ML083250650
| ML083250650 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Watts Bar  |
| Issue date: | 06/12/2008 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML083260751 | List: |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-1521, NUDOCS 8606180197 | |
| Download: ML083250650 (52) | |
Text
00000101 mary imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 MR. EBERSOLE:
Thank you.
MR. GRIDLEY:
So I an not going to spend any more time on that.
Design control, Mr. Drotleff will be discussing that with you.
MR. MICHELSON:
Before you leave that, In the case of Browns Ferry, I believe you had had about an 80 percent failure rate on your requalification examinations? Is that correct?
MR. GRIDLEY:
Well, let me try it.
MR. MICHELSON:
What I want to do Is ask you about about the qualification for Sequoyah and where are you at on that requalification?
MR. GRIDLEY:
I can't answer that.
I do know that the Browns Ferry requal examinations I believe are next week.
MR. COTTLE:
The 16th.
MR. MICHELSON:
On the previous ones though there was a very high rate of failure.
What was the story on Sequoyah?
MR. CROCKER:
We had NRC requalification exams on Sequoyah some two months ago.
MR. MICHELSON:
And how do they look?
MR. STAHLE:
Quite satisfactory.
MR. MICHELSON:
So it looks a whole lot better.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide covcrage 890-336-i646
00000101 saryeimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 MR. STAHLE:
Much better.
MR. MICHELSON:
What fraction were requalified at Sequoyah?
MR. STAHLE:
I don't remomber, but it certainly was quite satisfactory as compared to Browns Ferry. So we were pleased In that sense.
MR. GRIDLEY:
I don't want to add to your agenda, but as you know, the corporate training facility is at Sequoyah, and If tiere is an interest with meeting with Dr.
Johnson, we can put him in the agenda for a short discussion tomorrow.
(Slide.)
On the Implementation of the plan, and I am concluding.
(Laughter.)
Before TVA operates any of thq plants it will Implement the improvements which are essential to be sure that effective management of the activities Is being carried out.
That is a commitment that Mr. White has made, and he made It yesterday to Congressman Dingell.
The Improvements which TVA considers essential are getting the orgainization and the management team where they are not in the process of writing policy, directives, standards and procedures, but are actually Implementing the management of the functions that they have been assigned.
ACE-FEDERAL. REiORTERS. INC.
202-147-3700 Nationwide ( ocrage 800O 1.6-6646
.00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
- 0) 25 195 It is essential that we have the procedures in place to manage the activity, and it Is essential that we are communicating with the employees on what we expect then to carry out while we do the job.
The restructuring of the organization, that 13 essentially complete, but I think I have left you with the understanding that we have got a lot of work to do procedurally and position description-wise.
MR. MICHELSON:
Regarding restructuring of organization and looking at the material, and perhaps you said it, I don't recall, the basic approach though is that to take care of the short term you are using contract people or whatever, and to take care of the longer term you are training deputies and whatever. Admittedly this is going to have to be a very fast training program since these contract people are only here for a defined term of about two years of which In many cases six months has already gone by.
So I look through the organizational structure and I look for the Identification of these people that you said you were going to pinpoint to be deputies or assistants or whatnver and I find them lacking in a number of Important areas, and as ai example, engineering, and I don't find any deputy named there, but maybe I missed It on the chart.
How are you training aomebody to take over on such a short notice as about a year and a half from now if that ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37(00 Natisonwide 'overage M)- 336-6646
.00000101 mary. izons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 Is your plan? And If not, then what Is the plan?
MR. GRIDLEY:
First of all, as I pointed out, 14 of these 26 are TVA people with a lot of TVA commercial experience. They have been identified as people who have the capability of moving Into any one of the line jobs.
MR. MICHELSON:
I was picking engineering only because I have a long past Interest and understanding of how that is set up.
How Is engineering as a case in point of the problem going to be handled?
MR. GRIDLEY:
Why aon't I do this.
Mr. Drotleff Is here and he will be talking to you this afternoon.
MR. MICHELSON:
Then he can tell us at that time and that would take care of It.
MR. GRIDLEY:
The only other area that we have the similar situation is Quality Assurance, and you will be talking to Mr. Huston who Is the Deputy Director of Quality Assurance.
MR. MICHELSON:
But the year and a half is a very short time.
MR. GRIDLEY:
I agree.
(Slide.)
If you notice here, here is Collin Robertson who was hired into TVA from Houston Power and Light.
There you have Larry Jack-son.
I am thinking more of McCullough in Construction from Bechtel.
There are people who are coming ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
201-347-.1700 Nationwide covecrage M()-31&666
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 197 into the organization, and that is the type of hiring that we need to do.
I guess my point, Mr. Michelson, is a year and a half isn't a long time to train the management skills that we need at the line.
That Is not a long time. And unless we can find people of the caliber of the line staff that is there to come to work permanently for TVA, that won't be long and we have got to address that problem.
So I am agreeing with you I thiak that a year and a half is a very short period of time.
MR. WYLIE:
Thank you, Mr. Gridley.
Suppose we recess and come back at 2:40.
(Whereupon, at 1:40 p.m., the sutcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2:40 p.m., the same day.)
'V FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-37tk)
Nationwide ('overage 800-336-"
00000101 maryslmons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 198 AFTERNOON SESSION (2:40 p.M.)
MR. WYLIE:
We are tw. -urr behind schedule. So I will just remind the subcommittee members of that and ask for their cooperation in being concise and straight to the point.
Our next Item on the agenda is preliminary NRC Staff comments on the Corporate Nuclear Performance Plan, and I will call on Carl Stahle.
MR. HERNAN:
Mr. Wylie, what we would like to do and Mr. Youngblood would like to do Is combine that Item with the next preliminary comment, in other words, at the end of TVA's presentation.
MR. WYLIE:
Okay.
MR. HERNAN:
So we have no objection if you would like to proceed with TVA.
MR. WYLIE:
You want to tie it in with No. 6?
MR. HERNAN:
Right.
MR. WYLIE:
%e will do that.
Then If it is suitable with TVA we will proceed with their presentation.
MR. GRIDLEY: Mr. Wylie, we did have a question on the nuclear safety issue and we did ask Mr. Kantrell to come over.
MR. WYLIE:
All right.
MR. GRIDLEY:
I would like to introduce Robert ACE-FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
W2-4 7-. 7(X)
Nat ion% ide ('overage g}O-336-66"
00000101 mary. lmons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 Kantrell, Manager of the Nuclear Safety Review Board. He Is aware of the questions raised and will try and shed some light on where we are going.
MR. KANTRELL:
My name Is Robert Kantrell0 and I an Chairman of the Nuclear Safety Review Board.
Mr. White asked me In May to restructure a Nuclear
!-fety Review Board function to provide a nuclear conscience and nuclear safety oversight. My reporting relationship is directly with him, and he asked me to pull together a senior management review for oversight the nuclear safety in the Office of Nuclear Power.
That program is in development at this point, or the changes to that rrogram are In development at this point. Conceptually ! am looking at a senior management team of four or five TVA people and approximately the same number of recognized outside consultants who will monitor programmatic issues of nuclear safety and make recommendations to Mr. White.
MR. EBERSOLE:
Will they be a proactive group or will they just do what White tells them?
MR. KANTRELL:
'hey will be proactive if that is the two choices. Mr. White will review the charter and the policy that sets them up. He has invested in me a significant amount of independence in how we structure the review.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-147-17(t)
Nat ionwide ('ocragc 8W33&6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 200 The review board will meet the tech spec review requirements for independent review, but it is not limited by that.
MR. EBERSOLE:
It will be a matter of record what you propose to proactively look at and what he lets you look at, right?
MR. KANTRELL:
I don't understand.
MR. EBERSOLE:
Let's say you have a list of proactlve projects in mind you want to look at and you go to him and ask him if you can and he says yes, you can take five out of seven.
MR. KANTRELL:
No, I would not envision that.
I would envision that we would independently assess and review the programmatic aspects of the plants, and as we see something that we feel that we should recommend, that we would recommend and ask Mr. White to prepare a response. We would not solve the problems.
MR. MICHELSON:
Are you going to tell us how many permanent people are performing the staff work to support these 8 to 10 members of the board?
MR. KANTRELL:
Carl, I think, and this is conceptual and I have not reviewed this, but I envision subcommittees. The subcommittees would be staffed by line organizations probably at mid-level managers.
MR. MICHEL3ON:
How much capability will you have ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202.347-37(X)
Nationwidc Coverage 80-336-6646
00000101 maryslmons 1
2 3
4 5
6 8
9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 201 in-house In your own organization to originate, think about and put forward potential safety issues?
MR. KANTRELL:
The structure that I have looked at, the ones chat I have looked at are GPU and Clinton and some other boards, and they are generally very small in house staffs, but they would request line organizations to through Mr. White to generate Inputs and presentations for them.
MR. MICHELSON:
You are expecting the line organizations to tell you about what they think the potential problems are?
MR. KANTRELL:
I think the potential problems I expect to see from the symptoms of the plant, through LER's and through other indications of problems at the plant.
I also expect that the consultants that we bring onboard will be industry experienced and be versed in what are problems across the industry.
MR. MICHELSON:
Let me ask it a little differently then. How often do you envision meeting as a board of 8 to 10 people?
MR. KANTRELL:
I am imagining meeting on a frequency of about every two months.
MR. MICHELSON:
So one person say from TVA or the outside comes to a meeting every two months. How much homework do you think he is going to do before he comes to ACE-FEDERAl. REPORTERS, INC.
0 Nationwide ('oerage tCX)-33&-6646 202-347-3]7(
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
'.w 25 202 the meeting?
MR. KANTRELL: We have assessed the job and In looking at what we would propose, we would assume that probably it would take a board member probably two days of preparation for the one-day meeting as a minimum.
MR. MICHELSON:
So this is equivalent of about ACRS does on a particular issue.
MR. KANTRELL:
We have tried to look at staff production work in order that his time can be efficient at that.
We are looking for higher level people and we are expecting to give them review material that will challenge them in that format.
MR. WARD:
This is a single committee for the corporation?
MR. KANTRELL:
For each plant.
MR. WARD:
Pardon me?
MR. KANTRELL:
There will be a review board for Browns Ferry, for Sequoyah and Watts Bar.
MR. WARD:
Oh. a separate board for each site?
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes.
MR. WARD:
And you will chair each of those?
MR. KANTRELL:
And I will chair each of them.
MR. WARD:
Will there be any other connection among those three or four boards?
MR. KANTRELL:
Not by design. Some of the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Covcrage 800-336-6646
00000101 narysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 203 consultants may -- I may have a consultant that will be on more than one board. The senior TVA management, I have tried to limit their participation to only one board.
Let me give you an example. I would restrict it to the senior management and probably one tier below them in order to get rotation.
MR. MICHELSON: What is different about this arrangement than what TVA did before?
MR. KANTRELL:
Carl, there is a lot of difference to me. First of all, I think the outside consultants and the people that I have talked to in the other areas that have had other review boards, and primarily GPU, feel like the influence senior consultants in the board tends to keep it very much balanced and brings a broader perspective to it.
MR. MICHELSON: TVA had no offsite members before?
MR. KANTRELL:
They have had on occasion, but they have been very limited and in the minority. We expect to use them as --
MR. MICHELSON:
They met about the same frequency.
MR. KANTRELL:
They met about the same frequency.
MR. MICHELSON: And what do you think about the effectiveness of the board in the past and why do you think that is going to change in the future?
MR. KANTRELL:
I think the board in the past ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202. 347-17WX Nationwide (overagc g0M-..6-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 identified problems.
I think that the board in the past was generally constituted of mid-level managers.
I hope that by the involvement of the senior management that by the time the issues are aired and it gets to the point of recommendation there is a great deal of buy-in of the concern by the line management.
MR. MICHELSON:
Are you claiming any independence for this board?
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes, I am.
MR. MICHELSON:
The four or five senior managers that are members, are they coming from divisions not involved in the deliberations that the board will have on a given project, for instance?
In other words, is the Site Director one of them?
MR. KANTRELL:
The Site Director will be one of them, but they would be a minority. He would not be considered as independent for his site.
MR. MICHELSON:
No, I wouldn't think so. How about the Engineering Director for Nuclear Engineering on site, is he in on it?
MR. KANTRELL:
No, he would not be a member.
Senior engineering management would.
MR. MICHELSON:
Could we get a feeling for who else you would pick from?
MR. KANTRELL:
Senior engineering management would ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide coverage 800- 36-6646
00000101 maryalmons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 205 be.
MR. MICHELSON:
You mean from Knoxville?
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes.
Senior QA would be members.
MR. MICHELSON:
So nobody else from site except the Site Director.
MR. KANTRELL: The Site Director.
MR. REED:
Having served on a board similar to this a couple of years ago or three years ago with a similar structure, I think that in view of the TVA criticisms and all these things that it is a wise idea to structure these boards with outside people for not only the other issues and incidents that can be brought to bear, but I think it tends, and I have experienced this, it tends to cause the manajers and the superintendents and supervisors as they come in before the board to open up a lot more and there is no fear of harassment or any other problem.
I think that outside consultants on the board really adds to the total objectivity and forthrightness of the scene.
MR. KANTRELL:
I guess I feel like of the in-house parameters that are brought to bear for safety for a plant that safety is best conserved when those various parameters have somewhat near equal weight, and I think that the consultants tend to keep that quality across the engineering operations.
ACE.FEDERAL REPORTERS. INC.
202-347-37(
Nationwide (overage
)-3 6W66
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 MR. MICHELSON:
I thought Glenn's point though was that you wouldn't select the Site Director as a member of this. Is that what you were saying?
MR. REED:
No, the Site Director could be a member. As long as you have two or three outside people, the objectivity and the complete forthrightness will be served.
MR. KANTRELL:
I feel that there is an advantage to having the Site Director being a party of the deliberations for problems that might be a part of his plant. I think it would be wrong if the people directly responsible for that were In the majority, but I believe that it is a strength to have him on there.
MR. EBERSOLE:
Will there be one 1kr Watts Bar as well as Sequoyah?
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes.
MR. EBERSOLE:
So it is a bunch of boards.
MR. KANTRELL:
It Is at least three boards.
MR. WARD:
What are the tradeoffs between that and a single corporate-wide board? Did the regulations require a separate one for each site?
MR. KANTRELL:
No.
I guess we feel that if you were to look at the involvement of a senior manager and he had to participate in the volume of material that he should be involved with across that many units, cnat it would ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 8M0336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 S
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 probably be an inordinate amount of time. There are speciality areas that I think you would complement differently with consultants.
I think that each board would be enhanced by just having one major project to deal with.
Let me characterize this.
I had a very brief charge from Mr. White.
These are muy thoughts which I have a high degree of confidence are on target and will be Implemented in some form.
MR. MICHELSON:
Now as I understood it earlier.
and correct me if I am wrong, but it is envisioned that perhaps the Nuclear Safety Review Board, and I am not sure what that means now since there are several such boards, but somehow that was to be the focal point for safety in the agency and we to be the corporation's conscientious as it relates to safety.
Is that the way you ervision it as well?
MR. KANTRELL:
The way I envision it is that the organization through the line organizations have delegated authorities and safety is interspersed in many places, in the PORC function, in the Independent safety review function, in quality assurance functions and In lots of places.
This board is a senior top-level board that Is to look at the health of that organization and point out the problems and deficiencies.
It is the objective that the line organizations correct the problems.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nat ion'A ide 'o% crage 800-336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 208 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't have any quarrel with anything you are saying.
I an trying to determine though if there is to be any origination on the part of TVA or if It is just really following that if a problem arrives, this is how it Is handled, and this Is the organization that handles it.
To what extent to you sit back and look at your organization with a little broader perspective than deciding whether or not It is safe as opposed to something going wrong today and deciding if it is safe to start up tomorrow or whatever?
MR. KANTRELL:
I think the concept is that history foretells the future in one aspect.
I think that one of the differences I hope to achieve between the old nuclear safety review boards which essentially just reacted to individual Items and this board is that I would expect that hopefully we are spending 50 percent of our time looking at tea leaves and the other half of our time trying to forecast a direction.
MR. MICHELSON:
So I guess you are telling me If I will look at the Individual organizations I will see where the tea leaves are being observed and the Information is being fed to you.
If I don't find them in the other organizations, then I have a little difficulty.
But you think It is there.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800.3&6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 MR. KANTRELL:
I think it is there.
I think one of the issues is that the review board has to become comfortable with the organizational arrangements and the division of responsibilities.
MR. MICHELSON:
For the grist for your mill comes from the organization?
MR. KANTRELL: Yes, and Industry.
MR. CARBON:
As I understand it, perhaps half of your effort might be the long-range review of safety of a particular plant and another half perhaps in looking at thoughts that are brought to y~ur mind by the outside consultants raising questions or LER's raising questions or some thing, and I guess you won't involved In day-to-day or startup-to-startup decisions on particular safety matters at individual plants.
Is that correct?
MR. KANTRELL:
If the board functions as I hope it will, the organization takes care of the running of the organization for safety on a day-to-day basis, and that this board will be an oversight board that says that that mechanism in place is functioning well enough to give Mr.
White confidence of safety or It recommends where that organization or function should be adjusted.
MR. CARBON:
Now will you have any formal or informal connection with any safety group at any of the sites at each of the sites?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-1'7O Not ionwide Coerage 8O-3366W
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a
25 210 MR. KANTRELL:
I would expect that we have whatever access to those resources and outputs as we want.
MR. CARBON:
Now the gentleman, and I believe it was you this morning, who was saying that you are on a safety board at Sequoyah and you were talking about how much time you put in, would you mind repeating that?
It sounded like quite a bit of time Into safety review matters.
MR. LAMBERT:
In the review of the papers in the meetings it has averaged about 20 hours2.314815e-4 days <br />0.00556 hours <br />3.306878e-5 weeks <br />7.61e-6 months <br /> a month.
MR. CARBON:
Now if a question came of startup or don't start up and the Site Manager has to make that decision and safety is his responsibility, where does your group fit into that because this group doesn't fit into it?
MR. LAMBERT:
I view that both groups fit into it.
I am currently the Nuclear Safety Review Board for Sequoyah.
MR. KANTRELL:
Let me try to clarify this.
He is on the Nuclear Safety Review Board as it is organized and functioning today. I have been asked to organize and change that function to a senior review board.
MR. CARBON:
That clarifies a lot.
MR. MICHELSON:
If you get a new board with a new composition maybe you have to be a Division Director to even be on it. I don't know.
MR. LAMBERT:
But for the record, the Nuclear ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800336-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 0
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 Safety Review Board has the charge of recommending that the plant not restart based upon a safety issue.
MR. CARBON:
Do those terms mean this board?
MR. LAMBERT:
Both boards will be the same.
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes. I think I could make a recommendation to Mr. White.
MR. CARBON:
But you won't get involved 48 hours5.555556e-4 days <br />0.0133 hours <br />7.936508e-5 weeks <br />1.8264e-5 months <br /> prior to startup of Watts Bar.
MR. KANTRELL:
Not on a routine basis.
If a Site Director or if Mr. White asked us tc review a situation before it started, you know, we could do that, but as a routine matter we are not in that strain.
MR. CARBON: Well, if the Site Manager at Watts Bar faces a safety decision prior to startup, who is going to influence him in that six-hour decision there? You are long range, and your activity may or may not continue, depending on how the reorganization takes place.
MR. LAMBERT:
It will not continue.
MR. CARBON:
Who is the Site Manager going to call on for safety help or, conversely, who is going to try and influence him whether he calls on them or not?
MR. KANTRELL:
I believe that as I envision our organization that the line organization with the functions, Engineering has a responsibility, Quality has a responsibility and Operations has a responsibility to make ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide co erage 800-336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 212 decisions to start up, but it is ultimately with that Site Director, as I understand it.
That system functioning in place brings those forces to bear on a day-to-dsy basis to give the Site Director the Information he needs.
our function Is to see that that system Is running true.
MR. CARBON:
Is part of that on-site system specifically --
will it be a safety group, a safety function or a safety something? You mentioned QA and you mentioned Engineering.
Is there somebody there who is going to be concerned about safety?
MR. KANTRELL:
I am from an engineering background.
I can only say that if I were the Project Engineer for that plant that as far as engineering was concerned, that Site Director would have my voice from a safety perspective prior to startup.
MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, but that is not the normal job of the engineering on site to sit down and worry about the details of safety philosophy and so forth.
They have a much more direct Involvement in getting things fixed and redesigned or whatever.
But you are also saying that they are also supposed to be laying back at the same time and taking a bigger, broader view of It and looking at the stuff INPO Is feeding to them and looking at the stuff other plants are experiencing, looking at all this and pulling it ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800.336-6646
.00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 1~.6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 together, In addition to their regular responsibilities? I have difficult with that.
MR. COTTLE:
If I could Interject something. I hnve been in on many a plant startup over the last 15 years, and I haven't seen a safety philosophy Issue that tends to come up tour hours before plant startup.
MR. MICHELSON:
That's right.
MR. COTTLE:
I have seen many is this system operable because of this hanger or this component being out or this pump, and those type of safety decision-MR. MICHELSON:
It Is not that the problems didn't exist, but you didn't even consider them because they were beyond the Immediate problem that the NRC stated that this particular snubber neede to be changed out or whatever.
Those are the kind of safety decisions you deal with. These others are still back in the generic issues and the unresolved safety issues and so forth.
The question Is to what extent, if any, does TVA consider such areas?
MR. COTTLE:
I guess the only point I was trying to make, Mr. Michelson, is those are typically not short term and short-look type decisions that are being made.
MR. MICHELSON:
That's right.
MR. COTTLE:
I think those properly fall fall over into the spectrum of the Nuclear Safety Review Board because ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
00 Nat ion wide Coverage X)-33&6646 202-347-37
00000101 larys ions 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 it Is that looking ahead look at philosoph,.
MR. MICHELSON:
They are not set up to look at these kinds of issues because they don't have staff assistance.
MR. COTTLE:
But they have access to a large number of resources that they can utilize, including contractor resources If the Chairman of the Nuclear Safety Review Board determines that he needs them.
MR. CARBON:
My example in g-abbing the six-hour thing probably was not good. But the point Is, if I understand correctly, the Nuclear Safety Review Board is not to be set up as an operating board to help the Site Manager.
It isn't the board that he will call up and say, gee, do I have a safety problem here and tell me about it or something. It is going to be more of a review sort of thing.
What we are trying to find out is, whether it is six hours, three weeks or six months, who does the Site Manager call on for help on safety problems?
MR. COTTLE:
I feel, depending on the problem, component or hardware related, that obviously he has got a design engineering group to call on. He has got contacts either through the Nuclear Safety Review Board, including other parts of the industry, or through the generic licensing section under Gridley to ask is this problem ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202.347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
00000101
.mary.
imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 throughout the industry and how is McGuire and Catawba and D. C. Cook or other ice condenser plants addressing It.
MR. MICHELSON:
I gathered though that Gridley isn't going to do the looking.
He is going to do the passing on of the Information to somebody else who is looking.
MR. COTTLE:
Well, not looking from strictly an experienced review program. He is not the evaluator in that.
If some safety Issue comes up, for example, over we reduced ice condenser required weights for tech specs, and an engineering analysis says that may not be adequate.
Through licensing back out into the Industry to the Duke Power or the D. C. Cook is an appropriate path to go and one which is taken.
MR. CARBON:
Let me go back to a question this morning.
How does the Site Manager at Watts Bar, how does he get input on the results of PRA's that somebody has done at some other plant, which should be real worthwhile information for him to be acquainted with in detail? How does he learn that there was a PRA performed on a comparable plant some place else and if they found certain problems that needed correction and so on.
How does he know about that?
MR. COTTLE:
Typically my receipt of that information was through the design organization, and it ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
O00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 216 would be In the context of here is a problem we have been looking at.
The Catawba plant had a PRA performed on that aspect and here Is the results and the solution that came out and here is what we recommend that Watts Bar to address that.
MR. CARBON:
You say the design organization.
Well, I am assuming an operating plant.
Does the Division of Nuclear Engineering, Is that the group that would give this to you?
MR. COTTLE:
Yes, sir, Nuclear Engineering.
MR. WARD:
It is not clear that that is in the function, and I guess we haven't seen the task descriptions.
I think what people are driving at is there doesn't seem to be any on3 assigned as the conscience or let's say as the devil's advocate to the Site Manager who has to make decisions, let's say, on whether to launch today or not, and it isn't necessarily a matter of safety philosophy, but it Is a matter of today's interpretation of some important thing.
Now Is clearly Isn't Kantrell's group.
That is long range.
It isn't Gridley's.
He say he is going to focus just on licensing and not on safety issues.
It certainly isn't going to be the QA people.
They aren't capable of that sort of thing in any organization I have ever seen.
Your Nuclear Engineering seems to be, from what ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS. INC.
202-347-.1700 Nationwide Coverage 800336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 217 I have heard, more of a design and project oriented group and not necessarily focused on the process and the safety of the process and that sort of thing.
It seems to me that that function really isn't supplied anywhere in the organization you have deecribed to US.
MR. COTTLE:
I am nc~t arguing that maybe the function Isn't needed in some form, but I guess thinking back I am hard put to come up with an example of the type of question or issue that you could be referring to that I haven't been able to get an answer from the Assistant Plant Manager or an Operations Supervisor or Site Director.
MR. CARBON:
But that business of get an answer is part of what we are concerned about.
Maybe you don't know there Is a problem because you have got so many things going on and there is something over here that you don't know about.
If you know about it, you know where to go and get an answer.
But how about if you don't know about it?
MR. COTTLE:
Problems I am not aware of, I very seldom-(Laughter.)
MR. MICHELSON:
So how much effort do you make to become aware of them?
MR. REED:
Let me try to help this situation a little bit by having been through the restarts of many units ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37WE Nationwide Covberage M00336-6646
- 00000101 rarysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 218 many times.
You are trying to cross here from a think tank field, administration and engineering and the overlord plateau fields Into the action field. Now you are going to get to the action field where they shoot real bullets on the front lines, and I call the trenches of nuclear.
You are talking about the restart of a unit, that is what I think you are talking about, and who makes the decision that it is safe to restart? That is going to made at the action level by those license people and plant senior people who look at tech specs-MR. CARBON:
I am really talking a lot broader than just that restart question. That was not a good example. Where does the Plant Manager or Site Manager learn that he has got a safety problem?
MR. REED:
Well, It is going to have to come back down from these staff organizations and staff people and engineering people to the Site Manager. Now he may be an unusually smart Site Manager and he may ftnd out that he has a problem coming up from the trenches, his trenches, but in most cases it is going to come down from the top.
Lots of times it ought to come from the NRC and I sometimes wonder if we do our job that well.
MR. MICHELSON:
That Is what we are looking for, Glenn, is where further up the line is it coming from, and ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
20.2-347-3700 Nationwide Cov'erage 800-336-6646
00000101
.mary.
imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 219 apparently It comes from many sources, but not necessarily focused.
MR. KANTRELL:
It comes from many sources, but I think that part of the Nuclear Safety Review Board's job is to see that those sources are active and are actively looking in order to raise those Issues, not only from within, engineering from engineering and quality from quality.
In my limited experience I guess I am most comfortable with the functions being embedded in regularly running line organizations than for a special group that gets in line just to assess like a startup issue.
I think that becomes an Issue that Is embedded in the organization.
MR. MICHELSON:
But the difficult of embedding such a function In an organization is that there are too many filters between the group doing the thinking and the person responsible for some action such as conveying a requirement to other parts of the agency or whatever. You have got to somehow assure that you haven't put too many filters in the system.
So you don't want to embed it very deeply, If you embed It at all, and we haven't heard a proposal as to whether it is embedded or not.
I haven't seen it embedded In any organization structure yet, but you are going to eventually show us where It is embedded in your structures.
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Co,.erage 800-336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
__sh 25 220 MR. KANTRELL:
I guess to take your analogy, I consider it a part of the Review Board's job to see that those filters are not deterrent to getting safety Issues up and getting them out and getting them open. And If they are, I think it Indicates a weakness in the basic program which has to be illuminated to Mr. White, and I guess I figure that is my job.
MR. MICHELSON:
I guess we will hear eventually either today or tomorrow where this function has been embedded in each these major organizations.
You said it is there in several places, and I have yet to see it Identified even once in a specific location so we can judge whether it is deeply embedded or really near the top where it can be heard and so forth.
MR. KANTRELL:
Carl, are you taking something like an SOER experience or something and trying to say how it is being addressed?
MR. MICHELSON:
Let me be very simply straightforward.
In the case of engineering, for instance, your so-called Nuclear Engineering, I am sure that there are many safety analyses performed there and thoughts and so forth.
To what extent within that Division Is it focused and where is it located as an example? Then go to the other Divisions, and are there other Divisions that have somewhat similar concentrations of focusing of a similar function or ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
00000101
.mary.
imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 not and, if so, where Is it located? I certainly ought to be able to find it on an organization chart or a description somewhere, you know, if It exists as even a reasonably focused activity within a given division.
MR. KANTRELL:
And the health and care of those type activities are the things that we would concentrate to see that they are working.
MR. MICHELSON:
Sure, and we would judge whether or not they are so embedded that they might not be heard as one case, and 'yOU might not get the resources and you might not be heard.
I would ask is there one person doing this or 20? I can't ask when I don't know where it is.
MR. GRIDLEY:
Well, the reason you are not hearing It Is because the policy as currently being viewed and not approved is that the safety or the public health is going to be throughout the Office of Power organization.
That isn't what you want to hear. You would like to hear an assignment of that responsibility in one of those boxes that Is on that organization chart.
MR. MICHELSON:
Where people have nothing else to do but - -
MR. GRIDLEY:
Nothing else to do but worry about safety>
MR. MICHELSON:
That's right.
MR. GRIDLEY:
As Mr. Kantrell point out, it is ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3~700 Nationwide Coverage 8MO33&-66"
00000101
.mary.
imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1s 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 will be the line organization with an oversight by his organization. Maybe you could help us a little bit-MR. MICHELSON:
You hiave made a very profound statement just now because I thought I was hearing things different earlier.
But you are saying really that you won't be able to point out distinct-MR. GRIDLEY:
I don't think there will be, or at least it is my understanding thait there will not be a box that there is just a safety officer reporting to Mr. White.
MR. COTTLE.:
That's true. There are elements in the organization charged with some of those responsibilities, the independent safety engineering group is one as an example, and will have one on each site.
The plant operations review committee, even though it Is not as Independent as you would like to see, is a second example on each site.
MR. EBERSOLE:
I am reminded of the question on systems interaction that has been kind of beat around the NRC recently. And, as a matter of fact, your plant itself was one of the examples of Inadequacies in the fact that. you blew up some of your rooms with carbon dioxide.
I presume there are, however, somewhere in your organization efforts In place to preclude a persistence of that sort of thing or get nil of all of it, or is there, and where Is It?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide concra~e 8M0336-6646
00000101 sarysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0.
223 MR. WARD:
Let's see, I guess I would like to make clear that I don't think everyone is advocating that there be necessarily a box for the safety officer.
MR. EBERSOLE:
I had an example, Dave, and I just wanted to get an answer before you take off.
MR. WARD:
Oh, I am sorry.
MR. EBERSOLE:
I didn't get an answer.
MR. COTTLE:
I am not sure I have an answers to your question, Mr. Ebersole.
MR. EBERSOLE:
You know my problem, don't you?
FROM THE FLOOR:
Charlie Chanley is heading up an effort right now to review these.
MR. KANTRELL:
I think Jesse's comment Is broader. I think basically you are looking at Interactions between disciplines and interactions between functions and so forth, and that has been an age old problem not only at TVA but everywhere. I think that designs have been compartmentalized in the past and I think that the organizations have been put In place and tend to address that with a multidiscipline look.
MR. EBERSOLE:
In an Integral function or just scattered like chicken feed all over the place?
MR. KANTRELL:
I wouldn't use that characterization. I don't think we have invested in any one or two people that level of expertise that can do a complete ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-47-3700 Nationwide Co crag 8&")-33&6646
.00000101 marys imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 0
13 14 15 16 17 i8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 interaction.
I think the process oOL design and the process of modifications and the process of operations has to address that.
And I get personally a great deal more comfort by seeing that those issues are illuminated and that the process Itself addresses those things.
I guess from Carl's point of view, while I wouldn't say that I have somebody with a capsule that says Nuclear Safety Officer for that plant, I think if you take the issues like as USQD determination or whatever, I think those issues will be embedded with responsibilities In the organization.
MR. MICHELSON:
I don't think anybody has advocated a Safety Officer as such.
I don't think that was ever suggested.
I think what was suggested is that perhaps you would like to focus in a few people, and a few people is not a big investment for TVA considering the $15 billion and so forth that you have got.
You ought to have a few people who can give it their undivided attention.
And you are saying no, I am going to divide the attention among many people each of which can give it a little attention.
There are some advantages to that, but there are a lot of distinct disadvantages.
My personal recommendation of course would be that you focus it in a few people simply to o'nsure that at least ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide coverage 800-336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 1
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 it gets some coverage, and also now you have got the point of responsibility if those people fall down.
Right now yo-"
have no responsibility to focus.
Safety Is everybody's responsibility which really means it is nobody's.
It is getting back to the way TVA operated three years ago and this is why they got into some of their difficulty.
Everybody was responsible for safe plants, but nobody would bit the bullet when it came to making decisions that affected safety.
MR. EBERSOLE:
If I Involve six systems, Bob, each system designer could say oh, that was Joe Blough who was working on the other aspect of that system. So you lost the Integral function.
MR. EBERSOLE:
And there was no spokesman at a sufficiently high level, and keep in mind this is not just a group of people. You have to put them at a level where they are heard.
You don't have anybody speaking for safety.
You have people speaking for power production and people speaking for design schedules and so forth.
Who is up there speaking for safety? Well, you say everybody.
eveyboy.MR. KANTRELL:
I don't guess I really say MR. EBERSOLE:
As a case in point, you are beating yourself to death I understand with the superheat problem and these dog houses for the steam jobs.
Am I correct?
ACE-FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
.V2-347-37(k)
Nationw ide coverage W00-33&-66"
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 226 MR. KANTRELL:
that is an issue.
MR. EBERSOLE:
All right. As I think I recall those steam valves were painfully and expensively isolated from each other, weren't they, years ago. So that presumably they are in separate physical channels of the environment?
Am I correct? They are not in a common environment or am I wrong?
MR. KANTRELL:
I am not your best person to answer that.
MR. EBERSOLE:
Anyway, I was going to say you can kill yourself on Individual channelized invulnerability to the environmental effects on those valves and try to fix them up so that they are environmentally qualified for the superheat, but It doesn't really matter because they are going to be blown away with the physical violence of whatever event you are talking about anyway. So you are knocking ourself out and doing no good at all.
It is a system interaction problem again. You kill yourself on the environmental impact, but your cause is lost by the physical violence of a hypothetical explosion.
MR. KANTRELL:
This has been looked at very deeply, and there is a level of separation in those and somebody here can be speak to it, if you want to, better than I can.
MR. EBERSOLE:
You imply they may be commonly ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-7-3700 Nationwide ('ocrage 00-336-6646
00000101 arys imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 0
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 connected by virtue of trying to kill the superheat issue.
MR. KANTRELL:
I think there is a limited number of events that there is a problem for, but they are real events.
MR. EBERSOLE:
I see.
MR. KANTRELL:
I would suggest that probably the scenario you are laying out may not be quite accurate for the analysis and problem we have got.
MR. EBERSOLE:
You recall also, Bob, that Sequoyah is that unique plant that has to suffer a hypothetical 40 foot flool level.
MR. KANTRELL:
Yes, you discussed that.
(Laughter.)
MR. EBERSOLE:
I recall there there were numerous issues about whether you were entitled to flood your cabling system at 40 year intervals, let's say, and hoped that they all worked. In the meantime there has come up the thesis that fire protection systems may coincidentally flood all your cables anyway if they are not seismically qualified.
This involves then a kind of policy you must make of do I in fact believe cables over the life of the plant can take a one-time submersion after they have been hot and oxidized and thoroughly aged over that interval of time.
Have you taken a position on that?
MR. KANTRELL:
I don't know.
AcE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide ('overage 800-336-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 MR. EBERSOLE:
It is kind of a central Issue.
MR. KANTRELL:
I think I know, but I would not want to give you that answer.
MR. EBERSOLE:
Well, somebody else will be looking at it.
That Is my example.
MR. WYLIE:
Maybe we have got answers and maybe we haven't, but we are certainly not moving forward.
(Laughter.)
MR. GRIDLEY:
I would like to try one more time since I started this conversation, and I will just try one more time and stop.
Where is safety placed in the new organization. I still say that I see it very clearly on site being vested in the plant staff and the Plant Operating Review CommittPe.
That is on site, and the Independent Safety Engineering Group, which will be on site.
So on site you have safety placed in those organizations.
Offslte you have gc't the Safety Review Board, the Nuclear Safety Review Board. Ar4 at the corporate level you have the Nuclear Management Review Group. There to me is where safety in TVA is being placed, and they can draw on the resources of Engineering, QA and Licensing.
That is the way I see it, and I don't know of any other way to answer it, and I will stop there.
MR. KANTRELL:
And I'll stop.
ACE-FEDP' \\I. REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37W Nationwide Co erage 800-33-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 229 (Laughter.)
MR. WYLIE:
I think that is a good place to stop and maybe we can proceed with the next subject.
MR. GRIDLEY:
I guess if we get back on the agenda then, we want to hear from Mr. Sliger on employee concerns, or Mr. Denise, whoever is first.
MR. DENISE:
My name is Dick Denise. I am Assistant to the Manager of Nuclear Power. My current assignment is as Manager of the Watts Bar Employee Concern Task Group.
(Slide.)
We are going to talk about two employee concern programs today. We loosely refer to one of them &.i the Watts Bar Special Program, and I say we loosely refer to it because it encompasses much more than Watts Bar, and the new TVA Employee Concern Program which Mr. Sliger will talk to you about.
(Slide.)
The Watts Bar Special Program has a limited life.
Its objective is to resolve the employee concerns and the surrounding issues of the employees and the root causes of the employee concerns that occurred prior to February the 1st, 1986.
The new Employee Concern Program Is a program which began on February lst, 1986 and Is continuing.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-34'-3700 Nationwide ('oerage 800-336-6646
00000101 Omarys lmans 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 230 on the employee concern task group we have about 300 people working. Then of those people report to me as the Manager. We are located principally at the Watts Bar site.
If you wish, I will show you the organization chart, but I didn't put it In your package.
(Slide.)
The Watts Bar Special Program Is a culmination of a few things that started back in 1981 with TVA policies, Board policies that said if you have a concern you have a right and obligation to report it and to be treated fairly and not to have reprisal actions taken against you and a lot of those things.
There were surveys done in 1984 and 1985 that indicated that perhaps everything wasn't working as it should.
Then in the spring of 1985 the NRC Informed TVA that they had received some concerns from employees, and one of the concerns was the employees were afraid to report the concerns.
And if the concerns weren't reported, then TVA management would be aware of them.
And If they weren't aware of them, they wouldn't take corrective action. And if they didn't take corrective action, then the public health and safety might be endangered and you fellows had better do something about that situation.
So in the spring, and that is in April, but really ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nat ionwide Co~ cragc 800336-6646
- 00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0
25 231 became effective In May, TVA began a program called the Watts Bar Special Program to obtain employee concerns.
And because of the signals given from many sources, TVA adopted a process of using an independent contractor to obtain employee concerns on a confidential basis.
That organization that TVA hired to do that job Is known as Quality Technology Company. Following the obtaining of employee concerns, and I don't mean when the stack was complete, but as they were obtained, QTC, that is Quality Technology Company and the NSRS began to Investigate those concerns to identify corrective actions for those Sconcerns and basically completed Phase I and a piece of Phase II.
Now Phase I was the identification of the concerns, and in order to identify those concerns QTC conducted over 4800 interviews of TVA personnel.
And in addition to what I refer to as a initial Interviews, some 4,800, they conducted almost a thousand exit interviews and received almcst 400 phone calls with concerns, that Is what we refer to as hot line callr, and received some lesser number of mailing concerns.
So we had a mechanism to receive concerns by planned program scheduled interviews, exit interviews, walk In interviews, hot line calls and mail in your concern, and that was over 5,800 interviews.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37(X)
Nationw idc coneragc 900-33&6646
00000101
. ary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 Within Phase I there was also investigation, as I mentioned, by the Nuclear Safety Review Staff and QTC, and they investigated about 18 percent of the concerns, wrote investigation reports, identified recommended corrective actions, and some of those corrective actions were implemented at the time and some of them planned in the future.
But In the spring of this year, and more precisely February, and that is not quite the spring, we entered Phase II.
MR. CARBON:
Excuse me. You said they investigated 18 percent.
Did they conclude that 82 percent were of no merit, or what does that mean?
MR. DENISE:
Max, I can't give you a real good statistic on that, but let me try to surround it with a feeling.
Of the ones they investigated, we called about half of them substantiated. Now substantiated is not a very good description, but it is only one word.
Substantiated meant that the facts expressed were true.
It didn't mean that anything was wrong. A very small number of the Investigations resulted in necessary hardware corrective action, less than 100.
There may be more out there. We are not finished yet.
But about 50 percent of approximately 1200 investigations found that the facts expressed by the employee were correct.
They did not ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700)
Nationwide (Coverage 800-330-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 0
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 substantiate that the concern that there was a safety problem was substantiated.
YR. CARBON:
But they looked at all 5800 and eliminated some feeling that they were unimportant or not substantiated?
MR. DENISE:
No, sir, and I should go Into a little bit more detail on that for you. Basically upon receipt of the concern from the employee, our contractor produced a short statement of what the concern was. That is the eit'er the famous or the infamous "K" Form. That form had on it a categorization of whether the concern was perceived to be safety related or not.
No concern was discarded as unimportant or unworthy. All of them were captured and all of them were stated and they were all categorized as safety related or not, and they were In fact all assigned to some organization for investigation and resolution.
The people responsible for investigation included TVA personnel not only in the NSRS but also in the Office of Employee Relations and the Office of the General Counsel ut that time and other parties in TVA.
Here is the concera. We can't tell you who the person is and we don't want you to go find out who the person is, but go deal with this concern. And It covered every aspect of human endeavor on nuclear power plants that ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
02-347-17(
Nationwide Coverage 8(U33&6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 O
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 you can think of, and I will get into a little bit more on that.
But they were categorized as safety related or not.
Chiefly, the NSRS and QTC focused on employee concerns which were peiceived to be related to safety.
There was an additional element, so I will cover It for corpleteness, and that is a category of concerns which were labeled Intimidation and harassment. That category had an extremely narrow definition as developed by the Office of the General Counsel and by QTC, and that definition was that it Involved a protected activity under Section 210 of the Energy Reorganization Act and it Involved adverse action taken as a consequence of performing that protected activity.
Because of those kinds of constrained definitions, 109 cases were classified as intimidation and harassment.
Those were assigned at that time for investigation by the Office of the General Counsel. The agent for investigation was Quality Technology Company.
And just again for bnmp aore -ompleteness, out of the 109 cases, 70 cases were brought to the completed investigation stage by QTC.
Those have been delivered to the Office of the General Counsel and I think by today we have received about 42 completed investigations from QTC as overviewed by the Office of the General Counsel transmitted to either the Office of Nuclear Power or another ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-370 NationwideCoverage 800-336-6646
00000101
.mary.
lmans 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 organizational element in TVA for corrective action.
I do not know whether we have received anything in the past week which Is different, but up until last week I was not aware of more than one case out of the 70 that were investigated that there was any substantiation of intimidation and harassment.
I am going to be careful and say one case. There were actually three entries in that case, but all the entries involved the same person and the same event.
So that Is just a little calibration point, and again that category covers a lot of things.
At any rate, In February of this year we began to see some signs that we weren't really doing everything that we wanted to do, and so we entered Phase II which had the objective of resolution of the substantiated problems and generic treatment of Issues at other sites.
Generic treatment is a complex subject. When we have something that is generic to another site, we really that it is identified at one site and our evaluation of that concern says it could also be at another site even though the employee when he expressed the concern didn't say so.
A simply example. An employee expressed a concern that the anchor bolts, and this type was referred to as red heads, for the reactor coolant pump drain line at the Watts Bar plant should have been three-quarters of an inch in diameter and they were three-eighths.
So his concern was I ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
2021-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-666
.00000101 mary. lmans 1
2 3
4 5
6 0
236 don't think these things are large enough.
That was a site specific concern.
In the review of that particular concern we simply said we don't know yet if the anchor bolts are too small at Watts Bar, but If they are too small at Watts Bar, then they might be too small at Sequoyah and Bellefonte and we wouldn't have had exactly the same configuration at Browns Ferry.
So we generically referred that concern to the other sites. Are your anchor bolts all right? Are they pe, design? Are they per construction drawing?
So that is generally referred to another site.
Now there is another generic referral and that is if the anchor bolts in the z-eactor coolant pump drain line are too small, then maybe there are a lot of anchor bolts out there in a lot of other systems that are too small, and that is a generic spreading at that particular plant.
So there are really two generics.
Out of that generic review we identified about 400 Items that were given at Watts Bar that potentially applied to Sequoyah and about 350 for each of Bellefonte and Browns Ferry plants.
Now I have been asked not to give you a bunch of numbers.
So we don't worry about what numbers mean.
But let me say this, and I forgot to say It earlier.
I mentioned that there had been 5,800 total interviews.
We ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide coverage 8003366
00000101
.maryeimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12
- 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 were able to identify 5,090 concerns out of those interviews arising from 1,860 people.
We probably are going to get some more concerns out of those files when the NRC completes their review. So the count will probably go up by some few hundred.
But out of the 5,090 concerns, about 2,100 are safety related, and I will go over some more of that.
I mentioned 109 being Intimidation and harassment according to the definition we used. About 450 were various forms of misconduct or wrongdoing, and I will cover that If you wish to.
(Slide.)
As we continue with Phase II with timely resolution of the concerns, we put emphasis on Identifying the root cause and the applicability to other plants in getting proper corrective action and we will produce some high quality technical reviews. There will be an independent overview, and I will cover that in a second.
Formal procedures.
our formal procedures Include QA overview, QA audit of all of our activities and they have done one of those and are soon going to start another one, and effective close-out reports. We will produce reports which say he e are other concerns and here Is their resolution.
But It Is Important to recognize that one of the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nat ion widc Coverage 800-336-666
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
10 11 12 0
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 aspects that we became concerned about In Phase I, and Phase I Is characterized by investigations on an Individual concern basis that fits the individual concern for the most part.
I won't say it is totally that way. There was some generic messages. Doing It that way was like putting together a jigsaw puzzle upside down.
Even if you found where the pieces fitted together, you won't know what the picture was.
So we adopted a different approach and we grouped and collected and categorized those concerns.
Let me just pause and mention our independent overview. We have a senior review panel, the SRP, composed of Mike Bender, Dan Garland, Jim Dunford and Joe Lavallie who overview our activities for Mr. White.
They don't work for me.
They work for him, but they watch what we are doing.
(Slide.)
As we started the program, our main focus was on the first line, the Watts Bar Special Program concerns. So we had as our resource for investigation and resolution 5,090 concerns and about 1,200 completed investigations.
We began to take actions to broaden our perspective and to augment our understanding of what the Issues might be and to settle a lot of surrounding Issues.
So we took under our wing something called Stone and Webster systematic analysis Items and simply a 16-month study of ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800336-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 most external correspondence written to TVA by NRC, INPO and others saying something critical about the TVA program. We thought what other people said might bear some resemblance to what our own employees said. So we swept that into our perspective, into our data base and into our plans for resolution. There are about 860 such line Item entries, but if you do a real good beam count you will get at least that many items that we have to deal with.
Then there were another set recently added called NSRS classical recommendations, and they are simply reports prepared by the Nuclear Safety Review Staff which included findings and recommendations with at this point 158 not yet closed. So we have taken those under our wing with the assignment to resolve them.
MR. CARBON: Why classical?
MR. DENISE:
I can't tell you who coined that phrase. I would have preferred traditional, but classical was simply spoken one day and it sounded like a good word.
It was those reports prepared by the NSRS, not matter what the stimulus for their generation, that preceded the Employee Concerns Special Program at Watts Bar Involving QTC, which developed at lot of stimuli for action.
Then during the period of Novz-h'- 1985 until the 1st of February 1986 the NSRS had a site rep at each plant, at each TVA location, and those site reps received 102 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37(0 Nationwide coverage 800-336-6646
00000101 marysimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 240 employee concerns. They didn't Investigate them and they didn't resolve them and they gave them to us.
Then from the period of June 1985 through February 1st of 1986 TVA had what we called the Old Employee Concern Program.
It was a line organization program which was to receive concerns from employees and to investigate them and resolve them, and there were 264 of those. So we have taken those under our wing.
And then but not least, there are some NRC, what we call NRC allegations. They are concerns received by the NRC that they have passed on to us and we have put those under our program.
So when I add those ill up I get about 6,576 items to resolve.
(Slide.)
So here is what we have done. We have categorized these concerns into nine categories. As you can see there Is construction, engineering, material control, management and personnel, operations, industrial safety, welding, QA/QC Items and harassment Intimidation/wrong-doing.
We had a concern categorization committee do that for us. I believe it will stand the test of time that almost everything can fit in one of those categories. Then I appointed a task group head or concern evaluation group head for each one of those categories and gave them their ACE-FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
.00000101 mary. imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 i8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 load of work.
The very largest group of concerns Is In management and personnel. Over 2,000 of the total concerns out of 5,090 are In management and personnel, and the embody equal pay for equal work, veterans preferences, lay-oft preferences, et cetera, everything In personnel that you can think of.
We have 45a of them In construction, and these are construction issues, 300 or so in engineering, a very small number, less than 100 In material control, almost 500 In affecting operational aspects, and another important element, Industrial safety where we got about 350 concerns In that, and we do, as you would expect, have a large number, 550 concerns In QA/QC and probably a total of 550 in intimidation and harassment and wrong-doing.
Now I want to clarify that we have some harassment cases in misconduct and wrong-doing, but they are not protected activities under Section 210.
They are harassment of people as they do their job, but their job isn't safety.
There is sexual harassment and a variety of other activities, mismanagement really and poor human relations, but they are spoken and Identified by employees in that sense.
We are going to produce some reports on those nine categories. We have already divided them in to 127 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS. INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-64
00000101 maryslmons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
a 9
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 242 subcategories so that we can group like things in a better way than you can group them when you just include the whole broad category.
(Slide.)
This is our flow chart.
The first section of the flow chart is acquisition of concerns. We got them from Watts Bar and Bellefonte and Sequoyah, Browns Ferry and other locations and we got some direct input from othir people, and those concerns were identified by QTC in TVA.
Then the the Employee Concern Task Group processed them by grouping them and distributing them amongst the groups and evaluated them for plarit specific, and Plant X simply means it could be Sequoyah, Browns Ferry or whatever, or they could apply to corporate activities, and we did a generic review to see if they applied in a broader sense than the employee expressed the concern.
The next stage is to investigate and report findings. We will report findings. We expect the line operational staff, engineering and so forth, to tell us what they are going to do about these concerns and what they are going to do about the findings and what they are going to do about the issues that we have identified.
The Employee Review Task Group will review and concur In or disapprove those solutions to concerns as it might be appropriate and eventually get them to the point ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-17(X)
Nationwide Coverage 800-33.6646
00000101
.marys imons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 243 where we concur with then all.
Then we will issue our final report saying here is now they are dispositioned.
At the end of the day it is our objective to not resolve the employee concerns which arose, but to have to determined the root cause of those concerns and to fix the machinery in TVA which gave rise to the concerns in the first place.
And I'm finished.
MR. WYLIE:
Questions?
MR. MICHELSON:
Yes. Would you care to comment on the QTC, and I guess they have left the scene now and are no longer a contractor of TVA; is that correct?
MR. DENISE:
No, that is not correct, rnot precisely. First of all, I don't care to comment unless you ask me, and I will if you ask me.
(Laughter.)
Secondly, they are still a contractor because we still have an existing contract and they are still performing a function for us.
The function Is much less than they previously provided.
The function that they are performing at this point for TVA Is to store the original records In Lebo, Kansas for a ;ariod of two years or longer if we decide to store them longer, and that Is their function today.
MR. MICHELSON:
No'w they have written a report to ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-33&-6646
00000101 maryeimons 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 244 TVA to wrap up their contribution to this particular effort?
MR. DENISE:
That is your characterization.
MR. MICHELSON:
Now that report I gather was rather critical of the safety at the TVA Watts Bar nuclear plant; is that correct?
MR. DENISE:
That is correct. You are speaking of an '86 --
MR. MICHELSON:
I think It essentially recommended that it ought not to ever start up, but maybe that was an overgeneralization of the media.
MR. DENISE:
Well, I think if you read the 86-page letter from Owen Thero to Chairman Dean you would get a number of messages from that, and I would rather rely on what they say directly than what somebody else Interprets it to mean.
MR. MICHELSON:
What Is going to come of all of this, or are you in a position to say yet? Are you disregarding their letter, and are you determining that there was no basis for It, or what?
MR. DENISE:
Well, not in any way are we going to disregard it. I don't have the action to answer it and I don't know if anybody will answer it, but certainly we won't disregard it. I believe that QTC is in a position to say what they think, but they are not necessarily In the position to be right about what they say.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 80-336-6