ML062540170
| ML062540170 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 03/19/2003 |
| From: | - No Known Affiliation |
| To: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| References | |
| FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML062540170 (14) | |
Text
- Conversation .witil March 19 or 20, 2003 Harvin: Have a couple of minutes?
Sure. What do You have?
Harvin: I have a c6uple of questions and another ... (inaudible.) OK? Here's my first question.
I want a straight talk conversation with you.
Harvin: I want to know why I got the letter.
1whe letter being...
Harvin: The 45-day letter. I've heard a lot of rumors. I've heard you being quoted as sayingdifferent things. And... uh .... I'd like to know from you....if you ma he decision, i made the decision, if. made the decision, iA madd the decisior,.I mean I've heard all kinds of stories. And I'd like to know the truth.
AndI'd like to'talk about it so I can...
I'm the only one thai said that you had to leave. You know, the only discussions ye had with....never any discussion wi l uh maybe one discussion with and maybe twice I had discussions wit"M PSEG an retired several years ago],
Harvin:.
1 The discussion is always along the lines like 'How long is Kymn Harvin going to 7e witlý you? It was always about that, it was never them suggesting, ------ any way shape or form about yourself.
Harvin: OK, that's good to know. I appreciate that.
And..uh*.I think in the last couple of years there's a conversation wit and
- and I'm not quite sure how we got into it other than I may have been going over the organization chart with him, that, you know, he said, "How long is she going to
- bewith you?" So I mean it's like that. You know, so the ...uh...you know, the people working here, right, the nice thing about me is I work fori Information In this record was deleted in accordance with the Freedrom of Infornition Act,exemptions
Harvin: Right.
So, they don't have a say in anything other thanq And the way oes the job."
business is, "You've got t-arvin: Right.
wSo that's (inaudible)..
Harvin: OK. So, tell me your thought process.
MMW Uh...rmy thought process is .... two-fold, and that's (inaudible), if we are going to downsize the organization and downsize it significantly..
And trying to benchmark processes And compare numbers of people to do processes And how many people it takes to do a process. We get down to some number And before..wve go(after the line, right?, we cut the staff. And that's the IT initiative, the stuff that doing, and that's what I'm doing. So it's just that I don't want to be, I don't want to be in the posit.ion of having to downsize the Union without having the leanest, and leanest may be the wrong word, without having any management organization that you know eithe'r get better now or. We will never end up where Fossil's going...
And then the second issue is just it is time for the guys to stand on their own two feet.
We've given them everything---we've given a lot of individual training, Leading in the 21" Century, Supervisors Aca...given them a lot of training, right? And you've given them a significant amount of coaching. And we've done stuff with Gap [Gap International, a consulting firm]. Its just time.. They've got to do it. So that's two (i.naudible).
Harvin: . OK, so it's not ..not uh... personal, in that sense.
TII. Right. It's no can do cause you either need the function or you don't need the function.
Harvin: Yes, so here's-my concerm A few things...one is ... leadership and accountability remain our issue, there's no disputing that. They, they contract with somebody, pay him $25,000, he comes in for less than 10 days, writes a two friggin' page report, gets $25 grand, and he does nothing. And...
-4
, (1 Whose this?
Harvin: And he, you know and I said this to ,_.
"08"M I said, 'He's doing myjob..and he did nothing.'
And even last night he said I got a two page report fro $25,000 and Isai d yeah. You better be squawking. You got nothing. Right? And then they go to organization to bring in an outside consultant to work with Chemistry. So the need is clear and frankly and why I wanted to hear from you and I appreciate your candor is I believe, and you can tell me I'm wrong, but I believe I'm an incredible asset to the new leader to help him..um... with the learning curve that it takes to come in and turn this organization around. And so, urm...! wanted to know....if f as the latitude, if you made the decision, could he choose to keep me if he wanted to.
ub9 I'm sure could do anything that he wants to do.
Harvin: OK, I needed, I needed to know whether that. was the case because, when I came here five years ago, it was because I was committed to this being a great place to work for 1800 people. And it's not yet.
j Right.
Harvin: And...
Bu not coming here to turn anything around.
Harvin: Well, uh .... maybe that's not the right word. But we certainly want to move forward.
We want to continue on the path, yes. But, uh... you know, I don't believe you can help us get our critical issues out. Yes, there's still accountability and leadership, yes I understand that. Our issues are toe-to-toe, knock-down, drag-out with the Union. It is purely implementation of the Union contract. And you can't help in that arena, you're actually a detriment in that arena. And so, you know, there isn't a need for you there and that's where, for me, the issues lie. And I expect that where for s, but I don't know what he>s going to do. As far as the other guys, I think tha nd mostly to implement the leadership that's neee e to .o** thle eDp accountable, and coach, mentor and kick ass as appropriate, They need to replicate themselves. That's the way I see it. That's kinda the thought process I go through and say I don't need your organization anymore.
Harvin: uh-huh.
0 It's a lot of thirigs, right, but it boils down to those two. The end game, to help us a little bit, is getting the accountability is downsizing, it's not downsizing the Union wouldn't like that, it's just where everyone else is.
Harvin: I understand that.
A* And, in the sense that you've done a. 2od job, you did your best, no one is more comrnitted n you are, and it's over. Willi will have a time .... ? Yes, I'm not close enough to manaaement style to know wh.t he did at PPL or (inaudible). I know that PPL (iauible) those guys utilized the same fellow that Lutilizing for the Power initiative. There's great stuff to be done. (inaudible) H-le's utilizing several times in the past (inaudible) .... I don't have any sense at all where he's....
MI: OK, ..- 'as you probably know, I haven't left. I continue to work and when .1 wake up every morning I know I don't have to come to work. And a lot of people who get these letters don't come back. They don't come to work. And, uIn, l just wanted to hear from you what the thought process is so that I can choose, you know, what I do from here.
Umr....different issue, okay? (nod fronýý (Long Pause)
I want to say this appropriately..... .(pause)...I am very concerned about what's going on behind the fence. The message that's being sent, whether intended or not, is that production and getting the Hope Creek unit back on line is more important than nuclear safety.
Yeah, I appreciate tJaj'eedback. I don't believe it, but I appreciate it, right?
And you know, apparently l ad a hard time with the work issues relating to the.. uh...a recirc pump purge line. .. that was indicated and.. .took a lot of action over that.. .(inaudible)... but....you kn6w. ... it's clear.
Harvin: So when the guys with the licenses say that they are being pressured to start the unit back up and don't believe it is safe to do so, I owe you that feedback.
qý 'And I appreciate that.
Harvin: l as the weight of the world on his shoulders. The picture I drew you last time I was hei'e of him and the three directors...and two of them not being engaged and him having to, in essence, be the plant manager of both units, uh... he's in a very tough spot.
Harvin: And frankly I am worried, and other people are worried, people that you trust, kmeople that you respect who don't have the courage to come here and tell you, but theyafre worried that the transition for the next month... the word that got spoken to me this morning is "dangerous." So...um (long pause). What do we do?
Ct We don't do anything, because you know, it's everything you'd expect to see.
It's a bunch of bullshit. You know, even using words like that, you know. I mean you've got an operator that doesn't know shit from shy-no-lah, saying he's being pushed, right?
And he's not putting out the effort to begin with, who is suddenly being pushed, and his natural response to you is to say, "I have to worry about safety. There are safety issues.
This is baaaad, you know." And no matter how many sheets of paper you lay out I would say to carry out the evolution that I've asked you to do, right, you take four times the industry average. It doesn't land. They, they retreat into their defensive shells, it is not unlike a guy fills out a performance appraisal on a craft worker, and the craft worker files a grievance for each one of the goddamn, who has to respond to them? Their supervisor.
And the craft (inaudible) and then the craft comes back and says...um.. .makes a phone call to the Integrity Hotline and now he's being investigated.
Lakes call from e homeland security]
Harvin: So got your point. But I want to be sure that you hear firom me that the people who are giving the feedback are superintendents and above, at every level. Soit is not the tech in the field who is throwing the safety 'I don't want to do the work.' We have a management team over there that is concerned about how we are making decisions .... are we....is our head really in the fame? I asked them to come and talk with you.
Harvin: But I doubt they will. I couldn't sit in my office and not come and tell you. I trust you to deal with it appropriately.
I appreciate you coming over.
Kymn leaves and comes back in.
Harvin: I have a question.
AMJ Yes.
Harvin: I don't want to leave without .... (inaudible). So piece this together for me. OK?
INPO [Institute of Nuclear Power Operations, which provides oversight of all nuclear plants in the USA] comes in, WANO [World Association of Nuclear Operations, which provides oversight of all nuclear plants in the world] comes in, WANO comes in, and gives us a strength in Organization Effectiveness. Right? And...
I mean, that's what they are going to do?
Harvin: No, they did ... .in the fall... it's in the report.
I
,iF Well, OK. Yeah, they weren't (inaudible) in organization effectiveness. They were an ineffective organization.
Harvin: Well, it was....that was a strength we got...in the Organization Effectiveness category.
I would characterize it as a course in solving the leadership problem.
Harvin: Right. And, I'm told, by them and by the Vice Presidents, that I played a huM role in that. And that without me, we would not have gotten that Strength.
So, and you get heralded as a quote-unquote "enlightened leader" for having.mer on your team. So, how is it that four months later, you say, "I don't need you anymore."
Uh .... well...you can look at it a lot of different ways, right? Uh ... I didn't believe what they were saying, right, and that the people that were saying it from the INPO front don't have credibility, Qnd the crowd, Did they believe what they said or did they like react to a lot of effort and salesmanship that was put forth and write that up in the sense of we have to come out here and we've got to find some good things to write about as well as we've got to find out other areas for improvement. Now what did they respond to when they wrote that? And I believe they responded to We've got to come away with some things that are unique and different here.. .and write about them. And that's what they did. That's what they did.
Harvin: And you think it's untrue?
Yeah, I don't, I thinkit's untrue in the sense of there's no effect. Yes, I think it's untrue. You know, and I've not spent any time at all with f low right, but he strikes me as a more of a down-to-earth type of guy. I could.. what's the guy's name? In charge of the WANO team?
Harvin: Young guy?
No, no, the guy who .... (inaudible).....
Harvin: (inaudible), No...
AVad said that, that would have been worth a nickel. That would have been worth a nickel.
Harvin: The VP who retired, that guy?
.. The guy who said that they are not a 2 they are a 3 and let's make it happen.
Now if he had said that, it would have made a difference, it would have been like, real as
opposed to ihaving to find a number of items to speak positively about, saying this is one of those. That's how I see it, probably coming from the dark side. I've known or the past 20 years.
Harvin: OK, you can see how I would be left wondering, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Harvin: ..... So, not that I am going to do this, but if you got a letter from him saying that he thought that was one of our strengths, I'm not going to go that route, but you get... I had no idea you didn't believe them.
And uh... well, you've got to remember they come in and they come in and don't really know what's happening, kinda like the four of them sitting there saying, (inaudible)... Isn't life good... Isn't life good.(inaudible)... And they pull out this book, right, and saying "I think life sucks."
Which world is true? Right? Well...
Harvin: They are both true.
- Both true, eight. But this says you're cruising for a bruisin', you're cruising for a bruisin', and this says the other things (inaudible) .... to me that's analogous to wliat they are saying the fact'that they give us a Strength on leadership. Yeah, I.got they wrote that but it's not there. (inaudible) It's not real in the sense that (inaudible).
Harvin: Okay. Thanks for solving the mystery.
do appreciate the dialog.
Hariin: Thanks.
,3.
.4o
" ust came into my office, knocked on the door, came in, closed it and said, "I think you should writ a letter. Put all your thoughts in it to him. Tell him what should continue, tell him conderns that weren't getting addressed, he said do your job, put it in writing. He said that's what he's doing. He hasn't been able to get attention to some issues himself so he's put them in writing, like hiring for different positions. He said to me, "I am' the devil and don't you ever forget it." And I said, "You'll never be tile devil to me." And he.said, "Sometimes we have to salute and that's why I'm the devil. When I'm saluting I'm the devil."
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 conversation wit ,.. S Harvin: Have a couple of minutes?
N W*Sure. What do you have?
Harvin: I have a couple of questions and another ... (inaudible.) OK? Here's my first question.
I want .a straight talk conversation with you.
Sure.
Harvin: I want to know why I got the letter.
The letter being...
Harvin: The 45-day letter. I've heard a lot of rumors. I've heard you being quoted as saying different things. And.. .uh....I'd like to know from you .... if you made the decision, i made the decision, if ldade the decision, if made the decision', I mean I've heard all kinds of stories. And I'd like to know the truth.
And I'd like to talk about it so I can...
1MWI'm the only one that said that you had to. leave. You know, the only discussions I've had with... never any discussion wit. nd uh maybe one discussion with dnd maybe twice I had discussions withINNINSEG and retiied several years ago],
Harvin: Harvin: wow....
- ,wow
It*
,ill*The discussion is always along the lines like 'How long is Kymn Harvin going to be with you?' It was always about that, it was never them suggesting, ------- any way shape or form about yourself.
Harvin: OK, that's good to know. I appreciate that.
- And..uh..I think in the last couple of years there's a conversation witli mnd
' uh, and I'm not quite sure how we got into it other than I may have been going over the organization chart with him, that, you know, he said, "How long is she going to be with you?" So I mean it's like that. You know, so the ... uh ... you know, the people working here, right, the nice thing about me is I work formw Harvin: Right.
"I . So, they don't have a say in anything other tha r And the wavA toes business is, "You've got the job."
Harvin: Right.
W So that's (inaudible).
Harvin: OK. So, tell me your thought process.
. Uh... my thought process is...-.two-fold, and that's (inaudible), if we are going to downsize the organization and downsize it significantly...
And trying to benchmark processes And compare numbers of people to do processes And how many-people it takes to do a process. We get down to some number And before we go after the line, right?, we cut the staff. And that's the IT initiative, the stuff tha rn doing, and that's what I'm doing. So it's just that I don't wantto be, I don't want to be in'the position of having to downsize the Union without having the leanest, and leanest may be the wrong word, without having.any management organization that you know either get better now or. We will never end up where Fossil's going...
And then the second issue is just it is time for the guys to stand on their own two feet..
We've given them everything---we've given a lot of individual training, Leading in the 21"s Century, Supervisors Aca.,..given them a lot of training, right? And you've given them a significant amount of coaching. And we've done stuff with Gap [Gap International, a consulting firm]. Its just time. They've got todo it. So that's two (inaudible).
Harvin: OK, so it's not ..not uh...personal, in that sense.
Right. It's no can do cause you either need the function or you don't need the function.
Harvin: Yes, so here's my concernlsA few things ... one is... leadership and accountability remain our issue, there's no disputing that. They, they contract with somebody, pay him $25,000, he comes in for less than 10 days, writes a two friggin' page report, gets $25 grand, and he does nothing. And...
- ° Wh:ose this?
Harvin:
1 And he, you know and I said this to U.. ,,. IIsaid, 'He's doing my'job..and lie did nothing."
And even last night he said I got a two page report fro $25,000 and I said, yeahmyou
.better be squawking. You got nothing. Right? And then they go to lq*rganization to bring in an outside consultant to work with Chemistry. So-the need-is clear and fiankly and why I wanted to hear from you and I appreciate your candor is I believe, and you can tell me I'm wrong, but I believe I'm an incredible asset to the new leader to help him..um... with the learning curve that it takes to come in and turn this organization around. And so, urn.. .I wanted to know....if* -ias the latitude, if you made the decision, could he choose to'keep me if he waiited'to.
10 sure .coulddo anything that le wants to do.
Harvin: OK, I needed, I needed to know whether that was the case -because, when I came here five years ago, it was because I was committed to this being a great place to work for 1800 people. And it's not yet.
Harvin: And...
- PBu M Pot coming here to turn anything around.
Harvin: Well, Ah .... maybe that's not the right word., But we certainly want to move forward.
We want to continueon'the path, yes. But, uh...you know, I don't believe you can help us get ourcritical issues out. Yes, there's still accountability and leadership, yes I understand that: Our issues are toe-to-toe, knock-down, drag-out with the Union. It is purely implementation of the Union contract. And you can't help in that arena, you're actually a detriment in that arena. And so, you know, there isn't a need for you there and that's where, for me, the issues lie. And I expect that where fore is, but I don't know what he's going to do. As far as the other guys, I think that *_and mostly* ando implement the leadership that's needed, to hold the people*'
accountable, and coach, mentor and kick ass as appropriate,
- I They need to replicate themselves. That's the way I see it. That's kinda the thought process I go through and say I don't need your organization anymore.
Harvin: uh-huh.
- t's a lot of things, right, but it boils down to those two. The end gam-ie, to help us a little bit, is getting the accountability is downsizing, it's not downsizing the Union wouldn't like that, it's just where everyone else is.
Harvin: I understand that.
J *And in the sense that you've done a good job, you did your best, no one is more committed than you are, and it's over. Will. will have a time .... ? Yes, I'm not close enough to i ianagement style to know whai he did at PPL or (inaudible). I know that PPL (inaudible) those guys utilized the same fellow that01IJ utilizing for the Power-initiative. There's great stuff to be done. (inaudible) He's 'utilizing several times in the past (inaudible) .....I don't have any sense at all where he's....
Harvin: OK. s you probably know, I haven't left. I continue to work and when I wake up every morning I know I don't have to come to work. And a lot of people who get these letters don't come back. They don't come to work. And, um, I just wanted to hear from you what the thought process is so that I can choose, you know, what I do from here.
Um .... different issue, okay?
What do we do?
We don't do anything, because you know, it's everything you'd expect to see. It's a bunch of bullshit. You know, even using words like that, you know. I mean you've got an operator that doesn't know shit from shy-no-lah, saying .he's being pushed, right? And he's not putting out the effort to begin with, who is suddenly being pushed, and his natural response to you is to say, "I have to worry about safety. There are safety issues.
This is bad, you know." And no matter how miany sheets of paper you lay out I would say to carry out the evolution that I've asked you to do, right, you take four times the industry average. It doesn't land. They, they retreat into their defensive shells, it is not unlike a guy fills out a performance appraisal on a craft worker, and the craft worker files a .
grievance for each one of the goddamn, who has to respond to them? Their supervisor.
And the craft (inaudible) and then the craft comes back and says... um... makes a phone call to the Integrity Hotline and now he's being investigated.
Call from' e homeland security You've got a management team over there that is concerned about how we are making decisions....
. .1 .-1.
I appreciate you coming over.
Kymn leaves and comes back in.
Harvin: I have a question.
dJI Yes.
Harvin: I don't want to leave without... 2(inaudible). So piece this together for me. OK?
INPO [Institute of Nuclear Power Operations, which provides oversight of all nuclear plants in the USA] comes in, WANO [World Association of Nuclear Operations, which provides oversight of all nuclear plants in the world] comes in, WANO comes in, and gives us a strength in Organization Effectiveness. Right? And...
- 4% I mean, that's what they are going to do?
Harvin: No, they did .... in the fall...it's in the report.
MAMiWell, OK. Yeah, they weren't (inaudible) in organization effectiveness. They were an ineffective organization.
Harvin: Well, it was .... that was a strength we got.. .in the Organization Effectiveness category.
- would characterize it as a course in solving the leadership problem.
Harvin: Right. And, I'm told, by them and by the Vice Presidents, that I played a hute role in that. And that without me, we would not have gotten that Strength.
So, and you get heralded as a quote-unquote "enlightened leader' for having me on your team. So, how is it that four months later, you say, "I don't need you anymore."
Uh .... well ... you can look at it a lot of different ways, right? Uh ... I didn't believe what they were saying, right, and that the people that were saying it from the the crowd, don't have ceedibility, 1and INPO front Did they believe what they said or did they like react to a lot of effort and salesmanship that was put forth and write that up in the sense of we have to come out here and we've got to find some good things to write about as well as we've got to find out other areas for improvement. Now what did they respond to when they wrote that? And I believe they responded to We've got to come away with some things that areunique and different here.. .and write about them. And that's what they did. That's what they did.
Harvin: And you think it's untrue?
( , ^x Yeah, I don't, I think it's untrue in the sense of there's no effect. Yes, I think it's untrue. .You know, and I've not spent any time at all with* right, but he strikes me as a more of a down-to-earth type of guy. I could.. .what's the guy's name? In charge of the WANO team?
Halvin: Young guy?
N'11.ftNo, no, the guy who .....(inaudible).....
Harvin: (inaudible).* No...
IA ad said that, that would have been worth a nickel. That would have been worth a nickel.
Harvin: The VP who retired, that guy?
The guy who said that they are not a 2 they are a 3 and let's make it happen.
Now if he had said that, it would have made a difference, it would have been like, real as opposed to aving to find a number of items to speak positively about, saying this is one of those. That's how I see it, probably coming from the dark side. I've known
.~ '.or the past 20 years.
Harvin: OK, you can see how I would be left wondering, right?
A I eah. Yeah.
Harvin: ..... So, not that I am going to do this, but if you got a letter from him saying that he thought that was one of our strengths, I'm notgoing to go that route, but you get.. .I had no idea you didn't believe them.
SAnd uh... well, you've got to remember they come in and they come in and don't really know what's happening, kinda like the four of them sitting there saying, (inaudible).. .Isn't life good.. .Isn't life good.(inaudible)... And they pull out this book, right, and saying "I think life sucks."
Which world is true? Right? Well...
Harvin: They are both true.
Both true, right. But this says you're cruising for a bruisin', you're cruising for a brUisin'; and this says the other things (inaudible) .... to me that's analogous to what they are saying the fact that they give us a Strength on leadership. Yeah, I got they wrote that but it's not there. (inaudible) It's not real in the sense that (inaudible).
Harvin: Okay. Thanks for solving the mystery.
I do appreciate the dialog.
F-arvin: Thanks.
- I I 1