ML19249A995
| ML19249A995 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 05/08/1979 |
| From: | Winks R BABCOCK & WILCOX CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7908280705 | |
| Download: ML19249A995 (20) | |
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l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REG'JLATORY CCMMISSION i
i t
q In the Matter of:
2!
IE TMI INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW l
of Mr. Robert W. Winks Principal Engineer Babcock and Wilcox Corporation Nuclear Power Generation Division Si REPRESENTATIVE 6i Mr. Bryon D. Nelson 7
Assistant Council Babcock and Wilcox Corporation 8:
Muclear Power Generation Division Trailer #203 9i NRC Investigation Site TMI Nuclear Power Plant 10f Middletown, Pennsyhania 11!
May 8, 1979 12!
(Date or Interview) lh June 29, 1979 (Date Transcript Typeo) 1?!
185 1E{
(Tape Numcer(s))
16i 17t 18i 19!
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NRC PERSONNEL:
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Mr. James S. Creswell 23l Mr. Owen C. Shackleton 24, 25:
7W2/0705~
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SHACKLETON-This is an interview of Mr. Robert W. Winks.
Mr. Winks is the i
2j Principal Engineer for the Babcock and Wilcox Corporation, the Nuclear t
3i Power Ganeration Division.
This interview is taking place at 3:40 p.m.
4 eastern daylight time, May 8, 1979.
Interview is being conducted in the 5[
office building of Babcock and Wilcox Incorporated in Lynchburg, Virginia.
I 61 Present to conduct this interviaw from the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commis-7 sion is Mr. James S. Creswell. Mr. Creswell is presently assigned to Region 8
III as a reactor inspector.
My name is Owen C. Shackleton.
I'm an investi-gj gator assigned to Region V.
Just prior to going on tape, I presented to 10 Mr. Winks a two p:ge document from the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 11 which outlines the purpose and scope of this investigation and the authority 12 by which the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission can conduct this investi-g tion.
This document further specifies Mr. Winks rights to refuse to be 13 tg interviewed or to submit a signed statement.
It also advises him that he 15 has the right to have anyone of Dis choosing present for this interview.
Mr. Winks chose to have Mr. Byron D. Nelson, che Assistant Counsel for gl Babcock and Wilcox Incorporated, present for this interview.
On the second page of this documeat are listed three questions to which Mr. Winks answered in the affirmative in writing.
At this time to make it a matter of record I am going to repeat these questions and ask Mr. Winks to please respond.
Mr. Winks did you understand the contents of the document I am referring 21j i
to?
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WINKS:
Yes.
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1 SHACKLETCN:
And do we, the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 2f have permission to tape this interview?
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4 WINKS:
Yes.
Si i
d SHACKLETON:
And I understand that you would like a copy of the tape of 7
this interview.
8 WINKS:
Yes.
g 10!
SHACKLETON:
11)l Alright sir that will be provided.
And now Mr. Winks for the 12l benefit of those persons who will be listening to the information that you 13 are furnishing us would you please briefly give your own background in the nuclear industry and your present job responsibilities, g
i 15i WINKS:
My background in the nuclear industry starts in my college days while I worked for Los Alamos Scient.ric Laboratory.
Upon graduation in 1956, I took or a job with Los Alamos Scientific Labo.atory and held that joD for less than a year.
I chose to go to another company in Denver, Colorado, and in the employment of that company, several years later, we 21l again returned to a nuclear rocket engine / vehicle design project.
From that project I left that company, rejoined Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory 22l and was assigned to work at Las Vegas, Nevada.
For eight years we were testing nuclear rocket engine prototypes and when that progrcm ended I then 24i was employed by Babcock and Wilcox here in Lynchburg.
I've been here six 25j i
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years.
I am a Principal Engineer in the Plant Design Section of the Engi-2l neering Department of Babcock and Wilcox here in Lynchburg.
I 31 l
4j SHACKLETON:
Thank you very much Mr. Winks.
Now I'll turn the interview Sj over to Mr. Creswell.
6i 7
CRESWELL:
Mr. Winks in the conduct of your employment here at Nuclear 8
Power Generation Division, what is your area of expertise?
91 WINKS:
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Plant performance, and I'm in a Controls Analysis and Evaluation i
11:
Department or Section and my main effort ever since I joined this company p
is to follow the startup program, resolve problems in either plant perfor-i 3{
m nce or behavior of the plant in response to transients and attempt to bring the plant and the ICS and the operator action even to that which is 15; desired by the design of this plant.
16:
17l CRESWELL:
Okay Mr. Winks I'd like if se could to go back to the date of
, 1979 and to the point in time which you first became aware of an 18!
1? >l event or occurrence at the Three Mile Island Unit 2 Facility.
Could you approximately place that in time and the conditions under which ycu became aware of the event?
21; 22l l
WINKS:
I was in Alan Wolnack's office.
He is Section Leader of Plant 231 Design Section, prior to 8.C0 in the morning, talking about another subject, l
24 unrelated, when Dr. Don Roy entered the room and informed us of an emergency 25:
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at TMI-2.
He sat down long enough to give us a very very brief sketch of 2l what was going on there at which time I immediately volunteered to be part i
3i of a team to go up and look into what was... what had happened...what was 4l happening up there.. offer to go to the site and contribute.
My contribu-Si tion would be understanding what had been recorded and what that meant to l
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us and was not in ny way to tell operators or to tell the cus+nmer what to 7
do; that is not my strongpoint.
8 gj CRESWELL:
Okay thank you Mr. Winks.
You say that you were in Mr.
I 10j Wolnacks' office at 8:00.
Was that approximately the time that Dr. Roy 11 came in?
12; WINKS:
A few minutes before 8:00 right.
73 I
14!
CRESWELL:
Okay.
Did Mr.
did Dr. Roy indicate how he had found out 15 16l ab ut the event?
t 17!
WINKS:
I believe he was called by Spangler of Nuclear Service. I wouldn't 18; say that absolutely for sure but I believe that's my recollection of at g
Conversation.
21f CRESWELL:
Okay.
Now you mentioned that your role at that point in time 22;;
would be of an evaluation nature of data, is that correct? And that possibly you..would you from that evaluation make certain recommendations to either i
24!
25:l your company or to the licensee?
Excuse me, the word licensee in this l
context means your client, the Metropolitan Edison Comoany?
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WINKS:
In the role that I saw coming up, I think I would nave been mainly i
2; answering back to B&W people here.
A team selected to go as quickly as 3l possible to see what we could obtain from the plant...I think, without even i
4j pondering it very 1;;ng we knew the reactimeter was there, the reactimeter 5
was gathering data but was an assumption it actually could have been off l
6l but assuming that it was up and running we'C '1 ave then delogged it and 7j looked at the data and decided what were the instigatingly.. situation and g
then what followed after that.
It would be a more of a post-mortem, it gj could also be used by the people here as a where do we go from here?
i 10jg CRESWELL What was your recollection of what Dr Roy described as the i
condition of the plant at that point in time?
I 13j WINKS:
I can't even recall what he said, to be honest.
I haven't even thought about trying to reconstruct that description.
I better just say I 15!
don't know.
16 r
17l CRESWELL:
Okay.
After this happens what were the next events of which you 18i participate in that morning?
20l 21;l WINKS:
There was a meeting called approximately about 10 to 10:30, and ncw there were probably about 50 people in that meeting all who have in the i
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I past taken an active part in problems occurring at sites under startup, 231 generally coordinated between lead people in engineering and lead people in 24!
nuclear service and one of these meetings was in progress and I attended it 25i gg j\\
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lj very late.
I walked in and they said well you know that you're going.
I 2
said yeah I volunteered.
No, its been definitely decided that you will l
3j catch a plane and you will be leaving at such and such a time.
I was i
really attending to some other function and that was why I didn't happen to 5'
La there are the very beginning of that meeting.
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f CRESWELL:
The other function, Bob, would have been?
8 gj CRESWELL & WINKS:
Just other work related to the event.
I 10' WINKS:
Yeah the TMI-2 event.
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12l CRESWELL:
g You mentioned that someone told you that you would be going.
Do i
you recollect who that was?
15!
WINKS:
No in fact there was quite a few people standing near the back door as I walked in and it's as if..well if you didn't know we are telling you now.
18!
19t CRESWELL:
Okay.
Do you recollect who was in charge of that meeting?
i 21i WINKS:
I think Spangler was in charge of the meeting but right along side 22l of him was both Wolmack and Roy, and so there probably was three, four, 23 fi.e people maybe all in essentially trying to direct the meeting.
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11 CRESWELL:
Okay. Did you attend the meeting for any length of time were i
2 there any other items discussed other than which you've related?
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4l WINKS:
No I didn't attend it very long.
I got quite near the end and if 5
there was a discussion I believe that what we had then was people describing 6
maybe what Bill Spangler had told Roy and that this was now disseminating 7
it into the various representatives or tne various people that normally take an interest in solving site problems.
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9 CRESWELL:
Okay.
So you'd been informed that you are going, what's the 10 11l next thing that happens?
12!
WINKS:
13 We were told that there sauld be a chartered flight ready and
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waiting and it would be time to go home and get packed and we quickly made pl ns for some people to get home and get packed and get back to B&W and 15 then go to the airport.
But it eventually ended that we went home got 16 packed and went straight to the airport and much of what I wanted to take at my desk I didn't get to take.
So I arrived with about a pen in my pocket or something like that, which, I don't normally go that way.
We arrived at the airport around 11:00 maybe a little before a little after I 4
20:
I can't remember exactly, and the three Of us were there and the plane was 21',
ready.
22; i
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CRESWELL:
This was a charter type of aircraft.
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I WINKS:
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A small five seater or three sea:.er...no five seater, two engine 2,
charter planc.
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CRESWELL:
Okay. Do yoe recall approximately what time the plane departed 5l from... was it the Lynchburg Municipal Airport? Do you recall what time it 6
t k off?
i 71 WINKS:
Well shortly after 11:00.
8 Si CRESWELL:
Okay.
And then what time did you arrive...I assume that you 10 i
would have arrived... arrived at the 1
12!
CRESWELL & WINKS:
Harrisburg International 13) i 141 WINKS:
And that's about two hours later.
We' re about 1:00 or there abouts maybe a tiny bit after.
17l l
CRESWELL:
Okay.
At this point in time I'd like to digress..did you have 18I any communications prior to this point in time with anyone at the site or were you aware of any communications from anyone at the site? Now the site 21(l would be anyone in the vicinity of the plant including.
22 WINKS:
No I didn't.
Anything like prior to quarter of eight or anything l
prior to leaving on the airplane?
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CRESWEQ:
Right.
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i 3l WINKS:
No.
t 4f Si CRESWELL:
Okay.
So your information about what had transpired as iar as I
6l the event is concerned would have come from other individuals witnin this 7
organization here in Lynchburg.
Okay.
Upon your arrival at Harrisburg g
what did you do?
l 9
WINKS:
10l We rented cars at the airport...we already had a map of how to 11 get...well I guess we called Greg Schaedei and got a map of how to get to his house and then just took off and.. essentially he lives I believe in n rtheast Harrisburg..and wt= got there and entered his house 1:30 or 3
something in that time frame.
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CRESWELL:
Upon arrival at his home... let me digress o.ie niore time you said we, there were some other individuals with you would you name those indivi-17l duals please?
18j 19i WINKS:
Bob Twilly in Nuclear Service and Joe Kelly another individual in Plant Design but more in a Integration role.
t 22l CRESWELL:
Okay.
So you arrived at Mr. Schaedel's residence 23) 24 25i f
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WINKS:
His wife let us in Gieg was on the teleph>
. I vaguely rememtier...
2 I believe he was on the telephone..I won't even say I can't remember who 3;
because we had just walked in Trc met her and... Joe Kelly had worked at i
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Florida with Greg Schaedel... knew his wife quite well..so there's quite a 5
greeting period there rather than just going right to where Greg was to l
61 hear the conversation, so I missed who he was talking to.
7 CRESWELL:
Okay.
That would have been at the Crystal River Facility?
g 9f 10l WINKS:
Yeah.
11' CRESWELL:
Okay.
So after Greg got off the telephone, what nappened?
I 131 WINKS:
14!
He told us a little bit about the condition of *he plant, the I
communication that he was having with Lee...I bel ave it's that time that I 15; learned that they had this thing happen about 4 in the morning but it was 16!
00 I guess and Lee went in by 6:30 or something like that..he wasn't 17I called immediately...and that he's still there working with them and trying 18; to bring the situation under control, and that it's like an agreement he'll be call Ng me, Greg, periodically.
I 21l CRESWELL:
Okay.
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WINKS:
We were then getting, you know, an offhand or a brief description 24l through Greg.
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CRESWELL:
What did that brW description con: i:,t of?
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l 31 WINKS:
I'm trying to think now I've seen so much data and I've seen so i
4l many sequence of events to rule that out and try to think okay in his house t
Sj what did we know...we knew that the pumps were off and that there was a 6
bubble or vapor up in the top of the hotleg feeding the steam generator, 7
and that this...when you hear it for the first time your thoughts has to do g
with natural circulation and that how much effort or concarr or work that g
was being done to, to do something about that bubble.
So that probably is 10l about the extent, in other words, causes of failure and sequence of events 11!
and what the operators doing, all that comes out later, when you begin to g
see the data that we were plotting up or...but in the moment that we' re in 13 Schaedel's house I t'elieve the only thing we were to know is tryir.g to have i
natural circulation no pumps on, trying to do something about getting a 15l pump n 5at's probably the limit.
16j 17{!
Based on this information nere what..what did you feel ought to CRESWELL:
be done?
18r 19i j
WINKS:
I don't have any strong feeling on that.
The reason I say that you 2m have to..to see now far out of out of realm that for me.
The way our 21l Plant Design Section is set up we have accident analysis and ECCS and 22l l
Control Analysis which is more like just straight operational or...now what 2 31 24l you've done here is you've taken me all the way to the other end and here is essentially an ECCS thing...how do you speculate on the right or wrong 25!
things to do?
I'm way out in left field to answer that ouestion.
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681 351 1
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CRESWELL:
Okay.
Well how did you perceive your role in Mr. Schaedel's l
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residence here at that time?
l 31 l
4f WINKS:
We were planning to get on site whenever possible, whenever allowed, f
Sj for the main purpose of taking the data that was bei,:g logged look at it I
6i and make judgments based on the data...again I say to plan to go on the 7
site and go in the control room and see the condition as it is and project, 8
I had no rian to do that.
i 10 CRESWELL:
Okay.
In other words you felt that you would have to have data 11!
to evaluate before you could make recommendation?
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WINKS:
No it's not my job to make a recommendation in that vane that is I'm not to redirect decisions by the client or tell the operators that I want them to do this.
It's way beyond my..my responsibility.
15 16r CRESWELL:
Okay.
After you had performed an evaluation of the data would g
you communicate the results of your evaluation to someone else.
19l WINKS:
Oh yeah, in fact, at that point it's to be presentable to B&W here and the customer so that they can see what's going on or wr,at has gone on 21; f
or where they've been or where t.ney've got to go..so I'm leaving that 22l i
decision really for someone else more operations oriented.
231 24 25
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1l CRESWELL:
Okay.
Who in the B&W organization would you relay the results I
2l of your evaluation to?
3!
i 4j WINKS:
Well, actually we did when finally twenty figures were prepared 5'
they were all xeroxed as quickly as possible down to this war room so that 6
engineering and nuclear service all those that were part of this task force 7
now saw from time zero what was happening.
8 g
CRESWELL:
Okay.
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10' CRESWELL & WINKS:
11 12; t
CRESWELL:
13!
.. i.-to a later point in time... I'd like if we could to move ck 14 15; 16i 17!
CRESWELL:
.to a time where you had entered Mr. Schaedel's residence he 19;:
had gotten off the telephone you had discussed certain parameters your main purpose at this point was to plan to get on site and do some data evaluation.
What's... If that's not a fair characterization please correct me?
22 l
WINKS:
I think it's fair.
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lj CRESWELL:
Okay.
What was the next thing that happened?
i 2!
3 WINKS:
We essentially stayed in his house from 1:30 till 7:30 or even 4j closer to 8 maybe and were interested in the periodic conversations between 5
Rogers and Schaedel.
We did not hear any of them, Greg would say things I 6.
believe while he was talking or if he didn't then he would tend to give us 7
some kind of a summary in several more phone calls that afternoon.
I don't 8f believe there was an awful lot more added...of course in that time frame we gl went through an exercise or depressurization type exercise and they said f
10[;
that was successful in dislodging the bubble, there was water around the 11l pump the pump was started we now had one pump running. I think there was a iy tremendous amount of relief felt not only in myself but in all the others in Schaedel's hocse on that mcment.
I think when that point came Lee was 13 going to go home...we saw a lot of pressure off at that moment anyway and we finally about 8 or so went out to have dinner.
15 161 CRESWELL:
Bob you mentioned that everyone in the house felt a great deal gl of relief when the pump was started.
a.at was the source of this feeling?
Why did you feel relieved?
201 WINKS:
I think most of us knew that if you have a core and you are depending 21; i
on natural circulation and there's a bubble of that size, that must be 22l effecting natural circulation.
We had temperatures that were indicating.
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temperature numbers that were indicating almost unbelievable values of 24j fluid temperature in the hotleg..we just, as I remember..of course I'm 25!
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biased again by the data that I saw..but prior to starting the pump the l
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hotlegs came down and I believe Lee told Greg that, so we knew something l
3l about looks like we had collapsed the bubble or moved it..so I think I l
4l could safely or correctly say that we knew something about that prior to 5
the actual seeing of the data.
And so it meant really to us, we got cooling 6i back, that's how I think of the great relief that we felt.
7 8'
CRESWELL:
If they hadn't... if cooling hadn't been reestablished what would g.
have been the consequences?
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WINKS:
I don't Know.
12 CRESWELL:
Okay.
So about 8:00 you went tu dinner and what, what's the 13 i
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next thing that happened?
14 15!
WINKS:
16:
We did not return to Schaedel's house that night and we finally i
found this motel that we were staying in Hershey and ch fairly ectly in the evening retired. I got a call ch about 6 in the ":orning from Greg saying alright you have been chosen to be the first ones on, it wasn' t any of the
, it was myself and then people who are at the site who process e
20j data, John Putnam ana John Clinton.
As I recall John Putnam was in that 21l l
evening while I was in the motel sleeping and he continued to stay on that 22l i
morning and work with me as a two man data reduction team and we got 23l 24l out the first eight minutes of the transient as fast as possible and circu-lated that information both the NRC people...I believe, no they weren't
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there yet...the second day when we had more figures...we gave them the l
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figures, but we took those figures and...there were people interested in I
3l making copies, as I recall Lee was there..
4!
5 CRESWELL:
Lee Rogers?
6i 7
WINKS:
Yes, and he said let me have these I'll make copies and we'll give 8
these ta GPU, Met Ed and I believe we transmitted that first eight...I'm g
unclear now..but I believe we transmitted that first eight via telecopy 10!
machine to Lynchburg...if not, then it was postponed a day and we got all i
11l twenty at one shot, but one way or the other as soon as we could get a 1y group of figures of finite time period why we transmitted it, 13 i
CRESWELL:
Okay.
How were those tweaty figures prepared?
15j 15 sets of reacdmeter tape, that I mean Gat, print-e s
1,,;
out that comes off ana these were divided into the original copy VMich we had and then the second copy which went to GPU.
We were really the only official plotters or data reducers, GPU was not at the same time doing the 19t same effort, but they could look up any value if they wanted to they could scan it..and so we were making the plots, and everyone was giving us a 21;.
free hand, well just go and get it all done we'll leave you undisturbed 22l; here.
It's the kind of thing I'm very familiar with that is to take reacti-23' meter data that's been printed out and and know it and know it's time 24j 25;l between steps, know its values, it's converted genenote to engineering bb)
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units and just go.
There was nothing srong with this data, it was all i
2l continuous there were no power interruptions there was nothing that was out I
3!
of the ordinary, it was just, let's ge'. with it and so we worked basically 4
twelve hours in getting the first batch out and then when Twilly and Kelly 5) came on their task was here's more tape reduce.
It has about a twenty-four I
6i hour capacity.
Here are the next fifteen sixteen hours also printed out 7(
duplicate copy, now you take and extend the transient as it's plotted out l
8l to about the first seventeen hours, that was finished then in the next gj twelve hour shift and I believe either they transmitted or we transmitted 10 it the following morning, everything.
I'm a little unclear as to when all I
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twenty copies were cent to Lynchburg and also given to NRC.
But just as I
g fast as we could get it out.
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CRESWELL:
To your knowledge that was the first telefax telecopy type of
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information that had been sent to corporate offices in Lynchburg from the site?
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WINKS:
No, there might have been some other things.
I happened to have been there for more than those twelve hours...a nt.mber of days..and it was 19i Engineering's or B&W's action to recuest information frcm B&W site personnel 21;l which had access to the control rocn and they might have very easily put down numbers on a piece of paper in answer to a specific verbal requect and I
these could have easily been transmitted long before I got all these figures 23I done. I can't really tell you accurately, but there is that possibility 2.5;[
that they were answering other questions, just randomly picking up readings i
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1l and sending that. That would be, you know, that would be current and we I
2; would be bringing up the the particulars of the start of the transient.
I 3l 4
CRESWELL:
To your knowledge was~any oriainal charts, records, data, magnetic 5
tapes, any other types of records transmitted to Lynchburg for analysis?
6 7
WINKS:
Not to my knowledge.
8 CRESWELL:
For instance, reactimeter and magnetic tapes would have been gi 10 duplicated at the site...
uj 12l WINKS:
There was a lot of concern and I'm really not the one to talk to.
13 You would be best to talk to John Flynn.
Concerns about how to gat that pl tape how to reproduce it, I believe that tape did come down here eventually, Y
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15 and forth how scan is that tape free to come down here and be dumped or printed out and back again.
So other than that I don't want to really talk about it much because I really don't know too much about it.
19i CRESWELL:
Okay. Just I'm asking you what you have.
you personally have 20j l
knowledge of. Do you personally have in your possession the original dita 21; from the plant?
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23 WINKS:
No I don't.
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CRESWELL:
Owen do you have some questions that you would like to ask l
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Mr. Winks?
l 3t 4j SHACKLETON:
No I can't think of anything right now, Bob or Jim.
I think 5
we've covered ah...
alright I'll turn it back to you.
6i 7
CRESWELL:
Mr. Winks in your capacity as a Principal Engineer, in evaluating g
transients, have you previously evaluated transients at the ThI facility gi that would have a similar nature to this event that occurred on March 28, i
10f 1978, 79 excuse me?
11' WINKS:
The way I understand that is, have I seen evidence at TMI-2 of a 3
in bility of the auxiliary feed water system to start, would that be the 13 f
14; better way to say it am I understanding you right?
15j 16; CRESWELL: Well, the March 28, 1979 event I think it's been fairly well established involves a 1 css of feed water condition okay.
18 CRESWELL:
Okay, have you looked at transients regarding the plant behavior g
during a loss of feed water event previously?
20 l
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WINKS:
I don't believe I have saen loss of feed water event at TMI-2.
22!
I've seen them at other places that you and I are familiar with, but I've not seen one at TMI-2.
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CRESWELL:
Okay.
Have you...I think it's also been fairly well determined i
2!
that there was an opening of the electromatic relief valve the so called I
31 EMOV during this event and that it stayed open for a prolonged period of i
4{
time.
Have you previously analyzed data frcm TMI that would have involved t'
5 an avent with similar circumstances?
6l 7
WINKS:
No.
That denial doesn't mean it never existed, it means I was l
81 never exposed to anything..
?
9l 10l CRESWELL:
I am just asking you if you personally were involved at all?
}
11!
WINKS:
No.
12 13 74l CRESWELL:
Okay Mr. Winks we appreciate very much your taking your time out this afternoon and discussing these matters with us.
15 i
161 SHACKLETON:
17j!
As there are no further comments to be made we will close this interview at this time.
The time iS now 4:18 p.m. eastern daylight time, May 8, 1979.
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23l 241 l
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