ML19249A030

Transcript of 790724 Discussion of Personnel Matter.Pp 1-35

ML19249A030
Person / Time
Issue date:	07/24/1979
From:	Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
Shared Package
ML19249A027	List: ML19249A026 ML19249A030
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7908170587
Download: ML19249A030 (36)

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.Mi--J DISCUSSION O'#. 2ERSONNEL 'MA'1"I'ER.. ~ '-

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July 24, 1979 2

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1 lj UNITED STATES OF A.stERICA NUCLEAR REGUIJCORY CCOiISSICN t

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Discussion of Personnel Matter i

(Closed to Public Attendance) 4 S'

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Chairman's Conference Room i

1717 H Street, N.W.

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Washington, D.

C.

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h Tuesday, July 24, 1979 10

].

I 11 The cccm.tssion met, pursuant to notice, at 11:35 a.m.,

12 Joseph liendrie, Chairman of the Commission, presiding.

I 13

[

I PRESENT:

14 Chairman Hendrie 15 j!

Commissioner Gilinsky il commissin-a-va,-aay 13 16 j

Cctmissioner Bradford i

17 i

1 ALSO PRESENT:

I 1S L. Bickwit P. Crane f

S. Ostrach 20

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(Note:

This transcript was prepared from a tape recording, July 24, 1979.)

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Okay, we have got the tape 3

'l running and the first thing I have to ask you to do is join t

4 me in voting to close this personnel discussion, because I 7

want to talk primarily this morning about the TMI One Board.

6 We hr a had a reco:me.undation as to members, and-that, I think, 7

clearly lies under the personal infor:ta tion exemption of the 8

Sunshine Act.

9 Before I do ask for the vote, however, Len, the i

f discussion of your memorandum is not so clearly a personnel 10 il 11 j! matter.

In fact, it is an open question.

Now, what shall we do i'

12 about that?

13 ij MR. BIC1"dIT :

It relates to your selection process, 14 l and I think it is within the reach.

15 COM'4ISSIONER GILINSKY:

Of a person.nel meeting?

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MR. BICKWIT:

You asked us to produce it in 6

H 17 l connection with your selection of people for the Board.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIZ :

Okay, with that ruling, I will il il then ask us to vote on closing the meeting.

19 Those in favor?

20 I

d COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Aye.

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CC '.MISSICNER KENNEDY : Ave.

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p CHAI?24AN EINDRIE : Aye.

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3 the meeting to discuss personnel or to discuss this.emorandum?

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CHAIRMAN HINDRII: Both.

They c.ze part of a determin-2 ation of coming to a selection of the Board Members for the 3 !! TMI One hearing.

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4 i CO01ISSICNER GILINSKY:

If it is to be closed, it woul; i

5' lI seem to me on the basis of seme sort of - I guess it would seen I

6 l to me on the basis of some other' reason.

t 1h MR. BICKWIT:

Well, you have other reasons in that 7

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Exemption 10 would be applicable.

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CO!O1ISSIONER GILINSKY: And 10 is?

9.

10.. j MR. BICKWIT:

Ten is a matter w=ich specificallir l'

!. concerns the agency's initiation, conduc or disposition of

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{t a case of formal agency adjudication.

That is clearly on point.

1 13 I would say the policy grounds f or closing with i

14 respect to the personnel question and a dizect bearing on that

.II U question is stronger than the grounds for closing it on the

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" basis of Exe=ption 10, but I would say that the legal grounds

,..e l: for closing en the basis of Exemetion 10 are stronger than the 3

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1P lecal crou.ds for closing the entire matter on the basis of 13 n

3, j Exenption 6.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Would it be accrocriate then to

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p cite both exe=rtiens in connection with t2his meeting?

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MR. BICKWIT:

Yes.

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CHAIRM.'; HENORII: Would that er ovide an accec table ---

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V2. 0, I'll take your nod as at least noting without 2

!! objection, if not outright go, and declare the meeting closed

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3 l under Exemptions 6 and 10.

2 Wh.v don't we go ahead then with the discussion of the

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memorandum that you prepared, Len.

MR. BICKWIT: All right.

6 CHAIR *4AN HENDRIE: Since we have all just gotten 7

th'is, I think you could usefully march us through this in g

i, summary fashion.

I tried t'o read it during the meeting, and 9

g r ugh h wb3 dismcdons, M. da. oe.ers q not. P. ave 10 1

i had a chance to see it.

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19 MR. BICKWIT: Well, let me start with the caveat that this is the first cut, which is what we were asked to do.

' 3 th CHAIRMAN HENDRII:

Yes.

14 l-MR. BICKWIT:

We weran't, in fact, asked to do it 1 o**

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. in a paper, but we thought it wculd ;e useful.

ll Cur first cut is ' Sat on the issue of wheuher the 7

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ublic health, as used in the Atomic Energy Act once= pas ses e

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' mental as well as physical health, and we dc not believe that 19 it does.

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We cite, in suct. ort of that, the New Hampshire v.

ll NRC case -- the AEC case, which is not directly in point, but

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4 1:l'sucaests that courts do not co cut of their wav to read public

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to include matters of doubtful er health and safetv, questionable inclusion within that clause.

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any history -- I'm sorry, but I have only seen the ueno --

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[ on this point at all?

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BICKWIT: No, no.

All you have is a case ---

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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

So that: what you are really 5'

i sa. vin 9 is that"the cest inference from the f ailure to nentien-6 it anywhere is that it is net included.

7 MR. BICKWIT:

Yes, and also, from the case that rules 8

cut consideration of thermal pollution effects as enCompaJsed 9

by the phrase, "public health and saf ety. "'

That suggests that A

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! evidence that public health and safety was meant to include a 12 given interest.

In that case, they did not find such history, 1

13 l and in this case, as far as our research shows, they, won't find i

il et 14 ll it either.

15 il COMMISSIONER BRADFOPIs :

Let's see, the First il 15 v; Circuit -- that case predated NEPA ---

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MR. BICFWIT: That's right.

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13 COMMISSICNER BRADFORD:

-- and s ~.nce NEPA the First il 9

h Circuit did say that we could take es thecics into account 1

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M2 BICKWIT:

Yes.

3 We =Oved on- -- I don ' t know whecher that case said 3.,

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t that vcu could take it La into account under NEPA or because of NEPA cr under the Atcnic Energy Act.

My guess was that ic was one of the. first two, and that leads uc

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u, y p our paper, which is the question that we address in that part f the paper is, "Does the Co==ission have any obligation under 2

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NEPA to examine the osvchological imoact of lj censing TMI One."

3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Before you get to that one, 4

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6 mental h. alth.

We may be faced with a messier sort of i

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physical crocositicr. where someone has been irradiated and has l

symptoms an1 some people,-I think, are destroyed by fear, but 9

how is he t', distinguish those things?

10 jl MR. BICKWIT:

Well, clearly, if you have goti that 11

'i kind of a situation, you have to try to segregate it into its 12 elenents.

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( think that there would be any doubt that it was within the range

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lj CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

In other words, if scmeone has 14 18 h

COMMISSTONER ERAD.rORD:

Mic'aine headaches since 19 Three Mile Island.

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.l' CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

-- or heart palpitations or

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n i; health category?

MR. BICK7;I'~. :

I guess that's a question thaP has

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To what e:: tent is nental ' L'.ne s s ---

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1 3 just says, I'm unhappy, it bothers me, I can't s tand it.

2 j Can you regard that as purely a mental problem, psychological 4

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4 biR. BIC.TdIT:

I_ guess all mental illness is to some 5-degree physical, therefore, if you.tay that any mental illness i

f 6 j that results in any kind of physical reac tion is thereby I. covered, vou have completelv. rulled the run out from under i

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this proposition.

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COFS1ISSIONER GILIMSKY:

Well, I don '.t know the answer 9

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^8 i"9 Y 10 MR. CRANE:

I think it is the nebulous, and at the area of heart pale.itaticns, as one moves. = rem,

"I ' m unhap.o. v to

, 2 I'm chvsically ill,"

I expect that the Cc r. mission would have 13 It a fair amount of discretion.

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And supposing yca had received 7 o-i tna we can't ornemse regara as

scme xinc or a icw cose, 16

! life threatening, but here is the person.;rith all sorts of 7

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MR. EICKWIT:

Physical effects from the low-dose?

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COBS 1ISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, you know, doctors may 20 say that it is because he is upset.

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i fact that he has been physically exposed, but no cne would say

.3 that there was any physical response cauled by the dose, I would

• *n say that it is within the reach of Our propcs iticn.

If anycna

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I 1 j certainly outside of the reach of the prcncess.

2 M.R. OSTRACH:

Is it f air to say' that the Cor-i ssion 1

3 l has a reasonable range of discretion in d.eciding how it would I

4 l use the term, " protection", 'that public health and safety I

i 5J should be interpreted in this context, and that if the l

6 j Commission wishes to, it can not unreasonably determine that I

h, at least c.hv.sical sv.=. toms, even those relating 'sclelv. to

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i nental consideration of the hacards of radiiation, do fall into 8

the encompass of the statutcrv te m?

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I gu'e'ss there is so-te - discEetion, b'It

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i I don't think the Comnission could have used its discretion 4I to decide that thermol pollution was in the reach of public 2

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gi MR. CSTRACH:

The case that Co-4 ssioner Bradford 7

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!!!! ated, Seabrook cransmission lines, the Ccamnission used its n

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And was it functioning because of

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It was functioning under the Atomic on

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MR. SICK'CT :

I thought :'I'PA did no t change

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Is that right?

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MR. OSTRACH:

Yes.

.i MR. BICKWIT: So I would be inclined to say that it is 4

the second part of this paper, where the. case is considerably l stronger, that mental health effects can be taken into account, 5'

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1 that part being the effects of NEPA upon this particular i

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" crocosition.

p-8 MR. CRA!E :

On the other hand, a point that didn't nl 9

I,, find its way into the c. ac. er, but vou had raised before, which g

n 10 jjis that courts have been giving greater and greater respect to il 11

, mental healch effects as part and parcel of health effects 4

t l4,, generally, 12 in allowing recovery in civil cases for injuries to 13

'l= ental health, in requiring prisons and state hospitals to I

14 l remedy mental deficiencies or emotional problems, as well as 4, physical.

15 16 FR. EICKWIT: We are by no means firm on this conclusic.-

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!ias I said.

I just said, to the exten 1 that we can feel i

13 ji com:ortacle with any conclusion, we would be more confortable

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!jwith the conclusion that public health and safety doesn ' t reach e

l these questions.

20 COMMISSIO:ER GILIKSK'I:

I'm just trying to near in

.! on exactly what yet. are saying.

Is it a. overstatement of your

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Yes.

I think tha

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8 COMMISSICNER GILINSFY: What else would you include 1

in it?

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n 3 g MR. BICKWIT: Just anything, an-f physical manifestation u

I that could be traced to the actual, physi' cal exposure to 4

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s-6 l getting in the way.

7 MR. BICKWIT: If it is the resul-t of fear of that

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Then,it doesn't get to it.

It doesn' t get

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s l}some kind cf physical manifestation,.then we would sav, certaini.

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3o MR. OSTRACH: But vou mean only. things that would happen 3

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s to guinea pigs.

Thihgs witheut a brain, ri~ht?

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i i.i I mean, a person could argue that mv. stcmach ulcer q

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was causec cy One.raclarion,

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,dav.s and da'es, and =v God, there 's my sternach ulcer.

7 CCMMISSIONER GI',INSFY: Well, thci t ' s w ' '- I was thinking 1 r*O p

MR. OSTRACH: That falls outside of your definit!.on?

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Tha-t is stricke..

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c CCMMISSICNER KENNEDY: N o,,

it is not true, because n

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all of those other similar animals with brains who didn' t ge:

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So ycu can't c ay, simply the real

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What if you had a majority

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a of the population -- this may be getting a little academic here, e

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but --- -

5 COMMISSIOtr5R BRA.DFORD: Well, no. That's the more I

it, but 6

important point, really.

I don' t know how you divide 1

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if just one person ec=es in with vast sy=ptoms resulting from t

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Three Mile Island, that is a ver.y different case than if it 9

4 can be shown that scmehow these vast symptcms are problems

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.lthroughoutthearea.

So I do think that the quantity makes l

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the difference.

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1 12 CO!OiISSIONER GILINSKY:

I expect that someone is I

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going to be making all of these cases, and one way o_r another 14 we are going to have to face the question and decice what f

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i section of the thing.

r MR. SICKWIT:

Under NEPA, the threshold question 18 we wanted to reach was:

"Is NEPA applicable to thm.s situation,

,.9 and would there be a requirement for a NEPA statement for an

,~0 ii environmental assessment?"

.,1 Then we had intended, after making that determination, to move en to the c.uestion of whether v.ou sa.c cuch an assessment of mental.llness would be considered in -he balance.

.v. =3 We fou" " whether or

.ct mental illness is ccanizable under s

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': NEPl> might have an ef fect en whether NEPA was applicable at all.

2 In other words, if it were determined that mental il 3

{*i illness was cogni::able and that there was rather extensive li 4

l = ental illness caused as the result o - '+ 4 s situation, that might 5'

influence the determination that some kind. of NEPA document was 6

. called for.

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So these questions are inter-related.

On isolating n

8 I the cuestion of whether mental illness is cognizable under l

9' NEPA, we came to the. conclusion that the courEs are split, with a

10 j2 slight prependerance in favor of it not bef_ng cognizable.

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'"he questions that would have to be addressed in this i

12 d particular area of consideration would be whether thev are 1

n lll cogni::able, and if so, how should the impacts be considered.

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14 fi Should thev be censidered as health impact.s or social impacts.

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15 fIftheyarehealthimpacts, they may justify the preparation of j

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,3 an impact statement even if there are no 'cther physical impacts If they are social impactsr ' hey rz.y have to ride on b,

involved.

17 ig llthe backs of scme other physical impact.

Even if they are l-h health incacts, then that would not be disposi.tive en the 3~9 u

il' issue of whether the NEPA document was required, because you O

l.

.U,already had a NEPA document in the case of _he is suance of

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definitely maybe.

o CCICiISSIONER 72:7NEDY:

The cues nion that is stated

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3

here is

"Does the Cor=nission have an ab. ligation to ex' ine?"

E, A

d J

MR. BICDiIT:

Yes. And the answer to that is, "maybe".

^*

ji; S'

COf0iISSIONER KENNEDY:

Maybe.

6 :

CC.EISSIONER BRADFORD:

Supposi:ng the question were:

a 7

}"DoestheCc=missionhave the pcwer to, if it feels it necessary?

B 4 o, u.a d : o-e.;on.

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9 MR.3ICKWIT:

My guess is that th e answer would be 10

i dif ferent, but as a matter of fact, if the.t Com:nis sion chose to o

11 exercise the discretion i". order to do thn.t, it would not be o

l':!

12 il stoored in court.

s.'ti, 13 CO.T4ISSIONER 3RADFO2D:

No injun; tion would issue?

14 fi MR. BICDiIT :

No, I don ' t ---

15 COMMISSIONER ERADFORD:

Cn the c-ther hand, if we

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, resume Operation and based the decisisn in. some measure on t

'l this set of considerations, I uess I woul.d expect to see that 9

_o 9

] appealed.

I don't know what a court would. do with it.

1 i

!i 20 ll MR. BICKWIT:

I mean, I don't thc. ink the Cc=:nission has the discretion to just take anything into account it wants to, 21

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pi CO?O1ISSIONER 3RAOFORD:

In this P.rea?

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o 1.

4.

MR. BICKNIT:

Yes.

d,!

3 p

Now, the third quest. ion:

"Whether psychological 1

1 4

[ ef fects are part cf the Cornission's responsibility -- whether I

El that question should be certified to the Conmission before it i

i 6

is raised before the Board?"

e h.,

My feeling was that we did not see any need to direct 7

!l that at c

8 l

this time, that we thought the best way to preserve 9

h cptions for the Commission was not to scecify that, but to a

f 10 dhaveourofficerorwhatever, monitor the proceeding below and I

ij,Iwe came to the conclusion that en the basis of that croc 2edinc_

11 q

l 12 i that we wanted to certify, that we would advise you.

I 13 l

COM'CSSICNER BRADFORD : Well, let's see.

The one i

14 l thing I think we would clearly want to avoid would be getting i

15 j to the end of this proceeding with the Board having executed il 16 this ---

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7 I

COMMISSIONER BIG.0F0F0 :

-- and then havine the

-18 i

l 9

Cc= mission decide that it should have been included and 20 l reversing it.

I would think whether we require the question Pj to be certified to us or whether we reviewed the Board

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i4 :.ects:.cn on an interlocutor';.cas:.s, :.n tn.e r n'.ew was to t'

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r MR. BICKWIT:

Yes.

In fact, I would be inclined to ji 1

But I think

- What I ant saying is tha t it

1. agree with that.

2 w uld be useful to anybody's determination on this question, to 3

il i look at these briefs and I think the best way to proceed is to 4

i have us leck at them and advise y.u on whether we tnin'< it is right to decide them.

e i i

-. l CHAI?M N HENDRII: There will come a ti=e when i

eanp contentions of parties in a proceeding cet enunciated, and 8

. I take it then that-vcur reccmmendation -is that we have yeu -

9 l:

irj; keep track Of how those are being t.reated, and that's the 10 qi.

i appropriate place to dea with them here.

.UA l1 MR. BIC:~4IT :

That's right.

I 9.in%. the Comrtission 1,.

1 staf f should keep track of that prcc 'eding on all fronts, but 13 I,

I on this One in particular.

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p CCMMISSICNIR 3RADFO?O: The Commission's staff?

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Scw, if the Commission decides this is an issue

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ei p for consideration in the hear:.ng, can it add a fourth member t

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!!to the Board.

In our view ---

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c 1 0 sav.ing, "Bov, oh be2, if I were you I would take a reallv close I^

2 : look at the legislative history before saying anything q-.ite 4

ii fthat firm, to see whether there is an intent to exclude larger 3

f 4

boards."

l 5' I MR. BICKWIT:

And we haven't looked at that, but the 6

statute looks pretty plain on its face, and if we~have to ---

7 COMMISSIO:ER KE:mEDY:

Precisely, what are its words?

e 4

8 MR. BICKWIT: "The Commission i_s authori::ed to 1

9

', establish one or more cet=cn safety and licensing boards,

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!, each comorised of three members."

l 71 CCMMISSIO:ER BRADFORD:

It is hard to i:nagine a 1

l j his cory of that phrase ---

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'fd Finallv., could the Cornission or a Board relv on Ao

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impacts are among the issues to be considered. Legally, we see O

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1 would do or OPE would do, we see no legal problem.

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CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:

But you do point out that there n

4 is a certain amount or d:fficultv. in c.ettinc consultants to p

l 4

cbserve these limitations, and there is a tendency, inevitably 5'

that the censultant sits down with the Board in cha=bers, and-6 consultants will inevitably base their recommendation and h

,; dir cussion, not only on what they heard in the hearing, but t-N ca their professienal kncwledge and so cn, than you get the 3

ht '

9

~ Costle problem ---

nh

't 10 l

MR. BICKWIT:

And it is a fine line.

Obviously they I,.t

.Il 11

.i I read in my course or I assigned irt my course the

!. can't say, 12 f follcuing treatise which says thus and such, even though "rour.

i!

13 0 record doesn't say that.

That is clear they car.' t say that, n,

.] but when they start to think in these terms without saying it, 14 n

15 then it is not cuite too clear where the line is drawn.

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Cou-ts do cite predects. tan 13 C u,c,, b-S,.Os. :n z.

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h frca tine to ti.e outside of the lega2. field ---

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13 j

MR. SICKWIT:

Cutside of the legal field?

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whether thev are in the record or not ---

,n 1.

MR. EICKWIT:

Yes, :.

seems tc ne that if they are l

not in the' record, there is'a proble

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t MR. CF.C :

You can take judic al notice of it.

^

w 1.

l MR. OSTRACH:

There are tJo coi.nts that ac..c l'/.

3 One, the Castle decision was, i.n a sense a very i

4 unfortunate one.

It was largely reflected, the. c our t ' s S'

dissatisfaction with what they felt to be very unusual 6 l procedures,the EPA had emplov.ed in creati.ng this panel and

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8 The court was obviousiv. verv in-terested. in scrutinizinc l

9 i: EPA's c.rccedures very carefullv.

n, 70 9

The second f actor to keep in mir'.d is tha.t to the i

i, t

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.'.1 extent to which an agencv can succlement he record, depends in a

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13 lj agency's specialty.

I don't think that a court would bat an l1 eve if the Cctmission sa:.d such and such a radiation level is i

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The psychological matters on the other hand, I t: ink 70

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.icourts try and focus en what is usefully prctected in an 2

,evidentuary proceeding.

The obvio*.s f acts,like who struck 3

ll John, are well presented evidence.

Technical f acts within a

! the expertise of the agency aren't.

A technical fact that 4

l 5-isn't within the expertise of the agency, a court would.probably 1

4 6

say, there f' ore, it belongs in 'the hearing.

i COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

How about an opinion?

L.

e f

10 MR. CSTRACH:

An expert opinion?

That's cross 8

examination.

9 1l MR. CRANE:

I'n not sure that I agree with S teve 's

' O i distinctions.

17 j

What happened in the Costle, a: ong other things,

1, dwas that the censultants locked at the studies of fin fi'sh 13

'l ul and caid, well, granted, there is *not much in the record on 14 i

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ahcut the scientific literature as witnesses in the hearine,

.' 7 4 you are free to do it, but vou can't talk.about it as deciders fl 4

le w

. here.

9 J.,

h MR. OSTRACH-I was there.

I really think that if

7. O 4 the court hadn't sc.ent the entire cral arcument s a. vin g,

"Da vcu.mean they just met f or three days over a weekend and you

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MR. CPRTE :

My kncwledge is necessarily limited to t

,..j what they said on their decision in the c'ese.,

't 5' I

~

MR. BICRWIT: Well, in any event, you can have the i

consultants, and if there is any doubt you can siEply take 6

l' 7

!testimon't from h.

- 8 l CHAIRMAN HE::DRTE: But it sounds as though' consultants nn n

[ would be more -- that it would be a cleaner proposition,

i 10 ll rather than suggesting or assigning to the Board a consultant I-ei

11. d who would sort cf sit en their side of the table and withdraw 1.

12 ii with them to private discussion of matters," hat the inputs oll 13

!! frc= the censultant would be availalile in the hearing

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3 17 MR. BIC'OJIT : Ycs, the 3 card can.

n 1 e.

MR. OSTRACH:

In fact, that was one of the procedures I

n 9

? the court sucgested in the Cost 19 on remand,be done.

.i fl CEAIPJ1A'I HZ !DRIE :

That way it is there on the 20 h

record and people ge'. a crack at it.

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COMMISSIONER GILI::37Y: Back there in some of your 2

earlier discussion this point may have been made before, but 3

. isn't esthetics a matter of esv.cholo9y?

You have to include the 4

i estnetics.

i 5'

MR. CRA13I.

Well, that's what Leventhal says.

He f says sone things of esthetics are so amorphous th$t, 6

like

psychological considerations,they are not quantifiable, and e

d 8

!! they can t play a role in the NEPA process.

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b.i 9

MR. OST?ACH:

You say they can' t play a role or d

10

!! it is not the both of them -- NEPA sav. s they can" t measure the

,. I, 11 role in the process.

Il 12

'l MR. CRANE:

Well, that they do not play a. ;.e in s

t 13 making the determination of whether a ---

o 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What page is that cuote from?

a 15 Nct readily translatable and all that?

16 MR. CRA';E :

Yes.

g MR. CSTRACH:

As the Cc=aissioner is pci. ting cut, tio g ; "- t. --, a n s +- *

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The staff has recommended denying the CP for that F

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MR. BICKUIT:

Posing a fact, seems -to me, a little

^

f'I

i bit stronger in the case of esthetics.

3 i

We say that scmething

-- When we say that something 4

is beautiful or ugly, we are generally saying that everybody 5'

perceives it that way.

6 COMMISSIONER GI'INSKY:

Well, is it the "everybodv" 7

! here that's important?

In other words, that we accept esthetics L

8 li where those oeocle think thit *pe distinction b'etween beautiful..

y l

9 i and uclv. is reasonably clear?

Would we then accept psychological 10

]factorsthat involve similar sorts of districution of ---

I' 11 i

MR. BICKWI"':

I think that would be a fac Or.

The I

12

.? case is obvicusly never that cuestion Dreciselv, but I think p

il 13 that would be a factor.

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You. cut up what everv. body a<vrees is a beautiful 1*

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7 yi Ycu emit radiation and everyone says that's gc't nothing to do ri". wi th f e ar, because you can stop emitting the' radiation and 3 8 y*u "e

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MR. CPA'!E :

One or the cases, I can't remember which,,

2 talks about the Picasso statue in front o # the Federal Building E in Chica9o, savin 9 if we get into considering the esthetics, i

[ then we have got to argue' between those who say i$ is an 5' I eyesore and those who say it is great art..

I i

g I

CCMMISSIONER BPADFORD :

There wi.ll certainly be u.,those who wculd say that the" were adversel.y impacted b.v. their, 2

8 N at least electric bd.lls and others yill sc y that.

(inaudible) i I

9 a.

h 10 MR. CPANE:

If one accepts psych.clogical impacts here, h

11

,i then ene :av nave difficultv. dis tinc.uishin:c. the ordinarv.

il 12 ji reactor, especially if 10,000 people ccce.in with a petition

t.

13 Msaying, rationally or irrationally, I will never sleep well

'ft. knowing that there is a nuclear c.lant in ::r.v. area.

14 CC:01ISSIONER BRADFORD:

I think. clearly whatever 15 a r.'.' v a' '. ' c.-.4. o .a - c '.e. e s.

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a CC:OiISS IONER GI" INSKY :

I would "oe very surprised

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!! if this isn't raised in this case, and als:c, that if it came p

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violance ---

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.

In the. area of Three Mile

.i Island?

3 n.

O COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Does this allege a corollation t

I between the rate of dose and the number of beatings or what?

5 i

I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

..Well, you have seen ' the 6 i I. petition, I would have guessed it would be discussed rather 7

Iy than the actual doses discussed 8 j CO.VMISSIONER KENNEDY: Was there any measu.reme'nt of 9

1j 'he stress following the Susquehanna flOcdc?

10 e

.i ii MR. CRANE:

If so, it was not described in this 77 ih o

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COMM'SSICNER BRADF6Pn Well', just to get us back

.1 13

. irsto this sort of fetur subject, there is, I suppose literature

. i, d., cf disaste rs and rec.cle 's response to the:n, and how they l' adjusted gc.:.ng back and living in a flecd zone area af terwards,

2

,-o and I'.m sure sc=ebod; somewhere has done some research on that.

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tl

i MR,

.E CKWI"' :

I guess one of the factors that gets

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J staff reconnending ---

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MR. OSTRACE:

I think it is called Haven or New i.

t 5 *

..r.aven.

6 COMMISSICNER BRADFORD: Okay.

Tcu are s'aying again, b -he plant is no more ugly or less safe there than anywhere 7

o 1

8 h else.

4 9

U MR. BICKWIT:

What is rational or what is not

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^4 h,rationalbehavior.

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CHAIR.G.N HENDRIE:

No. Peter, there was a distinction

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there,.because the case was made very strongly as. part of tha?.

12 i

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] esthetic impact determinarien that the area was one of histo:ic s

14 1 importance frcr an esthetic standpoint.

Much citation of i

15 Washington Irving and other great authorities dcwn the line,

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d MR. BICKWIT:

We are talking about irrational peers.

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CotoiIssIONER BRADFORD: Well, not everybeciy, because

,i 8 ]n you have sone-sense of the cc=u:'ity.

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MR. BICKWIT:

'iere, you are talking about, "is the d

10 0 plant safe here or is it safe here."

Those in the know recognize n

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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Yes, but as Vic s aid at the

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ji MR. BICKWIT: Well, where this leads, for purposes 0

j of your selection process is that we can't give you a firm i

~

5' answer, and my guess is -- We can give you a _,irmer answer 6

i af ter some time, but my guess is that even df

.r a good '.eal tl I

y of time we would ---

8' CGMMISSICNER 3 RAD'#0RD:

Y e s..

You have'said that 9

. there are ways other than incorporating the expertise on the

i..l 10 0 Board itself.

l 11 3;

CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:

I thin.% that's a critical point.

l i,

l 12' N,'

GOMMISSIONER-GILINSRY : *3v. ' the. wav i c>ne of. the c. laces p

13 nhat -- there is a sect of Millarites (phonetic) who. are

.i 14

,i, succ. ose dlv waiting the end of the world, =cstly in New York 15 State, one of the places most of them waited for the end of 16 che world was on the island next to Three Mile Island.

17 q

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Well, they just go the timing

'l:i 13

wrong.

9

'i Well, let me try the folicwing line of thought on o

il

'O

!lvou.

It does.seem to me that should these questions eventually h*

come into the proceeding in an active way, there are apprcpriate wavs to help the Scard with professional expertise in the e

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.J psychologist or *'he applicant producing a psycholCgiS;, er the client-partV O!Cducinc a DsVCholOcist, but ra ther ---

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1 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

All of those things will 7

. o. robabl.v hac_cen.

Il 3 jl CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:

They will a '1 happen, but in li

't

! addition, the Board can seek its own consultants who would act t,

~

5-as -- What would their status be?

Frierids of the Board or - -

6 1,

MR. BICKWIT: They re"ld -be cons ultants.to the Board.

l4 CEAIRMAN EENDRIE: And would sir::oly, rather than going

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H into the back roc =,, which sounds,li_ke a way that would lead 8

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1 *o some challenge on the procedure, just say what they had to a

s.

.a na stav ' n ocen ses sion.

10 el MR. BICKWIT:

That has been a p-actice that the l

_T _1

.s F. boards,have used.

They have used that ppetice without having 13

! used the behind-the-doors practice.

i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Yes. So it is a way of providi'.g

• 4 d:g

' the Boards with professional expert _se anci views, that is, q

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proceeding.

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i, l'

.i It does seem to me that there is so much in the

_3.,o q;. proceeding which deals with more normal rcaactor safety 1~9 u

.;j licening, et cetera, type of issues, tha t. it would be -- I think 20

!! it would be a little unfortunate to replace cne of the custenary Boa,rd expertise areas and an experienced 3 card <n.e=ber,

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and out a e. sv. cholcc.is t in i.ust to cover t_his po s s ibility,

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4 I will doin that.

If we went that wav., I would croc. ose that I

D..

l I consult with him when he ccmes back this af ternoon, and that i

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it n'ot be a final decision until I confi: m that he, indeed, I!

". would agree with it.

If ycu were inclined to go that way, t

8 d why I think we could take that.---

'ln 9

4 COMMISSIONER BRADE'ORD: Which of the issues that we a

h have he ard this morning that 'omeone of.I background 10 It 11

! have -- this is really apart from what we have been discussinc I

12 l,

0 f airly rapidly say have already been c?nsidered and evaluated 3 ,g.- v. w".> , o-a 3 A : : :, ---1,. 4 ...e w, -,coe4: e.,1 w m 4 +w v A n - .e p a -.. n.a o A ~~.. '.\\ o. .o ~ a c. - ;.-.. m...,~.u,..:, -n ,ase c.... ~.~,-c-- ,, J ,1--o2. ... 'oA c,... A --4 a

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,3 w m _ ~a _... -.. c.: L. -., r - n 2 s. going to happen to the cows in normal operatien. h e only . O,. "* j / L a f p 31 7 i additional areas would be either class 9 accidents or ~ 2

J accidents such as the one at TIM Two, if it isn' t considered 1

N a Class 9. I think those would be previously discussed. I 4 j MR. BICKWIT: How about radiation =cnit5 ring? I 5' ! ~ MR. OSTRACH: That's not exactly environmental. ' r i 6 COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY: It seems to me the i r

business about the Susquehanna, that really deals with 'n1I 2, p

mo doesn't it? 9 MR. OSTRACH: Yes. i! 10 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Would that be included, I il 11 it would think not. n p 12 CHAIRMAN HENDRI.E: Well, I would be surc.rised if v.u.. s 13 l1 don' t have a series of contentions presented along that line.- 14 d CCMMISSICNER GILINSKY: Yes, but how would they relate l 15 to TMI One?

I 16 CHAIEMAN HENDRIE:

I would exoect them to be made a -4d ~ 'A

• c -in + " e # ac

• Ma * +-" e-a w a o-2-

e a"- '1 "- "' ~ C r 1 o 7 i 3 .v well, there is =cre likelv. to be one at TMI One,.and ,e

sav, t

S j then we will have the stuff in the water, and that's bad news. n il Wouldn't you think? I'm spec"lating. ,0 ,t COMMISSIONER GILINSKY : I guess I don't see any -- Ycc know, when you talk abou: the S23quehanna, ! was just i g .'e n-o_ - c.;.. ;. " ~v " c '.. o '.. *. 6,., w..,. 4.m. - 0: w4-a.- v-n_ a o-w ~ y , a y ....o v m.. 4.s = w g.'..'.., 3 1 m v. ?. m.,% n, 3., - -., a. p.. wb.. n. k. 4.. ; 3 i 3 t . b. 4,.. c j w.... v .4w v.. w. 4. 3 -a J w. a .f _b g 6

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.Ee. a.e ,w. .m.4_. m g4 m 4.,. 4m a v 4D y ', ( y (- ~! )' O .,p 3, 1 T sufficiently,and so to the extent there will be a certain 1 2 imount of argument about this, it will be over whether they 3 0 are separated, not whether the TMI Two water is going into u htheSusquehannaandwhat che effect of that is. S-It may be that one wants a little more strength on 6 l this safety side, because, as you-say,' the staf f -- Well, t N those are the basic issues and the ones that e i,. they have there y 8 l that go beyond what w.e have had with the other B&W raactors a g y are the emergency plan-ing, the issues relating to managecent I l and this is a secaration. I guess I would have to go with 10 i ySteve. As far as the monitoring, I thin'c the safety will deal .1 Iwith..that. - t h,g ' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You' may be right, Vic.~ I-just 1 e.U thought that in establishing-a Board which did not include 14 1 I,: an identified environ.m. ental member might have sort of a .a .t . better aspect to it here. .o CO.vMI3SIONER GILINSKY: But we are not granting the 17 !! license in the first instance wh 2n you are reviewing t'te 18 i-environ. ental stat? lent and eve ything e'.se. Since the issues 19 0.t are primarily safety issues, when it gets right dcwn to it -- 20 1 b .rw w4,. .,a. s 4 u... Cv.m_ LT S r ehvrp ... s a.4.r.D v.. v. .. m .s s _v F .n CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -, you knew, ' cur adols cent .~ n L learned reccamendations had been innlerenred, you know, .,,a et cetera, et cetera. m, w..... _c. m.. r e..

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..,a. r. _.. a c- -r. 3 _., 2., _ e - i,, o. v.. s v _4 n. e _7.. .._4c.2..,_'_4 _4.. ~ %. c 4 b._4 ~, -c__,.., _4.- _._3 m,, +. n.. s.. C.J m n. swe 'i ,T Q >i i 33 1 1 y a contested OL hearing and it is not. A.ll those issues are ~ 2 , essentir.lly behind us, and only if c. c.ould prove that somethin a si now in resoect to TMI One is drastically dif#erent than 3 n rfitwasintheOLhe1 ring, then the quest:i.ons doesn' t arise. 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: We may end up with some kind g = cf separate TMI Two proceeding, but it dc2esn' t so.und to me 1l like these issues are going to be cc=ing into the TMI Cne 7... 1; procdeding. r 8 ij CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's pr:cbably right. 9 e !i CHAIRMAN EENDRIE : Well, one thi ng which we could do is dll I could give Bob a call and see who he th: inks he has got on 10 11 pd the Panel who is p.vaildale and seems par :icularl*v. strong on - I To

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n, n 4.. m - -u; ow 6v -m..- -rs 5. d ." a.., u '/ I A g P ' ).' n e 's me ask. Peter, what do v.ou think? Wouldi you think that a 2 bet.ter configuration of the Board taan the present one? 3 , It does mean going away and not having a Eioard on which the re 4 1 is an identifiable so-called environmental member, because 5-the Panel Members are identified in these general categories. i It seems to me, at first glance at least, that perhaps it was 6 a1 not desirable to give the appearance in naming the Boarci that 7 - , we were sort of turning aside frca that whole area of con. sider-g i U ation in the proceeding, but the ocint v.cu raise is a val _id 9 a one in the Board frca the standocint of dealing with the T O J kinds of things that staff has listed. 'Ihe i'ssues that 9 presumably all of which or most of which will be identified, q P and the Board could be a stronger one with ~ the replacement of 133

the envircnmental merter -- a panel member who has a fairlv 4

strong background in cperations and safety-related manage =ent. ,_an e n us. - e e - e,-, ,u u_ _ cu_ v_ u_,. ,_ e_.,._ m_ u_ n -. - - v. v.. m.s -vw. i_ -.. c.:. c -s Ao with that background, I would be tentative.f inclined to go

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that way. I know nothing about - and. have nothinc. a ainst e 13 7 but I ust have a little difficultv. neshinc ' background a ,9 ~ ,; with what I think is c.oine to come up at t.he heari.3 .0 s CHAIR'GN HENDRIE : Well, why don' n I call -- 4.. C u^."i. i. S S ' ^".4 R vr.". ".4 "s _ cob.has.. r. r v w ~, CHAIRMAN HENORIE: Is it fair to judge, either becaus: --a i, m it hasn't come up yet, thatr . as Chain.an and) fseer w .3,. gcod ne:-lers for this Ecard? n-CCsp,e m S S m-c.or o.- . r o.v... A,.

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I ilr 3a l. 1 CHAIRMA'i HENDRIE : Okav, then let me talk to Ecb and. )* .e s. d see what he can get us in the way of an operata..cn3 -- Because 3 l 4 I i' S.,' j -- 6 COFSi!SSIONER BRADFORD: (inaudible) 7' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. 8 COFSIISSIONER KENNEDY: Okay. 9 CHAIM1AN HENDRIE: Very good. l. 10 Il. MR. BICRWIT: I would like to raise another issue. Il 11 as s.oon as vou tu.rn this machine off. 12'1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: A scheduling issue? I 13 j MR. BICRWIT: Yes. ll li 14 u CFAIM1A'i HENDRII: I'll ask for a ' rote to withhold b I. :. 15 ll the tape under Exemption 6 and 10. I t. b 16 CCSS1ISSIONER BRADFORD: Aye. 1: 17 !j CCSS1ISSIONER KEN'.iEDY : Aye. I i COSSiISSIONER GILINSKY: Aye. 18 i, l' 9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So ordered. i 1 20 (Whereupon the meeting was adj-mrned at 12:40 p.m.) i. 1 + _U a I e e 4 l; I: 4J e P .R.% 0 i %P eb ) P = , ;r f s.