ML073200488
| ML073200488 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Callaway  |
| Issue date: | 08/09/2006 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 4-2006-026, FOIA/PA-2007-0335, NRC-1191 | |
| Download: ML073200488 (82) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Ib)(70)c Interview of
Title:
Docket Number:
4-2006-026 Location:
Columbia, Missouri Date:
Wednesday, August 9, 2006 Work Order No.:
NRC-1 191 Pages 1-81 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 Information in this record was deleted In accordance with the Freedom of infoUM1tIOP AC ftmitons poIAPA
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.9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS INTERVIEW 7---------------------- x IN THE MATTER OF:
(b)(7C)c CASE NO.
04-2006-036 (CLOSED)
Wednesday, August 9, 2006 Hawthorne Suites Inn Columbia, Missouri The above-entitled interview was conducted at 3:20 P.M.
BEFORE:
Special Agent, STEVE ROMERO NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 4
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7 8.
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S MR.
ROMERO:
For the record, this
[b)(TC)c "1
is an interview of b Do you have a middle
- initial, sir?
MR.
b)Cc MR.
ROMERO:
W.
MR.
b)(7C)c For MR.
ROMERO:
Who resides a (7c)c b)(7C)c and is employed by Callaway Nuclear Power Plant.
MR. rb)(iC)c That's correct.
MR.
ROMERO:
The date is August 9th, 2006, and the time is approximately 3:22 p.m. Central Standard Time.
b)(7C)c Mr.
could you please state and spell your full name for the record?
MR.
Sure.
My namei rb)( 7C)c I It ' S1b)(7c)c b)(7C)c MR.
ROMERO:
Okay.
What is the date of your birth and your Social Security number?
MR.
b)(TC)c b)(7C)c
[b>iTc>c MR.
ROMERO:
And your current job title?
MR. Ib)(7c)c Current job title is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 b)(7C)c 2
MR.
ROMERO:
Present at this interview 3
are Special Agent Steve Romero from the Nuclear 4
Regulatory Commission's Office of Investigation, 5
Region 4, Arlington, Texas; Mr.
who is being 6
interviewed; and Ms.
Lisa Banks, who is the court 7
reporter.
8 The purpose of this interview is to 9,
obtain facts concerning Mr.
ýb)(7C)c lallegation that 10 he was discriminated against by management at Callaway 11 Nuclear Power Plant for raising safety concerns.
12 Mr.
b)(7C)c could you please stand and raise your 13 right hand?
14 MR.
cb)(C)c Sure.
15 (Witness sworn.)
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR.
ROMERO:
17 Q.
Okay, sir. 'For the purpose of the 18 record, sir, could you please state your educational 19 background?
20 A.
I have an b)(7C)c 21 (b)(7C)c 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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training, also in 2
I attended senior reactor operator 3
license training at Callaway i)
J And I believe it 4
wabT
[freceived my senior reactor 5
operator license.
And that is my, you know, 6
professional education and my qualification for the job 7
that I hold currently.
.8 Q.
Okay, sir.
And subsequent to that, sir, 9'
you receive training on a yearly basis, sir, for your 10 job?
11 A.
Yes.
I do.
We're trained five or six 12 weeks a year, depending on the year, and have been 13 since 1990.
14 Q.
And on what topics, sir?
15 A.
Topics relating to operating a nuclear 16 reactor, specifically the Callaway nuclear reactor 17 plant.
18 Q.
- Okay, sir-.
What year were you hired at 19 Callaway, sir?
b)(7C)c 20 A.
It was 2 1 Q)(c.
22 A.
Uh-huh.
23 Q.
And what was your position at that time?
24 A.
I think my title then waqb)(7c)c 25 That's normally a position that you're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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required to hold a license for.
I was hired in from 2
outside the company based on my b)(7C)c and 3
some --
some commercial experience, with the intent of 4
putting me into a senior reactor operator license 5
program, which they did within --
I think within less 6
than a year I started an SRO license program.
7 Q.
So how long have you been in your 8
current position?
9 A.
My current position is b)(7c)c 10 think I was brought in intb)(7c)c So a little 11 over b)(7c)c 12 Q.
And what are your-responsibilities, sir, 13 in your position?
14 A.
Probably the best way to describe it is 15 that I am thefi*_(7C)c after normal working hours, 16 on weekends, holidays, et cetera.
You know, not a 17 Monday to Friday type working hours.
I)Zc)c iI 18
ýb)(c)c 19
ýb)(7C)c And all other support personnel who 20 are on site all report to me.
21 Q.
Okay.
And ultimately, what is your 22 responsibility during your shift?
What are you 23 responsible for?
The reactor, sir?
24 A.
Yes.
The safe operation of the Callaway 25 Nuclear Plant.
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Q.
Okay, sir.
Do you have anything further 2
on your educational background or --
3 A.
No.
4 Q.
your employment background?
5 A.
No.
I think that --
I think that covers 6
it.
7 Q.
Okay.
All right, sir.
I wanted to ask 8
you some questions, sir, is that you had reported to 9
the NRC, sir, that you were discriminated.
Can you 10 please elaborate on that, sir?
And can you tell us 11 what you believe to be your protected activity?
12 A.
The protected activity that I engaged in 13 was going to the Employee Concerns Program regarding a 14 concern about b)(7C)c who was then on 15 shift, Ib)(7C)c And I'massuming it's fine to use 16 names and --
17 Q.
Yes, sir.
It is.
18 A.
Okay.
19 Q.
If you use names, sir, I would 20 appreciate it for the record, sir, if you know their 21 first name, give their first name and last name and 22 what their position is at the Callaway Nuclear Power 23 Plant.
2 4 A.
7C)c 25 at the Callaway Plant.
There are six crews that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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(
1 rotate, and he was on another crew.
I was on04)(cA 2
I believe And our schedules were 3
such that we didn't see each other very often.
4
- However, I became aware of some potential problems back 5
in it would've been over the Summer of 2005.
6 And actually, the problems were pointed 7
out to me by my boss, who at the time was*)(
IIIII 8
the b)(7C)c When I first became
- b)(7C)c 9
aware that there was a problem, I was in 10 office and he asked me what I knew about the problem.
11 And since I didn't know, then he filled me in on the 12 details of what he knew about it, which was already a 13 considerable amount.
14 L
and I had a couple of conversations 15 in 2005.
The latest one that I had in 2005 with him 16 would've been around October 20th timeframe, when I 17 told him that I had concerns based on observations of 18 my own that ri1 as at work filling the b)(7C)c 19 position and was unable to stay awake.
I never saw him 20 in the control room, but I did see him at our turnover 21 meeting every day.
And he would fall asleep as soon as 22 the meeting started.
23 And I --
and I got Mr.
b)(C)c 24 attention and explained that to him, and he tend--
25 he --
I would say his reaction to that was, wow.
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thought you were going to tell me something really bad.
2 And I think his exact words were, "Oh, hell, he does 3
that in the control room, too.
I thought you were 4
going to tell me something really bad."
You know, in 5
my estimation, I had told him something --
I couldn't 6
imagine anything worse that I was going to tell him 7
about a and that he was not able to stay 8
awake at work.
9 SoI and I had that conversation.
He 10 kind of --
he kind of ignored my specific concern based 11 on my own personal observation.
In January, I went to 12 the Employee Concerns Program because I really didn't 13 know --
- well, I really couldn't think of anything else 14 to do.
b)(7c)c was not my direct supervisor.
He 15 was actually two levels up.
16 My direct supervisor was 17 he was already aware of the problem, as well.
)m 18 reported to b)(7C)c who at that time--
I believe 19 b)(7C)c Ititle at that time wasLb)(7C) C 20 b(Cc.It's since been changed tob)7) 212 22 But he was actually two levels up the 23 chain from me, and I was well aware that he knew as 24 much or more than I did about the problem.
I told him 25--
what I had seen.
He ignored it.
Based on that, I went NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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to Dave Hollabaugh.
2 Q.
Sir, let me ask you some questibns.
Did 3
you ever --
what you're stating is that you reported 4
that Mr.b)'(T)c had fallen asleep while on his 5
job?
6 A.
That is correct.
7 Q.
Did you witness him asleep on his job, 8
during his watch?
9 A.
i believe that I did.
But I want to --
10 I want to make it clear that whenever I saw it was 11 at the end of his shift.
We would come in, for 1 12 instance, at, say, quarter after 6:00 in the evening.
ý;13 Whenever he was working nights, I would come in at a 14 quarter after 6:00 in the evening.
I would walk around
`'15 the control room, observe everything I was supposed to 16 observe, sign all the information I was supposed to 17 sign first thing.
18 We would go Iacross the hall while he was b)(7C)c 19 still the) before I relieved 20 him.
And we would sit down to have a meeting.
And on 21 a daily basis, or nightly basis I guess I should say, 22 he would sit down and within 30 seconds, his eyes were 23 shut, his head was down.
And he would sit in that 24 position sometimes for a couple of minutes.
Cer--
25 easily for a minute, minute and a half.
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He would occasionally startle himself 2
and look around to see who else was in the room, if 3
anybody else besides just the shift crew.
And then, 4
within 15, 30 seconds, he'd be back down with his head 5
on his chest, eyes shut.
And I saw that on a pretty 6
much daily basis all during, the refueling outage, which 7
was one of the few times during the year that I had a 8
chance to -
on a regular basis.
Not in the control 9
room.
It was in a conference room that's outside the 10 control room.
11 Q.
Okay.
So you're stating that you 12 witnessed him asleep outside 13 A.
I believe he was asleep.
14 Q.
outside 15 A.
Outside the.ontrol rooft 16 Q.
outside the ntrol roo I just 17 want to get that straight for the record.
18 A.
That is correct.
19 Q.
Okay.
20 A.
And I told Mr.
[b)(7)c that.
I 21 described exactly that to him.
22 Q.
Okay.
- Now, let's go back to the hours b)(7c)c 23 of operation.
What time would Mr.
have come 24 in at that time?
25 A.
He would've come in at 6:15 in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 morning and Q.
A.
Q.
dismissed?
6:15 a.m.?
and he would've worked for 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />.
And then, what time would he have been A.
About a quarter 'til 7:00.
Q.
A quarter 'til 7:00.
A.
Quarter 'til 7:00, ten 'til 7:00, somewhere in that ballpark.
Q.
So you're saying 6:15 A.
No later than seven o'clock.
Q.
Okay.
6:45 and no later than 7:00 a.m.
Correct, sir?
A.
- Well, in this case, since he was working nights, it would've been 7:00 p.m.
Q.
Oh, 7:00 p.m.
I'm sorry.
A.
So that would've been --
Q.
7:00 p.m.
A.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our meetings usually ran between 15, 20 minutes at the most.
And I tried --
I'll be honest with you:
I tried to speed the meetings up because I wanted to relieve him and get him out of there.
I didn't I mean, I was uncomfortable with his condition, and I didn't --
I didn't want to delay the process.
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I wdnted to speed it up and get him out, 2
get him relieved and get him off site.
Because I 3
didn't believe he was fit for duty at that point.
And 4
I made that as clear as I can make that toF 5
ýb)(7C)c that he had to do something about it; that it 6
was a -- that I considered it a major problem.
7 Q.
Okay.
So he would've come on at 6:15 8
a.m. and been relieved at 6:45 p.m. and no later than 9
7:00 p.m.
Correct?
10 A.
That's correct.
11 Q.
For the record, I had stated a.m.
So 12 I'm changing that t.o p.m.
13 A.
Uh-huh.
14 Q.
And you would only see him outside the 15 control --
you personally witnessed him while he was 16 outside the control room, in a conference room --
17 A.
That's correct.
18 Q.
a meeting to discuss what occurred 19 that night.
20 A.
To --
yeah.
Turn over items from one 21 shift to the next.
22 Q.
Okay.
Let's do this, Mr.
ob)(7C)cr 23 the record, because what's happening is this is being 24 recorded.
And what's happening is if I'm talking at 25 the same time let's once you stop talking, then NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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I'll start, or if you want to interject, just say, "I 2
want to interject" arnd-I'll stop talking.
Because that 3
way we can keep the record straight.
4 A.
It's a bad habit I have.
I'll try to --
5 Q.
Yeah.
It's okay, Sir.
6 A.
-- do better.
7 Q.
It's just, we have to be more careful 8
and cognizant based on the record.
9 A.
Right.
10 Q.
So let me go back, sir.
So you --
I 11 just want to characterize what you're saying 100 12 percent.
And that is:
You'witnessed Mr.
b)(7C)c 13 which at that time you identified as him being asleep 14 at the time of the changing of the shift, which you 15 would conduct a meeting in a conference room outside 16 the control room; is that correct, sir?
17 A.
That is correct.
18 Q.
Okay.
And the witnessing of him being 19 asleep would've been that you saw him with his eyes 20 closed and with his head down on his -- his chin down 21 on his chest.
Correct?
22 A.
That is correct.
23 Q.
Did you ever ask him, sir, "Hey, are you 24 asleep?
Or have you been sleeping?"
25 A.
No.
I did not.
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Q.
Do you know if anyone else did?
2 A.
No.
Not in my presence.
No.
3 Q.
No?
Okay.
Now 4
A.
And my basis for my statement, as much 5
as anything, would've been on his reaction.
There's 6
a --
there was at least a couple of occasions where he 7
almost fell out of his:chair, had to catch himself.
8 And he would --
like I said, he would routinely 9
- startle, raise his head up, and he would --
you 10 could --
if you watched his eyes, you could see him 11 kind of look back and forth to see if anybody else had 12 walked in the room that hasn't -- hadn't been present 13 before.
And in very short order, he was head back, 14 head down, eyes shut.
15 Q.
Who else witnessed this, sir, if you can 16 give me like three names or so that would've --
17 A.
Three names, and I'm pretty sure. these 18 individuals have already been interviewed --
but three b)(7C)c 19 names would 20 Q.
.b)(7C)c
")(7 c
b)(7C)c 21 A.
Yeah.
b)(7C)c He's a 22 He has been interviewed already.
C 23 FTC)c T
I could take a guess as to the spelling 24 of his name.
It's b)(7c)c He was also 25 a b)(7cic who worked for me for some time.
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But those would -- those would be three that I can come 2
up who would've been at a bunch of those meetings that 3
I'm talking about.
4 Q.
Did Mr.
ever mention anything to 5
you, sir, about Mr.
b)(7C)c being asleep?
6 A.
He and I had --
I know we had some 7
conversations, and I don't remember specifics.
I had 8
told Ithat I was I do remember telling hat I 9
had been to talk to --
talk to b)(Tc)c about the 10 situation.
And we did talk abo'ut it on a number of 11 occasions.
I don't remember the specifics, other than 12 me telling that I was going to my boss or my boss's 13 boss to talk to --
14 Q.
But did Mr.
come to you and 15 state, you know, "What's wrong with him?
Why is he 16 asleep?"
Did he ever do that?
Do you recall?
17 A.
Yes.
I'm sure that he did, but I don't 18 recall a date and time.
I mean, there were comments 19 that were made, that this is a problem.
I don't 20 remember how many times.
21 Q.
How about Mr Did he ever bring 22 that up to your attention?
23 A.
To the best of my memory, yes, he also 24 brought it to my attention.
25 Q.
Do you know when?
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A.
I do not know a date or a time.
Like I 2
said, we had --
we had conversations after we would 3
relieve the watch back in the control room.
Never 4
at --
never across the hall at the meeting.
And I 5
don't remember specifically a day or a time.
6 I mean, it was a refueling.
Those guys 7
were very busy, and I was very busy.
I mean, they had 8
things that they were responsible to do.
But the topic 9
did come up and it was discussed.
I don't remember how 10 many times or when.
11 Q.
How about b)(7C)c Is that 12 what you said?
(7c)c b)(7C)c d
13 A.
I probably did talk to did 14 talk to me, but I couldn't tell you how many times.
15 Q.
Or when?.
16 A.
Or when.
That's correct.
I mean, I can 17 give you a date range.
It would've been in late 18 September to October of 2005.
But as far as which 19 nights or how many times or that kind of stuff --
20 Q.,
Okay.
- Now, let's go back to you had 21 reported to Mr.. b)(7C)c is that his --
is that 22 correct?
23 A.
b)(7c)c That is correct.
24 Q.
that you had reported to him 25 specifically that you felt that Mr.
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falling asleep on his watch and that he wasn't fit for 2
duty?
3
'A.
That is true.
And based on my knowledge 4
of what b)(7C)c 5
(b)(7C)c 6
7 8
9 10 upper management.
11 In other words,r(?c~ c 12 Li7c~4j needed to do something about b)(7c)c 13 They did not consider him to be fit for duty.
Their 14 concern was for their jobs.
They were concerned that 15 someone would walk into the 'control room, which is back 16 b
office, and seea, asleep, and that the whole 17 crew was going to get fired because he had fallen 18 asleep somehow and they didn't see it, and they weren't 19 back there to keep him awake.
And they --
andrýý9 20 told me about all that information back in the July 21 timeframe.
22 Q.
Okay.
When did you first bring this 23 what you felt with Mr. f)(7C)c being a problem as far 24 as staying awake?
When did you first bring that to the 25 attention of Mr.
rb)(7C)c or Mr.
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3 4
.5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 A.
The first time that I saw something, the first time that I brought it to his attention was in October.
Q.
October.
A.
That is correct.
- Now, I had asked I had a number of conversations with/M over the summer.
Qb)(7C)c I..........
A.
b(7C)c That's correct.
Anf led me to believe that he was taking care of the problem; that everything was under control.
And as I said, my schedule was such that I almost never saw ZC at work.
So I had no day-to-day interaction with him.
I began to have day-to-day interaction with him during the late September/October timeframe.
Q.
So you brought the --
in
- October, you brought this to the attention of Mr.
b)(7C)c A.
That is correct.
Q.
And you brought it to his attention based on what you saw or what somebody told you?
A.
Based on what I saw.
Q.
Okay.
A.
That was the first the first time that I saw something, you know -- which, at that point I realized that even though I had been hearing for a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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.2 3
4 5
.6.
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 couple months from C
that the problem had been taken care of, thatil.7was doing, fine, there weren't any issues, starting September/October, it became apparent to me that that was not the case, that f
was still having problems.
And that's whenever I got it brought to=7 Iattention.
Q.
Okay.
You're going to have to clarify something, sir.
A.
Okay.
Q.
And that is:
You brought it to his attention in October, but subsequent to that, you said you had conversations with him earlier.
What I'm saying, when was it first brought up by you?
A.
In October.
Q.
It was in October?
But you said that there was some conversations two months prior to that concerning Mr.
b)(7C)c falling asleep.
A.
I can elaborate on that, if you would like me to.
Q.
Please.
A.
I was --
my crew was in training, which is in a separate building.
And I had some business to attend to in the service building.
I came over on my lunch break, from the training center to the service building. And this would've been in July.
AndfC)C-c NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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[NETERER]
saw me and asked me if I had a minute or two to 2
come talk to him.
3 And really, I didn't, but since he was 4
my boss's boss, I made time to talk to him.
It made me 5
late to get back for training, but I thought, well, it 6
must be important because he knows what I'm doing this 7
week.
So I went to his office, and he made small talk 8
for a minute or two.
And then he asked me what I knew 9
about and about problem.
10 And I had --
at the time, I had 11 absolutely no idea what he was referring to.
He didn't 12 believe me.
I told him, I said,b7c=
look at our 13 schedules.
I don't ever see I have no idea what 14 you're talking about."
He said, "You have" --
his 15 question was:
"Well, you haven't heard anything?
16 You're trying to tell me that you haven't heard 17 anything about what's going on?"
I said, "I have no 18 idea what you're talking about."
19 At that point, I guess he felt an 20 obligation to fill me in a little bit on what he knew.
21 And what he knew was that the 22 (7C 7 had been in within the --
you know, within a 23 week prior to that had been in to talk to him.
24 Q.
What's the name of that person?
25 A.
That individual is b)(7c)c NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Q.
And that is the,ý I
111 2
A.
He's the b)(7c)c 3
He was also one of the b)(7C)c on my crew.
4 And in retrospect, the reason thatJTCE~
5 thought I knew something was because one of myb)7 Z
6rb)(7c)c went to him to tell him 7
about this problem.
But the b)(7c)c or 8
b)(7c)c
- crew, not to try to make this too confusing, 9
were not comfortable themselves coming and talking to 10 b
or tob(7c)c 11 They were --
I can't ever remember a 12 time whenever workers have been reluctant to go to 13 management at Callaway, to the point where t~hey would 14 have their shop steward go talk to management about a 15 problem and request that their names be kept anonymous.
16 But --
and there were only threJC)(TC)c 17 (b)(7C)c
)crew.
They wanted to be 18 anonymous.
They didn't want any of their names used.
19 ut heywaned (7c)c
_) 7C]
19 But they wanted (7c o do his job as a b)(7C)c 20 and come tell b)(7nc) bout the problem.
21 And it was the problem that we already 22 discussed:
He was inattentive.
He was absent from the 23 control room a lot.
When he was in the control room, 24 he had difficulty staying awake.
They felt like they
- 25.
needed to baby-sit him, keep an eye on him, make sure NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1
that he wasn't falling asleep.
And they would 2
periodically walk back to his office to check and make 3
sure that he was still
- awake, you know, and that kind 4
of stuff.
5 Q.
So,
- sir, did --
Ob)(7C)c 6
A.
S was telling me all this 7
stuff based on his conversation with bC)c And he 8
wanted to know what I knew, if anything, about that.
9 And that was the conversation that we had.
And I asked 10 him then what he was doing about it, what he intended 11 to do about it, if
'he was going to takeil off shift 12 based on that.
13 Q.
What did he say?
14 A.
He told me that, no, he didn't think he 15 needed to do that.
He told me he needed to sit down 16 wit jand find out what was going on, but he didn't 17 think he would need to remove him from watch standing 18 and take him off shift.
'And I questioned him.
I told 19 him I did not think that was adequate under those 20 circumstances.
I told him I thought it would be safer 21 to remove him from watch standing based on the concern 22 and put somebody on his --
in his place for a month or 23 two months or whatever it took to figure out what was 24 going on.
25 Q.
And what did he NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1
A.
He declined to do that.
This was back 2
in July.
3 Q.
July 2005?
4 A.
July 2005.
That's correct.
5 Q.
And that's the conversation that led you 6
to believe that he had done something about it?
7 A.
That is one of the conversations.
He 8
told me that he was going to take care of it, that he 9
would talk to find out what was going on.
He 10 didn't believe he'd need to take him off shift.
I had 11 a number of other conversations between July and 12 October with one-on-one where he led me to believe 13 that everything was fine, that there weren't any 14 problems, that he had taken care of it.
You know, that 15
- _____,was doing better, that there weren't any issues.
16 Q.
Okay.
And when was that other 17 conversation?
18 A.
I could not give you an exact date and 19 time.
There was one other conversation that I didn't 20 mention.
But between July and September, on a number 21 of occasions, b(7c)c came to the control room 22 whenever I was in the control room, and when there was 23 no one else around, I would just ask him how was 24
- doing, if there were problems, if there were concerns.
25 I was told that no, there weren't any concerns.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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24 kb)(7C)cI 1
In September, I came t oA and I asked 2
him to take me off shift.
I told him my personal life 3
was suffering and it would be much better for me if I
4 was off shift.
And I was told at that time that there 5
was no way he'could get me off shift, that his top 6
priority had to get --
had to be to get 7
off of shift.
And he would not elaborate as to why he 8
needed to get b)(7c)c or why he needed to get 9
b)(7C)c off shift.
10 Q.
He didn't elaborate.
He didn't tell 11 you?
12 A.
That would've been September 10th 13 timeframe.
No.
He got aggravated that I even asked 14 him.
15 Q.
Right.
But he didn't tell you?
16 A.
That is correct.
17 Q.
Okay.
18 A.
So between July and September, we had
'19 conversations that led me to believe everything was 20 fine.
But approximately September 10th, between the 21 8th and the 12th, somewhere in that two-or three-day 22 window, I was told by YI)'7Itthat his top priority had to 23 be to get b)(7c)c off shift.
And I pointed out to 24 him on that occasion that he had at least three 25 individuals that he could put ibA -] spot.
He could NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 get s off shift.
And he-told me that that was nonsense; he had a refueling that was outage that was getting ready to start.
He needed everybody that he had for that.
But as soon as the outage was over, he had to get off shift.
When I asked him questions, he became aggravated and didn't want to talk to me.anymore about it.
Q.
Okay.
But you made your --
in October is when you brought it up.
Right?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
When you initial A.
In October.
Once I started seeingrj on a daily basis.
Q.
Right.
A.
Once I saw the condition he was in, I'
took it Q.
you didn't it to your A.
Q.
A.
Q.
But what you're saying is that they --
even know about it until Mr. b(7C)c brought attention.
That is correct.
Right.
That is So that would've been two months prior NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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26 1
to October.
Correct?
That's what you stated.
2 A.
That's correct.
3 Q.
So that would've been August of 2005, 4
approximately 5
A.
By July, already knew that there 6
was a problem.
Q.
Okay.
By July.
And he's the one that 8
asked you about it 9
A.
That's correct.
10 Q.
and you had no idea about it.
11 A:
That is correct.
12 Q.
Right.
And you assumed or you were 13 given the impression that he thought that you knew 14 because you had one of your operators that was a shop 15 steward that the operators that reported to.
Correct?
16 A.
That is correct.
17 Q.
Okay.
- Now, how come you didn't go to 18 Mr. *)§Ic) first?
Mr.(b)(7c)c iis your immediate 19 supervisor.
Correct?
20 A.
and I do not have anything that 21 remotely resembles a good working relationship.
22 Q.
All right.
23 A.
We don't.
Given my --
given my history 24 with b)(7c)c who is a --
- who, up until this 25
- happened, I considered to be a pretty good guy; I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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considered him to be ________
If I had a 2
chance to deal with versus dealing with I
3
- mean, I would always deal withb)(7C)cl And I suspect 4
probably most of the people in the operations 5
department, or a lot people in the operations 6
department did the same thing.
7 J
is much more personable, much more 8
likely to sit down and talk to you, and much less 9
likely to shoot the messenger than j is.
10 Q.
So that's the reason you went --
11 A.
'And 12 Q.
to Mr.
b)(7C)c 13 A.
And it was very easy in this case since 14 b
was the one who brought it to my attention.
It 15 was very easy for me to continue to deal withF7)(cI*
16 Now, there was one other conversation 17 that I will mention.
And I do not remember a date.
18 This would've been between July and September.
b)(7c)c 19 was in the control room.
It was in the morning.
And 20 it was just he and I in the shift manager's office.
21 And I asked him ho C)c as doing.
He told me tha 22 was doing okay.
And then, he just --
he started to 23 ramble, which he sometimes did.
He and I, as I said, 24 were friends and we would talk.
25 He told me that in May he had seen the, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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same things and had heard the same things from the Ib)(7C)c 2
training supervisors.
b)(7C)c b)(7C)c 3
n May.
And they had spent three weeks 4
in the training center studying and retaking) 5 b)(7)c until they could pass an exam.
And the training 6
supervisors, in May, told b)(7C)c the same thing, 7
which is, "We go to the classroom to sit down and talk 8
to him and his operat'ors andj is asleep almost 9
before we start talking.
We had difficulty keeping him 10 awake.
He doesn't appear to be alert.
He's not doing 11 his job."
]b)(7C)c 12 told me he had all those 13 reports in May, and he told me that he was within --
as 14 he said, "that close" to taking off shift back in
(
15 May.
So in retrospect, they knew about a problem in 16 May.
The b)(7c)c brought it to 17 their attention again in July.
And even though it was 18 the exact same problem, for whatever reason, they still 19 didn't act on it.
20 Q.
Okay.
21 A.
And again, that's information I wouldn't 22 have known about had b)(7c)c not told me about it.
23 After the fact, I had some conversations 24 over in the training center, that --
the training 25 supervisors pretty much just shook their heads and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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said, "Yeah, 4
has problems when he's over here 2
staying awake.
He sits down.
He falls asleep."
3 Q.
And what are their names?
4 A.
Names of individuals that I can recall 5
talking to --
6 Q.
I'm talking about the --
7 A.
Of trainers?
And I'm pretty confident 8
that they have been interviewed already.
But names Ib)(7C)c 9
that I recall were is now a 10 trainer again.
He was a supervisor ob('O*c
- crew, and 11 he's back over in training now.
And I've talked to 12 b)(7c)c about it.
(b)(7C)c 13 I talked to who was a 14 trainer at the time and basically swapped withb)7c 15 b)(7C)c He was a trainer. jb)(7Cc as on shift.
- Now, 16 (b)(7C)c s a trainer andJ is on shift, and they both
.17 have knowledge of it.
I talked to both of them about
- 18.
it.
So b)(7C)c is another name that comes to 19 mind who would have who would have had that 20 information.
21 Again, the only reason I found out about 22 it is because brought it my attention.
So 23 again, I know that he was aware of it in the August 24 timeframe, because he told me about it.
25 Q.
Okay.
Maybe you've answered this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20.
21 22 23 24 25 question, but I'm going to ask you again, sir.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Was there anybody else that came to you and told you about Mr.b)IT I
'A that he was falling asleep on his watch?
A.
I do not remember the exact timeframe.
Q.
Who was it and --
A.
It would've b)(7C)c and I don't remember the exact timeframe.
Butb7 rb)(7C)c
[b)(7C)c who made the comment that he walked into the control room one day when he was an extraEb)(7)c I
b)(7)c to conduct some business in the control room.
He walked in and saw back in the shift manager's office, you know, with his head down, eyes shut, the way I described him before, for some time period.
And I believe b)(C)c told me that he did ask him, "Hey, what are.you doing?
Are you okay?"
- And, you know, he snapped to, after some period of watching him.
Q.
Can you approximately tell me when he told you that?
A.
He told me Q.
He told you and when that occurred --
A.
He told me about it in February.
And I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 1
believe what he told me is that it had happened the 2
prior year.
He told me in February of 2006, ballpark.
3 It was after[
had been taken off shift.
And I 4
believe what he told me is it had been in the prior 5
year, in 2005.
At that point, (
had already been 6
removed from shift.
7 Q.
What's his name again, sir?
What 8
A.
b)(7C)c
- Again, I know he is 9
on the list, and I am pretty sure he's been 10 interviewed.
Because I gave that information to ZDavej 11 Hollabaugh as well.
So I know Ameren checked it
- out, 12 and I'm pretty sure that you guys have already 13 interviewe dj also.
14 Q.
Okay.
All right, sir.
Can you tell 15 me --
which we've already covered some of this, sir.
16 How do you know that management had knowledge --
17 A.
I had management knowledge -- or know 18 that management had knowledge of the problem because 19
[b)(7C)c discussed it with me.
- Now, I think 20 what are you asking me here?
Does management know that 21 I was involved in going to Employee Concerns?
22 Q.
No.
When you initially brought your 23 claim up, did they have knowledge that you were doing 24 that?
25 A.
Yeah.
b)C)c has knowledge NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1l because I went to him personally and talked tb him 2
about it.
3 Q.
And when did you do that?
Which we've 4
already covered it on that first part, but if you can 5
for the record --
6 A.
That's correct.
7 Q.
When would it have been, approximately?
8 A.
I talked to him in July, during my 9
training week.
I also talked to him several times in 10 August.
About September 10th I talked to him.
October 11 20th, approximately, I talked to him again about it.
12 And then, other conversations that he and I have had 13 about this.
14 I went to ;Davej Hollabaugh in late 15 January, told him what I knew.
About January 31st,Z 16 was removed from shift.
January 31st, February 1st, 17 somewhere in that timeframe.
And 4Dav ] --
I was in the 18 control room that day, and came to the 19 control room to talk to me.
And this was within --
20 within a few hours of everyone being made aware that 21 had been removed from watch standing.
22 And IDave" and I had a conversation.
And 23 I had the impression then that
'yDavei/was on a fishing 24 trip to see how much I was willing to talk about.
- 25.
Because Dave Hollabaugh had gone to upper management; NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 1
upper management had come to b)(Cc 2
and said, "You guys have to do something now.
This is 3
what's been going on."
[b)(7C)c 4
came to the control room right 5
afterb)(7c)c was removed from shift and made the comment 6
that, "Gosh, I had no idea that this was that this 7
was going on.
I had no idea that this was such a big 8
problem.
If only somebody had come to us and talked" 9
and I just looked at him.
And I said, b)(7c)c you 10 and I have discussed this a number of times."
And I 11 could see the light bulb coming on, that, you know, 12 obviously --
I remember the conversation and he 13 should've remembered the conversations that we had.
14 And I reminded him of some of the dates 15 and conversations that he and I had had.
And he was 16 kind of I could see that he knew that I was on the 17 list of people that had talked to Dave Hollabaugh.
18 There was a list of about eight people that Dave 19 Hollabaugh had interviewed.
I was one of them.
And he 20 and I discussed it.
21 I said, you and I both know that 22 you knew.
I talked to you about it.
I know tha b)(7c)c 23 b)(7C)c talked to you about it.
You know, this has 24 been going on for a long time.
You can't sit there and 25 tell me that you didn't know."
And he said, "Well, I
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34 1
wish that whoever had come to talk to me had been more 2
persistent and had tried harder to get me to understand 3
that this was a problem."
Or something to that effect.
4 And again, I told him, "We talked about 5
i ou and I talked about it on a number of 6
occasions.
And I know 7talked to you about it a
7 couple of times, and also talked to b)(7)c" about 8
it."
And I was not buying that they didn't know, if 9
only somebody would've come and told --
"If only one of 10 you guys had come and told me."
11 We had that conversation then.
He and I 12 had another conversation in March, after I found out.
13 Q.
When was that other conversation you 14 were talkingabout?
Before you move on, what was the 15 time period of that, when he came back and he was on a 16 fishing expedition?
17 A.
That would've been about February 1st.
18 Q.
February 1st, 2005?
19 A.
And if I had --
20 Q.
2006?
21 A.
2006.
If I had a calendar, I could 22 pick --
I could tell you what day it was because it 23 was --
I mean, I know which specific day shifts it was.
24 It would've been the first week of February.
25 Q.
First week of February.
Let me take a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 1
look here.
2 A.
That's '99.
It would've been the first 3
week in February.
4 Q.
That's fine.
That's good enough.
5 A.
Approximately.
6 Q.
That's good enough.
7 A.
Sorry.
And then, approximately March --
8 March 10th timeframe, b)(7C)Cl ndI had another 9
conversation whenever I found out that' I was not 10 getting a raise or a bonus.
And I pointed out to him 11 then that he had to have known that I was the one who 12 went to Employee Concerns.
13 Again, he pretended that he didn't know, 14 but he had to have known that it was either me or one 15 other individual.
And I'm pretty confident, based on 16 our conversation February 1st --
I mean, I didn't tell 17 him I'm the one that went to Dave Hollabaugh, but it 18 couldn't have been any more obvious, as I recounted all 19 the times that he and I had talked about 20 Q.
Was there any times that any of this was 21 documented, sir, on an e-mail or anything like that?
22 A.
No.
Those -- those were not documented.
23 The one time that might have been documented, I had a 24 phone conversation with Dave Hollabaugh right after 25 b)(7C)c had come to the control room on a fishi g NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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trip.
2 Q.
What 3
A.
And--
4 Q.
What month and year would that have 5
been?
6 A.
It would've been February of 2006, right 7
after came to the control room,*
And I told b)(7C)c 8
I said, "There's no doubt in my mind that ýDave/
9 Hollabaugh"..
I told him that there was no doubt in my 10 mind that b)(7c knew that I was the one that 11 went to him.
12
-Dave Hollabaugh and I had a similar 13 conversation to the one that you and I had earlier 14
- about, "Well, we try to protect identities as much as 15 we can.
But at some point, it's going to become 16 obvious that --
it may become obvious that you are the 17 one that came and talked to me."
He said, "And I can't 18 guarantee you confidentiality, you know, when that 19 happens, because you've had prior conversations with 20 all these individuals.
They're going to remember who 21 talked to who, when."
22 And when I talked to,[ŽDave),
he needed me 23 to sign a statement.
And while I was talking to him on 24 the phone, I said, "You know, I just had a conversation 25 with b)(7C)c There's no. doubt in my mind that he NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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37 1
knows that I'm the one who came to Employee Concerns."
2 And Dave Hollabaugh's reaction was, "Well, you know, 3
I'm not the one that told him."
4 And I agreed with him.
I said, "He 5
knows that he and I have talked, and we talked again a 6
couple days ago.
And he knows that --
he knows based 7
on the information that's in your report and in the 8
conversations that we --
he and I had that it had to be 9
me that came to him."
10 And he acknowledged that.
But he did 11 point out that it wasn't due to a breach of 12 confidentiality on his part that b)(7c)c would' e
13 found out that information.
And I agreed with him.
It 14 wasn't anything that Dave Hollabaugh did.
15 Q.
Okay.
16 A.
As far as any other documentation, any 17 conversations that I had withrb)(7C)c regarding 18 b)(7c)c they only happened if it was just/
19 and I in a room, just the two of us.
And it was 20 just --
everything was verbal.
There was nothing 21 written down.
22 Q.
You said there might have been one.
Can 23 you get a copy?
24 A.
I will --
it would not surprise me if 25 Dave.
Hollabaugh didn't document the conversation that I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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had with him on the phone, just due to the nature of 2
his job.
But again, that would've been the first week 3
of February.
4 Q.
So 5
A.
Within four or five days of our
/
6 conversation in the control room.
7 Q.
So I can summarize it based on what 8
you.ve told me now, that management was well aware 9
of --
matter of fact, management was the ones that made 10 you aware of Mr. b)(7c)c having a problem with 11 sleeping on his shift.
Correct?
12 A.
That is correct.
13 Q.
You didn't know until they --
14 Mr.
brought it to your attention.
15 A.
That is correct.
16 Q.
And then, subsequent to that, in October 17 is when you witnessed it and then brought it to his 18 attention.
19 A.
That is also correct.
20 Q.
Right?
But between July and October, 21 you had numerous can you tell me approximately how 22 many conversations with Mr.
(7c)c or Mr.
or(7C)c 23 whoever in management?
24 A.
I would guess about five conversations 25 with'b)(7c)c regarding b)(7c)c during that timeframE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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between the end of July and, say, September 10th, 2
probably five conversations.
And then, probably the 3
next time I talked to [Dave] about it would've been 4
October 20th.
5 Q.
Okay.
So when you Mr.
Dave 6
Hollabaugh, he was the Employee Concerns 7
A.
He's the Employee Concerns 8
Q.
coordinator?
9 A.
That's correct.
10 Q.
Right?
And when you. brought it to his 11 attention, he, took your information down and then 12 initiated an investigation.
Correct?
13 A.
That is correct.
14 Q.
So there was an internal investigation 15 done concerning your allegation.
16 A.
That is correct.
17 Q.
Do you know what the outcome was on that 18 investigation, sir?
19 A.
Weil, the outcome was, within about --
20 within a week, prior to b)(7C)c (7Cjc next scheduled 21 watch in the control room, he was removed from watch 22 standing.
When I talked to 'Dave' Hollabaugh in late 23 January, he had
)(7c) shift schedule out in front of 24 him.
And he said, "Okay.
So really, I have this --
25 this amount of time here to do some interviews and to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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do some fact-finding before b)(7C)c will be back to stand.
2 watch again."
And basically, that was what he was 3
looking at.
4 Andbnc)c ext watch would've been 5
January 31st, February 1st, around that timeframe.
So 6
he conducted seven or eight interviews, went to upper 7
management.
He being.Dave Hollabaugh.
And then, upper 8
management went to b)(7C)c and ab)(C)c a nd 9
said, "You have to remove rom the control room."
10 So that all transpired within a week or so.
11 Q.
Did they submit something to you in 12 writing on what they took in as far as your 13 allegation --
14 A.
They --
15 Q.
and then what the findings were?
16 A.
No.
They gave me a piece of paper they 17 basically typed up saying, "This is what you told us."
18 And I was not told what the results of any of the other 19 interviews were with any of the other individuals.
20 Q.
Well, not --
21 A.
I did ask, "What else do you know?
Or 22 what else are you going to do?"
23 Q.
Right.
Let me characterize that 24 correctly, sir.
And that was:
Did they tell you what 25 the findings of the investigation --
not necessarily
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what each person told them, but what the outcome of the 2
investigation was?
3 A.
The outcome of the investigation was 4
that would not be standing watch until they did a
\\5 medical evaluation and some other things.
6 Q.
And that's what Mr.
Dave Hollabaugh told 7
you?
8 A.
That was verbal.
That's correct.
9 Q.
But he told you that.
Correct?
10 A.
He did tell me that.
And by that --
by 11 the time I saw that and by the time I talked to DavE 12 Hollabaugh, I had already been told by my management 13 that was being removed from watch standing duties.
14 Q.
Okay.
Mr.
Hollabaugh, when did he tell 15 you that?
When did he tell you that?
16 A.
It would've been right after right 17 after --
within a few days of that.
Within a few days 18 of me finding out that b)(7C)c was removed from watch 19 standing, I found out from Dave. Hollabaugh that the 20 results werej was being removed from watch standing.
21 Q.
What's the month and year, 22 approximately?
23 A.
I'm sorry.
February 2006.
24 Q.
Okay.
25 A.
Approximately February 1st.
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Q.
But then you found out --
you were told b)(7C)c 2
first by your own management, Mr.
3 A.
That's correct.
4 Q.'
before you found out from 5
Mr.
Hollabaugh.
Correct?
6 A.
That is correct.
7 Q.
And that would've been a few days before 8
Mr.
Hollabaugh, which would've been February, 9
approximately, of 2006.
10 A.
February 3rd or 4th or somewhere in that 11 ballpark.
12 Q.
Of 2006.
13 A.
2006.
That is correct.
14 Q.
Okay.
- Now, one more thing, sir, before 15 we move on.
And did anybody ever tell you that they --
16 and if they did, you tell me who it was and when b)(7C)c 17 approximately, that they saw Mr.
asleep inside 18 the control room?
19 A.
No.
I have never had anyone tell me 20 that they saw b)(7c)c actually asleep\\in the 21 control room.
22 Q.
Okay.
23 A.
- Now, I have had people tell me that, you 24
- know, "Well, we look back there and he's -- his head is 25 nodding up and down.
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fall asleep."
People since the investigation 2
started in January/February timeframe, people have been 3
very, very reluctant --
been very, very careful about 4
what they --
what they have said.
5 Prior to that time, people had been more 6
likely to have --
to be more open, let's put it that 7
way.
8 Q.
All right.
And what I'm getting at, 9
sir, and what's important here is that a person can i0 shut their eyes and be awake.
Correct?
11 A.
Yes.
12 Q.
And that sort of thing.
13 A.
Yes.
14 Q.
Or even put their chin down with their 15 eyes closed and still be awake.
I mean, you don't know 16 they're asleep until you go and go a little bit 17 further.
Do you agree with that, sir?
18 A.
I understand what you're saying.
But it 19 is in an operations department procedures --
procedure 20 that watch standers will not place themselves in a 21 position where it looks like they might be asleep or 22 they might be inattentive to their duties.
23 Q.
All right.
24 A.
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a position where somebody that's observing you might 2
believe that had fallen asleep.
3 Q.
And I'm not saying that, sir.
I'm just 4
saying that that's what I'm trying to get to of someone 5
else told you that they had witnessed --
6 A.
Right.
7 Q.
Mr asleep.
That's what I'm 8
saying.
9 A.
That is correct.
10 Q.
I'm trying to see how their --
and what 12 parameters do they have as far as telling someone that 12 a person's asleep.
That's what I was getting at.
13 A.
Right.
14 Q.
- And, I guess, people's parameters at 15 that time were more clearly defined as they are now.
16 A.
No.
Right after this right after the 17 investigation started, right after b)(7C)c was 18 removed from-watch, there was.a meeting with all the 19 shift managers.
20 Q.
Can you name them, please, for the 21 record, sir?
22 A.
I'll name the ones that I can remember.
23 (b)(ICIcI1 as there.
I was there.
)(7C)c was 24 there.
b()cwas there. t b)7~
was there.
25 F(CcI believe -- ý
)7~
was there.
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b)(7C)c was there.
b)(7C)c was there.
The 2
whatever his title is.
I call him the*IciIIII 3
1 think he's the 11b)(7C)c Ludwig.
4 Thibault, who is actually an INPO employee, was there.
5 And during that meeting, at least four b*)(7c)c 6
or five
- times, used the expression 7
"sleeping on watch" or "sleeping in the control room"!'
8 to describe behavior.
And every time --
every 9
time the word sleep came out of his mouth, Thibault, 10 whose --
I think his actual name is Ludwig Thibault 11 said, "He was inattentive.
He was never asleep.
He 12 was inattentive."
13 And ever since then, every time I've 14 heard anybody in a management position discuss it, it 15 has been inattentiveness to duties.
Nobody --
nobody 16 since February of 2006, in a management capacity will 17 use the word sleeping.
They all refer to it as he was 18 inattentive.
19 Q.
And that's what management told all the 20 supervisors?
21 A.
That's what they told all of us.
We had 22 a 5:30 in the morning meeting and we were --
we were 23 all told why was taken off watch, and what a big 24 deal it would be if it had been on the headline of the 25 Post Dispatch that the b)(7c)c Cat the Callaway NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Plant was asleep on watch.
And every time sleep was 2
- used, it was inattentive --
no, no, he was not asleep.
3 He was never asleep.
He was inattentive.
But he was 4
never asleep.
5 Q.
All right.
Mr.[ b)(7c)c can you tell 6
me what your adverse action was that was taken against 7
you which you believe to be the adverse -- the action 8
that occurred against you for raising your safety 9
concern?
10 A.
Yeah.
The ad-- the adverse action --
11 I'll have to explain a little bit to you as far as 12 background information as to how the bonus system, as
- 13.
described to all Ameren employees, was supposed to 14 work.
15 And the way it was explained to us last 16
- year, in
- 2005, was 17 Q.
When you say explained, can you please, 18 for the record, tell me who explained it to you and --
19 A.
It was 20 Q.
when?
21 A.
It was explained by --
by my boss, 22
[b)(7C)c.
It was explained by --
really by all levels 23 of management.
This was an all-management-wide bonus 24 program.
And there was information that was in 25 writing.
It was put on bulletin boards.
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out electronically in the form of e-mails.
2 Q.
Can you provide me a copy of that, sir?
3 A.
I I
I believe I can do that.
I 4
think I still have that information.
5 But the way it was described is, here's 6
a half dozen or so goals that the Callaway Plant needs 7
to meet for the year for you guys to get this bonus.
8 There's an --
there's an earnings per share target that 9
Ameren has to meet for the year for you guys to get 10 this bonus.
Then there's also --
for my department, 11 there were some operations department goals that we had 12 to meet to get the bonus.
13 And then, the one individual part that 14 we all needed to do to get a portion of the bonus was 15 we had to do a certain number of management
- 16. observations of workers out doing things.
And it was 17 not a very high number.
I don't know of anybody who 18 didn't easily exceed that goal.
19 You don't --
we would get quarterly 20 updates posted on the bulletin board, "Here's how we're 21 doing towards all these goals.
Right now, the bonus 22 will be funded at 70 percent of maximum," or 80 or 60.
23 And it varied by quarter.
And at the end of the year, 24 in January, they started sending out e-mails saying, 25 "Okay.
The results are being tallied and it looks like
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this is how much money --
it was like, this is the percentage you're going to get."
At some point in February, an electronic calculator was sent out, where you plugged in your salary range and it would calculate what your bonus was going to be for you.
And it was basicallysent out as, "Hey, congratulations management employees.
We'ye met all these goals."
You know, "Plug the numbers into here and figure out what your bonus is going to be."
I had a ---
okay.
So that's the way the bonus program was described to us as the way it would work.
I had a discussion with
)(7C)c in mid-February, and somewhere between the 10th and the 15th of February, where he sat down and went over my appraisal with me.
And the way he explained my job performance to me was that I was being evaluated as b)(7C)c There's three cat-- four categories, and I don't remember what the lowest is.
Then there's needs improvement.
There's meets or --
there's meets all requirements, then there's exceeds all requirements, or something to that effect.
And I was in the --
in th b)(7C)c
[Bob] apologized to me for evaluating me there, and he said --
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attempted to make it clear that, you know --
he said,.
2 "I did not evaluate you there, but I was told by the 3
managers that I needed to evaluate you there asF(
b)(*
He said, "When I did your evaluation, I 5
evaluated you as meeting all job requirements."
He 6
said, "I would --
I would not have evaluated you there, 7
but I'm a good soldier and the managers have spoken, 8
and they think you should be rated as*
C)c Sb)(7C)c 10 Q.
Well, who's the managers?
11 A.
I have to this day,, I don't know.
12 have never gotten a name.
13 Q.
And this was an end-of-year evaluation 14 or --
15 A.
This was end-of-year evaluation.
16 Q.
Okay.
17 A.
So, in /February, I was told that for all 18 of 2005 b)(7C)*c 19 b)(7C)c
- Now, did go on to say, "Look.
Don't 20 worry about this."
He said, "I already know what the 21 bonuses are going to be."
He said, "Your bonus is 22 probably going to be b)(TC)c It's probably going 23 to be in the order of b)(7C)c 24 He said, "And this rating of Fb)(c)c-25 b)(7C)c has no impact on that whatsoever."
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said, "You're still going to get a great bonus."
He 2
said, "I've also seen what the pay raises are.
Pay 3
raises are running close to four percent, so you're 4
probably looking at another ballpark b)(7C)c pay raise 5
on top of that."
He said, "And this has no effect on 6
that."
7 He said, "This is a paperwork thing.
8 The managers have identified some employees that they 9
think need to do better.
You're one of them."
And he 10 said again, he said, "I disagreed with that, but I'm 11 doing my job by telling you this is your evaluation.
12 It will not affect how much money you make."
13 I also talked to b)(7c)c in that 14 timeframe, mid-February.
And b)(7C)c old me the same 15 thing.
He said, "I didn't evaluate you as needs 16 improvement.
I would not have evaluated you as needs 17 improvement."
And he --
he went further to say, "Even 18 though I am a manager, I was not present at the meeting 19 where you were evaluated, so I can't really tell you 20 who it was that thought you needed improvement.
But it 21 wasn't me.
It's not my fault."
22 And he and I didn't really talk money.
23 He was just explaining to me that --
exonerating 24 himself.
He didn't have anything to do with the 25 evaluation that I got.
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was the one who explained to me that 2
it had no impact on money and no impact on dollars.
3 "Don't worry about it.
You're going ot get a great 4
raise.
You're going to get a great bonus.
You do a 5
good job."
6
- Now, in hindsight, I've heard enough 7
other --
I've heard enough other, well, lies, I guess, 8
from nd from nce then to --
that would 9
cause me to question a lot of. the things that they have 10 told me.
But like I said, I.was told explicitly by
)(C 11 that I was getting a full raise, I was getting a full 12 bonus.
I was told by br.
in that timeframe that as 13 far as he was concerned, I was his number one guy, that 14 he had no reason why --
no idea why I would've been 15 evaluated as needs improvement.
16 This was all a couple weeks after the --
17 after had been removed from shift.
And this was 18 also about three weeks after I went to Dave Hollabaugh.
19 Q.
Did anybody tell
- you, "Hey, we're 20 giving --
we're not giving you this if of you're 21 getting a lower mark on your evaluation because you 22 brought this to the attention of" 23 A.
No.
No.
Nobody made that tie.
What I 24 was told by and by was that, "This has been 25 this has been mandated from on high.
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spoken.
They think youý b But don't 2
worry about it.
It's not going to affect how much 3
money you make.
You're going to" --
4 Q.
Okay.
But they didn't state that it was 5
related 6
A.
No.
They did not.
7 Q.
to your allegation in any way.
8 A.
No.
They did not.
9 Q.
Did they relay to you tha b)(TC)c 10
ýb)('c)c
ýased on your job performance?
11 A.
They said it was based on my job 12 performance.
13 Q.
So that job performance had nothing to 14 do with the allegation.
15 A.
That is true.
16 Q.
Right.
You're just assuming that that 17 all occurred because --
and, I guess, you felt that you 18 did an adequate job and you should've gotten a 19 higher --
20 A.
And based on the conversation that I had 21 with *Z71 and witb(
22 Q.
Okay.
23 A.
The two people that I work for, who both 24 told me that I did a good job and that they did not --
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not been evaluated as I had been 2
evaluated as
)I(7C)c and somebody else had 3
told them that they had to change it.
4 Q.
Okay.
Let's go back to the bonus now.
5 The bonus itself, nobody ever said in an e-mail or from 6, management came and told you, stating, "This is what 7
you're going to get, and this is" 8
A.
The closest --
9 Q.
What I'm saying is did somebody state to 10 you in an e-mail, written format, or comment, a manager 11 above you come and state, "This is what you're going to 12 get on your bonus"?
13 A.
The closest thing I have to that is an 14 e-mail that was sent out basically, "Congratulations.
15 We've met all our goals.
Plug in your salary to figure 16 out what your bonus is going to be."
And that was sent 17 to all management employees.
18 Q.
Right.
But that was sent to everybody.
19 A.
That's correct.
20 Q.
Everybody.
So --
21 A.
Because that is the way the program --
22 Q.
Okay.
I--
23 A.
was supposed to work.
24 Q.
I understand.
But I'm trying to get to 25 the --
you feel that it was an adverse action.
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what I'm trying to get at, sir, did anybody come and 2
tell
- you, "This is what you're going to get" and then 3
you ended up not getting it because you brought up your 4
allegation?
And that's what I'm trying to bring up, is 5
did somebody send you an e-mail or some type of 6
documentation or come and talk to you saying, "This is 7
what you're going to get," and then you ended up not 8
getting that?
9 A.
The closest --
it's not in writing.
The 10 closest I have in writing is the e-mail I just told you 1L about.
The person that came to me personally and told 12 me was and it was verbal.
It was not in 13 writing.
And what he-told me was, "You're going to get 14 a full bonus and you're going to get a full pay raise.
15 And the bonuses are going to be about b
and the 16 pay raise should be about b)(7C)c which would've 17 been about another c
18 Q.
Okay.
Let's talk about the bonus only 19 right now.
20 A.
Okay.
21 Q.
Did you get a bonus?
22 A.
I got a bonus that wasb)(TC)c 23 Q.
No.
The question is I want it for 24 the record.
Did you get a bonus?
It's either yes or 25 no.
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A.
I got a --
I got what was called a half 2
bonus.
3 Q.
Yes, sir.
4 A.
Yes.
5 Q.
Did you get a bonus?
Yes or no?
That's 6
what the question 7
A.
Yes.
I did.
8 Q.
Okay.
If you could just answer.
I'm 9
going to give you questions in that manner.
10 A.
Okay.
11 Q.
Okay.
Now, what was your bonus that you 12 received for the year --
you said 2005.
Right?
13 A.
This would've been for calendar year 14 2005.
15 Q.
What was the amount?
16 A.
It wasbO)c 17 Q.
b)(7C)c 18 Okay.
Let's go back to this e-mail that you stated 19 that was sent to all employees, when you stated that 20 there would've been a calculator attached to it that 21 you could've plugged in some numbers and came up with a 22 figure.
Correct?
23 A.
That is correct.
24 Q.
The answer is yes.
Okay?
25 A.
Yes.
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 Q.
- Now, when you did that --
when was this time period when this came out, sir?
A.
The e-mail that I'm referring to came out in the February timeframe.
Q.
Okay.
February 2006?
A.
February of 2006.
Q.
Is there any way you can give me a copy of that, sir?
A.
Yes.
I can.
Q.
'I appreciate it.
After we're done and you can send it to me, and I'll give you an address, sir.
A.
Q.
that e-mail not just to Correct?
Okay.
- Now, so you're saying that based upon that was sent at the time, and it stated you but to all management employees.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
That based upon all these different things that had occurred that were met, the goals were met.
Correct?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
If you plugged in this certain figure, this is what you would come out.
And you plugged in your figures and it would've been 11,000.
I mean, I'm NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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sorry.
Did I say that, right?
2 A.
It would've been approximatel ~zIýj 3
Q.
Approximately 4
A.
That is correct.
5 Q.
Sorry about that.
I misstated that.
6 But you got) =
on the bonus that you received--
7 A.
Yes.
8 Q.
so you believe that you lost out on 9
(b(jc approximately?
10 A.
That is correct.
11 Q.
Approximately, sir.
12 A.
Yeah.
13 Q.
Okay.
Based on the information that was 14 told to you.
15 A.
Yes.
16 Q.
Okay.
But the information wasn't just 17 solely to you, it was to all management employees.
18 A.
The e-mail 19 Q.
Yes.
That's what I'm talking --
20 A.
was to all management employees.
21 Q.
That's what I'm talking about, sir.
22 Yes, sir.
23 A.
The conversation I had with my boss,*bG(c 24 b)(7c)c was just about me.
It was not about other 25 shift managers.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
And Mr.
said that he felt A.
Mr.
b)(7C)c old me that I would get a full bonus, which would've been aboutb)
Those were his words.
Q.
Those were his words?
A.
It would be about b)(7C)c and "you are going to get a full bonus, and you are going to get a full pay raise."
Q.
Is Mr.
b)(7C)c he one that --
is the person that gives out bonuses inyour area?
A.
That is correct.
He's the one who does my evaluation, and he is the one who provides me with salary information."
Q.
Is your bonuses tied to your performance?
A.
The bonus for 2005, as I just described to vou, the onlv nart of mv nerformance that it was F-v -
tied to was Q.
question is:
Correct?
In A.
Q.
gave you tha A.
the number of observations that I did.
Right.
But the question is, sir, the Your evaluation that Mr.
b)(7C)c gave you.
2005.
Yes.
He was your first line supervisor that it evaluation.
That is correct.
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 Q -
And the one that saysib)(7C)c Correct?
Did that evaluation correlate to the bonus?
Did that have any significance on the amount of the bonus?
A.
It was not supposed to.
Q.
Okay.
So it did not?
So it had no --
the e'valuation --
A.
There's --
Q.
had no bearing on the bonus.
A..
There's a little bit more that I can throw in here.
Q.
Okay.
Go ahead and elaborate, sir.
A.
If you'd like for me to.
Q.
Yes.
Go ahead.
A.
As I said, the way the bonus was described in 2005, and everything was put in writing, was based on Ameren earnings, it was based on Callaway goals, it was based on operations department goals for me since I was in the operations department, and then a chunk of it was based on the number of observations that I did.
That's the way the program was advertised.
That's the way all the correspondence emails, whatever, you know, and all the bulletin board postings and everything were put out.
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your individual performance.
2 Q.
Okay.
- Well, then, the --
how would that 3
have been an adverse action for you raising your 4
allegation if the evaluation didn't correlate to the 5
bonus?
6 A.
Well, here's the rest of --
the rest of 7
the story is after my discussion with in 8
mid-February where he went over my evaluation and then 9
told me, "You know, don't worry.
You're going to get a b)(7C)c 10 full bonus, about ou're going to get a 11 full pay raise that's about b)(Tc)c 12 me --
and this would've been in March, about March 10th 13 timeframe --
and said, "Hey, I need to talk to you."
14 He pulled me aside.
I was up in the 15 control room.
He pulled me into one of the offices, a 16 conference room up there, shut the door, and said, b)(7c)c 17 "Hey, in retrospect, since you were evaluated 18 you're going to get a half bonus.
You're 19 not going to get a full bonus."
20 Q.
Who told you this, sir?
21 A.
22 Q.
When was this conversation?
23 A.
March 10th.
24 Q.
Of--
25 A.
March 10th approximately.
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Q.
Approximately" And was this 2
conversation witnessed by anybody else besides you and 3
him?
4 A.
No.
Once again, this was just he and I.
5 Q.
Okay.
Was it in writing, any type of 6
e-mail -r anything?
7 A.
No.
It was not.
8 Q.
Just verbally from him to you?
9 A.
And the rest of the story is, "Also 10 because you were rated as b)(7C)c
- you're not 11 going to get a pay raise."
12 Q.
And this was on March 10th he told you 13 this?
14 A.
This is correct.
And I and I told 15 him, I said, "You know, I just had a conversation with Kb)(7C)c*
I t~l 16 r
less a month ago.
AndA old me that I was 17 getting a full raise.
lb)7C)c old me that I was getting a 18 full bonus, so why is it that now I'm only getting a 19 half raise and only getting a half bonus?"
again 20 told me that, "This is just wrong.
You should not be 21 treated this way.
I don't know why we're doing this to 22 you," et cetera, et cetera, "but the managers have 23 decided that this is the way it's going to be.
24 And because you were rated a 25 b)(7C)c you're only going to get a half bonus and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you're not going to get a pay raise, and there's nothing I can do about it."
Q.
Okay.
- Now, let's talk about --
let's go back to the evaluation, sir.
You,)(TC)c.
What did they tell you b(con?
A.
Their --
the evaluation form 'that we used this year had about 20 different areas, 20 different categories.
And I was rated as Sb)(7C)c Q.
Could you give me a copy of that language, please?
A.
I can get you a copy of that.
That's --
Q.
And each one of these -- did the supervisor sit down and go over each one of these with you?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
He has since then.
He has?
Did he At the time, he really didn't.
At the time --
Q.
He didn't?
A.
it was a pretty --
a pretty short discussion.
Since then, he and I have sat down --_b)(7c)c b)(7C)c and I have sat down and gone over in more detail what he meant when he filled out the evaluation, bearing in mind that as he told me that's not the way NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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that he actually evaluated me; he evaluated me as 2
meeting all job requirements.
But one --
but the one 3
they filled out on paper that shows that I 4
ib)(7)c lwe did sit down, probably in the July 5
timeframe.
6 Q.
This is after the fact?
7 A.
Wait -- well, after the fact, where he 8
sat down and said, "Okay.
Well, here's what I think 9
you need to do in this area, and here's what I think 10 you need to do in this area."
11 Q.
And this was after the completion of the 12 Employees Concerns investigation?
13 A.
Yeah.
14 Q.
Okay.
That's what I --
15 A.
And it was also --
it was also well 16 after had been removed from shift.
It was also --
17 the pay raise and bonus stuff happened, I think it was 18 around the end of March, end of March pay period, where 19 the bonuses were paid and raises took effect, like the 20 1st of April.
21 Q.
Okay.
If you could please, after the 22 completion of this interview, if you could send that to 23 me, I would appreciate the --
24 A.
I can do that.
25 Q.
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could put a little comment on what Mr.
b)(7C)c had told 2
you subsequent to the --
after the initial time that he 3
gave you the evaluation -- what did he tell you since 4
you went over?
You said July is when you went over.
.5
- Correct, sir?
6 A.
That is correct,.
7 Q.
Approximately July 2006.
If you could 8
put a little
- comment, you know, and reference what he 9
said for each one.
10 A.
I might even have something in writing 11 from --
I think I do have something in writing, from the 12 discussion we had in July.
13 Q.
Okay.
14 A.
And I can send you that as well.
15 Q.
I would appreciate it if you could do 16 that so I can clarify --
17 A.
Okay.
18 Q.
why they rated you lower on all these 19 things.
And what I gather, sir, was a surprise to you.
20 A.
That's --
21 Q.
Especially since you were told that 22 everything was fine.
Right?
23 A.
It was very much a surprise to me.
Yes.
24 Q.
Okay.
All right.
Let's talk about the 25 pay raises, sir.
- Well, first of all, let's go back to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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the bonus.
The bonuses are not supposed to be 2
connected to the evaluation.
Based on what they put 3
out on the program, it was just if you made so many 4
observations.
Right?
5 A.
That is correct.
b)(7C)c 6
Q.
But what you were told by Mr.
7 Mr.
or Mr.
b told you that it did have an 8
impact on your bonus.
9 A.
In March, I was told by b)(7C)c 10 that --
11 Q.
Okay.
Mr.
b)(7C)c 12 A.
that they had decided to reduce my b)(7C)c 13 bonus by half 14 Q.
So, then, it was connected?
15 A.
Yes.
In March, I was told it
- was, you 16 know.
17 Q.
But in July, you were told that it was 18 connected?
19 A.
Well, yeah.
In March, I was told that 20 it was; prior to that, like everybody else, I was told 21 that it was not.
And in February, I was told 22 specifically that it was not in my case.
23 Q.
Okay.
Let's talk about the raises, sir..
24 You were told by.Mr.
b)(7C)c that you were to be 25 getting --
or by Mr-(b(7ý NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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A.
I was told by Mr. Ib)(7C)c 2
Q.
Mr.
b)(7C)c And when did he tell you 3
that you were going to get a full raise?
4 A.
That would've been around February 10th, 5
somewhere in that timeframe.
6 Q.
February 10th.
7 A.
It was whenever we went over my 8
evaluation.
Between the 10th and the 15th.
9 Q.
The 10th and 15th, of 2006, he told you 10 that you would be getting a full raise.
Right?
11 A.
That is correct.
And he told me 12 approximately what it would be.
13 Q.
And what 14 A.
He said, "I have seen the raise --
I've 15 seen the numbers and.-- for raises, and they're running lb)(7CC~c
- 16.
approximately b(Cc'He
- said, "If I were you, I
17 would expect to get about b)(7C)c 18 Q.
Okay.
So he didn't give you a 19 definitive answer; he just told you an approximation 20 based on what he saw that was coming out.
Right?
21 A.
That is correct.
22 Q.
But he didn't promise you, saying --
he 23 didn't say, b)(7c I guess he addresses you by 24 (b)(7C)c 7you're getting a b)(7c)c this year."
25 He didn't say that?
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A.
No.
What he said was, "You're getting a.
2 full raise and you're'getting a full bonus.
The raises 3
are running about b)(70)c the bonus will run 4
b)(7C)c It will be very close to b)(7C)c So he 5
didn't give me a dollar amount, but he did tell me I 6
would get a full raise and a full bonus.
7 Q.
Okay.
When did you find out that you 8
didn't get a full raise?
9 A.
About March 10th.
10 Q.
When they came out?
Or did somebody 11 come and tell you?
!()(7C)c b
he
)(7C)c 12 A.
No.
i that's whe 13 ulled me aside to tell me thai because I had 7
b) (7) c 14 been evaluated a I was not getting a 15 raise or --
and I was only getting half of the bonus.
16 Q.
So you did not get a raise for 2005?
17 A.
I did not get a raise.
That's correct.
18 And I got half of the bonus that I was told I was going 19 to get.
20 Q.
Okay.
So those we're the adverse actions 21 that you've identified.
22 A.
The adverse action is about --
- yeah, 23 it's about b)(7)c y my calculation.
24 Q.
That you didn't --
25 A.
Based on what told me that I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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would've gotten, and based on what I actually did get.
2 And I was told b prior to that happeni g 3
that, "Well, this is what we're going to do instead."
4 Q.
Okay.
And did you ever bring it up to 5
their attention saying, "Hey, did you do this because I 6
brought up my allegation concerning Mr
)(7c)c 7
sleeping in the control room?"
8 A.
_(7C)c and I actually had a 9
conversation about that --
10 Q.
Can you elaborate, please, sir?
11 A.
about this timeframe.
Yes.
I was 12 pretty unhappy and he told me to come see him the next 13 day.
I came and saw him the next day.
He and I --
14 Q.
What day is that, sir?
15 A.
This is in March timeframe.
He told me 16 approximately March 10th, "You're not getting a raise 17 and you're getting a half of a bonus."
The next day --
18 you know, whatever that was, 10th, l1th, 12th, 19 somewhere in that timeframe --
I went to see him in his 20 office.
We had a lengthy discussion.
Actually, for a 21 couple of days in a row we had --
we had two lengthy 22 discussions.
23 During the course of those discussions, 24 and I pointed out to him that I thought it was a bunch 25 of crap that he --
I pointed out to him that he had to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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have known that I was the one that went to Employee 2
Concerns, that in my mind, you know, there was a 3
connection between the two --
between me getting --
4 between me going t
[Dave] Hollabaugh and making upper 5
management aware that there was a problem and the raise 6
and the bonus that I got.
7 He acted surprised that --
he' said, 8
"Gosh, I had no idea that it was you."
And we talked 9
about that.
I said, "How could you have not known that 10 it was me?
I mean, you and I had a bunch of 1i conversations before and since."
And he said, 12 "Well" --
he said, "Yeah, I knew that I had talked to 13 you.
I really didn't know who it was that went and 14 talked to [Dave] until now.
I wish you wouldn't have 15 told me because now I know.
You know, now I have to be 16 careful whenever I deal with you" and all this kind of 17 stuff.
- Which, in my mind, was ridiculous.
18 As I said, in February, I was 100 19 percent sure that he knew who it was.
Dave Hollabaugh 20 and I had a conversation about it.
That --
that --
21 that was the part of the conversation that he and I had 22 that related to this.
23 Q.
Did he say in that conversation or any 24 other conversations that he had with you that he --
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because you had raised that allegation?
2 A.
Absolutely not 3
Q.
He did not.
Had anybody else ever 4
mentioned that to you?
5 A.
Absolutely not.
I don't think anybody 6
out there is dumb enough to do that.
7 Q.
Okay.
But when they brought up --
let's 8
go back to the evaluation.
When they brought up all 9
these things that say that you need improvement, how 10 did you feel when they explained each one of those?
11 You said there were about ten approximately that they 12 rated you 13 A.
I don't particularly agree with them.
14 No.,
As I said, I could also show you previous years' 15 evaluations that said I did a great job.
16 Q.
Can you furnish me with the year before, 17 please, sir?
18 A.
Yeah.
I will --
19 Q.
I 20 A.
I hope that I have it.
21 Q.
I could go through Personnel, but I'd 22 rather just 23 A.
Yeah.
24 Q.
look at this first before I move on, 25 you know, and interview other people.
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A.
Right.
And if you were to look at --
2 and --
if I've got it, I will give it to you.
As you 3
said, they are in Personnel.
But if you were to look 4
at my previous two years, five years, whatever work 5
appraisal, they all say that I do a-good job.
6 Everything I've had in writing, up until February of*
7 2006, said that I did a good job.
ib)(7C)c 8
Q.
- Well, Mr.
I'm trying to do 9
this because prior --
I. don't want before I have to 10 go to the plant or talk to anybody else --
11 A.
Right.
12 Q.
I'd rather evaluate all this on my 13 own first before I go --
14 A.
Sure.
15 Q.
You understand where I'm coming from, 16 sir?
17 A.
I do understand that.
And if I have 18
- them, I'll give them to you.
19 Q.
Okay.
And if you find any type of b)(7C)c 20 correspondence, sir, where Mr.
or Mr.
b)(7C)c 21 has talked to you, I would appreciate it, I mean, 22 concerning your allegation with you bringing up b)(7C)c 23 Mr.
eing attentive.
24 A.
Yes.
25 Q.
I would appreciate that, please.
You NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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say there probably isn't any.
2 A.
As I said, the discussions that I had 3
with fb)(7c)c were always one-on-one, and nothin 4
was nothing was ever put in writing.
And that is 5
- c7C That's pretty much the way does business.
6 He does not document a lot of --
I mean, he talks to a 7
lot of people; he doesn't write a lot of stuff down.
8 As I said, I've --
there are key events 9
that tell me where I was at on the calendar whenever I 10 talked to him.
This was my training week or this was 11 right before the refueling outage, but --
12 Q.
I'd like for you to --
13 A.
And I don't have a lot of personal notes 14 that I've written in, either.
15 Q.
What I appreciate, sir and what I'd 16 like for you to do is say it on the record, sir, who 17 are some of the people that you believe that I could 18 speak at the plant that could corroborate some of the 19 information you've given me today, and that would be 20 able to assist you with what you're stating today, sir?
21 If you could write down their names here, I would 22 appreciate it.
That way, I don't get their spelling 23 wrong.
And then 24 A.
Okay.
25 Q.
some of the people that you think NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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that --
would be beneficial for me to interview 2
concerning your allegation, sir.
That's what I'm 3
asking you, sir.
4 A.
Considering my allegation, in what 5
sense?
As far as 6
Q.
Personnel that --
let's start with your 7
protected activity.
Persons that had knowledge that b)(7C)c 8
Mr.
ay have been asleep in the control room.
9 Of course, you've already --
I'm going to end up
[b)(7C)c
}
b)(7C)c 10 interviewing Mr.
f course, and Mr.
11 Those are obvious, sir.
12 A.
Right.
13 Q.
But is there any other personnel that 14 you see that could be beneficial for me to talk to, to 15 assist me in this investigation?
I'm giving you the 16 opportunity right now for you to tell me 17 A.
What kind of information are you looking 18 for?
19 Q.
Oh, well, the information concerning 20 your protected --
you know, concerning the allegation
- b)(7C)cb 21 of Mr.
being asleep in the control room.
22 A.
Okay.
23 Q.
That they believe that you do you did 24 receive adverse action.
25 A.
Okay.
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Q.
Anything dealing with that that would be 2
beneficial towards your allegation.
That's what I'm 3
asking.
4 A.
And I can write down a lot of names, but 5
1 will tell you that the way that my management does 6
business is my management, Ib)(C)c 7
or anybody else in my management food chain --
8 Q.
Yes, sir.
9 A.
they will not discuss anything about 10 me with any other employees, whether it was the raise 11 that I got or the bonus that I got or the evaluation 12 that I got.
And if I were to ask them that type of 13 information, what I would hear from them is:
"That's 14 personal.
We're not going to talk to you about what 15 kind of an evaluation" -- or, they won't even tell me 16 really where my evaluation puts me in the group.
If 17 there are ten shift managers and there's about --
18 Q.
Oh, I understand.
19 A.
They won't even' tell me that,
".We put 20 you in this bottom --
we put you here.
We put this guy 21 here or this guy here."
Or anything like'that.
I 22 mean --
23 Q.
But was 24 A.
so there's nobody else that would 25 have firsthand knowledge.
You know what I mean?
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Q.
But what does occur, sir, at plants --
2 and I've done a lot of~these investigations, sir is 3
that people talk amongst themselves.
I mean, I don't 4
know if you talked to another shift manager 5
A.
Yes.
6 Q.
and compared, "Hey, I got a bonus of 7
this, or I got a raise of this."
And, of course,
- 8 they're in the same room with your other employees.
9 Well, you know, this guy, you know, does his job and, 10 you know, I don't know where he needs improvement.
11 That's what I'm getting at, sir.
12 A.
Okay.
That 13 Q.
That portion.
14 A.
I can provide you that.
.' 15 Q.
That's part of it, sir.
I'm looking at 16 the whole picture, sir.
17 A.
Okay.
18 Q.
But I'm giving you the opportunity, 19 sir --
you raised the allegation.
I'm giving you the 20 opportunity to tell me people that I need to talk to 21 to --
22 A.
Okay.
23 Q.
to look into this-allegation, sir.,
24 That's what this is for.
25 A.
And that's what I wanted to know.
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Q.
Uh-huh.
2 A.
And I come. up with things like that.
3 Q.
If you could give me, you know, six 4
- names, seven, eight names, somewhere in there, you 5
know, that would --
what I don't heed to get is a name 6
where one person heard one word of the whole allegation 7
or involved -- they didn't have that much involvement, 8
because it's not going to be too beneficial for us to 9
talk to --
10 A.
Let me give you an example.
11 Q.
Yes, sir.
12 A.
I'll throw this out here and you tell me 13 if this is the kind of stuff that you're looking for.
(b)(7C)c 14 I talked to -
as a name that I 15 mentioned earlier.
16 Q.
Yes, sir.
17 A.
And he is a guy who has been --
he spent 18 three of the last year --
you know, most recent years.
19 as, a b)(7c)c 1
20
[b)(7C)c And he. and I talked 21 right after this happened.
b)(7c)c 22 Fb)c t would've been in March timeframe, probably 23 late March timeframe.
But I don't think the timeframe 24 is that important.
25 But he and I were talking on a night NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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shift.
There was nothing else going on.
He said, "You J(b)(7C)c 2
know" he said,
'ave always 3
kept track of who we think --
which crews do a great 4
job, which shift managers do a great job."
And he told 5
me, he said, "You know, when we sit down and talk, we 6
always rank you as the top shift manager.
We when
- ~b)(7C)c*
7 we heard that you were ranked as we 8
were all shocked based on your simulator performance, 9
based on standing watch with you, et cetera."
Is that 10 the kind of information that you're looking for?
11 Q.
Well 12 A.
I mean, are you looking --
are you 13 looking for stuff like that?
Or are you looking for 14 hard information, somebody saw something?
7 15 Q.
No.
No, sir.
Anything that can benefit 16 us --
and let me just tell you for the record, sir.
Is 17 when we talk to people, you know, they are under oath 18 and a lot of things come out that necessarily wouldn't 19 have come out 20 A.
Sure.
21 Q.
until you do a one-on-one.
And if 22 you believe that may be beneficial, go ahead and put 23 that down.
That's why I'm giving you the opportunity, 24 sir.
A lot of times, people don't get an opportunity 25 to give the investigators --
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
.17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
Right.
Q.
who people that should be talked to.
A.
Well, that's what I was looking for.
Are you looking for that type of information, or are you looking for --
Q.
I'm looking for whatever information that you think --
A.
Okay.
Q.
that may be beneficial to your allegation, sir.
A.
I can give you a list of individuals wh are aware of the protected activity.
Q.
Okay.
A.
And I can --
and most of those people, believe, have already been interviewed by
)ave Hollabaugh Q.
It's okay, sir.
A.
and by you.
Q.
This is a --
there have been other investigations at Callaway.
This is your allegation I'm looking into, sir.
A.
Okay.
Q.
And there may have been other investigations done, but this is completely --
A.
Okay.
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I
79 1
Q.
on its own a separate issue.
2 A.
I understand.
Okay.
That's what I 3
wanted --
I didn't want to give you a bunch of stuff 4
that you're not interested in, so.
5 Q.
Yes, sir.
If you could do me that
/
6 favor, you know, if you have those names.
And then --
7 A.
Do you want me to write down what his 8
position is?
9 Q.
Yes, please.
10 A.
Okay.
11 Q.
We can go off the record for now.
12 (WHEREIN; a short recess was taken.)
13 BY MR.
ROMERO:
14 Q.
Okay.
We're back on the record.
The 15 interview of Mr.
b The time is approximately J
I~b)(7c)c 16 4:36 p.m. Central Standard Time.
Mr.
before 17 we went off the record, I had asked you if you had any 18 names, that you could provide me on people you believe 19 that I should talk to concerning your allegation.
If 20 you could please provide them for the record, just the 21 names.
22 A.
Okay.
I'll run through the names to 23 you.
Do you want their title or just names?
24 Q.
You can do the title, too.
25 A.
Okay.
__7Cc_
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
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< 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 b)(7C)c Ib)(7c)c Jwho 'is a b)(7C)c b)(7C)c.
he's the b)(7C)c b)(7C)c who is cdrrently a b)(7C)c b)(7C)c" Sb)(7C)c
[Andf Sb)(7C)c Q.
Okay.
All right, sir.
Thank you.
As you know, sir, we went over your allegations, sir, concerning your protected activity and management style and the adverse action.
Do you have anything further you'd like to add, sir?
A.
No.
I don't think so.
Q.
Okay.
Mr.
b)(7Cic have I or any other NRC representative threatened you in any way or offered you any rewards in return for the statements you've given today?
A.
No.-
That has not happened.
Q.
Have you given this statement freely and voluntarily?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
One more t-ime, sir.
Is there anything further you care to add to the record?
A.
No.
There is not.
Q.
Okay.
Mr.
b)(7C)c J
I'd like to thank NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you for talking to me and giving me your time and answering my questions, sir.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Thank you, sir.
This interview is 6
concluded.
And the time is 4:37 p.m. on August 9th, 2006.
(WHEREIN; the interview was concluded.)
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433