ML092870331
| ML092870331 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Watts Bar  |
| Issue date: | 10/06/2009 |
| From: | NRC/OCM |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NRC-3114 | |
| Download: ML092870331 (75) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Environmental Scoping Opportunity for Public Comments: RE Watts Bar Unit 2 Afternoon Session Docket Number:
50-391 Location:
Sweetwater, Tennessee Date:
Tuesday, October 6, 2009 Work Order No.:
NRC-3114 Pages 1-74 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3
x 4
MEETING ON ENVIRONMENTAL SCOPING 5
OPPORTUNITY FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS Docket No. 50-391 6
WATTS BAR NUCLEAR PLANT UNIT 2 7
x 8
Tuesday, October 6, 2009 9
10 Andrew Johnson Room 11 Magnuson Hotel 12 1421 Murrays Chapel Road 13 Sweetwater, Tennessee 14 The meeting convened at 1:30 p.m.
15 PANEL MEMBERS:
16 FRANCIS X. "CHIP" CAMERON, Facilitator 17 PATRICK MILANO, Sr. Project Manager 18 DENNIS BEISSEL, Environmental Project Manager 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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P R O C E E D I N G S 1
MR. CAMERON: Thank you. My name is Chip 2
Cameron, and I work for the Executive Director for 3
Operations at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the 4
NRC. And it's my pleasure to serve as your 5
facilitator for today's meeting.
6 And our topic today is the NRC's process 7
for reviewing potential environmental impacts from the 8
licensing of a new nuclear reactor at Watts Bar. We 9
received a license application from the Tennessee 10 Valley Authority, TVA, to finish construction and 11 operate a new reactor, Watts Bar 2.
12 And what I'd like to do is just go through 13 a few meeting process issues so you know what to 14 expect this afternoon, before we get to the substance 15 of our discussions, and I'd like to talk to you about 16 the format for the meeting, some simple ground rules 17 to help us all to have a productive meeting this 18 afternoon, and to introduce the NRC staff that will be 19 talking to you today.
20 In terms of the format for the meeting, 21 it's really a two-part format. The first part is the 22 NRC is going to give you some brief presentations, 23 some information on the background on the NRC review 24 process for a license application such as this.
25
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And we're going to go to the second part 1
of the meeting, which is an opportunity for the NRC to 2
listen to your
- advice, your
- comments, your 3
recommendations on what the NRC should look at when 4
it's preparing its Environmental Impact Statement, 5
when it's preforming its environmental review.
6 Now, the NRC staff is going to tell you 7
that they're also accepting written comments on these 8
issues, but whatever you say today will carry the same 9
weight as any written comments that you may wish to 10 submit, and of course you can talk today and then 11 submit a written comment; all of that is welcome and 12 fine.
13 When the NRC presentations are done, we're 14 going to have some time for a few questions about 15 those presentations, to just make sure that all of the 16 information -- this process is clear to all of you, 17 and I would just ask you to just hold your questions 18 until both of the NRC presenters are done with their 19 talks, and then we'll go for questions.
20 If we don't have time to get to all of 21 your questions before we need to move on to the 22 comment part of the meeting, the NRC staff will be 23 here after the meeting to talk with you in more detail 24 about any questions that you might have.
25
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Ground rules are very simple. When we get 1
to the question period, just signal me, and I'll bring 2
you this cordless microphone, and if you could just 3
introduce yourself to us and ask your question. and 4
then we'll go to the NRC staff for answers.
5 Second ground rule: I would ask that only 6
one person at a time speak, most importantly so that 7
we can give our full attention to whomever has the 8
floor at the moment, but also we're transcribing the 9
meeting, and Brenda Thompson is our stenographer, our 10 court reporter today, and that will be the NRC's 11 record of the meeting, and it also will be your record 12 of the meeting.
13 And if we follow the one-person-at-a-time 14 ground rule, Brenda will be able to get what I call a 15 clean transcript; she'll know who is speaking at a 16 particular moment and identify them like that in the 17 transcript.
18 I would also ask you to be brief in your 19 comments so that we can make sure that we get to 20 everyone today. I don't think we're going to have any 21 time problems, but I always like to make people aware 22 of the need to be brief.
23 Usually we have a five-minute ground rule 24 on presentations, and then people can expand in their 25
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written comments, but obviously we have a little 1
leeway today on that five-minute ground rule.
2 And the NRC staff is here today to 3
carefully listen to any comments that you make, and 4
they're not going to be talking to you about your 5
comments. We're going to be listening to the 6
comments, but the NRC staff is going to carefully 7
consider those comments, and they'll issue what's 8
called a scoping report, and we'll tell you a little 9
more about that.
10 And finally I would just ask all of you to 11 show courtesy to each other today. You may hear 12 opinions today that differ from your own, and I would 13 just ask you to respect the person who is giving that 14 opinion.
15 And with that, let me introduce our two 16 speakers. First we're going to hear from Pat Milano, 17 and Pat is the senior project manager for the safety 18 review on the Watts Bar 2 license application, and 19 he's going to give you an overview of the entire NRC 20 review process and, importantly, some history on this 21 particular application.
22 And then we're going to go to the heart of 23 the topic today, and we're going to Dennis Beissel, 24 who is the environmental project manager on this 25
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particular license application, and Dennis is going to 1
go into some more detail on the environmental review 2
process.
3 So we would all thank you for coming out 4
to be with us today to help us with this important 5
decision, and with that, I'm just going to go directly 6
to Pat, then we'll go to Dennis, and then we'll go on 7
to you for questions. Thank you.
8 MR. MILANO: Thank you, Chip.
9 Again, as Chip mentioned, my name is 10 Patrick Milano. I'm from the NRC Headquarters office 11 in Rockville, Maryland, and I'm the project manager 12 assigned to the review of the operating license 13 application within the Office of Nuclear Regulation.
14 A little background for you: Under the 15 Atomic Energy Act and the Energy Reorganization Acts, 16 regulations were formulated to provide for the 17 licensing of new reactors. More specifically, the 18 NRC's review of the Watts Bar Nuclear Plant Unit 2 19 will be governed by the provisions of Part 50 of Title 20 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations, 10 CFR 50.
21 Again, that's unlike what you're seeing if 22 you're aware of the New Reactor Program that's 23 being -- where some of the new plants are going under 24 Part 52. Watts Bar is going to remain under the Part 25
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50 regulations.
1 An application for operating license is 2
required to submit information that describes the 3
facility, presents the design basis and the limits of 4
its operation and presents a safety analysis of the 5
structure, systems, and components and the facility as 6
a whole.
7 This is commonly referred to as the safety 8
portion of the review, which is what I and our 9
organization, and NRR is primarily responsible for.
10 In addition, an application for a facility 11 whose construction and operation may have a
12 significant impact on the environment is also required 13 to be accompanied by an environmental report under 14 Subpart A of Part 51, 10 CFR Part 51.
15 The NRC recognizes a continuing obligation 16 to conduct its licensing and regulatory functions in a 17 manner which is both receptive to the environmental 18 concerns and is consistent with its responsibility as 19 an independent regulatory agency for protecting the 20 radiological health and safety of the public.
21 Today we're here as part of the process 22 for the review of the environmental report for Watts 23 Bar Unit 2. In this regard, the purpose of this 24 meeting, as you see up on the slide, is to establish 25
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an early and open process for determining the scope of 1
the issues to be addressed and then, more so, for 2
identifying the significant environmental issues 3
related to the operation of Watts Bar Unit 2.
4 I'd like to give you a little bit of 5
history of the licensing of Watts Bar 2. The National 6
Environmental Policy Act of 1969, commonly referred to 7
as NEPA, directs that all agencies of federal 8
government comply with NEPA procedures, except where 9
they're inconsistent with other regulatory 10 requirements.
11 Under NRC's regulations, an applicant such 12 as TVA desiring to construct or operate a nuclear 13 plant, must submit an environmental review for review 14 by the NRC staff. However, as a federal agency 15 itself, the Tennessee Valley Authority is also 16 required to comply with NEPA procedures.
17 Therefore, in 1972, TVA submitted its 18 Environmental Impact Statement to support its proposed 19 construction of Watts Bar Units 1 and 2. The NRC 20 reviewed this, along with other facility design 21 information when it issued the construction permits 22 for both units in early 1973, specifically January 23 1973.
24 TVA supplemented its Environmental Impact 25
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Statement in 1976, along with its application for 1
operating licenses for both units. After review, NRC 2
prepared an environmental statement detailing its 3
review of the environmental effects of the operation 4
of the plant.
5 As you are aware, TVA halted construction 6
of Watts Bar in the mid 1980s due to a series of 7
construction and management difficulties and 8
deficiencies within its organization, and after 9
construction resumed in the early '90s and Watts Bar 10 Unit 1 was nearing completion, NRC supplemented the 11 environmental review, in 1995, for Watts Bar Unit 1, 12 and the plant received a license to operate later on 13 in that year, in November of '95.
14 During this period Unit 2 remained in 15 what's called a deferred plant status. Then in August 16 of 2007, TVA notified the NRC that it planned to 17 reactivate construction of Watts Bar Unit 2 and to 18 complete the licensing of that unit.
19 To support this effort, TVA supplemented 20 its Environmental Impact Statement for Unit 2 in July 21 of 2008 and updated its overall license application 22 March of this year.
23 As some of you are aware, the NRC has held 24 two meetings for the public, in December -- the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 10 previous December, that try to explain and address for 1
the public the process that the NRC was going to take 2
in reviewing the operating license application for 3
Watts Bar 2. However, I'm going to highlight some of 4
the major aspects of this process.
5 As I mentioned to begin with, there are 6
several facets of the review of any operating license 7
application. The NRC's safety findings are documented 8
in a safety evaluation report, and also there are some 9
several other reports that are also prepared, dealing 10 with such aspects as environmental, which we're here 11 today to discuss, as well as security and emergency 12 preparedness.
13 After these reviews are completed, the 14 staff will present its findings to the Commission's 15 independent advisory committee, called the Advisory 16 Committee on Reactor Safety, or you may also hear the 17 acronym ACRS.
18 ACRS provides its recommendation about whether the 19 plant should be given an operating license directly to 20 the commissioners, rather than to the staff itself.
21 During the same time period, the NRC will 22 be inspecting the construction of the facility to 23 determine if it's been constructed in accordance with 24 the approved design requirements and industry codes 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 Lastly, if the Commission determines that 2
the plant should be given an operating license, it 3
will authorize the director of the Office of Nuclear 4
Reactor Regulation to issue that license.
5 And that pretty much is my presentation 6
with regard to the safety portion of the review. With 7
that, I'm going to turn it over to Dennis Beissel, who 8
will provide you with an understanding of what's going 9
to transpire on the environmental side.
10 MR. BEISSEL: Thank you.
11 My name is Dennis Beissel; I'm a project 12 manager and a hydrologist with the Nuclear Regulatory 13 Commission in Headquarters in Rockville.
14 As Pat said, the NRC's evaluation or 15 environmental review is governed by NEPA, and NEPA 16 requires that all federal agencies follow a systematic 17 approach in evaluating potential environmental impacts 18 associated with certain actions. And we at the NRC 19 consider the environmental impacts of the proposed 20 action, and in this case it is issuing or not issuing 21 an operating license.
22 The process is specifically structured to 23 involve public participation, which is -- and obtain 24 public comment, and this meeting is a very large part 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 12 of that.
1 While we prepare an Environmental Impact 2
Statement, we're going to consider, analyze, and 3
evaluate the impacts of issuing the license. During 4
the review we look for and evaluate any new and 5
significant information that might call into question 6
the conclusions that were previously reached in the 7
1978 FES or EIS that we produced. In addition, we'll 8
search for new issues that may not have been addressed 9
in the document of 20 years ago.
10 The purpose of an EIS -- among all these 11 bullets, the important part is -- all being important, 12 but that it provides full and fair discussion and 13 disclosure of environmental impacts. This is not a 14 regulatory requirement document; it's a disclosure 15 document. We are going to evaluate and disclose 16 environmental conditions, even though we don't 17 actually as an agency regulate those conditions; it's 18 done by state agencies or other federal agencies.
19 While we evaluate the impacts and the 20 resources, we're going to consider these resources, 21 which are aquatic and terrestrial ecology; the 22 hydrology will be both groundwater and surface water 23 hydrology. We have cultural resources, human health, 24 land use, and any subcategories of these that may be 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 13 relevant to the site.
1 For our information gathering, we'll use 2
information that was in the environmental report 3
submitted by TVA as part of their license application.
4 We're going -- actually this week we're conducting an 5
environmental audit of the site, where we tour the 6
facility; we observe plant systems and evaluate the 7
interaction of plant operations with the environment.
8 We talk to plant personnel and review 9
specific documentation of plant operations. We will 10 speak to and consult with federal, state, and local 11 officials, permitting authorities, and social 12 services. We've already submitted letters and have 13 had phone calls with them and invited them to come and 14 talk to us this week or any other week during the 15 comment period, if they wish.
16 We'll consider the comments received 17 during the public scoping period in this meeting and 18 the scoping period that carries on past this meeting, 19 and all of this information forms the basis of our 20 preliminary conclusions which will be presented in a 21 Draft Environmental Impact Statement.
22 Just a little bit of background, again, to 23 repeat some things: The NRC issued the Final 24 Environmental Statement in 1978. What we're going to 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 14 produce now is a draft, which is an Environmental 1
Impact Statement, but it serves as a supplemental to 2
the Final Environmental Statement.
3 The regulatory requirements that govern 4
what we do is found in 10 CFR Part 51. And our staff 5
guidance is found in the NUREG-1555, which describes 6
for us what we should look at, and it's in a very 7
detailed guidance. But it's nonprescriptive; it is a 8
guidance document.
9 The process -- right now we're in the 10 first bullets here during environmental scoping and 11 this public meeting. We're going to then perform our 12 review and evaluation of the information, and we'll 13 produce a Draft Environmental Impact Statement, and at 14 that time -- I don't have the schedule in front of me, 15 but we'll have another meeting or two meetings similar 16 to these meetings today, where we'll present our 17 results, and then we invite comments and questions on 18 them at that time.
19 Then after all the review and evaluation 20 of the draft, then a Final Environmental Statement is 21 published by the NRC.
22 As far as scoping comments for 23 environmental, I think there were copies of these in 24 the back, so if you don't want to have to try to write 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 15 down the address -- and the e-mail's kind of a 1
mouthful, so I'm not going to read it, but these are 2
available in the back so you can copy them from there.
3 And that's really all I had for a summary.
4 I didn't want to get into too much detail. Do we go 5
to questions now?
6 MR. CAMERON: Yes. Let me just --
7 MR. BEISSEL: Go ahead.
8 MR. CAMERON: Let me just say that Pat and 9
Dennis are our two speakers today, but we also have 10 many others here from the NRC staff from our Office of 11 General Counsel, our Office of Public Affairs, our 12 resident inspectors, so that we can make sure that we 13 answer your questions, but also so that they're here 14 to talk to you after the meeting about anything that 15 you might have.
16 And I don't know if our handouts have them 17 on, but Dennis and Pat are fully available through 18 phone and e-mail to all of you if you have any 19 questions or concerns, because these meetings are just 20 one dot in time, and we'd like to maintain some 21 continuity with you throughout this process.
22 But thank you, Pat; thank you, Dennis.
23 Are there questions about the NRC process 24 that's going on now that we can answer for you?
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 16 Yes. And just please introduce yourself 1
to us, sir.
2 DR. McCLUNEY: Yes. I'm Dr. Ross 3
McCluney, and I'll be speaking a little bit later. I 4
just had one question; let me find it.
5 MR. CAMERON: Sure.
6 DR. McCLUNEY: In the process of the 7
Environmental Impact Statements -- here it is. The 8
history of license applications: I noticed the NRC 9
supplement to the Environmental Impact Statement, 10 April 1995 was the date, but in the more recent one, 11 in July, it referred back to that statement with a 12 date of December
- 1995, with reference to the 13 alternatives.
14 It didn't provide alternatives that I was 15 interested in seeing, and the current one referred 16 back to that one, and I didn't -- I was confused 17 whether it's the April one or the December one.
18 MR.
CAMERON:
Can we provide some 19 clarification on whether there was a separate December 20 1995 document on alternatives? Do we have any 21 information on that? And we have to get you on the 22 transcript, so that we'll need to have you use the 23 microphone.
24 MR. BEISSEL: Yes. I'm not sure the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 17 alternatives -- the 1995 document was for the -- it 1
was a supplement to the Final Environmental Statement 2
for the cooling system. And I don't think it had 3
alternatives to, you know, power generation or 4
anything; it wasn't that kind of an alternative 5
discussion.
6 MR. CAMERON: So there was an April '95 7
Environmental Impact Statement, and then a few months 8
later we issued something that discussed the cooling 9
aspects.
10 VOICE: Yes.
11 MR. CAMERON: Is that correct?
12 MR. BEISSEL: I think there was one 13 document in '95 that was published. I don't know -- I 14 wasn't there then; I don't know when the draft was 15 issued, but I know the final date is in -- is from 16 1995.
17 MR. CAMERON: And I think obviously the 18 doctor is asking to make sure that he has complete 19 information from the past. Is there anything else 20 that we can offer on this, Pat?
21 MR. MILANO: Well, first of all, those 22 are -- those supplements in 1995 were only for Unit 1; 23 they were not for Unit 2. The April '95 supplement --
24 there were some other documents of lesser nature that 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 18 I did not include in the list, and those are all 1
referred to in the record and stuff.
2 If you do need some help with other 3
documents that form up the environmental report, I can 4
try to get that to you.
5 MR. CAMERON: Okay. And I just want to 6
make sure that -- I don't want to beat this to death, 7
but the 1995 was Unit 1.
8 MR. MILANO: That is correct.
9 MR. CAMERON: And Dr. McCluney, I think it 10 is, talked about this July document referring back to 11 something in December 1995? Is that what you're 12 saying?
13 And was the December 1995 -- we don't know 14 what you're specifically referring to, but maybe after 15 the meeting we can try to clear up all those 16 documents, to make sure that you know exactly --
17 DR. McCLUNEY: I'll mention it in my 18 testimony.
19 MR. CAMERON: All right. Thank you.
20 Other questions on any of the process 21 issues?
22 Yes. And Sandy, could you just introduce 23 yourself.
24 MS. KURTZ: I'm Sandy Kurtz. I just had a 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 19 question for Mr. Milano regarding your summary on the 1
safety reports. I was wondering if the safety 2
evaluation report was delivered to the Advisory 3
Committee on Reactor Safety, who you said reported 4
directly to the Commission and not to the staff.
5 So is the safety evaluation report done by 6
the staff? Do they give it to the advisory committee?
7 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Pat, let's get you on 8
the record here.
9 MR. MILANO: The safety evaluation report 10 is provided to the Advisory Committee for Reactor 11 Safety when -- understand, too, that it's not just a 12 single document. As you'll see, there was the 13 original safety evaluation report that was done for 14 both Watts Bar Units 1 and 2, and that was 15 supplemented 20 times and ultimately culminated in the 16 licensing of Watts Bar Unit 1.
17 We have -- in February of this year we 18 supplemented it for Watts Bar Unit 2, basically to lay 19 out the framework -- it wasn't predominantly there to 20 reflect any safety reviews; what it was done for was 21 to give everybody the starting point for where the NRC 22 is picking up its review of Watts Bar Unit 2, and that 23 was supplement 21, and there'll be subsequent 24 supplements as the NRC reviews its -- the operating 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 20 license application for Unit 2.
1 Now, understand, too, that there were 2
other -- safety evaluation report is a term for our 3
reporting system, and the environmental side also --
4 you know, there'll be other reports that are listed as 5
safety evaluation report, but the one that we're 6
talking about, NUREG-0498 and its supplements, are the 7
ones that handle just the safety reviews of the design 8
and operation of the facility.
9 MR. CAMERON: And just to add on a little 10 bit for Sandy and others on this, Pat, the safety 11 evaluation report will be available to the public, and 12 that's still being performed and, thirdly, can you 13 just tell people a little bit about the request-for-14 additional-information process so that they know what 15 to expect along those lines?
16 MR. MILANO: What happens along the way is 17 that currently the NRC is reviewing the final safety 18 analysis report that TVA prepares to detail its design 19 and operation of Watts Bar Unit 2.
20 And you'll see in there that they -- as 21 they complete designs and make changes to what was 22 previously described in earlier versions, they amend 23 the FSAR, final safety analysis report.
24 And indeed they have done that. We 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 21 have -- so far we have gotten amendments 93 and 94, 1
which came in in April and August of this year, that 2
provided a certain amount of design material to 3
support some sections of the FSAR.
4 Those are currently under staff review.
5 If the staff does not -- feels that they don't have 6
enough information to make a finding in those areas, 7
we put out what's commonly referred to as an RAI, a 8
request for additional information.
9 All those type of documents are all made 10 publicly available; they're all in our -- both in our 11 document control system -- it's called ADAMS -- and 12 also the more significant documents we put on our 13 agency website for Watts Bar Unit 2.
14 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Pat.
15 Dennis, RAI, same process followed on the 16 environmental review?
17 MR. BEISSEL: Yes. A very similar 18 process. Primarily we request additional information 19 that we couldn't find during our site audit or site 20 visit or that hasn't been published and not publicly 21 available or it's not already in the record.
22 And then we submit a formal request. The 23 applicant responds and gives us the information we 24 require to finish our evaluation. Then all the -- the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 22 basis of our evaluation, then, is all docket -- all 1
the information we get from them is put on the docket, 2
so it's publicly available.
3 MR. CAMERON: Great. Thank you, Dennis.
4 Does that answer your question, Sandy?
5 Anybody else have a question?
6 (Pause.)
7 MR. CAMERON: And, Lou, just introduce 8
yourself.
9 MR. ZELLER: Thank you. My name is Louis 10 Zeller. I'm with the Blue Ridge Environmental Defense 11 League.
12 I have a question about the environmental 13 side. Can you tell me if TVA has submitted its post-14 construction environmental report, as required under 15 10 CFR 51.53?
16 MR.
CAMERON:
So post-construction 17 environmental report from TVA. Do we have an answer 18 on whether that's been -- whether that's applicable in 19 this situation or --
20 MR. BEISSEL: Well, I believe they're 21 still undergoing -- they're still doing construction, 22 so we're not at post-construction yet, so I -- there 23 is -- I haven't seen that report; I don't think it's 24 due yet.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 23 I don't know the -- I don't have the 1
regulation memorized as to how many days or months or 2
it's due after the end of construction, but we could 3
find out.
4 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Let's see if we can 5
get that information. But I guess the bottom line is 6
since construction is still ongoing, that that 7
particular document has not been developed yet.
8 Okay. Anybody else?
9 (No response.)
10 MR. CAMERON: All right. And as I said, 11 the staff will be here after the meeting to answer 12 anything else you might have.
13 We'll go to the part of the meeting where 14 we're going to listen to all of you, and our first two 15 speakers are Shane Burris and then Louis -- Lou 16 Zeller.
17 And, Shane, would you like to come up here 18 and give us your comments.
19 MR. BURRIS: Thank you all. I'm Shane 20 Burris; I'm director of Monroe County Economic 21 Development, and I'm here representing the Monroe 22 County mayor, Allan Watson. His apologies; he 23 couldn't be here.
24 We fully support licensing Watts Bar 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 24 Number 2. Our unemployment rate in Monroe County 1
right now is over 16 percent, so we would like to see 2
jobs from that plant as it is being constructed and 3
then once it's completed.
4 You know, the electric power that it will 5
generate is very necessary. There's something that 6
most people in this room may not know. They're going 7
to build a company, Beikler, in Cleveland, Tennessee, 8
that will build solar panels; they will also make 9
semiconductors, but mostly solar panels. That build-10 out, that plant will require a quarter to a third of a 11 nuclear power plant to run its full operation.
12 From my understanding, at the presentation 13 that I went to, TVA's engineers are looking at, on 14 their grid, to supply it from two nuclear power 15 plants: one from Sequoyah and one from Watts Bar, to 16 my understanding.
17 And isn't that ironic, to build solar 18 panels, that you need so much power. So we fully 19 support this licensing; we think the electricity is 20 necessary. I know there's some people in the room 21 that probably don't think so, but as an economic 22 developer in the state of Tennessee, most economic 23 developers know that the United States and the state 24 of Tennessee's manufacturing base runs on cheap power.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 25 And if your cap and trade bill passes in 1
Congress, the electric bill will go up about 300 2
percent, and also that will end manufacturing in this 3
country as we know it, and we will only be one mass 4
distribution center.
5 So I fully support, and the Monroe County 6
mayor does, too -- we support the jobs, we support the 7
electric power that we feel is necessary for this 8
country and for the benefit of Monroe County and its 9
citizens.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much, Shane.
12 And now we're going to hear from Lou 13 Zeller, and then we'll go to Dr. McCluney and William 14 Reynolds.
15 MR. ZELLER: Thank you. My name is Lou 16 Zeller, and I'm the science director with the Blue 17 Ridge Environmental Defense League, which was founded 18 in 1984 on the crest of the Blue Ridge and has been 19 operating in Tennessee since 1992. It's done a 20 variety of projects.
21 I will have written comments to submit 22 today, but I just wanted to hit on the highlights of 23 perhaps one of the most important issues which relates 24 to public health and general safety issues. That 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 26 would be the fact that Watts Bar Unit 2, as its sister 1
reactor, Number 1, would utilize an ice-condenser 2
containment structure -- many people have referred to 3
this as an eggshell-type containment -- in order to 4
reduce costs of construction, concrete and steel, in 5
the construction of the containment vessel, that large 6
domed structure.
7 Ice-condenser units employ baskets of ice.
8 During an event inside of a nuclear reactor, excess 9
heat and pressure are created. Ice-condenser reactors 10 are designed to reduce that heat and pressure by using 11 baskets of ice.
12 There are relatively few of these reactors 13 in operation, and they are fraught with fundamental 14 engineering flaws and also real-world difficulties in 15 keeping baskets of ice free, operating over a period 16 of decades, which they are required to do.
17 The ice-condenser system should not be 18 constructed in the 21st century; it should not have 19 been constructed at all.
20 The cost-cutting measures designed to make 21 construction cheaper result in some of the most 22 dangerous reactors on the planet. A Sandia study 23 which is memorialized in Nuclear Regulatory's own 24 guidance documents, NUREG/CR-6427, in April 2000, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 27 states that ice-condenser plants are at least two 1
orders of magnitude more vulnerable to early 2
containment failure than other types of pressurized 3
water reactors. Two orders of magnitude: ten times 4
ten, 100 times more vulnerable to a catastrophic 5
disaster.
6 Hydrogen buildup during an event inside of 7
a nuclear reactor is one of the reasons for this 8
vulnerability. Measures over the years, which have 9
been added to or retrofitted to existing ice-condenser 10 reactors have addressed part of the problem. Buildup 11 of hydrogen is why the pressure gets so high and can 12 cause a rupture in the containment structure.
13 Backfitting of hydrogen igniters over the 14 years have not addressed the full problem. Ice-15 condenser reactors are still vulnerable to hydrogen 16 ignition during a reactor event which would otherwise 17 be contained inside a
more robust containment 18 structure.
19 This spells danger to people in Rhea 20 County, eastern Tennessee, if and when one of these 21 reactors was to be breached. Combined with the 22 fundamental problems of nuclear power, this presents 23 an unacceptable risk in this case.
24 For example, "the most complete and recent 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 28 probabilistic risk assessment suggests core melt 1
frequencies in the range of 1 in 1000 per reactor year 2
to 1 in 10,000 per reactor. A typical value is 3 in 3
10,000." I'm reading from David Lochbaum's monograph 4
which quotes a Nuclear Regulatory Commission statement 5
to US Congress, and that's what I am citing here.
6 This is the NRC to the Congress: "Were this the 7
industry average, then in a population of 100 8
reactors," which we have today, "over a period of 20 9
years, the crude cumulative probability of a severe 10 reactor accident would be 45 percent."
11 That is for all reactors
- combined, 12 including the more robust designs. The ice-condenser 13 reactor can withstand half the pressure of the more 14 robust old designs, not talking about the new AP-1000 15 and other designs which have not yet been built under 16 10 CFR Part 52.
17 This reactor should not be built. Thank 18 you.
19 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Lou.
20 Next we're going to go to Dr. McCluney.
21 Thank you.
22 DR. McCLUNEY: Good afternoon. I have a 23 bachelor's degree in physics from Rhodes College in 24 Memphis, master's degree in physics from UT-Knoxville, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 29 not far from here, PhD in physics from University of 1
Miami.
2 I worked for Eastman Kodak Company, NASA's 3
Goddard Space Flight Center, and for 30 years at the 4
Florida Solar Energy Center. That's a research 5
institute of the University of Central Florida.
6 Following retirement from that 7
organization, I moved to Chattanooga, and I've been a 8
technical consultant since that time.
9 In addition to my general concerns about 10 nuclear power -- I won't list all the concerns and 11 fears; they're in the media. They've been examined 12 quite a bit, and there's a lot of controversy about 13 most of it, but I think the dangers are real; the 14 potential environmental impact in the event of 15 accidental releases of materials, either fuels or 16 waste, are severe and consequential.
17 What we're counting on is the probability, 18 hopefully, of that happening being low, but as the 19 number of these power plants and materials being 20 transported across the country
- increase, the 21 probability may change that something can happen, and 22 if it does, it could spell serious consequences.
23 But I'm also concerned about the high cost 24 and the delayed return on that investment of a nuclear 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 30 power plant. It's required to go through a lot of 1
work like this meeting in preparation, a lot of 2
analysis, and even when you get close to construction, 3
it takes quite a while to get the plant operating and 4
then tested and presumed safe enough to turn it on and 5
finally start generating revenue.
6 Well, in this economic time it's rather 7
risky, and I'm sure -- I believe not a very good idea 8
to invest so much money in something that may not be 9
needed.
10 So my concern is that there are lots of 11 moves afoot to reduce our needs for electricity in the 12 Tennessee Valley and around the country that aren't 13 really addressed in TVA's Environmental Impact 14 Statements, that I've been able to find.
15 In particular, I'll refer to sections 16 relating to alternatives, alternatives to building the 17 plant. And sometimes TVA will put a little bit in 18 about that, in other cases, so I searched the most 19 recent Environmental Impact Statement prior to this 20 meeting, and what I found was a statement that 21 referred back to that 1995 -- December 1995 earlier 22 Environmental Impact Statement for finding something 23 about alternatives.
24 We don't know -- because I couldn't find 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 31 that document -- whether those alternatives were just 1
alternatives to the design of the plant, alternatives 2
to mitigate environment impact, or whether it actually 3
included alternative power sources or other options 4
for reducing the need for the plant in the first 5
place. So I believe TVA is fairly deficient in that 6
area.
7 Even if the 1995 report addresses the 8
subject, a whole lot has happened since then, in 14 9
years. There's been an enormous amount of research, 10 development, and promulgation of energy-efficient 11 technology and renewable energy choices.
12 It doesn't take a particularly astute 13 observer to know about a lot of this. If you watch 14 TV, and especially if you go to the science 15 channels -- Discovery, National Geographic, and these 16 channels -- if you read the paper, read magazines, 17 you'll see about this, because everybody's excited 18 about these relatively pollution-free or somewhat 19 benign alternatives -- energy alternatives.
20 But even I was surprised when I read a 21 book -- it was called Earth: The Sequel, written by 22 Fred Krupp and Miriam Horn. It came out a couple of 23 years ago. It's a remarkable tour through the 24 technological developments, both in energy efficiency 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 32 and in renewable energy, as well as some other energy 1
options.
2 Millions and even billions of private 3
money have been spent to explore, develop and actually 4
commercialize an enormous variety of technologies we 5
still don't know too much about unless you really dig 6
in.
7 A good -- some good searches on the 8
internet will reveal a lot of this technology, a lot 9
more about it, and yet we see nothing about this in 10 TVA's reports.
11 So the question is, Do they fail to 12 include it because they've already decided, years ago, 13 that solar can't work here, or whatever decision they 14 make, and so because they made that decision -- and if 15 we trace it back, we may have to go back to the 16 original -- I fear we have to go back to the original 17 Environmental Impact Statement in 1978.
18 So I glanced through this document to see 19 if I could find a reference to that, and there was 20 nothing there. So I fear that the really viable 21 alternatives in renewable energy and energy efficiency 22 have not been addressed and therefore the decision 23 could be one based on inadequate information that will 24 endanger the public.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 33 The journalist Tom Friedman has also 1
written a book called Hot, Flat, and Crowded that also 2
details the opportunities available to the United 3
States -- it's a very patriotic book -- to get off of 4
foreign oil and dirty coal without
- having, 5
necessarily, to go to nuclear to do it.
6 So the point I'd like to make in response 7
to my enormous sympathy to the economic problems of 8
the area, and the mention of jobs in solid-state and 9
other areas, is that renewable energy is a really 10 labor-intensive operation, so that your intensive 11 worker group that comes in to build the nuclear power 12 plant, usually from outside the region, most of those 13 leave when the plant is built, and a moderately small 14 task force remains.
15 Whereas if you instead focused on 16 attracting some of this new technology development and 17 factories, you could build up this region enormously, 18 building and making environmentally benign technology 19 to provide what electricity is needed.
20 I admit that TVA will need electricity, 21 not necessarily because it expects a growth in 22 demand -- I really don't think because of all this 23 technology is getting out there that the demand will 24 be as high as they think it's going to be; I think the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 34 lower growth in their Environmental Impact Statement, 1
the one that's slightly negative, may be closer to the 2
truth.
3 But even if the demand is lower, that 4
doesn't mean they won't have to build new plants, 5
because hopefully they'll be taking out of operation 6
all those dirty coal plants, and so they'll need to 7
replace some of those, and I admit that.
8 But I'd hate to see it with nuclear, when 9
abundant natural energy is available from the sun and 10 from other sources, outside this region, with long-11 distance transport of energy as well as within this 12 region, and yet TVA is silent on this.
13 So what I urge the Nuclear Regulatory 14 Commission to do is insist that, before they give any 15 permit to this Unit 2, that TVA do a truly 16 comprehensive study of these other alternatives:
17 improved energy efficiency and renewable energy 18 development.
19 In fact, TVA can make money off of this.
20 They can put the solar systems out and lease the 21 rooftops of customers in a whole new mode of power 22 plant production which is called distributed energy.
23 The beauty of distributed energy is 24 they're relatively small; they're distributed over the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 35 region. They're not terror-susceptible, because you 1
want to take out the power in the region? How many 2
rooftops do you have to go and knock out in order to 3
have an event? So distributed power has an inherently 4
higher security factor to it.
5 And the utility can participate; in fact, 6
it already is, in very tiny, little minuscule power 7
programs, where the homeowner pays to put the solar 8
power on their roof, and then the utility pays them a 9
double price for the electricity that's generated.
10 So I think if they could look at that 11 model more, look at these new technologies, including 12 battery storage -- battery storage is amazing; I 13 thought it was the unsolvable problem, because solar 14 power, we know, is intermittent, and therefore we need 15 a way to store electricity or some other form that can 16 be turned into electricity and then produce it where 17 it's needed.
18 TVA has a facility for that near my home 19 in Chattanooga; it's pump storage on the top of a 20 mountain, and then they pull the water down when the 21 need the power at peak periods.
22 So there are options available, and so I 23 urge NRC to insist that TVA do this truly 24 comprehensive study. If they do that, I suspect that 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 36 what TVA will discover is they can withdraw their 1
application for this new plant.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Ross.
4 And now we're going to William Reynolds, 5
and then we're going to go to Representative Jim Cobb.
6 MR.
REYNOLDS:
Also known as Bill 7
Reynolds. I live down the river, so to speak, in 8
Chattanooga, been a citizen there for over 30 years.
9 And by the way, when I filled in my card for the 10 title, I just wrote in "citizen." It occurs to me 11 know that maybe I should have written in "concerned 12 citizen" and added also that one who's been concerned 13 particularly about the impacts on human health -- my 14 health, my family's health, and the future of my 15 children's and grandchildren's health -- for a long 16 time and has taken great interest in studying and 17 learning all about energy production, energy use, and 18 those kind of things, to study all about, as much as I 19 could have.
20 I daresay I've learned a lot of valid 21 lessons in my studies and private individual studies 22 through the years, and I think I just recently, within 23 the past year, less than a year, have learned a most 24 important new lesson that I think a lot of folks, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 37 including TVA itself, probably has learned as a result 1
of the horrible disaster of the Kingston ash spill, 2
not far from here, that you all probably are very well 3
informed with the great disaster, and I'm not going to 4
go into details about it.
5 I bring this up at this time because I 6
think it's a lesson learned that should be known and 7
paid attention to in the practice of producing nuclear 8
power plants and managing nuclear power plants and so 9
on.
10 I want to define a lesson learned that I 11 think we should all apply, particularly to the scoping 12 of building a new nuclear power plant here. And 13 here's my definition:
"Regulations, monitoring 14 inspection regimens, and compliance enforcement must 15 absolutely be maintained and sustained with absolute 16 unwavering consistency in perpetuity, as long as the 17 waste remains."
18 And we -- those who are informed about 19 nuclear power waste products, some of those waste 20 products remain lethal to human life and health for 21 multiple centuries. There must never be a single 22 occurrence of slacking in maintaining and sustaining 23 protection of our supremely precious air, land, and 24 water from exposure to the poisons contained in the 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 38 waste produced by electrical power generation.
1 Nothing akin to the Kingston coal ash 2
spill should ever happen with nuclear power plants, 3
whose waste is even more toxic than coal ash.
4 I hope this less has already been learned 5
among those who manage nuclear power. If not, I want 6
you to start to learn it now. This bears saying in a 7
scoping session for the environmental impact 8
assessment of a new nuclear power plant here, because 9
the most noble and honorable Union of Concerned 10 Scientists, who are not antinuclear, by the way, but 11 they do totally responsible scientific evaluation and 12 assessment of the nuclear power industry and, upon 13 close scrutiny of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's 14 track record and their oversight of nuclear power 15 plant operation, concluded as follows:
16 "Nuclear power is riskier than it should 17 and could be.
The United States has strong 18 regulations on the books, but the Nuclear Regulatory 19 Commission does not enforce them consistently."
20 I agree with the implication in this 21 statement that emphasizes the consistency. TVA has 22 done a lot of good things; we all know that. We 23 appreciate the great service they've done, but -- and 24 it's not all their fault, because the regulations were 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 39 not in place regarding the coal ash spill.
1 Regulations are, according to the UCS, in 2
place for strong management of nuclear power, so 3
consistency is what's needed, unfailing consistency.
4 NRC cannot be given a passing grade on their 5
regulation enforcement for anything less than a 6
perfect 100.
7 One percent slackness on enforcement is a 8
failing grade. Why? -- because of what it can do to 9
human beings and their lives and their health.
10 People's lives and future genetic transmission, by the 11 way, is on the line with radioactive pollution.
12 Necessary ramifications, lesson learned, 13 is the assertion that and Environmental Impact 14 Statement that omits responsible, honest accounting 15 for perpetual vigilance through the eons to come, 16 continuously and consistently, is not worth the paper 17 it's written on.
18 So I'm here encouraging NRC to make sure 19 they get all that covered, all that protection of 20 human health and life in perpetuity, as long as the 21 waste will last.
22 I
see this is quite a
problem to 23 accomplish, in other words, a gargantuan challenge, at 24 the very least. And environmental protection plan 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 40 that could be fail-safe for eons to come would 1
obviously run into costs over much time adding up to 2
multi-trillions of dollars, I would imagine.
3 Part of the gargantuan challenge, then, is 4
creating such a plan that it provides and requires a 5
funding system that will never fail. It will cost 6
lots of dollars. If the funding system fails, the 7
regulation enforcement will not be done, and it will 8
present an unacceptable risk to the public.
9 The Environmental Impact Statement must 10 contain assessment of how these funds will be 11 guaranteed. To me it is obvious those funds will have 12 to come out of the pockets of either the ratepayers 13 who buy the power or the taxpayers who bail out when 14 the funds aren't there, or both, which is the kind of 15 situation we have now, those of us who are ratepayers, 16 in particular, with -- dealing with the cleanup of the 17 toxic ash spill.
18 Environmental Impact Statement must meet 19 all the gargantuan challenges or it will be a failed 20 Environmental Impact Statement. So I sound kind of 21 negative here, but I'm encouraging you to do the job 22 and do it right in these terms.
23 Thank you.
24 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you, Bill.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 41 Let's go to Representative Cobb, and then 1
we're going to go to Mary Mastin and Brian Paddock.
2 MR. COBB: Thank you. Well, I've heard so 3
much already that I really don't know where to start 4
with defending TVA, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 5
their commitment to protect the health and safety of 6
the public.
7 I know that because I have lived with it for decades.
8 A little bit about my background: I am 9
state representative, and I have -- my district is 10 House District 31, and it includes the only two 11 operating nuclear plants in the state of Tennessee.
12 It includes north Hamilton County and Rhea 13 County, so I have Watts Bar and Sequoyah both in my 14 district, but I also have the distinction of having 15 held an SRO, a senior reactor operator license, at 16 Watts Bar Unit 1. I was actually the first senior 17 reactor operator to tie Unit 1 on line.
18 I know that my primary objective when I 19 was a licensed operator in a nuclear plant was to 20 protect the health and safety of the public.
21 Ironically, that is still my number-one goal as a 22 state representative.
23 I heard concerns about the ice condenser, 24 and I heard concerns about what if we run out of 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 42 funds, but -- and I heard concerns about, you know, we 1
need to keep a scorecard that accepts nothing less 2
than 100 percent, and I agree with that.
3 The fact is that the Nuclear Regulatory 4
Commission and Tennessee Valley Authority have a 5
standard that the average person's 100 percent is 6
probably the TVA and NRC's 50 percent.
7 So I think that they go above and beyond 8
the call of duty to make sure that we have safe power.
9 Also, if they run out of money, there are provisions 10 in the technical specifications to shut the plants 11 down and put them in a safe condition so the public is 12 not threatened.
13 That being said, I really admire Mr.
14 Burris for the comments he made about the economic 15 impact this will have on our area, but I can tell you 16 that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission does not have 17 compassion at the level that they're really concerned 18 about jobs.
19 They are concerned about the health and 20 safety of the public, the environmental impact, the 21 physical security of the plants, and I firmly stand 22 behind the continued construction and moving forward 23 with Unit 2, and I'm very proud to be here today. And 24 if you have any questions for me, I'll take them, but 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 43 I'm on my way out the door if you don't.
1 MR. CAMERON: Okay.
2 MR. COBB: Thank you.
3 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Representative.
4 And we're going to go to Mary Mastin.
5 MS. MASTIN: Thank you. I hadn't really 6
planned to speak. I thought I was just driving over 7
here from Cookeville with my husband, but I heard some 8
things and decided I needed to.
9 I am a lawyer; I'm active with the 10 Tennessee chapter of the Sierra Club and the Tennessee 11 Environmental Council, and I have litigated NEPA 12 cases. I also grew up in Chattanooga; I grew up on 13 Lookout Mountain, just above Browns Ferry and around 14 Sequoyah and Watts Bar 1 and 2, and I've got 15 grandchildren whose other grandparents have a house on 16 Chickamauga Lake, where my grandchildren, who are five 17 and eight, swim and fish, although they don't eat the 18 fish; they throw them back in.
19 I am really concerned about the water 20 quality in the Tennessee River, and I think that as 21 TVA goes forward with this Environmental Impact 22 Statement, they are going to be required to take a 23 hard look at the new information on water quality, 24 discharges of heavy
- metals, serious long-term 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 44 consequences from the Kingston coal ash spill.
1 I think this really is new information and 2
is going to require a detailed, comprehensive, hard 3
look. I am very afraid that we are killing the 4
aquatic life in the Tennessee River and that the 5
thermal discharges from Watts Bar 1, Watts Bar 2, then 6
you go down to Nickajack or Sequoyah, and Nickajack, 7
you start up there where Oak Ridge -- there are still 8
sediments with radionuclides -- I don't know the 9
technical language on this, but I know that TDEC and 10 EPA and TVA have been very concerned about the 11 dredging as they are trying to clean up the Kingston 12 coal ash spill and not getting down to the bottom and 13 stirring up all of this really terrible stuff that's 14 there.
15 So you have got a very degraded, fragile 16 river system and aquatic life. You know, we are in 17 one of the most beautiful places on earth -- you know, 18 the Tennessee River valley -- I grew up here; I 19 actually fished I guess in Watts Bar Lake.
20 I was trying to figure out; I was in the 21 6th grade; it was 1958, and my father took us on a 22 fishing trip, and I guess it was at Pete Smith's; I 23 don't know -- he was open; the nuclear plant wasn't 24 going, but we fished in Watts Bar Lake in 1958. My 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 45 grandchildren are fishing now in Chickamauga Lake.
1 Please, as you go forward with the 2
environmental work on this, consider the water quality 3
and the new information -- I mean, not only is 4
there -- are there sediments on the bottom where the 5
Clinch River comes into TVA, coming down from Oak 6
Ridge, there apparently is some other stuff from some 7
old paper mill or lumbering operations; there has been 8
a huge concern about doing that very carefully.
9 I'm working with scientists who have 10 talked to us about the discharges from selenium; you 11 got arsenic and mercury; you got heavy metals; you've 12 got fragile fish; you've got mollusks. You have got a 13 whole downstream river system and people who are 14 dependent on your doing this with a great amount of 15 care.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much, Mary.
18 And we're going to go next to Brian 19 Paddock.
20 MR. PADDOCK: I'm Brian Paddock. I am a 21 sort of retired lawyer. I'm here today for the 22 Tennessee Chapter of the Sierra Club, and I start from 23 the national policy of the Sierra Club, which is that 24 nuclear power plants should not be expanded as a 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 46 source of energy in this country until we've solved 1
the waste-disposal problem.
2 And the situation, as I understand it, in 3
the environmental assessment that's being done right 4
now is that indefinite on-site retention of spent fuel 5
is proposed.
6 So I hope you folks locally are prepared 7
to take care of this stuff for at least a quarter of a 8
million years, because with respect to spent fuel, 9
it's pretty clear that Yucca Mountain is dead. I'm 10 not sure exactly the state of the post mortem and 11 rites, but it appears that the federal government is 12 not going to invest more in the development of that 13 site, and no other site has as yet been suggested even 14 as a possible target.
15 In fact, the most recent geologic reports 16 that I happen to come across suggested that the best 17
- possible, most geologically stable for the 18 multimillions of years that were required are probably 19 here on the East Coast, so the next nuclear waste 20 repository you may see from the generation of power 21 might here be east of the Mississippi. It comes from 22 having some of the oldest mountains on the North 23 American continent, and the most stable.
24 But TVA, of course, has no right, even if 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 47 Yucca Mountain were to open, to send the waste from 1
Watts Bar 2, as I understand it, to that repository, 2
even if it were to open, and it simply has, as far as 3
I can see, no real plan other than just keep stacking 4
it up locally.
5 The second thing is basically the -- and 6
this goes to the question of whether or not a license 7
should be granted at all under NEPA standards, but 8
also to the environment assessment, is options and 9
alternatives, as Dr. McCluney addressed.
10 Basically you have a situation where, 11 according to the reports to the Tennessee Valley board 12 of directors, power production and sales have dropped 13 approximately 9 percent during the current economic 14 downturn, the end of which one can debate if it's 15 begun to happen, let alone any true date for that.
16 In the past TVA, in its power projection 17 demands, including those I assume that were used when 18 the board decided to go ahead and restart construction 19 on Watts Bar Unit 2, was that there would be an annual 20 2 percent increase in demand.
21 That in fact hasn't happened; the reverse 22 has happened. And if in fact we were to have 23 effective conservation and efficiency programs, it 24 would never happen. We would go into a flat or 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 48 declining demand usage, and we would have reduced 1
energy intensity on a per capita basis in the TVA 2
service area.
3 But one of the things I think TVA should 4
be held to respond to in its environmental assessment 5
is how poor its energy efficiency and conservation 6
programs are. And I say that with respect to the 7
staff who I've sat with a number of times and 8
discussed with them the activities that they're 9
rolling out, including the home energy audits and 10 retrofits and so forth, and with respect to the State 11 of Tennessee, which is going to I think not only get 12 on board with solar generation but is going to join 13 the national effort to invigorate the purchase of 14 Energy Star appliances.
15 Unfortunately, TVA, in its approach to 16 energy efficiency and conservation, has made a number 17 of missteps. If you'll remember the strategic plan, 18 the first thing it did was to fail to have a target 19 even for efficiency and conservation.
20 After a good deal of public debate and 21 lobbying, it put in, I believe, a 1400-megawatt 22 cumulative demand reduction target, and as it has 23 carried that out, by limiting its instructions to its 24 consultants, the reports of which have not been 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 49 released to the public on energy efficiency and 1
conservation and the limited results that have 2
probably come if you tell them only to look at a very 3
narrow slice of the issue, is that you now have 4
programs that really go to peak shaving only.
5 There has been no effort really to engage 6
with reducing baseload demand, and clearly the Watts 7
Bar 2 plant is about baseload demand, not just about 8
peaks. And it seems to me that as part of the 9
environmental assessment, TVA should be made to 10 explain why it does not expect the baseload demand to 11 continue to decline as efficiency and conservation 12 roll out, and why it should not have efficiency and 13 conservation that reduces baseload demand to the 14 extent that this plant, with its outdated technology, 15 is no longer required.
16 The second point in the scope of the 17 environmental assessment is that there's an 18 interaction here, because the State of Tennessee has 19 just released the draft NPDES, National Pollution 20 Discharge Elimination System, permit for "the Watts 21 Bar nuclear plant."
22 That seems to be talking just about Unit 23 1, but in fact the way TDEC has written the draft 24 permit, it's not clear if you could turn the switch 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 50 on Watts Bar 2 if it were ready and use that same 1
permit.
2 And there are a number of defects and 3
concerns specifically with that permit. We're going 4
to talking with TDEC about this, and the time for 5
public comment has been extended, so that permit is 6
probably not going to be coming down the road until 7
early next year, at the best, but here are some of the 8
difficulties:
9 And we're assuming -- and I think TVA 10 asserts this in their comments on the NPDES -- that 11 the phase 2 regulations don't apply here; that the 12 content of this permit under Section 316 is remitted 13 to TDEC in terms of its best professional judgment.
14 That could change if EPA puts the phase 2 regulations 15 back into effect following the most recent Supreme 16 Court decision.
17 But right now it's up to TDEC, and there 18 are limitations in both the Clean Water Act and in the 19 state regulations. One of the main problems is that 20 most of the environmental information that TVA brought 21 to TDEC for the renewal and extension of the NPDES for 22 the nuclear plant basically was ten and twelve years 23 old.
24 And the entrainment information in terms 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 51 of aquatic species going into the plant and being 1
caught in the cooling water system and cooked as they 2
pass through, including fish eggs and fish larvae, has 3
not been re-examined.
4 TVA asserted in 1966 and '67 that only 5
one-tenth of 1 percent would happen, but when you 6
actually look at the underlying study, you find that 7
17 percent of these species passing the intake area 8
were being sucked in and essentially cooked.
9 So that information needs to be brought up 10 to date; it needs to be accurate, and it needs to be 11 accurate not just for the TDEC but for the purposes of 12 the NRC's scope of study for the Environmental Impact 13 Statement.
14 There are a number of other things.
15 There's a whole lot of assumptions about what's a 16 normal condition in the river and what's a normal 17 year, and I think if you've noticed, the last decade 18 we've seen increasing changes, perhaps due to climate 19 change, where the definition of what's normal needs to 20 be re-examined.
21 The appropriateness of the measurements 22 for fish monitoring for the supplemental cooling water 23 system needs to be re-examined, and I will send the 24 formal written comments that we're preparing for TDEC 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 52 for inclusion in this record so that you will have 1
this.
2 There is, we think right now, a clear 3
failure of TVA with respect to the NPDES, and we think 4
if they were held to this in the EIS for the 5
additional thermal impacts from Watts Bar 2, that they 6
simply have not been able to show that they won't 7
violate the water quality criteria.
8 They don't provide data on the drift 9
community, the spacial or temporal distribution of the 10 plankton in the mixing zones. The mixing zones, by 11 the way, according to the diagram, as I read it -- and 12 I admittedly am no expert on this -- seem to be 13 substantially larger.
14 And by the way, the initial mixing zone in 15 the renewed permit that's proposed actually goes 16 border to border in the river. There is no way for 17 aquatic life to go down the river without being in 18 either what essentially is a dead zone immediately 19 next to the discharges or on the cooler but active 20 side of the river where they would have impacts.
21 There are a lot of questions with respect 22 to the mortality of mussels downstream, even though 23 TVA has spent a good deal of effort over the years 24 relocating mussels. I'm not sure when we started 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 53 rebuilding natural populations in different places in 1
order to allow this kind of project to go forward, but 2
it seems to me that the impact on mussels and the 3
impact of mussel relocation needs to be documented 4
currently.
5 As was mentioned earlier, you now have 6
operating six nuclear plants plus one thermal plant on 7
the same river system, and you're now about to add a 8
seventh, and the cumulative impacts of this amount of 9
cooling water, cooling water loss from evaporation, 10 thermal -- cumulative thermal effects and so forth, 11 needs to be looked at.
12 TVA has already experienced the situation 13
- where, during summer
- peaks, it had to derate 14 downstream nuclear plants. Building another one 15 toward the top of the river system, when it simply, as 16 a consequence of the thermal discharge, will then have 17 to shut down the plants lower on the river system 18 during the hottest times of the peak loads, is not 19 going to make any sense at all.
20 So TVA may have run out of running room in 21 terms of thermal discharges. Let's identify that now 22 before we go ahead and license this plant. In fact, 23 let's make sure that we do it in such a way that those 24 of us who are ratepayers don't wind up for another 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 54 white elephant that's never licensed to operate.
1 I think that the environmental impact 2
assessment needs to look at the effects of an equal-3 dollar investment in renewable energy. Nuclear is 4
extremely expensive. We're talking about $7 billion 5
for these plants, $8 billion, and it seems to me that 6
that kind of money, put into efficiency, conservation, 7
and renewables, might in fact go a long way to meeting 8
what would be the reduced loads that you would have 9
with good efficiency and conservation programs.
10 Finally, I would make a couple of other 11 notes. As noted also, the Watts Bar Lake area already 12 is highly polluted, particularly at the junction with 13 the Clinch River and is already a designated Superfund 14 site.
15 And I have not had a chance to review the 16 documents, but it's not clear to me that the -- what 17 happened -- if there's any mobilization of those 18 upstream legacy sediments from that Superfund site and 19 moving down into the cooling-water intakes for this 20 plant.
21 The same thing is true with respect to the 22 coal ash spill, because we've already seen the coal 23 ash migrate during high-water events. They now 24 they're going to get it out of there by -- worst of it 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 55 out of there by next year, but they also say there 1
won't even be the phase 2's plan for getting some of 2
the rest of it cleaned up until next year.
3 To the extent that those heavy metals are 4
in solution, are in compounds and can travel freely 5
with the flow of the river, you essentially have a 6
different condition in the river at the point that you 7
hit the cooling-water intakes, and we're not sure that 8
the environmental assessment at this point has 9
recognized that condition and has looked at the 10 consequences of having heavy metals in solution in 11 larger proportions at the point of intake and 12 discharge from the cooling water.
13 TVA overall has a very mixed and, I think, 14 unbalanced, poor environmental record, and I would 15 invite the Commission to look at the inspector 16 general's report on Kingston, which found a culture in 17 TVA of dispersed responsibility, lack of 18 accountability, lack of internal communication -- it 19 was always somebody else's job.
20 And you cannot really think that you're 21 going to have a safe 40- to 60-year operation of a 22 nuclear plant in a culture where plant operations 23 suffer from those same defects.
24 Now, that was respect to a fossil plant, 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 56 where, if something goes wrong, ordinarily you think 1
it's not going to be a big deal. Of course, that was 2
a miscalculation, because when you lose 5 million tons 3
of coal ash, it is a big deal. In fact, it's probably 4
one of the biggest environmental disasters on the 5
North American continent in our lifetimes.
6 But please do look at the inspector 7
general's report on the culture in TVA and decide what 8
you have to do in terms of building that into the 9
evaluation of environmental impacts.
10 And the final note is that the 11 decommissioning funds that TVA already has set aside 12 for its existing nuclear operations were badly 13 depleted by the change in the economy and the stock 14 market decline.
15 TVA is already trying to figure out ways 16 to steal money from within its operating budget and 17 perhaps pass through charges to ratepayers to rebuild 18 that decommissioning fund, along with the retirement 19 funds for its employee retirees, and the whole issue 20 of an adequate decommissioning fund and how that's to 21 be accomplished and whether it's really adequate in an 22 age when you don't have nearly the options for the 23 disposal of high-level radioactive materials which 24 come when you disassemble a plant -- unless they're 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 57 planning to just, you know, build a mountain over the 1
thing, which I guess is the other option.
2 But I
would again ask that 3
decommissioning --
both its costs and its 4
practicability --
be listed as one of the 5
environmental concerns that has to be addressed.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you very much, 8
Brian.
9 We have one more speaker, Ann Harris, and 10 then we're going to go to another speaker.
11 MS. HARRIS: My name is Ann Harris, and 12 for those of you who have not been around as long as I 13 have, I was here for the first go-around, and it was a 14 go-around.
15 I went to work for TVA at Watts Bar 16 Nuclear Plant in nuclear construction in January 1982.
17 They told me I'd be there nine months. It was nine 18 years before I got a paycheck that did not have 19 overtime on it.
20 And I left under -- for me it was quite 21 a -- I don't want to way victory, because I didn't 22 really win anything; what I did is I turned some 23 magnificently strong lights into some really dark 24 areas of TVA's management, their money, their funding, 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 58 how they spend that money, and how they abuse not only 1
ratepayers, but they abuse each other, they abuse the 2
public, they abuse their future, and they abuse my 3
children and my grandchildren's future.
4 Couple of things that I want to address up 5
front that Brian talked about earlier: TVA's debt 6
that they admit to today is at $29.5 billion. That's 7
not my assessment anymore; that's what they admit to, 8
but it's more like 42 billion whenever you take all 9
that other rinky-dink stuff they don't count in; it's 10 called creative bookkeeping.
11 And they're in DC now, asking for more 12 funds. That doesn't even address the issue of 13 decommissioning funds, which they had a major start on 14 back in 1995, but somehow those funds got -- nobody 15 could ever tell me what they spent them on. So at 16 that point they had $257 million. The last time I 17 asked, they had 42 million, so you -- I'll let you 18 adjust your own mind as to where that money went.
19 Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant is listed by 20 Region 2 as the worst nuclear plant program in 21 America. Now, the same person that was over Browns 22 Ferry's fiasco is heading up the Unit 2 fiasco at 23 Watts Bar.
24 The amount of money that was spent at 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 59 Browns Ferry was two times the original designated 1
amount, and longer term, so if -- TVA's habits have 2
not changed in the past 25 years, the way I --
3 according to what TVA puts out. Now they're asking us 4
to believe -- or at least you to believe; they don't 5
want to ask me -- that they can do Unit 2 at Watts Bar 6
for less than $4 billion or thereabouts.
7 Well, they started out telling people that 8
they -- that Watts Bar 1 was $7 billion. That is not 9
true. When you add in the interest, the amortized 10 part of Unit 1 that you -- or Unit 2 that you already 11 paid for, it comes up to closer to $12-1/2 billion.
12 So now you're going to ask to be paid for probably 13 another 6 to $8 billion on this one.
14 I'm told by inside sources that are 15 working with the engineers that we have engineers on 16 site that don't know the difference between a code 17 plant and a noncode plant. Maybe the NRC can describe 18 to the engineers that are working on Unit 2 at Watts 19 Bar what the difference is and how they need to -- how 20 they can see that what they're doing is not working.
21 Browns Ferry is a noncode plant. Watts 22 Bar Unit 2 is a code plant. And for those of you that 23 don't know and didn't work at the plant, you'll just 24 have to look it up and trust me on that one.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 60 I find that the evacuation plan -- and 1
this is just kind of silly. I'm appalled that the NRC 2
even lets this get put in print. But in the 3
evacuation plan, that they're going to take the people 4
that live north of the plant, in Spring City and ten 5
miles on both sides of the river, and they're going to 6
move them up the valley 20 miles downwind; that means 7
north of -- the prevailing winds all move north in 8
this valley. You can't -- it's just common sense --
9 and if you live here, you would know that and wouldn't 10 question it.
11 But to take people that would be evacuated 12 from Watts Bar Nuclear Plant or the surrounding 13 community and move them 20 miles up the valley to put 14 them in storage in a gymnasium at the junior 15 college -- I mean, I live there, in the connecting 16 community. This is just beyond the pale. I mean, I 17 just -- I don't know if the NRC -- if they just really 18 and truly don't care any more or if they're just too 19 ignorant to ask anybody besides themselves, who don't 20 trust each other.
21 My mother lives in a direct line of eight 22 miles from Watts Bar Nuclear Plant. She's blind.
23 She's 86 years old, and she's in severe bad health. I 24 take care of her. In fact, somebody's hired today so 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 61 I could be here with y'all. I know that you're going 1
to enjoy what I have to say, but this is the truth.
2 My mother gets a calendar; it's this size 3
(indicating). She didn't know what it was, because 4
she couldn't read it. And then we put all of the 5
announcements on Knoxville and Chattanooga radios.
6 What's the problem with putting it out on the local 7
radios? My mother doesn't listen to Chattanooga and 8
Knoxville; she can't even get them. She listens to 9
Athens; she listens to Dayton; she listens to 10 Crossville.
11 What is it with you guys? My mother 12 cannot read this calendar, and I go into it, and I 13 find something that is so disgusting y'all all ought 14 to get up and walk out; I think you ought to be fired 15 now, because in this calendar it says, Take this 16 calendar and keep it with you wherever you go, so that 17 whenever the accident happens, you'll know which 18 direction to go in.
19 And part of the direction is to come back 20 toward the area that will be so bad that it'll be 21 blocked off. What is it with you people? Don't y'all 22 read what you write? Don't you ever look at it? I 23 mean, it's just really disgusting.
24 This is what you're doing to my family.
25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 62 Think about -- there's other -- I'm not -- my mother's 1
not the only elderly woman in these communities; she's 2
not the only one. There's little children. I've got 3
great-grandchildren that will be affected by this, 4
sitting in close proximity to Watts Bar.
5 How do you think this makes me feel, to 6
know that I'm paying your salaries, and you're not 7
doing your job. You're just accepting whatever TVA 8
hands you, and TVA will hand you a bunch of garbage, 9
because they will lie. Got it? I don't even want to 10 have to say it anymore: You can't trust TVA. You 11 can't trust TVA. How long do you have to have that 12 said to you?
13 And now you can't trust the NRC, because 14 the NRC, they are so close in bed with TVA, that 15 you're beginning to look a bit foolish, even from 16 other people, not just me.
17 Somehow or another this Environmental 18 Impact Statement has to address these issues that 19 concern and deal with people's lives on a day-to-day 20 basis, and if these jobs are the best that TVA can 21 provide, somebody else needs to be running TVA besides 22 somebody that's running a bunch of serfdoms.
23 I am told by workers -- this is not 24 engineers; this is workers, from the inside -- that 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 63 the 21 million that you paid Bechtel to go in and see 1
if Unit 2 could be brought up to speed, they spent 2
their $21 million, walked around, and said, Yeah, we 3
can do it; y'all have a good time.
4 Then, guess what? Bechtel turned around 5
and said, Okay; we're going to start letting them 6
decide what all needs to be done. Bechtel's still 7
looking at what needs to be done; they're still 8
looking at it, because they're finding such massive 9
amounts of rust and corrosion and equipment that 10 cannot be used, won't be used, and cannot be replaced 11 with what is there, because those people left and seen 12 better days somewhere else that got the money, that 13 took it and run.
14 So, yes, am I angry about this? Yeah, I 15 am, because this is my money; this is my family. So 16 what about yours TVA? You going to set by and let 17 your own people swallow you whole? I mean, it's 18 just -- it's really disgusting.
19 You don't have -- there's no water testing 20 in this river of radionuclides by an outside sources.
21 That's according to TDEC's own mouth. That's not my 22 opinion. They trust TVA.
23 Well, we trusted TVA up at Kingston.
24 There's tritium in the soil and the water, above legal 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 64 limits. It's sitting there, and nobody's doing 1
anything about it; you're just pumping more.
2 And this idea that tritium won't hurt 3
you -- why do we use it to make bombs go off faster 4
than what they did when just a normal bomb? There's 5
no wastewater program to stop the radionuclides going 6
into the Chattanooga and others' drinking water.
7 Now, then for the bigger problem. I'm not 8
going to read this seven-page letter, because it 9
appeared in the Nashville Tennessean, but I'm telling 10 you, Region 2, we're asking for Congressional hearings 11 on you and your inability to deal with TVA.
12 This is a repeat of the 1985 and '86 13 hearings, and you can look for these to be just as 14 disgusting whenever we uncover that pile of crap.
15 MR. CAMERON: Okay. That's the inimitable 16 Ann Harris. Thank you.
17 And this is Don Safer. Sorry, Don, that I 18 missed you before: Tennessee Environmental Council.
19 MR. SAFER: Well, I apologize to the crowd 20 for getting you excited that Ann was the last speaker.
21 I signed the wrong sign-up sheet.
22 I'm the chairman of the board of the 23 Tennessee Environmental Council. I live in Nashville.
24 We are a private nonprofit, nongovernment agency that 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 65 is concerned with statewide environmental issues, and 1
this to me is a very large, important statewide 2
environmental issue.
3 The -- I'm going to start by going into 4
the storage casks -- the spent-fuel storage casks that 5
are being placed by the river right now. They're 6
going to be placed there with greater frequency if 7
this second plant goes on line.
8 I think it's important to know that inside 9
of those casks the radiation is far worse than what 10 went in. The radionuclides in there, there's 11 plutonium, which didn't even exist on the face of the 12 earth until we started fooling with the atom 60, 70 13 years ago, and that's one of the most awful substances 14 on the face of the earth.
15 It is bomb-making material, but one atom 16 of that that gets into your lungs, if it gets 17 airborne, will give you lung cancer; it will kill you.
18 It burns on contact with the air, spontaneously.
19 It's sitting in there.
20 It's not a whole big lot of plutonium in 21 there; that's why reprocessing is such a nightmare, 22 because to get enough plutonium to make it work, 23 you've got to create a lot of other waste.
24 But inside of there is just this cauldron 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 66 of about 500 degrees -- it's too hot at the beginning, 1
for the first five years, to put these fuels rods into 2
these dry casks; they have to be put into the storage 3
pools, which are overloaded currently and have had to 4
be modified because of the lack of any real storage 5
solution.
6 And then after five years they go into 7
these concrete-steel dry cask storage that are not 8
hardened, and they are out -- I've seen them at Browns 9
Ferry; they are just out in the open.
10 I went there for an NRC hearing about the 11 unscheduled shutdowns of that unit that they brought 12 back on line, the five of them in the first five or 13 six months. It caused a big, huge slap on the wrist 14 by the NRC. I will have to support some of what Ann 15 said about the NRC seems to be the enabler of the 16 nuclear industry and not the watchdog, and that's not 17 any news for people that have been following this 18 issue for quite a while, but in those casks, that 19 cauldron of 500-degree Fahrenheit radioactive material 20 that's 1000 or 100,000 times more radioactive than the 21 original fuel rods is doing who knows what.
22 I mean, I asked -- I've forgotten your 23 name, but I asked three gentlemen from the NRC earlier 24 today, in private, or in a conversation at the open 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 67 house, What's going on inside of those casks? Has 1
anybody taken one of those apart after ten years?
2 To my knowledge, nobody has, and what I've 3
heard is that it's all sort of, you know, just kind of 4
decomposing. Nothing stays the same. You put it in 5
there, and it's 500 degrees of boiling radioactive 6
science experiment.
7 And they were supposed to last for about 8
20 or 30 years at first; now they're saying, well, 9
they'll go for 50 and probably a hundred. Well, it's 10 your community here that is the guinea pig on this, as 11 well as the community at every other nuclear reactor 12 site, because that's what's happening with all of 13 these; there's no plan at all to move them away from 14 your community, and these things, as Mr. Paddock said, 15 they remain toxic for literally several hundred 16 thousand years.
17 And we're talking about 2000 years ago was 18 when Jesus lived, and we're talking about a substance 19 that is that kind of a legacy to our -- the heirs that 20 come behind us.
21 And some people have said that the 22 electricity you get from the nuclear reactor is not 23 really the primary component or the primary outcome; 24 it's really all this nuclear waste, because the 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 68 electricity you generate, we use it or we don't, and 1
it's gone.
2 And currently, as has been mentioned, 3
we're wasting a large percentage of what is being 4
generated at these plants. People in California has 5
easily as nice a lifestyle as we have, and they use 6
about 50 percent of the electricity, per capita, that 7
we use.
So that's getting into the energy 8
conservation side.
9 So that's what going on inside those 10 storage casks, which are going to be more and more 11 along the river. They are not designed to be flooded.
12 I don't know this particular site; I haven't seen it.
13 I know at Browns Ferry they're not that high off of 14 the river, and if they're flooded, then the cooling 15 that is just a convection cooling with vents gets 16 clogged with debris and what-not, and who knows what 17 can happen.
18 I think as -- since this reactor was 19 proposed in the '60s, designed in the -- or licensed 20 in the '70s, we had a lot of opportunity to have all 21 these nuclear plants that have been operating.
22 And I haven't seen any public health 23 studies about the communities that are downwind, you 24 know, with the windrows of where the wind blows, and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 69 if it's true that nobody is getting sick, that their 1
cancer rates and leukemia rates are not elevated, 2
wonderful; I would love to see it. But I haven't seen 3
it. I've looked for it. It's not easy to find.
4 I think in this Environmental Impact 5
Statement we need to have a clear study of Watts Bar 6
1; Sequoyah, the two units, and -- well, in particular 7
those three, because they're the same design of 8
reactor.
9 Getting into that reactor design, that 10 design dates from the 1960s. I was in high school 11 when that thing was first proposed. I'm retired now.
12 A lot of things have changed. You know, a lot of 13 people in this room are not that much different in age 14 from me; many are younger.
15 But, my gosh, that design comes from the 16 middle '60s; that was when the Mustang -- the first 17 iteration of the Mustang was the hottest car going.
18 You wouldn't buy the Mustang if it was in the 19 showroom -- the 1965 -- well, you might buy it as an 20 antique, but it's not going to perform up to 21 environmental standards or whatever; the point being 22 that this design was put together was an idea of cost 23 containment and not safety.
24 When it was originally designed and 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 70 approved, there was -- Chernobyl had not happened.
1 They thought an event like Chernobyl, an event like 2
Three-Mile Island was not even possible; it was not in 3
the design criteria for the original design, so that 4
there -- and that's why they've had to go back with 5
this hydrogen, you know, ignition system and how you 6
take care of all that hydrogen.
7 This was the cheapest reactor TVA could 8
build at the time. It's a clear indication of the 9
same culture that put that ash into the river. TVA 10 was dumping that ash into that pile for 50 years.
11 They had plenty of indications that the ash pile was 12 suspect.
13 I mean, there were leaks; there were wet 14 spots. There were studies that $26 million could have 15 saved that whole billion-dollar nightmare. One of the 16 ten worst environmental disasters on the planet is 17 what that was called by Newsweek, and it could have 18 been saved with $26 million worth of investment, and 19 TVA would not spend it because of their slavish 20 devotion to the bottom line and keeping our electric 21 rates low, which I appreciate, but it's given 22 everybody the wrong message.
23 The era of cheap energy is over. We can't 24 go back to it. We have got to get more efficient with 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 71 the energy we use. I love electricity; I use it every 1
day, and I'm not wanting to go into the dark either, 2
but we can be a lot smarter, and we are -- the nuclear 3
option is a false avenue to go down; it's a dead-end 4
that takes a lot of money and is taking far too much 5
of the research dollars that should be going into all 6
the renewable possibilities.
7 Back to that ice-condenser design, who can 8
imagine putting 3 million pounds of ice in a nuclear 9
reactor so that you can make the containment structure 10 half as thick?
11 My gosh, that's a fabulous idea. I 12 applaud whoever came up with it. It's a wonderful 13 idea. It's just like Rube Goldberg, though; it's 14 stupid. You know, I mean, you have all that ice, 15 which has problems with subsidence. I went on line, 16 you know, last few days, and somebody patented an idea 17 of what do you do with the ice that's compacted in 18 there?
19 The ice, from what I read, it's one-foot-20 wide cylinders that are 50-feet tall, and they're 21 wrapped with these steel containment things that are 22 sort of straps. And so they can't get in there to 23 replace the ice very easily, and somebody invented 24 some sort of a -- I didn't look at the design, but 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 72 some sort of a contraption to replace the ice, because 1
they were having problems with the ice just melting 2
away, which it does naturally, and not having the 3 3
million pounds they needed to survive an incident, 4
which is really a core meltdown, and to keep that 5
containment structure, however fragile it is, from 6
melting down.
7 So in closing, I'm very sympathetic to the 8
16 percent unemployment in this county. Green jobs, 9
the green economy is really the way the new jobs are 10 going to be. There's the solar industry.
11 Admittedly, the current designs of solar 12 take energy to create the solar panels. Thankfully we 13 have hydro power in the Tennessee Valley that could be 14 used for that.
15 But the green economy is the economy of 16 the future. The solar industry is booming in 17 Tennessee; it works. One thing that people aren't 18 even thinking about in terms of solar is solar hot-19 water heat.
20 It's the most simple thing in the world.
21 They do it in Israel; they do it all around the world.
22 It doesn't involve, you know, polysilicon crystals; 23 it just involves putting something black with the 24 water in it where the sun hits it. You do have to 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 73 figure out how to not make it freeze, but, hey, it's 1
not rocket science.
2 So anyway, the green economy is how we're 3
going to get back, and part of that green economy is 4
to learn how to reintegrate our rural areas, our 5
smaller towns with our urban centers and create the --
6 you know, in Nashville people are nuts about local 7
produce.
8 There's a whole industry of local growers 9
that is growing up all around Nashville, and people 10 are making a living at it. It's hard work; it's 11 honest work. You get your fingernails dirty, but it's 12 just an old-fashioned way to do it.
13 And, you know, getting back to more 14 locally based economies with an eye toward creating 15 jobs in our rural counties is definitely something 16 that we need to do, but these nuclear plants don't 17 create very many jobs after construction, and they 18 leave these legacy of these storage casks that our 19 grandchildren, our great-grandchildren and those 20 beyond that will not remember us will curse us for 21 those storage casks.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Don.
24 That's our last speaker for this 25
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 74 afternoon's meeting. We're going to be back here 1
starting at 6:30, and we have a 5:30 open house before 2
that for those of you who want to return.
3 But I would just thank you for all of your 4
comments, and with that, unless Radovan wants to say 5
anything, we will adjourn.
6 Thank you very much.
7 (Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m., the public 8
hearing was concluded.)
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