ML16202A375
| ML16202A375 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Indian Point  |
| Issue date: | 06/08/2016 |
| From: | NRC Region 1 |
| To: | |
| Dentel G | |
| References | |
| NRC-2451 | |
| Download: ML16202A375 (135) | |
Text
ML16202A375 Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Indian Point 2016 Annual Assessment Meeting Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
Tarrytown, New York Date:
Wednesday, June 8, 2016 Corrections noted in brackets next to original text.
Work Order No.:
NRC-2451 Pages 1-130 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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INDIAN POINT 2016 ANNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING
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WEDNESDAY, JUNE 8, 2016
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The meeting was convened in the Grand Ballroom of the DoubleTree by Hilton, 455 South Broadway, Tarrytown, New York, at 7:00 p.m., Brett Klukan, Facilitator, presiding.
PRESENT:
BRETT KLUKAN, Regional Counsel, Region I GLEN[N] DENTEL, Branch Chief, Division of Reactor Projects BRIAN HAAGENSEN, Senior Resident Inspector, Indian Point Nuclear Power Point DAVID LEW, Deputy Regional Administrator, Region I RAY LORSON, Director, Division of Reactor Safety, Region I MICHAEL MCCOPPIN, Chief, Radiation Protection &
Accident Consequences Branch, Office of New Reactors JACK MCHALE, Chief, Vessels & Internals Integrity Branch, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
2 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
(7:00 p.m.)
2 MR. KLUKAN: Hello, and welcome, this 3
evening, to the 2016 Indian Point Annual Assessment 4
Meeting. Again, my name is Brett Klukan. Normally 5
by day I'm the regional counsel for Region 1.
6 Tonight, however, I'll be facilitating the meeting.
7 In a couple of minutes, once I finish with my opening 8
remarks, I'm going to turn it over to the NRC staff 9
you see assembled here.
10 After their initial presentation, we'll 11 turn it back over to you for your questions and 12 comments. As noted in the revised meeting notice 13 that we published last week, the NRC staff, in 14 response to comments received from the public, 15 broadened its opening presentation to address several 16 issues of public concern, including baffle bolt 17 degradation.
18 Because we have extended the length of 19 the opening presentation, we've correspondingly 20 adjusted the stated end time for the meeting, which 21 will now be at 9:30. For your awareness, the meeting 22 tonight is being recorded, and a transcript will be 23 generated after the meeting. Both the audio and 24 transcript will be posted to the NRC website, so in 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 light of that, I ask that when it is your turn to 1
speak that you please identify yourself. I would 2
also ask, for the sake of the audio recording, that 3
people not speak over each other. Here's how the 4
order of public speakers will be determined this 5
evening. At the registration table outside, there 6
are three sign-up lists, one for those who plan to 7
use at least some of their time to speak in support 8
of continued operation of Indian Point, one for those 9
who plan to speak against continued operation, and 10 one for those who don't plan to express a position 11 one way or the other.
12 I will rotate through these three lists, 13 calling people up to the microphone in ascending 14 chronological order, so 111, 222, 333, the same way 15 CNN --- C-SPAN does it, in essence. If you'd like 16 to speak this evening and you've not already done so, 17 please step outside now to add your name to one of 18 those lists, as during the NRC presentation, we will 19 be making copies of those lists for use during the 20 second half or the second portion of the meeting for 21 public comment and question.
22 I would ask that we keep the front area 23 here clear. If you have something to give to the NRC 24 staff, please hand it to me or to Rich Barkley, who 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 is seated -- maybe not in the room. All right, hand 1
it to me. Now, because of the -- as I noted, the 2
press conferences are still wrapping up, I'm going to 3
break my opening remarks into two halves because I'd 4
like the entire audience to be here for the ground 5
rules. So right now, we're going to go into the NRC 6
opening presentation. Before I go into that, the 7
bathrooms are just straight through those outer 8
doors. The exits are to the back and to the right 9
here -- to my right, your left.
10 While cameras are permitted, please don't 11 obstruct the view of audience members, and please be 12 judicious with the flash. And I would ask all of us, 13 at this time, to please silence your cell phones.
14 I'm not asking you to turn them off; I'm just asking 15 you to put them on silent. Okay, so with that, let 16 me introduce the NRC staff you see assembled here.
17 First, seated in the middle, is David Lew. David Lew 18 is a Deputy Regional Administrator from Region 1.
19 He has been in that position since 20 January 2011. He was appointed to the NRC Senior 21 Executive Service in February 2004. His previous SES 22 assignments include Director, Division of Reactor 23 Projects, and Chief of the Probabilistic Risk 24 Assessment Branch in the Office of Nuclear Regulatory 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Research. He is[was] a resident inspector at 1
Ocean[Oyster] Creek and Indian Point Unit 2, and the 2
Senior Resident Inspector at Indian Point Unit 3.
3 Prior to joining the NRC, Dave spent five years in 4
the Navy's Nuclear Power Program as a submarine 5
officer. Seated next to Dave is Ray Lorson. Mr.
6 Lorson is the Director of the Division of Reactor 7
Safety in the NRC's regional home office. He joined 8
the NRC in 1991 as a reactor engineer in Region 1.
9 He subsequently was a resident inspector 10 at Peach Bottom (Inaudible) nuclear power plants, and 11 the Senior Resident Inspector at Seabrook and 12 (Inaudible) nuclear power plants. Prior to joining 13 the NRC, Mr. Lorson also served in the U.S. Navy.
14 Glen[n] Dentel. Mr. Dentel has been a branch chief 15 in the Division of Reactor Projects, Region 1 since 16 2007. He has provided supervision for multiple 17
- branches, which have included oversight 18 responsibilities for eight nuclear power sites.
19 Mr. Dentel joined the NRC in June 1994 as 20 part of the Nuclear Safety Professional Development 21 Program in the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.
22 Upon graduation from that, in 1996, he served as a 23 resident inspector at Beaver
- Valley, and 24 subsequently, the Senior Resident Inspector at 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Seabrook. In 2015, he received the meritorious 1
service award for his outstanding career as a field 2
inspector and regional manager. Mr. Michael McCoppin 3
--- he is Chief of the Radiation Protection and 4
Accident Consequence Branch in the Division of Site 5
Safety and Environmental Analysis in the Office of 6
(Inaudible) Reactors. Mr. McCoppin joined the NRC 7
in 2006 as an emergency preparedness specialist in 8
the Office of Nuclear Security and Incident Response.
9 In 2009, he transferred to the Office of 10 Nuclear Reactor Regulation as a senior project 11 manager. In 2010, he was selected as a chief of the 12 planning and scheduling branch in the Division of New 13 Reactor Licensing, in the Office of New Reactors and 14 was later reassigned, in 2012, as a dose assessment 15 team lead for the Division of Site Safety and 16 Environmental Analysis in NRO (Phonetic).
17 Prior to joining the NRC, Mr. McCoppin 18 was a nuclear operator in the U.S. Navy, and also 19 worked in the commercial nuclear power industry.
20 Jack McHale is a chief of the Vessels and Internal 21 Integrity Branch in the NRC's Office of Nuclear 22 Reactor Regulation. Jack joined the NRC in 2006 as 23 a mechanical engineer and previously held Branch 24 Chief positions in (Inaudible) performance and 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 testing, as well as operator licensing. Prior to 1
assuming his current duties, he was an associate 2
director for technical issues in the Japan Lessons 3
Learned Division, working on the Agency's response in 4
the Fukushima accident. Before joining the NRC, Jack 5
served as a nuclear-trained submarine officer in the 6
U.S. Navy and worked in the nuclear industry as a 7
licensed senior reactor operator and engineering 8
supervisor.
9 Finally, we have Brian Haagensen. Brian 10 has 44 years of nuclear experience, including the 11 current --- in his current position as a senior 12 resident inspector at Indian Point. He has ten years 13 with nuclear submarines in the U.S. Navy. He has 22 14 years in industry, and 11 years with the NRC, in which 15 he has held positions beyond his current as license 16 examiner and resident inspector at Millstone. He is 17 also a captain, retired in the U.S. Navy. And with 18 that, I will turn it over to Dave to begin the NRC's 19 presentation.
20 MR.
LEW:
Good
- evening, everyone.
21 Welcome to the annual assessment meeting. Our goal 22 today is to be as brief as practical in our opening 23 remarks. And that's to afford you as much time and 24 opportunity to speak as possible. If there is a 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 question or a response desired, I and my staff will 1
also be brief in our responses. Again, we are here 2
to listen to your comments. Before we get to your 3
comments and questions, Glen[n] Dentel, on my right, 4
will give a two-minute overview of NRC's assessment 5
of Indian Point's performance in 2015. That will be 6
followed by Ray Lorson, on my left, who will give a 7
two-minute update on tritium at Indian Point. As 8
Brett indicated, there were two topics that were 9
requested. Those topics were of high public 10 interest, namely baffle-former bolts and AIM gas 11 pipeline. Those two topics will be presented, the 12 first by Jack McHale, that's on the baffle bolt issue, 13 and the gas pipeline by Mike McCoppin. So with that, 14 I'm going to turn it right over to Glen[n] Dentel.
15 MR. DENTEL: Good evening. I will 16 provide you a summary of what the NRC has found 17 through its inspection program at Indian Point.
18 Overall, Entergy operated the plant safely and within 19 the condition of their license. Our 2015 assessment 20 is based on over 10,000 hours0 days <br />0 hours <br />0 weeks <br />0 months <br /> of independent 21 inspection of how Entergy operated and maintained 22 Indian Point.
23 The NRC has three on-site resident 24 inspectors that observe day-to-day control room 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 activities, maintenance and testing of safety 1
systems, and response to plant issues. Our 2
specialist inspector from the NRC Region 1 Office 3
also spent many weeks on site looking at areas such 4
as emergency preparedness, radiation safety, fire 5
protection, operator performance, and ongoing 6
inspection efforts in the degradation of 7
baffle-former bolts. Although Entergy operated 8
Indian Point safely, the NRC inspectors did identify 9
some deficiencies or findings. We assess these 10 findings to be of very low safety significance.
11 In other words, these findings did not 12 have any significant effect on public health and 13 safety, and Entergy took timely actions to fix those 14 problems. Our assessment process also includes 15 reviewing performance indicator data to measure 16 things like unplanned shutdowns. For Indian Point 17 Unit 3, the number of unplanned shutdowns exceeded 18 our threshold of greater than three unplanned 19 shutdowns or trips for 7,000 hours0 days <br />0 hours <br />0 weeks <br />0 months <br /> of operations.
20 This caused the performance indicator to 21 go from green to our threshold for white. Our process 22 has Unit 3 transitioned to additional oversight based 23 on this white performance indicator. What that means 24 is the NRC will conduct a supplemental inspection at 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Unit 3 to ensure that they have fully understood the 1
root causes of the shutdowns, evaluated any common 2
cause between them, and take appropriate corrective 3
actions. All Unit 2 performance indicators continue 4
to remain in the green area. Overall, our conclusion 5
is that Indian Point operated safely and continues to 6
be operated safely. We will provide independent 7
oversight, and have, and will review their actions to 8
address the increase in the number of unplanned 9
shutdowns at Unit 3. I'd like to turn it over to Ray 10 Lorson, who will discuss another area regarding 11 Indian Point.
12 MR. LORSON: Thank you, Glen[n]. Good 13 evening, my name is Ray Lorson, and I will provide a 14 brief update on the status of the tritium leak that 15 occurred at Indian Point. In February of this year, 16 Entergy identified, through routine sampling, that 17 there had been an increase in the tritium 18 concentrations observed from monitoring wells that 19 were located at the Indian Point site.
20 Entergy initiated an investigation and 21 informed the NRC of their results. The NRC conducted 22 an immediate inspection, consisting of our resident 23 inspector support, support from our regional office 24 in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania that included 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 specialist inspectors in health physics. We were 1
assisted by a hydrogeologist from our Office of 2
Research, and we were accompanied by our partners 3
with the State of New York and the Environmental 4
Protection Agency. The inspection is still ongoing, 5
and we anticipate issuing a report later this year 6
that will confirm the results of our findings. What 7
I can say, to this point, is we believe that the leak 8
has been identified and stopped. That leak was 9
attributed to activities associated with the 10 refueling water storage tank.
11 We have observed Entergy's initial 12 corrective actions, which have included searching for 13 the source of the leakage, trying to identify the 14 pathway, how that leak got out into the environment, 15 as well as actions to provide some maintenance for 16 systems inside the building that are used to process 17 water. Our overall conclusions, at this point, are 18 that this leak presents no impact to public health 19 and safety.
20 We did a very conservative bounding 21 calculation and have determined that the actual dose 22 consequence or hazard from this event would be a small 23 fraction of what's permitted under NRC regulations, 24 and a very, very small, tiny fraction of what all of 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 us receive every year as normal background radiation.
1 And with that, I would like to turn over the 2
presentation to Jack McHale, who is going to update 3
us on the baffle bolts.
4 MR. MCHALE: Good evening. Again, my 5
name is Jack McHale. I'm from the NRC's Office of 6
Nuclear Reactor Regulation. And again, would just 7
like to turn the discussion to the issue of the bolts.
8 The specific type of bolts that are of interest at 9
Indian Point 2 are known as baffle-former bolts.
10 These bolts, shown on the drawing there, measure about 11 two inches long, and are about five eighths of an 12 inch in diameter.
13 And they hold a series of vertical metal 14 plates, which are labeled as baffle on the drawing, 15 into place inside the reactor vessel. These plates 16 help to direct the water up through the fuel 17 assemblies in the core, and that ensures proper 18 cooling of the fuel. They also provide some lateral 19 restraint to the fuel assemblies within the core 20 barrel.
21 They really are a part of a system that 22 would support the operation of other systems that 23 make sure that the core can be cooled in any normal 24 or emergency operating condition and that a reactor 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 could always be safely shut down. And on the next 1
slide, you'll see how this assembly fits into the 2
reactor, itself. The baffle plates are shown in 3
purple. And they're attached to eight levels of 4
horizontal plates, and those are called the former 5
plates. Those are highlighted in gray. And those, 6
in turn, are connected to the reactor core barrel.
7 The bolts in question are used to attach these 8
vertical plates to the horizontal plates. Now, this 9
spring, when Indian Point Unit 2 entered its refueling 10 and maintenance outage in early March, one of the 11 planned activities was to perform ultrasonic testing 12 of the plant's baffle-former bolts.
13 Now these inspections were required by 14 the NRC as part of necessary aging-management 15 programs that support license renewal activities.
16 The ultrasonic testing method does not estimate the 17 size of the flaw detected, so any indication is 18 conservatively treated as a failed bolt, even though 19 the bolt may not be cracked all the way through and 20 would still, then, have some load-bearing capacity.
21 Okay, on the next slide, you'll see a sketch of the 22 baffle assembly showing the placement of a fuel 23 assembly.
24 The interior of that baffle would be 25
14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 packed solid with fuel assemblies when the core is 1
fully loaded. And on the right-hand side, you can 2
just see a close-up of one of the baffle-former bolts.
3 The testing work at Indian Point and other sites 4
across the U.S. was an outgrowth of problems that 5
were noted with the bolts, first actually identified 6
in power plants in France, as far back as the late 7
1980s. And some degradation has also been found more 8
recently in baffle-former bolts in plants in this 9
country. The degradation mechanism is known as 10 irradiation-assisted stress corrosion cracking.
11 Sounds like a lot of words, but it is a known and 12 expected cracking that occurs over a long period of 13 time because the metal is exposed to neutron 14 radiation, which comes from the reactor core, and 15 also stresses that just are part of the normal 16 operation of the plant.
17 Ultrasonic testing, again, is used to 18 determine if any of the stainless steel bolts have 19 developed any signs of degradation and would, 20 therefore, need to be replaced. In response to the 21 expected aging of components, including baffle-former 22
- bolts, the Electric Power Research Institute 23 developed a standard industry program for aging 24 management of pressurized water reactor vessel 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 internals.
1 And they submitted that plan to the NRC 2
back in January of 2009. The NRC staff reviewed the 3
approach and evaluated, in an Agency safety 4
evaluation, in December 2011. And under this 5
industry standard, PWRs, pressurized water reactors 6
like Indian Point Unit 2, would conduct an initial 7
ultrasonic examination of all their baffle-former 8
bolts under the aging management programs as part of 9
license renewal commitments. The next slide's another 10 view illustrating the construction of the baffle 11 assembly. The baffle-former bolts you can see on the 12 left-hand image as those horizontal rows of dots.
13 Those are the bolt heads. In the course of the 14 evaluations at Indian Point Unit 2, it was determined 15 that 227 of the 832 baffle-former bolts in the reactor 16 vessel were potentially degraded.
17 This number includes 14 bolts that could 18 not be properly accessed for testing, so they were 19 conservatively assumed to be failed, and also, at 20 that time, 2 of the 227 bolt heads were observed to 21 be missing. One has been recovered, and for the 22 other, an evaluation was performed to ensure that the 23 unit can safely be operated with the loose part.
24 The number of degraded baffle-former 25
16 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 bolts was the largest seen to date at a U.S. nuclear 1
power reactor, so the NRC is closely monitoring the 2
situation for both Indian Point, and also for any 3
generic implications it may have for the industry.
4 Once the ultrasonic testing was completed at Indian 5
Point, Entergy geared up and began replacing all of 6
the 227 bolts, as well as an additional 51 bolts to 7
help further ensure the structural integrity of the 8
plates. The new bolts are made of a type of stainless 9
steel that is less susceptible to degradation, and 10 they also have an improved design that reduces the 11 stresses that occur at the bolt head. The NRC has 12 closely followed these activities through on-site 13 inspectors, and also using inspectors and staff with 14 expertise in this area. Analysis of the condition 15 was also developed, including for the replacement 16
- work, and also for any implication to the 17 baffle-former bolts in Indian Point Unit 3.
18 In the meantime, the company has notified 19 us that it intends to move up its schedule for 20 inspecting the Indian Point Unit 3 baffle-former 21 bolts. Those assessments originally were scheduled 22 for 2019, but they will now be carried out in 2017.
23 We should also note that Indian Point Unit 3 is 24 believed to be less susceptible to the condition for 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 several
- reasons, including that it has fewer 1
operational cycles.
2 I'd just like to wrap up by summarizing 3
a few key points. Again, first, the baffle bolts 4
were inspected specifically for the purpose of 5
identifying and correcting degradation, as part of 6
the NRC-required aging management programs.
7 Regarding Unit 2, the NRC has independently reviewed 8
the company's analyses and observed the bolt 9
replacement activities on site at Indian Point. Our 10 inspectors have determined the bolt replacements, 11 including the additional replacement bolts for 12 increased performance, and the technical evaluations 13 are sufficient to demonstrate that the Indian Point 14 Unit 2 baffle-former assembly will perform as 15 intended under the most limiting postulated accident 16 conditions.
17 Regarding the currently operating Indian 18 Point Unit 3, our inspectors have concluded that while 19 the baffle-former bolts are subject to similar 20 conditions, we do not have an immediate safety concern 21 because there are likely fewer baffle-former bolts 22 affected, primarily due to less time in service and 23 the differences in the operating history.
24 There are also no indications of loose 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 parts or fuel leaks, and we continue to review the 1
plant owner's monitoring of plant parameters and 2
their technical evaluations. The results of our 3
inspections will be documented in a
publicly 4
available inspection report. And as I previously 5
mentioned, the NRC continues to closely monitor this 6
situation, is alert to potential generic 7
implications, and will be evaluating the need for 8
further regulatory actions.
9 MR. MCCOPPIN: Hello, and good evening.
10 I'm Mike McCoppin, from the Office of New Reactors.
11 I'm going to briefly discuss NRC's involvement with 12 the Algonquin Pipeline. This slide shows where the 13 pipeline is going to be installed in the vicinity of 14 Indian Point. Spectra Energy has received approval 15 from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, or 16 FERC, to construct a 42-inch pipeline in the vicinity 17 of Indian Point.
18 FERC approved the project on March 3, 19 2015, and also authorized construction in the 20 vicinity on September 24, 2015. Spectra said it 21 expects the pipeline to be operational later this 22 year. NRC's role is to ensure the pipeline does not 23 impact nuclear safety at Indian Point. The NRC 24 became involved in the review to the extent that 25
19 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Entergy was required by the NRC to perform an 1
evaluation, whether a rupture to the pipeline could 2
adversely impact the safety or the safe shutdown of 3
two operating reactors.
4 The NRC, though not required, chose to 5
independently conduct an assessment, and also a risk 6
assessment and inspection. Our conclusion, based on 7
a thorough peer-reviewed analysis, was that the plant 8
could safely shut down in the event of a pipeline 9
rupture. Analysis assumed that there was a complete 10 rupture of the pipeline. More specifically we 11 determined that neither a pressure wave, nor a thermal 12 heat flux pipeline rupture would adversely affect 13 safe operation or safe shutdown. Our independent 14 confirmatory analysis resulted in less than one pound 15 per square inch pressure wave, capable of breaking 16 glass, or less than a 12.5 kilowatt per meter squared 17 heat flux, capable of melting plastic at the plant's 18 outer security fencing.
19 Next slide. This is a table that shows 20 both over-pressure and heat flux thresholds and their 21 related consequences. Typically, you can see one 22 pound of pressure is what would shatter glass, and 23 also a thermal heat flux, 12.6, which would melt 24 plastic. The maximum heat flux at the security 25
20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 government controlled area was about half of that, 1
which melts plastic, which would be tolerable to 2
escaping personnel at that fence.
3 As you can see, there is a considerable 4
amount of safety margin for both, even at the fence, 5
which is 100 feet away from safety-related equipment.
6 Next slide. This slide is an overview of the Indian 7
Point site, which shows both the existing pipelines, 8
which is the blue line, and then the new pipeline's 9
location, which is the green. The new 42-inch 10 pipeline would not be located within the plant's 11 protected area, that has --- which is a high security 12 area, which contains the reactor buildings, spent 13 fuel pools, and other key infrastructures. Instead, 14 it will traverse to the south about 1,500 feet. It's 15 actually greater than that, close to 1,600 feet, about 16 the length of five football fields. It's hundreds 17 of feet from the protected area and robust 18 safety-related equipment.
19 In assessing our models, we also reviewed 20 the results against studies on actual natural gas 21 pipeline explosions. There have been 42-inch 22 pipeline explosions. And these actual --- the impact 23 was significantly less than shown by our models. In 24 a Transportation Safety Board of Canada assessment, 25
21 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 they saw less than 900 feet blast radius for 42-inch 1
line failures. This blast radius was based on the 2
burnt grass from the actual heat flux.
3 The equipment needed to shut down and 4
maintain the plant in a safe shutdown condition is 5
over 1,580 feet away from the new gas pipeline and 6
would not be impacted by the pipeline explosion.
7 There's even a lot more margin between the fence line 8
and the first safety-related equipment, so we're 9
talking roughly 1,900 feet from the pipe to a 10 safety-related piece of equipment. While not 11 required, Spectra is putting in place special 12 precautions to enhance the safety of the piping.
13 This includes steel pipe that is about 40 percent 14 thicker to the area traversing close to the site, 15 about three-quarters inch of steel. It will be 16 buried four feet deep in engineered backfill, and 17 also have additional corrosion protection, and all 18 welds will be carefully examined prior to being 19 buried.
20 Reinforced concrete protective slabs will 21 be also placed on top of the pipe that's closest to 22 the site, as buried, and there will be markers also 23 placed in the ground to prevent any inadvertent future 24 excavation. The map also shows -- like I talked 25
22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 about before, there is existing pipelines for the 1
blue. There is a 26-inch pipeline, and also a 30-inch 2
pipeline, which have been in operation since 1952 and 3
1965, respectively.
4 Once the 42-inch pipeline is made 5
operational, the 26-inch pipeline is going to be taken 6
out of service. When NRC inspectors went to the site 7
to perform their inspection, they physically walked 8
down where the new pipeline would be laid and built.
9 And what they were doing is they were verifying any 10 of the assumptions made by Entergy in their analysis.
11 And they actually walked down with digital equipment 12 and verified actual distances from the pipe to any 13 safety-related equipment, so the NRC staff can 14 conduct their own independent analysis. They also 15 reviewed the qualifications of the contractor who 16 conducted the company's analysis and whether 17 Entergy's acceptance of the report was consistent 18 with its quality assurance program and standards.
19 So, a few key items from this brief presentation is 20 independent and diverse analysis from Entergy.
21 And NRC, again, said they conducted their 22 own peer-reviewed, independent analysis, along with 23 Department of Transportation also had conducted their 24 analysis. They were all very close and favorable of 25
23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 each other. Actual explosions from 42-inch pipelines 1
were confirmed by NRC analysis, and the NRC analysis 2
was much more conservative than those actual 3
explosions. (Inaudible) equipment needed to shut 4
down will remain available during a
pipeline 5
explosion. Thank you.
6 MR. KLUKAN: Okay, everyone, I broke down 7
my initial presentation into two halves, so I might 8
stumble here and there trying to remember what I said 9
and what I didn't already, so bear with me. All 10 right, again, for those of you new in the room we are 11
--- the NRC is creating an official recording of this 12 meeting, an audio recording. The audio transcript, 13 unedited, and the written transcript will be posted 14 to the NRC website, where you can -- the same place 15 where you'd find the meeting notice for this meeting.
16 Also, the NRC slide presentation will be posted there, 17 as well. All right, and again, bear with me, lists 18 for speakers, they have now been copied, I have them 19 up here with me. I will rotate through them, calling 20 the first speaker from each one, then the second 21 speaker, and so on.
22 When I call people to the microphone, 23 I'll call generally three people at a time, just so 24 you have a couple minutes to go over to get to the 25
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 microphone, and prepare yourself, whatnot. If you 1
need to have a microphone brought to you, please raise 2
your hand at that time, and I'll make sure that either 3
I bring my microphone over to you or another 4
microphone is brought to you, okay.
5 I would ask again that we keep the front 6
area here clear, if you need to bring something or 7
would like to hand something to the NRC staff, please 8
hand it to me. In an effort to give as many people 9
as possible an opportunity to speak this evening, 10 please limit yourself to three minutes when speaking.
11 Know that I am going to hold people to that. Here's 12 how I plan to notify speakers. For those of you who 13 were here last year, you may remember these.
14 Hopefully, I'll hold them right side up this year. A 15 yellow card will be held up when you have one minute 16 left. I did receive some comments last year that 17 speakers often didn't notice that I was holding up a 18 sign, so at the two-minute warning, which is what 19 this represents, meaning you have one minute left, 20 you're also going to hear this. At three minutes, 21 you'll see this sign, and you'll hear the bell twice.
22 You have ten seconds as a grace period to 23 wrap up. At three minutes, ten seconds, I will cut 24 you off. If you're mid-sentence -- I don't --- it 25
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 doesn't --- regardless of where you are in your talk, 1
you will be cut off. And that is not me trying to 2
be rude. The question is that there are more people 3
here who signed up to speak than we have time to give 4
to all of them, based on the stated end time for the 5
meeting.
6 So my goal is to get as many people to 7
speak as I possibly can, and to put everyone on equal 8
footing regarding speaking time. So to provide 9
allowances to some people, whereas not to others, 10 that would be unfair. So everyone gets exactly, at 11 most, three minutes ten seconds to speak. Okay? We 12 already have, as I kind of noted, over 70 people 13 who've signed up to speak this evening. That would 14 push us beyond our 9:30 end time.
15 PARTICIPANT: Extend it.
16 MR. KLUKAN: We'll see how the meeting 17 goes. I'm not going to rule that out. I can't say 18 we can extend it for a long period of time, but based 19 on the hotel availability and the availability of the 20 police officers in the meeting, but depending on how 21 things are going, we may do that. I'll make that 22 notification later on in the meeting, depending upon, 23 you know, how the meeting is progressing.
24 Right now, we have about 70 people to 25
26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 speak -- or 69, exactly. We have --- I'll read it 1
to you. We have 36 on the against list, 10 on what 2
I'm calling the neutral list, and then 23 on the pro 3
list. As --- everyone who wants to speak may not get 4
an opportunity to speak tonight. Because of that, the 5
NRC staff will stay outside the meeting area to take 6
any little questions after the meeting. Also, we 7
have comment cards at the registration table.
8 If you want to write down what you were 9
going to ask or what you were going to say, and then 10 give it to me or to another NRC staff member, we will 11 append that to the written transcript. Also, if you 12 want to email or give me any other written comments, 13 I will gladly post those, along with the written 14 transcript, to the NRC website. And my email address 15 is in the meeting notice. So, on to the ground rules 16 for this evening. I recognize that many of you have 17 strongly held opinions concerning the matters likely 18 to be discussed tonight. However, I implore you, I 19 beseech you to respect each other. So please do not 20 disrupt each other, just as you would not want to be 21 disrupted during your three minutes at the 22 microphone. Please respect the speaking time of 23 others. I ask this not for my sake. This isn't about 24 me or the NRC staff. It's rather for each and every 25
27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 one of you who came out this evening and took time 1
out of your busy lives, as citizens, to be involved 2
in this meeting tonight to come to have something to 3
say or to ask. So it's out of respect for each other 4
that we respect each other's speaking time. With 5
that said, you have every right to disagree with what 6
you hear tonight.
7 You have every right to voice that 8
disagreement during your turn to speak. And your 9
three minutes are your three minutes to do with as 10 you will and to say with as you will, as long as 11 you're not engaging in personal invectives, and I'll 12 touch upon that. So again, please be civil to each 13 other. I ask that we all refrain, again, from 14 invectives or other derogatory personal remarks.
15 There's no place for that here tonight. Regarding 16 disruptive behavior, I play by a three strikes rule.
17 Disruptive behavior includes booing or hissing, 18 generally trying to disrupt another person from 19 speaking, speaking out over another person while they 20 are speaking, trying to throw anything or otherwise 21 create some kind of disruption while someone is 22 speaking and whatnot, or trying to speak out of turn, 23 or not ceding the microphone.
24 The first two will be verbal warnings, 25
28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the third, you will be asked to leave. If you do not 1
leave, local law enforcement will escort you from the 2
room. I didn't have to do that last year, and I hope 3
not to do that again tonight. So --- you may think 4
this is silly, what I'm about to ask you to do, but 5
you all came here, and many of you came here with the 6
intent to speak, so I ask, out of respect for each 7
other, if you could raise your hands, and by doing 8
so, say, "I'm agreeing to play by the ground rules 9
that I won't disrupt each other."
10 I'd really like to see every hand raised 11 in this audience. All right, let the record know 12 that people thought that was a great idea. Okay, now 13 let me be plain as possible regarding this next point.
14 Any threatening gestures, any threatening statements, 15 anything that remotely can be construed as a violent 16 action will be cause for immediate ejection from the 17 room, no questions asked, by local law enforcement.
18 If you feel threatened, please let me know, or tell 19 one of the NRC security personnel or one of the police 20 officers stationed around the room.
21 Signs and props, you're welcome to hold 22 them up periodically. I ask you not to keep them up 23 in front of your head the entire time, just in case 24 you're blocking people, but you're welcome to hold 25
29 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 them up as you will. Again, props, you're welcome 1
to bring them up when it is your turn to speak.
2 Before we begin with our public speakers, 3
I would now like to recognize that we have, in the 4
audience, several representatives from congressional 5
- offices, Senator
- Schumer, Senator Gillibrand, 6
Congresswoman
- Lowey, Congressman
- Engel, and 7
Congressman Maloney (Applause).
8 Now before we begin with our public 9
speakers, I'd like to invite any other members, any 10 other elected officials or representatives who I've 11 not already introduced to please feel free to 12 introduce themselves, and if you'd like to give any 13 prepared statements, I will not hold you to the 14 three-minute rule, but please be cognizant of that 15 out of respect for the others in the audience. If 16 you are an elected official and would like to be 17 recognized this evening and/or make a prepared 18 statement, please queue to the microphone at this 19 time. All right, I was not expecting that. Going 20 once, going twice, we have someone?
21 PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: I'm sorry; could you go ---
23 I'm going to give you this because we're not going to 24 pick that up on the transcript.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS.
PARKER:
Good evening.
I'm 1
Catherine (Phonetic)
Parker.
I'm with the 2
Westchester County Board of Legislators, and I chair 3
the Energy and Regional Efficiencies Committee.
4 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. And again, just to 5
(Applause) just a note, when you do go to speak, 6
please introduce yourself if you'd like, just for the 7
transcript purposes. Also, if you were one of the 8
ones to please -- or if you submitted slides as part 9
of your presentation, we do have those queued up and 10 ready to go. Please announce that when you get to 11 the microphone, just so I know or Nick[Nik] knows to 12 get them set up on the screen for you. All right.
13 So let's begin. First up is Judy Allen (Phonetic),
14 followed by Paul Blanch (Phonetic), and then David 15 Morse (Phonetic). Again, Judy Allen, followed by 16 Paul Blanch, and then David Morse.
17 MS. ALLEN: Hi, my name is Judy Allen.
18 I'm here from (Inaudible), but I'm here -- I signed 19 the list that said advocate, so I'm not sure what 20 that is, but I am advocating for the 12,966 people 21 who signed this petition online to close Indian Point.
22 It will be delivered to members of Congress, Senator 23 Barbara Boxer, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, Senator 24 Chuck Schumer, Senator (Inaudible), Senator Bernie 25
31 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Sanders, Representative Eliot Engel, Representative 1
Nita Lowey, and Representative Sean Patrick Maloney.
2 I'm not going to take my time limits to 3
read the petition. I will send it to you.
4 Basically, I've been coming to NRC meetings for a 5
long time, ever since I moved up here. And, I need 6
to tell you that you no longer have any credibility.
7 You have not been doing your job. I understand from 8
a gentleman who was the head of NYPA for several years 9
that you may have done your job back before 2001, but 10 in my recollection of the last 15 years, you have 11 basically been a lapdog for Entergy and the running 12 of Indian Point.
13 There are so many things that are wrong 14 at that plant, and you continue to say, "Oh, no, 15 everything's fine. The safety is fine. It's green.
16 It's white." It's not any of those things. It's 17 really bad. Better speakers than I, who spoke at the 18 press conference downstairs, will tell you exactly 19 what those things are, especially Paul Blanch, who's 20 coming next. I want to say that the idea of putting 21 a 42-inch gas pipeline next to Indian Point, running 22 under the Hudson River and next to Indian Point, is 23 pure insanity. And for the drawing on a napkin that 24 was submitted to (Inaudible) or to the NRC that was 25
32 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 approved to go forward and do that, that is total 1
insanity.
2 And the only other thing I want to say is 3
that to allow the restart of Unit 2 without a root 4
cause analysis is gross negligence on your part. You 5
are the NRC. That is gross negligence. I wish I 6
had, in my piggybank, enough money to sue you -- and 7
a violation of the Administrative Procedures Act. To 8
not close down Indian Point 3 and inspect it, you're 9
waiting for it to shut down for refueling. That's 10 insanity, too. Thank you very much. (Applause).
11 MR. BLANCH. Thanks, Rich. While you're 12 brining up my slides that I submitted, I'd like to 13 compliment the NRC on some positive things. We're 14 all ex-Navy nuclear people, every one of the panel, 15 including myself. What I'd like to start off with, 16 and I'm going to try to stay within the three minutes, 17 what is going on here with respect to the gas line 18 and the NRC's confirmatory analysis. This is the 19 first time I've said this publicly. Entergy and 20 Spectra have submitted false documentation, in 21 violation of NRC regulations. And this is a criminal 22 action. Take a look at 10 C.F.R. 50.111. These are 23 criminal actions. The NRC are the cops, the 24 prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner.
25
33 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 What do they do? They look the other way at criminal 1
actions.
2 The Office of Investigations has refused 3
to investigate those well-documented charges. The 4
director of the Office of Investigation has resigned.
5 The NRC has ignored many of its own regulations, 6
directives, and policies. The NRC refuses to meet 7
with me and any of my technical experts.
8 The NRC's Office of Investigation, 9
responsible for waste, fraud, and abuse, has publicly 10 acknowledged they are investigating you guys for your 11 failures of accepting false information and not 12 prosecuting criminal actions, such as with Martha 13 Stewart, who didn't endanger 21 million people.
14 NRC's approval of FERC should be 15 withdrawn until the OIG investigation is complete.
16 The consequences of your wrongdoing, given Indian 17 Point's
- age, history, mismanagement, lack of 18 oversight, and demographics, is the most threatening 19 man-made facility in the world. I can explain that 20 later. The risk of a major radioactive release is 21 more than 100 times greater than acceptable by the 22 NRC standards. Twenty million persons are in danger.
23 Trillions of uninsured property damage is possible.
24 Impacts on vital structures in the control room has 25
34 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 never been analyzed, contrary to what was previously 1
said. Analysis has been based on false information 2
provided by Entergy.
3 We also have pump fatalities and latent 4
fatalities, and we have uninhabitable land for 5
generations, such as at Fukushima. We absolutely 6
need an independent risk assessment requested by the 7
- senators, the governors, and numerous federal 8
officials. NRC has no pipeline expertise. Similar 9
studies were done for Indian Point 6 and 7.
10 They were done right, as with Cove Point 11 and the facility in New Mexico. My three minutes 12 time is up. I've submitted three questions two weeks 13 ago, and I expect the NRC to now respond to those 14 three questions that I previously submitted, and not 15 with, "Hey, we will get back to you." That's why I 16 submitted them early. Thank you.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. (Applause).
18 David Morse.
19 PARTICIPANT: I have slides. If I can 20 just make a quick comment here. We have your slides, 21 Paul. We will put that in the record. But also, as 22 you know, the NRC gets significant oversight from the 23 inspector general, general accounting office. As 24 such, we will take these slides and we will ensure 25
35 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that we provide to the inspector general, as well.
1 MR. BLANCH: I want the answers to my 2
three questions I submitted three weeks ago.
3 PARTICIPANT: That's right.
4 PARTICIPANT: Okay, let us respond to the 5
questions. Thank you for providing the questions.
6 We're going to have Glen[n] Dentel here provide the 7
questions and the answers.
8 MR. BLANCH: That's why I submitted them 9
three weeks ago, so I could get answers. I never get 10 answers from you guys.
11 PARTICIPANT: Yes, he's going to provide 12 them now. Sorry for being unclear.
13 PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible.)
14 MR. DENTEL: One of the questions was, 15 was the buried portion of the gas pipeline been 16 analyzed by the licensee for potential impact on 17 Indian Point? And yes, it has --- we analyzed the 18 underground portions. Mr. McCoppin went through the 19 analysis that we've done, and we've concluded that it 20 would not impact safety at Indian Point. Second 21 question was has the fuel oil storage tanks been 22 verified to be free of flammable content? That has 23 been looked into. The fuel oil tanks concerned were 24 formerly used to generate super heat for Indian Point 25
36 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Unit 1. Indian Point Unit 1 was permanently shut 1
down in 1974. Since that time, the fuel oil tanks 2
have been drained, deconditioned, and abandoned on 3
site. Supply piping to the oil tanks has been 4
disconnected. If any residual oil remains in this 5
tank, it would not represent any concern.
6 MR. BLANCH: That is not an answer.
7 MR. DENTEL: Okay. Finally, the last 8
question was have the plant operators and fire brigade 9
been properly trained to combat a gas leak or 10 explosion of the gas lines that are located within 11 400 feet of Unit 3 control room and switch gear rooms?
12 As a condition of their license, Indian 13 Point is required to have a fire protection program, 14 where plant operators are trained as fire brigade 15 members to respond and fight a comprehensive variety 16 of plant fires. The NRC regularly inspects the 17 ability of the fire brigade to respond through our 18 reactor oversight process, through our baseline 19 inspection program. We verified the site fire 20 brigade maintains its ability to respond to 21 extinguish plant fires. In addition, for plant fires 22 outside of the protected area, local fire brigades 23 would respond to that.
24 MR. BLANCH: That is not an answer to my 25
37 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 direct question. The answer is yes or no.
1 MR.
KLUKAN:
I appreciate 2
disagreements with how the NRC has chosen to answer 3
your question, and I will personally commit Glen[n]
4 to standing outside this room after the meeting for 5
as long as necessary, in order to address your 6
questions. So, but, at this point, we need to move 7
on. So, one little comment because I forgot to say 8
this at the outset. If you are using slides, please 9
let Nick[Nik] know -- just say next slide when you're 10 ready to progress forward, okay? Next up is David 11 Morse, thank you.
12 MR. MORSE: My name is David Morse, and 13 I'm an electrical engineer. I chose to work in the 14 nuclear industry because I consider myself to be an 15 environmentalist, and I want to support carbon-free 16 energy. I want to make something perfectly clear.
17 New York is replacing nuclear with natural gas.
18 Replacing fossil fuel should be the priority. The 19 data I will use comes mainly from NYISO, National 20 Renewable Energy Laboratories, and Solar Energy 21 Industries Association. Four coal plants were going 22 to shut down but are now being repowered into natural 23 gas, Dunkirk, Cayuga, Danskammer, and Greenidge. All 24 four were endorsed by the governor and protested by 25
38 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 environmental groups, such as Earth Justice, The 1
Sierra Club, and the NPCA. Danskammer's online as 2
of 2014. The other three are pending. Danskammer, 3
along with Bowline and Roseton, three fossil fuel 4
plants on the Hudson River, are touted as the main 5
reason Indian Point isn't needed.
6 They are the contingency for Indian 7
Point. In 2014, they generated 1870.1 gigawatt hours 8
of electricity, much less than they are capable of, 9
because they only run if the power is needed. If 10 Indian Point shuts down, they will increase their 11 output by up to 9.25 times, and it will come mainly 12 from these three natural gas plants. They would 13 release nearly 9.58 million metric tons equivalent 14 CO2 to do this, and nobody is building enough solar 15 and wind to make up the difference.
16 Natural gas used for electric power in 17 New York has risen by 75 percent over the last ten 18 years. More natural gas is being added to the grid, 19 according to NYISO 2015 load and capacity study. Next 20 slide. This graph breaks down (Inaudible) carbon free 21 electricity generation for 2014. You can see there, 22 Indian Point is 22 percent of existing carbon free 23 energy. Fitzpatrick, scheduled to close later this 24 year, is 8 percent. Solar and wind only make up 6 25
39 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 percent, and 44 percent of New York State electricity 1
still comes from fossil fuels. Next slide. The 2
existing growth rate of wind, combined with the growth 3
rate for solar, it would take 20 years to replace the 4
carbon free energy generated in 2014 by Indian Point, 5
27 years if you add Fitzpatrick.
6 In order to show you the scale of this, 7
I took the national average land use for wind farms, 8
divided by two. I added 3 percent capacity factor 9
to the national wind average to calculate a 10 hypothetical modern wind farm to replace Indian 11 Point. It would require 260,000 acres and 3,090 12 two-megawatt turbines. That is 95 percent of 13 Westchester County. These turbines are around 400 14 feet tall. The wind farm would fluctuate by up to 15 309 megawatts within an hour. If you compared the 16 natural gas industry to the -- thank you -- nuclear 17 industry, the regulations are not even comparable.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Again, I apologize for 20 interrupting you again. Two things I wanted to 21 mention is in response to comments we received last 22 year, people were confused about where we were in the 23 speaking order. So what I actually have in front of 24 me are copies of the lists, so the original lists are 25
40 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 outside. If you want to step outside the room and 1
see where we are, and periodically, I'll give you the 2
number of what number speaker we're at. But you can 3
also feel free -- those three minutes are yours to do 4
with as you will. And by that I also mean if you 5
want to donate it to someone else, you're free to do 6
so. It's up to you.
7 Granted, it's still only three minutes, 8
but they're those three minutes to do with as you 9
want. We did have one elected official come into the 10 room after I made announcement, so I'd like to invite 11 Mayor Richard Thomas of the City of Mount Vernon, New 12 York to please come to the microphone. And I was 13 told he would like to give some prepared remarks.
14 MAYOR THOMAS: Good evening. In my city, 15 like so many other cities, people don't spend a lot 16 of time thinking about where their power comes from.
17 However, it does make a difference in their lives, 18 especially in communities of color such as Mount 19 Vernon. There's nothing clean about increased toxic 20 conditions, nor is it smart to cut power when we need 21 it most. As another sweltering summer approaches, 22 it is important that Indian Point stay on to maintain 23 an electric reliability for the state system, 24 particularly the down state region. The threat of a 25
41 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 blackout is a serious matter, and as mayor, I worry 1
about that almost every day. And the impact is far 2
more dangerous for seniors and those with respiratory 3
ailments. Mount Vernon is among the top 15 dense 4
cities in America and contains a disproportionate 5
amount of people facing significant health 6
disparities.
7 Policy makers must prioritize the public 8
safety of all New Yorkers, especially their own 9
constituents. However, they must also ensure that 10 health safety is part of the dialogue. Too often, 11 minority communities must bear the burden of 12 pollution and poor air quality.
13 Closing Indian Point would make this 14 situation even worse, as fossil fuel plants would be 15 necessary to produce the electricity required to make 16 New York City -- keep New York City's lights on, as 17 well as let's keep in mind that importing foreign 18 power or building cooling towers are not viable 19 answers.
20 So as mayor of the City of Mount Vernon, 21 representative of 70,000 people, I urge all to embrace 22 the findings of the NRC that Indian Point is safe.
23 It should continue to operate. I thank you all for 24
42 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 having this hearing and giving us a platform to speak.
1 Thank you so much.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. One additional 3
thing, I see a lot of people standing up. Are there 4
enough seats out there? Because what we would like 5
are people not to be seated in the aisle if they don't 6
have to. I would ask if people can do that thing 7
where you squish in next to each other and make some 8
friends, that would be great. I would like everyone 9
to actually have a seat who would like a seat. We 10 actually have another elected official, Manna Jo 11 Greene.
12 MS. GREENE: Thank you. My name is Manna 13 Jo Greene. I am an Ulster County legislator. I am 14 also the Environmental Director for Hudson River 15 Sloop Clearwater, and I'm speaking in that capacity.
16 I want to point out that Clearwater, a 17 couple years ago, was told by the Coast Guard that we 18 had to do a major restoration, essentially a rebuild 19 of our beautiful, iconic, 50-year-old sloop that 20 takes children out on the river twice a day -- 40 21 children, twice a day in the school season, and 22 adults, as well. We agreed to do this at a cost 23 of -- ultimately, it's going to be over $1 million 24
43 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 for a struggling non-profit. The NRC is not 1
requiring the same kind of preventive maintenance for 2
Entergy, a set of nuclear reactors that is located in 3
the midst of 20 million people who live or work within 4
the 50-mile radius. We strongly support the petition 5
filed by Friends of the Earth calling for a much more 6
rigorous investigation of the problem that the bolts 7
are symptomatic of, and also to close Indian Point 3, 8
which is only two years younger and an identical twin, 9
and it's been subject to the same forces of heat and 10 radiation and vibration.
11 So have other embrittled parts of these 12 reactors. We believe it's irresponsible of the NRC 13 to allow these facilities to stay operating or 14 re-open, in the case of IP2. We also believe that 15 there should be other scientists, other nuclear 16 scientists and experts, other than your own staff, 17 making this determination. This is too important.
18 What are you going to tell us if there is 19 a major catastrophe, if one of the former plates falls 20 off during -- when the reactor is operating and we 21 have a major catastrophe? Are you going to apologize 22 to 20 million people? The other thing would be the 23 Governor's Oversight Committee. I'm calling on our 24
44 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 congressional representatives to call for a hearing 1
on this issue, a field hearing in this region, to 2
really get to the bottom of this. It's far too 3
dangerous. The risk is far too great. Then in 4
- general, we believe that the inspections are 5
inadequate. You find things out after the problem 6
occurs, so that spike that occurred, you didn't know 7
that Indian Point was leaking.
8 You found out because it showed up in the 9
monitoring wells after the ground water was 10 contaminated. You didn't know about the bolts from 11 the previous outage because you didn't adequately 12 inspect them. You found out now, after the damage 13 had occurred.
14 Finally, for years, I've been saying that 15 Indian Point is too dangerous to operate. To 16 continue to generate increasing numbers of highly 17 radioactive fuel rods that are stored in severely 18 over-crowded fuel pools, which, themselves, could 19 cause a spontaneous fuel pool fire, it's like playing 20 Russian roulette with our future, but now that's more 21 true than ever, except that we have a lot more bullets 22 in the cylinder.
23 It is simply time to close and safely 24
45 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 decommission these aging, leaking, and deteriorating 1
nuclear reactors before a major disaster occurs here, 2
along the shores of the Hudson, where more than 20 3
million people live and work. Thank you.
4 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. We're going to 5
resume -- are there any other elected officials in 6
the audience? Going once, twice. We're going to 7
resume our speaker order. That was a good indication 8
that I want to apologize now for my inevitable 9
mispronunciation of your names. I apologize in 10 advance. Next we have up Jeffrey Wahl. It looks 11 like W-A-H-L, maybe. Then we have Susan Shapiro, and 12 then Aris Pavledis. We have our three people.
13 Jeffrey, you are up.
14 MR. WONG: My name is Jeffrey Wong. I 15 live five miles from Indian Point. You guys tried 16 to put me in a category yea or nay nuclear power, so 17 I had to put neutral. I am just pro-safety. Nuclear 18 power's cool, as long as it's safe. The question I 19 have is about these bolts.
20 Simple question is how many bolts are 21 allowed or expected to be okay to be bad for the plant 22 to be safe? Another question is, you use ultrasound 23 to test the bolts, and it's not completely effective.
24
46 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Do you have another way of testing the bolts, other 1
than ultrasound? That's about it, just very simple, 2
basic questions. Thank you.
3 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
4 MR. LEW: Thank you for the question.
5 With respect to the minimum amount of bolts that are 6
required, it's actually a function of the minimal 7
bolt pattern because it's a function of the patterns.
8 I do understand the concerns relative to the large 9
number of bolts that have failed. It was unexpected 10 and, quite frankly, it's not acceptable.
11 But we do know what the underlying cause 12 is, and the purpose of doing the inspections -- the 13 reason for doing the inspections is not only to 14 identify degraded bolts, but also to look for these 15 trends -- these trends are unexpected -- to take the 16 appropriate corrective actions, which we're doing.
17 Relative to the second question was?
18 Ultrasonic testing, in terms of there is that 19 ultrasonic testing. I guess I'll have trouble 20 answering this, unless you can help me with ultrasonic 21 testing. That is the current technology that is 22 available to actually detect any kind of crack within 23 a bolt. I'm not aware of any other technique beyond 24
47 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that.
1 PARTICIPANT: Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's 2
the current method and, also, it's considered to be 3
conservative. As I mentioned, any crack, no matter 4
how
- small, that gives an indication, it's 5
conservatively assumed to be failed. The method 6
tends to be on the conservative side.
7 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Again, next up is 8
Susan Shapiro.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Hello, I'm Susan Shapiro.
10 I'm a member of the Indian Point Safe Energy 11 Coalition. I live within the 50-mile radius, and I'm 12 an environmental attorney. I support, strongly, the 13 Friends of the Earth's petition, and your response 14 was inadequate.
15 The NRC has not established a root cause 16 analysis or done a root cause analysis as to why this 17 occurred, nor does it seem to do that for many of the 18 problems that occur at Indian Point. You just keep 19 going on and on and say, "There's no problem. There's 20 no reason to degrade the rating at Indian Point."
21 You claim that the bolts were discovered in a routine 22 inspection.
23 That's not true, and you know it. You 24
48 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 know it was only done because New York State required 1
it as part of the re-licensing. This inspection 2
would never have happened otherwise. Now, I 3
understand that you don't have the reports back on 4
the -- the metallurgy reports, nor the Westinghouse 5
report -- on what caused it. You're talking about 6
re-starting this before you have those reports.
7 What's the rush, except to make them more money? Do 8
you count the cost of public health? Do you count 9
the cost of the human life? Do you count the cost 10 of the United States of America?
11 If you allow this plant to re-open 12 without knowing what's going on and why it happened 13 and why the bolts are degraded and putting new bolts 14 into old plates, which could cause another different 15 kind of problem that you have not analyzed, then you, 16 every single one of you and every single person at 17 the NRC and every commissioner is criminally 18 negligent and criminally liable for every life in the 19 United States and in this region.
20 Think about it. Would you put your 21 children at that risk? Would you put your 22 grandchildren at that risk? Because you are. It's 23 dangerous, and you know it, and you know that you're 24
49 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 doing a half-assed job. I'm mad as hell, and so are 1
a lot of people in this room, that you continue to 2
treat us in such disrespect.
3 (Applause.)
4 You don't care about our lives. You 5
don't care about our futures. All you care about is 6
how you're going to grease the pockets of Entergy.
7 There's no history here. This is an experiment 8
you're playing. Indian Point is the big experiment.
9 You have no historical knowledge of what's going on 10 in that plant in Indian Point 2 or Indian Point 3, 11 why it's degraded, why the bolts are failing. It's 12 the worst in the world, not just the United States, 13 the worst in the world, and you're playing games with 14 us. This is a science experiment gone wrong.
15 It's time to shut down these plants, and 16 if you can't figure out what's wrong with it because 17 it's old and falling apart. Because the plants were 18 not designed -- the systems, the materials are not 19 designed to last more than 30 years. You're running 20 them for over 40 years, at this point. They were not 21 designed to withstand it. These plants cannot handle 22 it. It's a physical reality. Accept the physical 23 reality because otherwise, you're living in your 24
50 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 alternative universe.
1 The bottom line is Indian Point is not 2
emission free. It's not carbon free. You don't 3
monitor the carbon. You damn well know straight that 4
there's carbon being emitted every single day from 5
that plant if, in 1977, there are reports from Los 6
Alamos, you know that, and you're not monitoring.
7 Unless you monitor the carbon, don't you dare say 8
it's carbon free.
9 PARTICIPANT: Thank you.
10 (Applause.)
11 MR. PAVLETIS: That was an enthusiastic 12 delivery, and I want to thank you for the opportunity.
13 My name is Aris Pavledis. I'm a senior vice president 14 of development for Easter
- Seals, New York.
15 Twenty-five thousand of the people that we serve, 16 people with special needs, veterans, the disabled 17 live in this area.
18 I tell you that because Entergy has 19 played a big impact on changing the lives of those 20 people, whether it's the playgrounds in Valhalla, 21 whether it's the children in Camp Colony or the 22 various places that we serve. Corporate citizenship 23 is important, No. 1. No. 2, it's jobs. You may 24
51 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 believe what you see on TV, but the reality of it is 1
the economy has not picked up in New York State.
2 Those 1,000 people that work there, those 3
lives are impacted. They're living near Indian 4
Point, also. I met people today that have been there 5
27 years, some second-generation people working at a 6
plant that's been operating for 50 years. Sure, 7
there's fears. There's fear every day when you cross 8
the street. There's fear every day of terrorism.
9 But you can live in fear, or you can live in faith.
10 Lastly, each day, those people go to work, and each 11 day, we flip a switch and take it for granted we have 12 power. Twenty-five percent of the power in New York 13 is supplied right there by Entergy at Indian Point.
14 Thank you.
15 PARTICIPANT: Bullshit.
16 (Applause.)
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. I heard bullshit 18 from someone. If you could please raise your hand.
19 Who said bullshit?
20 PARTICIPANT: I did.
21 MR. KLUKAN: All right, that's a strike.
22 I asked for -- he was not done speaking. It is not 23 your turn to speak. I am playing this fair on both 24
52 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 sides. That is exactly what I don't want.
1 PARTICIPANT: I'll take it against me.
2 This is like a police state. We're citizens, and we 3
have the right to speak. I'll take a strike against 4
me. This is like a police state. I was told to put 5
my scissors away. That's crazy. There are 6
policemen. I'm here as a citizen protecting my 7
property.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
8 MR. KLUKAN: You know what, ma'am? Ma'am, 9
thank you for coming out here tonight. Every single 10 one of my rules -- I'm sorry, I'm going to push back 11 a little bit. Every single one of my rules was 12 designed to give the maximum number of people an equal 13 footing. That is why I had a first come, first served 14 policy. That is why I do a chronological order to 15 the list. It is to --
16 PARTICIPANT: That's two strikes.
17 PARTICIPANT: (Simultaneous speaking.)
18 PARTICIPANT: Let's move on.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Okay, we're moving on.
20 PARTICIPANT: Yes, thank you.
21 MR. KLUKAN: Next up is K-E-S-N-I-Y-A, 22 last name G-O-L-U-B-E-V-I, great, and then Judith 23 Canepa, and then Jerry Kremer.
24
53 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. GOLUBEVI: Hi, my name is Kesniya 1
Golubevi. I live five miles within Indian Point. I 2
work right next to it. I work right at Indian Point, 3
nearby. All my questions have been answered, but 4
thank you for being here tonight.
5 (Applause.)
6 MS. CANEPA: I am Judith Canepa. I run 7
the New York Safe Energy Campaign. I took some good 8
notes, I think, from what you spoke about. I just 9
want to introduce that I am no mechanical expert. I 10 even have trouble using my key, but I know broken, 11 cracked, missing -- I know what that means. You 12 assure us that Indian Point 3, because it's smaller, 13 because it's younger, because it has fewer bolts and 14 former plates and it runs in lower capacity, Indian 15 Point 3 can wait a year, or even until 2019 or 16 sometime next year. A smaller reactor than the 17 gigantic Indian Point 2 is still a pretty big reactor.
18 It's only two years younger. How long do these plates 19 have to go before they actually popped off or cracked 20 off?
21 How long does that take, and where are 22 they? Where are these plates? What are they doing?
23 How did you find them? You found them on a routine 24
54 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 inspection? I don't think so. I think you found 1
them because Indian Point 2 was down. That's how you 2
have to find Indian Point 3's bolt problems. It has 3
to go down. You have to find it when it's down.
4 Remember, I don't know anything about mechanics. I 5
know this.
6 Too many broken and missing bolts, plus 7
the one that you found on the inspection. They say 8
Indian Point 3 is smaller. How can it be smaller 9
than 281 bolts are you thinking about that are missing 10 or broken or cracked? You say these are little 11 cracks. How big is a crack for a bolt to go off?
12 You do 10 to 25 inspections a year. What kind of 13 inspections are we talking about? What level of 14 inspection are you doing that you couldn't find this 15 stuff? How do we expect you to catch on to the other 16 reactor?
17 Another point I want to make is that 18 you're quoting the expertise of Spectra Energy, and 19 you're quoting the expertise of Entergy, as far as 20 the safety of each other's projects go. What about 21 the industry experts who have testified to you. What 22 about Paul Blanch, who's been working in the field 23 for over 50 years?
24
55 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 He testified today, as to the lack of 1
safety of Indian Point, and that it's the only reactor 2
in his over 50 years that he ever said should shut 3
down, that he ever said is an accident waiting to 4
happen. What about Richard Kuprewicz, who's a 5
pipeline safety expert? He testified to you that 6
this pipeline, if it has an accident, would open like 7
a zipper. There's no way in H-E-C-K -- there's no 8
way that could be stopped from down south, over some 9
computer that's probably shut down because of the 10 accident. Thank you.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
12 (Applause.)
13 MR. KLUKAN: If I'm correct, you had 14 slides.
15 MR. KREMER: No, sir.
16 MR. KLUKAN: No? Okay.
17 MR. KREMER: I have to go home and get 18 them if you want them.
19 MR. KLUKAN: That's all right.
20 MR. KREMER: I'm Jerry Kremer. I served 21 in the New York State legislature for 23 years, served 22 as chair of the Energy Committee, and I helped write 23 the original Power Plant Soldering law. I'm chairman 24
56 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of New York AREA, which is the Affordable Reliable 1
Electricity Alliance.
2 We have 200 plus members. Among them are 3
the people in this room, Westchester Chamber of 4
Commerce and many others. First of all, to the the 5
great reason about living in America is that we have 6
a democratically elected government and people who 7
carry out the wishes of the government and the First 8
Amendment. I thank you all for your service.
9 This re-licensing process has taken nine 10 years. There's no question it went very costly, and 11 there's no question that it's really due to the delays 12 by the opponents. A decision would have been made 13 on this plant a long time ago but for needless 14 obstruction. If this plant is to move forward, it 15 has to be allowed to continue to do its job, and it 16 does do its jobs. When you find problems in your 17 home, when you correct them, you're to be commended.
18 You're protecting your property. When your car 19 breaks down, when you buy a new battery, you've been 20 proactive. Indian Point and Entergy is proactive on 21 a daily basis. It wasn't some investigative group 22 that invaded Indian Point at night to find missing 23 bolts.
24
57 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 It was Entergy and the NRC, in the course 1
of regular inspections, who found this particular 2
problem, as it has, on many other occasions, 3
discovered the problems that are important. We've 4
had some good things happening since the last time 5
you were here. Governor Cuomo has now said that 6
nuclear must be an integral part of his 2030 plan for 7
more energy, that there's no way that we can move 8
forward to the new types of energy unless we keep 9
nuclear in the state's portfolio.
10 In addition, more and more jobs are being 11 created by Indian Point, at the facility and 12 throughout the region, as a result of its activities.
13 That's good news for people who pay taxes in this 14 community. More and more members of the scientific 15 community are coming forward to say Indian Point is 16 not only needed, but it's safe. Lastly, I think we 17 have to remember if Indian Point
- closes, a
18 congressional study requested by Congresswoman Lowey 19 stated that if Indian Point were to close, it would 20 take six fossil fuel plants in this region to replace 21 it. The 2000 megawatts from Indian Point are not 22 replaceable. Anybody who tells you that -- there are 23 things online, like the Champlain Express, which will 24
58 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 come years from now, but all these others, they don't 1
exist. Indian Point is the key factor in keeping the 2
lights on in this room and in the homes of all the 3
people in this room. Keep doing what you're doing 4
and keep Indian Point going. Thank you.
5 (Applause.)
6 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Next up we will 7
have Ken Gale, followed by Gary Shaw, and then Thomas 8
Kerry. Again, Ken Gale, Gary Shaw, and then Thomas 9
Kerry.
10 MR. GALE: Thank you for holding this 11 hearing and for the opportunity to speak. My name 12 is Ken Gale, and I'm the founder of the New York City 13 Safe Energy Campaign and the host and producer of the 14 environmental radio show "Ecologic" on WBAI FM in New 15 York City. I'm not going to address whether or not 16 Indian Point should close or stay open. There are 17 plenty of people here to do that. I want to talk 18 about the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, itself, and 19 compare it to the NFL. On May 23rd, it came out that 20 the National Football League tried to influence a 21 study of brain disease, head trauma, and concussions 22 to professional football players. They had promised 23
$16 million to the National Institute of Health for 24
59 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the study, and took it back when they found out the 1
man in charge of the study was Dr. Robert Stern, a 2
critic of the way the NFL has handled head injury to 3
football players.
4 I'm sure the NFL hoped that the lack of 5
money would stop the study, but it didn't. Many 6
football fans were outraged at this. Some were 7
confused about how the NFL could pay for an 8
investigation of the NFL and not try to influence it.
9 Activists such as myself have seen this 10 over and over -- pharmaceutical companies paying for 11 and influencing studies for new drugs, oil companies 12 paying for and influencing studies of the 13 environmental effects of drilling for oil, utilities 14 stopping the study of cancer clusters near nuclear 15 power plants due to routine releases of radiation.
16 It's how Washington regulators work. Instead of tax 17 money going to making these studies independent, 18 federal agencies whose budgets have been cut to the 19 bone, such as yours, go to the industries they 20 regulate to make a study. Industry pays for the 21 study, directly or indirectly, so it's done their 22 way, and the agencies can show a report that looks 23 like they investigate the industries they regulate.
24
60 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Few people look at how the studies are done. I'm not 1
blaming you for the way things are done. I'm blaming 2
the way Washington handles its regulatory agencies.
3 Washington has been cutting budgets to a 4
lot of essential health and safety agencies, but 5
without changing what those agencies must do. Almost 6
all of the budget to FERC, the agency which regulates 7
oil and gas pipelines, comes from the companies that 8
give us oil and gas pipelines. If FERC doesn't 9
approve the project, their budget is cut, and people 10 lose jobs and don't get raises. If there were fewer 11 nuclear power plants, the NRC would get its budget 12 cut, so they -- without even licenses.
13 I'm amused that football fans were so 14 surprised, confused, or outraged that this style of 15 doing business is affecting the sport they love so 16 much. Isn't it interesting that this conflict of 17 interest got so much publicity when it's applied to 18 football? It's as if the health and safety of a few 19 hundred football players is more important than the 20 health and safety of the millions of people whose 21 health and safety is hurt by poor environmental 22 regulators. So, then, what do we pay taxes for? For 23 the military, of course, and to give money to 24
61 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 polluting industries, like fossil fuel and nuclear, 1
so they can pay their executives even more money.
2 The Green Center report lists $200 billion worth of 3
subsidies -- www.greencenter.com.
4 If they stopped giving out tax money to 5
wealthy industries, that money would be available for 6
studying newly developed drugs, the health effects of 7
routine releases of radiation, the health effects of 8
pipeline leaks, and the effects of head injuries to 9
professional and amateur football players.
10 For the budgets for operating nuclear 11 plants, whoever does budgets doesn't understand that 12 closing a nuclear plant is not like closing a shoe 13 store. It takes many years to decommission power 14 plants. They're all going to close. We don't want 15 them to close like Chernobyl or Fukushima. We want 16 them to close like Vermont Yankee. Thank you.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
18 (Applause.)
19 MR. SHAW: My name is Gary Shaw. I'm 20 with the Indian Point Safe Energy Coalition. My 21 family and I live about five miles from Indian Point.
22 In 1979, Robert Ryan, the NRC director of the Office 23 of State Programs, said Indian Point was one of the 24
62 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 most inappropriate sites in existence for a nuclear 1
plant. The NRC has inspectors on site. If that's 2
supposed to reassure me, as a local resident, you 3
have failed miserably. Just a few of the problems 4
we've been privy to in the past year or so. In May 5
2015, for the third time, there was a transformer 6
explosion and fire, this time caused by faulty 7
insulation.
8 The on-site inspectors did not identify 9
the inadequate and faulty insulation and did not 10 prevent the event, even though the plant had previous 11 transformer fires and two explosions. When the fire 12 protection system, at that time, was activated, the 13 switch gear room that supplies power to emergency 14 systems was flooded.
15 As reported by David Lockbaum of the 16 Union of Concerned Scientists, and I quote, "The NRC 17 team determined that valves in the switchboard room 18 opened to spray water on the transformer fire and 19 malfunctioned because parts were corroded and clogged 20 by debris. The valve leaked water into the room.
21 The drain in the floor was also partially blocked by 22 debris, allowing the room to begin flooding. The 23 periodic tests of the drain conducted by the plant 24
63 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 owner were inadequate to reveal clogging problems, 1
and while tests did reveal problems with the valve, 2
workers did not follow up by fixing the valves." How 3
good a job is being done by the so-called on-site 4
inspectors? In December of 2015, there was an 5
unplanned shutdown because the magnets that held 6
control rods failed, and the control rods sank into 7
the reactor vessel and shut down the reactor.
8 The loss of power to the magnets was 9
caused by a short circuit in a roof fan. Another 10 problem not prevented by so-called on-site 11 inspectors. I'd like to know when the wiring on that 12 fan has been last checked. In February of this year, 13 there was a huge release of tritium reported. A very 14 disturbing factor in this episode is that no one 15 mentioned that these leaks also included a slew of 16 other radium nuclides, including Strontium 90, Cesium 17 137, Cobalt 60, Nickel 63.
18 That was reported by the New York 19 Department of State. The NRC does not seem to mention 20 anything to let the public know, even though their 21 charter for the NRC is to protect public health and 22 safety. Now we have the issue of the IP2 having more 23 than 25 percent of the baffle bolts missing completely 24
64 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 or being degraded to the point of being 1
non-functional. The baffle is a part of the reactor 2
cooling system, and if that system fails, the uranium 3
fuel can heat up to the point where it becomes molten 4
slag and melts through the steel reactor. That's 5
what happened in Fukushima. It seems like the 6
so-called on-site inspectors weren't on top of that, 7
either. Now, the operators and the NRC are talking 8
about restarting Indian Point 2 without doing a root 9
cause analysis to understand why this close call 10 happened and how it could be prevented by happening 11 again.
12 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
13 MR. SHAW: There are no plans to shut 14 down Indian Point 3 to check the baffle plates on the 15 reactor, even though IP has the same design. I have 16 one question. Can you tell us any dangerous 17 conditions that you actually prevented from happening 18 at this plant because you were ahead of the curve?
19 Thank you.
20 (Applause.)
21 MR. KERRY: Good evening, and thank you 22 all for this very important hearing tonight on the 23 issues regarding the assessment at Indian Point 24
65 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Energy Center. I'm Thomas Kerry. I represent the 1
Westchester Putnam Central Labor Council and the 2
Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 21 and many brothers 3
and sisters that work at the plant, both Unit 2 and 4
- 3. Many of the members I represent were involved in 5
the construction of all three units at Indian Point, 6
as well as the safe continuous day-to-day operations 7
today. On a personal note, my grandfather, father, 8
uncles, brother, and my late sister have played many 9
key roles during the ConEdison, Pasley, NYPA, and 10 Entergy-owned era.
11 My grandfather and father worked on 12 building Units 1 and 2. My dad worked construction 13 on Unit 3, as well as becoming a general foreman.
14 Following in our dad's footsteps, my sister, Colleen, 15 worked her way up through Pasley, and eventually NYPA, 16 at Unit 3, shortly out of high school, eventually 17 becoming a warehouse manager. As you can see, my 18 family has a long history with Indian Point.
19 Three generations, so far, have been able 20 to provide a good living for our families. If you 21 ask most of the locals in the area, they are happy 22 that Indian Point is our neighbor. It wasn't until 23 the folks that moved up from surrounding areas that 24
66 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 started complaining about Indian Point. It's in my 1
backyard. I have no problem with it. I'm here to 2
tell you we're just fine with Indian Point. This 3
utility has done more for this community through the 4
years, alleviating tax burdens, helping in local 5
government, libraries, education, and many civil 6
activities. Whether they are asked to pitch 7
in -- whatever they are asked to pitch in, wherever 8
they could, and for the members I represent, in the 9
early days of construction through today.
10 Indian Point has contributed millions of 11 man hours of good-paying
- jobs, creating an 12 environment so all of us who work there at Indian 13 Point, it's the most safest place we have worked. I 14 am a past chief of the Verplanck Fire Department, 15 which serves fire protection to Indian Point. I 16 worked for years with on-site fire personnel 17 conducting training and drills which has been 18 overseen. We have an outstanding relationship with 19 Entergy, and a commitment to our community to provide 20 the best fire service in the industry. We have 21 changed many major components at both sites, such as 22 the steam generators. As you went through the job 23 site every day, there are bulletins pointing out every 24
67 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 measure of safety. As you are given out your 1
assignments for the day-to-day details, none of our 2
contractors on site actually reach 1 million man 3
hours. I have to say it again because it's such a 4
great accomplishment. I speak on behalf of my 5
members, my family, and myself that we are proud to 6
work at Indian Point, and we will continue to keep it 7
a safe and viable plant, as it is so important in 8
sustaining good paying jobs to our community and 9
keeping us strong. We've heard from our panel of NRC 10 inspectors with years of experience, and I think we 11 can all feel comfortable with their findings that 12 Indian Point remains a safe nuclear power plant. I 13 urge the NRC to extend the operating licenses for 14 another 20 years. Thank you.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
16 (Applause.)
17 I'm sorry, what is being said right now?
18 Let me put this out here. I apologize for getting a 19 little heated earlier. But -- I don't want to take 20 up any more of your time than one minute.
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: All right, then we will, but 23 I would ask you please, please don't interject while 24
68 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 people are speaking. Tom DiFrancisco is up next, 1
followed by Ellen Cantarow -- I apologize -- and then 2
the next up after her will be Mr. Louis Picani. First 3
up is Tom DiFrancisco, then Ellen, and then Louis.
4 MR. DEPRISCO: Good evening, my name is 5
Tom DePrisco. I'm a resident of Pearl River, 6
Rockland County. I'm also a retired deputy 7
commissioner from the New York City Office of 8
Emergency Management for 11 years. I have a few 9
comments and some questions. I'm not a nuclear 10 expert, and I applaud your service in the U.S.
11 Military, by the way. I am a proponent of nuclear 12 power.
13 I'm a proponent of the use of safe nuclear 14 power as an alternative energy source. But watching 15 your PowerPoint over there, I would prefer to err on 16 the side of -- I would prefer that you keep Indian 17 Point 3 closed and inspect it for those baffle bolts.
18 I don't think you're really sure how long the bolts 19 in Indian Point 2 were actually degraded, so I would 20 prefer just to err on the side of safety, check out 21 those bolts with your ultrasound techniques, check 22 out Indian Point 3 first before you restart it.
23 I also have a question about the severe 24
69 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 accident mitigation analysis. It was in the news a 1
little over a month ago. The NRC asked to re-evaluate 2
the decontamination and cleanup costs associated with 3
any severe incident or accident. My question is does 4
that include -- it wasn't clear in the report. Does 5
that include all property in the surrounding area, 6
like private property, homeowners, businesses, and 7
any other property that's surrounding Indian Point?
8 My concern is I was involved with a lot of -- I 9
developed a lot of the recovery protocols in Ground 10 Zero and the surrounding area after 9/11, and it was 11 immense. It was very overwhelming. I just want to 12 know, are you concerned that Entergy has severely 13 underestimated the cost to clean up the mess if there 14 were an accident in the surrounding area? Thank you.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
16 (Applause.)
17 PARTICIPANT: Let me try and take the 18 last question first. I think what you're referring 19 to is the Severe Accident Mitigation or turn off, or 20 what we call SAMA. The Commission did reverse the 21 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board decision relative 22 to the model -- there's a cost model.
23 It was based on the two inputs that the 24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Commission believed that a sensitivity study should 1
be done. The staff is following Commission 2
direction. They will be doing a sensitivity study.
3 I would offer that does reflect the independence of 4
the Commission, in terms of the reversal of the ASLB.
5 The other thing I would offer, too, is that the major 6
alternatives, there are enhancements to safety, but 7
the underlying requirements for safety is already 8
established. I think part of it, to answer your 9
question, is analysis of cost, in terms of is the 10 cost for enhancements justified? That's going to be 11 reviewed by the staff.
12 MR. DEPRISCO: But does it include the 13 costs for decontamination and cleanup for -- I asked 14 about the surrounding area, private property, or is 15 it just within the Entergy property, itself?
16 PARTICIPANT:
It does include 17 everything.
18 MR. DEPRISCO: It does?
19 PARTICIPANT: SAMA analysis includes all 20 costs.
21 MR. DEPRISCO: So the NRC really believed 22 that Entergy did underestimate the decontamination 23 and cleanup costs for the surrounding area, God forbid 24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there was an accident?
1 PARTICIPANT: Just to clarify, there's 2
two inputs that have been raised and questioned.
3 What the staff is doing is doing a sensitivity 4
analysis to understand what the potential impact is 5
on that analysis. That's going to have to continue.
6 The determination of the result, it's undetermined 7
until the staff actually does it. That's what the 8
staff has on the way is doing a sensitivity analysis 9
on those two inputs.
10 MR. DEPRISCO: I guess I'm within my time 11 frame, I guess.
12 MR. KLUKAN: You are. You have about 30 13 seconds.
MR. DEPRISCO: I just 14 want to make sure I understand. I don't know if I'm 15 hearing it. My concern is the surrounding area. If 16 there is an accident, like in New York City, we try 17 to figure out how much the mitigation costs would be 18 for the surrounding area. I don't know if I'm hearing 19 that.
20 PARTICIPANT: The answer's yes. For the 21 surrounding area, the model does consider the entire 22 surrounding area.
23 MR. DEPRISCO: All right, thank you.
24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. KLUKAN: Ellen, you're up next.
1 MS. CANTAROW: My name is Ellen Cantarow.
2 I'm going to do something I've never, ever done 3
before. It's not a self-advertisement, but what 4
appalls me as a journalist who has written for a long 5
time both about fracking, the gas that's going to be 6
carried in the Spectra pipeline is going to be fracked 7
gas from shale. I have written about Indian Point.
8 My name is spelled -- and I'd like the workers to 9
take my name down, too, because I find that people 10 really don't -- even people who are working very 11 closely with nuclear plants really may not get the 12 magnitude of the threat that I'm convinced, on the 13 basis of my research, from my reports, exists -- C-A-N 14 for Nancy, T for Tom, A-R-O-W -- C for cat, A for 15 apple, N-T-A-R-O-W. You can find my articles at 16 Truthout and TomDispatch.
17 I have no time tonight to ring up the 18 hundreds of hours of research that I have done on 19 what I am convinced now are the incredible dangers of 20 bringing into conjunction two sources of power, 21 natural gas or methane rushing through a huge 22 pipeline, at one point a mere 105 feet from critical 23 structures at a plant which is known to be if not the 24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 most dangerous, among the most dangerous in the world.
1 I defer to people who have spoken to the 2
dangers of this plant.
I'm not going to 3
continue -- okay. A 2015 Pipeline and Hazardous 4
Materials Safety Administration report showed a 5
six-fold increase in pipeline incidents since 2009.
6 A lot of these pipelines are being built to 7
accommodate the fracking industry. The way these 8
pipelines are being built, apparently, according to 9
the PHMSA report and according to a National 10 Transportation Safety Administration report, the 11 incidents are rising. A gentleman whose name I did 12 not disclose in my most recent report told me that 13 there were shortcuts that were being done on the 14 pipeline, the AIM pipeline that is being built by 15 Spectra Corporation. Do I have three more minutes, 16 or it's now my three minutes are up?
17 MR. KLUKAN: It is a little confusing.
18 You have ten seconds.
19 MS. CANTAROW: I have never, in the 40 20 years I have been writing, as well as about the 21 environment, I have never written anything that has 22 come so close to the bone as the reports that I have 23 written about Indian Point and the pipeline that is 24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 scheduled to pass by it. I just moved to New York 1
City, and frankly, I am no longer a disinterested 2
party, even though reports are disinterested, and I 3
am scared shitless of what could happen. I am very 4
sorry to use that word. We are not talking about an 5
accident.
6 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
7 MS. CANTAROW: We're talking about a 8
possible Fukushima, and this could happen in New York 9
and decimate the entire region, and thus the economy 10 of the entire United States.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you very much.
12 (Applause.)
13 MR. PICANI: Good evening. My name is 14 Louis Picani. I'm president and principal officer 15 of Teamsters Local 456. Teamsters Local 456 is 16 responsible for the safety and security of the Indian 17 Point Energy Center. We represent the security 18 officers who work to protect it.
19 We have the experience and rigorous 20 training necessary to ensure Indian Point maintains 21 its record of safe operations and to secure our 22 facility against external threats. We are proud of 23 the jobs we do and take ownership of our plant. Our 24
75 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 safety record is a testament to our commitment to our 1
co-workers, community, and the environment. Indian 2
Point is safe, and anyone who claims otherwise is 3
attacking our members without authority or knowledge 4
of how the operation actually works.
5 The U.S. Department of Homeland Security 6
and the U.S. Department of Defense coordinates with 7
the NRC, New York State Office of Emergency Management 8
and regional government authorities on a daily basis 9
to ensure public safety because it is a top priority 10 for Indian Point. Indian Point is also an economical 11 driver in the region, supporting thousands of 12 well-paying jobs across Westchester County and lower 13 Hudson Valley. Shutting down Indian Point would have 14 a catastrophic impact on our economy. Thousands of 15 good-paying jobs would be lost, while electric bills 16 would rise, and the entire region would suffer.
17 Indian Point's continued operation is necessary for 18 economical health, and Teamster's Local 456 will 19 continue our commitment to ensure that we keep it 20 safe. Teamster's Local 456 and all organized labor 21 stands behind you. Keep up the good work.
22 (Applause.)
23 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. I know that 24
76 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 three minutes is not a long time, and a lot of you 1
will not finish with your written statements. If 2
you'd like to give them to me at the end of the 3
evening, or email me, I'd be happy to add them to an 4
addendum to the written transcript. Next up we have 5
Bernard Vaughey V-A-U-G-H-E-Y, then we have Jill 6
McMannis, and then Joe Brown -- so again, Bernard, 7
then Jill, then Joe.
8 MR. VAUGHEY: Hi, my name is Bernard 9
Vaughey. I live less than a mile from Indian Point.
10 I do not believe that Indian Point needs to be closed, 11 but I do strongly believe that established safety 12 standards need to be followed and exceeded, not waived 13 and minimized. I do believe that these safety 14 standards have not been met or exceeded at Indian 15 Point, as it relates to the Algonquin gas line, the 16 AIM project. Therefore, I call upon the NRC to 17 immediately and unconditionally rescind their 18 previous approval to FERC for the AIM project and 19 other segments of this project through Indian Point 20 Energy Center until a clear, transparent, and 21 independent evaluation has been implemented and 22 completed.
23 We need an energy evaluation, subsequent 24
77 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 NRC confirmation evaluation that provides specific 1
information into what specific areas were evaluated.
2 The presentation tonight indicates that only 42-inch 3
line was looked at. What about the existing 30-inch 4
line? Nothing is in the documents about the 30-inch 5
line.
6 Acceptable evaluations must indicate that 7
there is no increased risk, not minimal increases or 8
no significant increase in risks. These terms, 9
minimal and not significant terms, are unacceptable 10 when we're talking about safety and risk to Indian 11 Point. If the NRC approval of a 30-inch line through 12 Indian Point is based upon the updated final safety 13 analysis, the UFSAR report, using a 2008 report as a 14 reference, which is prior to AIM, or does it include 15 the specific system changes that were made under the 16 AIM project? We need to know. Does the Indian Point 17 USFAR still describe -- describes past evaluations of 18 pipeline ruptures, but it indicates that there is no 19 discussion of the methodology. This is unacceptable, 20 and yet another reason to rescind the NRC approval 21 until it is addressed.
22 Show us, the residents and those who will 23 be in the brunt of any disaster, how the AIM review 24
78 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and the reviewers addressed the 30-inch line, the new 1
interconnections with the 42-inch gas line with 2
related over-pressurization potential to 850 PSI, the 3
significant increase in compression horsepower only 4
four miles upstream of Indian Point from 20,300 5
horsepower to 36,200 horsepower, the increased 6
capacity of an additional 237,000 dekatherms, a 17 7
percent increase in the capacity of what the two lines 8
are currently carrying, and the impact of these 9
increases on the control room, which is only 400 feet 10 away from these lines.
11 What group is performing these reviews on 12 both the Entergy and the NRC level, and what are the 13 review teams', not the individuals', qualifications 14 and expertise on nuclear power plants and interstate 15 gas transmission safety, failure models, experience 16 in disaster analysis -- thank you.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
18 (Applause.)
19 I think some of you -- you're welcome to 20 clap when someone is speaking. That's completely 21 kosher. Let's move on. Thank you.
22 MS. MCMANNIS: Hi, my name is Jill 23 McMannis. I'm from New York City, but I spend a lot 24
79 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of time out here. I don't enjoy it anymore. I think 1
there's a difference in your concept of safety and my 2
concept of safety. You remind me of lawyers. You 3
have parameters of your own. If it's green or white, 4
you have three of this and three of that, it's safe.
5 To me, I'm looking at the whole picture. I find it 6
an intolerable risk for daily life.
7 It's affecting daily life. There's no 8
evacuation possible for the people here. The city 9
would be in total gridlock. We see these constant 10 breakdowns, these electrical flaws and problems, 11 leaks of tritium, radioactive releases, and the thing 12 with the bolts is nuts. It's beyond. The Spectra 13 AIM pipeline compounds the dangers that already exist 14 at Indian Point, yet the NRC and FERC, as the 15 rubberstamp industry organization is called, are 16 allowing Spectra to run this 42-inch pipeline, that's 17 this big, right to within 105 feet of critical 18 infrastructure, as you've heard, just a short city 19 block. Meanwhile, a rupture to 42-inch pipeline that 20 I have research and looked into a bit could cause a 21 blast similar to Hiroshima every few minutes as that 22 gas is coming through an active pipeline, and it would 23 have a blast radius of more like 50 and 100 feet, and 24
80 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 possibly more.
1 I think that was derived from comparing 2
the San Bruno 30-inch blast. The NRC and FERC did 3
not adequately assess the combined risks of the 4
pipeline and the nuclear reactor. There are other 5
risks. How about Fort McMurray? How about a 6
wildfire? How about electrical charges along the 7
fault lines that could be causing the bolts to 8
collapse?
9 How about a
careless bulldozer, a
10 missile, a plane crash, security breach? I can't 11 live with this. How many helicopters does your local 12 fire department have? Because in the forest fire, 13 they had no way to douse it except by water baggage 14 carried by helicopters. Okay, that's about it. I 15 just think you have your head in the sand, just like 16 Pepco did, and we have to live with the risk.
17 (Applause.)
18 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. After Joe, who's 19 walking to the microphone, we will then have Bill 20 Meyer, M-E-Y-E-R, followed by Ling Su, and then Dr.
21 Cabbagestock, but Joe, you're up next.
22 MR. BROWN: Thank you. My name's Joe 23 Brown. I'm the founder of the Daisy Jopling 24
81 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Foundation. The Daisy Jopling Foundation brings 1
music education to children, so wonderful to see 2
children get inspired by professional musicians and 3
go on to do great things in life. I grew up about 4
less than two miles from Indian Point. Quite 5
frankly, I like to keep things very simple. In that 6
regard, when I think of all the fear that I feel and 7
I see and I hear from people, I wanted to investigate 8
myself, so I went and I talked to people in the 9
community.
10 I talked to people who actually built the 11 facility, and they assured me that there were no 12 shortcuts taken back in the days. They assured me 13 that the place was over-engineered because it was 14 unknown. It was one of the first nuclear power plants 15 in the country. Then I thought people are talking 16 about health hazards and health risks, so I went and 17 I talked to the undertaker. The undertaker assured 18 me that there's no greater rate of overall fatalities 19 in the area than any other place in the country.
20 Again, keeping it simple, I did a Google search. I 21 searched for casualties to the nuclear power 22 generation. When you do that, Wikipedia -- it's an 23 encyclopedia online -- comes up. It tells you that 24
82 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there are four power plants that suffered from some 1
casualties, Chernobyl being the worst one, and 2
Fukushima being the fourth one.
3 If you look at Fukushima, there was no 4
casualties. No one died from radiation exposure.
5 Look it up yourself. No one died from radiation 6
exposure at Fukushima. I don't understand where all 7
the fear is coming from. I would say let's keep it 8
simple. Let's look into it. Let's investigate it, 9
and let's keep Indian Point open. Thank you very 10 much.
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. KLUKAN: Next up is Bill Meyer. Do 13 we have a Bill Meyer? Okay, then we're moving on 14 to -- again, that's spelled M-E-Y-E-R. No? Okay, 15 moving on to Ling Su.
16 MS. SU: My name is Ling Su. I'm a 17 resident of New York City and the co-founder of United 18 for Action. Indian Point should be shut down 19 immediately and decommissioned carefully and 20 responsibly. We have seen an increasing pattern of 21 shutdowns, equipment failures, and safety violations 22 at Indian Point. While we still do not have a 23 satisfactory answer to the cause of the alarming level 24
83 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of radioactive tritium leaks at Indian Point, a 1
routine safety inspection of Reactor Unit 2 revealed 2
that more than 25 percent of the bolts which are a 3
critical part of the reactor's core cooling system 4
were degraded or failed.
5 This high failure rate has never been 6
recorded in any reactor in the whole world. If the 7
bolts and the plates they hold fail, cooling water 8
can't get to the reactor core. This could lead to a 9
reactor core meltdown, just like at Fukushima. This 10 will send a field of radioactivity over nearly 20 11 million people who live within 50 miles of Indian 12 Point.
13 We understand that Entergy is rushing to 14 repair the degraded bolts in Reactor Unit 2 without 15 investigating the safety condition of the plates and 16 without understanding the root cause of the failure 17 of the bolts, so that Entergy can restart Reactor 18 Unit 2 in June, in time to profit from the high energy 19 cost summer season. Moreover, despite the fact that 20 aging Reactor Unit 3 is the same as Reactor Unit 2, 21 Entergy has no plans to bring Reactor Unit 3 offline 22 until 2017 to inspect if it is seriously damaged, as 23 well. This is totally unacceptable. We demand that 24
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the NRC take over the investigation of Reactor Unit 1
2 and shut down Reactor Unit 3 immediately for an 2
intensive inspection. Until the root cause of the 3
bolt failure or anything else NRC may discover in its 4
own inspection are found and corrections are made and 5
certified by NRC, Reactor Unit 2 and 3 should not be 6
allowed to be operational.
7 The construction by Spectra Energy of the 8
Algonquin
- Pipeline, a
new high pressure and 9
potentially explosive 42-inch natural gas pipeline 10 very close to Indian Point is totally irresponsible.
11 Should corporate profit outweigh public safety and 12 health concern for 20 million people? If you don't 13 care about human suffering, then what about the 14 disastrous impact a meltdown at Indian Point would 15 have on Wall Street in New York City, the U.S., and 16 the global economy?
17 We do not need Indian Point. Through the 18 various shutdowns, no one suffered any power failure.
19 I urge you to shut down Indian Point immediately, and 20 do not renew the operating license for Indian Point.
21 The construction of Algonquin Pipeline should be 22 halted immediately, as well. Thank you.
23 (Applause.)
24
85 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Next up is Dr.
1 Cabbagestock.
2 DR. CABBAGESTOCK: Thank you. Good 3
evening. This is how we first begin to solve our 4
problems, by being friendly to one another. My name 5
is Reverend Cabbagestock, Dr. Cabbagestock. I come 6
out of Brooklyn, one of the most concentrated Black 7
people in the City of New York.
8 This is not my first time speaking on 9
this situation and the subject of this matter, any 10 way that you wish to label it, but I believe that 11 it's meaningful, Indian Point. I truly believe that.
12 On the behalf of some of the religious leaders and 13 those that are not able to speak for themselves, I 14 come to represent them.
15 I just want to say that we thank you for 16 the public forum because many of them don't have the 17 time to be here, and many of them would not come here 18 under difficult circumstances. It may be a lack of 19 education. But we do thank you for that. We have 20 concerns. We have concerns because you, who are 21 making decisions on behalf of not just Brooklyn, but 22 many other people in the State of New York and other 23 places, need to have a clear understanding of what's 24
86 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 going on. Because we support you. In order to 1
support you, we must be clear on all aspects of what's 2
going on. Let me just say that we want you to have 3
the best interests for the people of New York, the 4
children and families in our congregation.
5 As you see, there are many individuals 6
that have come here today. They have signs. They 7
have their T-shirts on. They'll do what they need 8
to do to help the process, but not be against the 9
process. We can argue and fuss all day and all night 10 long, but at some point, we must come together in a 11 group. That's the beauty of liberation, and that is 12 the beauty of the founding fathers of democracy, to 13 come together and agree to do something that's 14 greater.
15 Let me just say that we are tired of 16 dangerous pollution, so we will choose to be there.
17 We don't want our communities to be disrupted by some 18 kind of pollution air that causes asthma and causes 19 hard breathing for our elders and our young people.
20 It's a danger, whether it Harlem, Bronx, or Brooklyn.
21 We need clean energy. Clean energy. But I want to say 22 this in continuation of stopping at that two minutes 23 I believe that is there. I just want to say that we 24 just want to do this in a responsible and reasonable 25
87 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 manner, because we're dealing with a lot of money, as 1
well, $2.5 billion over the United States, $1.3 over 2
local communities, $1.6 statewide. It's a lot of 3
money being spent. And if you would give me the 4
opportunity to sit with you gentlemen at a later date, 5
we will show you how to spend that money. I thank 6
you so kindly. God bless you and keep you in what 7
you're doing, but do it the right way. Thank you.
8 (Applause.)
9 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay, next up 10 is William Huston, it looks like H-U-S-T-O-N, and 11 then Catherine Skopic, S-K-O-P-I-C, and then Reginald 12 Bowman. So again, William, Catherine, Reginald.
13 William Huston. Do we have a William Huston in the 14 audience? We do, okay, great.
15 MR. HUSTON: William Huston.
16 MR. KLUKAN: Huston, I apologize.
17 MR. HUSTON: That's okay. My name is 18 William Huston. I drove three hours to come here 19 today to talk to you all. My concern is first of 20 all, I really want to echo what Mr. Paul Blanch has 21 said, and also Ellen Cantarow and a lot of other 22 people, about the concerns about the AIM pipeline.
23 There's a lot of people here that have been telling 24 you about that. My expertise is not nuclear power.
25
88 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 My expertise is natural gas pipelines. What I've 1
been doing for about the last three years is I've 2
been examining the federal formula called the 3
Potential Impact Radius, the PIR. What I will tell 4
you is the gentleman that did the presentation of the 5
analysis and the models, that is, like, way wrong.
6 It's way wrong. It's laughable wrong.
7 You've got to go back and look at some 8
real-world data, like I did. Let me tell you what I 9
found. San Bruno, California, the predicted PIR was 10 414 feet. The actual impact radius was 1,024 feet, 11 Sissendale (phonetic) 436, actual impact radius 514, 12 Cleburn, Texas, 805 feet predicted PIR, actual impact 13 radius 1,400 feet, Appomattox, Virginia, predicted 14 PIR, 585, actual 958. Let me cut to the chase because 15 I've looked at a lot of these.
16 Every single accident -- I've been able 17 to find the data that I need on seven of the biggest 18 pipeline accidents in United States history, and I've 19 got them right here, and I can show you. There was 20 just one that recently happened in Salem, PA. This 21 thing was off the charts. It was a 30-inch natural 22 gas pipeline that failed. The predicted PIR was 671 23 feet. The actual impact radius was 2,200 feet.
24 There was melted siding on homes 2,200 feet away.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Your models, sir, are way wrong. This is the -- I 1
like to say that the AIM pipeline is extreme 2
stupidity. The existing natural gas pipelines under 3
Indian Point, 50 or 60 years old, rusting pipes, near 4
stray electrical currents, near a water supply, this 5
makes extreme stupidity sound like a good idea. I 6
just want to say I'm signed up on the neutral list.
7 I
have personal feelings about whether we 8
should -- what the remedial action is, but I'm going 9
to let people here -- what do we need to do?
10 (Simultaneous speaking.)
11 MR. HUSTON: Thank you.
12 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. KLUKAN: Next up is Ms. Skopic, 15 followed by Reginald Bowman.
16 MS. SKOPIC: Could you please give me my 17 ten seconds sign after two minutes, because I'd like 18 to see[cede to] Paul who's at the end of the list, 19 and I want to be sure he gets a chance to speak.
20 MR. KLUKAN: You want me to stop you at 21 two minutes, ten seconds?
22 MS. SKOPIC: Yes, give me the bell, the 23 one you would give, the ten-second bell, give it to 24 me after two.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. KLUKAN: This will go swimmingly.
1 MS. SKOPIC: My name is Catherine Skopic 2
-- we are concerned about the workers in the 3
community. We are very serious about having a 4
roundtable with all stakeholders to justly take care 5
of this serious problem and get this danger closed.
6 Eight major malfunctions in 2015.
7 The leaks of this past February, now the 8
rusted bolts inside Reactor 2. What is it going to 9
take to wake up those at the helm. The ship has hit 10 the iceberg. We want Indian Point shut down before 11 it sinks and we suffer. I wanted to make a few 12 points, one being nuclear energy is dirty energy.
13 It's dirty from the mining and processing and the 14 transporting of uranium to the fossil fuel-run 15 generators that they have to keep on hand.
16 I would like to point out that the 2,040 17 megawatts of Indian Point has been replaced already 18 with increased transmission lines, energy efficiency 19 and so forth, and that if we closed Fitzpatrick, we 20 can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can 21 close one and get more transmission and more increased 22 efficiency -- we are smarter than that. We don't 23 have to choose between one dirty generation and 24 another. We don't have choose between nuclear power 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and burning fossil fuels. We are smarter than that.
1 And I would like to also point out that these tritium 2
leaks from February 10th, 80 percent increase in 3
tritium levels (Inaudible) 12 million (Inaudible) per 4
meter, 700 times the EPA required level, and there is 5
no safe amount of tritium in the water.
6 (Inaudible) Flint, Michigan (Inaudible) 7 no. Close Indian Point now. The last thing I wanted 8
to say before I give my time to Paul is that members 9
(Inaudible) support the emergency petition filed by 10 Friends of the Earth (Inaudible) shutdown of two until 11 it's fully explored, and a shutdown of three. Close 12 it now. Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 PARTICIPANT: Thank you, Catherine. I 15 have a question. I'm going to speak very briefly, 16 and then I'm going to ask you guys to speak volumes.
17 You've said that the bolts failed at a rate well over 18 200. As I understand it, no other reactor in the 19 world has failed at a rate higher than 50. Entergy 20 predicted a rate of 1.5 percent, and this is roughly 21 33 percent. Why are we so lucky? Tell us why this 22 reactor is the one that failed at a rate 300 times -
23
-- 300 percent higher than any other reactor had 24 failed? Why, gentlemen? Why?
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 (Applause.)
1 PARTICIPANT: Thank you for the question.
2 Just to reiterate, just for awareness, once this 3
occurred in March, we had significant inspections on 4
site, as well as continuing support from headquarters 5
in taking a look at this particular issue. The root 6
cause --- and this has been stated during the 7
presentations. I don't want to go over the 8
presentation too much, but the root cause is 9
radiation-assisted stress corrosion cracking.
10 PARTICIPANT: But why so much worse at 11 this reactor?
12 PARTICIPANT: In terms of looking at 13 (Inaudible) there is three factors. One of the 14 factors is the neutron fuel. Another factor is a 15 susceptible material, and a third factor is stress.
16 As we're looking at the (Inaudible) here, what we're 17 focusing on right now is there is something called a 18 down flow versus up flow in the flow between the 19 baffle plates. And we think we see some correlation 20 between that dynamic, and without going to too much 21 of a description, down flow is the flow between the 22 cold barrel and the baffle plates. And it comes 23 down, versus up flow, and it actually causes a 24 differential pressure across those baffle plates. We 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 think that that does add more stress, which is one of 1
the factors. But again, I think one of the things 2
that we're going to be looking at very closely, 3
relative to this issue, is the information that we 4
get not just from Indian Point when they do the bolt 5
exams, but also from other plants, as they do these 6
inspections.
7 Recognize, these inspections will be done 8
at all pressurized water reactors. We will get 9
additional information. We're seeing some additional 10 information coming from those plants, particularly 11 those with this down flow configuration.
12 PARTICIPANT: And you don't have the 13 results of the metallurgical analysis, and you won't 14 for months, so how can you re-open this reactor in 15 June when you still have so many open questions 16 unanswered?
17 (Applause.)
18 PARTICIPANT: I fully understand the 19 concern, as I said. You know, this is a high 20 percentage. It's not acceptable relative to Indian 21 Point 2. And I don't want to repeat too much of what 22 has been discussed by Jack, but with respect to Indian 23 Point 2, they have replaced the bolts. They're a new 24 design, with less stress on the heads. They are of 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 a different material that's less susceptible. They 1
have replaced all of the grade bolts, as well as 50 2
more strategically located bolts at higher stress, so 3
they're picking up more load to alleviate the load on 4
the other plant. So, relative to the question, that 5
gives us confidence relative to the restoration of 6
(Inaudible) configuration. For those reasons, we 7
don't believe that there is -- we don't have an 8
immediate safety concern relative to Indian Point 2 9
starting.
10 PARTICIPANT: If this is unacceptable, 11 and you can't explain yet without these test results, 12 why this rate of failure came to exist, how can you 13 be confident that other internal components aren't 14 degraded in a correlative fashion? You need to tear 15 this thing down before you re-open it, and you need 16 to close three and look at it tomorrow. That's what 17 safe means. I say this is as a man who was a 18 regulator for 13 years. You guys are living in a 19 dream world if you think what you're doing is safe.
20 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Next up is 21 Reginald Bowman.
22 MR. BOWMAN: Good evening, everybody.
23 My name is Reginald Bowman, and I am the president of 24 the Brooklyn East New York City Housing Authority 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Council of Presidents in Brooklyn, which is a few 1
miles south of here. Basically, I represent the 2
largest concentration of public housing in the United 3
States, where over 25,000 people live. And I'm also 4
the former president of the citywide council, which 5
represents over 344 conventional housing projects and 6
developments and over 400,000 residents in the City 7
of New York.
8 On behalf of the council and (Inaudible) 9 residents, I thank you for taking time to hear our 10 views on the importance of allowing Indian Point to 11 continue to operate. New York State has amongst the 12 highest electricity costs in the nation, and New York 13 City's electric rates are far higher, causing many 14 residents and those on fixed incomes, in particular, 15 to struggle each month to pay their energy bills.
16 Now we may not be familiar with the debate 17 of those who reside within the confines of this area 18 which I'm standing and Indian Point and the 19 controversy that seems to go on here, but we are 20 impacted by the service that we do get when we go to 21 our switches and turn our switches on and expect 22 electricity to work. And I find it very interesting 23 that people who are as intelligent as many of the 24 people in this room haven't come to some kind of an 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 amicable solution. However, I didn't come up here 1
to be a mediator. I just came to discuss the issues 2
of the people that I represent. So, as president of 3
the residential association and the groups that I 4
represent, I can't stand by as opponents of Indian 5
Point threaten to force our families to pay higher 6
rents, outrageous energy bills, and more essential 7
products and services.
8 Quite simply, New Yorkers need the power 9
from Indian Point. I'm sure that many of you in this 10 room may not agree with me, but we believe that it's 11 essential for the Indian Point reactor and its 12 facilities to continue to operate. And that's what 13 we believe, at this point, is right for New York.
14 I personally believe that in order for us 15 to solve this problem that we have, we have to address 16 it in a way that's going to make sure that those of 17 us who depend on the energy that comes from these 18 facilities are not negatively impacted by them just 19 arbitrarily wanting to shut something down and close 20 it and not think about the impact that it's going to 21 have on the daily lives of other people. Thank you.
22 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
23 MR. KLUKAN: All right, s it's 9:24.
24 Because we still have a bunch more speakers, we'd 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 like to --- we had a bunch more people who wanted to 1
speak tonight, and because we had some delay, we want 2
to extend the meeting until 10:10. So in case you 3
don't know where we are on the speaker list, we're on 4
around 9:10 on all the lists. So,they are available 5
outside if you want to see where you stand in that, 6
just to remind yourself. We're going to go until 7
10:10, okay? Not to delay any further, next up is 8
Susan Mafair (Phonetic).
9 MS. MAFAIR: I'm going to give my time 10 to Joann (Inaudible) she has something to say that 11 nobody else has said.
12 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Absolutely fine. Joann 13 is it?
14 MS. MAFAIR: Joann.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Okay, she'll be followed by 16 Sheila Geist (Phonetic), and then Bruce Green, so 17 whenever you're ready.
18 MS. DEVITO: Hi, my name is Joann Devito 19 (Phonetic). I'm here to speak about my family 20 tonight, but before I start, I want to address two 21 other speakers that spoke earlier. One was an 22 employee of three generations, and he said that he 23 did not -- I'm not used to public speaking, wait a 24 second -- he said that all the neighbors around the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 plant were happy that it was there. I was a neighbor.
1 The other speaker said she did not want to live in 2
fear of nuclear attack or an accident. I say let's 3
not live in fear, but live in reality. The reality 4
is my family was struck with cancer. My daughter, 5
Michelle, had cancer, my daughter, Tina, my daughter, 6
Jennifer, and then myself. All four of us have 7
thyroid cancer. I was treated at Yale University, 8
and our surgeon said that it was not genetic. It was 9
papillary carcinoma, which is environmental.
10 So how do you explain why four people in 11 one family were struck with thyroid cancer in two 12 months? We had our surgeries, all four of us, in two 13 months. And no one has addressed health issues here 14 and how it impacts us. How much poison is okay? A 15 little radiation leaking from the plant is okay? How 16 much --- a little bit of poison is okay? I don't 17 think so. If you have families, if you have children, 18 I really want you to search your hearts, and I pray 19 that you come up with more
- answers, better 20 investigations of this plant, and please shut it down.
21 Thank you for your time, and thanks for your 22 consideration.
23 (Applause.)
24 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for sharing that.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I'm sorry to hear about that. You have my 1
condolences. Again, next up is Sheila Geist.
2 MS. GEIST: I'm Sheila Geist. I'm a 3
lifelong at-large rights activist. And I want to 4
start to say that I am in agreement with many of the 5
previous speakers on the factual dangers from the AIM 6
pipeline, from the boats, from all of those safety 7
issues. And I want to particularly agree with 8
Catherine Skopic about --- that we don't have to 9
choose between gas and nuclear; we've got to get rid 10 of both of them. We have -- (Applause). If we close 11 Indian Point we can take the money and the subsidies 12 that go to nuclear and turn them to renewable energy.
13 This crap that you can't scale up 14 renewables is just that, pure bullshit. And I also 15 don't like the rule that if people lie to you about 16 how much power from nuclear that New York needs that 17 we should just sit quietly and smile and not call it 18 for the lies that they are.
19 It's contemptible, and it's insulting to 20 us when people just repeat this lie that's been 21 promoted not only by Entergy, but it's been repeated 22 by Bloomberg and by Clinton and by de Blasio and 23 speakers in this room. And if you're concerned about 24 jobs, then you need a renewable program, and you need 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 an offshore wind farm, and you need all of these 1
things that will provide jobs without poisoning the 2
environment. I think you're out of your fucking 3
minds if you're going to continue with one inspecting 4
Reactor 3, or keeping any of it open because it's a 5
danger, and you're not only a public health danger, 6
you're a threat to our rivers and our wildlife, but 7
you're a major threat to homeland security. I'm from 8
New York City, and I don't feel secure. I don't feel 9
secure even more so now after I have heard your 10 presentations.
11 I want to say that the first NRC hearing 12 I attended was the most surreal political experience 13 I had in a very long lifetime. It started by a 14 presentation that boasted of the hundreds of safety 15 inspections that were given exemptions and the safety 16 requirements that they gave exemptions to that were 17 issued that year. I thought I had heard 1,100.
18 (Inaudible) tells me that that thing five years ago 19 was maybe 110.
20 You can check your records, but it was 21 off the wall. What I heard here today, I thought you 22 haven't learned anything. I've been at the last 23 bunch of hearings. You've heard the testimony, and 24 the same shit is coming down the line. When I was 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 walked in, I found this button. It says, "Indian 1
Point, safe, secure, and vital." Safe, I think has 2
been clear. And then on top of that, the AIM pipeline 3
is totaled, so close it down, and stop pretending 4
that you represent anything but Entergy's profits.
5 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
6 (Applause.)
7 MR. KLUKAN: Bruce Green is up next. He 8
will be followed by Barrett (Phonetic) Silver, and 9
then Patricia Soto. So again, Mr. Green, you're up 10 next.
11 MR. GREEN: Hello, good evening. My name 12 is Bruce Green, and I'm the president of Brooklyn 13 Anti-Violence Coalition out of Brooklyn. And, as an 14 active member in my community, I speak here today on 15 health and safety issues of my neighbors. Right now, 16 New York City violates multiple federal clean air 17 regulations. Far too long, poor air qualities in our 18 communities have led to alarming high asthma rates, 19 placing most of our vulnerable residents at 20 (Inaudible).
21 Despite
- this, there's a
continuing 22 discussion about shutting down Indian Point. This 23 is a facility that is our largest source of clean 24 electricity, and study shows that closing Indian 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Point would lead to significant higher levels of air 1
pollution. Higher levels of air pollution means more 2
asthma attacks, respiratory disease in my community.
3 There's no reason that should occur. Indian Point 4
is capable of providing clean power for many years 5
into the future. I just want to add, Reggie Bowman 6
spoke earlier. He said he represented, at one point, 7
over 400,000 residents in New York City housing. And 8
what I'm hearing is a partnership that could be 9
created. Take some of these inner city youth to 10
- work, building the windmills and the solar 11 energy -- I'm sorry, guys. This is something I'm 12 adding to this.
13 I mean, we can put some folks to work 14 that don't have work and teach them how to feed 15 themselves, and then we could come to --- as we close 16 out in one area, we can open up in another. But we 17 have thousands of young people down city that need 18 jobs. We have closed community centers that we can 19 use to teach and train them in. Thank you.
20 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
21 (Applause.)
22 MR. KLUKAN: Next up is Barrett Silver, 23 followed by Patricia Soto, and then John Ravitz.
24 MR. SILVER: My name is Barrett Silver, 25
103 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and I live in Chappaqua. It's about 11 miles from 1
the Indian Point plants. I've been attending the 2
Nuclear Regulatory Commission's meetings for about 14 3
or 15 years now. First, I want to thank you for what 4
I realize must be quite a thankless job. It can't 5
be fun to come to these open public hearings every 6
year and have abuse hurled at you, and have people 7
that don't fully understand the risks complain about 8
things that maybe are beyond their ability to fully 9
understand. But, I've seen different issues come in 10 and out of the spotlight over the past 14 years. For 11 a while there, we were worried about evacuation plans 12 that we didn't think were workable, and then we were 13 also worried about some fire safety issues that were 14 never fully resolved.
15 Now we're talking about gas pipelines and 16 cracked bolts in the reactors. At other points, we 17 were talking about earthquake risks, tritium leaks, 18 siren malfunctions and Hudson River fish kills. At 19 some point, we thought well, maybe this will all go 20 away because the plants won't get their license 21 renewed, and they won't be able to operate once that 22 happens.
23 Well, that didn't really work out the way 24 we were expecting because we still have plants 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 operating without licenses. I don't understand that, 1
and I don't understand the thinking that goes behind 2
the idea that we can look at each one of these risks 3
in isolation and not learn the lessons from the 4
failures that have occurred in Chernobyl and at 5
Fukushima, where there were multiple simultaneous 6
failures. I'd like to ask you what it would take for 7
you to actually close these plants down? I want to 8
have a specific example of what would need to occur 9
for you to take a proactive stance. Give me one 10 example of something that would actually cause you to 11 close these plants.
12 PARTICIPANT:
(Inaudible) before a
13 meltdown.
14 PARTICIPANT: Sorry. We would close the 15 plant if the plant was operating unsafely. We have 16 done so with --- as an example ---
17 MR. SILVER: Please define what you mean 18 specifically.
19 PARTICIPANT: For example, we have 20 issued -- back in 1987, we issued an order to shut 21 down Peach Bottom. That was done, and I recall that 22 the region administrator at the time went to the 23 president of the company, handed him a shutdown order, 24 and they shut down immediately.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. SILVER: Please give me a specific 1
example of something that would cause you to close 2
these plants.
3 PARTICIPANT: The issue associated with 4
Peach Bottom was sleeping operators.
5 PARTICIPANT: What?
6 PARTICIPANT: Sleeping operators.
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 PARTICIPANT: So the plant was shut down.
9 It was shut down (Inaudible) and until the licensee 10 can demonstrate that it can ensure the safety and the 11 plant, and we did not allow them to start up until 12 that occurred.
13 MR. SILVER: Can you give me an example 14 of criteria where you take multiple risks into account 15 as they could fail simultaneously? Because that's 16 been the pattern where we've had catastrophic dangers 17 occur.
18 PARTICIPANT:
So, relative to our 19 probabilistic risk analysis, we do assume multiple 20 failures, and we do analyze the risks associated with 21 it. That's inherent in our oversight process in our 22 assessment of safety. And that's integrated into our 23 oversight process, it's integrated into many of the 24 actions that we do and take. That ensures safety.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 We weigh the risks and make sure that the appropriate 1
actions are taken by the licensee.
2 MR. SILVER: Well I have to say that for 3
someone who has been an observer of this process for 4
many years, we start to lose confidence in the actual 5
possibility that that outcome could occur because we 6
see, year after year, that regardless of what happens, 7
they're either green or white ratings, and they never 8
seem to make any difference.
9 PARTICIPANT: Thank you.
10 (Applause.)
11 MS. SOTO: Good evening. My name is 12 Patricia Soto, and I'm the former president of the 13 League of Women Voters of Rockland County. My league 14 formed a local study group several years ago, which 15 studied the functions of nuclear plants, in general, 16 and Indian Point, specifically. We also received a 17 physical tour of the Indian Point facility.
18 After further study and discussion, we 19 reached consensus, and the local league consensus 20 resulted in a program to support action to close 21 Indian Point for the protection of the health and 22 safety of the community and for transportation and 23 disposal of waste materials and for evacuation plans.
24 Although we were impressed with the high standard 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 safety measures (Inaudible)by you, the administration 1
and staff at Indian Point every day.
2 They have made strides toward improving 3
communication and evacuation plans every year, we 4
still are concerned about the waste storage and its 5
potential danger to the surrounding community given 6
natural or other disasters. (Inaudible) Indian Point 7
were to close tomorrow, there's probably (Inaudible) 8 years. (Inaudible) the various solutions for 9
transportation (Inaudible) have been suggested and 10 have not been successful. (Inaudible) which is 11 becoming more and more densely populated, has not 12 been able to be implemented. We feel that as the 13 plant ages and (Inaudible) storage takes up more and 14 more space, it needs to be --- this becomes 15 increasingly important and needs to be addressed now.
16 Thank you for your time and for the opportunity to 17 comment.
18 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Next up is John 19 Ravitz (Phonetic), followed by Edie Kantralowicz 20 (Phonetic), and then Frank Fraley (Phonetic), okay 21 but next up is, again, John Ravitz.
22 MR. RAVITZ: Thank you. I do have a 23 slide. I don't know if the slides are still -- thank 24 you very much. Good evening, and again, thank you 25
108 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 for your service and for being here. My name is John 1
Ravitz. I'm the executive vice president and chief 2
operating officer for the Business Council of 3
Westchester.
4 We are the largest business membership 5
organization in Westchester County. And one of our 6
continuing priorities through our legislative agenda 7
is the re-licensing of Indian Point, and if we could 8
go to the next slide please. We did an independent 9
study, an assessment of what would happen if the plant 10 were to close in Westchester County. And again, the 11 numbers speak for themselves. Thirty three hundred 12 jobs would be lost. Those are 3,300 families that 13 would be affected by the closing of Indian Point.
14 The economic, $11.5 billion in lost economic output.
15 The spike in electricity costs would be plus 6.3 16 percent.
17 Now, remember, we're trying to bring 18 businesses back to Westchester County to create jobs 19 for the residents of Westchester County. What 20 message would it send when businesses around the 21 country see the spike in electricity costs if the 22 plant were to close? And we looked at the number of 23 all of us who are taxpayers here, $374 million more 24 would be paid by consumers annually. Next slide 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 please. We see the probability of significant 1
electric outages across the county.
2 Seventy-five million dollars in property 3
taxes and fees that, again, would be lost in all of 4
our communities. And again, it's been talked about 5
today, but I think it should continue to be 6
highlighted about the responsible corporate support 7
that Entergy has given to every city, town and village 8
in Westchester County. Two million dollars to local 9
charities, that's not a small number. But more 10 importantly, think about the lives that are being 11 positively affected by the contributions that Entergy 12 has made to every municipality in Westchester County.
13 Now on another note, I was the former CEO of the 14 American Red Cross in Westchester County. And I sat 15 in on many tabletop exercises in which the Entergy 16 teams talked about preparedness, talked about 17 evacuation. They were serious; they were committed; 18 and no one in this room should ever think that safety 19 is not a top priority for the people who run that 20 plant 24/7.
21 So again, we, at the Business Council of 22 Westchester, when we talk about jobs, when we talk 23 about creating economic wealth for everyone in 24 Westchester County, the role of Indian Point plays a 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 significant role. The role of Indian Point is 1
something that we count on, we need, and the re-2 licensing should be put through as soon as possible.
3 Thank you again for your service.
4 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
5 (Applause.)
6 MS.
KANTRALOWICZ:
Hi, I'm Edie 7
Kantralowicz (Inaudible) for the Friends of Clear 8
Water. I have to say that many of us members of the 9
public are just totally baffled, at this point, and 10 it's not just about the bolts. Yes, we are baffled 11 how so many bolts could be missing in action and 12 floating around inside the reactor, and we are baffled 13 how Entergy could even consider starting Reactor 2 14 again until this situation is not only totally 15 corrected, but also totally understood, as to its 16 root causes, as requested by Friends of the Earth.
17 We're baffled how anyone, given the circumstances, 18 could consider postponing an immediate and thorough 19 inspection of Reactor 3.
20 But it goes much deeper than that. We're 21 baffled that Entergy and the NRC seem to be in 22 complete denial about what thin ice we are skating on 23 by allowing Indian Point reactors to continue 24 operating in the first place. We are baffled that 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there seems to be no understanding about the risk we 1
are taking, that on any given day the plant is 2
operating, an accident or seismic incident could 3
cause a meltdown of this aging (Inaudible) facility, 4
which is literally falling apart, and normal life for 5
this entire region could come to an end essentially 6
forever.
7 I will say that again. Indian Point has 8
the capacity to bring normal life in this region to 9
an end, essentially forever, like it happened at 10 Chernobyl, like it happened at Fukushima. We're 11 talking about the entire New York City metro, meaning 12 New York City, Westchester, the Hudson Valley, and 13 parts of New Jersey and Connecticut, and this is not 14 a remote risk, either. I am baffled that the parties 15 that have the responsibility for ensuring our safety 16 are choosing to close their eyes to that reality. We 17 know that this is the U.S. nuclear plant most likely 18 to experience reactor core damage from an earthquake.
19 We know that having a 42-inch gas pipeline right next 20 to it is a recipe for disaster.
21 We know that there is no realistic 22 evacuation plan and no possibility of such a plan, 23 and we know that the incidents and accidents are 24 becoming more and more frequent. Nuclear energy is 25
112 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 unnecessary. I'm just really, really baffled that 1
we're still doing it. We don't need nuclear power 2
to meet our energy needs, and we don't need it to 3
meet our climate goals.
4 And if we close down Indian Point, we 5
don't need gas or fossil fuels to replace the energy.
6 We don't have to worry how to replace the power 7
because it's already been replaced by renewables, by 8
efficiency, by transmission upgrades. We won't get 9
more asthma. We won't have dirty air. We won't have 10 electricity increases, either, because Indian Point 11 doesn't supply 25 percent of New York City's 12 electricity. That is a lie, and we need to close 13 down Indian Point, and we need to do it now.
14 (Applause.)
15 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
16 MR. FRALEY: Good evening. My name is 17 Frank Fraley, and I'm president of Share New York.
18 Share is a non-profit coalition of organizations, 19 including community
- groups, local chambers of 20 commerce and houses of worship. We're committed to 21 ensuring the continued supply of reliable, clean, and 22 affordable electricity for all New Yorkers.
23 Today and in the future, the clean, 24 affordable power produced by Indian Point Energy 25
113 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Center is needed more than ever. Asthma and other 1
respiratory illnesses continue to plague urban 2
communities, especially the under-served communities 3
where many of our members live. Worse, the depth of 4
the problem is becoming clearer each year.
5 Just recently, New York University had a 6
study that showed that air pollution is linked to 7
nearly 16,000 premature births, at a cost of $4.3 8
billion annually. Removing Indian Point from 9
service, a virtually emission-free source of power, 10 would worse an already bad problem. Replacement 11 electricity would almost certainly be generated by 12 fossil fuel-burning sources, as solar and wind are 13 unable to reach the scale of Indian Point's 14 generation. Nitric oxide, sulfur dioxide, and carbon 15 dioxide levels would all rise, and in lockstep, we'd 16 see an increase in asthma attacks, premature births, 17 and respiratory disease. Beyond the clean energy the 18 facility produces, Indian Point is a vital source of 19 electricity.
20 The importance of the facility has been 21 consistently recognized by the New York State 22 Independent System Operator, the independent group 23 charged with keeping our lights on, as Indian Point 24 generates 25 percent of New York City and 25
114 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Westchester's power.
Furthermore, rigorous and 1
ongoing inspections have determined that the facility 2
is safe.
3 A safe facility with these benefits must 4
be allowed to continue to operate. Without Indian 5
Point, electric rates would rise, air quality would 6
be harmed, and thousands of jobs would be jeopardized.
7 For these reasons, Share and its member organizations 8
firmly support the continued operation of Indian 9
Point and call for the relicensing of this essential 10 facility. Thank you.
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. KLUKAN: Next up, we have -- it's 15 either Michelle or Michael Lee. I feel bad because 16 I feel --
17 PARTICIPANT: Michelle.
18 MR. KLUKAN: Michelle, there you go.
19 Michelle Lee is up next, and then Deb Malone. So 20 Michelle Lee, and then Deb Malone.
21 MS. LEE: Okay, am I good? Okay, I'm going 22 to skip the big speech. I want to ask you some 23 questions. In your response to Paul -- and I 24 apologize. I have laryngitis. Maybe I can get a 25
115 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 (Inaudible) accommodation, have a few extra seconds.
1 You said that the reason for the baffle bolts' 2
deterioration was three items, the neutron field, 3
susceptible material, and stress. Okay, the neutron 4
field, are you talking about the neutron flux? What 5
are you talking about?
6 PARTICIPANT: Yes, we're talking about 7
the neutron flux, it's (Inaudible) the core, so it's 8
generating a high concentration of (Simultaneous 9
speaking).
10 MS. LEE: And that is, because you believe 11 the down flow, you think that's affecting the neutron 12 flux?
13 PARTICIPANT: No, the down flow of 14 the -- between the baffle bolts and the core barrel, 15 the down flow is not associated with the neutron flux.
16 It's associated with a stress that's put on the bolts 17 (Simultaneous speaking).
18 MS. LEE: Okay, so that's the third item?
19 PARTICIPANT: That was the third factor.
20 Just to be clear, there's a lot of things that add 21 stress to the bolts beyond just the differential 22 pressure, but we're believing that there may be a 23 linkage here.
24 MS. LEE: Okay, so the neutron field 25
116 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 issue, what precisely is different about Indian Point 1
from all other reactors?
2 PARTICIPANT: My comment, in terms of to 3
Paul, was associated with in terms of do we see any 4
kind of initial linkage? Not so much on the neutron 5
field. We do see susceptible bolts in what's called 6
(Simultaneous speaking).
7 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, can you move yourself 8
a little closer to the mic? I'm having trouble 9
hearing you.
10 PARTICIPANT: I'm sorry; is this better?
11 So, we are seeing that they are more susceptible bolts 12 than other bolts. For example, the bolts that we're 13 seeing more failure in is the Stainless Steel 347 14 (Phonetic) bolts.
15 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, 347?
16 PARTICIPANT: Three forty-seven. What 17 they have replaced in the replacement bolts is 316.
18 And we have seen much less failures in those. In 19 fact, we haven't seen any -- you can correct me if 20 I'm wrong (Inaudible) we haven't seen any, to date, 21 in the U.S. industry on 316 bolts. In fact, there's 22 edge bolts in the --- that tie together the former 23 plates at Indian Point. Those are actually 316 bolts 24 that are held -- based on a visual inspection, there 25
117 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 was no defect identified in the edge bolts. While we 1
don't take credit for that, it does provide some 2
structural integrity for the baffle plates.
3 MS. LEE: What about the bolts in Indian 4
Point Unit 3? Are any of those 347?
5 PARTICIPANT: They're the same design, 6
in terms of the bolts in Indian Point 3 is 347.
7 MS. LEE: So the same problem material 8
is in Indian Point 3 as in Indian Point 2, with 9
respect to the bolts?
10 PARTICIPANT: Yes.
11 MS. LEE: Okay. Very interesting. And 12 that inspection's going to be delayed until 2017 still 13 (Simultaneous speaking)?
14 PARTICIPANT: Slides will be available.
15 Part of the basis for why we don't believe that 16 there's an immediate concern for Indian Point 3 is 17 because there is monitoring of loose parts and fuel 18 leaks. That should be an indication of any kind of 19 significant degradation associated with the baffle 20 bolts. In addition, we talked about less operating 21 time. And this is not since licensing, it's what we 22 call effective full power years. So Indian Point 3 23 has less, so what that means is they have cumulatively 24 less neutron flux.
25
118 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 There is another factor, as well, in 1
terms of stress. There's actually a difference in 2
the design of Indian Point 3 versus Indian Point 2, 3
and operating history, in which there is actually 4
less stress on the bolts from the down (Inaudible),
5 as well as just operating history with respect to 6
Indian Point 3. They have had less trips over the 7
history of the plant than Indian Point 2.
8 MS. LEE: What about high burner fuel, 9
that adds to the problem of (Inaudible) heat, right?
10 (Simultaneous speaking) And I assume neutron flux, 11 correct?
12 PARTICIPANT: High burner fuel is fuel 13 that has been burned for more than 45 gigawatt days 14 per metric ton uranium. That probably doesn't mean 15 much. What the NRC did in their research -- I worked 16 in research for a while -- we did independent 17 verifications. And one of the things that we looked 18 at was high burner fuel, whether or not that would 19 impact the structure of those rods and (Inaudible) 20 those rods. Early indications, in terms of our 21 studies, we're not sure. And so, that was --- I 22 remember that was an area of concern. We continued 23 to do reviews and what we found is on additional 24 tests, it's less of a potential issue than we thought.
25
119 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 We believe that there's not a safety impact here.
1 Some of the preliminary tests, itself, shows that the 2
fuel rods are much stronger than (Simultaneous 3
speaking).
4 MS. LEE: I'm not asking you about the 5
fuel rods, I'm asking you about the baffle bolts.
6 PARTICIPANT: I'm sorry, I thought you 7
were asking about high burner fuel.
8 MS. LEE: I'm talking about the effect 9
of the high burner fuel and conditions (Simultaneous 10 speaking) in the reactor core.
11 PARTICIPANT: That should not have any 12 impact, in terms of the neutron flux. It will still 13 have approximately -- when you operate at 100 percent 14 power, you generate --
15 MS. LEE: Yes, right. You have U.S. rod 16 studies that say neutron flux has a direct effect -- I 17 mean that high burner fuel has a direct effect on 18 neutron flux (Inaudible)?
19 PARTICIPANT: So high burner fuel, the 20 concern was the neutron flux would (Inaudible) the 21 rods.
22 MS. LEE: But that's what was looked at, 23 but it's actually the alloys in the metals that it 24 has an effect on.
25
120 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 PARTICIPANT: Yes. So I know we're going 1
back and forth. I think maybe this is probably a 2
discussion (Inaudible) between the high burner fuel 3
and the impact on neutron (Inaudible) on the fuel 4
versus the baffle bolts. We can certainly discuss 5
that, but I think at this point, probably we're having 6
some difficulty in communicating.
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 PARTICIPANT: -- neutron flux, we're 9
talking about what impact on what material.
10 MR. KLUKAN: Yeah, how about one more 11 question or comment?
12 MS. LEE: Okay. I'm sorry?
13 MR. KLUKAN: Just one more question or 14 comment because --- the back and forth I've had a 15 hard time keeping track.
16 MS. LEE: I understand. I just really 17 want to correct the record here. You said that your 18 agency and Entergy were very well aware that there 19 could be -- that these baffle bolt problems --- during 20 the Atomic Safety Licensing Board hearings, that was 21 not the case. There was actually an assertion made 22 that there was not going to be a problem to worry 23 about --- so the actual record on this issue, of 24 foresight is really a lot to be desired. Thank you.
25
121 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
1 (Applause.)
2 MR. KLUKAN: All right, next up is Deb 3
Malone. She will be followed by Kyleen (Inaudible).
4 MS. MALONE: And I have slides.
5 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Then she will be 6
followed by Bill Meady (Phonetic). So next up is 7
Deb, followed by Kyleen (Phonetic), and then Bill 8
Meady.
9 MS. MALONE: My name is Deb Malone, and 10 I am the executive director of the Hudson Valley 11 Gateway Chamber of Commerce. We represent over 500 12 businesses and organizations in the lower Hudson 13 Valley region. The Hudson Valley Gateway Chamber of 14 Commerce supports the continued operation of Indian 15 Point because we know the important role that a clean 16 and safe power source plays in supporting the economy.
17 Businesses need affordable electricity to operate and 18 expand, and only Indian Point can provide this in a 19 clean, reliable manner. Next slide please. There is 20 no way to replace Indian Point's 2,000 megawatts of 21 power without turning to fossil fuel plants that belch 22 soot and toxic emissions. In fact, Indian Point's 23 operation prevents over 8.5 million tons of carbon 24 dioxide annually. Next slide please. Our economy will 25
122 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 take a hard blow if Indian Point is closed. Providing 1
more than $140 million a year in income to local 2
families, these wages support about 2,800 more jobs 3
in our communities.
4 Few businesses in the area have had the 5
impact Indian Point has had for our local economy.
6 Seeing Indian Point leave would cause irreparable 7
damages. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission conducts 8
safety inspections of every nuclear power plant in 9
the country, and Indian Point has long been the most 10 scrutinized. These inspections have all reached the 11 same conclusion, that Indian Point is a top of the 12 line model for safety, and Indian Point should receive 13 its license renewal.
14 Indian Point is more than just a safe 15 energy source. It is the key to driving economic 16 growth while attaining New York State's emissions 17 goals. Let me say, in closing, why this particular 18 public hearing is not related to license renewal. I 19 think it's a travesty that the government has taken 20 more than nine years and counting to review Indian 21 Point's license renewal application. Thousands upon 22 thousands of hours of inspections and reviews have 23 demonstrated the plant is safe. It is time for the 24 NRC to award this safe facility the renewed license 25
123 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 it deserves. The company has made the investments 1
needed to make sure the plant runs safely, and the 2
employees and the public need to know we can count on 3
this critical resource in the future. Thank you.
4 (Applause.)
5 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay, Kyleen is 6
next, followed by Bill Meady, who will then be 7
followed by Jane Califf (Phonetic).
8 PARTICIPANT: Okay. Thank you. My name 9
is (Inaudible), and I've been protesting Indian Point 10 for 39 years. So I am baffled that I still have to 11 come here and speak before you. I learned about 12 nuclear energy in college -- that was 39 years 13 ago -- in biology for survival.
14 And once I learned that we're risking 15 life on Earth to boil water, make steam, and turn a 16 turbine, that was it. I started protesting. Then 17 came Three Mile Island, then came Chernobyl, and then 18 came Fukushima. After Fukushima, I thought I would 19 be joined by billions. I thought the whole world 20 would speak up and say this is unacceptable. This 21 risk is totally unacceptable. But they didn't, 22 because people believe that scientists know what 23 they're doing. I don't. I've been doing this for 24 39 years. You said that all the problems at Indian 25
124 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Point were on the non-nuclear side of the plant, and 1
now they're in your core.
2 So I hope that you really look at this 3
issue of Indian Point with the two earthquake faults, 4
the bolts, these analyses that go on forever, 5
mechanical failure after mechanical failure, human 6
mistakes, vents that are left open and, for three 7
days, radiation is going over the Hudson Valley. How 8
many transmission fires do we need? We're boiling 9
water to make steam to turn a turbine. Shut Indian 10 Point down so I don't have to come here the 40th year.
11 Thank you.
12 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
13 PARTICIPANT: Good evening. I'm here on 14 behalf of Bill Meady, president and CEO of the 15 Business Council of Westchester. I'm here to express 16 our support for continued operation of Indian Point 17 Entergy Center. Indian Point is a significant source 18 of power, putting out over 2,000 megawatts of 19 electricity for homes/businesses in Westchester 20 County, and responsible for 11 percent of all power 21 used in New York State. Westchester County runs on 22 Indian Point. Its reliable power to hospitals, 23 schools, and offices throughout the region has 24 allowed Westchester to grow economically. Industry 25
125 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 is attracted to affordable, reliable power available 1
as long as Indian Point continues to operate. Indian 2
Point supports approximately 3,300 jobs in 3
Westchester County, and up to 40,000 jobs in New York 4
State.
5 New York Independent System Operator, 6
current and past New York City mayoral 7
administrations, and the Charles River Association 8
have all concluded Indian Point is necessary to 9
maintain low electricity rates and clean air in the 10 region. The Association is focused on promoting 11 economic development in Westchester and in coaching 12 businesses to grow throughout the region. Indian 13 Point's continued operation is necessary to achieve 14 this goal and maintain a strong regional economy.
15 Thank you.
16 PARTICIPANT: Shut it down.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. We're at 10:06, 18 so these will be our last two speakers of the evening.
19 Next up is Jane Califf. Is she in the room? Okay, 20 and then our very last speaker will be Al Samuels.
21 Is Al here?
22 PARTICIPANT: That's ridiculous.
23 PARTICIPANT: There are people here 24 (Simultaneous speaking).
25
126 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 PARTICIPANT: What happened to 10:30?
1 MR. KLUKAN: I announced that we were 2
ending at 10:10.
3 (Simultaneous speaking.)
4 MR. KLUKAN: We can end the meeting now, 5
if you'd like (Simultaneous speaking).
6 PARTICIPANT: (Simultaneous speaking) I 7
was not called. I signed up at 6:30.
8 PARTICIPANT: Unacceptable. I signed up 9
at 6:00.
10 MR. KLUKAN: We have the list outside.
11 I can show you I've been going in order. I apologize 12 to those of you --
13 PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible.)
14 PARTICIPANT: That's not true.
15 MR. KLUKAN: I will gladly go over the 16 list with you outside this room. Would you please 17 like to speak, so we can at least get two additional 18 people in?
19 PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible.)
20 MS. CALIFF: My name is Jane Califf, but 21 I think there was (Inaudible).
22 MR. KLUKAN: No, Jane, you're next. Go 23 for it.
24 MS. CALIFF: Okay. I live in Bloomfield, 25
127 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 New Jersey. And I --- my town lies within the 50-mile 1
radius where, if there's a meltdown at Indian Point, 2
my town will become uninhabitable. And so for many 3
of the reasons that have been mentioned today, I've 4
always had an interest in this nuclear plant.
5 The thing that drives --- that anybody I 6
talk to says there's a nuclear plant on two earthquake 7
fault lines, I don't even have to tell them anything 8
else. That's like crazy. I mean, I don't know ---
9 you could have the most perfect plant, maybe, but if 10 they're on top of two earthquake fault lines, that's 11 really a hopeless situation. We could have one. We 12 do have earthquakes in New York and the East Coast.
13 And then today I --- recently, I've 14 learned about the Spectra pipeline. I heard here, 15 somebody up here on the platform, from the NRC, say 16 that they have -- or somebody from the audience who's 17 involved with the fire department -- that there's a 18 way, if there's an explosion of the Spectra pipeline 19 that there's good fire equipment to take care of it, 20 but I am related --- I work with a group called 21 (Inaudible) station in New Jersey and the Williams 22 (Inaudible) Gas Company built a compressor station to 23 push more gas through a 60 yard pipeline. And when 24 we asked them, "Suppose it explodes, what's going to 25
128 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 happen?" "Oh, you have to call Texas, and then Texas 1
will quickly call the appropriate trained people in 2
the fire industry to put it out." Because the 3
ordinary fire departments cannot put out gas fires.
4 They just can't do it.
5 So for you to agree to put a gas pipeline, 6
42 inches, with all that gas going through, right 7
next to this facility that could have a meltdown for 8
many of the reasons that people caused --- said today, 9
is just unconscionable, I believe. And I would like 10
-- so that's really something you should be thinking 11 about because there's no way for an ordinary fire 12 department to put out a gas fire, especially if it's 13 next to a nuclear power plant which is going to 14 probably have all kinds of problems after that.
15 And I would like to say, in closing, I 16 have a lot of sympathy for workers who need jobs and 17 the whole idea that if you don't have Indian Point, 18 you have to have fossil fuels. Why don't people 19 realize now that solar energy is the largest growing 20 source of energy in this country? And if all the 21 subsidies that go to promoting fossil fuels and the 22 nuclear industry went to support clean energy like 23 solar energy, we would have lots of jobs, millions of 24 jobs all over the country. There's no reason why 25
129 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 there can't be tens of thousands of jobs that take 1
the place of the ones that would be ended by the fact 2
that Indian Point will be closed. So there are many 3
reasons to close this plant, and hopefully you'll 4
listen to the public finally, after all these many 5
endless years of people coming -- I think people have 6
to become even more militant and think of more 7
creative ways to make these people listen.
8 (Applause.)
9 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
10 PARTICIPANT: How many people here still 11 haven't gotten to speak? Please raise your hands.
12 How many people here still haven't had an opportunity 13 to speak? How many is that? Let's count: one, two, 14 three, four, five, six.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Mr. Samuels, would you like 16 to begin?
17 MR. SAMUELS: Thank you. Gentlemen, my 18 name is Al Samuels. I'm the president and CEO of the 19 Rockland Business Association. We are a regional 20 association dealing with advocacy, public policy, 21 economic development. Twenty-five percent of our 22 membership is from outside of Rockland; 8 percent 23 happens to be from Westchester. Technically, we do 24 not derive a direct benefit from Indian Point.
25
130 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Indian Point does not supply energy to Rockland 1
County. But we are, as I said, very regional in our 2
approach. I have the privilege of serving as a voting 3
member on the Regional Economic Development Council.
4 I have the opportunity to gain a perspective, from 5
these various roles that I play, to know the 6
importance of Indian Point to the entire region. You 7
know gentlemen know it, too. I have listened 8
tonight, as I have for the past seven or eight years 9
coming to these meetings, to attacks on your 10 integrity.
11 Maybe we have to evaluate, in the 12 business community, the fact that we have confidence 13 in the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, maybe the 14 credentials that you gentlemen have. Maybe we're 15 impressed by them, and we shouldn't be. For those of 16 you who have served in the military and have been 17 involved with nuclear subs, I have great admiration 18 for you. I, too, was part of the Department of the 19 Navy, but we joked.
20 We said the men's department was the 21 Marine Corps. I know you knew where I was going with 22 that. We thank you for the due diligence that you 23 provide every time you go through these examinations.
24 We appreciate the fact that you have answered the 25
131 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 questions, even though your answers aren't acceptable 1
to people who absolutely do not want to hear what you 2
have to say unless you are saying what they want to 3
hear. It's an unfortunate situation that in economic 4
development, we have that in so many quarters. This 5
one just happens to be magnified because of the fear 6
that exists with regard to nuclear energy. We think 7
it's safe. We think it's clean. We think it's vital 8
to our region, not just to Westchester, not just to 9
New York City, but to the entire region of the 10 mid-Hudson Valley.
11 This is an important component to what we 12 do in economic development in being able to attract 13 business. One of the fastest growing businesses in 14 our region, industries that are coming here, is the 15 cluster of data centers. It's one of the most 16 intensive energy-using industries, but it's clean, 17 and it's reliable, and they're good-paying jobs. We 18 have the ability to provide that in Westchester and 19 in the surrounding area.
20 So I want to thank you for what you've 21 done. I feel badly for the personal attacks that you 22 have experienced here tonight, as I know you have 23 before. We believe in it. You know what, if I'm the 24 last speaker, and I'm not getting any signs, but I'm 25
132 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 going to end now. I'd like to end it on a note that 1
maybe people can all chuckle over. I'm two years 2
away from being twice as old as Indian Point. If 3
science and medicine can keep me going, I am convinced 4
it can keep Indian Point going. God bless.
5 (Applause.)
6 MR. KLUKAN: All right, thank you.
7 PARTICIPANT: Stop speaking for other 8
people. You're not speaking for me. I have been 9
here since 6:00. I feel that I have the right to 10 have my views spoken to. I respect all of you, and 11 I would like to say my three minutes.
12 PARTICIPANT: Thank you. We will be out 13 in the hallway. We can certainly respond to any 14 questions that you have. For this meeting, I do 15 appreciate everybody's patience.
16 PARTICIPANT: You are not doing a good 17 job. This is outrageous.
18 MR. KLUKAN: I'm sorry. I can show you 19 the list.
20 PARTICIPANT: This is outrageous.
21 MR. KLUKAN: I can show you the list. We 22 actually got through --
23 PARTICIPANT: I want to see the list.
24 MR. KLUKAN: Fine, they're right here.
25
133 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 They're right here. We actually got through more 1
speakers than last year.
2 PARTICIPANT: I appreciate you. And 3
this is the fact, you know, without a nuclear 4
accident.
5 PARTICIPANT: Okay. Here's three lists.
6 MR. KLUKAN: Excuse me, for the audience, 7
I'm sorry we did not get to you tonight. If you'd 8
like to provide written comments to me, either in 9
person or via email, please do so. I will gladly 10 append it to the transcript for the meeting.
11 PARTICIPANT: The list I signed is not 12 here.
13 MR. KLUKAN: What list?
14 PARTICIPANT: Yes, it's on the back.
15 PARTICIPANT: Now you're speaking for me?
16 MR. KLUKAN: If you would please vacate 17 the room, so the hotel staff can start to tear down.
18 PARTICIPANT: This is garbage that you're 19 doing this again. This is garbage. I'm sorry, it's 20 garbage. We will not accept this as the way the NRC 21 runs a public hearing. In our region, public 22 hearings let everyone speak.
23 PARTICIPANT: I came here, and I signed 24 the --
25
134 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 PARTICIPANT: It's all garbage. The NRC 1
should not be allowed --
2 PARTICIPANT: I am not going to be 3
escorted from this room.
4 PARTICIPANT: Yes, you are.
5 PARTICIPANT: The NRC does not have the 6
right --
7 PARTICIPANT: Let's go outside and --
8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled hearing 9
was concluded at approximately 10:10 p.m.)
10