ML19224D745

Transcript of 790607 Public Meeting in Washington,Dc Re Second Periodic Review of NRC FY79 Operating Budget & Decision Unit Tracking.Pp 1-72.Viewgraphs Encl

ML19224D745
Person / Time
Issue date:	06/07/1979
From:	Ahearne J, Gilinsky V, Hendrie J NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7907160255
Download: ML19224D745 (91)

Text

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NUCLE AR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION f

IN THE MATTER OF:

PUBLIC MEETING SECOND PERIODIC REVIEW OF NRC FY 79 OPERATING BUDGET & DECISION UNIT TRACKING

(

Place -

Washington, D.

C.

Date -

Thursay, June '/, 1979 Pages 1 - 72 T.i.cnor.:

(202)347-3700 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.

[l Q(D OfficialRepor:ers M

. tat North C:::itel Street 790"I160 Wet

.,gten. D.C. 20C01 9,

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NATIONWIDE COVERAGE - D AILY

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DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United Stata.-

in tb.

Nuclear Regulatory Co=ission held en

., w.,. ea e..

,-.,n

,o'o Commissions's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W.,

Washington, D.

C.

The.

meeting was open to public attendance and observation.

This transcrip-has not been reviewed, ccrrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.

The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.

As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.

Expressio ns of op'nion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final deterr.inations or beliefs.

No pleading cr other paper may be

..1 en with the Cc =ission in any proceeding as the result of or adfressed to any statemen: or argument con:nined nerein, except as the Comissicn may authorize.

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2 1 l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA C Ro,, e-t_

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NUCLEAR FIGULATORY COMMISSION I

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PUBLIC MEETING Si l

SECOND PERIODIC PIVIEW OF NRC FY 79 6'

j OPERATING BUDGET & DECISICN UNIT TRACKING 7i sh Rocm 1130 1717 H S treet, N. W.

91 Washington, D.

C.

I 10 '

i June 7, 1979

Thursdav, I

11 !

The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 9:45 a.m.

I 12, 3 EFOPI:

13 [

DR. JCSEPH M. FENDRIE, Chairman il 14 0 VICTOR GILINSEY, Commissioner II.

15 h JOHN F. AHE ARNE, Commissioner i

16 l; ALSO ??ISENT:

i.

17 [l Messrs. Haller, Cooper, Barry, Gossick, Chilk, Bickwir,

,i 18;iDenton, Schroeder, Case, and Levine.

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MINI /pv 3

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_F _R _O _C _E _E _D I N _G _S 2

i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

If the meeting can come to order.

3 How do I sound in the back of the room?

Can you hear 4

me back there, Bob?

I have a throatv feeling this morning that 5

inclines ne toward low volume.

I will keep the microphone in 6, place.

7 We meet thing morning.

The first item has to do with 8llthebudget.

Nominally, it's the second pe.riodic review point i

0' for the '79 cperating budget.

10 However, we have some extraordinary circumstances to 11 deal with, and I think we will be devoting a good deal of our 12 1:ime this morning te looking at reprogramming to accommodate 1

l 13 p the Three Mile Island-related matters that are going on in the l

14

' agency.

But that will come in the framework of the handouts i

15 outline which has been provided to everybody, I guess.

16 see, way con t yot go aneac.

I' 4

17 l

MR. GOSSICK:

A LI right.

" hank you, Mr. Chairman.

l I8 As you indicated, we have got two pieces to our dis-19'icussion this morning.

First, as you indicated, and associated i

20 {; with that, sort of apart from Mr. Cooper's briefing, we are 21

c. rec.ared to discuss the matter of reallocation of some manc.ower 22 resources to address the TMI problems.

23 I have had the BRG icoking at the impacts of such i

It

• d !! actions over the last week or so, and I thinx you may want to

^

R eportert, Inc. f a 8ederal 2 3' hear pers;nally from the people that are directly involved as t:

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1(what those impacts will be.

l 2

The second part of the discussion is a status report 3" on our decision unit tracking system, more commonly referred to i

4 ~as DUTS.

As you know, we have got this 14-element pilot progra.

5 under way for fiscal year

'79, with the hope of having the pre-6 gram all covered in fiscal

'80.

I have been sending down to f

I

- 7. ycu as part of the weekly PAR briefin'y that we have examples i,i 8 't of the decision unit elements that are reflected in the DUT5 9' system.

But we thought wa night take you through an exam le of I

h 10 it one this morning, as well as giving you a general status report i

i, 11 on where we are.

i 12 'p As far as the review of our '79 situation, I w;11 ask il 13 M. 32.rry to give you some introductory re... arks on that before c

I 14 l Mr. Cecper gets into the details.

l Iscie

.en.

m 16 l MR. 3ARRY:

Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, as you have 17 h s uc. c. e s te d, this is. a mid-year review which we would normally 13, accono. lish everv vear, irrespective of TMI.

But, of course, g

f 19 !I this year a major problem was to measure and see what we had to n

I; 20 ! co to accommodate the impact of TMI in order to finish our fina:-

,I il 21 [i cial plan for fiscal year '79.

Anf in a few moments Mr. Cooper h

22 f will articui::e this to you in some detail as to just how we il D

1 23 h have done that.

li e

24 l' I mic_ht s a v. that the bottom line is really that TMI v cer.,n.m n.n ine.lj 4

25 !, fiscal year '79 will crobably cost us about $13 million. About i-a 777 7

1 I

JJJ L;J; a

h

.8 :: well as past years, the obligations patterns for this year as I

i 9l well as last year, the commitment patterns -- that is, when we 1

10 i! have a contract out and :ne other side hasn' t signed that cen--

i il[ tract, it's not an obligation but rather just a commitment.

And we did a detailed analysis on travel, which is the high TMr

3k user these days.

I I

le j Those a e the things that we have normally done in b,

h 15 li financial reviews.

o a

i 16 i What I can tell you we have added to that i you have n

17.' seen recently that we pumped out an operating plan by the Ccm-h a

15 a mission's direction.

And what we did in this financial review n

d 19 is tc ask all che program officers to come in with how this 2C g operating plan would change, what major accomplishments would i

t 21 ;

be reduced or deleted, what major accomplishments would be ll 22 [!

initiated.

Je.d we have tnat in the supporting documents.

l 23 '

Ncw, with regard to TMI, the 3RG has been forced up.

i 2.1 !

We have looked at TMI briefly for

'79, and we plan to look at o

,mFede al Aeoorters, Inc. i,

.i h

23 TMI for 1980.

You may realize that some of the documents woulu o

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have us look at 1980 TMI in the context of looking at the 2

'81 budget.

That's what we plan to do.

So, what I am going to 3

confine my discussion here on TMI on is the '79 requirements.

4 The thing for you to realize there -- and I am sure you do -- is 5l that, as Len said earlier, we have three reprogramming papers.

l

.6' This is going -- the one you're going to see this efternoon is 7i going to be a third of three papers.

I a

B The first one, v_ou may recall, is essentially that

!y C1unobligatedbalancepaperthatwewentdownwith and that, in 10 fact, was approved.

'I

{

The second one is the paper that about a month-plus 12, ago wenn down to Congress.

It had most of the remaining Senate l

13 [ initiatives that we had not satisfied to date, 1&E,

waste 14, management, improved safetv, low radiation, ecidemioloc.ical, et 11 15 il cetera.

That has not been approved, bu we got a friendly let-it i

16 ter from our House Appropr anions Committee tha; ssid we were

I 17 ll not going on e way or another, except we're not going to give e

il 18 'l you approv 1 or disapproval at th.s time until I see what the I

t 19 9 story is on TMI.

I 20 Now, vou may recall, at the last minute we added that 11 b'l 21 paragraph in the second one saying don't be alarmed, we are 22 !, sensing TMI and we will be back with you as shor:1v as we can, i

23 l hopefully in a few weeks.

That's what we're doing today, hope-i i

i 24 fully shaping that third paper to go back to the Congress and, 2-F ec eral A ecortars, Inc.

25 ! hcpefully, when the House Appropriation Committee sees, ah hah, 6

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11 9

1:f Tnvou can sr.tisfy your own TMI requirements from interal repro-t e

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2d gramming as opposed to coming in with a supplemental appropria-H 4

3 <I,i, tion, then hopefully thev will say I am satisfied and release 4

paper No.

2.

I'd S

Now, that's sort of the name of this game right now.

6 ll COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

What does the phrase "one month 7

has cassed constructive aoproval" mean?

I 8 l.

ME. COOPER:

On uhat paper Nc.

2, we were pretty kind 1.

p 9 ji to tha authorization committees in paper No.

1.

I am answering i

.i.

10 ' this question by ius a different route.

In paper No.

1, we i

s i

11 k took almost two months, I be liave, to get approval out of the 1

12 1 authorization ccanittee s, and, in fact, it was a little bit i

i U l embarrassing because we had to go down to the authorization con-d-

14 H mittees and really exc. lain t.ne lecislation on retrocrammin 9 to h.

15 j; the cc=nittees who apparently wrote that legislation.

16 Now, what the legisla:1cn said on authorization is i

t a

t 17 i! : hat when one men:h gces by and we haven't heard from those l

18 p committees, we nave implicit er constructive approval.

We did 19 l nct take advantage of that on the first paper, because we knew 20 lt it was a learning process between us and the committees.

But c.-

i f

21 the second paper, having been through that, I would say, today, i

.2 ihaving not hearc. Ircm tner anc. having a month go by, 30 days, t

l 23 ll we have constructive approval.

24 l Now, the way this would gc is:

If the House Appropria-emecere. Reoorters. inc. [j o

25.. t 4ca committee, who has said le: me see what the TMI situation bb0 L

n

'I h

,s.

l 10

! I says, I am satisfied with that, go with paper 2, and then the 2;5 enate Appropriation Con =ittee usually follows right on that, 3

right on the heels of the House.

And I would think that would a

constitute tota.1 approval by Congress.

That's what cur hope is.

end#1 5

Chart No.

2, please.

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1 (S lide. )

t 2

This is the first chart I have been able to put l

i

-i'tocether, and I think it represents the best thing the agency I

a has to date en the ever-popular question of what is the cost of 1

l 5 ll TMI for FY 1979.

.I 6I, Now, wnat I have done is separated it into two parts.

'i i7 ;'i One, the costs that we have incurrad to date -- and you may have e

s heard all kinds of crazy estimates --

9 l

(Laughter.)

10 COMMISSIONER AEEARNE:

And this will be another one.

11 l

(Laughter.)

12 hl MR. CCCPER:

The f acts are that since we have prettv i

much our f_nger on the accounting system and we know what has 13 'l

{'

la l been incurred, we have worked on Norm en his RMssystem, that i

1 15 j the maximum costs to date have only been in the neighborhood of l

16 b a million dellars.

Now, that's taking -

if yca look at that, Il 17 ;; you will see the first item was salaries and benefits, is saying I l l i 13 n th a t the RMF system has repcrted something like 500E and that's IlL 19 Len had referred to earlier:

what is the impact of that.

I, 20 li Well, I am here talking ibout TMI.

I guess I can 21 charge TMI.

I am not icing something else, in theory.

But in summary, those are work slips and really not 22,)

f 22 additive to our f unding recuirements.

i Ili 24 Now, the other things are, in fact, additive.

mK ederal Reporters, in. l.

25,:

COPJCSSIONER AHFAFl!E:

Not additive, if you didn't l

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K 12 1

want to somehow cover that to get that work done.

2 MR. COOPER:

That's right.

In fact, it slips into 3,

'80, and it may have another detrimental effect in '81, and you 4

can go with the ripple effect.

5' The other three things are:

You can put your finger I

6 on it more readily.

Overtime was, in fact, paid; that isn'.t i

7 additive, but you can see we're only talking about 45K paid to a>

date.

Contractual support has cnly been ir. uhe neighborhood of 1

I h

9 h a couple of hundred thousand.

I have named a couple of things, I!

I 10 l a whole-body counter that we had up there, the upper-air static:

i 11 !

et cetera.

And in travel you may have seen a note frcm me, my i

12ldiscussionwiththeHouseAppropriationCommittee, they kind of d

13. put thumbs down en regular travel increments in paper 2, but N

14 'when I discussed the TMI prrblem with them they were very help-4 i

l 15 l ful and sv.d they gave me informal approval, I&E.

I at seeing 16 I informal approval to bust the NRC t avel ceiling for the purposi.

1,.

c <..v r.

m 18 So, I think we have that now, but as a ccurtesy I I

19, think we ought to go back and make sure the committees know 20 that alco.

il 21 h MR. EARRY:

To go back to my point.

Of course, obvi-22 ously, it will cost us really progra= wise; but fundingwise, it l

23 h won' t.

But programwise, it will ccst us dearly.

n

>l 24 y CO.vy.ISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes, I see, e.Jeeerai Reocners, inc. ll r

25 J MR. COOPER:

Now, this is our best cut to date, the n

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i 6

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i 4

i 13 1

bottom half of this chart, as to what costs we plan to see 2,incu red for the rest of this year.

And, in effect, the remain-i i

3, in~ charts support this line.

And what I am saying is:

I am o

I i

4:

i. u s t taking again that a c.uess would be a proper -- that this i wculd be a proper distribution on the salaries and benefits.

I I

i 6!!am taking the RM5 System, trying to make an estimate on what I7 l the 11 remaining pay periods will entail and saying it will be 8

in the neighborhood of S2 millicn.

9 Paid overtime takes into consideration that 10 ; Mr. Gossick's memorandum that says you can confer comp time, 11 i palc overtime if you are not given a chance to take that comp.

l.e so t.,.is takes chose thines into consiceration anc n

9 j!

13 1b lic_ht of the actual excerience for the firs four pav c.eriods

'i 14 h of TMI.

So we're only looking at maybe 300K, tops, li 15 -

Contractual support, the detail will follow on that.

l.

i 16 lAnd in travel, that could be maybe 50K high or 50K low, but tha:

17 ought to c.ive vou a.crectv c.ood estimate with I&E and MRR being

1. e 0

ne crime users.

o 19 d The one thing I would throw in, the bottom line of il, 20 y chis chart says TMI is going to cost $13-14 million in FY 1979, i

21 !but I have a few caveats in the right-hand corner side.

What l

22 y am saying is this does nct include, if you look at LOFT and you i

1 t

23 !

look at the change in our testing and you look at maybe we*re I

i 24 planning to go to miner break.ing as opposed to maj or, if you put q

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25 0 a price tag on that, even though you're just restructuring the d.

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3 program, that would -- you could say that's a TMI cost now.

The I,same thing with semi-scale.

That's their reorientation on that.

t 3 l!

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

But are those costs of similar 1

4 character as the work slip, or would this be actual additional 5

costs?

6, MR. COOPER:

No, I would say they 're not of similar l character, because they really 1re a scope change.

7 d

Bl COfC1ISSIONER AHEAPSE:

I understand that.

When I say I

i 9;

"similar character," are you saying -- let's take the LOFT, for i

l 10 i example -- that you would need -- that you see a need to add I

11 ll money to the LCFT prograr., or did you reorient, which is the li 12 ' work slip?

13 MR. COOPER:

Right.

Well, when I was saying " work ja _ slip," I had the connotation that that work needs to be done b

d 15, someday.

That was the differentiation.

11 16 COMMISSIO!ZR AHEAP5E:

That might be someday --

4,

]

MR. 3ARRY.

You night have to pay some deltas in this 17 I

i la irespect downstream, but not in

'79.

It might be one of the i

h 19 4 things that go into a TMI supplemental for

'80.

l l

20d' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Let me s ee.

What's the "96"?

i

) ;

MR. CCCPER:

What I am saying there is when you look it il

'2 d at the $12 million and you take out the work slip on people,

h 23hwhichis about 25, you're down to 96.

That's truly incremental,

i 24 'that we truly have to find sources for now in the next coming i

29 Eederal RODorters. Inc.

25 pages of this presentation.

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1 MR. BARRY:

We have to reshift funds to ccommodate 2

work than aas to be paid for in

'79.

3 'I COMMISSIONZR GILINSKY:

Does this include this staff o

l l

4l that's conducting the investigation?

i 1

5; MP.. EARRY:

Yes.

Tnere are investigators -- investi-i 6 ll cative anticipated costs in here, particularlv. in administrativt

,l 7

support, yes, sir.

I 8'

CCIO:ISSIONER GILINSKY:

It covers all those thincs?

n lI ll 9 i' MR. SARRY:

Yes.

It covers that.

i 10 CO.T11SSIONER AHEARNE:

Do you have a rough idea of 11 how much money that is?

l 12 ;

MR. BARRY:

I think it is probably one of your :. ems l

i 13 l here.

It's prcbably a million dollars here.

You'll see it back l

14I here a little later.

15 i

COMMISSICNER AHEAP2;E:

Bruce, could you tal': about l

16 ] the last item?

o 17 0 MR. CCCPER:

That's what I wanted to mentien.

The e!

t o

la, last item has really enly been in the area of informal conversa-ao l9 tions between them and us, and we've got an indication that they l-o 20 jl may, in fact, have been billing us for some of what they think 2' f 1s reimbursible costs of some balcnced radiological assistance I,

.,,a y work, i

23 ll l

My pccition on that is I happen to have a nice little fletterfrcmthepresidentialassistant, Jack Watson, that says O

.N Focera+ Repor+ers, Inc. g 25, that's their responsibility in a situation like this.

I don't ha J > li U

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O f

'see us reimbursing them.

1 2,

COMMISSIONER AEEARNE:

Lee, in the IRAP, is there a h

3Nrrovision in there for agency reimbursement from funds flow 1

4 Iafter the fact?

5 MR. GCSSICK:

I don't think so.

6 MR. COOPER:

No, there is not.

7 MR. GOSSICK:

It's been discussed before.

1: culls 1

8 out responsibilities the agency will carry out as per this 9

agreement.

.Md I agree with Bruce.

i i

10 COMM7LSIONER GILINSKY:

Did they reimburse us for II

.i review Of DOE reactors?

.i

l. lt MR. GOSSICK:

No.

gt s

13 h na, 372R(:

'" hat's cne thing we naed to discuss -- n n 14 todav, but we need to discuss -- downstream someplace with COE 15 that we had a national crisis on our hands of this nature, andi I

16, 3;l of the forces of gcVernment went in te help solve the prob-il l _e h4 lem; simply because we had the lead respons:bility, don't cut ti i

16 i all the financial resconsibility on that ac. encv..

4 l9 b If the President says get out and solve that --

o l

20i' MR. GOSSICK:

IPA hasn't raised the issue.

I 21 l-gn, 3Agny.

We have not received anything formallv 22 'Ih. from DOE as yet.

It's my understanding that they're debating

'i 22 h with themselves.

Half the people over thare are saying this is OA nonsense, you den't cill for that.

And the cro. aram.ceo:le, von 2 Feceral Reporters, inc. i I

--i!know, who had to do the work are saying, well, we didn't reallj ee h

,i

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5*

l

17 1,get the money --

l 2

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I would imagine there is also 3

comptroller guy saying, look, we're going to have to --

i 4

MR. BARRY:

That's exactly right.

He's saying you're 5

going to have o swallow it, and the guy's saying let's go bill I

6h them.

,N 7!

MR. COOPER:

The only thing I would mention on that, t

8 we're talking in the area of 800K to $1.2 mil?. ion.

9 l' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Is that all?

i 10 MR. COOPER:

Yes.

II CHAIPlGN HENDRIE :

I am surprised it's that low, t

12 MR. COOPER:

Next ch art, please.

13 (S lide. )

I' 14 i' This is the first half of two charts which attempt to h

15I identify all the requirements I have heard frm. the agency, our I

16 assessment cf those requirements.

We made a CON recc=mendation.

I I,' n. i The thing for you to know is that the top side of this discussic-nr f

18h is that I have been back to the effices in every case, and while t

1 l9 ! our recom..'endation is low in many cases, both here and both 20 '

wnere tnere are sources to fund these, that we

• re all in total i

21 agreement now.

So I don't think vou will hear any arguments n

it "I

em

" !i about that, o

al 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

So where you say " office con-4 1

2#fj currence" --

2.:.cersi aeooners, inc. n 25 MR. COOPER:

That's what I am referring to.

n n

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j 25,!

COMMISSIONER AREARNE:

I i.m still not clea.

Is I

l 3 ia u.

q i

e-19 ll.

!1I S3.4 million the total pay raise required for the agency suo-2i plemental?

i 3

MR. COOPER:

Yes.

i a

CHAIPlIAN EENDRIE:

What's the "43" over two pages?

5 MR. COOPER:

Okay.

The "43' shows you like any year l6handeveryyearthereisapayraise.

And right now, 43 is what

!io7[Congressisabout to pass in June er July fcr NRC's portion of I

8.i the pay raise.

So both sides cf the ccin ar3:

We need 34, it i9y looks like we're going to cet 43 and it lcoks like we 're gcing i

11 li 10 :l to have a bulge to help finance -

l 11 !

C01oIISSIGNER MEAPSE:

43 would be more?

12 '

MR. COOPER:

"' hat 's right.

I have informed the House r

I 13 ll Appropriations Committee staff that it Ic_ks like that will I.

il 4

14h give us an excess funding.

.bd they have said you will cer-l 15 ;

tainly need it for TMI, take it.

16 CCSIi:SSICNER AEI"4RNE:

But dat I am trying to drive i

I 17 '

at is that if 34 is what we feel we need for the whole agency I'

d 1 ^ 'l s u.cc. leme ntal, I don't understand how you can allocate 2.9 of e

i, 19 ll dat, 85 percent cf it, to T:'I.

20 '!

MR. COOPEP.:

This is wh;t I saif is really "a chonv h

4 21,'

allocatien."

Onlv. for a booxkeeper's mentality, which I have 1

22 ' te admit to, at the beginning.

If you go back to chart 2, what ei m lul If vcu co back tc char"_- 2, what we.said, technically, 1:

24, the EU system will show 5500,000 cost incurred for TMI and

.ceJecerat Reoorters, Inc.,t1 25 0 ano-her $2 n.illion to go.

That's the 2.5

.850 would include I

i i

n l

Jsu ciU

90 J

1 the paid overtime.

It's just a matter of displaying.

2 i The facts are when we go down to Congress we will be i

e 3

only showing -~ in fact, we will not be showing anything, any 4

need at all.

That is not a reprogramming requirement.

i 5l I was just trying to show you that if we take an i

i6 p approach to our remaining ecsts for personnel, we could, in l theory, say that the costs incurred were costs f or TMI.

But I 7

li 8r don' t. clan to display that anywhere.

li 9 lI MR. BARRY:

My impression is that irrespective of TMI

}

10 or not, what we really needed was S2.4 million of a supplementa.

11 j to finish of f the year.

i n

12 COM:iISSI3rLR AHEARNE:

It has nothing to do with THI.

12 [q Mr.. BARRY:

In a sense, it doesn't.

And we have more 14 than that, and so the residual amount simply will help us fund I

15 p some of the other things that are related to TMI.

16 16 l, CHAIRMAN RE';DRIE:

Okay.

Onward, please.

e 17,I MP. COOPER:

Okay.

The big thing to know there, !

i is5 guers, is I mentioned the comp conversion.

It improves the

!l 4,

19 overtime amount I showed you on page one, and also contemplates 4

20[ a pay raise.

I an only showing this as a requirement cf sourcer e

4 2i l' reacily available.

l.,

4 22 Under salaries and benefits, I have shown four office; oh 23 i that have come in with personnel requirements, and you look i

h 24 L down and can see the total is scrething like 22, I believe.

Y ce_

i

. v.Feceraf Rexrters, tnc. l 25 C talk about each one of them, the very first one is stace 0

r gr n 7 'i F

J.; J L/ '

ll o

ts

21 s

1 '. crograms.

They have identified -- and I think you have seen I

i 2 d the correspondence on this -- 11 people.

If you've seen it, i

I 3' you've seen both sides cf it, with Lee's memo back to state, 4

that suggests on the reorientation cf its existing people, alsc 5,'

talks about maybe getting some contractual suc. ocrt.

I 6l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Also you ended up finding some i

7 !

o. coole.

t t

8g MR. GOSSICK:

People from NRR.

i I

9; MR. COOPER:

Minor shifts, shift of four people there..

I 10.,

I think there's a remaininc. six r.eople, six man-years or six l

31 i people, bodies, that we'll need to get through contractual stp-i il 12 h cort.

And I will discuss that.

a n

13 0l In ELD they have identified four reople.

But I have' na la 9 chown that as the worn suc. certive.

What I mean by that is thev.

1 15j are anticipating if NP.R yc: a number of pec^le, thev mav. need e

i 16, to support that in case work.

We are showing zero there only a

J l,e n!because 1: s ome th:..ng were cone ve:T, verv. r_u.ck1v, we may be 0

4 18.ln, only talking about a hundred peop'e er so, and I ar sure Lee 1

IC plans to adjust that.

For one m:n h, I can't really see how o

d 20 ll that wculd really be much of a requirement on ELD.

n i

21 COMMISSIONTR GILINSKY:

What's the hundred people for 4il 22 j cne mcnth?

o l' t 23 1 MR. GOSSICK:

I am net sure about the one month, but iln 24 9 the discussion later invcives the location cf up to 100 man-

> mee meoonm. inc. il, 25 years, a hundred people at least f or the rest of the fiscal yea:

l f

]

J.; L LU

22 I

from elsewhere in the staf;, from other agencies or whatever, te 2

assist NRR in going ahead with scme cf the case work that has 3' been necessarily put cff on the back bu ner.

4 And the theory here is that if that does happen and 5I a21 this case work proceeds mcre or less as bes c as it can on l

I 6! schedule, Howard is saying that he is probably going to need I

i p some additional help; and 3RG is saying we think they can get

~

,l 9 D hv,

and I agree with that.

i l'

9i CO:01ISSIONER GILINSKY:

Let's see.

You're talking IC, abou* getting a hundred mar-years ?

I Il CO.O'.ISSIONER AHEAPSE :

Which is a bit different than 12 a hundred people.

l IJ !

MR. GOSSICK:

No, we're talking about a hundred peo-l la ple, actually.

'!he man-years is going to turn out to be much 15 ', less than that.

We're only talking about four months left in I

n li1' :n,e :. scal yeur.

} $.

0 d

17,

v=....7 qv r,w

=.r_e. c o. r -

10 _e_ee..+.

i I8 q MR. GOSSICK:

And whatever else follows en beyond the 19 i beginning of the new fiscal year.

i 20 i CO:Oi!SSIONER GILINSKY:

You're talking about getting 21 ther out of other offices or from outside of the agency?

22 'i MR. GOSSICK:

Some of them. But we'll get into that

.t

=> J

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n: In a coment.

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CHAIRF'AN HENDRIE :

I tnink for a ter.corarv force most :

i 11 2!

cf it is outside.

3i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

h a t ' s wh a t I thought.

i l

4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

But the part that's inside, you 5! would say, gee, Howard had to litigate a certain amount on l

end#2 6 !i behalf of those people, whatever they were doing.

,J O

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i 24 1,

MR. DOOPER:

Okay, the next two I can throw together 1

2, verv. c.uickly -- OGC and OPA.

The only thing I think worth men-l 3jtioningthereisreallynothinghastobedonethe-I put 9

4.h, c.uestion marks that can be done later, and that would not be a

'l l

5 congressional reprogramming.

COMMISSIO"ZR AHEARNE:

Enon you say it can be done 6 ',,.

l' 7

later --

i MR. COOPER:

In other words, within our authcrity we 8 li' 9l can add a few people here and a feu people there and not have n

1I to go back into economics, if there is a decision that we go 10 !

d i!

11 J slow.

t 1

12 r',

Oka", in crocram suc.. cort, I think you pretty much know l

I 13 the NRR situat :n.

We have see.. figures such as S3 million for i

u j TMI.

The pu.70se of the program support, as I say, on the right-1; 15hhandcclumn, is to assess the operating plans thrcugh lessons 4

4 16 j learned.

I have added cne other factor:

that of about 400,000.

ii I,

17 ll This will be a surject, fellowing my briefing, that I.ee says he ll 4

18 o,. will address, on the hundred oecole.

I assume s ome of that will o

'l V

19 q come out of labs, other agencies, and I put in S ;00,000 to fund 20 that, calls for about one or two months.

That's the assumption 11 21 g I am making.

h 22 Th+ re is the safeguards of fse t here, that is that d

23 l within this total they car. fund an additional S300,000 of safe-2!1 guards at LASL suppcrt where they are running out of funds there.

I c.se.r i n.oorms. inc. h 9

25.l But, on the other hand, where you.9emefder we originally got 6

-~u

u. a,

i i

e l

e 25 1

$900,000 for centractual assessment, rated for improvements in 2

earlier papers, it looks like we'll only obligate about $600,00C 3,

of that $900,000; therefore, the reduction you see in the CON 4

recommendation reflects the fact that that remaining $300,000 5

will not culminate in an obligation.

6 In research --

~

7 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I.cn sorry.

You did two t' lings s'

there.

The safeguards offset this LASL contract that has to be 1

9 funded?

10 MR. COOPER:

Ye s.

It's ongoing work now.

It looks l

11: like we'll need another $300,000 to complete the work.

It was l'

12 !

an *;nderestimate.

13 COMMISSIONER A2.EAPliE:

I s e e.-

So those are plus-300, 14 but the 300 contract now that expects to be issued in '79 means l'il 15 3 that you have --

'I b

16 1 MR. EARRY :

Funds to suppor t that.

I

p. i

-. c_ M..

c ~.uy o S ' 'a'. F'. ".'s.'~'.',"'w.

e'.- '

a W

y tI 18 o MR. CCOPER:

There is a plus-300 there, and they found i

Il i9j internally another 300 to take care of that.

h, 20 lj COMMISSIONER AREAF2;E:

Somewhere else?

ei 21 L MR. CCCPER:

Yes.

I 22 In research I show S3 million here, but this again is l

22d something that is not going to go back tc Congress, and I will il

'l 24 ll show you that in the last chart, in that within three decisicn l

M Eederei Reporters. Inc. I 25 units they are really just shif ting some werk around.

While I g

4 n

s

,s it h

b

I 26 t1!show S3 million, our best estimate right now may be somewhere i

I 2

between two and three million dollars, and that includes the 11 3 0 thinge I show in the right-hand column, t'te redirection and the I

i I4l LWR, damaged fuel core and the primary ccolant system behavior.

i 1

5 And I will show von later on how wi-hin the LWR high-i 1

6/ resistant integrity, they are funding that source.

7 CEAIP332i HENERIE:

We're going to have to move this 8

7.uch faster.

4: re just not going to be able to dig down into t

9l!: hat.

Let'. T.Ove it.

l 10 MR. IOOPER:

All right.

.i 11 y I don't think that really there is anything to men-lt..

12,

tion in the EDC.

'l 12 y CHAIF332i EENDRIE:

I understand it.

I4 fl l

(Slide.)

16 15 :l l

l MR. COOPER:

This is the second art of the require-e i,

.I 16 li ments.

I think, basically, they speak for themselves.

Let me 1

h 17 h just eyeball this and see if there is anything worth making any 18 special mention of.

,1a 19 d I shcw a whopping requirement in admin support, the 20, second line.

But the point is:

With some redirection cf admir 21 h support work and scme sources of funds through things that cid fl

'l 22 I! not culminate they can satisfy the bulk of their requirements.

1 22 [ We are both in agreement -- Dan Donohue and I.

There is ab out h

2d5 700 additional that will take care of all those requirements.

..4,our ae:enm. in: lrj 25 [

The travel,you have heard about af infinitum.

I told i.

J J '.]

> p )'

77f LJ 1

'I 1:

I t

27 1

you about the cutting agreement with the House.

I think that 2

takes care of that chart.

3, The bottom line on this chart is you see sources -

h, I

and that got ma into trouble 4l you see the 13.9 as a requirement, 5

on that personnel.

The only way I get through the firr: chart 6

is to work uith personnel.

At any rate, while the offices have Iasked for about $14 million in TMI and can fund part of that 7

a from others, fer a net requirement of $12 millien, we're saying e

that requirement is about 11.3, and the next chart will show the sources a e for that.

10 'l,von what i

l'I (5lide.)

l l

12 We talked about the ray raise supplemental funding.

13 j The pay raise would be pay raise requirements.

So that's a l. a_ e

,a, _, u.

o_a

_a.

,4 I

15 ll Going down there, I really don't th.nk there's any-le ll thing worth really mentioning, except for NASAP and I GCE down 17 [aat the bott~n.

The thi ; to point out to you is that in paper l

l 18 I

No.

1, on the unobligated balances, we say that we will try to io 17 'l take care of that.

This paper No. 3 that we propose to send n

1 20 ; you today :ias said the verid has changed a little bit; there's 1

1 21 ', some'hing calle.d "TMI, " and looking at priorities and what have

.a 22 ;

• Ou, we tn nk we can forego the NASAP/INFCE work.

So that is o

ll 23 ] one majcr change in the paper structure.

l 2 ','l, l

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2S i

1i VOICE:

We can't hear ycu.

2l MR. BARRY:

Oh, I'm sorry.

i 33 I said, we talked to Dr. Cornell on this one l

4l because it was initiated up there during the time he was there, i

5 and he agreed this would be of rufficient low priority that he 63 didn't think we would have any problem with eliminating that, in 7

view of TMI.

L 3

Cy_ AIRMAN HENDRIE:

Okay, so the bottom line on this I

9iis t.ne ccmptroller's recommendation is that we reshurrle i

10 s;1,327,000 from its present locationE in the fiscal '79 budget i

IIll layout inte othcr locations to suit the needs of TMI and other le 12 0 actions that are coinc on.

k 1

13 l You say that this Sll,:

700 derives from a set cf 6,

M 'i office requests at about $14 mill:

that through various --

u, Iy

~

IS4 that some of that $14 million can be accommodated eithout i.

I' 16 iirecrocrammine within office numbers, that there is -- that most 1:

a 17 -l of it is a balance, beyond that, and that you have argued with n

If Io O the various office directors.

en 19 h End I don't know. cuite hcw to ascribe the truce which t

4 h

203 follows, buc as I interpret what you have said, the 511,327,000 21 represents a reprogramming ccnfiguration which has not brought I'

22 I.,oren revolt from the crogram directors.

Perhaps I could put it I'

23 V that wav.

.d6 4-.

MR. GCSSICK:

Fair enough.

=Jederai Reporters, Inc. lt 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

If that is not the understandinc t

I q r, ;]

s J>

l' i

29

) ;out amidst program directors, why, I guess this is a chance for 2

them to stand up and holler to the contrary.

'fI don ' t 12e ar I.

3 hellers, I an oing to assume that, as ia often the case in i

3 these budget matters, that this final configuration which is 5 j listed under " Comptroller Recommendation" doesn't necessarily, llfor anv one of you, let alone all, represent the best cf all 3,1 0

7l possible worlds, but that in the process of grinding a little I

h bit against each other and a good deal with the comptroller's a-1n

.l i 9 r er:..1ce, why the staf: has, by anc-large, been sha.xen cown into 10 an agreement on how we need to regroup the fiscal '79 budget tc 11 ' get ca with the things before us.

I i

1 -

Is that. a reasonable way --

13 MR. BARRY:

I would only add we did:.'t have to armae eo o

14 i' very much.

The staff has been very, verv cooperative in this liil 15 : exercise to support TMI.

It was very c. ratif v inc. to come up i

I, 16 with this, that we had complete cooperation.

1, 17 l CHAIR'G.'s EENDRIE :

I assume that's always the case,

!a i

13 p but cooperation may at times be more vigorously voiced than a

19 other times.

But I remember from my own days on the staff tha 20 I alwavs felt that I was cocoeratinc ccmcletelv within the il\\

21 h program.

h

.2,;

' '.auchter. )

l i

MR. COOPER:

I am not c oinc. to co throuc_h this.

m. ~;

i 24 j (S lide. )

.a Fecerst A epor*ers. inc. '

25 '

Just to show you that when you see the paper up here hn 9 r} rd j

/4

(. }u J>

30 1,today, these are the things that break thresholds for various o

i 2o reasons.

I 3l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

But we need to go back to a previ-4 ous slide, because, in fact, what this proposition says is you 5l come to the Commission and say, look, we need in order to rear-l6jl range the '79 budget items, in order to reflect what we have d

7 ll0 done and have got to do to cet through the balance of

'79, here l

8l;l is whatit is.

i 9

( S lide. )

1 10 h And unless Commissioners have -- see problems or so h

11d. on we are runninc out of fiscal year.

I would suggest we say, r

t, i

12 -

good, let us do that.

I o

i 12 h COM' ISSIONER AHEARNE:

I have to sav_

"No."

i l

14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Why?

i n

P 15.'

COM:iISSIONER AEEARNE:

Because, obviously, the ecmp-1 Fl 16 ll troller felt that there is a lot of detail that he though t it i

il 17 j would be interesting for us to understand.

Cbviously, both of i

18 i v. ou don ' t have time to do that, or ma'.

.cu already understand 4

o 19 f it.

I don't, and so I will have tc meet with Len and Bruce il H

20 f later to go through these, a,

1 21 CHAIRMA.N EENDRIE:

Wellr vou are obvicusly entitled 4

22 li to whatever time and e:< amination you would like to have, John.

Hu 23 h COMMISSIONER AEEA.lII:

My impressicr was when these ild F

241 came in last night that they were going to caterially talk about I

w.cer., a. m n.rs.inc.

25h this poin' O..,

h

-). ;

i v

c;i p

'I

'l Ie

31 i

1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

We have a number of other things 2

that are interesting and useful to talk about.

3j COMv.ISSIONER LEEARNE:

Yes.

l 4

CHAIRMA7 HENDRIE:

In panicular, I have a letter whic^

5, is addrecsed to me from Mr. Sevel and Mr. J amey Whitney, and I

6 j it seems to me incumbent upon the agency to move forward cn L

7

' " 4._e.

Bl COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

It does.

I just feel it's I

i 9l incumbent on me to t_f to unde stand, when we 're shuf fling 10 b dollars around, what these items are.

So, I propose to meet ti 11 fi with Len and Bruce this afternoon, c,

{

12 l MR. 3ARRY:

We will certainly do that.

I don't think.

i 12,. it would take that much time.

14 COMMISSIONER AHEAFl3:

I would like to go through i

15 h these charts.

il i

I 16 \\

" =...~._=.=_'_:uN

u. = N. D.=_~ =.

=. _=.. e.

m d'l 17 ]

.v ?. 3 A 5.Y :

Fine.

W would be glad to.

L 15 i CHAI?lIA' HENDRIE:

Do you feel a need to go through 1,1,

'?[moredetail?

I, 20 MR. C-ILINSRY :

Acuually, I did want to take a look n

I 2' j at this. In urcing that se move along, I ?idn' t mean there was b

22 ii something I didn't want to take a look at; I didn't think that 4

u i

22 i the presentation here needed to duell on some of the details, i

i 2.1 0 w,'

. w.._i..1. wo e y+.. u.

_ a

_l o ops ' a. _" m.

4 ed eral R eporters, lec. g, _

_r j

25 ".

MR. BARRY:

Let me add, we will cover this with

) I I

J.; )

'ou e

I i

f-I t'

32 1

Commissioner Ahearne and Comissioner Gilinsky, as they like.

2 The only place where we really had to go into program-t i

3i ming -- in other words, go inte one cf the program directors and 4

reduce his program -- was in research, and we will cover uhat 5

with you, where and why.

No place else did we really have to 6

stop the program, other than in the case of Mz. Denton's shop, 7

and he obviously -- as you know, he is not doing some of his normal wcrkload in order to do TMI.

But the only place we 8l l would really have to reduce available dollars in order to have 9

I i.

10 II. the balance of the funds that we need was in research, and that I

li i was what -- $1,350,000.

The rest of :.t -- other than, as we i.

t 12 l said, the NASAP/INFCE S800,000 are funds that we would not 13 c-hesise be using.

I i

la '

CEAIPrd HENDRIE:

Is there -- where in here do we i

15 ccver the investigation costs?

i 16 g MR. 3ARRY :

Primarily under administration.

a n

17 h CHAIPF.AN HENDRIE :

That's crimarily unfer reprogram-I h

li

t l a,! ! ming and administration?

p i

19

h... - -.

,. _1 -

nnd as you may :.ecal.

we can co that z.11 e n e.r.

o f-i 20j within our administrative support amount, except for $750,000.

I.

i' 21 M And we'll have to have a source of funds f or chat.

Of co"zse, i

22 ; as I say, we've had various sources.

i 23 !

But I certainly will be glad to sit with I

24 :l Cc=issioner Ahearne and co throuch this in detail.

..asecere, newnen. sne. p m Il v.1.n, 7 -,j..

h.

,,.P7

yes.

raJ r

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. _m- % r p-l

- r"*e 1l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You will have a chance to co over 2b it with the controller and the staf f this af ternoon.

6 I

3l Dick, do you think you will be around?

i 1

4!

COMMISSIONER GI INSKY:

Ye '3.

i 5l, CHAIM1AN HENDRIE:

Eecause the reprogra:=ing letter l

I 6!

then will be up, and it's obviously desirable that we move i

7 erpediticu.-ly in our comments.

The other two Commissioners, 8

who are not here, will of course be having that letteer come 9,

around to ther fcr concurrence as well.

.l 10

s ll n

70 MR. GGSSICK:

Yes, sir.

It was faxad out to me, l!

4 8 j!

I'm sure, in distribution.

We can c_et a ccov to vou.

d P

9 T h :. s,

c," course, gives us a good handle or really I

i going after tne ace'.tlonal assistance 1.g we can identiry t.e i

i 11 kind of people that will be useful.

Pi 12 CD:OiISSIONI'R GILINSKY :

I thought the people e pectef I

13 l' us to really draw fror outside the agency.

1 I

It 14 ;

MR. GOSSICK:

It's scrt of a cortination.

I think n

a 15,

the words were both reprogram.ing or reallocaticn of people d

r 16!!

within the staff and gerning help from other federal agencies.

17 nu~

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~". e ";.. a"; have

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15 much help as we can f rcm outside.

'Y CHAIRMAN EENDRIZ:

In m' discussions with them, I 20 had said I thought, because o f tb e pre-TMI task force efforts 21 ej to help NRR through -- do you remember, last su.mer and fall e

22 !!

w e w e -=_ +_ a _'.. _ n e,

= " o - +.

--.# # _4 - _~_ _cos

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v-1 other offices have anv.wav, that are themselves TMI-related, Ceceral ReDorters, Inc..

25,;

in ry conversations with them I suggested that the bulk cf q

,3 o-Y.) 0 L.

N

37 i

. _ n_

5 i

i 1,

that transition force would have to come from outside the I

2' acenc.v.

And I think the laboratories are a clear source of the 1

l 3i bulk of that expertise.

i It's possible r a given specialty you might want 5

to leek and see if the Corps or USGS or somebody like that can 6

helo. for the c. articular specialty.

The particular specialtv I

7 ll for the temporarv work source has to come from outside.

i il 8

MR. GOSS:CK:

Well, if we were to go ahead with i.

9id moving these 24 people --

I'f' 10,

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Let me raise a question.

The I

11 l 24 or 20-odd are in effect reassignments within the agency?

I i

12 !

Is that all people to NRR or is that the sum of 4cbs c.oinc.

s I

r 13.;

out to other offices and people cot'ng in?

l 14 MR. GOSSICF.

That's a point I wanted to address.

15 q It's actually 24 peo le working or NRR business, and there's i

t

-tg h

16,

nll a matter of wnere it's best done and then how these 1

17,l

.recole ouc.ht tc be ac.clied.

Jus' to recap, eight of those or i

j t

..:,, cut c:. Stannarcs,

.,esearch, 18 nane c:. tnose wouJ.c come out c:

s 19,

and two out of MPA.

o i

e"_:._7 P "_.N

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r.d. y.". *. o"" "' wha _ e?.

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c.

n_ s c.,

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2 22 !!

13 out of Standards and two cut c f MPA.

And I think you n

tl n ;,

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.n.

h e.a..

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w

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24 h c_ ene rally what that does to that.7rocram.

But there are two 2E?Cef8 RfDorttf s, Inc. i 25 ll[ points the 3RG has raised and I think they are worthy of d

l j

-1 l

'{

g I L

q N. ) ;V l

1

li Ite,6 1

38 l

1 discussion.

i i

2' I

1.

a to discuss this with Earold,- that 2s opposed n

I-h 3

to moving some of these people onte casework, because the peop;;

j

.i I

4i that were doing the casework are of f doing special projects,

l 5:

and having less efficiency in the casework area, the suggestic-l l

let's put these people that we ' re talking abou 6l was made that, 7

I reallocating to scme of these special projects and bring the if l

a caseworkers back home who are fully familiar with that effort, Ih 9 lI so that they can get on with it on a more ef ficient b

~1s.

I 10 '

Anf the other question or the e_her pcint is, where i

11 possible -- and this may only be partially possible -- but il 12 '

where we c m, if there are discreet tasks. hat can be farmed 13 y cut to these people in the present envircnment, let that i

c h

la !

management and support take the place of helping t'.ese people l'l 15 into the Phillips Building.

And I think we have to 1cok at m

o 16 -

both of these and do as much of that as we possibly can.

l 17 "

And I believe, Earc1d, you agree with that, tc the I

IS s extent that we can.

I think you ouph: tc ccanent on the 1;

m u l.,... o.,

m,___.

_4 2

'l 1

20 h MP.. DENTON:

I'd like to c, went on that nunber, n

21 4 because -- that we ' re talking about.

You recall, we transferr..

n h'I 22 1 70 ceccle inte new tasks totally, and we talked about how many d

23 p people it would take to replace these 70.

And we recogni2.9d u

24 '

that they won't be fully efficient ;f they ccme in frcm

.s.~gderal Reporters. inc.

q.

3 curside c.rouc.s, anc there,s coinc to re s cne. Ancrease witn

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.e

)

L,

_z).>)

a s

p F

I

.:e 7 39 regard to the TMI Lessons Learned impact en everythinc.

I 1

i

, p, think vou ought to let me c.ive.vou a brief o.resentation b.v

.t h

Frank Schro= der on what we can do with the resources that are 3,

r,1 It available today after we have dedicated the resources that 3

n 61 Il 5

you approved the last time to the Lessons Learned Grcup, the 6

bulletins and orders group, the SEP program, the other opera -

ing tasks, the unidentified safety issues, and show you where 7

I i

gI we are starting from.

I 9'

It is incertant who these people are that we ' re t

l 10 ta.1. kin g abo ut.

You can't just deal in numbers, because if Ia 11 i thev all fit in the same branch then we don': move anvwhere.

I L

1, i Thev have c.ot to be people who fill in the gaps in the various I

i 13 tecnnical c.--.ir:1cu. ties.

14]

Why don't I have Frank Schroeder give you just a c

Ic thumbnail sketch?

We have assic.ned neoc.le internallv. now, g

I 16 back wl:n 1,.RR, nat we,ve got tne incivicua_s identitlec so u

Fraak knows who's left in each branch and can te21 cou branch 17,

t 13,

hy branch now how he sees de picture, rather than dealing

'i 19 j with a large group of people.

a a

(..nanding documents t-Commissioners. ;

o,..RO D:__x :

- wn 20 y a r..

y a

' l.n, I apologize for net havinc the slides, but I hac tc prepare If

.,. h this last night.

It is a two-page documant.

i I

3 j

.,,._R___.a:

1 see.

C u..,. 3.,m..,.

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.e. 2.

1, 2.: h MR. SCHRCEDER:

If you could focus first on the 7 Fedefal R eOOrters, Inc. '!

25 l tables there, what I have attempted to do in that table is i

h, ll

.. T lV 4

/

e i

g, j.) D g,

U

- te 8 40 9 ve vou a c.uick cicture of how the impact of the reassic.nments i

1 4

2 that we made varies across the disciplines in system safety.

i 3l I have each bran t enumerated, and the first column is the l

4' number of reviewers in that branch prior to the interim reor-5 canization.

6 The second column is an estimate of the number of 1

d 7l equivalent full bodies, if you will, out cf that first column 8,

that were actuallv working full-time on casework.

This is q

9 !,

in recognition that with. n those branc.nes we were co.ng some a,

10 'a activities on unresclved safety issues, some support of DOR i

n 11 anc so : orth.

12 -

And then the last column represents the number of 13 '

reviewers left to each of those branches in the interim i

14 %

wrganization, which is solely devotef to casework.

So the u

15 I change in casework is 'he cirrerence ce: ween those last two d-16 :j columns.

i 17 "

As you can see, some hranches, one or two, are a '.i kv

.'-6.i s,

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-= "

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5 2 0 R, tcc cne there, drc:s from eic.ht reviewers to two.

Anf ac.ain, n,

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ycu have to look even be.vond "ust the numbers.

With two J

n ll l

22 L oeocle, we don't cover all cf the skills that we were covering n

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,4 severe on :na oranen.

2 1

2 7.cer. a = w i. inc. f 25 l Well, that cives you a general picture of how it n

7~l J.J N' 9 ('j ~/

Lio

o

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does varv within the disciolines, which makes Harold's point 1

that we have to look very carefullv at the oeocle we would oe 2

getting to make s are that there is a mesh with the needs that 3

we have.

5q The second page is just a ve rv brief overview to 1

4,.

.. you what my current perceptien is of what we can do on h,

tesa 4-I il

, Il the operating license casewcrk over the next six to eight

'h, i

months with that staff on the first page.

There are four of g

the branches that, as best as we can see, can do reall.y nothinc.

9 I

n).l but work on the seven most near-term operating license reviews.

n 11't 11 q' There 's There are a coucle cf a minor exceo ion to that.

il 12 l activities that really have to go on.

The Midland settlement i,

i prchlem and the Balle.v c.roblem with oiles reallv. have to go s,I u

jaj on in addition to that, unfortunately, en some of the most a

il Ic impacted branches.

9 a

!I 16 h The remaining branches besices those four that are 4,

,, l

= cst severelv..

it looxs to us 21xe we can cceplete those

nit, 4/ ;

I!

s seven near-tern OL reviews and make some progress on the next U

i t

19 s seven oo.eratinc. licenses within the next six to eic.ht months.

I.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Your categories are 2C 21 o Roger Boyd's?

u e

m. b MR. SCHROEDER:

Rivht.

And if you remember, Ecyd's h

23 [

paper said we thought we could do that.

And what I'- telling I

N 24 you, there are four branches where I dc.'t think we can do

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mee 10 42 1

1 The next bullet there is just a comment that with ri 2 d' t

1 some additicnal manpower outside c f NRR, from elsewhere in the:

3 agency or outside the agency, and some additional dollars, w 4

think we can make some inroads on the next nine operating 1

5t license reviews, but only in some of the branches.

Tiare are i

I 6

some of the branches where it just doesn't look very feasible I

7 to do ' ery much with contractual assistance in their reviews.

8 The reason I coupled additional manpower and i,

9i contractual dollars is, again, some of these heavily impacted; i

10 branches, the prchlem with increasing our utilization of II fd contractor s pport for casework is that we don't have anybody

'i 12 tc manage the centra:ts left in those branches.

So a few l

..i 1J additional people back in the branches to do that could be 0

4 14 e multiplied by use of a contractor.

1 h

If '

And then the last bullet is just a caveat tnat ncne i

i 16 h, of that.cro ection makes s

a n v. attempt to estimate the impact t

h, :a of Three Mile Island Lassons Learned, which will undouhtedly i

IS be most severe, in mv mind, on the intermediate operating o

s 1"*

i' licenses. About the time that it begins to have an impact, 20 ] we will perforce be focusing on the very near-term enes fic s m,.

d

.,y h

and that means the intermediate ones will be the ones that e'

I a$ l!I will get che first slippages.

lL 23 h MR. DENTON:

One c her point 1 wanted tc make is i

i 2j tg..a

-ran,x is cerinitely -- nas division is cerinitely the i

't-Fecers' R eporters, lnc. l Ml i=OaC~a#

p There are a few imOaC:s in G5E, notablV the i

most t

d 300 f

L',

l 43 n e 11 i

1i effluent treatment system branch, because of the continuing i

I involvement in TMI, and some imoact in the project branch for

, li t

3

• I projec.t managers who have been assigned out.

Plus we wanted 4

to beef up the operating licensing group.

So.f you look 5

outside GSE, we can identify about 10 other people, but they i

6 :i are not as heavily skilled dependably -- tend to be.reople I

7 ',

we can transfer around between predect manager functions.

I h

a !!

E,0 I wanted you tc concentrate on Frank's needs.

ii 9 j.

So I have been asked the cuestion, what can I do with the 16 i

10 i, kinds of rescurces that are being talked about.

And I really

s t!

11 1 can': answer that today until I know the skills and the l

i 12 -

incivlauals involvec,.

Once _ Know wno tn, ese people are involve:

A 13 that are being considered, Frank can see where they fit in 14 1 the organization and I can then give you an assessment of wha J

!i 15 1 we will be able to do, and likewise what we will be able to h

li 16 q get from the other Gcvernment agencies.

0 17 d CCF_"ISSIONER AEEARNE:

That would be even more t: us,

i 15 '

I guess, when we go cut to the other Gcvernment agencies.

At

.. e re getting frc= within NRC, you would 19 least the pe;ple i

20 ;

have much more instant access to what are the skills.

When

.i

't 21 y you go out to the other agencies, it begins to fall cff.

4 i.

22 q MR. DENTON:

That's correct.

I 23 l I'.R. GCSSICK:

However, in scme areas you pretty b

much know what you're worxing with.

I believe in the instru-24,

d

,r Jedef 3! AfDorters. Inc. d 25 'l mentation area that Hanauer has been working with, Oak Ridge, h

,- 9

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I b, if we can get them to work in a certain area --

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2' MR. DENTON:

That's an area where money may he able I

r 2l to help those branches out more than we thought.

r 4

MR. SCHROEDER:

And that's specifically one I had I

5i in mind, where one or two additional people in the branch to I

i 6 l' ride nerd en an expanded contract effort for maximum effort --

i 7

MR. DENTON:

One of the most severaly impacted 1

8 branches is the reactor systems branch, where there are cnly fl 9 Il two people lef t who were originally in that function.

We have a,

10 !n: picked out another fcur people that we think we can move in Il j there.

But tna

's why Frank's chart showed two plus four.

I2 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Can You focus your requert --

i t

12 ';

sav for exam le, I guess we cught to go to DOE _and ask for J

s, 14 i assistance.

Can ycu focus those requests such as you just 9

<t i

15 lr! mentioned, se that it isn't broad, we need all the help we l

16 ll' can ce: cr we need 100 ceccle?

s. F 17 MR. DENTON:

Certainly.

IS COMMISSIONER AREARNE:

Rather-here is exactly what q

t,,

3 ',,,

we need.

I:

20 l hiR. DENTON:

We11, the effcrt we went through the r

if 21 h first time we vere asked that was just te identifv the skills 1

22 i that would resh.

Now that we have our own internal organica-1 23 N tion, we'll be able to say we need seven nuclear encinaers or I

}~d I;j we need four construction engineers --

een %cnm. inc g

..s 30 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Well, if you need more, fcr a

H.

Ja I

.ui

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1:

45

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t l

1 example, can v.ou say we need doublina. or triplina. of the h

t t

2 support of the instrumentation section, or whatever it is at ti2j Oak Ridge; we need the environmental section at Oak Ridge to I

i I

do this?

5s MR. DENTON:

Yes, sir.

6 CO>'MISSIONER AHEARNE:

That would apoear to be even l

7 more useful.

MR. DENTON:

In some areas I' m sure the Tesct.rces 8l e

f

c. ';

are there, such as the Corrs of En,ineers.

It has always been i:

Il help 10 1 a question of pricrity:

how much attention, how m, I

it 11 they can give us.

1

,4.,,..

m.re.RLm s u. -

12 l L O_u_v..:.. 5,2 0 _ n.

r.

3 a.

I 13 e VR. DENTON:

Buc ! just wanted to make the pcint

!l.

14,.

that un:11 we nave real y fin snec cur intc nal alaccation 4o 15 J and kncv whc chese pecple may be and where they wculf really 16,

work, I really can' say what it woulf do in terms cf -.he

li

,,, r,I c ve. c.'_1 a *_ _4 v_3 _v.

'l

'I 18 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It seems to me we cucht to coen d,

those discussicns with -- carticulariv with the DOE and the l e ',

h 20 f labs to the extent that it appears useful, the Ccrps and

'l i

$.1 1 evervthing else anc ce 1.9 to see how those resources coua,c.

r 22 '

be developed and what all is required to get the werk moving, t

22 ?

COMMISSIONER AEEARNE:

I guess we also want to, 0

2 wntle we are doing that, in some way talk to Senater Eart's O

.:.ceni n norms. inc.

n 25 '

Committee.

It's a problem we have been pushing on.

We use t

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I i-I f

i

.te 14 46 i

i I

1 the national 17.bs coo much.

I 2

CHAIR 5'AN HENDRIE:

Well, if they have another source 1

3 h of skilled people who are not disabled by conflicts, I'd be o

4l delighted to discuss it with them.

3 ll 5!

COMMISSIOliER AHEARNE:

All I'm saying is I think we i

116j have to ge ahead and work with DOE to try to get these people, I

7 but at the same time recognizing that Senator Hart hac been, I

I S

followinc the GAO recort, had been rushinc for us to distance l

1 9

Ourselves more.

So we ought to at least point out to the t

e 10 lI Senator:

Here is the near-term problem and we see no other 1

..i source.

Ii i

12 '

CHAIFS.AN HENDRIE:

Yes.

I doubt they'11 have any i

i 13 ij problem with it, as a matter of fact.

I 14 i Let's see.

Congressicnal -- who do I see from OCA?

15 MR. CASE:

Carl was here, but he left a few minutes 16 ago.

17 !l CHAIFF.AN HENDRIE:

He got out Of here just in the J

'8 '

nick of time.

19 We'll try to get Carl included on our discussion i

20 Items.

I think you better get abaad and get started on these U

d 21 -d contacts and seeing where we can --

.I 22 ]

COMMISSICNER AHEARNE:

I think 05'E would alsc like 23.I i

a letter back, c

ll l

24 !!

CHAI?JAN HENDRIE:

Yes.

It's clear that we will 2 Fece'ai Reoorters. inc. O d

25 >

nave tc mar.e a rese. cnse to OMS and.' think :.t may be -- mav. be l.

J a {w}

ie u

's o

iI

.c 15' hf 47 I

?,,!

i i

1i as soon as we make our first rcund set of contacts, begin to 2

see what the resource capability is and how far we go, why, 3

then we can write back and say:

Okay, thank you very much, aj here's what we're doing and it looks like we can get this far o

il 5 q'i w i 'w.6 4*

k

• w.

s la SI 6 j' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I suspect that they might n

7 even like an answer back that might say:

We are exploring

s. P this and we'll be back to.vou in scme detail.

i I

f 9h CHAIPSAN HENDRIE:

Yes.

i l'

10 q'l MR. GCSSICK:

We would thank you for your help.

e il CHAIPSAN HENDRIE:

That's a c.ood thouc.ht.

Let me 12 !

talk to you about that, an appropriate reply, which we will 13q circulate, ooviously.

I 14 Okay?

15 g MR. GOSSICE:

Can we give you a quick rundown on 1v 16 !

Our decisicn cnit tracking system, and we will stay within I

t,'

17 h our allotted time.

,i i

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d.11 r1en:.

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e. m 18 -

e. ;

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.~ 1 i'

e-5 19 U Well, we rtarted a few minutes late.

I 20 j MR. HALLER:

I have onlv twc viewcrachs, i,

i 2;h Mr. Chairman (Inaudible).

2 L MP. GCSSICK:

Speak up, please.

i; 23 !

MR. HALLER:

As I said, I have onl. two viewcraphs.

i 24 Do vou have the.andout that was provided?

J-Fece ai R aoortees, Inc. j!

25 1 COECSSIONER AHEAPZE:

On decision unit tracking l i I

4 i,

,') *L Ut i j en h.

.te 16 48 4

1' system?

2 MR. HALLER:

Yes.

i I

3q While we are waiting for the slide to come up, I i,

l 4i will just go ahead and start off on the material that you have.

5, As you are aware, we have a pilot program under way 6

in fiscal '79 which is looking at the tracking of 13 decision 7

units.

We are now in the process of providing monthly updates I

81 to the various c:: aces.

l 9j CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Is it 13 or 14?

h 1

MR. HALLER:

Well, it at one time, sir, was 14.

I t .

10 11 j now 13.

I i

12 :

We have some work we're lookinc at for the Office t

i 13 r of Administration, and their view was this really wasn't a 1

I 14 lil very productive exercise.

It was basically looking at this n

li II,'i c

the Terra computer, that tv.oe ci thinc..

It was felt q

.rocrat, 16 h it was better to just go ahead and loch at it in a different t

,I 1

17 !

way on normal agencywifa work.

H 18 h As I s a v., we are providinc. these updates to the o

19 l cffices.

The third one, which was just recently sent out --

20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Could you just tell us s"..

• " cP. '.

4

.l,<

w ".a '...-

2'"

4 22 i MR. HALLER:

All right.

Once again, what we are o

i 23 N.

trvinc to do is --

l 4

24 C.' AIRMAN HENDRIE:

You mean the.carticular decis:.on 1,

TP Erdef 8 Reporters Inc. '

25 ',

units?

n i\\o T

l 0;'

-.')~; O v

e

m:c 17 l

49 l

I COMMISSIONER "ILINSKY:

No, no, no.

p, 2 j!

MR. HALLER:

What the system does?

c 3 0,,

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Yes.

I 4l MR. HALLER:

All right.

What we try to do is to, 5i first of all, estchlisa wha' the offices say they are going to I

l 6

d t, and the amount of renources that they say they will need 7 ll to do it.

Ti.en dedng the year we would track what actcally Il Bl has beer done and how many resources have actually been spent i

9!

to do whatever was done.

That's the basic purpose of the 10 system.

I 11 It is hoped that this system would help the offices i

12 j

in the management of their programs, that it can he of use tc f

13 p - the EDO and :ne Commission, and it might alsc be of help to l

l 14,

the ac.encv in exc_laininc; its procrams to OMS and the Concress.

1:

15 As Mr. GOssick mentioned, the decisica units are t-i

6 :

beinc used as part of the rcutine PAR briefings which are I

o, I

17,

given to Mr. Gossick and the staff.

So f ar all of the of fices, IE,

the major offices, have used this cs part of their PAR brief-19 ines, with the exception c f Standards Development, whcse turn 20 g is coming in early July.

I:

21 Il We are now in the process of reviewing sr.ne of the d

22 lessons learned as part of car :llot effort, anf we are trying a

22 h c prcceed ahead into the fiscal '80 development so that we n

t.

24,:

can have a full-blown system up and running by about the i

.+Feceral A sso~vs. Inc.

25 1st of October.

l

-' O h JJ)

• ] *i

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(

u h

mte 18 50 I

CHAI?JiAN HENDRIE:

Let me -- I hear a question cominc::

2l over here.

I,et me see if I can get mine in first.

I 3:

The PAR briefings, at least a while ago, it seems tc 4

me were in cart 5.ased on the manacement b.v obiectives svstem.

\\

s i

i 5I That is, they spoke, among other things, t.0 the MBCs.

Now, i

6 there are probably 112 management schemes that v.o could use t

7I in any given organization, and I suspect about the only i

B!

pr.nciple is really fundamentally that you ourh to decide t,

9' which one you are c.oinc. to use and stick to it.

l 10 ;l MR. GCSSICK:

To an_icicate vour question, I think, M

1I'

'l this, cnce we get the full-blown system in, and even to the i

}

12 i extent that we have c_o these cilot trackinc. svstems in, the l

f I3 jt MEOs as tney have been used will disappear.

We will no icnger i.

use uhose, d

15

'l Instead, however, with the Com-ission guidance on J

0 I6 ll what it wishes, we have suggested to you some crosscuts by li l,' a such as waste management, safeguards, whatever.

We ct n e

areas,

-l

.i I S,'

cut through these varicus decisicn units and pull ycu, you 19,

knew, a total effort going in these various crosscut areas,

'C walen cz.- be kinc c: the major agency objectives, if ycu wil_,

i

,I or programs that ycu want to track en an across-the-board

..i 1.

.3 4-U basis.

But, to answer your question, nc, we cre nc: gcing

!i

I' to prcliferate systems here. With this coming into place, we nrecerai Reporters. Inc.

,c a

-q are doing away with the cld office MBos.

I

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51 l

i 1l CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:

And as you say, you will cover 2

this sort of -- the M30s ran across the agency without regard i

3 j' to the organizaticnal units and the way you cut up your i

4 i' budget, and that was always the difficul.ty with the M30s.

l 5l But they did have the kind of thing, when you tali.ed about, l

6l say, well, high-level waste disposal as an MEO, why, in 7

principle, you got eve rv. thin c. in the ac.encv. under that heading.

8' But you would treat that n,w, vou sav, bv crosscuts?

N, 93 MR. GOSSICK:

Yes, through this.

i' 10 i CHAIF_s:AN HENDRII:

Now let me ask another cuestion I

,e 11 before I release to John, and that is:

In the briefings so

,' I 12 l 6,

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ment.

How does tnat seem to go?

Does 1: see.T to be, from t,

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h 17 3 catec.ories, I thini: it's essent.al that we he able to sav, 15 1 you gave us X dollars anf i people to do.,hatever the task o

19 l And clearly, we have to be in a position to answer the was.

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24 j cgA axAs gnDRIE:

Okay.

So f rom that s tandpcint,

. :e. ~ecers' Reporters. Inc. i n.3 9 at least, it's an improvement.

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52 I

John, there is a program planning thing which you

,l i

have encouraged some of the rest of us to look at.

i lh

=

ll CO.v3.ISSIONER AHEAF';E:

ies.

I'm glad you considered J

i 4

that --

1 I

f ll CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It's an inch and a half thick, il 4,i did you know that?

7 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY:

(Nods head negatively.)

8 CHAIR. VAN HENDRIE:

Well, it really is.

i N

9k

( La ughte r. )

10 l!

l CHAIPSAN HENOP E:

Well, anyway, in the course of i.

11 Yj your question, or j it ' ell me 'f it's better -- could you l

l' l help us see where that wet.id fi.-

No.: would that be a replace-13\\

ment of the dec'sion cnit tracking, or -- because one of the l

l-I#

things I've zee. concerned about is, again ---

o 1 *8 CO.vRI75IONER AHEARNE:

No, it's not.

In fact, when g

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a half thick.

It will end up being much more -- I don't want rl Il j., 3 ll to be too precise, bu: I would say somewheres around I

lo "' i three-eighths.

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(Lauchter.)

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Y Sut no, it wouldn't be a replacement in any way.

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o Ih What it would be is the overall framework in which all of these ilt l

2 l

decision unit objectives would have to be embedded.

They would IlI 3'

have to flow f rcm something.

As Norm says, he's going to have 4

45 to 50 decision units when he finishes.

5 CHAIR'GN HENDRIE:

That's iust fiscal

'80.

We've 1

i 6 !!

got -- how ~cny decision units do we take to run the shop?

I 7-MR. HALLER:

There would be about 70, roughly 60 h' I8l decision units.

Anf what we would try to scoop out is about i

93 rouc.hlv 40 out of that slice, which would encompass the 10 five major program offices for the tracking.

I 11 i CHAIFF.A'; HENDRIE :

But this year's budget is on the i

I 12 i basis cf how many decision units?

13 h,

-,,, 7 nbout., 0.

n.w:...

n r..

o ti 14 >;

MR. GOSSICK:

We're thinking in packages, two or n

m 15 h three packages per unit, you know, at d;.fferent levels, t

j 16,I MR. HAE;ER

There's a current level, there's a

7 minimum level.

IE CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I unde rstand that.

But somehow 19,

I had it fixed in my mind that it was about 110, sc=ething 20 like that.

Good.

I stand corrected.

21 COMMISS!CNER AHEARNE:

See, and this document would s.

22 H te the set -- would be scrt of what the Commission is

2. ring.

L i

23 4 There are overall policies in all cf these areas.

We'd 24 probably end.:p focusing much more On crosscut areas.

n= mew newnm. une.

25.'

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I was just

c. cine. to sav., it i

?

i t.)*

,l J

't

r. e 22 p

54 1

sounds like crosscut.

2 COMMISSIONER AEEARNE:

That's right.

3' CHAIPy_AN HErDRIE:

And I guess if we hadn't had the a

MBOs on the way out, it uculd have been in fact replacing 5

MBOs.

l 6

CO3DIISSIONER AEEAFNE:

But what it reallv has the t

li 7l advantage of doing, it is twofold:

It has, one, the advantage l

8 ll cf allowine. the staff te c.et a set of c.ol;.cv statements bv the

l 9 l!

Commissioners, do they agree with it; and then it also enables I

4 l

10 il the Commission to have scme mere ma]cr input in acvance or the I

i 11 l

hude.e beine. cretared, because the people then put together a 12,

budget, tn= Budget Revie:w Group have a clearer sense of what i

13 q the "cenissioners have de :. Sed on eithe or all of the objec-l 14 tives.

t n'l 15 "

MR. GOSSICK:

Jus t abou; beycnd that point this year.

sj 16 3 because the budgets are already in on the basis of this --

i Ie 17 d COF011SSIONER AEEAF':E:

Recognizing that.. Lee --

bd 15 4 MR. GOSSICK:

Nc, I agree with you.

h 19 CHAI??JC EENDRII:

Now vou arO entitled c some t

20,

cuestions.

That was all in response to m'i question.

L I-21 (

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

_ hank you.

Il F

22 f, Nem, how are vou ec=inc. on c.ettinc. to tne rinal l'

l i

m. o, set of systems?

n d

24 l1.l MR. HALLER:

The fiscal '80 system?

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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes.

i 2

MR. HALLER:

All right.

We are in the process of 1

3,h working a wav, en ~etting the carticular accomplishments v

1 defined and the resources defined for each of the fiscal '80 4

I I:

decision units that we w1_,_,

e trackinc.

Tn.a: 1s no easv 'or.

p

,I 6y One of the things we have found out in this develop-I 7'

ment is that it's a long time between the time that the budgets l

I a ll are put together and the times that people actually sit down

-u 9 dtl and start to decide what it is they're going to do with those l

I i

10 resources.

And it is not very easy to define those acccmplish-t i

11 d ments in a way that's measurable.

i l

I 12 ]

We are trying 'o build on some of the work that has 1

1; [

been done already with the ' 79 decision units, to help us do n

1 14h this transiticn into the '8C crocram.

But it's a substantial Il

'S !!

workload on us.

I this it is going to significantly impac:

le,

our of fice in the months ahead in crder to get this.

And I 1

17 ?

have recently made some intemal reprogramming inside of MFA I

in order to get i substantially higher manpower level on this 18 i

'a 19 S within MPA than what we had as the '79 system was beinc.

n 20 dem 1cped, because I think it's going to be necessary.

F 21 i COM'CSSICNER AEEARNE:

And I would guess that, given i

22 !

he relativelv extensive amount of shuf flinc that is coing 4

i 23 h cn, just first in the sense of reprogrammings, and then

' t, 2.:

second, as Harold has just described, very extensive shuffling --

r J-Eecera' R eporters,19C.

25 l MR. EALLER:

That's correct, trying to pin all this 7

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1 o.l down is cuite difficult.

O 2'

COMMISSIONER AiiEARNE:

In light of that, what's you.*

39 realistic assessment?

Haw are vou going to make the FY system q

4j to start FY '80?

0 l

5j MR. HALLER:

I think for some of the offices we will b

i 6d, probably have a cretty c.ood chance cf makinc. it, at least with l

7 l.

most of the decision units.

For perhaps a couple cf the other

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9e surprise me if we did not have an operable system by the i

10,,

b e c. i n n i n c. of the. year.

i li 11 !

Research might be a good example.

We recentiv had l

12 a number of commer.ts from Saul Levine and his staff cn this I

1 13 l syster and the way that they think it ought to be done, and i

L 14 our people and their peo le have been ge t:.ng together, and I

. i, a

15 '

think.ze've had a lot of development work there.

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and that's one cf the problems we're coping with.

20 ;i CO.AD;ISSIONER AEEARNE:

I would guess to some e:ctent 4

ll i

'i in NRR.vou are a.cing to have to leave a f a :. r a...o u n t cf flexi-l, 22 4 biliev because particularly many of the Lessons Learned

.o 1

23 gi results won' t be coming in antil later on.

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continue tc have the flexibility to readjust.

H 2

MR. HALLER:

That's correct, and there is a lot of o

3 reprogramming, as I say, that's going on.

I 4

MR. GOSSICK:

This was intended in no way to cut I

5; dcwn necessarily flexibility, but to keep track what it is you i

6 do with people and resources an acccmp.1ishments, of what you 4

t 7j get down.

h I

8I COMMISSIONER AEEARNE:

understand.

i 9

MR. GOSSICK:

I would like to add just one comment, 1

1C h that there's been some difficulty with, in the staff This --

o l'

II well, most of the decision units deal with tasks which are, 12 '

I would say, primarily manpower-intensive.

The problem we've 13 l

had in the research area is that there are a lot of dollars,

~

l 14 N but few people.

What this is not intended to do -- it has I

15 no purpose for trying to manage, you know, in detail the 16 '

contract, that is, that which goes on within the labcratory l

17 ', by a given group of pecple.

That's not what this is aimed an.

16 :

They must have their own way of managing their con:racts.

i 19 l What we ' re trying to get here is a capturing, though, n

2G L of whatever it is that gets done as a result of expenditure a

ll 2I ]

of dollars and their expenditure of our own in-hcuse people.

1 22 That is, tha: tends to be a fairly small number, ebviously, n

'i as ccmeared with :&E, where there are 700 people er so.

o 24 But as Norm points out, this is a prchlem we have r* 4dera! Reoorters, Inc. ;,

9 C. l'

.ceen naving in working witn Saul and his people in trying to 1

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.ta 26' 58 i

t a

i 1l make sure that we get this oriented towards what it is supposet t

2 i

to do and not change to try to do scaething else with regard 3l to the detailed management of a given project or contract i

! within a particular laboratory.

/*

I O

5 ;l CHAIPJ.AN HENDRIE:

All right.

I 6:

MR. HALLER:

All right.

The fiscal 80 system, as I

7l it's indicated here -- I want tc be sure that I mention the f

S i!

number 45 to 50 is a hit high.

It'll probably be more li:ce f*

1 1

9 p.

40.

We're not gcing to track some of the decision units

.t 2+

the major offices that aren't worth tracking.

f, 3

II Alsc, the EDC directed yesterday that IP and SP --

l 12 !

CHAIPP.AN HENDRIE:

Actually, I'd put that a differen.t i

i 13 wav, but nevertheless --

n Ii 14h Laughter.)

.i P

15,

COM'CSSIONER GILINSRY:

If it's not worth tracking, d

16 h, s - _ w v _- wn' dw^d.".~:'.

4-Ils 17 j (Lauchter.)

n M l1 l

MR. HALLER:

Let me explain that a little bit more.

19 There are some decision.: nits, like -- I may characterice them a

22 1 as an overhead decision unit or prcgram support part of the 21 decision unit.

q 22i CHAIPMAN HENDRIE:

The one that's ac MFA is going i, l.

22 0 tc keen track of these decision units.

He doesn': Olan tc h

e ed '!

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l MR. HALLER:

What I was going to say is IP and SP

~~

I.

• I 4-Mr. Gossick has indicated he would like us to make attempt to n.

i 3

include these programs in this tracking system as well.

That 4ll sould ccme sometime during fiscal

'80.

We could not do that l

C '

i in tne ceginning.

dn 6'

What we hope to have short1v after we cet our l

r congressional appropriation is a revised operating plan wha.ch pj 8

this year would be based on the cecisien units themselves, and t9) actually the printouts and the matcrial here would be the i

I!

10 operating clants, so to speak; and than that would be the way

.I 11 i we would cc it in the ruture.

2:

There wouldn't be a necessity to prepara a special 13 operating plan. as Len Barry and his people did this year, to la acccmmodate the Commissicn's re. quest for that.

This would just n

i 1c '. ce an automat;.c initialication,

- vou will, of the system.

,I 4

16 L

We are, of course, planning to hr.ve this thing as a

l

automated as we can get it.

The automation will come slowly.

M' We will plan to have a lot of manual work at the beginning, but I9 we hope to get it en the computers so. hat we don't spend our 20 people-time doing cutting anc pasting.

4' l, -

I want the people to be thinking and doing that, and 22 le: the ccrputer do the numbers.

e 23 Finally, I would like to amplify one thing that both 2

you and Commissicner Ahearned mentioned, and

>.at's this prograr

,s Sedef a' R eDO'Terl, Inc. ;l

-gi.

Crosscut thing, l

-y nG n

],'j L t "

s

59 l1 I[

We feel it's essential it's essential, if the

,i 2 h Commission want these program crosscuts -- and I believe that a

3 "'

is a good way to present the material to the Corission --

n 4

4Y that the Cc=ission should cive us firm cuidance on what those a

h 5

crosscuts ought to be.

t 6i hd I notice that Commissioner Ahcarne did send out i.

,i'[ a memo just recently again, which referred back to this PPEG.

L 8

And if nothing else, that docunent at least defines some of 9]themajorprogramareasthat at least we and the Staff thought i

I2 would be us use.

And if those are the ones the Commission i

I 11 1 would like us to keep track of, we would be han.o.v. to do that.

l.

I2 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

What's PPPG?

(

l I2 AIE. EALLER:

It stands for Policy Planning and

..N

i Progra=ing Guidance, and this is a document -- there was a e

.S,i i

SECY paper on it that was sent up in March, SECY 79-205, and d

]4 'i this is the guidance that the Staff has currently --

1 1' j CCGS*ISSICNER AHEARNE:

That's the one.

'c y

MR. HALLER:

Yes, the Staff is currently using that 1^', as part of guidance for the planning of the _rY 'S1 to'85 20 budget.

..2,

But it also does articulate the major program areas i

)

e

,,,"6 that the Staff at least proposed, that the Comission might

~3 wish to track.

And these could replace what are now the o

o e,

e.

/w

=,,on, n eoonen. i nc. *,

the e acencv-wide ob,ectives and become :1 s kev orocrams that 9 ::: n Cc=ission is interested in.

H 5 5 U-s,!

4

-13 61

~

l 1

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

My impression is that the public

,I

, service announcement was sponsored by 3"

(Laughter.)

4l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Well, I think -- memory staggers, 53 but it seems to me that the things tha*_ you were hitting there

i, 6 'd were the

- certainly the broad summary of them were the major I

'i7 'j program areas that one would expect to see and that are fcr 2hthemost part tabulated now under either the MPO book, and so 9'

on.

i 1

10 i And I think, clearly, these, for whatever system we 11 4' u se -- why these,

indeed, are crosscut items.

Now there may be 12 some others, as you go down the line, but I think, to the j.,.

1. L extent that it's possible to indicate any guidancs sort of off

',I

] '4 1] the top of our heads, why those major

- as best as I can

,e you know, they can hardly be recall them, they are not 14

d controversial, you know.

l 1 You sav what is a major.orocram in the a9e:cv?

g 12 1 Waste Disposal.

h 19 MR. HALLER:

Okay.

That's one.

ii, 9 0 "!

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Licenses.

i

• 1',

MR. HALLER:

Yes.

f

^2 3

Why don't I go to the second slide.

~

u,' ' ' '

(Slide.)

F 24 0 Just as a verv cuick review, these are the dec'sion geene newn.n. inc. '

,e1

! cnits that we are presently tracking in the FY '79 pilot

^~

-7

'I) a J.J v

62 4.1 4

0.

O l

I program.

2(

These decision units amount to approximately a 6.1 3

l quarter of the agency's manpower resources.

h d

Just to give you a feel for how much is covered under i

5; this part of the program, when we would get the 40-unit --

i 1

6 40 decision units into the system, it wou_d amcunt to more I

h 7 l like two-thirds cf the agencyis manpower resourc es and nearly

.i e1' all cf the agency's dollar resources and program support.

a P

9 Now I need not dwell on these.

This was simolv an 1

10 '

illustrative list, but we do routinely now prepare printouts t

11 O on each of these.

And like I say, they are forwarded to the 12 s Commission in conjunction with the FAR.

o

't 13 "

~h is.

1 What we thought it might be useful to do thou9 o

14 i to trovice.vou a sam. ole c:_ One or ne.crintouts wn ch iust i

a l

15 happens to be che casework one, which was the first one on lc 14t....< s

__s_.

3 And although I do not have the slide for that, that i

i: '

handout was provided, and I can walk you through that very quickly.

Or if you prefer, why

- just have it for your 20 information, and we can leave it.

n

'"1, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Well, my impression is that it n

P

'2 o!

might be difficult to take a rapid walk through that.

One u

,h

"~H might find oneself --

MR. GOSSICK:

Well, we -- if I can summarize very

.e.;ece,a: Reconen. i,e. !

-r

", ' briefly, the first chart shows the overall decision unit, the

',,I i

t

-l N.)

63 ji 5 q

1 I

I i budgeted NOPS, and then the actual, i'i' 2 !

And then the following charts break it down by the

.i el 3 4 six planned acccmplishments that are in that decision unit, i.

I 4,i and c.ives.you details all the wav down to case names, if you l'

5 !j I want.

ii

,' l i

6l And then the details that vou see

- v.ou are right, y

'l 7

we could spend quite a long time in going through this.

q!

8, Ncrmally, at the PARS, we spend probably an hour or 9 ] so on a given PAR and go into these only on the ones -- the l

IC h intent here is not to c.o thrcach these in detail everv. time g

!i il d they come up, but we are looking for the ones that are out of I

12 i kilter.

i 12,

And if you see ones where the budgeted and the li

.4 lad actuals are pretty close together, and no particular hangup, l

15 L we don't bother with it.

But if got one that is badly off, i

16 '

where you see nothing being expended rea?.ly, you want to know 17 ? why, where did the resources go?

18 Cr if you see the things, the resources being

,9 but ncthing being accomplisne,. --

expencec, 20 '

CHAIREAN HE"DRIE:

What does it mean when the a

i 21 budgeted man-years don't represent 100 percent?

Il 22 Y MP U M LE R :

Well, budceted, to date, was -- are you

.I i

23 a looking at the top?

!i 24 -

CHAIRMAN HENDPIE:

Yes.

>F.eerei a eoc.rms, inc.

25 MR. EALLER:

Well, that first one just indicates that n

-, q [s

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- 6 6..

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for the full year, they would expect to spend about 160 In 2 ': professional man.v. ears on case work.

And budgeted, to date, I

il 3

they would only have spent about 87 had they been following i

4 !

kind of a c. roc _ressive straight line -- you know, expenditure l

5 through the year.

I ',

li 6 ',I In fact, what this data shows is that less has been i

7 lI, s p e n ton that decision unit than what was originally projected.

o i

8i CHAIRMAN MENDRIE:

Go back and do that first par-9 0 again, the dif ference between the 159 man-years, budgeted --

i 1

10 i,;

MR. HALLER:

That's for the whole decisiun unit, o

11 d throughout the entire year.

Ecwever, as of April 30, had they 12 l had

- NRR had been spending; according to the budget projec-t 1

13 j ziens, tney would have spent approximately S7 man-years on la case work.

However, cur manpower systems show that NRR has 1

15 ' underspant in this particular decision unit.

The manpower q

16 h info:=ation we have indicates they spent about 75 man-years.

17,

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18 ' bit more than half a year, so that if they have been followir.g 19 the normal budget -- budgeted amount, on April 30th, they woul:

20 ' have spent a little mere than half of their r

-.sw hkun 21 "

CHAIRM.'N HENDRIE:

I would exoect the actual column e

22 to come up a place corresponding to the date.

23 'l MR. HALLER:

That's one of the things --

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25 if 160 are budgeted, whv. does it show --

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I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Show the 160 is budgeted for 2

the whole year.

?.il 3H But if you are -- sav. v.ou're :n.ing to take a i

I 4'

snapshot, and vou're trying to find out -- well, let's just 5

s a v. v.ou're looking at funds.

If you were scheduled to spend 6:

$120 million throuc.hout the whole v. ear, at a regular slope, I7 F you'd be spend _ng at S2 million a month, S10 million a year.

i 2i Let's take a snapshot halfway through, six months.

i d

il 91 It wor za be irteresting for you to know whether cr ntt you ol l

10d had spent about 560 million

to that point, because on a al' II I regular budgeted progression, halfway through, 60 million is 12 !

what you would have planned to spend.

f l'

13 L And if.vou had scent 80, you would know you're in p

II 14!, trouble.

i IS,

CHA1RMAN HENDR E :

True.

1 i

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COMMISSIONER AEEARNEi This is the same kind of a

'F n

17 9 thing.

This is now people though.

This is the people that

'i 18 h you have now -- you had budgeted to spend abcut 159 man-years 19 of effort during the whole year on casework.

20 Now, if you did that on a recular basis, ycu could

.i 21.'

then figure out, well, on April 30th, if you were keeping track n

il 22 ', of vcur normal effer in casework, how many min-years should u

il 22 h you have allecated up to then.

That's 87.4 87.35.

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It turns cut that as of April 30 they had spent a

ce EcGeral R eDortef 5. in-.I i

25,. less than _ hat.

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4 MR. HALLER:

Right.

h 2l And then as one goes back, one can sie, by use of b

3U this, which accomplishments have been overspent and so forth, d

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Why is the progran support i

5 MR. HALLER:

The budget -- they budgeted, they 6'

coligated very early in the year.

1 el i

7 MR. GOSSICE:

After the end of the following o

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• the task-planned accomplishments -- you would find breakcuts.

9 out where it didn't get spent.

.I O-10 MR. EALLEF:

SeeI we put that on contract early.

11 1' CHAIR >'AF HENDRIE:

All right.

12 So the X's column row in all cases ir extpected to l'

move through the year from left to right, and on September 30th

~

v 14l i

to have arrived precisely at 100 percent?

-l 5

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Well, it will, by definition.

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MR. GOSSISK:

Not necessarilv.

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.inAesS you redo it, unless

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'o MR. GOSSICK:

You also may have an obligation plan

'O' which says "I want to c.et mv conev fullv oblic.ated bv. a r

i certain date."

li en COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Oh, you may arrive there early, 23h but by September 30, by definition, it's going to be acout i

9 ~4 leva.1.

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JR. GCSSICK:

Yes.

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t 67

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CO.WISSIONER GILINSKY:

Could I ask Ha cid the

,, I, questions, somewhat tutoria_?

A l

Harold, how does -- how do these systems whic.. set 4

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4fobjectiveforlicense review affect the performance of the 5f reviewers?

I guess I would like to be assured that the i

h 6 ;, reviews are driven bv safety considerations and that these 7

systems are simply used to keep track of what's going on and 1

1, h

8.

reallocating manpower as necessary.

,, q; MR. DENTON:

These printonts are made form the cards d

h 10j that the employees turn in; in other words, the amount of time o

if IIA that they spent on the case every month.

l 12 They are not influencing the course of the work i:

1 13h throudh the case.

Gad we have met several times to try to get a tie-in on that top row so that it's not menatrmically in

'l 15 l incrse sing sun, because we really need

• .c tie the Blue _I ook 16 ; accomplishments and the task and the level of wcrk more into

,_a

'l just the total expenditure of manpower.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :

I hope it's conatomically 19 increasing.

It needn't be at uniform rate.

20 (Laughter.1 a

21 i MR. DENTON:

I use them to see if we have about 2'y' spent the amount c: manpower in that cecision unit that we 1

22 'l budgeted for, but they don't influence case by case by -cc e.

i 2'

acw, in the SEP program, if you look at that cne, a Sece-a. Repo~ vs, Inc. ';

25 g you'il fi,,d we haven't spent nearly the level of ef f ort that we

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68 1

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. 10 I; had hoped to spend.

So it tells me my organization wasn't P

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-J spending as much effort in SEP as I had hoped to.

3 !.'l In the new reallocation, we have given those 3 2 l

4i l

pacple whatever that we wanted specificO ly into the SEP 5 ll program, so they're now available to spend on casework.

p 6

Do it doesn't really influence particular cases,

'l7 ! except insofar as the total expenditures of the manpower.

end t7 i

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-: mte 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

If I can make a point, Vic,

)

I would think in fact it should incretse the adequacy of the 2

i i'

3 review, because the pressure is to have the review -- any I

pressures that might exist to have the reviews cc:tp le te d, this

'l

.c,, l is a technio.ue to make sure you're puttinc. the people onto Ii the effort.

6 7

CO!O11SSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, it helps to keep track

't 2,

of what's going on.

I think that's acod, and I think we want i

t 9i to have tight management, and.vou don't want oeople working i

0 10

ineffectively-i 11 i Eut at the same

.ime, one doesn't want reviewers 12 to think that thev have cot to :reet certain deadlines, c c:nc i

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what may.

i

< h CC.v_v!SSIONER AHEARNE

But this tracking is --

1 o

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15 '

they're suptosed to be working on it.

i 16 CO!O'ISSIONER GILINSKY:

The point is to ce able to y

1 0

17,

reallocate resources to accomplish what you want to do.

i

.i 18 j MR. HALLER:

In other words, if you have more work

.' l 19 to do, in casework, at least this might give you a hint of

1

' O ".,

how much more manpower you have to reprogram onto that work.

\\

21 It was, for example, useful to me when we did this little i

m i, analysis for the 3RG that we briefed you on earlier with u

I 23 l

. gard to the 100.

I f cund this particular printout quite

'l h

2. f helpful in helping to understand that.

d

. Feecc aemners. inc. i 25 j MR. GCSSICK:

There are few management systems that

)

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I dare volunteer a vote from the users or the people that it j

acclies te.

But I would volunteer here this morninc, 2j with I

3:

the possible exception of one dissent we have alked about in i

i I

the research area.

But ' think you will find all the other 4 l; l

pr gram directors feel it can be useful to them.

51 i

6l, Ue have made it very clear that an objective of this J

is, it's not coing to work unless it's useful to work in i7j manac.ing.vour business.

And if anvboev wants to soer.k on ylI that, co ahead.

i 9

I MR. LEVIDE:

I just would like to say, I have no 1C,

d 11 quarrel with the system.

It's ju?* *lat tne ',ystem was l

I,t desicned to tra n mancower, and we have a different croblem.

il' 13,,

We're geing tc cry to develop the right kind of system for it.

o 14[p CHAI?E N EENDRIE:

I must ray, I can recall some no la-U o., :ne ac.onies o_,orecaring cuccets bac.x in tne c.ays wnen.-

1

' h i6 was down here, in which I hac to deal with branch responsi-t 17 j bilities, particular technical specialties, jobs, and the f+

II 18 i!

review Se?CS200 W thin those things.

And you tende? then to f

I l e.. '

hulld up your bc.dget in an org inizationally -- organized on f,

ft a

2.:

che basis cf the crcani::ation a nd the task vou had to do.

1 0 And then we got ready to go to the Budget Review Committee, or 1 -l 4

2, cerhaps not there, but certainly tc the Com:r.iscion and to the 2

i 73 j CMS.

Why, it was these broad sweeps across the vhole direc-lI s.

II it torate cf licensinc, in which all your organizanicnal base i

t ce-F eder al ReporterL inc. tg u il nu~1ers had scmehow to be re:ast to fit all its sweetinc.

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catetories that were, in those days, sometimes put together j

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to help the force of the presentation more than anythinc else.

2, 3 'il And it made it tough to '. rack de line back down il e

from final nunbers cresented at the hic. hest summarv. levels, 4,

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t f 11 w it back down into the supporting base.

Tht=re was 5

alwavs an aconizine problem in trvine to take people down 6

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through that transition.

7 It does seem to me that this system has -- at least i

g has the potential for croviding a much more direct -- that in 3s t

a much more direct and reasonable fashion.

And maybe we'll

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1. v cet used to thinkinc-- us: naturallv in decision unit terms

,1 from an ciganizaticnal management standpoint.

It may be -- I 12

), j can at least.see :: has pctential for bcing a very useful way a'l o

ja[

to handle it.

p. H MR. HALI,ER:

I would 111:e :: nahe just one other a,

16 cctment, Mr. Chairman.

I am dedicated to at least have our

,7,

- out, f vou will, excess management systems, office stamo I,

because : don't want :c maintain them, with the scarce rescurme j g.,

19 I have, any =cre than the people who are supporting them in a

20 j the other offices want to give infcrmation into such a syster.

P 21 l! So I certainly don' want this to be a proliferation of 22 systems.

I I

Sc we are coing to sna p out the excess work, I

2, a.

excess ones.

And I think it has werked fairlv well.

0 Neders' Reporters, Inc. '

CHAIPEN HENDRIE:

Well, when we get to a point 4.e n

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1 l where we're tracking sufficiently well across the decision i

units so that the M30 system can be declared to be superceded, 2 li l,,

l' 3e why, maybe we can arrange to come down here at 5:00 o' clock, 4

have tea and cookies, put down an asbestos map and burn my 5

copy of the M30 notebook.

How about that right here?

l 6

(Laughter.)

l't CHAIPM N HENDRIE:

Have pictures, invite the press.

7 jll i

8 O'r.ay.

Anir other questions and comments?

Io 94

'No response. )

o

,l 10.

Chav.

Very cocc.

2.

tn..inx a userui ciscussion, even 11 l thouc.h we didn' t manac.e to c.c through the detail you would i

12 i like.

But I trust you will work with the financial peccle 1

13 h with vigor this after.. con.

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+-8 14 I

(Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m.,

the hearing was adjourned.

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J.) U

s FY 1979 FIllAf1CIAL REVIEW MAY 1979 Q MAJOR BRIEFIf1G ELEMErlTS

- Financial & Program Analysis

- Till Costs

- Requirements

- Sources

- Reprogramming g BRIEl-ED BRG, set!IOR STAFF & EDO O

0STS, OCL1GAriO:25, C0:01ITMEf1TS, TRAVEL 0 OPERATI!;G.PLArtS/ MAJOR PLAti:1ED ACCOMPLISHMENTS Q TMI FOR 1979 - 1980 TMI PART OF 1981 BUDGET REVIEW Q REPROGRAMMIf;G

- !/1 Approved

- 42 House Approp-iations wants to see 1979 TMI before approving Authorization - One month has passed - constructive approval

[

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- #3 In concnrrence chain - to Commission today

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To ; UJ MAGEE F R '. T.

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' ', e t OUTLINE FOR GRIEFING ON lNf FY 1979 FINANCIAL REVIEW e

MAJOR ITEMS TO BE COVERED

- Financial & Program Analysis

- TNI Costs Requirements for Fund

- Sources of Funds

- Reprograming Required e

DISCUSSION OF BRIEFING FOR BRG, SENIOR STAFF & EDO e

DISCUSSION OF COSTS, OBLIGATIONS, COMMITMENTS, AND TRAVEL REQUIREMENTS e

DISCUSSION OF OPERATING PLANS / MAJOR PLANNED ACCOMPLISnM NTS e

DISCUSSION OF TMI REQUIREMENTS FOR 1979 - 1980 (PART OF 1981 BUDGET REVIEW) e REPROGMMMING PAPERS

- #1 Approved

- #2 House Appropriations wants to see 19).' TMI before approving Authorization - One month ha. passed -

constructive approval

- #3 In concurrence chain - to Comission today SECY NOTE: Vu-graphs from Controller expected late 6/6/79.

7 1

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DECISION UNIT TRACKIllG SYSTEM PILOT PROGRAM 13 DECISION UrlITS IN FY 1979 MONTilLY UPDATES TO OFFICES ROUTIf1E PAR BRIEFIrlGC REVIEWIflG LESS0flS LEARflED FY 1980 SYSTEM GOALS 45-50 DECISI0fl UtilTS OPERATIrlG PLANS WITI:IN 2 M0flTHS OF C0flGRESSI0fl?l APPROPRI AT10ft PLANNIrlG FOR AUTOMATED REPORTS PLANNING FOR PROGRA!1 CROSSCUTS u:

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