ML19249B046
| ML19249B046 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 06/01/1979 |
| From: | Allen J ALLEN, J.J. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7908290320 | |
| Download: ML19249B046 (71) | |
Text
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1
In the Matter of:
2l IE TMI INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW 3
of John J. Allen Supplier of Safety Equipment 5
6 7
8 Trailer #203 9
NRC Investigation Site TMI Nuclear Pcwer Plant 10 Middletown, Pennsylvania 11 June 1,1979 12' (Date of Interview) 13 July 5,1979 (Date Transcript Typed) 14 283 15 (Tape Number (s))
16 17 l
18 F
19 go 9
NRC PERSONNEL:
22 23lf Mark E. Resner Gregory P. Yuhas
"'.0 289 l
William H. Sehrle (Met-Ed) 24 25
1 RESNER:
This is an interview of Mr. John J. Allen.
Mr. Allen is a supplier 2
of safety equipment.
At the present time, it's 2:12 p.m. EDT, and today's 3
date is June 1, 1979.
This interview is being conducted in T.'ailer 203, 4
which is located just outside of the south gate to the Three Mila Island 5
facility.
Individuals present for this interview representating the NRC 6
are Mr. Gregory P. Yuhas.
Mr. Yuhas is a Radiation Specialist employed at 7
Region I with the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Also present g
representating the Metropolitan Edison Company is Mr. William H. Behrle.
g Mr. Berhrle is a Project Engineer, stationed at the Reading facility.
Moderating this interview is Mark E. Resner.
I am an investigator with the Office of Inspector and Auditor, Headquarters, of the U. S. Nuclear Regula-tory Commission.
Prior to taping this interview, Mr. Allen was given a two page document which explained the purpose, the scope and the authority by which the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is conducting this investigation.
In addition, it apprised him that he is entitled to a representative of his choice to be present during the interview, and that in no way is he compelled to talk with us should he not want to.
On the second page of this document, Mr. Allen has answered three questions, which I will state for the record.
Question one, do you understand the above.
He has checked yes.
Is that correct, Mr. Allen?
20' 21 ALLEN:
Yes.
22 23 RESNER:
Do we have you permission to tape the interview?
Mr. Allen has 24 checked yes.
Is that correct Mr. Allen?
25
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2 1
ALLEN:
Yes.
2 3
RESNER:
Question three, do you want a copy of the tape? Mr. Allen has 4
checked yes.
Is that correct Mr. Allen?
5 ALLEN:
Yes.
6 7
RESNER:
- 0. K.
We'll provide you with a copy of the tape at the conclusion 8
of the interview.
At this time Mr. Yuhas will have some questions to pose g
10 r you.
11 YUHAS:
Mr. Allen, do you routinely supply Metropclitan Edison Company with supplies that are routinely used in the radiation protection Health Physics g
areas?
15 ALLEN:
Yes.
16 17 YUHAS:
Do you have a standing contract with Metropolitan Edison as a sole supplier?
20 ALLEN:
Right now I have an emergency blanket order contract for the emergency that's presently going on.
I have had, if you say, contracts... usually it 22 was on bid, lowest bid proposal, on most of the items.
And I have won some 23 over a period of years, for different companies and, sorry to say, I also 2t, lost some.
25 "O 291 l
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3 1
YUHAS:
How did you become aware of the incident at Three Mile Island?
2 3
ALLEN:
Basically, general news media.
I got some phone calls from different 4.
people in the industry that questioned me on if anything was going wrong, 5
and once I heard that there were things going wrong, I started to see what 6
emergency stuff I could line up, that they may need.
7 YUHAS:
8 When were you first contacted by a representative of Metropolitan Edison Company?
g 10 ALLEN:
Basically, I was probably contacted around 10 or 11 o' clock in the i
morning.
It was on the first day.
I made the first contact.
I called the HP's and told them that I had some equipment that they might need.
Scott Air Packs, for instance, were offered on loan by one of my distributors.
l And I made a contact with the HP department and told them that I had Air 15j 16;l Packs.
And then everything took off from there.
17 YUHAS:
Do you remember who you talked to the first day?
19l ALLEN:
What's the blond headed guy on?
Oh, I don't know.
21 YUHAS:
Would that have been Mr. Fred Huwe?
22 23 ALLEN:
Yes.
24
^^0 292 25; i
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4 1.
YUHAS:
The HP Foreman?
2 3
ALLEN:
Yes, yes.
I talked to Huwe on the air packs.
In fact, that was 4
the second day... that was the second day let me get things running here.
5 M st of my activities, as far as orders, took place on the second day.
6 YUHAS:
Then you did not make contact with the licensee the first day?
7 8
ALLEN:
g Yes, I talked to different people on the first day.
I'm just trying to think who I talked to.
You know, just questions... offering our 10 services.
Again, you couldn't get through the telephone lines.
So, I was dropping messages off to a lot of anomyous people, you know, in the HP departments, saying what we had and what we didn't have.
And then I started getting phone calls on the 29th.
So, I did make contact with a lot of people on the 28th, but to say who, was almost impossible because most of the names... a lot of the names, I didn't recognize.
17 YUHAS:
On the 29th, on Thursday, the 29th, you began to receive return calls from representatives of Met Ed?
i 20' ALLEN:
Yes, I started getting requisitions and purchase orders.
And first 21 of all, inquiries if I could get certain things.
And I had already had my 22 gears in motion.
So most of it was respiratory equipment.
23 24 2s
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5 1
YUHAS:
Do you know who you were dealing with on the 29th?
2 3
ALLEN:
I believe the first girl that gave me an order was from the Purchasing 4
Department in Met Ed.
She's an expediter.
Her name is... I go blank on 5
these now.
I'll have to get you her name.
6 7
YUHAS:
Oo you remember what the first requisition was? Or do you have a 8
record that would assist you in recalling that?
9 ALLEN:
Yeah, 3/29 requisition, purchase order number 68460, 100 respirators 10 11 and 200 cartridges.
12 YUHAS:
13 Can you describe the type of cartridges?
14j ALLEN:
I believe these are Scott numbers.
I would have to check, I guess, 15 my invoices.
17 YUHAS:
Do you recall if those were cartridges designed for the removal of radioactive iodine in air?
20 ALLEN:
That's a loaded question.
Because...
22 YUHAS:
Let me unload it.
I'm not asking you if they are NIOSH approved or MESA approved, but I want to establish is that you supplied, I assume, fuli face masks?
25
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I
6 1
ALLEN:
Yes, they were full faced masks.
2 3
YUHAS:
And you probably supplied GMR cartridges.
Right?
4 5
ALLEN:
Well, they were radionuclide cartridges.
6 YUHAS:
- 0. K.
These would be the magenta, the color of the footballs?
7 8
ALLEN:
Yes.
g 10 YUHAS:
... called GMR's?
12.
ALLEN:
Yes.
And some of then, were piggy backed.
The reason I said it was a loaded question was because I don't believe there is an approved iodine cartridge on the market.
i 16 YUHAS:
Again, we not worried about guessamatics.
What we want to know on the 29th you sent... did you send'them on the 29th?
l 19 ALLEN:
I don't know if we got them out that day or not.
We delivered..
20 we might of had them out here the next day.
21 22 YUHAS:
And that would have been 100 full faced?
23 24 25 I
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7 1
ALLEN:
Yes.
65 H respirators and...
2, 3
YUHAS:
200 charcoal cartridges?
4 S
ALLEN:
Yes.
61 YUHAS:
Was anything else ordered on the 29th?
7 8
ALLEN:
g 50 Scott Air Packs, 1,075-8 Welch cartridges and...
10 YUHAS:
- 0. K.
The Scott Air Packs, were these Scott 2's?
12 ALLEN:
I believe so.
I think that's wnat they were.
14 YUHAS:
And when were they delivered, to the best of your knowledge?
16' ALLEN:
Probably the 29th or the 30th.
We sent a truck down.
They were approved air packs.
I believe they were 2's.
And again', I would have to 18{
check the invoices.
19 20 YUHAS:
- 0. K.
The full face with the charcoal cartridges, Scott type, can 21 you be a little more specific.
We're trying to establish times when these 22 were delivered to the licensee.
23
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l 1
8 1.
ALLEN:
The only way I could do that is by checking my delivery receipts.
2 And giving you the copies of the delivery receipts and dates.
3 4l YUHAS:
- 0. K.
5 ALLEN:
6 I've got about 600 invoices and we were flying like 20 hours2.314815e-4 days <br />0.00556 hours <br />3.306878e-5 weeks <br />7.61e-6 months <br /> a day.
So, until I go back and look at them.
7 8
YUHAS:
- 0. K.
The reason for establishing... in an emergency we are g
0 trying to evaluate whether the licensee should have on hand large volumes of rather costly equipment, or what the lead time is, for instance to get them from a fellow like yourself.
In other words, you were called apparently on the first order came in on the 29th, and it appears you were able to deliver that within 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />.
Is that correct?
14 15l ALLEN:
Yes.
Let me ask something here.
First of all, on most of the Scott stuff, I called most of the local Scott distributors in the area.
And found out that most of the stuff your looking for, they were calling l
for 6 to 8 weeks delivery.
And I had to start calling all over the country 19 till I found somebody who had an adequate stock.
Now, my background has i
20 been... I've been associated with many safety companies and also one of 21 the nuclear laundries.
So my concept has been, and the concept of the 22 company that I represent... has been in the event of a catastrophe like 23 this, there is no local guy or no company that's going to keep all that 24 stock.
Because the way utilties go, you have to go low bidder.
So, we're j
25!
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[
9 ll beer, working on the idea that if... and this has been for many years...
2 :
God forbid anything went wrong someplace... we had to have some sort of a 3
plan.
We were trying to sell the idea that we would have inventories, even 4;
for major outages, on trailer trucks.
And we would. bring in the trailer 5
truck, and leave it at the site.
You would sign a receipt of it, and this 6{
and that, and pay us a rental fee, and only pay for what you use.
This is 7
the idea we were trying to promote.
So basically, we had... had many 8
contacts.
Then again, your situation here was unique because you say the g
utility trying to establish how much they should keep.
- 0. K.
In this 10 situation you had HP teams from every major utility in the United States.
1 Every truck that pulled in here had a different type system.
Different 12 type respirators, different type masks, and they all brought their own eq pmen consequendy, there was a lot of strange stuff popping up 13 that you needed replacement parts for and stuff like this.
And this is why p
f 15j again, being associated with the laundry and having contact with replacing l
and cleaning of equipment, we knew just where to go for different parts and 16!
everything else.
But in answer to your question in as far as how much 17 stock should they keep on hand?
I think your going to learn a lesson this 18j time.
I think your going to get the answers at the end of this.
Because 19f you can be overstocked.
I mean this could never happen again, but I think that there should be some sort of a bank in the midst of... especially this Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland area where if the utilities combine their inventory.
It would be shared and used by many utilities to bring the cost down.
24 2s' "O
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10 1
YUHAS:
Now let's get back to the Welch's now.
We have got 100 Scott full 2-face, 50 Scott Air Packs.
How many Welch's and were there masks?
3 ALLEN:
No these were 7,500-8 cartridges.
These are also the radionuculide 4
5 and approved cartridges, purple or magenta color cartridge.
We brought in 6
a 1,000.
These were a verbal order from Gablusky, because he was with 7
Jersey Central and Jersey Central uses Welch.
So they were looking for 8
replacement parts for their cartridges.
And I got this through another g
company, basically, and the one thing I did do was, I was getting a lot of rders from different places, and I was refusing them, because I've been 10 dealing with Met Ed and I made sure that Purchasing was aware of anything that was going on.
This eliminated stuff coming out of the field with no purchase orders, because in dealing with 10 or 11 different suppliers, the purchase order was the only document in the way of getting paid.
And I wouldn't bring anything in here without an approval, without the Purchasing i
Department in Met Ed.
17 YUHAS:
Did you supply the MSA charcoals?
l 191 i
ALLEN:
No, I have no connection with MSA.
20t 21 YUHAS:
- 0. K.
So, these were the orders that came in the first day.
Were 22 there additional orders?
23 0 299 24 25
11 1
ALLEN:
This is probably the next day.
See being real smart, I don't date 2.
nothing.
I have to give you the... I got orders probably on the next day 3
for shoe covers.
Being associated with the laundry, we found out that the 4
Tingley boot couldn't be dry cleaned on the site.
So, we made the recommen-5 dation that they go to the canvas shoe cover with a PVC overshoe, because 6
the Tingley boot alone cost 8 or 9 dollars, and 75 cents to clean, or I
7 something like that.
The combination I just mentioned, you could bring in 8
for under 75 cents and throw it away.
And turnaround time was very impor-g tant, so we made the recommendation that they go to the PVC and the canvas, which they did.
That happened the next day.
Then I got a... we also made 10 the recommendation... I believe that this was shipped on the 3rd, so it must have been the 1st or the 2nd, disposable gloves, in place of gloves, and canvas, like I told you about, and 40,000 pair of PVC shoe covers.
That was the next week.
And we get to... I can give you purchase order numbers on this stuff so...
15l c
161 I
YUHAS:
That won't be necessary.
Actually, the scope of the investigation 171 is the first three days.
So really we have just covered it.
In other 181 l
words, we're concerned from the 28th to the 30th, for the purpose of this 19!
investigation.
20j i
21l ALLEN:
22l My basic thing then a... cartridges, making it known to them what I could get my hands on for them, as fast as they needed it.
And sort of 23 working with the laundry facilities to see, you know, what they thought as 24 far as turnaround time.
You know, I use to work for the laundry, too.
25 So...
."0 300 l
[
12 1,
YUHAS:
Do you routinely supply protective clothing, in addition to this.
2 In other words, the paper coveralls, cloth coveralls, surgeons gloves?
3 4
ALLEN:
Yeah, I have everything... full line.
5 YUHAS:
Could you basically describe the... was the licensee's inventory 6
7 such that he didn't have to contact you until day 3 or day 4, for this type f stuff?
~
8 9
ALLEN:
10 The licensee is, in far as item like that, was in tremedous shape.
The... I think the 3
general scope of the thing was... they've been backing themselves up.
They were always in a position to back themselves up.
In fact, I'm very proud to say, that a couple of meetings with different people, the HP department, never suffered for anything, as far as I was concerned.
As far as Welch and Scott, we had everything here for them.
We 15; had all the equipment and supplies they needed.
Due to the oil shortage, 16!
I we were even first on all the lines for PVC, because there's a six to eight 171 week waiting list for yellow bags and for shoe covers and stuff like that.
18!
But we got priorities and we have a pretty good stockpiles, and we got put 19{
first in line.
20 21 YUHAS:
Do you market, or do you distribute the Scott's speak easy 2, or 22 equivalent types of devices?
23 24 n
r 7n U
J U :l 25 f
13 1.
ALLEN:
I am not a Scott distributor.
I am a Gofer.
Nobody like I said in 1
2 the beginning... all Scott distributors had nothing.
I was shooting 3
around all over the country, trying to buy stuff.
I went to Scott direct.
4 In fact, right now, I'm ready to pull Scott apart.
Because Scott have 5
their air packs, sitting on the line, not ready for resale and they will 6
not break them down and give us the parts, that we could use here.
And I'm 7
getting tired of making 9 dollar phone calls for 30 cent parts.
8 i
YUHAS:
Do you know why?
g 10' ALLEN:
Do I know why they did
...?
Yeah, I know why.
They've been recalled.
11 12j YUHAS:
3 There was a warning issued based on some defects in the Spartan-Scott diaphragms in the speak easy for the Scott 2 diaphragm tibs.
- 0. K.
And that's why they...
13 16j f
ALLEN:
No.
I very familiar with the whole situation.
In fact, I'm aggre-vated with the situation.
I was familiar with the situation two weeks 18\\
19l before the Texas thing happened.
And I just... I didn't like the way Scott handled the whole thing.
I'm a bad guy and say that their service is 20!
for the birds.
21 22 YUHAS:
- 0. K.
I don't have any further questions, and I certainly appreciate your telling us what you did.
- would be helpful if... do you know if 24 you dealt with a fellow named Limroth, in terms of acquisition?
Do you 25 t
"O 302 i
14 1
remember any of the HP people that you dealt with? We're trying to establish 2
who was setting up the line of supply for the licensee? We haven't been 3
able to do that, because we can't come up with a name.
4 5
ALLEN:
I think the line of supply, basically, from what I can see, for 6
anything in HP protective equipment, really was in such good shape that why 7
would somebody have been needed to set it up when the warehouse was full of stuff?
I made my contacts to turn around and say, hey, the laundry will 8
g' not be able to give you the foot protection because it's dry cleaned and p rtable on site, let's go with the canvass and the rubber.
So, that was 10 the only change that was made there.
In other words, to expediate time and g
to save money, they made that switch to the PVC and to the... and that was g
the only change I've seen.
I have yet seen them be out of one item.
3 14 YUHAS:
Were you instrumental in arranging for the laundry... the dry 15 i
cleaning operation?
16i 17j i
ALLEN:
Yeah, I would have to say I knew a little bird that was sitting 18l some place, and I sort of said why don't you get that thing up here.
20' YUHAS:
Do you know when it arrived on site?
22 ALLEN:
I don't know the exact date.
I know it was supposed to be working 23 in another plant.
And I said, why don't you get it up here.
That was 24 basically it.
They needed it, and it was something new... a new concept 25j l
that it proved be..
(
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15 1,
YUHAS:
I don't have any further questions at this time, and if you would i
2; like to make a comment that you think may be valuable in future planning or 3
procurement, we'd be happy to hear it based on your expertise in the area?
4 5
ALLEN:
From what I've seen, out here, I think that the HP department has 6
done a tremendous job.
And I think that they've had people here that 7
worked way beyond capabilities of normal human beings.
I know my own 8
pe ple have done it, I've seen guys out here that worked 7, 8 and'9 days, 13, 14, 15 hours1.736111e-4 days <br />0.00417 hours <br />2.480159e-5 weeks <br />5.7075e-6 months <br /> a day.
And I believe the criticism their getting from, g
ag in, the press, has been ridiculous.
I think the unit has done exactly 10 what it was supposed to do.
it shut itself down.
Want me to tell you how g
to cure the bubble?
13 YUHAS:
Thank you very much, Mr. Allen.
14,;
15i i
RESNER:
This concludes the interview with Mr. Allan.
The time now is 2:34 P.m.
17 18{
n 0 304 t
19 20t 21 22 23 24 25 i
l t
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1,
In the Matter of:
l IE TMI INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW 3
of Mr. John P. Donnachie, Radiation Chemistry Technician Mr. Vincent C. Heilman, Radiation Chemistry Technician 4-l Si 6
7 8
Trailer #203 9
NRC Investigation Site TMI Nuclear Power Plant 10 Middletown, Pennsylvania lli June 1, 1979 12 (Date of Interview) 13 July 4, 1979 (Date Transcript Typed) 14-
- 284 15 (Tape Number (s))
16f 17 18i l
19
^~0 305 20l l
21 NRC PERSONNEL:
'22 Mr. Dale E. Donaldson Mr. Gregory P. Yuhas 23 Mr. Mark E. Resner 24, t
25' i
f
1 RESNER:
This is an interview of Mr. John P. Donnachie.
During the 2'
interview we will refer to Mr. Donnachie as Pat, since he prefers to 3
be called Pat.
Also being interviewed is Mr. Vincent C. Heilman.
4; Both Mr. Heilman and Mr. Donnachie are Radiation Chemistry Technicians 5
employed by the Metropolitan Edison Company at the Three Mile Island 6
facility.
Present time is 3:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time and today's 7
date is June 1, 1979.
This interview is being conducted in Trailer 203 which is located just outside of the South Gate to the Three Mile 8
g Island facility.
Individuals present for this interview representing the NRC, a Mr. Dale E. Donaldson.
Mr. Donaldson is a Radiation Specialist 10 employed at Region I, the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Also 3
present, Mr. Gregory P. Yuhas.
Mr. Yuhas is a Radiation Specialist 2
empi yed at Region I with the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
13 Speaking and moderating this interview is Mark E. Resner.
I am an Investigator with the Office of Inspector and Auditor, Headquarters the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Prior to taping this interviewing, 16i Mr. Heilman was given a two page document which explained the purpose, 18{!
the scope and the authority with which the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has to conduct this investigation.
This document. clso apprised Mr.
Heilman that he is entitled to a representative of his choice to be present during the interview and that he is in no way compelled to t
talk to us if he does not want to.
On the second page of this document 22l Mr. Heilman has answered three questions which I will state for the 23 record.
Question One:
Do you understand the above? Mr. Heilman has 24 l
checked yes, is that correct Mr. Heilman?
25i j
^~0 306 i
f f
2
~
l s
s 1.
HEILMAN:
Yes.
2; 3
RESNER:
Question Two:
Co wg have your cermission To tape this interview?
4j Mr. Heilman has checked yes.
Is that correct?
5 HEILMAN:
Yes.
6 7
RESNER:
Question Three:
Do you want a copy of this ta;d Mr. Heilman g
has checked yes.
Is that correct?
g 10 HEILMAN:
Yes.
12 RESNER:
Okay.
We'll provide you with a copy of the tape at the conclusion of the interview.
Mr. Onnnachie wa; aterviewed on a prior occasion and also was shown this two page adviyement document and for I
the record I will confirm how he answered tha thret questions on the 16' back.
Question One:
Do you understand the abeve?
Mr. Jonnachie has checked yes.
Is that correct Mr. Donnachie?
18(i 19 00NNACHIE:
Yes.
20 21 RESNER:
Question Two:
Do we have your permission to tape this interview?
Mr. Donnachie has checked yes.
Is that correct?
23 24 2s O 307 l
3 1
00NNACHIE:
Yes.
2 3
RESNER:
Question Three:
Do you want a copy of this tape?
Mr. Donnachie 4.
has checked yes.
Is that correct Mr. Donnachie?
5 DONNACHIE:
Yes.
6 7
RESNER:
Allright.
We'll provide you with a copy of the tape at the' 8
conclusion of this interview.
In addition to this two page advisement g
10 document both individuals were given a statement which explains Title 3
18 of the United States Code Section 1001 which pertains to fraud and false statements.
Each individual has read this statement and signed and dated this statement.
At this time I will ask Mr. Heilman if he g
will give us a brief resume of his experience and his education in the
,24 I
nuclear field.
Mr. Heilman.
15!
16 HEILMAN:
I attended a Catholic High School from 1962 to 1966 graduating 1966.
I spent the next year at Finhill Prep School in Fairfax, Virginia to prep me for college and in 1968 I entered Millersville State College in Millersville.
Attended three years but I did not graduate.
I started with Metropolitan Edison in January of 73.
My first three 21
\\
months on the jtb I... were spent, one half day was spant in school, wnich Met id's training department taught, and the other half a day 23l was spent on-the-job training.
That's 2 bout the extent of the training 24 until cause when 'I first... well do you want me to go on.
25 i n
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t s
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1, RESNER:
That's good enough.
That's fine.
Thank you Mr. Heilman.
l 2!
l 31 YUHAS:
Okay.
The way we're gonna work this because there are four i
4l people, prior to answering questions or addressing a question please 5
state your last name because this tape will be transcribed and it 6
makes it much easier for transcription.
The purpose of this interview i
7 is to verify the entries or training that appear on each training g
record that has been provided to the NRC by the licensee.
Prior to g
the interview I provided each of you a copy of this record as provided 10 You both have been given the opportunity to review the record to us.
and now I would like each of you to comment as to whether or not the training described on this record was in fact pNv.%d to you.
Mr.
Donnachie will you begin.
131 r
14!
00NNACHIE:
Okay.
On my training tranc,ipt here the first time that I 15!
see is Unit 2 HP and Startup.
Unit : H,t I have 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> marked 16' down here as far as the time that I was spent to be trainined.
It has no designation whether it's on-the jou or lecture, so I don't really I
know what you mean by that but just going back to 12/1/78 at the time 191 i
I supposedly had 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> yet it was not classroom type.
We more or 20t I
21!
less had very limited training in Unit 2 HP as far as technical training.
j The 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> which I may... out of looking at it now may refer to the chemistry end of my job as far as 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> in chemistry that week that 23 we had spent during our routine analysis in support of Unit 2.
Going 24l I
down the list, Unit 2 Tech Spec which we spent I hour on,... that may 25l t
^~0 309 l
I
{
1.
have been a one hour half hour to one hour briefing on a question and l
2 answer type on the Unit 2 Tech Spec so that may be.
That looks to be i
3f true although I more or less suspect that as the validity of it and 4l which Tech Specs were involved.
Going down to GET training which is a 5
yearly training that we go through.
This as far as I know is one of 6
three regulatory training modes we go through.
The other two beirg 7
emergency drill and I think the first aid is the third one on that for 8
a yearly regulatory training.
Commenting on the GET training, that g
includes security, QC, and safety as well as health physics.
Being a 0
Health Physics Technican we normally den't go through the health g
physics training because it's a basic training which is given to employees that have no feel for HP throughout the year.
So we normally...
there's a test involved in the hea;th physics section and we normally i
take the test and other than that I feel that regulatory training in 14i 15{l this respect isn't what it should be as far as our group.
Going dcwn I
to the next item, is Operation and Use of the Sam II. RCT 7 which I 16i I
would presume is Rad Chem Tech and I don't really know what the 7 17l l
means.
That was a lecture for 2 hours2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br />.
We were scheduled to have 181 this training three or four times and each time the training was 19) cancelled.
We brought this to the attention of our supervisor who was Tom Mulleavy and he had scheduled numerous retraining on this type of 21 instrumentation all which were cancelled at one time or another.
And 22' going down the list to the next item would t'e Pre-Treatment and LAWT 23 which stands for los Angeles Water Treatment which is a Unit 2 system, 24 a lecture for 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br />, which was given 7/1/77, which to my knowledge I 25 i
"O 310 1
6 1!
have never sat through 8 straight hours of this type of treatment, of 2
this type of training.
Pre-Treatment being the system was really i
3l never put into operation as well as LAWT was operating for a short 4
period of time.
It was a matter of going over there and supportting 5
perations and we had to my knowledge haven't sat down for 8 full 6
hours for either one of these systems as far as the lecture training 7
involved.
And these are about the items I have a question.
8 YUHAS:
Mr. Donnachie did you take the GET HPN Test?
gj i
~
10' DONNACHIE:
Yes.
11l 12 YUHAS:
Fine.
Mr. Heilman would you review your training record 13 please.
14l l
15j HEILMAN:
13; Really the only one item I have a question is one that affected me.
But that I mean I'm referring to the operation and use of SAM II same one Pat Donnachie referred too.
I frankly don't remember gettin any lecture and this did come back on my on an emergency drill 19f when I was ca!1ed upon to operate the instrument and really couldn't operate it properly.
Although there was a procedure with the emergency 22I kit, but it was dark, it was a drill I couldn't really make much out of the procedure because it was to dark all we had was a flashlight.
And I also, I guess could question the first item whic.h is Unit 2 HP and Startup.
It seems to me what they tried to do here is lump our 251
" O 311
7 1
working in getting Unit 2 to started up into training and there really 2
wasn't any training at all.
It was just normal work duties and looks 3
like they tried to insert it as training.
So with the exception of 4l those two items I would pretty well much agree with what's on the sheet.
5 i
6l
.I YUHAS:
At this time I'd like to present to you gentlemen the, another 7
8 additional document which has been provided to me by the Training Department and it is entitled Training Program - Administrative Form g
10l n
em p
an s form lists several in M uals including Mr. Heilman and Mr. Donnachie indicating that 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> of on-the-job training was provided at the completion of 12/1/78.
The form is signed by Mr. Velez dated 12/1/78 and under Item 7, Instructor Comments, Mr Velez makes this comment:
During the past six months the techs have been getting good instructions in both HP and Chem 15!
aspects of the Unit 2 Startup.
At this time I'd like to pass this 16!
I first to Mr. Donnachie for his comment.
My questions are:
Did you 17t I
sign the form to and what is your comment relative to Item 7 on back 18l of the form?
19l 20i DONNACHIE:
No I did not sign the form.
And Mr. Velez should brief you on who actually gave the instructions being he's a Unit 1 Health 22,j t
Physics Foreman.
Fred Huwe who is not here at the time, was in fact 23 Unit 2 Health Physics Foreman and I don't know how much information 24 Velez had gotten of f of him to put these ccaments down or whether it 25 "O
312 i
{
1, was the training... was just based on Unit 1 or Unit 2 Chemistry 2
Startup or Unit 2 HP which it seems like it's a general synopsis of 3l the two together.
1 4I Sj HEI WAN:
I also didn't sign this thing either.
My name is just printed on here.
And I don't know what Pete's talking about but if he 6
7 means on-the-job training as you go along you ask cuestions and you g
get an answer sometimes, I guess he could consider that good instruction but as far as any formal instruction I really don't know what he's g
"9
"~
10 11!
YUHAS:
Then since it is on-the-job training it appears that it is for the purposes of the entry there, not clear as to the method of training I
but in fact you may have both worked in Unit 2 for 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> total 14' l
prior to 12/1/78, is that correct?
15j 16 00NNACHIE:
That's correct.
There's a similiarity between Unit 1 and 17l t
Unit 2 as far as health physics and that's a pretty basic subject 18j anywhere and it seems that the science of health physics was continuing 19!
into Unit 2 only it was documented as training if that is in fact what 20i 21;j he meares by the training program form here.
Just commenting on a specific item being the Unit 2 RMS System, we have wanted training, 22 in-depth training on that for weeks and we were trying to get a training 23l manual made up for it and I myself went to Tom Mulleavy a number of 24 25; times and asked if he could formulate a training manual with the RMS l
l "O
313 o
9 1,
System put in it.
The end result was after months of waiting and 2
reminding.
We finally got a training, some type of manual made up for 3
Unit 1 and Unit 2 RMS Systems put together as one but we had never 4
went and set down and discussed it.
He brought back 6 or 7 copies back, handed them to me since I was the one involved trying to get it 5 ;
6 f rmulated and he had also wanted to have one formulated it also at this time.
Time being a factor and him being involved in other evolutions 7
g didn't get time to get it at the time I wanted it.
But knowing my g
knowledge in our department, actually set down in a lecture or a I
training room atmosphere on the RMS System in the Unit 2.
Fred Huwe, 10 who is Unit 2 Foreman, briefed I would say just about everybody in the department concerning different area atmosphere monitors and their peration.
Being that you had to change particulate, charcoal filters 13 each every for Unit vent and things like that.
But as far as the area 14!
I gamma monitors we were never taken around at least I myself was never 151 taken around Unit 2 and shown where all these area monitors were and 16t I
the only reason that I know where the ones are that I know is by looking at that manual and physically walking in the building to see 18{
where they're at.
And this is the type of training that we technical 19f training that we should of received at Unit 2 and I think they're confusing the technical training with on-the-job training but surely 21) we were there on-the-job if they were to consider that training but 22I technical training over there was almost null.
23 24 2s "O
314 t
10 1
YUHAS:
Let's move on to the next one.
Mr. Donnachie, the LA Water l
2:
Treatment System 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> dated 7/1/77, can you in sincereity say that 3
you did net receive that or has it been so long that you can't remember 4j receiving it?
5 6
00NNACHIE:
I can't in all sincereity say I've never received it.
I 7
may have received it but it just seems that 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> of a lecture 8
there, I can't remember ever sitting down for 8 hour9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> period on any one gl particular subject, much less than that, since that is a minor system.
10 The only thing I probably received the training the only thing that I 11 w uld question there would be the 8 hour9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> lecture that they have down n that.
12 13 YUHAS:
Mr. He Iman or Mr. Donnachie, can you confidently say that you did not receive t:e SAM II training that is noted on your record as being provided in a two hour lecture on 9/14/77?
I 17' 00NNACHIE:
Yes I can.
18l 19f i
HEILMAN:
Yes I also can.
20' 21 YUHAS:
At this time I'd like to present to you gentlemen for inspection a record titled " Training Program - Administrative Form" and the title for the course Item 1 was " Operational Use of SAM II", the dates of the course were provided was 9/12, 9/13 and 9/14, the location was 25!
i i
^~0 315 I
11 1
TMI, the course duration was 2 hours2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br />, the instructor is indicated as 2l T. Mulleavy and Sid Porter.
Item 6, personnel attending included in 3
this list are, V. Heilman and P. Donnachie, signature of the instructor i
4l is Tom Mulleavy dated 9/16/77, signature of the supervisor of training 5
is Richard Zeckman dated 1/7/77.
On the reverse side of the form the 6
instructors evaluation and I quote "all individuals were responsive to 7
the material as it was pres _nted, they were allowed to use the equipment g
and each demonstrated his ability to use the equipment."
The instructors signature is Thomas L. Mulleavy dated 9/16/77.
Again I ask Mr. Donnachie g
to review this form to indicate whether or not he signed and the comments on the back.
i 12l DONNACHIE:
No I haven't signed this document.
Nor do I have any knowledge of every sitting down for 2 hours2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> with Tom Mulleavy as an instructor as well as Sid Porter being the second instructor.
Concerning 16l the back as far as individuals being responsive to the material as it I
was presented and using the equipment and each document his ability to 171 I
use the equipment.
We weren't responsive to the material because it 18\\
was never given to us.
We weren't allowed to use the equipment unless 19I we were in baiches and took it upon ourselves to go over the equipment.
201 Before the emergency drill we even asked Mr. Mulleavy about our training 21 and being that it was, almost 8, 9 months ago I can't remember what his 22l response was but he said you will get the training and it was even 23 after the emergency drill for the training but as I said previously it 24 was never brought to us.
25; n,
i
12 1
HEILMAN:
I also did not sign the form but I must say in all honesty I 2
do remember Sid Porter being onsite with the SAM II, he had it back in 3
the Lab very very briefly one afternoon and it was close to the end of the shift and there was a lot of confusion.
If they want to call it a 4;
2 hour2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> training I guess they can.
But with, regarding the comment on 5 ;
6 the back Section ~7 I believe there was no hands-on training and I'm 7
sure I don't remember being responsive Decause it was just very vague 8
so in that respect I don't think it was any training.
9' 00NALDSON:
10, With regarding SAM II training in general, since 1977 when this document indicates that something was provided, have you been in a classroom situation before you had the chance to operate or be l
instructed on the operation of the equipment?
13l 14, HEILMAN:
No I haven't.
15i 16 00NNACHIE:
No I haven't either.
17 18j YUHAS:
Your training record indicates that ycu received rad monitor 19l 20 team training under Procedure 1670.9 on 9/28/78.
The review of documentation indicates that that training would of included use of equipment in the emergency kits, SAM II being an integral part of the emergency kit.
I 22 have before me for your inspection a training program administrative 23 form or the lesson title is " Rad Monitor Team Training" location TMI 24 and both Mr. Donnachie and Mr. Heilman, your names appear on this 25j
'" O 317 l
l i
13 l
1l form.
It indicates that you received a 2 hour2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> lecture.
Could you 2
comment on that Mr. Donnachie?
I 31 4
DONNACHIE:
This is.my handwriting and when was this given?
5l YUHAS:
September 28.
6 7
DONNACHIE:
9/28/78.
Okay this is a briefing.
We're briefed on 8
5 emergency drills every year and this is what we it more or less is.
g The lesson course if I can remember correctly and we'll have to then 10 substantiate this is when we were down in the training trailer that morning going over X/Q values, okay excuse me...
13 DONALDSON:
I think what your confusing that with another emergency training course that you have.
I 161 YUHAS:
While Mr. Donaldson is arranging some forms both training 17l records indicate 2 courses within a day of each other, one was Rad Monitor Team Training and the second was Accident Assessment Team Training.
I believe the Accident Assessment Team Training was provided by Mr. Landry where as the Rad Monitor Team Training was provided by Mr. Dubiel.
In the Accident Assessment Team Training the class included 22 Mr. Brian Deiter, yourselves, McCann, Greg Hitz, etc.
Now this is the 23 one out in the trailer with the isopleths offsite dose calculation.
24 25 l
"~0 318 i
P i
14 1
DONNACHIE:
That was a good training.
2l 3
YUHAS:
The following day the Rad Monitor Team Training was provided 4
by Mr. Mulleavy.
5 6
DONALDSON:
I wan to show you a this is a lesson plan.
The first page 7
is an extract out of the Emergency Plan Training Program and the 8
following pages are handwritten and represent what I assume to be the i
g lesson plan that should of been presented to meet the text of the 10 pr cedure.
You can glance at that real quick and see if the training 111 n this date in any way resembled what's documented in that procedura.
l 12}
RESNER:
13 Mr. Donnachie and Mr. Heilman are reviewing the document.
14l DONALDSON:
15 Does that look like any kind of formal training which you would of you had in 1978?
17 00NNACHIE:
No.
We, do you remember ever seeing this?
19 HEILMAN:
No, it all looks familiar because they we're certainly are all aware of all these things just through doing your job every day but as far as them sitting down no.
23 RESNER:
The last statement was Heilman.
24 25 1
"'O 319 t
l t
i
15 1
YUHAS:
I'd like to in reference to the Rad Monitor Team Training 2
present(.d on 9/28, I'd like to demonstrate or show you the inspectors 3
evaluation signed by Tom Mulleavy dated 9/28/78.
Item 7 indicates 4.
that the individuals asked many questions and after the session I feel 5
that they are now able to conduct themselves in an emergency in an 6l acceptable manner.
Do you remember this session with Mr. Mulleavy?
7 This session consisting of both of you and Mr. Dimeler and Mr. Pyke.
8 DONNACHIE:
g Although I don't remember the session it certainly seems 10 that I have my signature on the training sheet.
As far as Rad Monitor y
Team Training by the course criteria that they are supposed to be giving us I've had this training myself 2, 3 years ago as far as the context of this particular training manual.
But discussing going back to that particular day of 9/28/78 which isn't to long ago, I don't remember that particular lecture of Tcm Mulleavy and Tom Mulleavy 15; knows that we have asked him since that date on training from for the specifically SAM IIs.
I and members of my shift, and I can only state imfactically now to this point that we have not received that.
18{
i 19) l DONALDSON:
How can you, can you postulate on how your signature got 20' on that piece of paper?
21 22 DONNACHIE:
Just judging back, just remembering back of Rad Monitor 23 Team Training, it could of been a practice drill on going out and on 24j the Monitoring Teams but we did not use the SAM IIs, we may hava even 25!
f 0
320 i
16 i
1; taken a SAM II out of the pack.
Well to my knowledge I did not even 2.
use a SAM II because I didn't know how to use it.
3 4
DONALDSON:
Do you recall being on a training exercise in that period f time?
5 6l 00NNACHIE:
Yes, we were on a training exercise for the emergency 7
8 drill but these exercises are going out onto the field and actually performing a practice drill for the real exercise.
It doesn't include g
2 hour2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> 10 ci lecture training in the Lab on the use of the equipment.
11 DONALDSON:
I guess what I'm trying to fit in is this word drill keeps coming up, that appears where this training came from.
Is, in looking through the documentation of drills, now I think you had 6 practice i
14j 15l drills last year and then you got ready for the big one which NRC observed and that was in November.
So you had 6 leading up to the big 161 one and then you had another big one to make 7, I didn't find anywhere where there was a training exercise or a drill conducted in that month at all.
Now was this a very narrow scope drill or was it involving 19!
l just people who would be on the Monitorii.g Team?
20!
1 2 11 00NNACHIE:
I'm just assuming.
I can't remember what exactly this 22 I can only assume tha'. it may have been a Monitoring Team Drill was.
23 although if the NRC drill was in November it probably wasn't a radiation 24 drill than in September.
25' n,
032[
I
17 1
DONALDSON:
Okay.
So to the best of your recollection....
2:
31 DONNACHIE:
The best of my recollection I can not say whether that was 4) a drill or a, it certainly wasn't a 2 hour2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> lecture on the SAM II.
5 6l DONALDSON:
Okay fine.
Let me ask both of you gentlemen again just 7
for the record being clear that your signatures, those are your signatures 8
made by your own hand on the copies?
9' DONNACHIE:
Yes.
10 11{
HEILMAN:
Yes.
I'd like to add scmething.
If in fact we did receive this training, it must of been so shallow and vague that we don't 3
remember it.
So what really good did it do?
15 DONALDSON:
Why I go back to my questioning you had a chance to look g
over the lesson plan, if it did not cover the scope as outlined in the training procedure 1670.9 and in the accompanying lesson outline i
then... is that what your saying?
19f 20!
HEILMAN:
Yes.
It would appear to me.
22 DONALDSON:
Okay.
23 n~0 3M 24 25 l
l t
{
l t
18 1
YUHAS:
Let's proceed on.
The drill was held November 8 I believe 19 2f The tape cuts off.
i 3!
i 4{
DONNACHIE:
Judging from that, that was R per hour.
5 6
DONALDSON:
Okay.
35 R per hour.
Now what would you have done with 7
that, would you have looked at 35 R per hour here or would you have g
multipled that by 100?
9 DONNACHIE:
That is what I had calculated it out to be 35,000 R per 10, hour.
11 The meter itself must have read 3500, let me think back a moment.
The meter was 3/4 scale on the readout.
y 13 DONAL0 SON:
What range was that?
15l 00NNACHIE:
That must that would of had to been up around... that should have been mR per hour because that was up around 10 to the 4th or 5th counts.
18!
19l DONALDSON:
What was the scale set at on the meter, was it at 10 to the 5th, 10 to the 6th, 10 to the 7th?
I 22' 00NNACHIE:
I don't believe it...
I can't say definitiely what it went up to.
24 25i i
" O 323 i
t
19 1
DONALDSON:
You know there's a little switch on the side full scale 2
can be, you know, any number of decades from 10 up to 10 to the 7th mR 3
per hour.
Is that your understanding of that meter or does this go 4
back to your being trained in that...
5 DONNACHIE:
This goes back to failure to be trained.
The only reason 6
I went out there was I was interested to see what the dome monitor was 7
reading.
g 9
DONALDSON:
Would you be able to implement that procedure with what 10 you know about HPR-214?
3 12
" Y "*
- 13 14i l
DONAL0 SON:
Thank you.
15!
16l YUHAS:
Just a couple of very brief questions for Mr. Donnachie.
The first couple of days of the event, did you enter the Auxiliary Building?
19f HEILMAN:
You said Donnachie.
20 21 YUHAS:
Excuse me I'm sorry.
Mr. Heilman in the first couple of days 22 did you enter the Auxiliary Building?
24 25l l
n O 324
20 1
HEILMAN:
Yes I did.
In fact you were,...the first time I ever met 2
you or saw you.
We went down to draw a sample HPR-227 which is the 3
Reactor Building air monitor and we tried to get the sample.
They 4
wanted the hydrogen oxygen content of that sample.
So I did enter on 5
that occasion.
I think that's the only time, that was the second day 6
after the accident I believe.
7 YUHAS:
Yes that would of been the third day.
8 9
HEILMAN:
Third day okay.
10 11 YUHAS:
That would of been Friday night and that would of been your first entry into the Auxiliary Building?
13 14 n
e n Au nu ng.
es.
15 I
16j YUHAS:
Okay.
Where did you spend most of your time during the first three days of the event?
19 HEILMAN:
Most of the time was spent in the Site Protection Building or the Processing Center, HP Monitor, issuing masks, frisking people that type thing.
We did make one entry into the Unit I control point to retrieve some instruments I believe and just to make a general 23 survey of the area.
24 "O 325 25l I
I
21 lj YUHAS:
Do you remember when the charcoal cartridges first began 2
arriving?
3 4j HEILMAN:
Some of the charcoal cartridges were there when I got there 5
which was the afternoon of the 29th.
They were in that same cartridge, 6
they were already there.
7 YUHAS:
Okay.
During the first three days, did you get involved in g
g reading any personnel dosimeters, TLDs over at the Observation Center?
10' HEILMAN:
No I didn't.
To the best of my knowledge a person who did 3
most of that was one of our technicians, Ed Egenrider and he in fact he did probably the entire entirety because he was here for 48 hours5.555556e-4 days <br />0.0133 hours <br />7.936508e-5 weeks <br />1.8264e-5 months <br /> 13 and I was on the island most of the entire time.
I didn't get into 15 l
16l YUHAS:
I don't have any further questions at this time.
I want to thank both of you for coming here and I guess the conclusion of this interview is that both of you are firm in that you did not receive the SAf1 II training as described on your training records and that for you 201 Mr. Heilman, you were not trained until Mr. Porter trained you after the incident and as far as I understand you have yet to be trained Mr.
Donnachie, is that correct?
23 24 0
326 25!
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i I
i
22 1
DONNACHIE:
This is true.
Let me make a comment.
When I refer to 2
training in my own knowledge is what I understand some of it.
They 3
could have you know said this is a SAM II and this is what it looks 4
like but that doesn't mean anything to me until I find out how to 5
operate it, so if they want to call that training they have it documented 6{
and they say they gave it to us but maybe they just covered their 7
butts but it doesn't really mean anything because I didn't understand it.
Now I do and it only took a few 10-15 minutes to show it.
g 9
DONALDSON:
Just a final comment.
We'd ask that you not discuss the 10 11 text of our discussions with you until we've had a chance to talk to 12 some other people involved, we don't want to color their testimony with anything you may discuss.
13 14 NA H Okay.
15 16!
HEILMAN:
Okay.
18i RESNER:
The last response was Mr. Heilman's and this concludes the 19 interview of Mr. Heilman and Mr. Donnachie and the time now is 4:31.
20 21 22 n
0 3 0,,.
23 24 25 i
r