ML19224C610
| ML19224C610 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 05/29/1979 |
| From: | Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7907030366 | |
| Download: ML19224C610 (16) | |
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UNITED STATES 4
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMIESION
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May 29, 1979 O F F '-
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SECAETARY
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CC: MISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF :
Discussion of Testimony Before the House Foreign Affairs Comm' tee February 7, 197S Pursuant to the Commission's Regu2.ations implementing the Government ih the Sunshine Act
'.0 CFR 9.10 8 (d) ), th Commission, on the advice of the Ger:eral Counsel, deter.. '. rad that the subject meeting record, a transcript, should be made available to the public in its entirety.
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beow Samuel J. Chilk %
Secretaryog'theCommission 271 344 PM 76s(%e
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~i 5, C/.. Transcript of Proceedings
/ NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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DISCUSSION OF TESTIMONY BEFORE THE HOUSE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE (Closed to Public Attendanc'e)
N G ti. n.11 271 345 Pages 1 - 15
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Prepared by:
C. H. Brown Office of the Secretary l
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1 1
1 UNT.TED STATES OF AMERIC4 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMIS.3 ION 3
Discussion of Testimony Before The House ForeL n Affairs Committee J
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(Closed to Public Attendance) 6 7
Chairman's Conference Room 1717 H S tr eet, N.W.
8 Washington, D. C.
9 Wednesday, February 7, 1979 10 11 The Comaission met, pursuant to notice at 3:20 p.m.,
12 Joseph Hendrie, Chairman of the Commission, presiding.
13 PRESENT:
14 Chairman Hendrie 15 Commissioner Gilinsky Commissioner Kennedy I
16 Commissioner Bradford Commissioner Ahearne 17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 L. Bickwit 19 S. Chilk C. Stoiber 20 B.
Snyder S.
Kent 21 R. McOsker D.
Hassell 22 B. Applebaum J. Stephens 23 J. Brown 24 25 l
271 346
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PROCEEDINOS 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The first thing I have to do is i
3 ask the Commissioners if they will please join me in voting to 4
I hold a short notice meeting this af ternoon on the subject of S
the testimony to be given tomorrow by the General Counsel on-6 the subject of legislation dealing with relations with the 7
people on Taiwan.
8 (A chorus of "Ay.es")
9 CHAIR mi HENDRIE:
So ordered.
j.0 Secondly, the Counsel has recornmended that we close 11 the me'eting under the 9(b) proposition and I would recommend to 12 you that we vote to close on that basis with the understanding I
13 that the transcript, in due t ne, the transcript will be i
14 reviewed for classified or other material that has a more i
15 permanent basis for withholding, and the balance of the 16 transcript would then be placed in the Public Document at such 17 time as the legislation in question has either been signed into 18 law or clearly pitched out of the 96th Congress, you know,- the 19 sort of thing or time scale that we have assigned to this sort 20 of discussion in tne past.
21 COMMISSIONER
- t. 'ARNE:
9 (b) is what?
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Premature release.
It would be likely 23 to frustrate the aims of the agency.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Given that subject, isn' t there
,5 a possibility of classified information in it?
271 34/-
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: There is a strong possibility of--
2 depending on where the discussion goes, but there is a strong 3
possibility of classified iniormation.
It is a foreign policy in which there is great sensitivity and I think a part of the 5
discussion here very well could be class:.fied.
6 (A chonis of " Ayes")
7 So ordered..
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So all agreed?,
8 Very good, let me ask Len to simply -- the reason 9
that he has asked if we could have the short meeting, -and I hope 10 it needn't take long, is that he feels that the Commissioners ought 11 l
to recognize sort of where the central core of whatever remarks 12 that he and Carl Stoiber might make tomorrow, what that central 13 core is just so that we are aware of it.
14 I have already thought about it and decided for myself 15 I don't have a bit of a problem with it, I think ic is just 16 about right, but I think you all ought to know.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could"someone fill me in a? to 18 why he is going up and tes tirying.
I understood tuat Forti 2r 19 had asked and I thought our answer was going to be we prefer 20 to have Q and A's.
So what lead to the actual -- Len going up 21 to testifying?
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
LC-n, between yta and Steve and 23 Carl, can somebody outline the circumstances?
I think we haven' t actually advised then 25 we are coming yet.
We have told them that we were thinking of 271 348
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1 polling the Commission and I think Ed had advised them of this,
and had indicated that the four of you had wanted the General first preference was for written --]I 3
Counsel would go up.
Your i
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I did not understand the range 5
of choices, I thought it was a question of between the Commission 1
6 going and General Counsel's office going.
If Q and A's are 7
a possibility, I would be all for it.
8 MR. KENT: Well,.they Fave.. asked us for someone and. hey 9
have on their agenda an NRC representative.
].0 CHAIRMM HENDRIE:
In principal, the agency can tell 11 the House Foreign Affairs Cccmittee that, "No, we are not going 12 to send anybody up, and you can ask us questions if you like."
13 I prog.se to you that we. let the Councel go.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But you can do more than that, 15 Joe.
You can say that we don' t think it is really appropriate, 16 what we have to offer, but we would be delighted to answe: question 17 for the record.
i 18 I grant that the closer we get tc the actual time of 19 the testimony, the less that is an appropriate thing to do, but 20 I just wanted to understaad why it was that option which seemed 21 to be a perfectly acceptable one to at least tr(, has been 22 rejected.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: The committee can always say, ne, 24 we don't want to bother you, 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's rlgrt.
271 349
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1 COMMISSIONER NENNEDY: It seems to me a perfectly respectable staternt and given our situation in the govern::ent and cur 3
role in whatever occurs, for us to say this is a matter which j
4 should be dealt with between committee and the Executive 3 ranch ---.
1 5
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Oh, I see, that's the statement. l 6
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
-- to the extent that we 7
may be helpful in answering any specific questions the committee 8
may have bearing upon our. responsibilities in export licensing.
9 We would be very pleased to provide answers for the~ record.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's what I thought was most 11 appropriate.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
Isn't that a reasonable 13 posture for us to take?
Do you think so?
14 COM1ISSIONER BRAuFORD:
I think so.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What's the matter, don' t you want to 16 go to the hearing?
17 ML. BICKWIT:
I just briefly wanted to outline my 18 reservations about going, but it looks like it may not be 19 necessary.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No.
You are going to have to do 21 that, because what we are going to have to decide here, we are 22 going to have a decision here which allows the thing to work 23 either way without the need for the Commission to get toger.her 24 again, becacse it is gcing to happen too fast.
25 If the majority would prefer to try a Q and A proposition 271 350
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I will join you in saying let us launch Congressional and the 2
General Counsel at the committee staff and let us see it that j
3 is en acceptable proposition.
If it isn't and there is harumphing 4
and they say, produce a bcdy, damn it, why I must say I feel I
5 compelled to produce a body, and I think it is better that 6
the Counsel's office go than the Commissioners go under the
-i 7
circumstances.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But does dae majority of us 9
feel that if it is possible it vould be more appropriate just' l
10 to do-it that way?
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I do.
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I do.
i 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARME:
I do.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
T:
we've got a majority.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay. Then perhaps Congressional 16 ought to start trying to do that right now.
17 MR. KENT:
We ray have a problem right now because I 18 think they are in the middle of a hearing still.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think we need him for another 20 15 minutes or so while we
-- I would li.'. him to stay f or
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21 another 15 minutes while we clear up the rest of the meeting.
22 Now, against the possibility chat they say they would 23 really like to have a genuine warm body cr wo representing the 24 agency up there, then it think Counsel's office goes as they 25 have been planning and now, Len, I think you ought to outline for 271 351
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us what you think lies, 'in spite of whatever careful words you 2
and Carl would choose, lies at the core of what you have to say.
3 MR. BICKWIT:
A woul.d go up and give watered down 4
testimony on what our views were on th4= issue of tie need for 5
the legislation, pointing out that you have not met on it and 6
that you have not adopted a position on it.
7 However, the.nemo that we furnish to you does take 8
as a bottom line position.and on the basis of what we now know, 9
we can advise you that these exports would be legally, permissible.
10 I think you have to assume that if we are up there 11 presenting our watered testimony that they will hone in on this 12 and eventually we will have to let them know that that is our 13 view, and maybe even make our analysis available to them unless 14 we want to incur a great deal of wrath, which I don' t think 15 you would want us to do.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I think that's a rea nnable 17 thing to do in any event., because if the Congress w uts those 18 exports to go forward, it ought not to be left in a position with 19 legislation that wouldn' t permit it.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Dcn't get me wrong, I would expect 21 that that would be one of the questions that we would answer 22 for the record, and I would expect it to be answered that way.
23 It just seems to me inappropriate to put the General Counsel of 24 the NRC up on the line in front the Committee.
That was my 25 concern.
271 352
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It is not a question of our i
advocating the exports or suggesting they ought not to go.
3 It is a completely neutral proposition, only that if the
' Congress in its wisdom wants them to go forward and expects 5
that they will, there is gcing to have to be language which is O
going to make that possible, and right now, we don't think that 7
language exists in the bill as we have seen it.
It seems to 8
me that's ---
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, it sounds like. the mos t 10 helpful thi..g is to tell them straight out.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes, I would think so.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well ---
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
And let them decide that, it is 14 a question for them to decid'e.
They ought not to be,by 13 inadvertence, mislead, you know.
16 MR. BICKWIT:
I can see two down sides to coming out D
' tith that information tomorrow.
18 One is some potentially adverse diplomatic consequences 19 which we may not havt to incur.
It might be possible for the 20 Commission, if this is an extremely diplomatically hot matter, 21 for the Commission simply to stall on this matter, and to 22 ask questions of the Executive Branch back and forth for quite 23 some time until this legislation is passed.
24 To go up there and present either the Gener_.1 25 Counsel's view or the Ccmmission's view that these exports can' t 271 353
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go under our act, that they will not go under our act or suggest 2
- that, could conceivably be a slap in saying that they could 3
go anyway.
4 COMMISSIONER VENNEDY:
But if the bill up there is 5
deficient An diis respect, and they believe, as the Executive 6
Branch believes that it is sufficient, Congress ought to --
7 the Congress, then, would assume, unless we say something to 8
the contrary that we see it that way, and then dhe Congress 9
would assume, presumably, it would assume that we would be 10 able to act ---
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It seems to me the worst of all 12 Possible worlds is to have everyone go through dhis entire process 13 thinking they have fixed everything up and for us to come along 14 and say " Carl otoiber thinks,"
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Sorry about that.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Has the Executive Branch been 17 informed of your legal analysis?
18 MR. BICKWIT:
No.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So this would also be the first 20 tbr dry would hear that we have concluded their ---
21 MR. BICKWIT:
We have specifically chosen not to 22 inform them of rhat for this reason, for the reason that it is 23 an expense that may not be a major expense, but it may be one 24 that just doesn't have to be incurred, that's at the expense of 25 slapping the people on Taiwan.
271 354
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COMMISSIONEP GILINSKY:
How do you see it being dealt I
with, somehow through the question and answer process, somehow ---;
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MR. BICKWIT:
One possible scenario would be that i
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we just keep asking questions and getting answers and then when 5
the bill goes through the bill patches things up.
The bill-as 6
draf ted, our first look at it pretty 'well sorts out the problem.
i 7
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are you saying that ---
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE.
We are all for the bill, righ" 9
COMMISSIONER 12NNEDY:
Oh, I thought you were saying 10 that the bill was insufficient?
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No, no.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We all thought so.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So what w are saying is that 14 under existing law it wouldn't work and so a bill is needed if 15 you want to do it.
16 COMMISSIONER MNEDY:
Oh, so that's a different 17 question.
13 CHAIRMAN EENDRIE: So they will be up there, and if 19 they have to go they will be expressing the thought that their 20 view is that the bill is highly desir.cle and that indeed, 21 without it there are some difficult.ies with things and so on.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEAIciE:
I don't think they can be 23 expressing necessarily the view tha: it is highly desirable.
24 It is highly desirable if.
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They don't even have to say that.
271 355
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1 mey could say only that it is our judgment, that the bill, if 2
enacted as drafted would allow us to make affirmative findings, 3
other f actors taken into account and that would be it.
MR. STOIBER:
That would resolve the issue of whether 5
the Agreement for Cooperation is still a reliable one_ and 6
whether or not we could accept assurances from this other 7
entity whatever it turned out to be, if it is debatable.
8 It is not whether those assurances werc adequate with all other 9
things considered.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's a different question.
11 That's the NNPA.
12 COMM[SSIONER AHEARNE:
Now, it would be correct, would 13
, it not if they asked, have you tested this legal analysis against 12 the views of the Executive Branch, for example, and the answer 15 would be?
14 l MR. BICKWIT: The answer is, not entirely.
The answer 17 !.
1+.
what we would propose to you is that the questions to the I
18 Executive Branch be addressed until these matters can he cleared 19 up.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If they ask the question: have 21 you given this analysis to the Executive Branch and I think you 22 said no.
So the next question would be, why?
23 MR. BICKWIT:
The real answer is that we don' t know 24 what the Comnission thinks of the analysis.
25 CHAIRMAN HENERIE. They have just given it to the 271 356
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Commission, when, a few days ago ---
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It just reiterates the point 3
that at this s tage --
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is quite early.
You know, 5
Commissioners like to feel that they have b Td a chance to think 6
about things before it is all over town.
7 However, let II.a reiterate that that is a large 8
aggressive cammittee, or I, at least have had that impression 9
from my linited contact with it.
If somebody pins you down at 10 the table there, you will have to say what you think.
That 11 will be what the memo says, and furthermore, if they want to 12 know where this is written down, is it written down any place, 13 why can' t we have a copy, why I will propose to stall them 14 on it. Go ahead and give them the damn thing.
15 MR. BICKWIT:
I understand.
1C CHAIRMAN HENCRIE:
Just make it clear that the 17 Commission hasn' t had a chance yet to act on it and think about la it.
Tell them.
19 MR. BICKWIT:
Okay, but the first point I was making 20 is that it might be possible to get through this ordeal on 21 Taiwan without letting it be known that the Nuclear Regulatory 22 Commission has a legal problem.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don't think that's a good idea, 24 frankly.
25 COMMISSICNER AHEARNE:
I thought we had sort of said 271 357
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1 that to the State Department already.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, not exactly.
3 MR. STOIBER:
Well, that meeting we had on the t
3rd it was emphasized pretty strongly.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Shouldn't you tell'the Executive 6
Branch what your thinking is, that you are likely -- you know --
7 if there is any chance of y?ur going up there and laying it 8
before the Cong:
's.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, you'd better tell State.
10 MR. BICKWIT:
I guess our first option, what we were 11 considering suggesting to you, before this came along, was 12 that you just meet on the question, decide whether you buy our 13 analysis and then if co, just keep. asking questions of the 14 Executive Branch.
15 Now, if you want to come out publically and deny these 16 licenses, do you want to come out puclically and say we think L7 these licenses are legally impermissible, of course you can do 18 it, but the question is what really gets you, and could it 19 conceivably cost the country something.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Len, isn't the purpose of the 21 Administration's bill to make legally permissible a grean many 22 things that right now technically are not.
1 23 MR. BICKWIT: That's right.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
This is only one c; many.
The 25 reacon for the legislation itself.
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1 MR. SICKWIT: 'What they say, what the Administation 2
'I argues in sending up the bill is that these already are i
3 pera.is sible, these exports are permissible and this is 4
legislation simply to make it crystal clear that they are i
5 permissible.
We would be taking a directly contrary view.
4 6
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: There is another question that 4
7 may come up and that is --
Is this going to be a closed hearing 8
that the Foreign Relations Committee is holding?
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No.
J.0 MR. BICKWIT:
This is headlines.
i 11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: This is with the lights and the TV 12 cameras and the whole bit.
13 MR. BICKWIT:
Now, the second reservation I have, 14 and I think this is the one you were relating to, to get the 15 General Counsel's office up there saying this is our advice 16 to the Commission and when asked what does the Commission think 1.7 about it, say we haven' t the slightest idea.
This does not 13 create an effective presentation for the agency.
19 COMMISSIONER AH2ARNE:
Absolutely not.
And that's 20 why my advice would be, as I thought I had when the issue came 21 up the first time is to tcll the Committee that this is really 22 not something that the Commission has addressed, that we can' t 23 send anyone up to give a Commission position on this, but we 2;
are willing to answer for the record.
I don't know, at this 25 stage, whether that is even possih.e or not.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
One could say, when doing that, 2
it seems to me, however, that our own reading the bill 3
would confirm the legalities of issuance of li.
ses, all other 4
considerations having been met. From that perspective the 5
committee should understand that we do see the bill in that 6
light.
7 MR. BICKWIT:
"We" meaning the General Counsel's of fice?
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And the dif ficulty' is and it 10 certainly ought to be made clear to the committee when we ask them, 11 whether the questions for the record would be acceptable, and 12 also, I think, if he goes up, it is very clear he is not speaking 13 for the Commission.
14 MR. BICKWIT:
And if they want answers frca the 15 Commission, the best procedure is to go through the record 16 procedure.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, that's right.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay, good.
Do we know what we 19 are going to do?
Contingency plans and all.
20 I thank you very much.
21 (Whereupon, the meetil.g was adjourned in the abcVe 22 entitled matter and the Commis.= ion moved on to other business. )
23 (3:.0 p.m.)
24 25 271 360