ML19207B128

Transcript of Briefing on SECY-78-35A,NMSS Role in Intl Safeguards & Physical Security Determinations

ML19207B128
Person / Time
Issue date:	11/21/1978
From:	Charles Brown NRC OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY (SECY)
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ML19207B060	List: ML19207B059 ML19207B128 ML19207B129
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7908230417
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W BRIEFING ON SECY-78-35A -- NMSS ROLE IN INTERNATIONAL SA.FEGUARDS AND PHYSICAL SECURITY DE"ERMINATIONS (Closed to Public Attendance)

Tuesday, November 21, 1978 r-'-

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a Pages 1 --53 Pre::ared by:

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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

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NUCLEAR REGULATORY CCMMISSION 3

4 BRIEFING ON SECY-78-35A -- NMSS ROLE IN 5

INTERNATIONAL SAFEGUARDS AND PHYSICAL 6

SECURITY DETERMINATIONS 7

(Closed to Public Attendance) 8 9

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Ccmmissioner's Conferer.ce Room i

10 1717 H Street, N.W.

Washington, D.

C.

11 Tuesday, November 21, 1978 l

12 I

i 13 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m.,

14 Joseph Hendrie, Chairman of the Commission, cresidinct.

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COM.V.ISSIONERS PRESENT :

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Chairman Hendrie 17 N Commissioner Gilinsky 11 Cc=issioner Kennedv o

o is h Ccmmissioner 3radford fi Ccemissicner Ahearne t

19 ;i ALSO PRESENT:

i 20 S.

Chilk 21 I, W.

Dircks lI E.

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Burnett 3 ii C.

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Snerr K.

Cchen 23 G.

Oplinger A.

Labcwitz (State Depar ment)

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PROCEEDINGS 2

CHAIRMAN IIEliDRIE:

Let's see, there are surely enough 3

of us here to do the following:

We didn' t have the customary agenda session last week and as a consequence we have not yet voted to close this meeting.

I have directed the Secretary to list it as closed and we are treating it as closed, but before 7

we go ahead, the Commission will have to vote to close it and I would ask you, therefore, to join me now in voting to close this meeting because we are going to discuss classified information.

Those in favor?

11

, 1 (A chorus of Ayes.)

12 l CEAIFF.AN HENDRIE: So ordered.

13 [

g While you have got" the elbo 1cosened up, and since we 4

lI are then coing to have a meeting later this afternoon on 15 ll 16 hl personnel matters, would you be willing to vote now to close that 1

!I en crivacv. c. rounds ?

I (A chorus of Ayes.)

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CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Sc ordered.

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Sam, note that we are -- I'll give you that back to 20 l!

!! remind you that we have ---

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41 MR. CHILK: Thank you.

Remind me to de scmething abcut bN e

23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

-- cics ed -J.ese mee tings.

We turn new :

a briefing en the NMSS Rcle in 2:

International Safeguards and Physical Security Determinaticns.

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Let's see, Bill, I guess you are the particular head 2

of the staff party this af ternoon. Why don't you introduce your 3

people and go ahead.

4 MR. DIRCKS: All right.

5 7 8-3 5A.-- SECY.78-3 5A dated March 7th, out.'.ined a 6

series of possible alternatives for acquiring safeguards 7

implementation information i

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9 Alternative 3 of that paper called for three things :

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10 One, support of implementation of the interagency I

I 11 action plan to strengthen IAEA safeguards; i

12 Two, review of all available safeguards infor=ation I

l 13 and any information resulting frem Csv. mission inquiries; il 1 ~ ;;

Three, l

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d Cc==issicner Bradford's concurrence -- indicating il lE b concurrence en Alternative 3 requested that before the Cc= mission n

19 'i ake acticn on 78-35A be considered final, t..a Cc=mi ssion be i

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20 :. brief ed en what tancible results may have come from the o

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apprcximately one year's wc_x en the acticn plan in crder to 1

e assured that Alternative 3 will be effective.

We are here u

23 tcday Oc previde that briefing.

2, As ycu might recall, the ac:icn plan was origina;;y 25 cu: lined for the Cerr.issier in December 1977, and the Cc : issien on D

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was asked in June for its approval of the action plan and its l

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associated work plans which was in SECY-78-292.

In the meantime, 3

the staff has given the Commission periodic updates on the plan TS 4

and it has worked with the interagency group to f1 sh out the

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5 details of the plan.

Both NMSS and IP have been working.

6 closely together on this, as they do on all international and 7

1 safeguards matters, and they are La.e to mvide the Commission I

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a status report on the progress of the plan.

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Ken Cohen of IP will begin the staf f's presentation 10 with a brief review of recent developments with regard to the 11 IAEA safeguards and an overview of the action plan.

12 -

Ted Sherr of NMSS will discuss the goals of the action 13 p plan and the status of the-action plan activities and I :rd.ght 1o 14 ? call vour attention to the f act that Mr. Al Labowit: of the n

u 15 h Ce:artment of State is sitting in the first row here and if you I

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.; have any cuestions you may want to address to him, he would be o

l 17 d' all too happy to answer them.

o 15 e CHAIRMM HENDRII: A1, welecme te these proceedings.

19 4 MR. LAECWITZ:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, i

1 20 MR. DIRCKS: Ken, why don't you start off.

n 21 MR. COHEN:

Thank ycu.

22 Sefere addressing the action plan itself, I believe it 23 we_id be useful tc take a =cment tc put the action clan inte perspective by briefly sum ari:ing the developments that have 25 cccurred since the C:=issicn meeting to discuss75-25A, this pasu 5^

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Following Conmission guidance, the staff wrote to the 3

State Department shortly after 78-35A, to ask for State's view-4 on safeguards infomation that might be reasonably 5

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State's response, which was SECY-78-464, as you know, S

l indicated a willingness to werk with the NRC in dev.

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\\'li a.c.cropriate a.ccroaci. to seekine.

9 voluntarv. submissions of such ii i

10 it safeguards information.

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13 Fol10 wing the Cc==ission's concurrence on Alternative 3, we t

., would exr.ect to write to State informing them of this decision,

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and te werk cut an approach in accordance with their suggestien 1,

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19 Also, the Conmission aill recall ena: 2 n August the l!

l Chai=an wrote te Ambassadcr d=ith to express support for the

.rV acticn plan and to note the importance cf devoting adequate 2-rescurces to the internaticnal safeguards upc rading ef fort.

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5 Ambassador Smith responded favorably to these suggestions 6

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seycnc, nese c.efe :pmen.3, -he cc--.issi n has, ed course,

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3 That was essentially a summary of those events that 4

have taken place thus far, since the last time we talked on 5

,8-35A.

6 Turning now ---

7 MR. PEDERSEN:

I'm sorry. Could I ask you one point 8

ll of clarification?

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MR. COHEN: Sure, 10 [;

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MR. PEDERSEN: I looked for that in the -- at least 2

the reports of the statement, and I didn' t recall seeing those.

3 I'm sorry, I just wanted to clarify that.

4 MR. SEEA:

Fine.

5 MR. COHEN: Turning to the action plan itself, as you 6

recall frcm the discussion in SECY-78-292, IP and NMSS represent 7

the NRC in the interagency working group to review and implement B

de items associated with the action plan to strengthen IAEA 9

safeguards. Both offices will review, for the Cc= mission, the 10 progress achieved thus f ar in acccmplishing the objectives set 11 forth in the plan.

12 r I will provide a brief overview of the action plan and i

t 13 i Ted Sherr of NMSS will disquss the action plan in detail, i

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14 y including progress made to date and de work re.caining to be 11 13 done.

!i 16 e The concep: cf the action plan, as you recall, was sll 17 h generated as the result of the publica icn of the IAEA -- by o

de IAEA Secretariat of the 1976 SSIR which contained he first 12 h

19 i critical analysis of the IAEA safeguards.

20 The plan was formulated to coordinate U.S. efforts to il 21 identify IAEA safeguards deficiencies and to implement efferns I i toward correcting dem.

The plan's purpcse is, in essence,

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two fold:

One is to elahera:e in a sincie doccent the crinci al actions the

-.S. Gcrern=en: cel:.sves are needed Oc strene-hen IAEA safeguards; and tw o, to increase specificallv. -he V }o tnih R

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quantity and quality of information available to th e U. S.

2 Government regarding implementation of the IAEA safeguards.

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To accomplish these ends the interagency group, f

4 consisting of representatives from NRC, State, DOE and ACDA 5

was established to develop the action plans and to develop E

the associated work plans.

The everall action plan effort is i

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under the aegis of State and the working group is headed by 3

Dr. Frank *iouck of ACDA.

To date, this group has met approximately il 9

I a dozen times.

i' 10 4 The work plan develcped by the croup is written to o

a 11'd identify a prepcsed action item, the steps to be taken toward i

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j 13 y; fellcw-up activity and the. time frames for initiating and i

1 4.' ccmnletinc. the action item.

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There are 33 such work plans associated with the i

.6 action plan and Oc date, interagency agreement has been reached 17 en the drafts of 18 of them. The Ccmmission, by the way, has is received 13 of the plans thus far.

The others will be forwarded 1^

i. to the Ccmmission af ter the next wcrking group meeting which is u.

20 scheduled for December 18th.

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!? and SMSS have been tasked M the developmen Of n

specific werk plans and wich fcilcw-up actions, and both effices actively participate in rev.ew and ccmaen: on the other agencies 7

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Government's consensus en both the direction and the 2

pricrities involved in the international safeguards upgrades 3

efforts.

TS The working group intends to complete its draf ting the 4

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wock plans in early 1979.

We hope, in January.

It will continue 6

to pursue two objectives at that time.

One, to continue to I

7 review the goals and cbjectives of the plan to determine whether N or not 8

action items should be added or revised or deleted; and il 9

Oc =cnitor the imp ementation of the werk plans to ensure timely l

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That's quickly an overview cf the action plan.

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.,1 CCri!SSIONER 3?.'OFORD :

Let me just ask d at if you can, 55 1 5 :i 3

cculd you focus a little en the everview in sc=ewhat differen:

4 16 sense as well, that is, it is new ab out 16 or so months since 5 h 17 at least the SSIR wen:a#rcund.

It is abcut a year since NMSS i

lE fel: that it could no longer make an af fi=ative concurrence en 19 ? U.S.

exports, and I gather we are talking abet: a period sc=e i=e el

'l 20 in early '79 before we have a set of plans designed to address 21 the cencerns raised between a year and 16 men-hs ago.

One cuestion I wculd 1 ke :c ccme &@ uerr.s with a li :le C%

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22 be::er :cday is:

Ecw icng are we talning4 until the types cf concerns ra sed by ' A55 a year age are a. ually addressed in the 25 ferr Of the kind cf concrete infer:ation you r.sy feel ycu need, p1 io

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1 and also, what further guidance ycu all may need frcm the 2

Cc= mission to move in that direction?

3 MR. SHERR:

I can cover that.

4 I hope we can track with the handout, whoever has got I

5 copies.

It has got a whole bunch of presentations, no vu graphs.

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6 I think I can handle that, ccver it in some degree in Part 4.

7 h~n a t I plan to cover is just briefly go ever the action plan 8

process, the status of the work plan development and then talk 9

about the potential benefits of the acticn plan -- that can be i

Il 1 0 't derived from the action ' clan in terms of 9.c i=cact f g 11

[j's~ 4kA.m c:; staf f8 con lusions regardinc. safec.uardsn '.- - - ---#cm and ' -. '

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i.- 20 C.e iccuc-c.f the status of implementation.

I can address, 13 'I.. I th ink,

in that context the timing when we can expect results, 1 ",l at least the cptimistic timing we can expec results.

15 g CHAI?.v_:N HENDRIE : Could I just check and see if I have ae 16 : got the paper ycu have got.

Nothing terrifies the Ccmmissioner

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MR. SHERR:

I can cuarantee it.

19 CHAI??.AN HENDRIE:

I think I' ve got it. This is it?

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You are back en section 4.

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.v R. SHERR: That's it.

Well, nc.

I was just gcing throu; 22 page 2. C.2 : _~ ;.v :.N .2..r.'.,'.o, _ r - F.., " ~_ a_-a_ c _i.. ~ _ _e _ _= _- _ _= _ ...a. w y e _.=__.. _. u.u.. .V %. q.u..? %,. Y. o a. .O. a - c ~

12 o t.' F:I . 't i la t 1 [ CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, good. 2 I MR. SHERR: As Ken mentioned, in the action plan process, 3 cace 3 the action Plan -- the current version of the action 4 plan was developed in May of 1978. It basically has two 5 1h cbjectives. OneA s to increase the availability of safeguards i issa 6 implementation information te the U.S., and the second c: _.,eee j3 a-7 l is to provide U.S. sueport to s trencthen IA, EA saf.e.c,uards, and l & *'" S p ,D 8 y l

in manv cases, actions relatus--to both of e=ers

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9 This action plan is viewed as what existed as of Mav '78, .i 10 h which is the latest version as kind of the first version. We 0 11 y kind of look at it as this thing will need to be revised as t S 12lIg time goes on, wand certain needs are satisfied and when other l 6 13'd.needsarise. So we expect.,.it to be kind of a living document _,. b :.n that sense. g ?! 15,. As Een mentioned, the werk plans support each action 16 in the action plan, and the work pla. attempts to idt. fy wha: 17 has to be dene, when it needs to be done, who is responsihle for dcing O.M Th 15

_c _;n, and by what mechanism.

19 g Now, part of the briefing we w?.ll talk about the n 2C 1 scatus cf those work plans. At this pcint we expect the werk 21 ' p'.ans to be ccmpleted in January of '79. The imple:nentation cf 22 the varicus steps that are identifief in the werk plans, and 22 these invcive activities gcing en ciay, as well as these that we w 11 :::bab1v. b e d : :.n c. five vears frcm now. a eq

g CC.v2CSSICNER EF_1. FORD- ~ ~ te cc=pleted in all cases mean 0

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i 1 '! t o p u t into affect or is that i cf o I 2 g un, sgrag: No, All completed means is that the steps 3 to be taken have been agreed uten by all the members of the l 4 action plan working group. 5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: This is the U.S. side? 6 MR. SHERR: Yes, right. I mean, this is a U.S. l t I, ?Scument, concletelv. l e f 3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Where it s a v. s, "imm. lementation one ji 9 ,li goes forward to see what others might think about--- .1 ,1 10 i! MR. SHERR: And hopefully -- that's right. y Out-66 11!! Most time, inclenentation is, in fact, requesting the i A li 1 2,, mission to take action with the agency or with other nations, and h i i 13 j. we will see some of that.. i TS 14 j

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. this presentation and given the cine !'.s 15, cons traints and the particular centext of SECY 7 8-3 5 A, I have 16 l, concen: rated on the purpose cf the availability of IAEA i g 17 implementatier infc:mation. So I really am not going :c talk 15 ccc nuch abcut these aspects of the action plan for strengthening I 19 IAEA safeguards. That would take probably 2 to 3 hours. If ,,I .i h 20 ~, you want to ge t in,-,to that, I think we should do it at a different s Cn page 4, then the next section is to basically 22

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briefl;/ describe wha: the status cf wcrk plan de fe' cpnent

%E ~ _s. Inis,sw lists the werk plans th a t have been cenp'e ed, \\

5 whicn is 18, as Ren had mentioned.

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o i. t! s-j. 'rd,,',,;i [i.j ,il 'r N d I i sJ' J ' J 1 _. I i 1 j Then, on page 6 there are these work plans tha t are l i 2 l cutzently under review, at least one draf t has been put together !, and in many cases -- in one case, 3 I know we are on the fourth 4 draft. We expect that these will be completed within the next N y> 5 either, the next meeting or the meeting following that. 6 Then there are three work plans that are indicated en 7 [ page 7 that we have yet to have a first draft. None of them are H,, involved in the information aspects. 2 i fg 9 h Now, the potential benefits of the action plans 10 t regarding the availability of information, I start to get in to u !4 11.' when we get to page 8. I think I should describe this in 12 "; relation to the kind of conclusions -- the change and the kind l N M SS 13 !l; fC n lusionS th^t

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li process as different types of informa:icn becane avai.lable. o H 15 p Now, I have i?entified this by the source of infomation, u .._ _ f :.erent tv es. _a o _' ~.7 .e C 'i

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ype cf inferr.ation, which, were it :.issing wculd enable you ec 17 say na-

.he IAEA couldn't do its jch? I I 10 ..R. e n.-2 : y a..m m -+ .l o, OI .OJ a 6 bw f f N

F .;. 0 9 't h. II i.' 1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Scw, can the ':AEA require those t i' 2 measures to be taken on its own or does that have to be a l. 3 i formal State syrtem? I A MR. SEEl.A - OLav, it does -- LTIIPC 153 la.v.s out all of a.- 5 9 try:rse requirerents. They are general, you know, you take an a

l. inventory you will have a measurement system, ycu will have air l-7

!! generation an; things like that. As we will see later on, .A< 3 one of the things under development is f guideline,uforftate { c systems or accounting and control, wn..icn is an attempt to n 1 0 '. provide a little more meat and substance in terms of -- not r 11 g that you have to have this kind cf thing, but what its nature i 12, nust be. a b if thegf/ 13 h COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: But th e n, nate is 75 14 functicning under INFC 3C 153, :nder that regime //, would that, 1. 15 " in itself satisfy what you described in that first bullet?

• 4

.V :.. a r.T.r..o. a -* /. I: _ c. ~ I: 20 ~~ CCD'ISSICNER GILINSF". What would you conclude if the .H 5 syste-did ' alicw fcr -his sert cf IREA er?luaticn, the care ,c iJ i O ( W] i e

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i I 1 system itself wasn't there? .2 t 2 If the / tate system didn' t have all of the 75 MR. SHERR: t 3 elements which would enable that, we would say that. 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSK'l: What would we do then? I 4 5 l MR. SHERR: I don't know. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: N o, what I'm saying is --- MR. SHERR: There are a myriad of considerations that / t. 3 need to be brought to bear on that type thing. I I, e:' COMMISSIONER GILINSK'i: Well, I mean, I guess I just i. 1 , 0 h don'- think it goes very f ar. .-* ll,, I 1 12 i i i, a f 14,l MR. SHERA: oh

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n -n w.vy,=S.Ch. . G...NS.i: _o i rr .-2 .s g u ,u / _3 MR. SHERR: 20 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: l! 3 9 .v...c: =.... >-+ e e m,. M 7,

!i 7^9 D 0 [n1l D L[ ! U.I '_J,l l 4 m ]l, IJ'[ GDfll]( ] /] P l- !.i J X.. ;i'/u t _O .1 you get on a privileged basis versus information that you get 2 through the formal channels. 3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: You are considering the SIR l 4 to be on a privileged basis? 5 MR. SHERR: There are aspects of the SIR which, in fact, 6 are on a privileged basis, but --- 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what difference does it 8 nake that it is en a privileged basis. I mean, we are here to c I decide some cf these questions. I mean, you know, u -vou can 10dwhisperinourear. 11 i MR. SHERR: No, no. What I'm saying is we are getting 12 :l this information informally by word of mouth, in many instances, i ,,i. ' ;l and maybe --- I g' ,.*q COMMISSICNIR GILINSKY: You mean it is not reliable. 1 5 i! MR, sazRR: l ..i, o i, !) 1 o l l! 20 N ... o .b 2I Yes, I think a ic: cf times we get i.G o that kind s ^2 cf sinus.icn. CC:O'.IS S:CNER G: LINS EY. Maybe I':- interrupting ycu tOO 2.: earl, but j <s

1 9 I ,\\, ,s s t I p u s G,, i? G T+ " ; nq ,l i 1 o il b_b U iu' 4 1 MR. SHERR: Well, that was ny point here, but this is, t i 2 to some degree, an ascending crder in what we started -- this 3 is what the minimum we got, and then I'm going to go on in terms A cf what kind of increases of information we have had through 5 various actions and work plans. 6 l i l 1 1 C l ? I. i l I. i 3 ,a In 1 0 -l r l ' i. i l. -- _7 _1 i i, s 2 i'i 1 i in la, .s li a 15 j! The second bullet basically says with completion of 4 /? V. A l V, g, 2-V. 6. 3 75 is ; full implementa:ica cf jtetions e, w and 52 : -- and inciden:- 17 ;i ally, when I say full implementation I'.m. saying this is li eccentially what could ccme out of it. It is kind of the 19 d cetimistic outlook, p I 22.j CCMMISSIONER GI*INSKY: This is if the IAEA agrees, right? e 21 " MR. SHERE: If we can get everybody to cooperate --- I CCMMISSIONER GI*INSKY: Is that what you are saying? k IAEA & q$ FR. SHIRR: Yes. g or c-her nations. , _._ e ,._4 e _,. .._,,. _ :..s _-.:.. e...,_..s. vv 25 MR. SHERA: In many cases it is ..a t.

O. 20 t t i j .I i I' l t l We would end up with this guide that I had referred to earlier c. &~' fwr[ tate systems of accounting and control, 25, I 3 l which is an attempt to provide more : neat than what exists in T$ A s u 153 in terms of what constitutes an adequate ptate 5 system, sets an international criteria for that. 6 7 8 c I t I, it 10 j I i i 11 i I f l i '. 2 t 13 i i ..l.' 'o ,_ -f l 3 l,l e e suo 8[ t 17, i 9 g. s .e$, g i a l 5 2) I' !i j! ..4-w b e

]r *@ @ IO 21 i, U in! i 3 l r.. T.-,i: i ,:l .~, n ,r t i; i i I 9 ; 1. J & L ub o u O J t-i il .i h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You are talking about years 1 I 2 from now. t, 3 MR. SHERR: Yes. As a matter of fact, I have got a l i 4 little. indication of timing which _I was going to get to a. little ,[ 5 later on, but I would view that about 2 to 4 years on the 6 cptimistic side. I 7 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Jus: to have a bettor feeling l I TS 8 I

for the ate system of accounting?

ii MN I 9 MR. SHERR: To cet international cenpliance,w' -5 i 10 H guidelines that haven' t even been accepted vet. I think it is i il ,n

11. " a. year untiL we get those guidelines accepted, and that has been I

r 12ll a very difficult process. It is a long drawn out --- U Ia i 11 !! COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You are saying that ycu are. i c i, 14,! asking this -- that within 4 years, everyone will be in 15 p, cc= lia: ce? 16 l' MR. SHERR: What I said is that if you asked me when 17,, -his cculd happen, I would say optimistically 2 tc 4 years. 15 I: nay never happen. f 19 ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Optimistically 2 to 4 year:? i 1 6 20 MR. SHERR: Yes, yes. It may never happen. It just it fepends on how much cccperation we can get @Q_ o-her nations, Q 21 3 COMMISSICSEF SILINSKY: Su this is all Of -2.e things -ha O'

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f i 1 the United States is doing. This isn' NRC, right? O ? e) ) MR. SHERR: That's right. The /ction flan is the 3 U.S. efforts. 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You are just talking about this 5 'Jovernmental plan? MR. SHERR: Yes. But NRC is a very key coint in this L.. B. I 7 ]5 yl DCE to identify what -hing. As you will see later on, W 1 ~' tifics the NRC and -0 their information needs are and there are i ,', nany. 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: All richt, so we have got this .i .. 11 l long-range thing going on, kind of. a proliferation MUF and in -he !? N ' 2 [l' nearG ime, what is the staff going ec be doing to help us make l 1 3* ji these decisions? 0 h, MR. SHERR: Decisions with regard to approving-4l-3 - i' 3 J. exe.cres? . 6 [n CCM.'CSSICf.ER GILINSKY : Or disapproving then. e MR. SHERR: Okay. Well, I think -- Well, it might e-is be wortryhile to hold that until the end if we can, but I 19 think the thing is, it depends en what kind of information we h' l 20

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h. I to;' 1 l to take so much time, I'm interrupting your presentation, but 2 the thing that troubles me about this is that it sort of l 3 presents the United States plan and it has these options, which I think are kind of phoney in a way. 5 6 7 I I o i l l i, !8 9 MR. SFrRR: Ch, you are talking about the Cc= mission Q ,0 !!, paper now..nde-the & h AO d action c.r:ue. ? l _. ll.lL _..... _C.OMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. I i li i A2 :, MR. SEERR: No, that's not in this paper. i 13,y_ COMMISSIONER GILI.NSKY: No, no. I'm j = ping back .i a.-'. d "^-- - --- h ha..e, cu. *ha a -. 4 c a-e.' a.. .i s '...y- ~_ __2.. _w .. A-o', _ u s ',y g il th i 15 i it is scmething we want to do and it is an f.= crtant effert and t I ,' l, 15,'we want ec succcr: it, and we want to s tren=.then IAEA safecuards, r I 17 " and we want to play cur role in i: to the extent that we can, e '. S based on our cc=petence. Su: that doesn't deal with our presen: problems, and they are not scr: of -- the NRC cptiens aren' t li 20 whether to support the action plan -- obviously we are going to u 21 support it and we want to, as I said, play our rcle. su: wha: 22 is the NRC staff going tc dc? b e I 3 OO lD ' pD -= d -Q cr we are u v ,v i

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f i 1 i i 24 !j I! a i, is f 1 l going to look to these sorts of cases and try to do the following i-2 MR. SHERA: Okay, let me get to the end and tell me --- l 3 COMMISSIONER G.'LINSKY: -- and if it is there, I 4 apologi::e. 5 ~ MR. SHERR: I think it is. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay. 7 l MR. SHERR: If I understand what you are saying, I E thinx :.:

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l 9 'l Okay, so with this -- maybe I should go to the next .6 ,10 : one. l } 11 ll ht 12!j q II 13;l 1 i ,.i, i ri 3 ll

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U 25 i .I li 63 if i,l i 'l 11 I .l e r 3 - I I 1 i o .a.a ,= -o 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Does the 5t; ate Department have E anv. cc: nents ? c MR. LA3CWITZ: On the question of getting additional i i 10 ! information, I think the re.::crd so f ar has been fairly encouraging.! 3 I -These things do take time and Cc==issioner Gili. sky, I think, I 2,j indicated a certain amount of impatience, but we began the effort l h i i3 "4 which produced the first information report abcut a year and a- 't 3 .ce: ore -- cr more bercre we go

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a na2: it i = - U. _a i .. U ll 'I n f _1 Q .e 1 20 ' p H 'l I think we ha'ce come a f air _y long way frc= wha: the 22 eituation was just a few years age where the situation with ,,,.. -.. s a _" a_3 ' a_ s w a _e ..". a... . a_ e'.= _ _= =_f-ae- -, "e c_- A.. ew s -- 4 -= _...g g n- ~*.=.e =s..~ -=_ ~._~..- .n. - -.... a _-v_ _a.ne _= a_-a_, w a_ .._._.,a c... _ e...... _ _.. _ _4.. :... _

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l l t U L L' & b E mli. u b] L 1 that was not the case. So we took steps to get some information 2 out. I think this is a step-by-step process that will evolve 3 over time. I don' t know that we will ever be in a position 4' such as Cc=missioner Gilinsky would obviously prefer, which is c to be able to say with respect to every country in which the i 6 agencies are applying safeguards, that sc=ecne sitting back 7 outside of that system, curside of the process could be able to 8 exerc2e the judg=ent as to whether the jcb is being dcne 9 sufficiently well. I don't know that we could ever acnieve that !l 10j! goal. I think there are a nunber of things, many of them in the .i 4 11 h action plan, which,if they are pursued, I think he Secretariat 12 l. is receptive as.1ong as each step is not tco drastic a departure 13 from-the crevious -- what h,.as been.=revicusi.v acce.ntable to the i !\\ ,,h meccer s_tates. i f, 15 : Other steps, as Fr. Sherr has p..fnted cut, will .. q require the cccperation cf other coun: ries. o ,, o 11 il 1C is w 19 h t ] 20 h d' 7'

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27 a ist i.n 11 11 i 1 i syster of accounting and control meeting certain standards. i 1 2 i That prvposal was made, as I recall, two years ago, within the 3 Executive Branch. 4 The first question that came up is what standards. 5 Well, there were no standards. We have discussed with the 6 g Secretariat of the agency of having a set of standards developed _ lii that were acceptable to a broad representatic-. of the 3 i me=ber S tates. That crocess is still going On. Several meetings

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p 1 have.been held. The next one, I believe, is. scheduled early n 10l next year. We hcpe that in the February meeting, I believe it I 11 ( is, -that an agreement will be reached on a set of reccmmended -- I i 2 ;t,. reccm=endations, cuidelines fc: State systems of accountine and l' ' 3 h, I centrol. Perhacs it won' t rbe achieved in February a-.d we will ancther meeting 6 months later, get n n 17 i Sc tha process w ll take probrbly 3 years frcm the time this was IF identified as a useful step. Sc we have to t2ke these things 19 in due course. lI 20 COD 1ISSIONER AHEARNE: Thank vou. 21 MR. SHERR: Pric: tc ccming this mczning, scmebody 22 called me and asked me how 1cng this was gcing to take, I said, . _ _- _. e m,.. _w-__._e_ y, _-r e,-,-__.,._..,._,_ v ~- -. _ _ _.. _,s. n.,,,., ,- _. _ =, _. _. =--_,.._,_._. _ -, _.,. ; ;_=___...__ s ..~__ -e_a___- WO o 4 I i i -r \\,', t._,,> t j ~ ~ S G $ l} D) O M u E.j U.j U P a

28 j l} i I n ' t, l l i I 1 ! n:SS may be able to provide more definitive conculsions on i I 2 I would expect that would be 3 t;e case. 4 5 6 7 8 I n !l! 9 li .1 1 0 '; ,, il i 11 ! i 12 : i l 13, j

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I 30 I i t i I l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 2 CO.v_AIISSIONER GILINSKY : i 3 4 MR. SHERR: i 5 i I i 6 i 7 i 8 l COMP.ISSIONER 3RADFORD : But when you say for that 9 j particular year, that would be '76. Before that there was no i '*O 75 I SY3ter ^ tic --- 11 MR. SHERR: Yes, the ' 76 SSIR was the-first. reporting,- 1 ,A2 and as Allen mentioned, that was getting them to provide that i '3 rec.ortinc. mechanism was a t..i9 ster in this area. = h. ' ' d', CO!GISSIONER AHEARNE h 7 5 pt i.d .. ed i 'r -a. s =.v. : . n.at.s part of the.ca statutes. .ney ns u 12 are rec.uired to do that, .o i! 19 CC:01ISSIONER AHEARNE: So that the particular action 20 i then is that af ter, do the statutes recuire the States to report np' what action hev take? ,f ^ -q1-JJ KR. SHERR: I'. not sure. I don't think._ hat is C/ Y"N ^ - -"- sure. Mav..re sc.ebcdv else 4=m.

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si .5 L O ij \\ l i e i f i e il 9 - il MR. SHERR: t. 2 3 l As 5 6 i / Okav, other sources of informatacn basically relates 8 9 I to -- action 13-1 calls fcr NRC and DOE to identify whatever i 10jill information needs it has in addition to infor. ation that is t 11 L currently -- that it currently has access to. In ceneral, what 12 we try to do is get the information through formal mechanisms 13,,_ without having to create any. international incidents er to avoid -. b, " u any discc= fort. Il. ii li ..q _c t, it i d .- / n 1; il E' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you a question: We've 1 13 j got applications cc=ing up, for example, there is one en India. I 'l 20 ', Does NMSS take any initiative in seeking information on the p! 21 subject er do you just sort of passively wait to see what 22 cresses ycur de.ck cr what? I mean, what de you regard as your 23 respcnsihility, just i. deciding whe-her you agree er disagree wt_n --- 15 MR. SHEER: Well, ! ".eSicate c Speak for UEE3 r Uut let 'r b,'bmaL..n i j s i s i-i,i JJ t ji. IQ'lfl I!U m w.cna

7s2 l' t I i i 4 me give it a shot anyway. 2 I think, at this point, you know, the Con =nission 3 review procedures are before we nake a decision on this -- yes -- 4 on 78-35A, is that, if in fact, the export is subject by IAEA 5 safeguards and satisfies that criteria, and u know, the NMSS 6 qualified conclus4cn at the bottom basically says, jdey, that's I ow A 7 75 , the basis = this th.4 ng has bee.1 reviewed, but remember we 8 ! don't have anv info mation on ne ef fectiveness cf 1AEA safeguards. T5 9 o 9 l,i Now, we have been -- you know -- in takes a lot of 10 efforts --- . 11.j !...... _IOMMIS SIONER. GII. INS KY : Well, I guess I don' t think the n 12 !lawreadsthat way, but go ahead. I 13.,i .MR..SHERR: I'm not -- vou knew -- I'm just savinc that's j . u c e _ p m - _ _2.,,.._ 4. .e_,s c= w..o__,- ..-*e c_ e c.. w c ..., y i! 7-o-0.v.v.r S.q I O v.s :..s G -. N. c w.... v. -o p, o n e..- .e.. -.s2..m..s : l.ou.etnow, wnat we are legally r.ound fer _c E , e s3 4 A I ecA -. _..x ._n e N.v. _: s.,_. .,_ is a,., s.. o, e, 4 n _ w.,_ e a 19 Cc=.ission tha: that's the way we are interpreting the situation. .I o 20 h COM'CSSIOhTR GII. INS.G : So vcu don't see anv. resc. onsibili: 1 _3 _. _4 -._' e.=ea _-. # _-.. ~%.....'m. e - .n' e: . ' - ' " w m,t ' A ..e=.-'., ..n-._. - s _m n .w ,y ....' A e '._' s .4...# ~_...a._4

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qS 1 ll following area. Does anybody knew about it? i 2 MR. SHERR: Well, I think Dr. Smith's attitude, you 3 I know, and that's all I can really speak to here is that, you 4 knew, he has an area where he takes initiative, but he also has 5 an area where he has bounds, as the Commission does, and as 6 the President does. And I think Dr. Smith's and this is mv. i i ~d '~i 7 impression of what Dr. Smith '.s. attitude / ee en this thing, is F w 8 p that until there was a decision en SECY-78-35A, that all the h 9 g Conmission wanted him to cc was, in ract, determine whether 18 1 0 !! IAEA safeguards applied to that export. i 4

11. y COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :

Which, cf course, we didn't il 12 *1 need them before. l. I 13, MR. SHERR: I understand. i, 1, ;l And, in fact, in terms of the review frcm the material 11 a 15 ;; centrol and accounting aspects, ycu know, essentially zero a! 16 7 resources have been devoted to that task. 17 CO.v_v.ISSIONER GILINSFY : Sut cuesmicns have come up u 15 about varicus exports 19 and these questions end ua o e 'ln 20 ^ getting raised at the Cc= mission level, and I guess I'm not o i 21 sur:rised tha: ycu don't feel -- I mean, I understand that 22 there are certain bounds that one can': go beyond and uhere is _4 _:,.... 3. 4..c 3....e =,. - e.e e 4 x

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.s I 1 ;U I guess I would expect the staff to take some initiative in 2 thinking about what are the problems here, what ought we try 3 to knew, does anybody in the government know this? s 4 MR. SEIRR: Well, I agree with you. j 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I mean, that is what seems to 6 I me to be interesting and important in terms of ir=ediate 7 de cisiens.. I mean,.the. rest of it is just the government-wide 8 program, and as I said, cf course, we ought to be supporting 'I 5 9 ' I it and trvinc to crove it to the extent we can and so on. That's .-a 4-h q q 10ji a icng-range effert and we ought not kid ones self that it is h 11!! ccing to --- W l g 12 h MR. SHERR: Let me say that I think this de cision O 13 g point, if,-in fact we go.wi..th Alternative 3, I think we are in b 14 j' -that mode and staff would be doing tha type of thing. H 15 ] CO!?'ISSIONZR GILINSKY: Well,it is not dcwn --- Cm... c.e. Oh...., =.-.R.=,. ...u .n ~....... ~. - ......,.c,-., .i i-17 l CCFMISSIC57R SRACFORD: The =cre active mode. il lel' 1 5 COMMISCIONZR AHZARNZ: If it gces Alternative 3, in 19 which mcde would --- il S0 .V.R. S.=.=".0 ". m. I! 4* -~

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- u 35 il. l i l i 1 l COSIISSIONER AHEARNE: I thought we went with 2 gig,,ative 3? 3 MR. SHERR: But Cor::missioner Gilinsky is referring to: 7{ %.4 Hel4, we have been doing it in the past, and what I understand is 5 that I think at this decision juncture, we would be doing things 6 differently in the future. 7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Let me clarify. _L thought we 9 had previously decided to go with Alternative 3? c i MR. DIRCKS: I don't think we have got the official i f 10 ll word that you have gone for Alternative 3. I 11 l cogg;33;oggg Au.EARNE: Ch.

12lt, CHAIRV.AN HENDRIE: We've got -- Let's see.

Have vou l 13.!;. voted? I don't find yours.. I"1 vCE....S-AO. R GILINS 2: A have said.we ought to do at a: n

i. l 3 3 ll least that.

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r l 3m ij wanted us to have this briefing. There hasn't been the e h. 3 Chilkocram to s taf f that sav.s co. i. > j' COMMISSIONER SRAD.rCRD: That's right. I just wanted i O tc be sure that Alternative 3 had some real mear.ing and that 21 it was: ' : the last stage in which we cculd sti'.1 he doing cther 22 alternatives --- y - s' C%."'.~_===.','=.=. e _ ~ ~ N.= "... = _ ~. ~. ~A..'=..'. ~_~.. A. a..- e..s.~. = _'. as v_. ~~ 1, an al:Grnative, .n.. ^ v.y : : - e ,.:... : r.,- ~ -. ..,. = 5 i s.2 pc

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li 36 l! , 'l l, I' i 1 alternative in SECY-78-35A. 2 MR. DIRCKS: It was that one of seven options that 3 was --- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes, but I mean, we ought to 5 do it and we ought to support the government program and so on. 6 MR. SHERR: I think it goes beyond that. I think, when 7 we finish -- if you don't feel it does, tell us. I think it i 3 I reallv does. i U 9 H, CHAI?S.AN HENIRIE: Sam, did Vic ---

l 10 h MR. CHILK:

He has not voted. Four of you have 1 11 Ji voted for Alternative 3 and he has not. l 12 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY: I signed one and tv.::ed the 13.l words, you know. h n 14,, CHAIRMAN HENIRII: Okay, we mus have a vote shee 4 15 here scme place. 15 a CCPS.ISSICNER GILINSKY: There used to be an i! L T4.4-1b 17 ',l eval ation panel on nuclear weapons that I-c-e used to chair i. LE where they do it very hardly and then they would have to run B$ 19 off and catch airplanes before this -hing was typed, and 9e-a Q ,N 20 L would sign sheets of paper at c ury twc-inch intervals dcwn 21 the race se that hcwever the reecr: came cut, they had a sheet 22 with his signature in.o.e right pce. 22 (Laughter; ..s: -...m.. w.v_y,. - - - ~.,. - : ._s .v .e......... c. _ c _e _ _4,.. .v.... ... =

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47 11 e n il' t l l i 1 i sources,.:he point here is that w tried to get ir: formation -- Q N c.c. aw ]$ 2 once information ves-identified State would pursue all kinds j g 3 cf mechanisms for getting it. { e 1, -3 1 { -o e i I. j-1 E f., Again, I would imagine that mcs: cf this kind of 9 10 y inrcrmation would be where, in fact, I ,,Ui ... - _!} cr seme m2.ng, we nave an 12 l indication of a prchlem but we want nere specifics in terms of l .13 h what -the situation is. An;i that would be going back and going _,,.l. _,,._,,.s .w .,,.4..d m _e e c.w. a..4 s.... _3 e I.t n I 15 h. CO.M_v.ISSIONER AHEARNE : Eu to be clear, as far as 15

, MSS is concerned, they have nc: ye: received any formal a,

1 7 ': rescense on 35 or 35A? SN/ EA Q is xR. I:::A: That's right. 19 CCFS1ISSIGNER AHEARNE: And, Sam, the reascn they R 't

0 hhaven't received any response is because you had an utstanding 1

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c -- +, 't .v 2. CHI' K. (Scds in _he af firmative. ) COSO:ISSIGNER ARIARNE: Sc -hat when those are done ---

'R. SEIER. Yes, that's wh;

.e... "...- a_ _=,,,.. s e.- ^.....".=.e_'.c.- c>.y, _ " e.. a.'... =. - = = '= -" ~ 1 a, J J ! U.., 8 i i s J <o 4 ( If I'(b.U /$!a -f

ll 38 E li.! t i MI .i l h't 3radford's recuest,o what things have been accceplished to date gCj 1 s 2 and what rerains to be done. Anc-in line w:.tn-your quest. ton at the beginning, what kind of timing that I can imagine. 4 Again, the or.ly actions that I'm focusing on in this 5 briefing a e, in fact, those relating to gaining more information 6 cn implementation. I have identified 14 on pages 12 and 13 I il -ha:.f all in. hat category. There are 19 other actions that _I - t'Y strie:ly rela:e to improving IAEA safeguards. Of those, the first 8 >l i 9 li are what I would censider the raost i=cortant, and those are 1 ' O jj the ones laying in our covering detail. r-11 jl. IE.GIAS liENDRIE: A summary detail,. because. I'm going 12.! :0 ha'.e to clcse this cut before too long. i 13 ;, MR. SHERR: I will go through this as quickly as I can. Z.A, l C..< a y, e, P 7* sD / ') 1i Ur f e l} j}) -a= < l-c c w 1, I t i i i a 19 .-) . ~ b 20 3 e as m O. er m_ m d D EI e O

D p ll i; li u M ii l t. i I 3 4 3 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: Is there a word missing from .L O. Z ? u b 6 17, ;, Board agenda #oor scmething of that sort? I MR. SHERR: Yes. That's what it means. 8 -- and this was done last year. It was included on the n';j Soard and the -- as, I don' know, I think Al had mentioned that 9 n 10 la che s tatement bv. the U.S. rec.resentative did, in fact, reflect i D 11 t!. comments from S tate, ACDA, DOE and NRC., and ve. would expect these '} i 2 2 'i same s:c=s to be cursued averv. v. ear. ~ 13 : Now, 13-1 is a critica.1 action in terms of what's +. i,i. 14. before us. This work c. lan has been develcped. As I have mentioned h QS 15 H this is the action that fc DOE and NRC to identify any i'l 16.h additicnal informational needs that it has, and this is the i! 17 '.! impetus fcr other acticns that are related c ir.plementation n 13, infer =:icn. 19 Il COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: Now, let me just ask: We sent il 20 h a letter, Jim signed a letter of September 29 en this subject to 21 NState. What is it gcing tc take fcr us, actually, c c,et 22, specific cn that peint? Are we in a situati.on in which you are _4 _4.. 3~.'c- *.a. *.."..i s.= _'... o _ =_ _' _' " c u w.". c-..-"%.'.. c 7 '. s.-. ^ # w. w. C 2, g: in:: a letter like this, and perhaps we are waiting fcr . =. n. u.... w C.

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I 40 i O i i cl 5 1 cught to ge in to a letter like this, because --- v 2 MR. SHERR: See, I hit that a couple mintues ago. 3 But I think on the basis of what Ken says already, if the 4 Co= mission approves SECY 78-35A, it says immediately that the 5 Cc= mission should ask State 6 That was subsumed in those alternatives 7 In fact,. the Commission may want to consider going 3 bev.ond that and rec.uest them to get informa:icn li -c e o 81

i 7 0 "!!

V 11 J,I - As f ar as i=c. lementation of this thin 5, vou know, as l 4 3., o v information and neither p.ou indicated, NRC has not identified anv 4 d 1J L-has DOE. So ne'_nine. has been -- there hasn' t been -anvt hinc. to. 1.1 -'i, spark his thing to date. i'l 15 h COMMISSIGNER 3RADFORD: One other ques ti.cn there : n ,- o

s -here anything, Jim, in the Executive Branch -- in the 3-

.i format for the Executive Branch respenses that wo::ld be respcnsive to this? Any of the points made in there that --c . :.c re: lect en sa ec.uarcs adec.uaev.? wou_c tenc I I. A MR. SHEA: I believe there are some ite:.s in there. 21 Maybe Jer y could perhaps recall what it was it ._'h a t format 22 gus exactly how the wording was. ~_ _ _.. v _ _e _e _ c_. -_ :.._=:__.-.c_..

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41 nu lil .i!! l, I 1 i tn.is requirement. 2 MR. SEEA: That's right. That's spelling it out 3 so that regularly on the export reviews they would include 4 these points. They are looking at that right now to see 5 whether they agree with that proposed point. 6 .%. OPLINGER: But_I think the way their analyses are 7 being. s ent. _to us_ now., they don'.t really addLress these. questions _. l 8 about whether the implementation of safegua.rds is being adequately i I n 'S9 i carried out or whether there is an adecuate cate system of I u 10 4 accounting and centrol to do that. They si= ply say what the l' 110' agreement contains, whether or not there is an agreement l 12 " applying IAEA safeguards and it steps there.

_13 n, COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes.

l' d But clearly, this acuion plan item and the Executive a i I! 3 ranch format ought to be kept in paral',el, I shculd think. 1-Il 16 n v2. CPLINGER: And they could be, I mean, :.his cculd il I 17 - be cne vehicle thrcugh which you wculd trv. to seek the information a l' 15 MR. SHERR: So basically, all the steps you need to be 19. cne as request, NRC and DOE have to idend 'y inicrma-l en needs. i l 1 20 :! Once these are identified through various :necha.nisms they p! 21 L would seek the information, I, 22 Depending en 23 what is the =cs: convenient, er =cre than One, which w:.il provide, 2, in sc=e cases, for cr ss check. 2. g A, L.. v $5 25 Fage 17, actions relating :: 1: 1 a.d 1: 2. Inis, as 7oo D' D oa1 .,5p. 0 w ,p, j b, J _.-] O

- briefly described earlier, n q, 2 ho _ 1d s,.is 'l 4 -o 6 .i h. i i 'i E tis paper has been reviewed by the working group. t C "4 'o .e s ub s a ~-e _.^ 7 a.m. s .4 n-.4 a.e d .a.;a_ - 4 4-" y o_ _ e,.

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.s 43 i l, a l'1 1 o i I i'! t 1 I look at this as being a two to three year optimistic 2 type situation. 3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I think what happened is 4 Ecward took his last ce= ment as a challenge. He's clicking his 5 finger against the microphone. i 6 MR. SHAPAR: I'm registering no challenge. 7 (There was a microphone ncise at this time during the j E meeting.) 9 1, COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: Just a silent orctest. i 'l 10ll COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Something is -- is your mic a 1.!j..perhaps. hitting against the edge of t.'e table?. + l'i 12 N MR. SHERR: Okay, -the next section, l _a g II 15 h Nothing much has been done to date, but H o, .e : irs: real action called for is in Januarv '79 where we are 17 ; going to put ecgether draft proposals for consideratien for SAGSI 13 to, in fact, have this ingrained into the IAEA precedure.s. And 19 - we will see what kind Of reactions we get frcm the other SAGSI tln 20 :, reeresentatives at that time. g. 1 Again, I lock at this as a one to three year type 22 proposition. _e G,3 a ~ ~ :O review 17. de:Eli e laFC a c t i c.". ".P. a ~. ~. W a s O c i.". Sa is * "=i== is e e

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1 c 's % 1 b, h ib. ll i 1 - p If 2 i 3 i 4 The work plan itself is still under development, but things are going on, as Al hafindicated the guidelines for l '75 5 3 6 SSAC, there have been several meetings on it. The next one is 7 scheduled in February. NRC has been involved in that aspect. 8 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Can I ask you: What is the h Le rel cf ef fort in NRC and international safeguards dealing 10 l wit". _hese sorts of questions? 3i'. MR. SHERR: Yes, in the area cf strengthing inter-i e"-l'- R .ational safeguards, in 79 it was four man-years and in '80 t / 1. .i. La -here.is three man-years, and $ 26 5,000. u IC.N'"ISSICNER GI~.INSKY : And how much is devoted ~ to 15. dealing with experts? .c.r py.. .r eca_., ...4-a 4,. ne .,n..s_4c_- y ; w- - r _ e._. _ _a .. _._.__. c.,eA. o , anc. we.,.x .,. 4s. o,. ..,,.e, m,._. r .a w.. e _. _.,.... c v. i. he.2 ..e .w.. w 19 "E. E'.'ENETT : It is tw nan years and it is, '. y . C .".-*.'=.1 c =. -" _.* *.v.a ~. ~s". 4 s rod... --. _. g.c.v m,., o g g...u.sc -. se ..a. d c. '. c' o a."." ". 4..e, 1.n. ". a. - m.., r ~ o ..,.__._,..'..3-e v.,s., _- s o --- e_

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li 45 nq l' il lI i 1 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You mean it is controlled by 2 the budget? 3 MR. BURNEI"I: It was identified, pending your. selection, 5 two man-years in a set-aside and it till d in that condition. 4 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY : And it has to do with this 6 paper here? 7 MR. BURNETT: It has to do with the basic paper pf' which o , option vou go with. 9 d COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: Which opticn would have pulled it 1+ n i O l,l out of the set-aside and into the budget? 'Il 11 !!, MR. BURNETT: Well, had v. ou cene with option 1. i ", - l there would have been nothing. ,,4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I understand. I l ' lilc MR. SUENETT: If you had gone, say, with opticn 5, U du2 gw 7M 3 !i then, het two Orchablv would have been --- A~ .i \\ o o COMMISSIONER KENNEDY. u .l ,- n o I! 3,' COMMISSIONER 3RACFORD: What happens with cption 3? 19 MR. BURNETT: It's about twc7:an years. 20 " COMMISSIONER 3R.I.0 FORD : So it comes out of the set-aside L I' and into -he budget? 22 MR. SURNETT: We'1, the set-aside is a fictiticus thing, 22 y: understand. C C.? '.v. ~ c..=. ~_ u^ '; =..=. ~~~. v._.~'.,'.=.;.=.-. .......~.., _ _...=. ~ Ji MR. EUR':ETT : At this pct. , because now the budge: has 5 0 IT) 5;((s. .i ( L) {a;. j r q g, g m.mq. ..z i d , ! Dj !,.W J J. M a

4 e. i-t l- - d. gene to CMS. 7.t was only a set-aside for getting that package t. N, readv.. 2 i I: 3 ji COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But the tw man-years are .ii i going to be devoted to what? 5 3.R. BURNETT: 6 e t: 7 plus general upgrading of the e wn o t e _e s system. -2 CCF'v.!SSICNER GILINSKY : But what about ncn-IAEA 10 information on exports? .v.. n.t R. e m. m. .v 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: s ..e l.3, t.m.a , s inca, ucec : n tne two-r.'.an ..R. z n L.R..T: i 15 years. That is just there are a lot of parzial c. eccle in ^f -ha: :w-an -y e ar s. But that was how we priced out. / l~ .vn. DIRCKS: But that's only the increme.t over the _3 physical security. I nean, they have people evaluatin . c. C r.e.v.. S S.r C r a-g._s..n.= .na. G - -

h.. e. n-.y.

o 4 .a . c. 2C MR. DIRCKS: and other information in ....e ..w. .w n a %. -..

v. e s.

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O 47 I:* I s i)' guidance as to what depth to lock at material and accounting. 1 A 2 It wasn' t until the paper came to you asking guidance 1.r.r.c which 4 M 3 (> cptions es how deep you wanted us to go. Up until that paper, A' generally we accepted IAEA --- 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You know, the question here 6 isn't sort of whether or not vou accreve or. von have a sign-off 7 or can you sign-cff cr not sign-off. It is can ycu provide 8 the information tha : is helpful in making decisions. Can you i

j shed sc=e light en it.

Even if you don't sign off or even if i 1 0 ll y o u d e c i d e, you know, you have only got pa_nial information, this il 11 ij _ is.rhe.best you can do and you can' t come to a.y. judgment en n, h ..,-- p it and you leave it up to the Commissioners, but-I gus t -don' t, i 1 13 ! see any mechanism that churns up this sort cr' inf omation, and' if' ,l.: ends up being, you know, .=i, 12,j v. 3"v;s,rm.m.. .x st il 6 Of course, we were feeding th1: up to the Oc=-ission to reasen g /.; in their own way, but you are.right, up un.il now, we have "A n 15 accepted IAEA acceptance as the only criteria. e '9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What infomation would we be l'; .I 20 - tal.<inc abCut? 21 What are we talking abcut? 7.~ .\\b~%. --ps:~m.. Dw.=_. . ~.. ~

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r, 48 I t 15 MR. BURNETT: 4 E. 2 3 I A COF"4ISSIONER KENNEDY: Ecw would you -- where would 5 you get that, other than through the mechanism that we are )' b 6 talkinc. ahcut rich here? T 4 - 4 XR. BURNETT: You wouldn't. Nobody has ever suggested / p 3 - h e.-

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4.1_"o.I.a *- 4 o n. -.../"._d.., v 9 Now, State does not have that information now, it would cnly be through the action plan that they would be given access to 12 COM'4ISSIONER GII,INSKY : Well, I'm not sure that the 13 infcrmatica doesn't exist in bits and pieces. I - me an, it: doesn' t .. e.. a. _-". e e _4 _= 1,. e d. o c- ;, "w " a_ _ e a.. : a. _., ___ _.. a.,., sc. o_: c,., m=..- .i 1* a _,e u s e _e,,, a d c .u.a. e,,.. e.. _ _ u.., __ _.. _. s o w, 2 w w A w_ l' 3..=_._i.,. _, s e. c a. 2_4.ie , y e cu.. .c .w.a..e, 4 .w we .w4 X _3 _.... s -,,.4..., a.- wls l~ .v :.. .c...: r : :. % w.4. r 3 w y 1ec s_cn structure, you xnew, wae:ner we sncu_: have been c.eing -.'C _w,_ .C.. _4S X* _4 4 o :. w e.w. _4..c t,. s.

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.d e9 O I I l l tl 1 l MR. LA30WITZ: Mr. Kennedy, I didn't hear that last. 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Would you repeat it, please? M' I ((5 3 W., jus t made the point that, you know, MR. SHIRR: the fact that we haven't done dat in the past, now that we have 5 a decision on SECY-78-35A we would be doing that in the future, 6 putting together whatever information we do have. Okav, I'm trv.ing to wrap dis up. / 8 Page 20 shows three things that we think or that I 9 think, at least, are priority Cenmission activities recardin9 i, 10 li IAEA implementation of information. One is, as Ken had ll ,P 1... Incicated in tn.e ntrcc.uction, 1:, in ract, we hace approvec. a 12 [- 3 5 A,- which it appears that we have, we should be requesting State 1 J. >

d..

.; i ..w.1s c. .' d '.,= _'.. C,. e..a.. e u#- '.. o "w 3-5 ii 1 15 :?. action clan 13-1 and I have been asked by **r. Dircks to be sure ..a.ka. e*,*_' # a..- ". =. -"4 d -..s mw.'m "e - "..'.e . cu.' d .3..". c _' ve, _4.". r, 1 7't. a.n..s v : ey.eq.t g .u.,. K.a.n.w c.:. .a _: n_...w,. a n. anC _e a C.n..L.,a n .s p .v o ,, a ~... _'o.ns, w o u.' d.- a. s "..'. 4 '. .w, -" e

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e," - a..e.... '.".".a. i s a A' o.3 - ". e '.'.. a.e o.# 'ha* Scb " ".e. ..e.1..i c.e #. 20 CCM'CSSICNER AHEARNE: Sut what you are saying is tha I n..n...u. _a, g.. .a g g.gge,.= w,- ..g r, _a.. w n n ., g g;.. y a.e 2-a _n a eu ..,.. -".a A,..e, _ e - + 3.. _' - a.-y^,.,"_ c e o_'..- ,. o ~. = '<. e .w - ' ^., ". - a. e m m .a.. x.'a..=.' s o'_' '. c _# s a e '..'.. -

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.sli 50 t.* }!. 6 51 i, scmeo. lace else than =.ut = h e m i n. ---to sMSS. v 2 MR. DIRCKS: A couple of ways to do it. One way 3 has already been sort of ruled out, and that's to go to CMS 4 and we didn't do that. That may be in the supplementals and so 5 on. 6 The second way is to sav., ves, go ahead and do it 7 l and ask.v5SS to say what they are not gcing to do. Another way 9, D 3i is to tell us to go find two ec thre man-years sen:e where else v 9 in the agency and then we will tell you what else we are not n 10 g going to do. But some way or ancther two to threa[an.-years il 4' ._.11ij are going to be needed in this function. n o -1 3 *' COMMISSIONER KINNEDY: So I take it that if you are WW.uZ?./- l h 13 1:o: instructed to proceed on %. _.. 3, you will be ccming back to us

4..

Il l., i. and telling us where ycu are going te get the two to t.hree-man i., I! 15 h years and what you are not going to do? !a 6[ MR. DIRCKS: My natural reaction is to go to NMSS c nd d T S = j zell the= =0 =ut the := =c nree man -ye-i= and they will ccne back and tell us wha they can cr cannot do and then we is l' w '.1 1cok around elsewhere in the acencv.. ,c -.k r fl 23 1 MR. SURNETT: I think it cnly fair to mention at this h

- !ipcint, N.v3S has been cut dras

ica'._y in the new budget.

Yes, we can dc the jcb if we are told, but we will have to identify

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ll 51 .II... ..I, t ,- ll i MR. BURNETT: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I would in any event. 3 MR. SHERR: The other thing is for the Cc= mission to /(}4 .~ consider, it doesn ' t autaratie-=y f 21'

n, but it is a logical 5

fall-on, to identify with State the kind of additional information 6 that I would like to see. 7 My personal feeling is the kind of informatien that 8 we have identified in that working paper in supe. ort of 1C-1, which 1 [ is the rest of the package that we have here, is the kind of

)

1 10lI informatien that we would like to ge ,,I l. 12 I . 12 - ~.. l I' l. 15 N, As I said, tnat paper has been reviewed by the action t. '. 6 plan werking grcup and no concerns have bee.. registered with ' 7h.. e c., - _ A. c ". a. 4...# ^...a. 4 ^. 4. s a. '.', c...' v w _" ". '" e d.4 s -" s s _4.n c _# s i; 0

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a_ a 52 e 6: 1 I t et i! l - ;}. 1 i' inf orm> tion that we could, in fact, request from State under 'T % 2 ,.'r _ C. l- .J.. _=__ _. 3 CHAIRMAN HINDRIE: All right. Very good. I thank A

• E you very much.

5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Let me just ask, that last point, 6 that is laid cut, is it now, as something that you need guidance

l I

'i frem us on, that's the list you can ask if the Cv.. ission wants 1 .. or is that a list that vou intend to ask?

t ti (Cc==issioner Kennedy departed the hearing.)

h MR. SHERR: I had identified this more -- you know -- _1 _? ;l .it.seems to be a logical _hing to me for the Commission to. _1 2,', .J pursue at this time. And, in fact, it would -- as f ar as the " timing that we expect thing's ' to get done, if the Cc:=nission did ,! that, I think it would give a lot more impetus to a 2.ot of ' those actions that can be a scu.rce of information. And, in fact, it~ ie information that is basic to knowing what the implementatien problems are. CCM.MISSICNER 3R.'CFORD : This is the '.is t of items !.! starting en page 21? t ec ).3 2: =/_. C. l- -n .- a. ._.w. e. c,., v -.vu...e.e Oh r.:. e_.:r rv,.r .vR. SHIRR: That's richt. ~ G-I.e.i I. B.i C.,,,,,, _., _ C... ._1 a,. _v. > : we : r=- ? v. _..:.- = cc.I I. _J l r. . c_ _s. :

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i 53 Uil k. l ,1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Ncw, woulc. you view what we 1 2 I have done -- Mr. Chilk will ecliect all the forms and send a l 3 letter down saying, Alternative 3 is approved, would that then 4 trigger your going through the steps and providing that as the 5 list of information we want? 6 MR. SEERR: No. I think if Sam sends down the letter < C'Q 7

j. that said the Cc=missicn. has. approved Alternative 3 o f the 8

action c. lan and instructs staff to.cre=are a letter to State i! c l 10i; then I would say yes. F, - ll.d. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: A.d you and Bill-- I:' 0 will.be I. -- - 12 qI ccming back with sc=ething about where the two to three-=an 13jl,;= years are coming from. Is. that right? .u il e .u..S : .s' g.u. :. ..n. v2 U 15j COMMISSIONER GILINSK'i: thysical security. 16 MR. SEA.:AR: Cc=ds sicner 's ass is tants. 17 COMMISSICNER AHEARNE: E':: has just mentioned hcw =any , awv. er s Onev nave. 1 le 19 C:-D.IR. VAN HEN ;RII: Thank ycu very much. I will f 20 ' adjourn this, and the Cc==ission will =cve on to -he next i I. 3 _- ..m e __ _4 22 (h'nerecpen, che Oc=.issicn moved on to cther .....a. c c.e. w. ...a==.a c w=,w .,o.- w.. c ,24,. ....=e ,=...) s ww ..w- -=

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