting from our existing 50 program pre the supplement $34-1/2 million, the supplement is .i f 4 6, another $32 million, and we have the 32.3 for waste management, 4 73 29 is for TMI. And in '81, 76.3 million is TMI-related. e <l B COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What I an asking is certain g i cuarters you get the view that TMI proved the reactors were i 1 10, unsafer than we thought, the latest being a two-page ad in The Wa s. - a e *- a ^ "..= _' "2 e s

a_ _-d _= _v.

'. 2 MR. LEVINE: I don't acree with that. 13 CO.vMISSIONER GILINSKY: What I was going to ask is k what.vour view, and how it relates to what we are doinc., is. 15 l my - v-yv view is t,e to owing: n p' 16 In one sense, that is correct, in the sense that I s aid this yesterday, that prior to TMI, we would postulate io

ne set of conditions that actually happened at TMI, mainiv i

that there was a 30-percent metal-water reaction. I think 20 almost everybody I know would have said that, sc in the : sense .na 4 2 w . m.4a no ,e., .u a, _w_ c,,. e s,m,s _2 _4,,a h.. s _4._,. a. 1 o m.-- 22 ' without meltinc, it's verv. encouraging. And the basic reascr 22 for that, by the way, is that stear coc14.ng is very effective 2' .., ke e - -' a . ^. C.. W o.

i. -. o w +.'. a., '-. se..a".a-c." v e. =.. -

-^-a ,.Me a A eocrters. In:. 25 w.-e d.4 +.- -s.- 4. W e,i " s. s o... o A 4. s ~a.4 s s

4...

Na >"^w w"'. s. a a.~s'. ~^ --..e n k' c. l 1 i / r r4 ; )o

y u b o-4h Ih cooling can do. It's one of the big arguments about the fact, !? 2' An.oendix K criteria, that we give credit for steam coolinc, n 3" and when we do a realistic calculation, we give credit for 4 stea. cooline., we forget about it in the licensinc. crocess. n l 5 So in that sense, yes, we know there are things 61 that we should have been considering that would tell us that .I i 7 h the reactors are pretty good, little better than we thought '"ey would be. i -6 Sv the same token, I think we are shocked -- I was 'O., shocked at what happened there. I think it revealed inadequacies I and desien inadec.uacies in safety review. I think the absence v ' ' ',. of anticicated scrams was ver"2 bad, the fact that the reactor n e c i -..e d '. o ' 4 b a..= ' 7,- e. '. k...- -=..'4=-.".

m*.' v a.'o kae

' " a. . >. e a -e reactor fro 5 scra..ing, is a bad operation, and our bulletins 14 15 'l have fixed that. 16 r I think that's very good. So I didn't think it was a good situation at ':'MI. I think, however, :. t canebe corrected. __= _ . _ _ e_ i. _, y m_ .,._4 _ u r.,., w.. s. ~., _, e _= a e, wh e. e w e t-.. ^ w wa. h.. a v a-w 3.- r .. -., aa - -.a.. a e ace. r nr a -r 2v [ Slide.] I' In these areas of severe core damage, it's not a 22 big unknown, nysterious area, it's an area that we have to ,,., a e a .. u - s. 2. u. m24 CA..V.V.TS_CTC*..T".D. /a* T ' ? *

C 7,V_.

v. -.,I s_ c.

. a.1 5.. _4.n. 3 h e t.i...a . ~..... -v 'E 4 000"t71 I RC c Z-fair amount of money, tens of millions of dollars, better part

1 g

Lg l ' s) - _1

p d. 60 n L I of $100 million in one year. It has to deal with more than h o lig anticinatorv scrams, relatively easy to fix, so you seem to be V ,o savinc. che.s are fundamental cuestions that need to be ,H 'a addressed. n c MR. LEVINE: I think we have to look at the rmal 6" hydraulic interactions in the kind of depth that we haven't n. 7'! looked at before, to understand them very well, well enough to 8 model them. There is no code in the world that could predict a 9 9 what happened to the TMI core in detail. We don't even know o 1" h what happened to it in detail, but there's no core that can predict that. Nor am I suggestinc that we will ever have one, or s need one, but we certainly neec ts.e understanding o, t,ne 1 '. chvsical.orocesses that co on, so tha+ we kno. how to tnink 15 1L about keeping out of these situations, and making them less 16 likely to occur, and giving the operator the kind of informa-tion he needs to cope with it, if they do occur. 10 ~~p MR. B UDNIT Z : I also think it's in a way an exaggeration to hang all of this onto Three Mile Island. 20 However, we conveniently do so because it's also true, for ex am:le, we are having a sizeable increase in our risk assess- - #ae' ' ". = * - -- wa a - a_

c. o.4 ". c.. o ". a " a-

~. ". a ", w"..a.h a - e ^" ..e... s. o_ wo_-o. .T a d b a_ n_.". =. a -

d. e..

_= ~_ ".." _- a e .v. 4.' e -'o..', we wa_-a _s. 24 The ,.s.. s. ae:me m i.in: ~ ~ said that this was .ewis.secort crowinc eaca vear. s

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.moort ant r and you affirmed that in vour own statement. 'l Qii U 'EL i i ,y

i i i a 6e-1" ..w. a.. s _. _ ..v.. _. e_, a e -, a u... v.e -.,...e.-.o --c. . u. o v- ~ 7 i 'n to the effort we are underna,<ing. 1 !I ll 3 The same thinc. with seismic engineering. That's A q not TMI-related. We are working on that area because it's .c ' t ... < c o ~ =... t 6 'l Same thing with structures and pipes and so on. ii 7j So not eve ything has a TMI label on it. Even s' Mf that says TMI cn it, like risk assessment, is not just because of TMI. e ^ CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. We've hac a good half hour's discussion. [ Laughter.) . e, .I The fact that it has taken us two hours is unfortunate. by way of -4 MR. LEVINE: Let me say, Mr. Ch airman, n a.co.L o c. i In - o.v way or am.oreciation, I,m..n a.co.v :or tne :1rst I;. j time SArR has gotten a full hearing, fuller than it has in past 14 years. C O.v..r. g e r n.. n..-... r - v.. ,, w.:,,,,,,, ~.,, .v.. ue \\. 4.,. e. .--.8-. .u.. w. .. ~.... : CHAIRMTS HENDRIE: Thank you all vary much, p i Let us contemplate for a second the near terr course .2 -' of events. Let's see, can we run a little past your leaving ,$I . i.m..e, L'$ c 9.- I would hope to run till 12 : 30 or so. I think we're going to have to work back on some of these audits, either - m caa Aa::,orters. tec. '5 this afternoon, or temorrow morning. 9 '~l

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'1 I Well, why don ' t we take a three-minute stretch and l{ 2 then launch on it, rather than agonizing over it now. o -,.' l. Okav. 4* ij (Whereupon, at 11:20, the hearing wc.s adjourned.] .c !' 6 4 'h w l 7 l e C.i! i 7 i V ii 44 li = =e. a-s O' w S e i4 e s a. u, w OIC e ~. 4 9

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