ML061800211
| ML061800211 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 10/26/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1190 | |
| Download: ML061800211 (71) | |
Text
W1 I MAIM a I c1II4LI 1116 %ra a a NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Interview 0 Title I..;'
.7-
~
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Docket Number:
Location:
1-2003-051 F Hope Creek Nuclear Power Station Date:
Sunday, October 26, 2003
,Work Order No.:
NRC-1190 Pages 1-69 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 inlormatiotn in ttuis record was deleted in accordance with the Freedom of :nformatfou, Act, exempUons -2 (c
-1 it
,ý4 A
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATED OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS INTERVIEW
x IN THE MATTER OF:
INTERVIEW OF
-7N (CLOSED)
- Docket No.
- 1-2003-051F x
Sunday, October 26, 2003 NRC Resident's Office Salem/Hope Creek Nuclear Power Station The above-entitled interview was conducted at 7:15 p.m.
BEFORE:
Special Agent Eileen Neff, OI/Region I ALSO PRESENT:
Dan Orr, Senior Resident Inspector NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 2
3 4
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7 8
9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES:
On Behalf of the Witness:
-2
) C NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
(7:15 p.m.)
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Today is
- Sunday, 4
October 26, 2003, at 7:15 p.m.
The location is the 5
NRC Resident's Office at the Salem/Hope Creek 6
Facility.
7 Speaking is Special Agent Eileen Neff, 8
U.S. NRC, Region I, Office of Investigations, and also 9
present is Dan Orr, Senior Resident Inspector.
This 10 interview will be wit an at Hope 11 Creek, and also a 17 Also present isim 12ý n %jELt~rom Hope 13 Creek.
14 And I, understand,.Wý,.
that your 15 presence here was requested by 17 16 i
That is correct.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And,)
18 you understand that you can proceed with us, 19 and it.is your desire to have a'.resent 20 here tonight? That's clear?
21 That is correct.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
I explained to 23 you before we went on the record that this is an 24 interview regarding your assessment of the safety 25 conscious work environment here on site.
That there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 are no subjects of investigation, and that you are 2
just being interviewed more or less as a witness to 3
the environment, and that there is no potential, 4
specific potential violation involved, and that is 5
understood?
6 W
Understood.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And we will 8
conduct the interview under oath.
If you would raise 9
your right hand at this time.
10 (Whereupon q,
as worn.)
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Would you, 7for 12 the record state your name, your full name, and spell 13 your last name?
14-15 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And your date of 17 birth?
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And your social 20 security number?
21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Thank you.
In 23 that we are looking for your assessment of the work 24 environment, the safety conscious work environment 25 specifically, I will go overall, do you have any NEAL R. GROSS
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1 concerns regarding the safe operation of this site?
2
-I That is a
very broad 3
question.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That is a very broad 5
question.
6 I mean, I took the watch 7
tonight, and so obviously I feel that the plant is 8
operating safely.
If I did not take the watch, I
9 would have had objections, which I did not have any 10 objections.
I don't know if that answers your i1 question, but it is such a broad question.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You are saying the 13 fact that you are being here, is that what you are 14 saying?
15is I took the watch as' the 16 of the plant tonight, and if I had 17 concerns, then I would have raised them or refused to 18 take the watch.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And in terms 20 of raising concerns, what I will ask you is what is 21 your assessment of the safety culture on site; and in 22 that, just consider do people feel free to raise 23 concerns?
24 Well, we have a notification 25 system, and in terms of a notification system, it will NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 do.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Do you use the 3
system to raise a concern?
Have any events occurred 4
that would cause somebody to hesitate to use the 5
system?
6 Situations have happened 7
where people say what is my boss going to think when 8
I write this up, but I don't thinl( that anybody has a 9
concern that they have not written up and put into the 10 system.
11 MR.
ORR:
So if you think that, do you 12 think they have ever come to the conclusion that I 13 won't write it up because my boss might think the 14 wrong thing about me, or use it against me?
15
- Well, it is human nature.
16 If I am going to write something saying that my boss 17 did whatever, and that was not the right thing, I
18 would think that my boss is not going to be too happy 19 about that.
20 So it comes into the thought process, but 21 I believe that people write up the problems that they 22 find.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And in your position aaýdo people come to you and say I 25 would rather you handle this.
I don't want my name NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 associated with something for fear or retaliation or some other hesitancy?
O--
I would say over the years that there have been people who have come to me and said, hey, I have this problem or whatever, and do you want to lead up this cause, in which case I would.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And is that a fear of retaliation for being associated with a concern that does that?
A fear of the possibility that the supervisor being mad, and taking some kind of retribution at some point, but when somebody comes to me with that, I tell them, okay, what is the issue, and you look at it.
And if I feel that it is valid, which normally I
would if somebody had that big of a
concern, and I would either write the notification, or bring it up to the supervisor, and then write the notification.
Or if it is not on my shift, get the shop steward on whatever shift and say, look, this guy has got a problem, and let's make sure that this is followed through.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And you had indicated that over the years.
Did it happen frequently?
Ail' NEAL R. GROSS f /
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1 It has happened over the 2
years.
I don't know that I would call it
- frequent, 3
but it has happened.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Did it happen 5
or are you saying that it changed, or does it happen 6
more frequently in the past, or less frequently in the 7
past, and more so now?
Is there any change in that 8
with the hesitancy for somebody else to bring 9
something forward; or every once in a while someone 10 would prefer for you to bring something forward?
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And how about for 13 you?
Do you personally feel that you are able to 14 raise a concern, to push any kind of a concern?
15
- If someone comes to me and 16 says this is a valid issue, and I have no concerns of 17 bringing it up to the supervision and writing a
18 notification, because that puts it in the system, and 19 it is in writing.
So then it has been identified.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
To get handled.
Can 21 you give some examples, and specifically do you have 22 any examples of a nuclear safety related concern that 23 you had to raise and the handling that that received?
24 1
I I can give an example, and 25 I
am sure that you are familiar with the Ofgas NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS j--
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (phonetic) issue.
MR.
ORR.:
Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Just give me a date for that, the Ofgas issue.
March 31st, I believe, of this year, is when I became involved in that issue.
MR.
ORR:
- Well, there is a few things going on right now.
There was where Hope Creek had an elevator off-gas for a period of time.
Yes, and that is the issue.
MR.
ORR:
And a refuel outage, but then there was also a -- well, there was a transient in the switch yard, right, where a celluloid valve fell to the transfer or the other off-gas train or something, and you lost your off-gas train for a period of time, right?
.Yes.
I was not on that.
I am talking about high off-gas flow.
MR.
ORR:
Yes.
Specifically, that was an issue that I became involved in.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And this specific event, what was your concern regarding that particular event?
- Well, I had watch that NEAL R. GROSS
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1 night, and the
) who I was relieving were not in a 2
happy mood because what had happened was our off-gas 3
had gone up in
- CFM, which is that the procedure says 4
do not operate above 75.
5 So when I got there, they guys were like 6
we are above 75, and I am taking the watch.
They 7
already have their books out, and saying it is above 8
75, and they had out the SR, which is the design 9
basis of the plant.
10 And procedure did not say what to do.
All 11 it said was do not.
Okay.
We are.
What does that 12 mean now.
We are above the limit, and so they went 13 into the SR and they found that it was saying in the 14 SR that it was a design basis of the plant.
So, okay, 15 we are outside of the design basis of the plant on the 16 0ff-gas.
17 So what they told me was that they had 18 tried talking to their shift supervisor and were 19 senior, and they were not getting a good response in 20 that, and they had gotten some response from the work 21 control supervisor 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Now the involved 23 are who?
24 I
think it was (inaudible),
25 but we could look that up to see who that was, but it NEAL R. GROSS
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1 was the hThey told me that 2
they got him involved and he seemed to be receptive to 3
their concern, and he was heading that up.
4 And he was trying to get a resolution on 5
that and in driving that, and that was-zý
ý 6
because I remember them saying, look, this guy has 7
been helping us out here to try to push this issue.
8 So after I looked at it, and I read the 9
procedures on it, the guys were telling me, hey, we 10 have got to do something.
Look.
This isn't right.
11 We feel that we are outside of our procedures, and it 12 has to do it off-gas, and we have a fuel defect, and 13 that's not the right recommendation to shut the plant 14 down because we are outside of our --
that is all the 15 information that I had, was that it was outside of our 16 design.
And I verbally told them for verification.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And who did you tell?
18
'awTwas the sM and 19 I believe it was-s--e 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: '
- 22.
L5I 1LCJJE and was the.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Now, let me 24 just go back a little bit.. On the shift before you, 25 the NCOs, the shift supervisor, and the senior, and NEAL R. GROSS K
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1 you are unsure of who they are, they didn't like the 2
response.
What was the response that they were 3
getting when they raised the issue?
4 They feel that it was not 5
getting the attention that they thought that it 6
deserved, and that is what they told me.
I mean, I
7 wasn't there, and so that is what they told me.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So you don't know if 9
it was any response at all, and whether they thought 10 it was getting the attention that it needed?
11
'C 7 7That's correct, except then 12 that they got involved and was telling 13 them, hey, this is an issue.
I am going to follow up 14 on this and start pushing it.
15 MR. ORR:
How about-990 16 were they receptive to your concerns?
17 I did not get the feeling 18 that they --
they understood that it was an issue.
19 MR.
ORR:
Right.
20 And they said, okay, now 21 they have brought in T.ARPeam to start looking at 22 it, and the team has it, and I wasn't --
my position 23 was that I am the guy with thfcenseJ and they guys 24 have the SRO license, and we control the plant, and we 25 should shut it down because we were outside our NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 design.
2 I mean, that is all the information that 3
I had in front of me.
Now, later on, they have done 4
an engineering evaluation and they said, well, 75 is 5
not really the limit.
You could go up to 150 because 6
we work with F-2 plants, but that night when we took 7
the watch, all the information that we had was that 75 8
was the limit.
9 MR.
ORR:
Okay.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Did you tell what 11 was your response wit ndthat you 12 are looking at the iTARC team, and looking at it is not 13 adequate in your opinion, because you were beyond the 14 design basis?
15 "P
/
- Yes, and then a
16 notification saying that we should shut the plant 17 down.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And what 19 happened then?
20 We were either at a level 21 one or level two, which is our higher levels, and we 22 have to present that to a senior.
So when it 23 up, I gave it to the
, which was and I 24 told him --
you know, I
have already told him my 25 opinion, and now put it in writing that we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 should shut the plant down.
2 And here it is, and it is a level one, and 3
his response is as I recall was I don't think it needs 4
to be a level one.
Make it be a level two.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Which makes it an 6
automatic shutdown?
7 No, no, the lower level is 8
the higher priority.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That I understand, 10 but in terms of the handling that it was going to 11 receive the level one and level two?
12 Level one or level two had 13 nothing to do with shutting the plant down or not.
It 14 is just the priority of whether it is a higher concern 15 or not a concern.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And did you agree?
17 If it was a level higher 18 than level one, and I would have made it higher than 19 level one, because I am telling to shut the plant down 20 as a 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And what did he say?
22 He just said that a level 23 two would be adequate.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And what happens next 25 with the TARP team?
Are they still looking at this?
NEAL R. GROSS
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1 The TARP team is still 2
looking at it, and then there was we were on the 3
floor of the plant, and th
,came out and we had 4
a discussion about the off-gas, and the situation, and 5
th**7 he which was 6
.and the*
7 And the our position was that we 8
were outside of our procedures and that we should shut 9
down because (inaudible), and no, and you shouldn't be 10 there.
And that has always been my philosophy.
11 I mean, it is not a nintendo game.
It is 12 a nuclear power plant' So if you don't know, you 13 should shut it down.
That is safe that way.
Now, as 14 I recall, he wasn't saying to shut the plant down, but 15 what he was saying very strongly was that by the FSAR 16 we were outside of our design,a nd therefore we 17 essentially are accepting a (inaudible) to our plant, 18 and that is probably not the best thing to do. So the 19 impression that I got from the*
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who is who?
21 The 22 impression that I got from him was that he certainly 23 agreed that we were outside of our design.
But I did 24 not hear him say that we should shut the plant down.
25 And you were asking me about an instance, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 and I was giving you an example.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Ultimately, what 3
happened here?
Did it get shut down at a certain 4
point in time, or --
5 lo No.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
No?
7 What happened was that they 8
did an engineering evaluation, and said that the flow 9
could go up to 150 and 75 was okay.
This was what 10 they got.
That was a Monday night, and the procedure 11 didn't get changed until Friday, which I worked 12 Thursday and Friday, day work, and I was the6 13 0
on those days.
14 So we had the morning meeting and at both 15 Friday morning and Thursday morning, and I don't 16 remember if you were there or not, but I brought it up 17 saying, okay, we have an engineering evaluation.
I 18 have got this piece of paper saying that I am okay, 19 but my procedure says do not do this what we are 20 doing, and we need to change our procedures, because 21 that is how we operate the plant, by our procedures.
22 And Friday afternoon, the procedure got changed.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And to 24 increase this to the zone where the flow would be 25 okay?
I ý 1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 To let the procedure say --
2 the procedure said do not operate above 75, and we 3
were operating at 95.
So they changed the procedure 4
to allow us to go to where we were.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Based on this 6
engineering evaluation?
7 That's correct.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Do you agree with 9
that?
10 The engineering evaluation?
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Yes.
Do you accept 12 it?
13 I accept the engineering 14 evaluation because the reason that I was told was that 15 it was designed for two plants.
So each one would be 16 75 and 150.
Okay.
I can buy that.
And maybe if I
17 took the watch if they said that.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If they had said that 19 sooner rather than later, you would not have had those 20 concerns throughout?
21 Okay.
Right.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That's what you are 23 saying?
24 That's correct.
If I had 25 been told that at six o'clock that night, that the NEAL R. GROSS
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1 reason that 75 is okay to go above, because the off-2 gas is really designed for two plants and not one, and 3
this SR was written with the likelihood that we were 4
going to have two, and not one, then it certainly 5
would have --
I certainly would not have had such a 6
concern during that first half of that shift until I 7
got an engineering evaluation.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
9 MR. ORR:
Did the senior reactor operators 10 do anything to respond to your concern or did they 11 seem genuine about your concern, or did they just 12 dismiss it and say we will just let the TARP deal with 13 it?
I am just trying to understand what their 14 response to your concern was, because in my mind, if 15 a reactor operator says to me, and if I am a senior 16 reactor operator that, hey, that is a pretty strong 17 statement coming from a licensed operator.
18 I agree.
19 MR.
ORR:
And whether it is right or 20 wrong, whether the plant needs to be shut down or not, 21 it is still a strong statement, right?
22 Correct.
23 MR.
ORR:
And so what was their response 24 to that?
Did they seem genuine with your concern, or 25 did they just dismiss it, or what?
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1 I
would say that they 2
recognized the concern with the response that 3
gave me, and that it does not need to be a 4
level one, and that certainly did not give me the 5
impression that they were taking my request at the 6
utmost seriousness.
7 But there was a
TARP
- team, and,"
8 was.gMMoing over there and 9
meeting with those guys, and I got a phone call from 10
- ..I that night asking me what is your II concern, you know.
12 And I read him the procedure, because he 13 was like, well, is there really a limit, and I was 14 like our procedure says do not --
and I said wait a 15 minute.
I've got the procedure, and I actually read 16 him what the procedure said.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And how did he 18 respond to that?
19
. He said we are looking into 20 it.
21 MR.
ORR:
Did 22
,*about your concern, or how did know that 23 you had this strong concern?
24 1, I do not know howe
- knew, 25 but I believe it was through the TARP team somehow.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
He was off-site when 2
he called?
He wasn't present?
3 U
He called me where he was, 4
and I don't recall --
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Did you see him at 6
all that night?
7 1,:(
I do not recall seeing 8
9 MR.
ORR:
But he might have been over in 10 the other room?
11
/ I don't know.
I don't 12 recall seeing him.
13 MR.
ORR:
Was that usual for him to pick 14 up the telephone and call the panel operators?
I am 15 trying to understand if it was out of the ordinary or 16 ordinary for him to have --
17 No, that is out of the 18 ordinary.
So somehow he was notified that this was 19 going on, whether it was through the TARP team or 2A i
20 called him.
I don't know.
That does show that at 21 least upper management was looking into it.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What about afterward?
23 Did you feel that you suffered any kind of criticism 24 or any adverse action, or any uncomfortable pressure 25 towards you for even raising the issue and saying this NEAL R. GROSS
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1 should be a level one and pushing it that way?
2 I would say no.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
The fact that this 4
was not ordinary for W'to call you and 5
say, hey, I hear that you have a concern, had anything 6
-- can you think of anything else happening like this, 7
where you had to push and say this needs to be a 8
notification, and --
9 the notification.
10 I mean, the 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
- Right,
ýhe 12 notification that night?
13 Correct.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But did you have 15 anything else eventual like this happen before?
Had 16 that happened before?
Can you think of any other?
17
- Well, to me this was the 18 most stressed that I can ever remember being in the 19 control room, because I don't remember being in a
20 situation equal to that, where I was saying, hey, you 21 have to shut the plant down.
22 MR. ORR:
How about issues of operability, 23 and degraded conditions on equipment, and equipment 24 operability.
25 Operability is determined by i/f NEAL R. GROSS 1 fI COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 the shift supervisor, and that is not -- as an 0I 2
don't determine operability.
I can give my 3
recommendations.
4 MR.
ORR:
Yes, I understand that.
But you 5
know of equipment issues, right?
So let's say you 6
have something affecting an RHR pump, right?
The 7
equipment operator tells you about it, right?
So you 8
know that the senior rector operator has got to 9
consider that and factor that into operability.
10 R ght.
11 MR.
ORR:
Any examples where you feel like 12 equipment issues were not properly characterized by 13 the SROs?
14 Well, we had diesel issues, 15 and I
am sure that you are familiar with diesel 16 issues.
17 MR.
ORR:
Yes.
18
- _ And at that time, I know 19 that there was a lot of concern about the operability 20 of diesels, and what I am specifically talking about 21 is when we had leaks.
22 MR.
ORR:
When was that?
23 When was that?
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
March.
25 May or June maybe.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I mean, it was this year.
When exactly, I would have to look that up.
MR.
ORR:
It was this year.
/It was June.
We had leakage of --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
June.
Not only (inaudible) leaks, but environmental conditions that guys had gotten sick being in their room with the diesel running, and (inaudible) and he had to leave because of something that happened at home, and (inaudible) and he blacked out on the way home, and he believed that it was caused from the fumes of the diesel.
So after that, we certainly --
I mean, we had numerous meetings with the company and the safety, and running the diesel in scubas, and (inaudible), and running a diesel is beyond the normal duties of an operator to run a diesel.
And if you are talking about an operability questionability, I would have to put that in that category.
MR.
ORR:
And were those being raised and not properly addressed, or reactor operators, or even senior reactor operators complain about the operation of the diesels, and --
(!y r)-
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1
- Well, I believe you were in 2
meetings with',me 3
MR.
ORR:
I was in meetings with the 4
industrial engineer.
5 I mean, we had discussions 6
with safety, and they were saying the C02 is fine, and 7
we were saying, okay, what else is there.
You know, 8
there has to be other gases, and maybe it is a
9 different gas that is affecting these people.
10 There is only so many liquids and what can 11 be made from these liquids, and I don't remember that 12 night specifically, but they said that C02 was the 13 only thing, or CO, and the equipment operator got on 14 the internet, and he found five other gases, and they 15 were like, oh, yeah, we could test for them.
16
- Well, we were like, well, then test for 17
- them, you know, because something is going on, and 18 let's not risk anybody.
So there was certainly a lot 19 of discussions about that and concerns about the 20 diesels and whether that is really the right thing to 21 do.
22 But there is anLCO time limit, and they 23 wanted to clear it up so that we can keep the plant 24 running.
I mean, there is electricity, too, and that 25 is part of the business, you know.
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1 MR.
ORR:
And can people feel free to 2
raise those concerns about the exhaust gases as such?
3 would have to say yes, and 4
I believe that there were numerous notifications 5
written on that, and even the supervisor who passed 6
out on the way home, he wrote that up.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
The way that you say 8
- that, and when you talk about electricity, it is 9
almost like you are saying just so I understand, that 10 they wanted to keep on going and there was anLCO time 11 frame there.
12 But do you see that as appropriate?
Was 13 there inappropriate pressure on keeping the plant 14 moving where they could have resolved where these 15 issues were with the gases?
16 There is certainly schedule 17
- pressure, and production pressure to keep the plant 18 making electricity, because it is a business, but the 19 reactor operator and the licensed operators have to 20 keep the big focus that we are running a nuclear 21 plant, and that if we have to shut it down, then we 22 should shut it down.
23 That the electricity should not matter to 24 us in the control room.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
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1 where when the plant should be shut down that it 2
doesn't get shut down?
3 Well, the only time that I 4
felt that way was with the off-gas, and like I have 5
told you, eventually they came up and testified that 6
it was okay.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
It seemed 8
like your concern was more up front, and that you 9
didn't get a good explanation of what was going on, 10 and what the plant does could be early enough, so that 11 you went through your shift with this concern.
12 That's correct.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But in terms of this 14 pressure as you understood it, it is a business, but 15 in order to keep the plant on line, are you saying 16 that you have not witnessed an inappropriate running 17 of the plant, such as a failure to shut down, or to 18 really start up whatever in order to keep production 19 where it shouldn't have been?
20 Or that should not have been the case and 21 have you seen any instances of that production over 22 the safe running of the plant?
23 We l, the only instance that 24 I feel that I have been involved in was this off-gas, 25 because when I brought that issue up, nobody said to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 me, well, you know, it is because it is designed for 2
two plants.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
4 And I don't know that 5
anybody knew that.
I mean, I have to believe that the 6
shift supervisor and the senior in the STA didn't know 7
that, or they would have said it, because I was being 8
very direct.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
You would 10 have expected it to be addressed in that way?
11 Right.
Well, you know, to 12 be told, hey, e understand your concern, but her 13 is why it is not a concern.
It was just, well, we 14 understand your concern.
Okay.
You understand my 15 concern, but let's shut the place down.
I mean, that 16 was my response.
17 Unless you tell me why we shouldn't, then 18 we should be shutting it down.
Now, as it turns out, 19 it was not --
it was okay engineering-wise, and it was 20 okay; but during that period of time it wasn't okay to 21 me anyway.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But it was not okay 23 to you, and you are questioning whether it was known 24 to your shift manager?
25 I believe it was not.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Because it would have 2
been --
then ne would have gotten enlightened at the 3
same time that you got enlightened?
4 That's correct.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So what is the 6
reason for being willing to be outside the design 7
basis?
What is the reason for that if they don't have 8
the comfort level that you didn't have either?
9 And this is well, that 10 would be an opinion, right?
I mean, that is not --
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I am just asking 12 where do you think it is coming from.
13 Some of our supervision 14 don't have all that much experience.
So they rely on 15 the direction, and this is just my opinion, on their 16 bosses.
And this is just my opinion, but they are 17 relying on people that don't have licenses to run the 18 plant.
They don't have that responsibility.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
At what level is the 20 lack of experience?
Are you talking about the 21,"
?
22 jWhich is the
- well, 23 this wag:;
---*.M He doesn't have a whole lot of 24 experience.
I don't want to paint as I don't 25 like him.
I like
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1 lot of experience.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So he relies on the 3
next level above him, and not a licensed level?
4
- Well, he was relying on 5
whoever was over there in that TARP team.
That is the 6
impression that I got.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What position would 8
have been running that TARP team then?
Can you put a 9
position or a name with it?
10 Well, it might have been, 11
/iand he might have been over there.
Like I 12 said, he called me --
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So, 14 15 He might have been the guy 16 who was over there.
I do not know, but I know that he 17 called me.
So he might have been over there.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
At some point then 19 that night he was involved, and you know that?
20 That's correct.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So --
22 And with all of that said, 23 s not here anymore.
I
- mean, we have 24 who I believe is a different as 25 more experience.
That is my impression.
And just to NEAL R. GROSS
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 give you that bit of information, we have had a change in upper management.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That is understood.
Is it that you are saying that is the I..........
AZWVU
_"e is relying on Did he have a lack of experience, and yet doesn't have the experience?
Is that where we are here?
/ That was my opinion.
- Now, whether it was ver there, I do not know who was over there.
But I believe he was relying on theTARP
- team, and I know that alled me, and so I am thinking that he was probably over there, but I don't know that.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
What about any 7
other decisions that you have seen come from'v orl that you would question on the running of the plant?
Can you think of anything else?
I know this one weighed heavily.
7j*Right.
That one weighed --
and like I
- said, I
have never experienced that situation, and that's why it is in my mind, because it did weigh heavily on it.
I am not on*iu_.__
shift, and so I don't work with him on a day to day basis.
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1 I would recommend that if you wanted to 2
know that you could talk to the NCOs or the shift 3
supervisors on this shift.
But I
am sure and I 4
believe that there could be more examples given, not 5
of this magnitude, but of decisions, safety decisions 6
probably.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
You just don't 8
know of anything further that you think might be 9
there?
10 1
I don't have personal 11 experience because I am not on that shift.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
13 But again, if you talk to 14 the people on that shift, I believe you could probably 15 get examples.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
What shift is 17 this one?
18
- lip, 19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
You are 20 pointing to this as a concern for you in keeping the 21 plant running inappropriately, because they could not 22 explain at an earlier point in time that it shouldn't 23 be shut down?
24 That's correct.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And under the NEAL R. GROSS
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1 circumstances that you understood at that time, it 2
should have been shut down?
3 iJThat was my opinion.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And you are 5
also portraying it as the only one that comes to mind 6
in terms of this keeping production over clearly where 7
you had to go in another direction at that point?
8 That's correct.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Had you become aware 10 at any time of other instances where it was --
where 11 the decision was made to keep production going over a 12 safety concern, or over an operating status that you 13 should not have been in of other people?
14 Did you become aware at any point in time 15 that other people had this production over safety 16 concern, even if you thought that it was not a valid 17 concern?
18 You are pointing to this one as one for 19 you, but are there more out there that other people 20 had, even though you might have thought, well, that 21 really is not what happened here?
22 Well, as far as keeping the 23 plant running and production, I guess I would have to 24 put the diesel into that category, because there was 25 numerous people that thought --
and it is certainly NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 questionable in my mind whether running a diesel in 2
scuba and you can say that diesel is
- operable, and 3
that that is okay, and that that is going to provide 4
all you need.
5 Because in order to check it, you are 6
going to have to put a scuba on.
To me, that went 7
beyond the line of to say that, okay, that piece of 8
equipment is a good piece of equipment.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And where was that 10 coming from?
Where were the decisions being made on 11 that?
12 And this is only my opinion, 13 but --
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I mean a level with 15 a name?
Who was involved?
16 I would say and I 17 was not involved in conversations, but I was told 18 about conversations.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And who would 20 know directly".;
21 The meetings that we had were 22 wiadwh**an what is his name?
23 our 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
(
is an 25 Al NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 Yes.
2 Yes, and,"
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
. Can you say his-name 4
again?
5 It is actually like 6
or something, but I am not sure how to 7
pronounce it.
8
=
He is our 9
But he is not here anymore 10 either.
He was their/'environmenta t-- there is a
11 specific term for it.
Oh,
,I 12 think is what they were billing him as.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
14 And he is the one that told us 15 that there was nothing else besides that.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And when you say he 17 is not here either, is here?
18
'Yes.
19 Ys 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And he is one of the 21 other people who has since been gone?
22 Yes, he went on to --
I forget 23 where he is working now.
24 He still works for PSE&G 25 doesn't he?
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1 I think he went north.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Do you have 3
any other firsthand information regarding the diesel 4
leak in June?
When I asked you if you were aware of 5
any situation where people thought it was production 6
over safety issue, this. is what you came up with.
7 j
There was --
well, the leak 8
was known months, and months, and months before, and 9
it was thought that the repair was going to take 10 greater than 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br />.
So that we did not have enough 11 time to fix the diesel.
12 So when we found that the leak was so bad, 13 and I remember having a discussion with who 14 is the 1,11 '
and when they found out 15 that --
they relooked at it, and found out that they 16 could do the repair in a less amount of time that 17 would have fit in the window, I said, okay, good.
18 Then we can do it.
19 And we didn't have the parts to fix it, 20 and so we couldn't do it, which I can remember.
I 21 mean, that disturbed me from wait a minute, diesels 22 are very important for the shutdown of the plant, and 23 we should always keep the priority high on them, and 24 how can we not have the parts.
25 I don't know where I am going with this NEAL R. GROSS kt S:.'
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1
- point, except that I had that discussion wit.
2 bout keeping or fixing the diesel.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And you should have 4
had these parts on hand?
5 iy And we should have had the 6
parts.
We had months, and months, and months to know, 7
and we didn't do it.
We didn't keep that as the 8
priority.
9 MR.
ORR:
I don't believe you will find 10 anyone that would say that that situation was handled 11 well.
12 Well, I am sure that the 13 company is not happy with that at all.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Anything else, 15
- ny other issues where -- and even if you didn't 16 think it was a production over safety directive, per 17 se, other people thought so?
18 I am sure that there is, but 19 none are coming to mind, you know.
Over the years, I 20 am sure, but I cannot think of any at this time.
21 MR.
ORR:
On the diesel generator do you 22 know if anybody believed that the diesel generator 23 should be considered inoperable because of undue 24 pressures or perceived pressure that they did not 25 declare the diesel generator inope.table?
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1 I have to believe that there 2
are numerous people that did not think that the diesel 3
was operable.
But the call is made by the shift 4
supervisor.
I mean, that is who makes the call.
5 MR.
ORR:
Those numerous people, do you 6
think they include senior reactor operators?
7 Yes, but that is just my 8
opinion, but I mean, the guy who is running the shift 9
that day is the guy who makes the call.
10 MR.
ORR:
Right.
1l-SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And had you heard 12 that from anybodyJW that there was undue pressure 13 on anyone to not declare them inoperable?
Is it 14 something that you think might be there, or is it 15 something that somebody told you?
16 I do not remember being told 17 by any SROs, that they thought that the diesel was 18 inoperable.
I do have to say that I don't think that 19 anybody I think that it was an understood thing 20 that they were going to declare i
=>noRerable, and we 21 were going to keep running it.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And that's why you 23 are saying that nobody would think that this was 24 handled well?
25 Correct.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And it is fairly well 2
documented is it?
3 4
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
5 And I think that the company 6
also recognizes that it was not handled correctly.
I 7
- mean, I don't think that would be a surprise to the 8
company.
I mean, if you brought company people in 9
here, I don't think that they would say, oh, that is 10 a fine way, and we would handle it the same way again, 11 because it was not handled correctly.
I think that 12 everybody agrees with that.
13 MR.
ORR:
I would like to ask him if at 14 the time if it was Charlie or Delta Diesel if it would 15 be operable, and I would think they would say that it 16 would be inoperable.
That is my opinion, but I am 17 just saying it is a bigger window for Charlie and 18 Delta.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
20 MR.
ORR:
I mean, they had three people 21 get sick over this.
- 22.
And one went to the hospital..
23 (went to the hospital and was on the verge of 24 passing out in his ca:I....
25
- Well, he did pass out.
He NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 blacked out.
2 And it should not have taken 3
as long as it did to get it fixed.
And my personal 4
opinion from the meeting that I was in with you,Ja 5
and with the safety and our boss, I felt that the 6
answer that came out of that meeting was misconstrued.
7 The reason that iSUB ame into play is 8
because he said to get me to go in that diesel room 9
with it
- running, you need me to be in aSUEB 10 basically.
We came back to work, and it was that the 11 Union said that it was all right to run it in an/SUBAL 12 That is what I heard.
13 But it is not the same at 14 all.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
No, it is not the 16 same thing.
He was making some sort of exaggerated 17 statement and they took it literally and said here you 18 go.
19 MR.
ORR:
That is my take on it.
I 20 couldn't talk to people that day.
I was very, very 21 mad.
22 I believe that was the A 23 shift who actually ran it, right?
So if you wanted to 24 talk to somebody about the diesels, it would be the A 25 shift.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who was involved in 2
the decision that took it and twisted it that way?
3 I can't say.
I only know who 4
we were in a meeting with, which was IiM 5
I don't know how that meeting translated to the next 6
meeting of just supervisors, or however, and then came 7
back.
It could be an honest thing where it was just 8
a game of telephone, and it was mistranslated on the 9
other end.
I would like to believe that.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Your 11 assessment of the culture here, and we will talk 12
- about, let's just say, in the past six months to a 13 year or so, do you see any strengths in the safety 14 culture here?
15 On every shift, we have a 16 shift safety rep, a union guy, and I like to think 17 that that is a strength, because at least there is 18 somebody on shift who is the safety guy to go to union 19 wise, and so he should not be able to be pressured.
20 But sometimes there is pressure, but I 21 like to think that is worth having at Salem/Hope 22 Creek.
I like to think of that as a good thing, 23 because then it is somebody anybody can go to and say, 24 hey, look, take a look at this from safety, and see if 25 we are really doing the right thing.
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1 We had a guy get hit in the head with a 2
wrench.
When was that, last year, right?
3 About 3 years ago.
It was 4
- 2001, I believe.
5 2001?
6 Right, March.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Was this a near fatal 8
accident?
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And where they made 11 some sort of an adjustment, and was not using 12 equipment like he was supposed to be?
Is it something 13 that he made an adjustment to?
14 It was a tool that was 15 adapted, and it was used by everyone.
That could have 16 been anyone.
He didn't do anything different than 17 everybody else.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
It is the way that 19 the equipment was being used?
20 It wasn't the proper use for 21 that tool, but that is what we did.
I did it, and I 22 am sure that you did it.
I mean, everybody did it, 23 and it could have been anybody, and he got hit in the 24 head.
There have been precursors that we should have 25 stopped at, but we didn't.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And after that happened, I think that there was certainly a step change in safety from everybody, because everybody knew that this guy almost died.
So from a personal safety, there was --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Like an occupational point of view, there is more of a focus on safety on the job?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So those are some strengths that you are talking about, and I don't know why we didn't get a date for that incident.
W-! I believe it would be around March or February of 2001, because I was on at the same time.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So, 2-1/2 years ago.
And has that remained?
Has that focus stayed pretty tight on that since?
I think that from a personal point of view that the guys realized that you have to be responsible for your safety and watch what you are doing.
And if you don't feel that you are doing something right, stop.
I mean, last night, we had something where it was a tie out, and the guy just said I can't get to there.
Okay.
No problem.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
No
- problem, no 2
pressure?
3 No, none at all When we 4
send the guys out, hey, if you find something, come on 5
back.
If it is not right, don't put yourself in a
6 personal risk situation.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Part of what you just 8
mentioned before when you said that there is a safety 9
on each shift.
10 A safety rep.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
A safety rep on each 12 shift, and you said or you kind of indicated that 13 sometimes there is pressure on those individuals.
14 What kind of pressure are you talking about?
15 Well now I am going to 16 speak about 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
We are on Side 18 B, and it is approximately 8:10 p.m.
Okay.
You were 19 going to mention an incident regarding a safety rep, 20 I think?
21 Yes, and I was not present, 22 but it just happenedwithin the last two weeks.
So it 23 is fresh in my mind because guys have told me what has 24 happened, and so it is not firsthand.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Just tell me NEAL R. GROSS
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 who is involved and what happened, and we will go from t-here_
/ Okay.
It was and it was a
switch yard
- tagging, and we have interlocks out in the switch yard that are there for personal protection.
So the interlocks prevent somebody from closing on the ground on a live wire, and a key broke off, and they wanted to bypass the interlocks so that they could continue switching.
And the shift safety rep said no, we are not going to do that, and it was certainly pressure, and a lot of discussion to try to get them to do that.
Now it'did not happen.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And who is t.-
It was I And this was Wednesday or Thursday of this week.
- Yes, a couple of days ago.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the pressure would have been from the-That is my understanding.
Again, I was not there, but that is my understanding.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the end result was that it didn't get done, and they did not bypass NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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.1 the interlocks?
2 It did not get done.
But 3
there was certainly a lot of back and forth is my 4
understanding to try to get them to bypass the 5
interlocks, because --
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Because why?
7
- Well, again, I
was not 8
there, but the quote is that the procedure says that.
9 The procedure does not say that I can't bypass the 10 interlocks.
11 IThe switching was --
12 S.
so the mission was that does 13 not mean that you can.
The safety rep said, no, we 14 are not bypassing the interlocks because that is there 15 for our safety.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the point of 17 bypassing the interlocks would gain somebody what?
18 You could finish the tagging 19 release.
20 I
actually got the story 21 pretty well firsthand, and not from M
22--
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Have you been 24 intervieweý yet,lo 25 NEAL R. GROSS COYRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 11323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
2 But I am
'11" and-3 4
MR.
ORR:
Well, the switching, was it to 5
bring a line back in or to take a line out?
6 jThe 2 to 6 breaker had been 7
taken out, and so they wanted to restore it just to 8
restore grid stability is my understanding.
But the 9
idea was to -- once they broke the key off, he wanted 10 to get the job done, and his idea was and this 11 beinzn ri that if I bring the breaker back, 12 the grid is more stable.
That was his logic.
13 The error in his logic is that our safety 14 procedures say for key interlocks, which is the safety 15 interlocks in the switch yard, shall not be overridden 16 unless you have --
there is like three things.
17 But one of them well, basically the 1i only thing that applies to operability is emergency 19 situations.
So if I needed a switch to take something 20
- out, I would imagine that would be the only way I 21 would have to do that, and I think it was just the 22 wrong mind-set, where you could do it, but you don't 23 have to do it.
So you shouldn't do it.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
25 I don't think that he was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 trying to do anything to put anybody in jeopardy, and 2
I don't think he was -- and this is my opinion, but he 3
just was not seeing that just because I have the 4
ability to do it, the conditions don't warrant me 5
doing it.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
It did not apply to 7
this situation that you had?
8 That is my from the story 9
that I got, that is my take on it.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If the interlocks 11 aren't bypassed, and the stability to the grid then is 12 in question or left the way that it was, does t
/
13 have to do something?
Is he required to take some 14 action, something else?
I mean, what effect does it 15 have?
16 WW
- Well, the grid is not 17 unstable because the breaker is open.
18 Right.
19 But if there is another 20 fault, you could lose some sections.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Then you might have 22 a probjem?
23 That's correct.
So if 24 another fault happens while you have that --
25 Then you may lose something.
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1 (I
then you might lose 2
something, a piece.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I see, and so he was 4
trying to prevent it from going into the next level?
5
- Yes, if there was a fault, 6
but I mean, it was tagged out for work, and it wasn't 7
that it was broken and tagged out.
It was a scheduled 8
maintenance, and --
9 They just wanted to bring it 10 back in the window.
11 just like we do scheduled 12 maintenance on the plant, and we say, okay, it is 13 better to take this piece of equipment out and work on 14 it, and then put it back in for overall stability.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
16 Now during that period of 17
- time, you don't have that piece of equipment, but 18 overall it is better.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And that is the way 20 to do it?
21 Absolutely.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
How much time --
you 23 know, when you are talking pressure?
Was it just him, 24 or was there somebody else involved, or how much time 25 was this debate going on over we will not bypass the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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1 interlocks?
2 To my knowledge, I would say 3
it was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of half 4
the shift.
I don't know when it was supposed to come 5
back, and they did resolve it within their shift, and 6
so assuming it was not the first thing in the morning, 7
which switching usually isn't, and they did resolve 8
it.
9 I mean, they put the paper in front of 10 him, and he realized, yeah, okay, this is something 11 that I didn't look at.
So to my knowledge, that took 12 care of it.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And you 14 brought this up answering my question about pressure 15 on safety during shifts.
Do you have anything else 16 that you can think of?
That type of thing?
17 Nothing comes to mind at 18 this time.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And in terms 20 of weaknesses in the safety culture, do you see 21 anything there that could be done better; and again, 22 that is considering are people encouraged, and are 23 they willing to raise concerns, and do they use the 24 appropriate avenues they are supposed to, whether it 25 is going to a
supervisor and documenting a
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1 notification, or going to ECP?
2 Are you considering that, or is there 3
something that could be made stronger?
Do you see 4
weaknesses?
5
ýWellfor the strong side, 6
I think people do identify problems and they bring 7
them up, and they write notifications if there is a
8 safety issue.
9 To make it a weakness, I would say again 10 would be the experience level of some of our 11 supervision.
Just not having the experience, you 12 don't have that history of okay, in this situation 13 here is the danger.
You have to stay out of that.
14 They just don't have a lot of experience, and that is 15 just my opinion.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You brought up two 17 instances involving and do you 18 have that for anybody else, and any concerns about 19 anybody else?
20 Well 21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Or is there a certain 22 level of experience that you would say that if you 23 have X-number of 24r(
- Well, it is not just 25 experience in that position, but where you gained your NEAL R. GROSS fl COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 experience.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Site specific?
3 The site or in running a 4
- plant, any kind of plant, and just having the 5
experience of running a plant.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Well, what level is 7
your concern?
I am trying to get an idea of where you 8
are going.
How high of a concern is this for you, if 9
you are saying that your shift managers don't have 10 adequate experience, on a scale of 1 to 10, are you 11 low, at a one, or are you pretty upset about it at a 12 10? Where would you put that?
13 The limit that I have is 14 that I don't see -- well, if they move some guys out 15 who would they put in there.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So you see no backup 17 experience; is that what you are saying?
18
'§3 There is
- some, and this is 19 just my opinion again, but on shift I don't know that 20 there is a lot of experience that could step in and 21 make it stronger.
There is some experience off-shifts 22 that could certainly I think make it stronger if they 23 were put in the positions.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What do you mean, 25 like their work management or something?
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1S.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
They are in another 3
location?
4 MR.
ORR:
Are you talking about -- just to 5
clarify, because you keep saying our supervision, and 6
you keep saying shift managers.
Are you talking about 7
the'OS's or the CRS's?
8 I was talking about OS 9
level, but there is also some 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Shift manager and OS 11 would be one and the same, right?
12 0
That is correct.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Two titles.
14 7 And the CRS is the control 15 room supervisor.,
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the CRS 1is a 17 level below that?
18 Right.
And there is some 19 new guys in that position, too, but to me that does 20 not bother me as much as the seniors, because the 21 senior is he is the SRO who is responsible for the 22 overall responsibility.
23 So having a
weakness in the senior 24 position is certainly --
it hurts the operation of the 25 plant more than a weakness in a CRS.
That is my NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS i
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1 opinion.
- Now, you asked me about other weaknesses, 2
and (phonetic),
he was the 3
involvdd, and I am sure you know with that power of 4
discouraging on that, and I would certainly put him in 5
that category.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Less experience?
7 He has more experience than 8
but I would certainly put him in that area of 9
a level of concern.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
That was a 11 different March incident; is that what you are talking 12 about?
13 Yes, that was earlier.
It--
14 was a power excursion when they were doing a test, and 15 there was a bolt stuck in a bypass valve, and they 16 were using a test, and they didn't go over the 17 termination criteria.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And incidents thai 19 you are concerned about with this if not lack of 20 experience, but weaknesses in the,: OS
- level, for 21 whatever reason, for experience or whatever, what else 22 adds to your concern?
Do you have other events, or 23 poor decisions made?-
24 Well, like he was 25 during that special test, and he was the guy leading NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 that, and it ended up where it shouldn't have been.
2 So that is an example that sticks in my mind.
3 But if you wanted discussion ono 4
phonetic), you should talk toEcho Shift, and 5
that is whose shift that is.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
People who are 7
working directly with him?
8 TThat's correct.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
What about any 10 other people?
That is one, and a pretty significant 11 one.
12 I would say right now we 13 don't have an ops manager, and we have not had one for 14 almost 2 months, and that is a hole in the leadership 15 that should be filled, and there is nothing that you 16 guys can do about that, but you are asking me, and so 17 I am giving you my opinion.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
And 19 specifically regarding the safety culture and the way 20 it
- works, and how concerns are handled, is there 21 anything else there that you see that would be in your 22 opinion a weakness?
23
- Well, in my
- opinion, 24 conservative decision was always something that was --
25 or most, I mean, and I am a believer in that, that you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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1 run the plant safely by being conservative, and it 2
seems acceptable risk now is the key phrase, instead 3
of conservative decision.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Since when?
5 Acceptable risk.
- Well, 6
within the last year-and-a-half in my estimate.
7 MR.
ORR:
Did you hear that term being 8
used by anyone?
9 I
think they used risk 10 assessment.
11
§ Right, and acceptable risk 12 management, and --
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
- Well, what is risk 14 assessment and acceptable risk?
15 Right.
- Well, I mean, there 16 is acceptable risk.
I mean, there is, and when we 17 take a diesel out and tag, and the diesel didn't have 18 anything wrong with it, and we have decided to take it 19 out because over the long haul, it is better to 20 maintain it and if we do it on line, compared to the 21 outage, and maybe our outages won't be as long.
22 But that is what we do, and that is 23 acceptable risk.
We have decided that we are taking 24 a perfectly good piece of equipment, and taking it out 25 of service, and from what I understand, we are not the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 only ones that operate that way.
All the nuclear plants do it, and so there is acceptable risk. There is risk assessment that happens, but it seems to me that is more discussed now than conservative decision making.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What brought about the change?
77 Well, I would have to say that it just didn't happen today.
Deregulation is real, and it is the competitive environment, and it is not a utility that is guaranteed a profit anymore, and even though their quasi is
- still, but that is certainly that it is a busy.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And you time it with that, just hearing more about acceptable risk and with the deregulated environment?
-/Yes, at that point, and then there was more.
Everybody wants to do the best that they can do.
I mean, if we can have shorter outages, then that's great.
If we can keep the plant running that's great, but our job is to keep the public safe.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Anything else?
No.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: About the environment or any comment on safety and how it works here at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 site?
And I am going to limit your comments to Hope
- Creek, or you are limiting your comments to Hope Creek?
111M INj7]Right.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You don't really have detailed knowledge on the Salem side, right?
j That's correct.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
I mean, I
talk to shop stewards over there sometimes, but I don't have the knowledge of Salem and all that goes on.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
It looks like you were going to say something else there.
No.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
The outspoken, are you considered someone who is an outspoken individual on site?
If you see a safety concern, you raise it?
Yes.
I don't know so much outspoken as I am certainly not afraid to bring up an issue.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
What about that
/ Because outspoken almost seems like it would be over the edge, you know.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Over the edge of?
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1
- Well, that you would be 2
almost bringing up things that aren't true concerns 3
maybe.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Oh, you mean making 5
concerns out of nothing?
6 Right.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
In order to just do 8
that for whatever reason?
9 Right, and that is why I am 10 saying that I believe I am somebody that brings up 11 issues when they need to be brought up, or somebody 12 else has a concern, and brings it to me, and I bring 13 it up.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And 15
- 1jbefore, maybe about 10 months ago.
I 16 think it was last December.
A trait that you 17 associated with the individual that I was talking to 18 you about, and that was that 19 specifically about an ja forme ere, who was --
20 the allegation involved discrimination for having 21 raised a safety concern, specifically regarding the 22 work clearance module and tag outs, and so forth.
23 And a word that you used to describe him 24 was outspoken, and you also told me that you --
25 i didn't mean that in a
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1 negative term when I said that.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Now I have to figure 3
out were you telling me outspoken in terms of making 4
concerns up that were not appropriate?
5 MRNo.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And in this instance, 7
I don't think so.
You saw this individual as an 8
outspoken individual, and you also told me that you 9
thought that based on what you heard from two people, 10 one being that individual, the and one being 11 another people i j.
12 that you believed that he had been retaliated against 13 because of that trait.
14 Correct.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And because he raised 16 concerns regarding the work clearance module.
17
- Correct, and that was 18 outspokenness in a good way.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
For that individual?
20 That's correct.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And was outspoken.
22 When we were talking about that, that was an event 23 that happened in 2000 is what we were talking about 24 for that individual.
25{
Correct._*^I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Are you aware of any 2
other situations like that where you feel the same 3
way, that somebody raised a concern, and in this case 4
it was a strong concern about a program that didn't 5
work, and there were safety concerns tied to it.
6 But you were telling me that you believed 7
that because of what he did in that instance, you 8
believe that there was retaliation involved.
9 Un-huh.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
There was 11 dgmgIminvolved in that situation who is still
- here, 12 and that would be' 13 Right.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF Do you see that as an 15 ongoing situation, where people who raise concerns 16 receive that type of treatment, whether it is from 17 or somebody below him?
/
18 Let me put it this way.
That was a 2000 19 situation.
20 Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Have you seen that 22 happen since that time to anybody else?
23
.(Not that comes to the front 24 of my mind, no.
I have not really given that a lot of 25 thought, and I would have to think about it.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I would like you to 2
think about it.
I mean, that is a situation where you 3
have somebody at the 57level who you think was 4
retaliated against for being outspoken, and it was 5
specifically regarding safety concerns.
6 Correct.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
It falls right into 8
the work environment issue.
I mean, you see what I am 9
looking at here.
10 Rgt 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Since that time frame 12 are you seeing similar things, or did that in any way 13 have an effect on how the behave and raise 14 concerns?
Do you see that as having some sort of an 15 adverse effect on anything?
16 And I am not saying that is what happened, 17 but it was your belief that is what happened here?
18 That was my belief, is that 19 is what happened, and do I see anybody who has been 20 retaliated against or know of anybody, and I would 21 have to say no that I can think of.
22 Do I think it affected the environment and 23 whether that affected the environment?
Well, I spoke 24 about inexperience more, and that is what I believe it 25 is, more so than they are afraid or intimidated.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So you just think 2
that it is inexperience in decision making?
3 In decision making, and 4
influenced by their bosses on production.
You know, 5
that we have to make money.
We are a business.
And 6
I think that that influences them.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
The combination of 8
inexperience and they don't know to resist the input 9
on the production?
10 From upper bosses for 11 production.
That is my opinion.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But you don't think 13 it is a hesitancy due to a fear of retaliation?
14 1I do not think so.
- Now, we 15 just had a hundred and some people laid off, and were 16 there people who were concerned?
I am sure there 17 were.
I am sure there was a lot of people concerned 18 in operations, in supervision, that were concerned.
19 Now as it turned out, nobody they 20 really didn't get rid of anybody, except one, I guess, 21 who now has a job.
But for a period of time there 22 when it was happening, where they were going through 23 this reorg, they didn't know that their jobs were 24 okay.
25 So there was certainly a lot of concern NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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1 for people for their jobs.
So when you are concerned 2
for your jobs, you are going to make sure that you 3
are doing whatever it is that your boss wants you to 4
do, you know.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Sure.
6 1"01 o I think that that period 7
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You want to be seen 9
in a favorable way.
10 j Absolutely.
When there is 11 going to be a job cut, you don't want to be the guy 12 bringing up negative things, or shutting the plant 13 down.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Do you know of any 15 that should have been raised that weren't because of 16 that environment when they were making cuts?
17 The only thing that comes to 18 my mind is what I have already explained, and I can't 19 think of another instance like that.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But in terms of what 21 we were just talking
- about, about this other 22 individual, where we had the prior contact about, you 23 can't think of anything else that has happened along 24 those lines?
25 It is a unique incident in your mind then NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that this happened to this one person?
I would have to go back years and years to think of another.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I guess I would not want you to go back too far beyond 2000, because that would be pointless.
< -That's correct.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
2000 forward though.
2000 forward, I cannot think of somebody being harassed or intimidated because of bringing concerns.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Can you think of anything I can't think of anything specific, that somebody was in trouble for bringing up concerns.
The only thing, like going back to that diesel thing, where I had heard --
and I had never actually heard it from an actual supervisor, or
- anything like that, but I had heard, and the feeling that I got from talking to the operators that ran it, is the reason that they ran SEBAs is because they were afraid for their job.
I have heard it to that effect that a ior manager and not an.ý-S-but a eni 0 they will run the diesel by a-eniori,-and at that point you NEAL R. GROSS
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1 are between a rock and a hard place.
2 Are you turning down work or are you in a
3 position where you are legitimately able to turn down 4
work.
So they ran them.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And at some point 6
from the meeting that you attended that involved union 7
people, and --
8 1', And that did not come out in 9
that meeting.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
No, but that there 11 was management meeting involving --
the name was 12 and this, 13 That is what we
- myself, 14 ere in one meeting.
/*
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
16
ýý 7L That was the night before 17 they ran it.
18 w
That was the night before they 19 ran it, and then just after the run, I heard from the 20 guys that it was not necessarily their choice to run.
21 SPECIAL AGENT. NEFF:
And where was it 22 coming from?
Who was making the decision at SCBA?
23 I don't even want to say what 24 I heard because it is like third-person.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Just put me on to who NEAL R. GROSS
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1 would know.
If we needed to follow up on something, 2
who do I follow up with?
3 A shift.
4 A shift.
Some of the safety 5
guys may know, too.
6 MR.
ORR:
We can find out.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Do you have enough 8
information on that?
9 MR.
ORR:
Yes.
10 shift.
11 MR.
ORR:
What month was that diesel --
12 I would have to look.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is that the June 14 incident?
15 It is not that recent, but it 16 was this year wasn't it?
17 I believe so.
18 MR.
ORR:
The diesel was fixed during the 19 outage, right, during the forced outage, right?
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
It could have also 21 been March.
22 MR.
ORR:
The diesel was fixed during the 23 forced outage, and then they are surprised, like, oh, 24 gee, we could have fixed this on-line.
It only took 25 like a couple of days, or a day-and-a-half.
So it NEAL R. GROSS
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1 must have been just before a forced outage when it was 2
last 3
,It is all heavily documented.
4 We can look and get that for 5
you.
6 MR.
ORR:
You don't have to.
7 Okay.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I think that might be 9
the March time frame, too.
10 MR.
ORR:
Yes.
But the equipment 11 operators were the ones who were fearful that they 12 need to do it because 13 O,
JI cannot speak for what they 14 experienced, but I heard rumblings to the effect.
15 MR.
ORR:
Okay.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Quick break.
17 (Brief recess.)
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
We are back on 19 after a brief break.
It is approximately 8:36 p.m.
20 And what you gave me, here are narrative logs on 21 the off-gas issue that you talked about from March of 22 this year?
23 That's correct.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All of these relate 25 to that?
(w.i&
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
These are all notifications?
(It is the notification, and it is the order, and it is all the (inaudible).
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
That is all the information on it.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All right.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
SPECIALAGENT NEFF:
Is there anything else that you would care to discuss at this point that either I have not asked or we just didn't get to here?
~No.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Have I or any other NRC representative offered you any promises of reward or threatened you in any manner in exchange for this information today?
- {'
- wNo.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Are you here freely and voluntarily?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Thank you.
At this point, we will close the interview, and it is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com
1 2
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about 8:37 p.m (Whereupon, the Interview was concluded at 8:37 p.m.)
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433 www.nealrgross.com
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number:
1-2003-051F Location:
Hope Creek Nuclear Power Station were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Paul Intravia Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co.,
Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvw.nealrgross.com v