ML19224D829

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Transcript of 790629 Public Meeting in Washington,Dc Re Order on TMI-1.Pp 1-17
ML19224D829
Person / Time
Site: Crane 
Issue date: 06/29/1979
From: Bradford P, Gilinsky V, Hendrie J
NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7907170093
Download: ML19224D829 (18)
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NUCLE AR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:

PUBLIC MEETING ORDER RE TMI-l Place - Washington, D.

C.

Date -

Friday, 29 June 1979 Pages 1-17 i.e.enen :

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2 i l l hh yd-1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ~ 2, NUCLEAR REGULA"'ORY COMMISSION 3 4 PUBLIC MEETING 5 ORDER RE TMI-l 6 7 3' 9' Rc'em 1130 1717 H Street, N. W. 10 Washington, D. C. I1 Friday, 29 June 19 79 12 The Ccemission met, pursuant to notice, at 12:36 p.m. 13 3EFOP2 : 1.1 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 15 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissicner 16 PETER A. 3RACFORD, Commissioner 17 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Cc=missioner la ALSO PRESENT: 19 Messrs. Sickwit, Kenneke, Crane, Ostrach, and Hoyle. 20 21 22, t 23 ' 24 ' 3+E?def 31 A tOQ r*Tr1, I SC. 353 060 25

CR 5744 4164 WHITL/pv 3 i l _? _R _0 C _E _E _D _I N G _S 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don't we go ahead, if we may . 3 come to order. 4, The first item of business is that I would ask my 5 colleagues to join me in voting to hold upon short notice a meet-6 ing to discuss an order in the Three Mile Island Unit 1 case. 7 Those in favor. 3 (Chorus of ayes. ) 9 CHAIP'4AN HENDRIE: So ordered. 10 We have issued for all of the operating Babcock & 11 Wilccx reactor units orders prepared by the staff, acted upon by 12 the Cc= mission, defining their conditions of shutdown and things 13 they must do to qualidy for coming back on line. This is true il in every case except Three Mile Island Units 1 and 2. The 15 inten: has been all along to issue such an order in the case 16 of Unit 1. I suppose, as a formality, we could in the case of 17 Unit 2, but there is not much question abcut its situation, and 18 I think the interest is not in Unit 2, the damaged unit, but in 19 L.,. 4., I 20 ' The recc=mendation before the Ecuse is that, rather 21 i than wait further in order to have a rather detailed order in I 22 the case of Unit 1, that since some time has gone on and since 23 ' there may be some ancertainty in the cc== unity over the Ccm-24 mission's intention with regard to Unit 1, that it might he well. 3 I?defst A fDortert, !FC. 25 for us to issue a short order simply confirming the shutdown 353 061

pV4 i l 4 s 1 I i l' condition of the plant and saying it will remain shut down until i further order of the Commission, or scme such language. 4 So, that is the reason and the reason for the subject 4 of the discussion here. I c If I understand you correctly, Len, you are not quite 6 satisfied with the particular langauge of the order in hand at the accent, and althcugh I see members of your staff -- I see 3 members of your staff advancing upon us with a paper in hand. 9 It is possible we may have it. Why don't we see what this is, 10 and I will let you then look at it and explain from here what -- 11 M ".. BICKWIT: I think it would be best if a member of 12 ene c:::ce explained it. I3 Peter, why don' t you take us through it. I# MR. CRANE: I a:1 not sure I can add much to it. It 1 ~5 says: Unit 2 leaves us without reasonable assurance that No. 1 16 can be operated safely. It says it is shut down and will stay l shut down. It says we will issue a further order stating what i I8 the basis of the concerns are. The 20-day period for recuesting-19 a hearing will run frcm that further order, se that people 0 aren'c filing requests in the blind. 4 71 CCMMISSICNER AHEARNE: What did you have in mind when 22 "scecifIing a detailed basis for its concerns"? vtu say 23 ' MR. CRANE: It would recite what the problem areas

  • 4 are that are cur basis for lackina reasonable assurance.

3 F?deral A eoor*ers, Inc.

  • C CHAIMAN HENDRIZ :

And cr.esumably contain che same 353 062

ov3 l 5 i I sorts of requirements as a.cc. roc.riate to TMI-l but, in general, 2l the sorts of requirements that werenin some of the other 3&W 3 c.ders -- fix that, do that. 4'. COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: Although there may be addi-i c tional points for Three Mile Island 1 that weren' t in. 6 CHAISMAN H~NDRII: Just so. 7 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNE: And may not be ccmpletely able-3 to be spelled out in that kind of detail. o My only question, really, I guess, is the " shortly." 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : It is either the " shortly" or "in 11 detail." I guess I would -- I guess I would agree with you. 12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: One or the other. I3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I guess I would prefer to take out: 14 " shortly." Having a scmewhat cynical view of what the term may 15 mean fcr us. 16 ' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would it be correct that, 1 given the frame of the order, that as it stands people can new 18 file, even on this request fcr hearing, or is it that they must 19 wait until the -- this subsequent order? 20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Subsequent order. 21 COMMISSICNER AHEARNE : They must wait? i 22 MR. BICKWIT: That is what this crder says. M wever, 2 "', it could be argued that on the basis of 139 (a) of the Act, they 24 ' are entitled to a hearing. u.en a.oonen. inc. 2 ~* - Our reccmmendation is that vou not issue this crder. r' 7 1J tJ %

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i 6 1 (Laughter.) i MR. BICKWIT: Our recommendation is that we wanted to. I 3' present you with a draft order, but our recccmendation is that 4, you authorize the issuance of an order that this be done in lessi I haste than this particular draft has been done, and that we e 6 present you, having discussed with staf f the various issues 7' involved, and we present you with an order that ycu can issue 3 next week. 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It seems to me such an order i 10 ought to contain.hree elements. One is that it would require 11 the TMI-l facility to remain shut until further order of the 12 Commission. The second would be that the Ccamission wculd com 13, mit to not recc.enina. the facility until a proceedin~ had been - ; v 14 on the terms of a further crder had been ccmpleted. And the 15 third is that the opening of the facility should depend on action 16 by the Commission itself, the Cctmissioners themselves. 17' MR. CRANE: This dces all three. It's shut down IE until further order; if a hearing, that hearing will precede 19 restart, and that is the last sentence -- 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Right. 21 MR. CRANE: -- And keeps the plant shut down. 22, COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: It doesn't say the Ccamission 23 itself. 24 MR. CRANE: It shall remain shut down until further scean:wv aecomn inc. 25 order of the Cc= mission. 353 06/

ev5 n 1 l i l l MR. BICKNIT: That language was used' in aprevious 2' order that we issued, and it was used to mean until further i 3 order of the staff. I think it is appropriately used here. I 4 think it is appropriately used. i 5 CCMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: What case was that? 6 MR. BICKWIT: In the case of the seismic shutdowns. 7: COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you: The orders 3 specifying the Commission for reopening the other B&W plants 9 were issued by the director of NRR; weren't they? 10 MR. SICKNIT: No, they were issued by the Commission. II COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: The order for, say -- i 12 ' CHAIFl!AN HENDRIE: Cconee. 4 N CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Was a Commission order? 4 MR. SICKWIT: Yes. At your request. ,e CHAIFl!AN HENDRIE: At your request. 16 MR. 3ICKNIT: Your particular request was chat the 1,', clant not be restarted without Commission ac.croval. And the I6 Commission did not adopt chu. feature of your request. l9 COMMISSICNER 3RADFCRD: There was the day that we had! 20 the vote to issue an order at all. 'l MR. BICKNIT: Yec. And on that day it was decided 22 that the staff would issue the order at a later time. This 23 office advised the Commission that it might be preferable for ~4 the Commission to issue the order. ACS Eat!tf al 99Cor*tri, ' c. 25 i CCMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: I.t was over mv dead body, 33) 003 l I

f 3 i li obviousiv, that we decided to Note to let the staff issue the 9I order. ~ 3 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: Not that you weren't right. 4 (Laughter.) 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me walk through this: 6. You have the Commission issuing a further order. There has been i 7. a hearing on that order, and where is the Commission action? 3 I mean, is that the Commission action v.ou are sc.eakinc_ of, the 9 approval of that initial order? I would have it the other 10 way around. II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's not what it says. 12; COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: I may be still reading it 13 wrong then. i Id MR. CRANE: It says: shall remain shut down until Ic further order of the Conmmissio.. I0 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: Yes. And then there is an I7 order that comes along -- I3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : I see what you mean. 19 MR. CRANE: Which will also issue an order. 20 COMMISSICNER GILINSK"- It wouldn't disturb me to

  • 41 have that initial order issued by the staff, so long as there

,2 is a proceeding and the Conmission .a s the final word in any 2 23 case. If all of the previous ones were issued by the Commission,. n '< ther. I suppose it would be appropriate to have this one issued ..:.-,c er a.oor n. inc. ^5 3 06fa by the Ce. mission, as well. i

yv i 4 9 1, COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: Len or Peter, why can't you 2' go as far as you have, "shall remain shut down until furtrer 3 order of the Cc= mission," drop out the next two sentences, pick i 4 up "t e Commission has found that the public health and safety" -- 5 MR. BICKWIT: I lost you. I 6 COMMISSICNER AREARNE: I am saying, go up until 7 " Accordingly, we direct Unit 1 facility presently to shut down, 3 shall remain shut dcwn until further crder of the Commission," 9 and strike the next two sentences and go on to say, "The Com-l 10 missio n has found that the public health and safety require, 11 effective immediately," and "any recuests shall not stay the 12 immediate eff ectiveness," and then strike the next sentence, and; 13 say, "The Commission will hold a proceeding prior to restart, I b and restart will not be authoriced without action by the Ccm-15 mission." 16 CCMMISSICNER GILINSKY: That seems to capture the 17 thought. I I3 MR. SICKWIT: You can do that. The concern is that 19 you give no guidance as to what the hearinga would ;e on. 20 CCMMISSICNER AHEARNE: We're not sure yet. 2I MR. 3ICKWIT: I understand. 22 CCMMISSICNER 3RADFORD: That is the basis of your M recc=mendation that we not issue this one at all, just tempo-24 rarily authorice it, which, .uust say -- 3.s.c.ro a.cern,. inc. 25 ou make clear your intent that an t, MR. SICKWT*- v 1 I 3J3 O/ r, i~

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1 1>! crder is to be issued that vou resolve -- ycu make clear yotr 2, intent to resolve what the proceeding is to enccmpass and that 3 the order be issued at the time that you resolv,e those questions. 4, CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE : We could go on to say that 5 after we sav the Commission will hold a proceeding prior to I d i 6' restart and restart will not be authorized without action by the, 7 Cc= mission, "A specific order will cutline in detail what the 3 aspects of that hearing will be." I don't think -- I think we 9 are in a situation where we believe it necessary to explicitly 10 order the plant to stay down, but we do not yet have clearly in 11 mind, and I would expect it wif1 take more than just a week to 12 get clearly in mind what will appropriately be covered in that G 13 hearing. 14 MR. CRANE: Depending on what the subjects of the 15 hearing are. There arv people who may or may not want to inter-- 16

vene, 17,

CCMMISSICNER AF.EARE : I am saying my concern is 18 that we are now many months past when we should have issued the 19 first crler, and if we continue to delay until we are really 20 clear what the proceeding will be, I think that will be several 21 =cre months, and I think it is time for us -- 22 CCMMISSICNER GILINSKY: I am inclined to have a brief: 22 order ' hat just makes chose three points and leave the details I 24 for future occasions. .c 3,cerei a eeemrs. inc. 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I must say I would either propose i [ g/nUDY 7 "r f )

ev9 i 71 I l i 1l to direct the general counsel to prepare such an order for i i 2 approval in the next week or when ready, or go with something 3 like this. i i 4 But let me ask. The provision -- we do need a more f 5 detailed specification of the Commission's basis for concern t O 6 and what it feels needs to be done in defining the scope of the ' 7 issues that might be contested at a hearing requested by an a, interested party. I think simply to go out and say shut down 9 and stay that way, very truly yours, the Commission, doesn't 10 hack it. 11 A question -- and the draf t has the merit that it 12 makes clear that there w 11 be shcrtly or will be without the 13, " shortly" an order specifying the basis for its concerns, noting' 14 that a hearing will be of ered with that order. 15, Cuestion: Can you in fact issue an order like this, 16 which says any rights to a hearing that parties may have or 17, think they have are herewith deferred scmetime short or long 18 into the future when there would be a further order defining 19 things? 20 MR. CRANE: I was going to say, the one way of deal-21 ing with that is to say any persen, the licensee or any persen 22 : whose interest may be affected by this order, may request a i 23 ; hearine. with resc.ect to this order, but the 20-dav.ceriod 24 within which to file shall not begin until the issuance of the amers a.comn. inc. 25 Ccmmission order specifying the reasons for its concerns. r rr 7$ Q,!

I t 12 4 i 1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : The detail. I see. It seemed to 2 me that you were likely to -- you run flat into the statute i l 3 the other way. 4 MR. BICKNIT: Yes. .i I 1 5 CRAIRMAN HINDRII: And you have an _llegal -- I 6 MR. SICKWIT: There are no tine limits in the statute, 7' but there is a right to a hearing on any such order. i 3 CHAIP24AN HENDRII: I would propose to leave that 9 middle paragraph in with that kind of a change, which -- 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If you stri.' e " shortly." l Il CHAIPMA'I dENDRII: And, I guess, strike " shortly." 12 MR. KENNEKE: You can move it down to the end and 13 ! change the emphasis a little bit. 14, COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I want to get in the fact that 15 we will hcid a hearing and that any restart will have to be by 16 action by the Commission, and although this might say it, it i 17. doesn't say it to me. And I would be interested in people like 18 ' me being able to -- I9 MR. BICKWIT: The order by the Ccmmission itself. 'O COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: I am interested in holding a 21 hearing or a proceeding of sc=e kind. 22 ' MR. SICKWIT: Or do you want to cccmi to an oppor-i i 23 tunity for a hearing or hold a hearing? 2d ' COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: There is no question that the 2 3,ce,si necemn, uc. 25 opportunity is offered. zr, p, o i

pvil F i 13 i 1 1, CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: How can you hold a hearing if i 2, nobody comes? 3 CCMMISSIGNER AHEARNE: Hold a proceeding. Oh, I am 4 sure semebcdy would come. 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: We do this with construction i 6 permits. l 7' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I would think, if nobcdy -- which 3 is hard to conceive -- if nobcdy filed any manifestation of 9 interest in a hearing, that we would have, when the staff 10 thought it was ready, have the staff in for a briefing on how 11 their safety evaluation came out, what they thcught about this 12 and that, we would ask questions, it would be a public meeting 13 ' and that would serve the purpose of, you know, letting the Ocm-l 14 mission see it as a collegial group, and ask questions about it 15 and understand it and so on. 16 But to send a board and the staff off to talk to one 17 another in Harrisburg if ncbcdy came, I am no t sure -- it endil 18 doesn't seem to me necessarily very helpful. 30.42 I9 CCMMISSICNER AHEARNE : I think it would be helpful 20 that, even if the board and the staff had to go off to Harris-21 burg and talk, people in Harrisburg are the ones who at least 22 ought to have the opportunity of listening to that discussion 23 even if they aren't 24 COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY: Suppose this order, this l M ETCef 81 StOQf*Sr1, Inc. L 25 second order, were not a Commission order but a staff order. '$ r 'i n~ [o e ' I 1

pv12 i I 14 i i i l' It would then make sense to have a board co ove-it in detail. k) 2;' CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: It would make sense either way. 2 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: And it would then kr.ve the a Commissioners in a position of reviewing the final product. 5 MR. SICKWIT: May I raise one other issue. If the 6 Cc=nission did the order, a request for a hearing on it will ? 7' trigger the ex-parte rule. I think it is a factc to be con-3 sidered. 9 CIMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I don't find myself able to 10 get that much information new. It is not clear that is going 11 te be that much of a constraint. 12 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: If we cure the difficulty with the. 13 statute in the way that Peter suggested, are the e other things ! I la ahcut it that need further contemplation? 15 MR. SICKNITt Nothing that I can think of at chis 16 point. I guess -- 17-CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: That was the concern. la MR. BICKWIT: I think I just have an inveterate 19 distaste about issuing scmething without even consulting people 20 who have been on top of this situation. But I know of no prob-21 lem with the order. 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What do you think about seme-23 thing that explicitly will hold -- that we will hold scme kind 24 of a proceeding? CS Fectf al AtCorters, IFC. 25 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD : That's fine me still.

pv1J 5 1 i, 4 I hold, I think, to the preference to authorize the order now and F 2 just make sure that we are touching bases. But rather than have: t t 4 -- rather than to lock on that today, I would go along with 4 the other forum. I certainly have no difficulty with the 5 specific ccamitment to a proceeding. f i 6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I guess I would prefer to de that,- 7 just so the bases could be touched. I would put it in terms of 3 directing an order be prepared, and I would think the ordernwe 9 are talking about would be one like this which would issue 10 Monday or Tuesday, rather than a detailed one which is inevitably 1 Il going to take several weeks to put together. But that would I2 allow general counsel a chance to check with staff and with the I* offices and make sure that the bases were covered. 4 l# COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: We are agreed, in principle, ,e the basic points are covered in the order. 16 MR. CSTRACH: With the exception of the point tha t 17 Ccemissioner Ahearne -- II CCMMISSICNER GILINSKY: The point of whether it l9 I specifically comnits to a hearing. I regard that as a sub- 'O cption. If there wculd be a hearing, we are all of the opinion 21 that it should be completed before the restart of the facility.

  • 2 CCMMISSICNER AHEARNE:

I don't see any way we can 23 avoid having scme formal session in Harrisburg on that plant 24 prior to restart, whether or not anybcdy has asked for it. It a -, cue n,ocmn. we. ^5 just has to be done. 353 0 3

pvl4 i 16 i lj COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: It is probably academic, in j i 2 that -- 3 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: That's right. 4 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: I can't imagine there not i i 5 being a hearing if we have offered an opportunity for one. I 6 mean, I am perfectly prepared to commit to a hearing. 7; COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I don't mind waiting another a couple of days if that is the general sense of the rest of you, 9 but I was really surprised when I read Peter's memo, that brought 10 to my attention that it hadn' t gone out yet. 11 CCMMISSICNER 3RADFORD: It was the ECCS letter that 12 brought it to our attention. 13 - COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: As long as we would all agree 14 to have it issued next week, that is acceptable to me. 15, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And I spcke with Dick, and I 17, guess he will be back, but he agreed wich the three basic points. la CHAIRMAN HENDRIZ: Fine. 19 All right, we then direct the general counsel to 20 shape this document up for action at the earliest reasonable 21 tine next week. 22 What do you think is likely to be the time? 23, MR. BICKNIT: I wouldn't anticicate any o.rablem cet-24 ' ting it together bv. Mondav..

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25, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE : Monday afterncon. I didn't bring 1 I 4 '7 l /- . ^ l s-

c.-- e i i i 1 i 17 1l my schedule sheet. 2! MR. HOYLE: I know of only a 2:30 meeting, which I i 3 trying to set up with Mr. Gossick. We have reserved time Tuesday 4' afterncon, if you would rather look at Monday, Monday afternoon., i 5! COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: I will be tied up in the 6-later afternoon. 7' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You will be tied up late? 3 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: Late afternoon. 9 MR. HOYLE: How about 1:30? 10 MR. CHILK: That lcoks clear. Il MR. MAGEE: Commissioner Kennedy has an appointment 12 at 1:30, but -- do you want to make that lacer? 13 CHAIP31AN HENDRIE: 2:30 Monday. Id COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: Make sure that general counsel. 15 has checked his bases. i 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So we vote a short-notice meeting 17 and have that done? IS (Chorus of ayes.) 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So ordered. 20 That will give the secretary a chance to notify 21, people and so on. Very good. Thank you very much. 22 (Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the meeting was adjourned. ) end#1&2 23 6 24 ' .c. su:.r.i n ecomn. inc.

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