ML061790721
| ML061790721 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 10/22/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML061790721 (24) | |
Text
, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 -- X 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INTERVIEW OF Docket No.
9 1-2003-051F 10 (CLOSED) 11 -- x 12 Wednesday, October 22, 2003' 13 14 Senior Resident's Office
.5 Salem/Hope Creek Nuclear Power 16 Station 17 Hancock's Bridge, New Jersey 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted 20 at 2:00 p.m.
21 22 BEFORE:
23 Special Agent MARK A. ANDERSON 24 Intomiaiaiw* ,,2,5.,.-
in accordance with he Freedom of inWormation Act, exemptions Faft- NEAL R. GROSS
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1 ALSO PRESENT:
2 SCOTT BARBER 3 Senior Project Engineer, Region I 4
5 CHARLES HASSLER 6 IBEW LOCAL 94 Business Representative 7
8 9
10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 2:00 p.m.
3 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Today is October 4 22, 2003. The time is now about 2:00 p.m. This is an 5 interview of who is employed by PSE&G at 6 the Salem Generating Station. The location of this 7 interview is the Senior Resident's Office at the Salem 8 Station. Present at this interview are myself, Mark 9 A. Anderson, Special Agent with the Office of 10 Investigations, U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 11 Region I, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Also present 12 is Scott Barber, Senior Project Engineer, Region I.
13 Also with us today is, if you would state your name 14 for the record.
15 MR. HASSLER: Charles Hassler.
16 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your last name is 17 spelled.
18 MR. HASSLER: H-A-S-S-L-E-R.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Mrassl, you 20 work for.
21 MR. HASSLER: IBEW Local 94, Business 22 Representative.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Who is here with 24 oday. This interview is being recorded and 25 a transcript will be produced. The subject matter of NEAL R. GROSS .
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1 this interview concerns a safety conscious work environment here at the SaleMrStation. At this point, 3 Lwould you raise your right hand?
4 WHEREUPON, 5
6 was called as a witness and, having been first duly 7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
8 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Would you state 9 your full name for the record please?
10 l IIrI I*
11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your address.
12 13 14 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your title here 15 at the plant.
16 S7-72J':Irlr:- - - - IsTrTir¶ 17 18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your home 19 telephone number.
-,I****:
i*-',.-'
- 7* * '*:*
- 20 21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your work number 22 23 - That's correct.
24 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Date of birth.
- I--
25 _....__.._, _ *I'm getting old.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You're not that 2 bad. I have a couple months on you. Your social 3 security number.
4 5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If you would just 6 tell me a little bit about your education history and 7 how you got into this business.
8 9 ... u..'.... .. I attended all total 10 -. -- *,-- --*-=:* ' Iwas inT 11 - ....... _ I heard that they were hiring up 12 here, so I came up here to get a job.
13 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: When would that 14 have been?
15 -_i -- a w".
16 17 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You have been 18 here a while.
19
- 7 Yes, I'm an old man here.
20 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Since you have 21 been here, you have been in a variety of positions.
22 Yes, I have.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Could you run me 24 though those at least a little bit?
al 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 ..........
2 3
4 5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: How long have you been in this 6
7 8
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: How long were you
.10 an**
11 12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Within the 13 structure, who would be your current supervisor now?
14 15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What would his 16 position be?
17 0 We just had a reorg. I'm not 18 sure what his title is now. He's inr( .
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Okay. With 20& regard to safety conscious work environment type 21 issues, are you aware of the programs that are here 22 that would address safety issues if there was 23 something that needed to be raised?
24 Yes. Which safety are we 25 talking about?
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1 II SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: We're talking 11 2 about nuclear safety primarily. That's what we're 3 interested in primarily.
4 I would work it up through the 5 system of going to my boss and going to his boss and 6 his boss, working my way up the chain. If I wasn't 7 satisfied, I could always go to the NRC. There's also 8 employees concerns that we have out here. We also 9 have our own grievance process that I could use if it 10 was something I felt was unsafe.
11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Within doing it 12 through the ranks of your supervision, would you do 13 that by filing an AR or something like that? How 14 would you do that?
15 77) Yes, I could write a 16 notification. Then whatever level it was deemed out 17 to be, I would call the shift supervisor and tell him 18 I had a nuclear safety concern. He would review it, 19 get back to me, and then the notification process 20 would start. But I would also tell my own supervisor 21 that I'm writing it also.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: And submitting 23 it, okay. Have you done that with specific issues in 24 the past?
25 No, I have written up NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 notifications but not for nuclear safety.
2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Would they be 3 more for industrial safety?
4 No, the notifications I have 5 done are just for plant configuration problems or 6 maybe plant components that are insufficient.
7 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: With those that 8 you have put in, have you been satisfied with the way 9 they have been addressed?
10 Yes, I have had no problems.
11 They get back to me.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: They get back to 13 you and let you know what has happened with it.
14 Yes.
15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: There are some 16 places where that doesn't seem to happen.
17 It doesn't always happen but 18 for mine it has. I'm pretty boisterous too, so I will 19 go chase it down.
20 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So if they don't 21 get back to you, you will get back to them.
22 Quickly.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Okay. But with 24 regard to nuclear safety issues, you haven't 25 personally filed any yourself.
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1 2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Are you aware of 3 other people that have filed them?
- . Yes.
4 5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you know 6 whether they were satisfied with the way the process 7 worked or whether those issues got addressed?
8 7J I would tend to believe they 9 all got addressed, not always in the most timely 10 manner but they all got addressed.
11 MR. BARBER: Could you give us an example 12 of maybe the most significant one that you can recall?
13 II'll try. I go way back. When 14 we had nuclear safety, I'm going back before the 15 restart when we took care of all of our issues.
16 MR. BARBER: You mean before the '97 - '98 17 timeframe.
r*
- Ye s, I'm the .. . ...
18 19 was there for April 7 and the restart and everything 20 else. That's when we really took a turn for the-21 better and were able to address all of our concerns.
22 MR. BARBER: So the issues you were 23 alluding to, were they that timeframe or before? Are 24 there any in recent memory in the last year or two 25 years? I-NEAL R. GROSS
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1 1 That's what I'm trying to think 2 of. I can't think of any that have been brought up 3 recently. And I read the notifications all the time.
4 I can't think of one. There might have been the BF-19 5 but that's about it.
6 MR. BARBER: The recent problem with the 7 foreign material.
8
- Yes, and all I read was the 9 notification. Nobody comes to me with it since I'm 10 not in the control room anymore with their problems 1i with that.
12 MR. BARBER: But you have access to it, 13 right? You could go onto the SAP system and go in and 14 pull the notification up and read it.
15 Ys 16 MR. BARBER: It's not that you don't.
17 It's just that maybe you don't have time.
18 O .WRight, and I didn't really read 19 the whole BF-19 incident. That's the only thing that 20 I can think of.
21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you used the 22 ECP program at all?
23 4 Employees concerns, no.
24 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You have not. Do 25 you know anyone that has used that program?
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1 ** *Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What was their 3 level of satisfaction with the way that worked?
4 *
- They really like this guy out 5 here, Evidently he does a very good, 6 thorough job. I know he's one of those types of guys 7 that if he tells you he's not going to say your name, 8 your name is not going to be said. So they have 9 confidence in him in whatever they brought up to him.
10 SPECIAL AGENTANDERSON: So they feel he's 11 independent enough and he's thorough in what he does.
12 Yes, I have heard really good 13 compliments about him.
14 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you know how 15 long he's been in that position?
16 Probably a year or two. He's 17 his own boss I guess out there now. Before, there 18 used to be two guys out there. So he's probably been 19 out there, I don't know how long to tell you the 20 truth.
21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you have any 22 knowledge or concern that people are reluctant to 23 bring up issues because of how they are going to be 24 viewed by management or by their supervision?
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1 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Can you elaborate 2 on that a little bit?
3 , Just some people have brought 4 up saying that they were worried what people would 5 think of them if they brought up issues.
6 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: To the point that 7 they would not bring up the issues.
8 They brought it to me and I 9 took it for them. It's not nuclear safety. Most of 10 the things that I deal with are industrial safety.
11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So the issues 12 that they were concerned about maybe causing people to 13 not look on them well were industrial safety issues.
14 They then got them to you and you raised the issue.
15 Yes 16 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Has that happened 17 frequently?
18 I7No, not frequently. You always 19 have one or two people around that aren't satisfied 20 with anything.
21 MR. BARBER: Can you give an example of 22 maybe one that comes to mind? Are there any that 23 really stand out in your mind as something that really 24 shouldn't have happened or that took too long to get 25 resolved?
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1 1 j Let me think. Our tagging 2 issues that we're taking care of now, we were a little 3 slow on that. That's my fault too. As far as safe-4 wise, no, none that took too long. There might be a 5 couple of component issues out there. That's just 6 because it's going through the engineers for DCP 7 packages. Other than that, no.
8 MR. BARBER: Speaking of that, let's talk 9 about that. Is that a source of frustration? You are 10 working on planning and scheduling so you are working 1i with the equipment. You are working with the 12 week 12 on-line maintenance schedule.
13 You are trying to do things per the 14 schedule, trying to lay everything out ahead of time, 15 and do all your marks as far as lock downs and staging 16 equipment and things like that and if you have design 17 changes or whatever that they are getting done. Are 18 you getting the kind of support you need from system 19 or design engineering?
20 Well, you have to realize when 21 as here he got rid of system engineers 22 which now we're finally getting back. It was both 23 something that the NRC looked at and INPO looked at.
24 I think it's even in our INPO thing where we needed 25 system engineers.
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1 Now, we're getting them back. You are 2 getting quicker response. You have a guy on a 12 hour1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> 3 shift now that's there. So the engineering department 4 is working a lot quicker now because you're having the 5 attention that it needed before it got a little wacky.
6 MR. BARBER: What did you have in lieu of 7 the system engineers?
8 I wouldn't have a clue what 9 they called it to tell you the truth because it seemed 10 like we were changing every couple of months with 11 12 MR. BARBER: Was it something that --
13 They were given litte*le 14 projects. I never understood that to begin with. We 15 had a service order project team. We were all used to 16 the system engineers that we went to all the time.
17 Now, we're back to that. There's certain guys that 18 each has our systems. It's easier for the planners 19 and everybody else to have one guy that they can go 20 to. So we have reversed that for the better.
21 MR. BARBER: Is the support where it 22 should be right now? Does it. still have some ways to 23 go?
24 I haven't heard any complaints 25 in three of four months, so it must be working really NEAL R. GROSS -
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1 well because the planners are usually the ones that 2 deal with them a lot.
3 MR. BARBER: Okay.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: With regard to 5 raising issues and getting them addressed, have people 6 expressed any concern or fear to you about being fired 7 for raising issues or being disciplined for raising 8 issues?
9 j No, not disciplined or fired.
10 I think people are more worried about how people look 11 at them. They are always looking for somebody like 12 myself that can raise issues and we're not afraid to.
13 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Would those 14 people be looking for that anywhere, or do you think 15 it's because of the way things are running here?
16 I think it's their personality 17 that no matter where they work they would be looking 18 for it.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So it's not 20 specific to necessarily who's in charge. They just 21 don't have personalities that would cause them to be 22 up-front.
23 I always tell them they have 24 inferiority complex. They are afraid to raise issues 25 just because that's their personality.
A t" -_1 NEAL R. GROSS h ! /
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1 MR. BARBER: Has anybody ever expressed to 2 you very a specific work related reason why they I an issue? Was t*here ever a didn' wa Int to raise W I--
4 situation where somebody says I think this is a real 5 problem but I've mentioned it to my boss and if I 6 bring it up to ECP or to the NRC or through similar 7 channels and they know it will come from me and I'm 8 afraid something will happen to me like I will get 9 demoted or transferred or terminated? Could you 10 handle this for me? Have you ever had anything like 11 that?
12 __TyThey are not that bad because 13 Thom-r fppl theme guys aren't = raid to use ECP elther
{" 14 that they have two avenues to express things. One is
--- _ ,Theotherone stog 16 throughh and the grievance process. So I don't 17 remember any.
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Is it your 19 impression that most everybody is aware that there are 20 these different avenues?
21 - God, yes.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: That's been put 23 out.
24 We do it at union meetings. We 25 do it at all hands meetings. We do it everywhere.
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1 And s easy to get in touch with.
2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So you have to be 3 pretty oblivious to not know that there's --
4 Down there, you would have to 5 more than oblivious.
6 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Okay, dead.
7 8 (Laughter.)
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: There may be some 10 dead people that even know that.
11 Yes, well, when they leave here 12 and they die, they still know.
13 SPECIAL AGENTANDERSON: They would still 14 know it.
15 --
Y es~
I 16 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: They have it put 17 on their tombstone.
18 Yes.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So you feel.
20 that's pretty out there and known about.
21 22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What about 23 raising issues to the NRC? Is there any fear of doing 24 that?
25 mmmotplI-o-1d~tth-k-o.--Yo-uguys-j NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 are here so somebody had to bring it up.
2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Yes, I guess what 3 I'm wondering though is when they do the inspections 4 or when they are on-site and they are going around and 5 talking to people out in the plant about safety 6 conscious work environment questions, most of the 7 feedback is no there is no problem or everything is 8 fine. Then you go along and you get a specific 9 indication that there's a problem which then generates 10 everybody running down here. I guess the thing you 11 have to ask is are we getting accurate information 12 when we are out there taking it from the plant or are 13 people stroking us?
14 J These guys are not afraid to 15 speak their mind. You will probably find that out 16 through however many people you interview. This is 17 very boistrous. There are people, like I said, when 18 you get them in here quietly they might express some 19 things but they are not afraid.
20 We have all done the INPO from restart 21 when I got used to having so many in my back pocket; 22 INPO one side, NRC on the other. So you guys are 23 always there. We got used to that. You guys are our 24 friends really. You are part of the shifts.
25 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right.
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1 MR. BARBER: So from the standpoint, 2 obviously we are down here for a reason. If I said to 3 you there's a great concern that nuclear safety issues 4 are not adequately addressed or taken seriously enough 5 by management and something is done with it right 6 away, would you agree with that or disagree with that?
7 j Well, there are issues on 8 conservative decision-making but that's a policy that 9 is being talked about. As far as nuclear safety, we 10 bring the issues up and we talk about them.
ii MR. BARBER: What was that you said?
12 Conservative decision-making.
13 How far conservative is conservative? How far do you 14 have to go with it? We all know we could shut the 15 units down in a heartbeat for anything. But now that 16 we're having a new management team and we're going to 17 go through the normal conservative decision-making, is how far is conservative?
19 MR. BARBER: Right.
20 You always have that in ops.
21 MR. BARBER: What's your personal opinion 22 about that? Do you feel that if there was a safety 23 issue that was a nuclear safety issue and it needed to 24 be addressed would it be addressed?
25 Yes.
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1 MR. BARBER: There would be somebody that 2 would bring it up and somebody would bring it forth.
3 Yes, I have no qualms about 4 that at all.
5 MR. BARBER: Let's go back to that 6 conservative decision-making. What kind of situations 7 have you personally been involved with where there's 8 been what you have perceived to be production pressure 9 and there was some underlying safety issue that had to 10 be resolved? Considering that, did you ever feel like 11 there was a set of circumstances where the production 12 pressure was maybe too much and maybe resolving the 13 safety issue was being pushed aside or getting short 14 tripped so that it was not being addressed properly?
15 Lately, no. A long time ago, 16 I lived through the surf water fiascos. Every time a 17 tide would come up, you would reduce power. Every 18 time it went out, you would raise it back up. That's 19 when we started the conservative decision-making down 20 here. How far do you push an operator before he just 21 breaks? Then that day on April 7, they had both feed 22 pumps manual, the BF-19s manual and were still trying 23 to run it.
24 MR. BARBER: You are referring to April 7, 25 1994, the major grassing evenL. i NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 Yes, that's me on the movie if 2 you have ever seen the movie. I don't know if you 3 know . We have had a strong operator 4 background where he pushes for conservative decision-5 making and nuclear safety. We have a guy on the 6 reactor. The other guys have the rest of the plant.
7 You have that in there now.
8 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Did you have 9 follow-ups on that at all?
10 MR. BARBER: No.
11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Any other issues 12 that you recall with regard to issues not being 13 addressed, issues not flowing through right channels 14 to be taken care of?
C11111,1 No, because I will chase them 15 16 down.
17 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON:, You feel at least 18 through your experience issues that you have pushed up 19 through supervisory channels in most cases they have 20 gotten back to you and been involved in the process to 21 get it addressed and see that you get an answer.
22 "- - .. ... Yes .
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So management 24 seems to be aware of how these need to be handled and 25 they are a part of it, participating in it.
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1 Yes, some of it's been slow, 2 but it seems to have kicked into a new gear just in 3 the last few weeks.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you attribute 5 that to this coming back?
6 *Yes, it's a clear, concise, 7 different approach to management. You can see the 8 difference in management already.
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So these things 10 shouldn't languish.
11 "These won't languish at all.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: They will get 13 addressed.
14 Yes, it's all new. When I have
- 15. talked to he seems to be the same as They 16 are going to make our plant get back to being the way 17 it was.
.18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you have 19 anything else?
20 MR. BARBER: No, nothing.
21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you have 22 anything else that you want to bring forward at this 23 time because we're just a repository for any 24 information that you want to bring forth?
25 61 You are a what? /4 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: A repository.
3 (Laughter.)
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Yes, for all your 5 waste. You have nothing else.
6 No.
7 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: I appreciate you 8 taking the time. I just need to put a closing 9 statement on here have I or any other NRC 10 representative threatened you in any manner or offered 11 you any rewards in return for this information?
12 No.
13 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you provided 14 this information freely and voluntarily?
15 10 0 Yes.
16 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Is there anything 17 else you want to add to the record at this time?
18 No, not at this time.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: The time is now 20 2:20 p.m. This interview is concluded.
21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 22 concluded at 2:20 p.m.)
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Lý'.
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-051F Location: Hancock's Bridge, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurar-e record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Anne Marie Sm'ith Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
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