ML052440437
| ML052440437 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 05/05/2003 |
| From: | Monroe K NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| -RFPFR, 1-2003-010, FOIA/PA-2004-0191 | |
| Download: ML052440437 (95) | |
Text
EXHIBIT 16
.T1 Information in this record was deleted Inaccordance with e Freedomn of Information Act, exemptions-FDla k -C185 Case No. 1-2003-010 Exhibit 16
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ -x 7 IN THE MATTER OF: :
8 INTERVIEW OF Docket No.
9 IC, 1-2003-010 10 (CLOSED) 11 ______-____ x 12 Monday, May 5, 2003 13 Salem Hope Creek Gener3ating 14 Station 15 Artificial Island, NJ 16 17 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted 20 at 1:57 p.m.
21 22 BEFORE:
23 Special Agent Kristin Monroe 24 25 PG EXHIBITT JL E(S) 22 0 O-ON1 °NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
. *s1v ^%or% Afce kI %Ai
9:
1 On Behalf of the Witness, t;/ 2d 2 JEFFRIE KEENAN, ESQ. U ~Aio 3 Assistant General Solicitor v 4 PSE&G Corporation Nuclear-N21 5 P.O. Box 236 6 Hancocks Bridge, NJ 08038 7 1-800-232-0244 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 41'13 DrufU let sKin MIC Mw
3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 1:57 a.m.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Today is Monday, 4 May 5, 2003 and the time is now approximately 1:57 5 p.m.
6 The interview this afternoon is wit -
7 who is employed by PSE&G Corporation at the 8 Salem Hope Creek Generating Station on Artificial 9 Island in New Jersey.
10 Also present for the interview is Jeff 11 Keenan who is the Assistant General Solicitor for 12 PSE&G.
13 My name is Kristin Monroe. I'm a Special 14 Agent with the NRC, Office of Investigations in King 15 of Prussia, Pennsylvania.
16 The interview today is taking place at 17 Artificial Island and we're in a conference room in 1i the TB2 Building.
19 The subject the interview concerns an 20 allegation that who's a senior engineer 21 at the Salem Hope Creek was discriminated against for 22 raising a safety concern. Specifically elieves 23 that because 3)raised a concern on 24 regarding procedural noncompliance with the Transient 25 Assessment Response Plan, which we'll call TARP for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1iw SiELfF IMI ANfn ASF NW.
4 1 ease, and with i non-qualifications to be on that 2 tea elieves that was relieved of duty and had 3 mpmployment suspended and u lant access removed 4 from August 9 to August 19, 2002.
5 also believes that received 6 threats of a poor performance appraisal and/or 7 termination of employment on August 19, 8 These are potential violations of 10 CFR 9 50.5 which is entitled Deliberate Misconduct and 10 10 CFR 50.7 which is entitled Employee Protection.
11 And the concerns, as I've read them to 12 you, are what I've gleaned from my interview with 13 14 Prior to going on the record, I explained 15 the interview would be conducted under oath.
16 Do you have any objection to being 17 interviewed under oath?
18 I don't have any objection.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Could you please 20 raise your right hand?
21 Do you solemnly swear that the information 22 you're about the provide is true and complete to the 23 best of your knowledge and beliefs, so help you God?
24 I do.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Would you please NEAL R.GROSS Q COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS f ILAN) AvM_ N.W.
1VV RHfnE
5 1 state your full name and spell your last?
2 3
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And *W what's 5 your date and plate of birth?
6
_ LI
.7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And your Social 9 Security Number?
10 11 (Off the record.)
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We just stopped the 13 tape to make we were getting an accurate recording, 14 which we are.
15 ~what's your current title?
16 17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And who do you 18 report to?. T II 19 (Phonetic). I I
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And the series of 21 events we're talking about took place last summer.
22 Who would have you reported to then?
23 24 SPECIAL AGENT.MONROE: What's your current 25 mailing address and telephone number?
NEAL R.GROSS at ark COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
6 2
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And zip code?
4 5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And home phone 6 number?
7 8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And your 9 educational background?
10 11 12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is that in Delaware 13 or Delaware County?
14 Delaware County, 15 Pennsylvania.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you have any 17 military service?
18 - No.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: All right, as an 20 engineering supervisor, just give me a brief 21 description of what your daily responsibilities would 22 be or what do you do?
23 I have the responsibility 24 for four groups, 8913, thermal performance, 25 maintenance rule and single failure vulnerability
- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1ig Rwnn;f IMI Ain AL IJF NW
7 1 project, oversee task assignments, qualifications, 2 general performance, resolve issues, general oversight 3 of the product, to assure good quality products, 4 technical oversight.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And what 6 organization does your group fall into?
7 i Engineering programs.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And then i 9 obviously works for you. Which one of those 10 groups?
11 Maintenance rule.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Maintenance rule.
13 the program owner for 14 maintenance rule.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What does that 16 mean, program owner?
17 It's -- ghas the principal 18 responsibility for making sure the process is working 19 right, does the audits.of it, sets up the procedures, 20 makes sure the process is working correctly and meets 21 the regulatory requirements.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: All right, how long 23 have you been employed by PSE&G?
24 , I started.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And what was your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS vSwa Pwrim: i-Ri atn Av;z riw
8 1 position at the time you started?
2 Senior engineer.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was your 4 previous employment?
M..tII& 9l-ztt 5 Project engineer aat Kislazeir 6 Corporation (Phonetic).
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you hold any 8 licenses or certifications?
9 No.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And how long has 11 w reported to you?
12 About April 2001.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Now the issue we're 14 discussing i selection to be on the TARP team 15 which I guess the decision was made in June-July 2002.
16 Prior to that, can you describe the 17 association, how it was your working relationship 18 between the two of you?
19 It was a good, professional 20 relationship. We've never been friends, but we've 21 effectively worked on issues. I don't have a style of 22 being a micromanager, so if was running areas of 23 the project properly or of the program, I didn't have 24 my fingers in day to day activities, but I monitored 25 the general-activities, gave suggestions. Kept aware NEAL R. GROSS 1J Tf COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 4q~)bUAFnc Gl £Sm as AII sMu,
9 1 of issues or problems that needed to be resolved.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Would you have 3 described it as a good, working relationship? Any 4 problems?
5 There were no day to day 6 issues. sometimes stubborn. I don't want to 7 say difficult, but qt as occasionally stubborn with 8 *iissues, but we had a good relationship.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: The fact tha 10 gone to ECP and come to the NRC, has that impacted 11 your association at all?.
12 has become 13 noncommunicative with me. respond to my 14 direct questions. Rarely initiates discussions with 15 me.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: IS $-- have you 17 had any discussions about why that's changed or why 18 w communicating this way?
19 We haven't had any explicit 20 discussions about it. I assume it's because
.21 unhappy with the situations we're discussing.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right. .Has# made 23 any requests to leave your organization or move to --
24 To mef has not explicitly 25 requested. erformance partnership,
- NEAL R. GROSS X COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
10 1 indicate X had a future interest in being an STA, 2 but that's typical of a lot of people predicting the 3 next position.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Sure, and STA is 5 what?
6 - Station Technical Advisor in 7 an Operations Department assignment.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Just some general 9 background for me to get an understanding.
10 What is TARP, the, team, what's it's 11 purpose? Just give me a run down, in general.
12 _ It's a multi-discipline team 13 that's called to help-the station operations from 14 being distracted from emerging conditions in the 15 plant, things like unplanned LCOs, spills in the plant 16 any unusual activity that would cause or require the 17 operators, the supervisor of the shift to manage it to 18 avoid distraction to them, so they call in the TARP 19 team. -.
20 Typically, *a seniorAmember, along with 21 representatives from QA, engineering, rad pro, EP, 22 whatever group is appropriate, whichever discipline is 23 appropriate for the type of conditions that's 24 occurring.
25 Now if it's an environmental spill of some NEAL R. GROSS lip COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIB l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.,.N.W. I
11 1 sort, it might just be chemistry, licensing and 2 maintenance.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, how does one 4 get to be a member of the TARP team?
5 - In engineering, it's an 6 assignment by management.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Specifically, how 8 did* -- well, let me back up.
9 Do you have to have any special 10 qualifications or training to be a member of the TARP 11 team?
12 There's no listed 13 qualifications. For the general skills, you want 14 leadership ability. problem solving ability, general is knowledge of the plants..
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Would you describe 17 it as a development assignment or is it something that 18 someone could consider to be punitive? How would you 20 It's not a punitive 21 assignment, but it's not a pleasant assignment, 22 because no one wants an assignment that might result 23 in you being called out at 11 o'clock at night.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right, right.
25 It's part of the.duty at a NEAL R. GROSS a r COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBE i323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
12 1 nuclear plant. You know you're going to work outages.
2 You know you're going to be called out for special 3 issues. Working at a nuclear plant in my view is 4 it's not a 40 hour4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> a week job.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right, that's been 6 my observations as well just based on interviewing 7 people.
8 Have you ever been a member of the TARP?
9 YesYes.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Are you currently 11 a member?
12 No. I was a member from 13 probably 1999 until early 2001.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was your role?
15 Were you a lead or supervisor?
16 I was the engineering lead.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You were not then 18 on the TARP at the same time as 19 That's correct.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And how much of an 21 impact did it have on your personal life? You 22 live iHow far away is that?
23 : It's an hour. I mean during 24 the period I was on it, it was a very busy period 25 because m ah"y cut ma o's of its long shutdown kbuy Lgere (-IvA ^f-%A\10 NEAL R. kOSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1-1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. IkgeY_
13 1 and we were probably having 10 TARPs a month, so I 2 would say once or twice a week I would be impacted.
3 More than 50 percent of those happened during the day 4 since that's when most maintenance activities go on, 5 surveillances go on, so the majority of TARP issues 6 happen during daylight hours, during the week.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is an assignment on 8 TARP, does it have a beginning date and an end date?
9 Is there a specific period? Do you know you're going 10 to be there a year?
11 When I was on-it, it didn't 12 have a finite period, but I was rotated out because 13 they recognized I was on two years and it was time to 14 have some equity and have another person on it.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who rotated in 16 behind you?
17 _ I can't recall.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: If an individual is 19 selected to.be on TARP, does that individual have the 20 -- can they turn down the request? Turn down the 21 assignment?
22 We don't have a process 23 that's that formal.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What is the 25 process, why don't you describe it to me?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 12T RWAAF IRI AFJn AVs NW
14 1 (Well, my manager said please 2 take the job. I said I know it's part of my job.
3 I'll take it.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Could you have said 5 no?
6 I don't know.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
8 It didn't occur tome.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It didn't occur to 10 you? Okay. It wouldn't-have occurred to me either.
11 Okay. What was the process? How did 12 \become identified as a potential TARP member?
13 Do you know?
14 I don't have first hand 15 knowledge of this, but I was told by that 16 it was John O'Connor and Steve Mannon who was 17 representing in a meeting with several 18 other managers. And they looked through the 19 supervisors who had been on it or were about to be on 20 it and they said we don't have enough supervisors to 21 cover the full complement they want. Let's pick some 22 senior engineers who have the skills we need for TARP.
23 And that was h was chosen, along with another 24 senior engineer..
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who was the other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRI Iava Wflan; OnI Amln Acr_ MW -
15 1 senior engineer? IV 2 George Seigea- (Phonetic).
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you had no 4 direct input into being selected for TARP, is 5 that correct?
6 Correct.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: When you became a 8 member of TARP back in 1999, were you given any kind 9 of special training or anything?
10 No.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you feel 12 comfortable assuming your responsibilities without any 13 training?
14 Yes. I'm trying to think 15 back. It might have been at the start of TARP.
16 I don't recall.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let's get to the 18 heart of the-issue here.
19 When did you first become aware tha 20 was selected for TARP, walk me through that?
21 m It was the end of June or 22 early July, I'm not -- in that time frame we had --
23 I'm just not sure of the exact dates, but that was the 24 rough time frame.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay and how did NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RMODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
16 1 you find out?
2 I believe it was fromQ 3 when he saidinvitation to a meeting to 4 discuss TARP.
S SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Elaborate on what 6 your discussion was with when you found out from 7 was TARP.
8 And just for the record we're going to 9 look at what, is this a Franklin Planner?
10 It's a Franklin Planner.
11 It's organized mostly by date.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, great. And 13 you made these notes, what contemporaneously when you 14 had your meeting with 15 Immediately or within 24 16 hours.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. And why 18 don't you describe what we're looking at for the 19 record?
20 . It's one sheet that has a 21 date on it that I don't trust, in this case, but it 22 says 6/26/02.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you want to read 24 into the record what your notes are and that might be 25 the best way?
NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
17 1 Sure. Discussed TARP and 2 1R13 assignments with Apologized for poor TARP 3 notification. sai would not accept either 4 assignment voluntarily. Cut short my discussion of 5 the opportunity that TARP offered. believed the 6 assignments were unfair. a Ynsist wouldn't 7 participate until a process, procedure and fairness 8 was implemented. 3was generally belligerent. Was 9 not open to discussion. Could not agpreciate the need 10 to support department jobs. And IHave questions on 11 what W esponsibility in TARP would be and what 12 would be compensated for for overtime.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I think what we 14 have and I'll just show you. I got this from Tom 15 Lake. It looks like around July 8th;I let you know 16 that das on TARP and t wasn't particularly happy 17 with the assignment, so that would jive with your 18 recollection that June 26th probably isn't the date?
19 I don't think it's that 20 late. I'm sure it was roughly in that time frame.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You think it' s more 22 closer to June 26th?
23 Yes, maybe July 1st, that 24 time frame.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
. NEALR. GROSS bS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 We had a discussion prior to 2 that.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
4 r That I'm certain of.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. What was 6 logic behind whytiridn't want to be on the 7 TARP or why + as refusing the assignment? What did 8 tj tell you during that first meeting?
9 _Just what I quoted from my 10 notes. was generally upset and just said didn't 11 think it was fair and just thought there needed to be 12 a process and wasn't going to accept the assignment 13 until a procedure was written and~ thought it was a 14 fair process that he was assigned.
15 In my judgment, it was a recognition that 16 didn't see management had the right to assign 17 to a position.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What kind of a 19 procedure didl* want written? Do you know what 20 was talking about there?
21 : I think*W-- I believe 22 was suggesting there should be a procedure for how .we 23 assign people to TARP and rotate them in or out.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
25 Which is something--
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS p On) 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. I
19 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Do you know 2 ho ) as informed that -- I think you said* was 3 informed in an e-mail?
4 as invited to a meeting 5 where they were going to discuss as a group.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
7 Past and current TARP 8 members to turn over what the TARP duties are and what 9 the assignments were.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right. Do you know 11 what the normal process is for notifying an employee 12 that they are on TARP?
13 It's typically the manager 14 telling -- I can only judge --
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: From your 16 experience.
17 the only person I ever 18 had on the TARP team up to that. And I can tell you 19 show I assigned the other people to it.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I'll get to that 21 later, yes.
22 In my case, the manager said 23 would you be on TARP?
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. There was, 25 I guess, a communication problem because Steve Mannon NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
20 1 was at the meeting and didn't inform that 2 had been selected for TARP and I gues irst 3 notification that was on it. was this e-mail. There 4 had been a communication breakdown, but I think you 5 used the word s belligerent?
6 If Yes.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What do you mean by 8 that? 10attitude or emeanor or?
9 I put them together, yes.
10 It was a - as being declarative ini _efusal to 11 take the assignment until these conditions were met.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. After you 13 had this discussion with hat did you do with --
14 looks like right up frontx refusal to take the 15 assignment?
16 I left a message for manager 17 and went and talked to John Carlin.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Your manager would 19 b e 20 That's correct.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who is the other 22 individual?
23 John Carlin. The Vice 24 President.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. All right, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS Gus r)ron; I.I &Ml aIrJn mw
21 1 discuss with me -- I know why you would call_
2 _ because manager.
3 I couldn't talk to U 4 directly. in an agitated state. We have 5 pretty much open door policies, employees are more 6 than welcome to call vice president or managers, so it 7 was my intention to get the story with the vice 8 president as soon as I could.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you meet with 10 John?
11 Yes.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you document 13 your meeting with John Carlin at all?
14 No.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Any reason you 16 would have not documented that meeting with John 17 Carlin?
18 I just didn't. I didn't 19 document meetings with anything other than since 20 it was just a management discussion. It was -- I 21 stated what occurred to him and he said I agree, we 22 need to insist that take the position.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, "need to 24 insist", okay.
25 Was s belligerent behavior with you NEAL R.GROSS ItP46 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
22 1 at that meeting when G was talking about the TARP 2 assignment, was that out of character for ep Had 3 you observed that kind of behavior before?
4 akes firm positions and 5 defends them.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
7 This is perhaps a little 8 louder than normal, but it's not -- it's typical for 9 O o firmly take a position and defend.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right, you can 11 firmly take a position, but then you can cross a line 12 a little bit where it's belligerent and I was 13 wondering what in your mind did do that made 14 behavior belligerent as you characterized it?
15 Well, it was this 16 conversation -- this is a fuzzy time because I wasn't 17 keeping perfect notes in that time frame.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I understand.
19 _ But j se words like "I'm 20 going to fight this to the end." And just a flat 21 refusal to take direction from the supervisors, I 22 characterize as belligerent without -- wouldn't 23 discuss reasons,, justifications.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So would not 25 discuss any reasons with you?
NEAL R.GROSS S7Orr COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
23 1 It was pretty much a one-2 sided discussion, little opportunity to have 3 interchange which/as characteristic throughout our 4 conversations. I was pretty much talked to most of 5 the time..
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, when did you 7 first become aware thatfthad some concerns wit
- 8 qualification to be a TARP member?
9 t : I believe it was the 7/8 10 meeting.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: That would be July 12 8th?
13 l Right.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let me just take a 15 minute here
'A 16 Let me read my notes to 17 confirm that.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, great.
19 (Pause.)
20 This is what I got, I think, from a review 21 and Jeff will correct me if I'm wrong because I didn't 22 put a note on here where I got this. It looks like on 23 July 2nd, **was assigned to TARP and reads the 24 appropriate procedure and it says ' meets with 25 and advises tha U has no NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS it Jan 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. l
24 1 qualifications." That was July 2nd.
2 And do you remember --
3 MR. KEENAN: I have an e-mail that tz 4 would have received on July 1st regarding the TARP 5 assignment. This is from I believe_ .
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I saw that.
7 MR. KEENAN: I have a meeting --
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let me just go off 9 here.
10 (Off the record.)
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We went off the 12 13 14 record briefly.
first became We're trying to lock in whe aware that had qualifications issue and just as a point of reference, raisedI .
15 Jeff Keenan pointed out that there was a July e-mail 16 from m to requesting a meeting and I'll just 17 read it in.
18 It says please be advised that it 19 appears that I have been put on TARP Team D without my 20 knowledge or consent. The engineering core value of 21 openness, trust and respect has been violated by this 22 back door tactic. I request an immediate meeting with 23 you to resolve this issue in a fair, safe and 24 equitable manner. I feel this was an extremely 25 inappropriate action on management's part which has NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
25 1 violated our core values.
2 Furthermore, I have read the TARP 3 procedure requirements and believe I have the 4 appropriate rank nor the appropriate background and 5 training to do this assignment. ." I 6 think Eveant "I do not have the appropriate rank",
7 but that's now it's written.
8 Okay, you pulled out your notes from the 9 July 8th meeting and let's move on into that.
1.0 What goes on at that meeting?
1.1 Okay. say has an 1.2 issue with qua hinks the p cedure requires 3.3 technical skills, was not wijing-to -- I aske _
14 what sections required that. f asn't willing to 1.5 identify those sections for me. At that point I 16 explained that it was a leadership position.
17 clearly demonstrates the leadership skills.
18 I tried to explain that was chosen 19 for that as a possible development opportunity since 20 ^had missed supervisor positions or appointment to 21 supervisor positions and this sort of exposure and 22 training could giv hat opportunit 5 thought 23 I was just complimenting o.get to accept it.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Were you?
25 No.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
26 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You sincerely 2 believe that?
3 Well, that was the -- I 4 believed that would assist f in being a supervisor 5 and that's what John O'Connor told me.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Go ahead.
.7 Again, I apologized for the 8 method of telli I told A it was the 9 responsibility of a senior engineer to take the duty.
10 V
-- mmediately diverted that argument and said "others 11 aren't taking the assignment" implying A shouldn't 12 have to.
13 I suspect brought up the core values 14 management wasn't bringing since I pointed out t 15 that the core values of learning continuously, 16 teamwork and change were also core values and that 17 taking the position would exemplify those.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Where did 19 this July 8th meeting take place, do you remember?
20 I know it was set up for 21 Conference Room 232, but I believe it occurred in our 22 cubicle areas.
23 - SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It's a private 24 area? Would anyone have overheard the conversation?
25 If it was later in the day, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. I /
27 1 it would have been semi-private.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Can you estimate 3 when it was during the day, any way to --
4 No.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, fine.
6 _ It's nine months ago memory.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I hear you. It's 8 a good thing you have those notes.
9 What was demeanor during this 10 meeting? How was Was sending and not 11 receiving or was talking and not listening? How 12 would you-describe that?
_01 M.NMENNA.
13 I didn't note any demeanor.
14 I have no special recollection of it, so it was 15 probably a priee conversation.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let me see if we're 17 reading from the same page.
18 I am looking at, looks like the 9th, 19 Tuesday, the 9th up here?
.20 Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: But it also says 22 July 8th.
23 Yes, that's when -- go back 24 to my July 8th page. If you have this one, it says 25 under -- oh, that's probably, it might be when it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
J
28 1 occurred at 11 o'clock since it says -- do you have 2 Monday, the 8th?
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I have it here, 4
s 6 notes are.
Room 232, July 9th --
See 7/9. That's where my 7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, again, *has 8 issues with _ qualifications and thinks the 9 procedure, something -- requires technical skills.
10 But tasn't willing to identify sections.
11 Did you have the procedure there and ask 12
- to go back and look and tell me specifically what 13 your issue was? What issue was?
144 I asked if would 15 identify the sections say wasn't willing to 16 do it.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Was not willing to 18 do it. Okay.
19 And what qualifications did* 'have a 20 problem with?
21 This is pretty much where 22 would be talking at me and not having an 23 interchange.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
25 I just don't know which NEAL R. GROSS flCIED 'hcxf COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
29 1 sections had. In later conversations did say 2 things like "if I do take the assignment, I'm not 3 going to respond unless I am technically competent in 4 the area of this TARP issue."
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
6 I still -- I know it is a 7 leadership position, but it doesn't require explicit 8 technical knowledge.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: There was one 10 thing. If you go to the next page. Again, I offered 11 to explain and train on all aspects of the job.
12 Right.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I asked if A 14 recognized that there were consequences of not t'aking 15 the assignment.
16 What consequences were you referring to 17 here?
18 : Well, my next sentence, 19 anywhere from a letter on file to impact on salary 20 adjustment.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
22 And my perspective, this is 23 after I had pointed out that I see no qualification 24 issues and wasn't -- I explained that I though 25 had the qualifications and Xwasn't willing to help NEAL R. GROSS AtC hoJy COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 me understand what 3didn't l7 30 2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And what's the 3 basis for the consequences? How did you know that 4 those could be, the range of action? Had you 5 consulted with anyone in HR?
6 I started with 7 where we pulled out a manual we call the Mark 8 Procedure or Mark Manual which has what management 9 response could or should be in response to certain 10 situations and we reached the conclusion that there 11 appeared to be insubordination and that it could be up 12 to and including termination.
13 At that point we said well, we don't make 14 these decisions independently, so I got together with 15 Debbie Stromiller (Phonetic) our client consultant in 16 Human Resources and she recommended that we just use 17 the performance partnership and salary readjustment 18 discussions with Matt as we discussed this.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, you got
.20 together with Debbie Stromiller. That was before or 21 after this July 8th meeting?
22 Before.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you were 24 prepared, you felt you had some sort of potential 25 insubordination issue based on your first exchange NEAL R. GROSS f) l COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
321 1 wit 2 Clearly, yes.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you went back to 4 find out what your responsibilities were as a 5 supervisor on how to deal with it, including talking 6 to nd to Deb Stromiller.
7 ndicated, I think, that others were 8 not taking the assignment. Do you know, did name 9 who else was not taking the assignment?
10 mentioned principal 11 engineers. s ust looking around and saying hey, 12 it was an equity concern. believed others were not 13 --
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Well, a principal 15 engineer, i a senior engineer which meansjX 16 higher up in the organization?
17 Well, principal is a level 18 above.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Oh, principal is?
20 Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so it goes 22 senior engineer, principal engineer.
23 Right.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: That' s interesting.
25 I had'it in reverse. So it would be senior, then NEAL R. GROSS § j 4 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
32 1 principal. What comes above a principal?
2 Supervisor.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Di ame, 4 if I asked you this, bear with me. Di give you 5 any names on who was turning down the assignment or 6 didn't have to take the assignment?
7 I don't recall any.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Anything more you'd 9 like to add to that July 8th meeting to clarify? How 10 did you leave it once the meeting was over. What was 11 the bottom line?
12 looks like it just ended 13 with eiterati tatement that refused i4 the assignment because it was a procedure violation 15 an 4 o5oncluded the meeting.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
17 I know in this meeting, I 18 did offer the professional differing opinion process.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What's that?
20 Where --
21 MR. KEENAN: This is where* was 22 reading from.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Over here?
24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Okay, now NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS JC l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
33 1 saying there's a procedure violation. So on July 2 8th, he raised that this was a procedure violation.
3 Your notes also indicated the assignment 4 was just for one year?
5 Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Was that already 7 pre-established it was going to be one year?
8 lY es.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you knew there 10 was a beginning and end to it, you weren't going to be 11 on it forever, kind of like what happened to you?
12 Yes.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: After the July 8th 14 meeting, did you have any discussions with anybody or 15 what did you do next? Wasfj still flat out refusing 16 the assignment?
17 Let me just re-orient where 18 I am.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
20 I'm certain I talked tc 21 I can't recall the conversation. It's my 22 style to talk to the manager every time we have one of 23 these issues, so I know I talked to w 24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Do you 25 recall that 3 offered any suggestions or direction on NEAL R. GROSS 7t COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l 414 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
.*,. -. ... ... _ _ _ -^ _... "-
34 1 how to proceed next on this?
2 My notes indicate that on July 11th you 3 spoke to ECP and Neal Berg (Phonetic) about the 4 potential problem. Do you recall speaking to ECP?
5 Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was the 7 purpose of going to ECP and who would you talk to 8 I'm glad you gave.me that 9 nudge. ought there was a procedure 10 violation and had apparent safety issues. It looked 11 like it could be in the ECP realm and Tom Grtrr -'_
12 (Phonetic) said come talk to us. So I stopped over 13 and talked to Tom, talked through the situation.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. What input 15 or what exactly did you discuss? Did you just restate 16 what they -- issues you received from i 17 Yes. Discussed each meeting 18 with Asked how should I be proceeding. We 19 talked about -- did reemphasize that I should be 20 trying to use the professional differing of opinion.
21 I know I had done it independently. That was one of 22 Tom's recommendations as I recall.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
24 Also, ECP was always an 25 option, so at one point I was regularly -- just about NEAL R.GROSS 7t /lY COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERJ 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
35 1 every meeting I recommended toq talk to Tom Lake, 2 talk to Neil Berg.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who was Neal Berg?
4 He's the manager of QA. The 5 professional differing opinion process normally the 6 first step is talk to your supervisor to initiate the 7 resolution of a problem and since _ problem was 8 with me, his supervisor, I jumped to QA and said would 9 you receive this issue since it's inappropriate for me 10 since I'm the supervisor. So I set up with Neil that 11 he would be receptive to acceptin _ins issue.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, do you know 13 if ever wrote a DPL?
14 I don't believeAo'did.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Now July 12th, this 16 is again, statement to me is that was at 17 some sort of a meeting, a PSA meeting. And what's a 18 PSA meeting?
19 _..:Probabilistic safety 20 assessment.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: An indicated 22 that -I'll just read you what: old me. This 23 is an e-mail and it's dated July 12, 2002. Meeting.
24 status, required attendees, I'm not quite sure, but 25 the written text says "the PSA group is to provide a NEAL R. GROSS TQ -~r/
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
36 1 status update for Hope Creek and Salem PSA models.
2 Also, as a group we also discussed any needed future 3 feedback looped to the M rule program to ensure aid to 4 performance criteria and SSC risk ranking are 5 appropriate (Inaudible)?" Now the handwritten 6 bullets I'll read too.
7 ' 'came to the meeting and had me stay 8 after it." I can't read that. "Me and only.
9 mstated performance partnership would be impacted.
10 I stated I would not violate the procedure. Tol 11 of safety concerns and I want a QA in my meeting with 12 him."
13 What meeting is he referring to now, do 14 you know?
15 Yes. At the end of this 16 meeting, I was --
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Oh, you were there.
18 _ Yes. It was a subject we 19 were both interested in. I asked 4 to stay back.
20 I told _ that I saw no issues with the procedure 21 based on his quals and the duty and the procedure.
22 restated his position. We've asked to take the 23 TARP position. l refused to take the position 24 based on quals.
25 I believed that there was no -- I reread NEAL R. GROSS 7CiI o COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
37 1 the procedure, truly thought there was no problem or 2 violation. At that point, t got very angry.
3 Accused me of retaliation. Was essentially screaming 4 at me and got up and left the meeting.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who else was -- was 6 this in front of the -- did this exchange take place 7 with other individuals present or was it after the 8 meeting?
9 _ It was only i and me in 10 the room.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you know if 12 anyone would have overheard?
13 Probably not.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
15 : It was very late in the 16 date. It was the end of the day meeting.
.17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Where did the 18 meeting take place?
19 A conference room right up 20 the hall here.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: At TB2?
22 characterized that you started to verbally threaten 23
- What's your reaction to that?
24 There was nothing close to 25 a threat.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
38 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is it possible that 2 a could perceive what you told w to be the 3 consequences as a threat?
4 Yes. We certainly disagree 5 on whether that was a threat or not.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
7 I see it as the consequences 8 of taking a reasonable assignment after we've 9 addressed all those issues.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
11 I mean there was even a 12 point where attempting to -- it was earlier on 13 or was attempting to negotiate, I'll take the 14 outage assignment if you don't give me the TARP 15 assignment.
16 And I also believe was kind of at some 17 point was negotiating, what's the worse consequences 18 that occur if I take this position? So what's the 19 cost to me not taking TARP versus taking --
20 SPECIAL AGENT-MONROE: So you were trying 21 to judge --
22 So I'm getting those inputs 23 that make me think this is more of a performance issue 24 than a legitimate --
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Concern.
NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
39 1 Fair, safety issue that I 2 believed I was adequately addressing or attempting to 3 discuss, but was never able to have that interchange.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
5 It was here's my position.
6 A one-sided input f telling me why I'm wrong 7 and having read the procedure on why Z more 8 qualified to read procedures and end of discussion.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
10 : So .very difficult 11 interchanges.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. I think I 13 got this from your notes. It says "after the meeting 14 you questioned yourself about pullin badge."
15 Yes.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Can you put that in 17 context?
18 Well, a very agitated 19 employee, heightened security warnings and memos in 20 our world that are saying if someone is not showing up 21 for work on time without an explanation or leaving 22 early, pull their badge.
23 So it was just an administrative hold of 24 badge until you understand the situation to make sure 25 the plant is safe.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
40 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
2 So that's the kind of 3 framework I was evaluating.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So based on 5 demeanor you were questioning whether you should keep 6 01n site or not?
7 Right. But I think I said 8 in that same time frame I still trust Thigh 9 ability in terms of the plant. It wasn't an issue.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And when you mean 11 pull the badge, that's not a denial or a -- you're 12 talking about the management hold?
13 - Yes, administrative hold.
14 Call security and say please prevent access to this 15 badge. It's not physically taking the badge and --
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right, right. I 17 just wanted to put that in context.
18 Did you have any discussions with anyone 19 about possibly putting a management hold?
20 In this case, I just made 21 the independent decision. It's within my realm of 22 decision making.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, and you 24 decided not to?
25 Correct.
NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
41 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And you decided not 2 to, why?
3 Just basic trust of 4 integrity with respect to plant security.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
6 ruly - -tanger seemed 7 to be focused at me, not at the nuclear --
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: World. Okay. Just I
II 9 you. I II tI 10 X indicates that verbal threats continued i
II i
11 untiliwas escorted from the site on 12 What would be your reaction t assertion of these 13 verbal threats?
14
- Well, we've jumped a 15 meeting, right?
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Yes. Well, we've 17 got a couple of meetings to go, but I decided to throw 18 this out before we go down -- but was just saying i9 basically from here to here, until leaves the site, 20 there are on-going verbal threats.
21 Do you see every day? Or I'm just 22 looking for a reaction to what throwing out 23 there.
24 ,~ We had limited conversations 25 between the 12th and the .. Arid that was because of NEAL R. GROSS /
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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
42 1 (gladthe meeting with on the 16th which 2 I'm not sure where I got that date. It was probably 3 from one of the things I reviewed. But from that 4 point to the 9th we had our WANO (Phonetic) inspection 5 and we just decided to let the issue rest during that 6 period just so we didn't have additional --
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Stress going on.
8 Stress during the 9 inspection. During that period we had very little 10 interaction on this. So 11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Just kind of let it 12 drop?
13 Yes. I know we specifically 14 avoided the issue during that period because of WANO.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, was 16 involved in WANO? Or is it more --
17 may have had some 18 occasional questions. Everyone on the site randomly 19 gets involved. I was more directly involved.
20 And _Pas intimately involved.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: There's a meeting 22 between and on July 16th. When did you 23 learn about that meeting and what's your understanding 24 of what was discussed?
25 I think it was probably that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
43 1 evening or the following day. I got side of it 2 from a voice mail. I understood that temporarily 3 told didn't need to be on the TARP team and 4 that was the -- j brought up. personal concerns 5 for taking the TARP assignment.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Personal concerns 7 being family concerns now?
8 Yes, family, distance from 9 site. My best recollection to that would have already 10 been written on the notes withL*
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Sure. So
- 12 concerns there are out beyond what your understanding 13 is. Did you talk t about that meeting?
14 mae a couple of days 15 later. Of course, the third part of that meeting was 16 recommendation that if till had a continuing 17 concern with the procedure to write a notification.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
19 Something we always 20 encourage.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Di explain to 22 you why_ temporarily took off the TARP? Was it 23 because of c oncerns about qualifications or was it 24 because of personal issues?
25 My understanding was it was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
44 1 the personal issues.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. And it was 3 a temporary?
4 sYes.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Replacement. Okay.
6 And how did you become aware that or 7 initiated the notification?* Is that from (Inaudible)?
8 I do a daily review of 9 notifications issued.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. What action 11 did you take once you became aware that t had 12 initiated a notification into his concerns about the 13 TARP?
14 T 7 At first nothing, because it 15 was assigned to Ken Moore who is in operations.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
17 And it was reassigned to 18 e to draft the response.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so your 20 recollection was it went to Moore first?
21 Yes.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And then reassigned 23 to m 24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE. And then reassigned NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
45 1 to you?
2 No, it was always assigned 3 to 4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you have any 5 input or review on behalf of _
6 Oh, I mean the official 7 assignment was always with It was to 8 answer. But m asked me to draft the response for 9 so I literally drafted, did the research and 10 drafted the response for approval.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Initially, it went 12 to Ken Moore?
13 Yes.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you know why it 15 was assigned from Moore to 16 It was done at the manager's 17 meeting. I have no knowledge of why it went that way.
18 It might have been because it was written by one of 19 e employees.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Because I spoke to 21 Ken Moore and his recollection was that you wrote it 22 and that you passed it on to him for review, is that 23 accurate?
24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: okay.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
46 1 I did the drafting. After 2 I drafted it I have it to Ken and said please take a 3 look at this and see if you agree with the facts.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And you would have 5 him review it, why?
6 ~ Because he was the technical 7 sponsor for the procedure. He seemed to be the most 8 authoritative person to be agreeing. I was a little 9 uncomfortable since I was the reason for 10 doing this.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right.
12 So I was looking for 13 independence and the best input I could get to make 14 this thing--
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Yes, because you 16 are kind of an awkward position because as a 17 supervisor you're making the assignment and then 18 you're reviewing it as well.
19 Yes.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you express 21 your concerns about that to anyone, you know, I'm 22 reviewing this thing that we're disagreeing on. Were 23 you worried about any independence?
24 Well,, the preparer doesn't 25 necessarily, in the design world, which I come from, NEAL R. GROSS.
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47 1 the preparer doesn't necessarily have to be 2 independent, but you need an independent review after 3 you do it.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
5 So in that perspective I was 6 not worried about doing the initial legwork and the 7 research, but I knew I wanted to get Ken Moore an 8 was also in that circle, so I wanted an independent 9 manager in addition tcrand that's whys -suggested 10 using Steve Mannon who was independent of it.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Walk me through.
12 What did you do to prepare the response to the 13 notification, like what kind of research did you do, 14 who did you talk to?
15 Read the procedure which is 16 the source. I guess I started with the perspective 17 that one aspect of it was the de facto staffing tool 18 which I thought was an easy answer and we're not using 19 a procedure on how to run TARP.to staff people, we're 20 just doing it by management assignment. That was a 21 clear fact. In terms of the questions on EP, I talked 22 to Bill (Inaudible). The concern was do we have the i 23 procedure required alignment with TARP and EP and my 24 understanding of that was we just put them on the same 25 shift. And it seemed like the obvious thing, but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
48 1 was reading more into it, so I went to EP and said am 2 I missing something here? They said no, you're right 3 on target. That's how you understand it.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was 5 reading into it, you indicated?
6 believed that you needed 7 to be an emergency plan member to be on the TARP team.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, and the 9 procedure does not state that, is that right?
10 That's correct.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. When you 12 took the notification to Ken Moore, did he concur with 13 your outcome or your results?
14 He concurred and put an 15 electronic signature on the answer.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so he had no 17 problems then with what you had researched?
18 That's correct.
i9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And he's the one 20 that has ownership for that particular procedure.
21 Right.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you have any 23 reaction to -- it sounds lik is just poking 24 keeps poking on this. You know when you got the 25 notification were you annoyed in any way or --
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
49 1 Say that again? I didn't 2 understand the question.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: osort of keeps 4 poking at the issue, keeps pushing it and once you got 5 the notification, did you have any reaction to that, 6 were you irritated that had written the 7 notification or did you just look at it as a way of 8 resolving the issue?
9 I know I wasn't irritated 10 with that. It's a wonderful, legitimate way to 11 resolve issues. I like notifications. I like 12 employee concerns. PDO. They're all things that I've 13 tried to encourage throughout my career here. They 14 work reasonable well for me and I like the processes.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is the process of 16 the notification, I guess that's to get it in the 17 Correction Action Program?
18 That's correct.
19 'SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is that the same as 20 doing a DPO or would that be --
21 It would be completely 22 independent. That would be using an independent 23 arbitrator.to hear both sides of the issue and help 24 reach a reasonable decision that both people agreed 25 'to.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
50 1 That would have been an arbitration 2 approach that would have had a third party with no 3 animosity.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So if was not 5 satisfied with the notification as it ended up-*_
6 could go to a DPO, take it outside of his organization 7 and resolve it there if he felt firmly about those 8 issues?
9 - Yes. Or write another 10 notification sayi was unsatisfied with the 11 disposition of the first one.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did he do that?
13 No.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
15 ijjTo the best of my knowledge.
16 1 screened them both, but I don't see them all.
.17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: But to the best of 18 your knowledgeUb didn't.
19 Now the notification review 20 is competed on the 5th which is a Monday andin 21 doesn't get it to the *m. Do you know what the delay 22 was giving the notification toA_
23 [End of Tape 1, Side A; begin Tape 1, Side 24 B.]
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We've flipped the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
51 1 tape. It's about 2:49 p.m. and we're now getting 2 into, moving to what happened on that 3 Friday.
4 If you can show me or pull out this 5 document what you would have given w to review, the 6 morning of the You said
- got a copied 7 evaluation and I'm interested in what you would have 8 given him.
9 It's this page.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Just for the record 11 so we know what we're talking about. I have a four 12 page document, 1, 2, 3, pages 1, 2, 3 and the fourth 13 page is actually number 1. And it says "see long 14 text." You only gave me one page?
Yes. The balance of it 16 would have been written by 17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so all this 18 one page is just lining out what the review process is 19 that's identified in the bottom line that there was 20 not any action or corrective actions required. So all 21 a had to do is read this one page?
22 Correct.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was your 24 intent? Walk me through, show me how you gave it to 25 w and what you explained what you wanted from _
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
52 1 by looking at this.
2 Mid-morning, 9, 10 o'clock.
3 Handed rep nse and askedi to please 4 review this and let's get together by noon to discuss 5 the answer.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
7 I wanted to get' opeful 8 acceptance of our disposition that there was no safety 9 issue with the procedure and that we could proceed 10 from there.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you were looking 12 at o review this, the response and agree to be on 13 TARP based on the fact that there was no problem with 14 _rqualifications?
15 Correct.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: u dicated you 17 kind of threw it atTi threw it on desk. Can 18 you demonstrate how you gave it to if you 19 remember?
20 don't do things like 21 that. I'm sure Ildthat and said please read 22 this and get back to me by noon."
1a 23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was i,,
24 response, if any, to your request? Did
- ocik at 25 you? Did Agnore you? Did Msay okay?.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
53 1 _ ) I don't remember the exact 2 response, but my general impression was we'll do it.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. SO you gave 4 it to around 9 or 10 with a request to meet with 5 you at noon.
6 Was working on any particular 7 projects on that day that you knew of whereawould 8 not have been able to immediately review this one page 9 or less than one page. It's really three quarters of 10 a page.
11 I.don,'t know of any -- there 12 was nothing that I assigned to that was important 13 nor didjagive me any feedback that wouldn't be 14 able to do it by noon which is kind of my expectation 15 of people. I give assignments. If you can't make it, 16 that's okay, tell me before it's due and we can 17 renegotiate time.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And walk me back 19 again. When you gave me this, you gave this 20 piece of paper, tell me exactly what you said tc( -
21 and what you communicated to what you were looking 22 for from nsthis?
23 My notes said I aske to 24 talk to me about it.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Talk about it. Did you NEAL R. GROSS
. COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
54 1 elaborate what about it meant?
2 _ I don't have a recollection.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: No problem.
4 indicated to me, that vzas working on the 5 reactor oversight process data that was due at noon on 6 X had a deadline. Are you awareAL had 7 a deadline?
8 -No.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And 10 characterized your discussion as being vague.
11 didn't really know what you were looking for fro 12 In words, S threw the paper down. didn't 13 really know what you were communicating to 5 Can 14 you react to that or not?
15 Okay, what happens? Does noon come and go 16 or do you hear from Explain to me what happens 17 next?
18 _ Noon came and went.
19 didn't talk to me. 1300, I asked i would 20 discuss the issue with me.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: The issue. Did you 22 use those words, the issue? Were you specific on what 23 you wanted to discuss with* C 24 I may not have been 25 specific, but I think this is the most significant NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
55 1 issue that* and I had, that it was clear that it was 2 our issue.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: accepting the 4 TARP assignment?
5 Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What happens next 7 here?
8 responded and this is 9 pretty much a quote, tha idn't have enough time 10 to prepare a defense. I toldo I still wanted to 11 meet now. refused. I asked that we move to a 12 conference room so we could be private. refused to 13 meet with me in a private area.
14 I.told V.) the organization had answered 15 oncern via the NUCR and found no issues with the 16 procedure. stated we were wrong, that had 17 agreed with nd would not discuss it.with me.
18 -was argumentative at that point and I again reminded 19 in of the differing position.
20 "Dasked if I read the procedure and 21 accused me of not following procedure, so it was a 22 confrontational discussion at that point.
23 I guess my issue at that point, was 24 being nonresponsive to my direction as supervisor 25 and they were reasonable requests, so I aske _ to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
56 1 leave site.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
3 My intent behind that was a 4 decision making --
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: That was your 6 intent. What did you communicate t ' DidX 7 know you wanteda to be on the decision making 8 leave?
9 As we left, I said* I 10 want you to think about your decision, come back on 11 Monday morning and we'll continue the discussion. In 12 fact, I didn't use the term decision making, but said 13 I want to further this discussion.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, becaus 15 testimony to me was that j had never heard the term 16 decision making leave before until he got the November 17 18th letter.
18 - It's very likely I did not 19 use that exact phrase, but I certainly said U I 20 want you to think about your decision."
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. So it was 22 clear tha L purpose for leaving was to consider 23 wha was going to do with respect to participating 24 in TARP and your givingf some time to go home and 25 cool of.and seriously consider it?
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57 1 Exact y. This was a 2 recommendation from Dave "Z=n, e manager of Human 3 Resources, that if we get into these discussions where 4 they're nonproductive and not getting us anywhere, 5 consider just using the option of temporary departure 6 to think through this.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Dave Brown, 8 is he here at the site?
9 Yes. He's manager of Human 10 Resources.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: *c laims thatu 12 was escorted to the gate and it was very embarrassing 13 for ad never been through it. Can you 14 describe how, ;sxited the site?
15 .4 Well, he -- I informedidw 16 to get ready. We walked out. To most people, I mean 17 to any -- it wasn't like I had in handcuffs and 18 walked him to the gate. To any observer it would have 19 looked like two people /lk' g to the gate.
20 SPECIAL AGEN ONROE: So you weren't 21 dragging Q out?
22 t Well, for some reason(J 23 wouldn't walk with m was lagging behind, so I was 24 iking slow and* was walking slow. There was no 25 s w or exhibition or anything that would have made NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
58 1 anyone believe --
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So no one would 3 have known that you were escortingw from the site?
4 No.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: There was no 6 discussion, no --
7 No.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: How dijareact to 9 your direction that ago home and think about this?
10 Did have any response?
11 - as pretty much shocked, 12 silence from the point I aske to leave. I don't 13 think eceived anything, including my suggestion 14 that my statement that please think about your 15 decisions.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
17 I could understands not 18 remembering it in the state was in at that time.
19
- was truly upset.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: )Wasshocked that 21
- was asked to leave?
22 Yes.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What happens next 24 witlirespect to O badge? Did you take any action to 25 -- previously, I guess, you had thought about doing a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
59 1 management hold on it.
2 _Yes. Same thing.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: At this point did 4 you? A 5 I did put 6 administrative hold. It seemed very appropriate 7 considering 3tate and you know, just asking 8 someone to leave is significant and there is that risk 9 of sabotage. Well, it's not sabotage --
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Something could 11 happen.
12
- It was the best thing to do 13 in the security environment we were in. It was a very 14 high security environment. Asking us to put people on 15 administrative leave for the -- just not showing up on 16 time would seem very reasonable to be asking that to 17 be put on administrative hold.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: How long did you 19 plan on having the admin. hold? What was your 20 intent? J j e 21 To bring it up right after 22 our meeting on Monday morning.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. So 24 essentially, it would have just been for Friday 25 afternoon and until you had the meeting on --
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60 1 Monday morning.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: When was the Monday 3 morning, meeting established? Was that as you were 4 escorti i_ off site or was that at some point 5 later?
6 t at the gate I reminded 7 I wanted at 8 o'clock in TB2 on 8 Monday morning.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And what was 10 response, if any?
11 _ I don't recall a response.
12 Dy have shook ha.I believe areceived it.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Would you have told 14 that you're putting badge on admin. hold?
15 Would you have given Be hat notification?
16 I didn't that, no.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Any reason why?
18 ~It didn't occur to me.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: All right.
20 Anything more you'd like to add or elaborate for that 21 August 9th meeting that you fee/would clarify the --
22 oh, let me back up. *t aid on August 9th you weren't 23 following the procedure. Did ell you what part of 24 the procedure you weren't following, and that's the 25 TARP procedure?
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1 2
-No.
SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You just didn't 61 6
3 elaborate?
4 No, just generally said 5 I wasn't following the procedure.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Right.
7 an dl alls you at home 8 regarding the meeting. Can you tell me 9 about that?
10 I was -- I'm sure you have 11 my notes. I'm looking at it (Inaudible). Otherwise, 12 I could just read your notes and not put you through 13 this.
14 ciff J It was 9:30. I was asleep.
15 It was a busy day for me. So I was semi-dazed, sound 16 asleep already. Aw alled me up, myot woke me up 17 and said one of your employees is on the phone j 18 first question was what's my status? I told 19 was still employed. U told me wanted QA at the 20 meeting the next morning. I told another 21 supervisor would be there. aid I wouldn't bring 22 in a QA.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Was it a short 24 call? Would you characterize it as kind of a short 25 call?
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62 1 ) Less than 5 minutes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. What else 3 would vm ave said during that five minute period?
4 - thought being asked to 5 leave the site was bizarre and didn't understand it.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So didn't 7 understand why was escorted off the site, but you 8 said 1 was kind of in a shocked state, so it may not 9 have sunk in.
I 10 Yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Did you restate to 12 I n Sunday why lpad been escorted off the site?
13 Do you remember?
14 said:I eeded to listen 15 to me and not talk to me. I said that. I don't think 16 I tol explicitly why was walked off site.
17 Then old me was not coming in the next day.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And why wasn't 19 coming in the next day?
20 said the events were 21 affecting health and was going to the doctor.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Why did you decline 23 ~equest to have QA present at your meeting?
of I /_^- Aid 24 I set up QA as an alternate 2 25 if lwanted to tal e me.
L R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
63 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
2 I viewed this as an issue 3 between nd I and they were available. I really 4 perceive wanted some independence there. That's 5 why I offered another supervisor there.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. What was the 7 purpose, what was your planned purpose of meeting with 8 on when l came in that Monday, what 9 was the intent of that meeting?
10 _ I was hoping would have 11 truly thought through the issues and would come to the 12 table ready. We had demonstrated we were willing to 13 take actions to make hink and that would come 14 to the table and enter into a dialogue wher X would 15 listen and have at least be able to argue on the facts 16 and the subject versus this bypassing conversation 17 that we've been having. It was always _ telling me 18 what was wrong and what we weren't doing right instead 19 of listening to my arguments, telling me my 20 arguments and truly doing the interchange that helps 21 you reach conclusions.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
23 That was my hope for that 24 meeting. And I was still trying to resolve and 25 reconcile this.
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64 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Right, so by not 2 having QA present, you had already offered that 3 avenue to go to QA and write the DPO?
4 - Yes.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is that right?
6 Uh-huh.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: inhad had more 8 than enough opportunities to take that path.
9 And at that meeting I either 10 had Neil Burg e e abbo (Phonetic) on standby.
11 If at that meeting said I want to talk to QA, 12 right outside the door, ready to come in and talk to 13 #lVIn I think it was Defabbo (Phonetic) at' that 14 meeting and Neil Burger on the second time.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I'm not following 16 you there. What meetings are you talking about here?
17 Oh, the--
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I kind of lost 19 track of that.
20 Well, we had the intended 21 meeting on that first 11th or 12th -- on the 12th.
22 That's when the first intended meeting and it actually 23 occurred on the 19th.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so the 25 purpose --
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65 1 At both points I had QA on 2 standby to talk t if for some reason it was 3 contentious or we needed QA engaged, they were ready 4 and available.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, if you had 6 them ready and available, just you know, like why 7 didn't you give 1w that concession and let them be in 8 there already? Have QA present in there.
9 Was the intent of your meeting to try and 10 communicate to why I had to take the TARP 11 assignment was more like a management subordinate 12 meeting? I'm just trying to understand if you have a 13 contentious building up now, why refuse to have QA sit 14 in if you had them ready to come in if you needed 15 them?
16 nI didn't see a QA part in a 17 discussion of problems with procedures, assignments, 18 to TARP team. It wasn't a direct part of the 19 conversation that I saw.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
21 It wasn't refusin the 22 opportunity to talk to QA. I didn't want them in the 23 conversation --
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, you wanted to 25 keep the two issues separate?
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66 1 Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. I i out, 3 the whole week of the 7 4 _e Yes. I 5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I saw a note that 6 you left a voice mail for Sunday at work. Is 7 there some reason why you would have left J a voice 8 mail at work versus callin ft at home? What was the 9 purpose pf that voice mail?
10 Well, the intent was to let 11 _~ know if gets to the gate before I get 12 badge cleared* wwas goirig to get a no entry which I 13 know is unsettling. Thait was my intent of getting 14 that to 15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Any reason not to 16 call head?
I I 17 I may have waited too long.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It was too late at 19 night?
I.
20 I think it was too late in
- 21 the morning.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
23 I really don't remember the 24 time frame I did it. I just know in the summer I'm a 25 heavy kayaker and I'm out every weekend.
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67 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Good for you. It 2 just said you left a voice mail for _ Sunday.
3 Then that's when I did it.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It would have been 5 what -- I'm just looking at if you want to make sure 6 the intent is to have t go to TB2 and not swipe 7 through to save kind of stress --
8 I didn't write it down so I 9 just have to defer to the notes towards my better 10 recollections.
11 12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE:
(Off the record.)
Sure.
I','
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: anted to take 14 a look at, refresh jj T recollection becausj4fspoke 15 to Tom Lake. What was your recollection of why you 16 called wat work versus home?
17 Well, I don't have a 18 recollecting of why I chose work versus at home, but 19 voice mail is a pretty universal method of 20 communication here, that I know I check on the way in 21 or regularly.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. So you would 23 have expected if had been out, was probably 24 checkin ff voice mail and might check it on Sunday 25 before ot in?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS vaiAIwnnrQ1RAmnl vJ PW
68 1 Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You were trying to 3 save the embarrassment of actually-going through 4 and finding out that whenms wiped his card, Owould 5 not have access?
6 _ Yes, but at the same time we 7 had a meeting set up in TB2 and we didn't expect 8 (Inaudible), s9f5 had the opportunity to listen to 9 that voice mail up through the conclusion of the 10 meeting we had.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What time was the 12 meeting scheduled, if you remember?
13 Probably, it was morning.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So it would be 15 first thing in the morning?
16 8, 9, somewhere in that.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Because you had to 18 resolve the issue before U could have
- access 19 reinstated?
20 Right.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE indicated also 22 that *idn't have access t omputer? Do you 23 know anything about that?
24 Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Does that go along NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
69 1 with --
2 It'9s a separate action, but 3 you just call computer services and say please 4 temporarily end access to the computer.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And who at computer 6 services would you have called, if you remember. If 7 not --
8 I don't recall.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And again, the 10 purpose of prohibiting f access to X omputer was 11 what, just consistent with removin f from.site for 12 that period of time? / II I
i 13 That's correct. II 14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Moving on to August 15 19th which was a Monday, there was a meeting with 16 Bob Settle and yourself. Again, if you'd 17 state what was the purpose or the agenda for the..
18 meeting and why Bob Settle was present?
19 Well, the previous meeting 20 An kaid n't want to meet with me alone, so I 21 was accommodating concern with being with me 22 alone and it was to the point of contention where I 23 wanted someone to help me take notes and make sure I 24 was being reasonable, so I was fulfilling that role.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And Bob is --
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70 1 what's his position?
2 He's an engineering 3 supervisor.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, and how did 5 you happen to choose Bob?
6 He sits in the same 7 building.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, lucky Bob.
9 Come on in.
10 The process, if you're going to have a 11 meeting with someone that could be contentious, it's 12 just a process to have someone else observe as a third 13 party?
14 It's -- the Mar\UManual 15 recommends bring a supervisor in to help you when you 16 have these issues.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, how would you 18 react to. belief that you and Settle were 19 intimidating in this meeting? felt that you were 20 intimidating What would be your reaction to 21 assertion of that?
22 It is not our intent to 23 intimidate. The intent was to negotiate.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. My plan 25 going into that meeting was let's -- state your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
71 1 concern and then we'd start a dialogue discussing it.
2 I had planned contingencies on whether it went bad 3 versus good.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What were your 5 contingencies if it went bad?
6 It was again just to ask 7 to take another leave.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, another 9 decision making leave?
10 And then we'd -- well, if we 11 didn't have safety concerns and it was a direct 12 insubordination, it would have been more of a 13 suspension versus a decision making leave.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
15 But a suspension is pretty 16 much the same status. You're still being paid. It 17 still doesn't kind of take any discipline because I 18 don't have the power for discipline.
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: W raised a good 20 point. Whena left the site on Friday, the 21 was not suspended. Ow as in a paid decision making 22 leave, is that right?
23 That's correct.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So decision making 25 leave, is that a punitive action?
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72 1 In no way.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So 5 was not 3 suspended from employment?
4 No.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And then from the 6 12th to the 19th, S as out on sick leave, is that 7 correct?
8 That's correct.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: was not 10 suspended from mployment? I mean s kind of 11 looked --
12 ould have come back at 13 any moment from that Monday forward.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So mJwas out on 15 sick leave. j was not in a suspension status for any 16 kind of behavioral reasons?
17 That's correct.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What do you recall 19 either from your notes or from your recollection, the 20 meeting, the discussion with on that Monday, the 21 19th?
22 (Pause.)
23 I start out by asking A 24 ifo would reconsider taking the TARP position.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Are those notes you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
73 1 want to read in or make an attachment to the 2 transcript? I don't think I've seen those before, 3 have I?
4 - I don't think--
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Do you want to take 6 a minute so you can look at them, too?
7 - Yes.
8 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let's just go off 9 the record at 3:15 p.m. to look at the notes.
10 (Off the record.)
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We're just back on 12 the record. We're looking at what I have in the 13 binder as two pages of handwritten notes that I 14 made. Were these notes taken during the meeting or 15 afterwards?
16 During the meeting.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. And if you 18 want to -- you can read your handwriting better than 19 me on this one. If you want to read them into the 20 record or how you best want to explain what happened 21 during that meeting.
22 I want to take a minute and 23 re-read them.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, sure.
25 (Off the record.)
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74 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I guess, what 2 you want to do is rely on your handwritten notes and 3 then also rely on the interview that you had with Tom 4 Lake on September 4th, is that, the best way to 5 recollect or piece together the meeting?
6 Yes, it is. And -- well, we 7 started the meeting with me askinR_ to reconsider 8 the position and then started to assertA11 9 multiple reasons for not wanting to take the 10 assignment.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Which you're now 12 talking about lives in the border 13 and could not get here in 60 minutes.
14 Right.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE:
16 TARP is not doing everything 17 that is required by procedure. These are numbered 1 18 through 7; Are these the order in whichj presented 19 the concerns, if you remember?
20 Yes, at least the first two 21 items, the;third item. Yes, first several are in the 22 right order, so we can assume the rest are in the 23 correct order.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, and then it 25 indicate d then asked what the consequences were of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE. N.W.
75 1 not taking the assignment. What's that mean? Can you 2 elaborate on that? asking you -- is this where 3 you feel lik weighing --
4 This is the second time I 5 believe was negotiating or trying to understand the 6 cost of not taking the assignment, essentially trying 7 to say what am I going to have to pay if I don't take 8 this versus raising explicit safety issues.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So that's where 10 you're wondering is3 trying to negotiat out 11 of it or does have a valid safety concern about why 12
- doesn't want to take the assignment?
13 Well, I heard safety 14 issues. I restated that I didn't believe they were 15 valid safety issues and I truly didn't believe that 16 based on my investigation, I really didn't have an 17 opportunity to discuss or at leas tWasn't receiving 18 again when I attempted to discuss this.
19 I askedij hat other issues sohad. UI 20 talked about ability to -- 3 concern with 21 sequestering )at home, suggests that we could 22 work around that.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It says here "I 24 again asked, as I did several times in the meeting if 25 S would accept the assignment."
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76 1 Did ever give you a response. You 2 asked S4several times. will you accept the 3 assignment? Did give you a response?
4 Well, the closest I got was 5 "whatever" or something to that which at the time I 6 interpreted it as a no.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you would have 8 asked and goatever."
9 Words to that effect.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And why would you 11 interpret that as a no?
12 _ Probably the stress of the 13 situation. It wasn't the answer I expected so it was 14 a poor interpretation under stress.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
16 ____________ Rescinded quickly as soon as A -----
17 -I understood and apologized.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you're 19 interpreting i whatever"'to mean no an saying 20 well, "whatever, just -- you know, all right."
21 _ I'll do whatever you want.
22 I think that was the closer phase, "I'll do whatever 23 you want" or something like that.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so you didn't 25 interpret that to be an acceptance of the assignment?
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77 1 - That's correct.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What did you utter 3 after srmade that? What did you say toIw 4 Therefore, you're on 5 suspension.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. On 7 suspension.
8 And then what didj Xsay next?
9 I don't remember exactly how 10 it got turned around. It was either, Bob, pointing 11 out thatl*didn't say no, or quickly responding 12 "I'll do what you want." At which point I immediately 13 rescinded and apologized and jumping to that 14 conclusion.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, so you did 16 apologize to i_
17 Yes.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It doesn't sound 19 like it was a very easy situation to have a meeting
.20 wit huh?
21 It was a high anxiety 22 meeting, yes.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Yes, okay.
24 This is not a regular 25 interaction you have with employees here.
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78 1 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Fortunately, you 2 don't have to do that every day. 1 indicated that 3 you made a statement that you put qualifiers that you 4 couldn't mention a railing about performance 5 indicators, that you couldn't complaint about 6 management?
7 Performance indicators is a 8 misstatement. I meant industrial safety goals.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What's that? I'm 10 not following you.
11 We have a yearly goal that 12 has an OSHA accident rate. Our number is like .53.
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: You see it when you 14 come in the gate.
15 It represents hours per 16 hundred thousand. And elieves management picked 17 a number that wasn't appropriate with the industry, 18 that it was wrong. It's not fair and generally,l 19 discussions within the group borders on sedition with 20 respect to working with the company and I just wanted 21
- to stop these non-team building discussions that 22 aren't fruitful if we're going to work for the 23 organization.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So w misstated 25 performance indicators are actually OSHA goals on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
79 1 accident-free operation?
2 That's correct.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Why would be 4 interested in 5 It's tied to money rewards 6 for us. So it is a passionate concern, but A was 7 taking it to a level in public forums that was 8 inappropriate for the work place.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What was doing?
10 An example --
11 - Bringing co-workers into the 12 office, spending time researching equals, just 13 building a level of disconnect, discontent with co-14 workers which I don't believe is appropriate. We 15 don't have free speech in the work place with respect 16 to executive decisions.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Sure. Was~E 18 encouraging people to not have an accident? I don't 19 get what trying to do when bringing these 20 people i o s talking about it. What's 21~
22 : Well, just general 23 discussions of the ineptness of management are not 24 appropriate.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. So thinks NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
80 1 management is inept.
2 With respect to picking the 3 OSHA goals.
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. Okay. Did 5 you ever use the term to " )"railing"? Did you use 6 that word "railing"?
7 Probably. It's a term I'll 8 use. It was probably stop railing against our OSHA 9 safety concerns.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
11 There was another statement 12 you quoted me saying with respect to -- what was that?
13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Because it just 14 said -- the question Tom asked you, did you mention 15 anything about railing about performance 16 indicators, not with me, but you think you were 17 talking about the OSHA accident rate. I see what it 18 is. te elling, 0 told Tom. and I both that you 19 told i o stop talking about performance indicators 20 and it was really the OSHA accident rate. Okay, got 21 it.
22 _ can talk about 23 performance indicators all wants since it'sm 24 job.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Yes. ThatIs why I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
81 1 thought it was a little odd. Okay. When was 2 access reinstated? to Wt.\ MCkae ;.Imr;ea:& i
-~pr Noec;\Ary \v 'es 3 :*I attempted to do it right 4 after the meeting. It took longer than I expected.
5 I think it was more like 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: How long was this 7 meeting, can you recall? Was it an hour, was it 15 8 minutes?
9 I'd have to speculate.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Why don't you give 11 a guess?
12 Maybe 20 minutes would be a 13 guess, 30 minutes.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And they did it 15 take longer than expected to get access 16 reinstated?
17 It was internal to security.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
19 I'm certain I called 20 promptly after the meeting.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
22 - And I think they even told 23 me it would be an hour.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. So it was on 25 the security end that was holding it up?
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82 1 Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What's _
3 current status with respect to participation in 4 TARP?
5 has a medical disability 6 that's preventing from working on TARP.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: What's that 8 disability?
9 That's personal. I'm not 10 sure I should discuss that.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is it medication?
12 Is it behavioral? Is it--
13 2 A personal thing is a 14 personal thing.
15 MR. KEENAN: One thing we're sensitive 16 about, obviously, is --
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let's --
18 (Off the record.)
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I just wanted to 20 take a look at my notes here a little bit. So 21 not on the TARP team for personal or health or medical 22 reasons.
23 At any point, did you threaten and 24 this is kterminolo received threats of a poor 25 performance appraisal? Threats is word, not mine.
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83 1 Or was the mention of the performance appraisal --
2 Yes, we already discussed 3 that in this discussion. It was in one of the earlier, 4 meetings where we discussed a consequence of not 5 taking the assignment. It could be salary adjustment 6 and performance partnership.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And another 8 consequence of not taking the assignment, could be 9 termination?
10 That was in a later 11 discussion.
12 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you're 13 describing then as consequences. *is interpreting 14 and related to me as a threat.
15 Just some bullets for you to throw out.
16 11 felt thatai asn't qualified for TARP because h>
17 had no emergency plan qualifications or event guide 18 classification training.
19 Did need that to fulfill 20 responsibility?
21 solutely not. 'Almost no 22 one on TARP teams has that training except people who 23 are actually in the EP Department. EP Department 24 members are actually on the TARP team and they're the 25 people we use to actually make those event NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
84 1 classification double checks. So if we have an alert, 2 we bring in Detwiler (Phonetic) or someone who is 3 fully qualified to make those calls.-
4 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Who is Detwiler?
5 Is that an individual?
6 Yes, a guy in EP. He's one 7 of the TARP team members that is in the Emergency Plan 8 Department that is qualified to help with those 9 decisions.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: a lso indicated 11 the procedure is heavily weighted towards the E-plan, 12 the TARP team becomes the E plan under certain 13 circumstances. Do you know what* talking about 14 there?
15 ' A certain classification, 16 the TARP team was dissolved and the EP plan takes 17 over. TARP team is sent home.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So would go 19 home?
20 Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: If you enter into 22 an emergency classification, you're superseded by the 23 Emergency Plan. That's right.
24 That's correct.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: & indicated that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
85 1 the TARP team helps make sure the plan has not entered 2 an emergency classification. Is that part of their 3 function?
4 Yes, but the -- well, they 5 don't make sure -- no. The TARP team is not in charge 6 of picking up the event classification guide and 7 making a decision. Control room or the EP person in 8 charge.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: indicated that 10 you downplayed the actual procedural requirements of 11 TARP. Did you in any way blo f off on concerns 12 or any way give_ the impression that you were
- 13. downplaying concerns about the procedures?
14 No. All I ever said was I 15 read the procedure and my interpretation is this.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. All right, 17 now when i not on TARP, who wasln replacement 18 and how did that come about? Do you remember? j 19 Yes. Once a person in my 20 group got the responsibility for TARP, an wouldn't 21 take it, it was my responsibility to find another 22 member that was qualified.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
24 I talked to two people, 25 Frank Todd and Frank said yes.
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86 1 said yes. I elected to pick VI0-as the better 2 qualified and better experience and skills than Frank.
3 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: How did you go 4 about it? I mean this is an assignment. You expected 5 and I'm just -- correct me if I'm not right, bu Z 6 was identified by the management to be a TARP member.
7 You expected him to accept the assignment?
8 e Yes.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: The way you 10 characterized it to me was you asked Frank Todd and 11 you asked whose name I cannot pronounce --
12** 3 I 13 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Why would you ask 14 them and expect --
15 They were being temporarily 16 -- it was a temporary assignment.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Temporary in what 18 aspect?
19 It was their assignment 20 until took the position.
21 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
22 So this was early in the 23 issue when I needed a person to take it.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you're going to 25 them saying you're going to have a temporary NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
0 "
1 assignment until?
2 I didn't give them an end 3 date, but I just said it could be several months. I 4 said would you be willing to take the position?
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Because 6 recollection was that you asked aif W wanted to be 7 on it and there was a set time he was supposed to be 8 on it. Does that --
_ I'm sure I told A the 10 maximum~was a year.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay, maximum. So 12 you weren't treating _ any differently. Let me 13 make sure I have this stated clearly, is that i was 14 the designated individual by management?
15 -Right.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: A refused it. And 17 then _, came up with the medical reasons why M 18 couldn't be on it, but in the end term you needed 19 someone to substitute for.q. so you asked those 20 individuals to substitute.
21 Correct.
22 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: So you did not 23 treat, by asking these guys, you weren't treating them 24 different than 25 See what I'm saying? I Jis told to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
1 on it and it sounds to me like these guys were given 2 the option to be on it.
3 Do you want to be on the TARP team?
4 _ If said no, they may not 5 have had an option with me. My style is to say please 6 do this for me.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: That's fine.
8 I tend not to be directive 9 unless I need to be.
10 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I just want to make 11 sure that there wasn't a different expectation between 12 those two?
13 No.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let me throw 15 something out at you. This came from - and just to 16 have a response or reaction to it. thinks or 17 believes, made a statement that PSE&G Nuclear has 18 created a hostile work environment in which nuclear 19 safety issues cannot be properly resolved.
20 saying resolved and I'm interpreting that to being 21 raised.
22 What's your reaction to feeling or 23 position on that? Has created a hostile work 24 environment. 'a didn't say you created. just 25 saying PSE&G Nuclear created a hostile work NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
89 1 environment in which nuclear safety issues cannot be 2 properly raised.
3 I personally believe it's 4 unfounded.
5 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And what's your 6 basis for that belief?
7 1_ I regularly write 8 notifications. I regularly talk to my manager. I can 9 walk into an operations control room and I have done 10 it and expressed my concerns and there's been no 11 issues or repercussions or -- I mean there's often 12 challenging, why do you really believe that, is that 13 true? But there's never been hostility towards my 14 raising safety concerns. So my experience and the 15 experience of my employees, I've never seen an 16 inappropriate reaction to raising a safety concern.
17 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Can you speculate 18 on why _ would have that feeling that has this 19 belief or this assertion that there is a hostile work 20 environment? If you can't, don't --
21 can't speculate although 22 it's one tool to get t objective of not working 23 on the TARP team.
24 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: I thought it was 25 interesting in here. said early on thatinfelt NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
90 1 lk was being retaliated against. This is Tom Lake 2 asking. Do you have any idea what
- was referring 3 to? And you actually said no, that actually annoys me 4 because being a whistle blower is a right, not an 5 opportunity to avoid an assignment. What do you mean 6 by that? You think I was raising these concerns just 7 to avoid the assignment, rather than having a firm 8 belief there was a safety issue?
9 When I step back and look at 10 the full sequence of events, that was my conclusion on 11 the (Inaudible). I encourage CW to follow the 12 procedure. In fact, I called Tom and said please, 13 isn't going to take advantage of this. Please 14 c 1 nd follow through. I truly believe it's a 15 good process and 0 needed to use it.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
17 _ To some degree, I regret 18 that statement. It's not exactly accurate or I don't 19 think that's me in the best light.
20 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Well, you can 21 clarify that here now, if you want. It's just -- now 22 that I have it as an attachment to the transcript, I 23 felt responsible to --
24 a ReRe d it to me again.
25 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: It says said' NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 17.7 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
91 1 early on
- felt% was being retaliated against. Do 2 you have any idea what referring to.
3 Your response is no. That actually annoys 4 me because being a whistle blower is a right, not an 5 opportunity to avoid an assignment.
6 Is there anything you want to clarify or 7 add or -- maybe -- does that not represent what your 8 feeling was?
9 How about if I asked the question and you 10 answer it as you would now. Let's just say* said 11 earlier on_ J felt
- was being retaliated against.
12 Do you have any idea what " referring to? How 13 would you respond to me on that one?
14 I Read it one more time, 15 please.
16 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: said earlier 17 on felt bwas being retaliated against. That's 18sition to me and the NRC and obviously I guess 19 Tom Lake. Do you have any idea what referring 20 to?
21 as referring to my 22 request tha ulfill his obligations of the job.
23 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
24 I believe throughout this 25 period, I've tried to address the safety concerns NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
92 1 directly in the best way I could and after addressing 2 it as best I could, askeq ^ to take the assignment.
3 In discussing, and it appears that
- believed any 4 time I discussed the consequences of not performing 5 your job duties was retaliation.
6 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay.
7 So that's my understanding 8 of what nking there.
9 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: One more thing.
10 Management's lack of sensitivity to nuclear safety, 11 PSE&G management has a lack of sensitivity to nuclear 12 safety. They have an excessive focus on short-term 13 production goals. Any reaction or response to that?
14 I see no evidence of that.
15 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Let's go off the 16 record at 3:35. I'm going to go through my notes.
17 And then we'll come back on.
18 (Off the record.)
19 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We were off the 20 record for about 5 minutes. I don't have any more 21 questions to ask.
22 Jeff did indicate there was one phrase 23 that might not come out the right -- what the intent 24 or what was meant to have been said, so we'll just 25 correct that when the transcript comes out.
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93 1 MR. KEENAN: Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Okay. And there's 3 three questions I have to ask you. Have I or any 4 representative of the NRC present here today 5 threatened you in any manner?
6 NNo.
7 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Have you been 8 offered any reward in return for the information you 9 provided during this interview?
10 No.
11 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: And have you 12 provided the information freely and voluntarily?
13 ~Yes.
14 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: Is there anything 15 you'd like to add or elaborate for the record at this 16 point in time?
17 No.
18 SPECIAL AGENT MONROE: We'll go off the 19 record at 3:50 p.m. Thanks.
20 (Whereupon, at 3:50 p.m., the interview 21 was concluded.)
22
- &3MC f ~ ,ae
^ eo MA' M 23 1- . aq\A' 24 0-' C,, -t1 1 1.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-010 Location: Artificial Island, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Francesca k Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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