ML021490065
| ML021490065 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 05/09/2002 |
| From: | Macon W NRC/NRR/DLPM |
| To: | |
| Macon W, NRR/DLPM/LPDIII-02, 415-3965 | |
| References | |
| 2.206, NRC-390 | |
| Download: ML021490065 (23) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Conference Call on the 2.206 Petition on Nuclear Plant Safety Docket Number:
50-346 Location:
(teleconference)
Date:
Thursday, May 9, 2002 Work Order No.:
NRC-390 Pages 1-17 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 CONFERENCE CALL ON THE 2.206 PETITION ON NUCLEAR 4
PLANT SAFETY 5
OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 6
DIVISION OF LICENSING AND PROJECT MANAGEMENT 7
(NRR/DPLM) 8
+ + + + +
9
- THURSDAY, 10 MAY 9, 2002 11
+ + + + +
12 TELEPHONE CONFERENCE CALL 13
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14 The Conference Call on the 2.206 Petition 15 on Nuclear Plant Safety convened at 2:30 p.m.
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
2 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
(2:30 p.m.)
2 MS. SKAY: Okay. I believe weve got 3
everybody on the phone. Im Donna Skay, 2.206 4
Petition Manager for NRC.
5 Well also go around the room here. There 6
are several people in the room; well introduce 7
ourselves. First of all, I would like to introduce 8
Bill Macon. Hell be the Petition Manager for this 9
2.206 petition.
10 MR. MARSH: And Im Tad Marsh. Im the 11 PRB Chairman.
12 MR. BERKOW: Herb Berkow, PRB member.
13 MR. LONG: Im Steve Long, risk analyst, 14 sitting in.
15 MR. LODGE: Couldnt hear that. Could you 16 please speak up?
17 MR. LONG: Im Steve Long. Im a risk 18 analyst in NRR, and Im sitting in. Im not a member 19 of the Board.
20 MR. MARSH: Okay.
21 MR. SUBBARATNUM: Ram Subbaratnum, NRR.
22 MS. LEE: Andrea Lee, NRR staff.
23 MR. HISER: Alan Hiser, NRR staff.
24 MR. NIEH: Ho Nieh, EDO staff.
25
3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. BLOOM: Steve Bloom, coordinator for 1
the Davis-Besse issue.
2 MR. GOLDBERG: Jack Goldberg, Office of 3
General Counsel.
4 MR. BAJWA: Singh Bajwa, Project Director, 5
NRR.
7 MR. MARSH: Great.
8 MR. NAKOSKI: John Nakoski, NRR.
9 MR.
GUNTER:
Paul
- Gunter, Nuclear 10 Information and Resource Service.
11 MR. MARSH: Okay. Why dont we have the 12 folks on the phone reintroduce themselves, too, 13 please.
14 MR. LODGE: Im Terry Lodge from the 15 Toledo Coalition for Safe Energy, one of the 16 Petitioners.
17 MS. PATRONIK-HOLDER: Christine Patronik-18 Holder, Safe Energy Communication Council, Petitioner.
19 MS. HIRT: Alice Hirt, Dont Waste 20 Michigan. Im a Petitioner.
21 MR. EDGAR: George Edgar, Morgan Lewis, 22 representing FirstEnergy.
23 MR. LESSyE: Roy Lessy, Akin Gump, also on 24 behalf of FirstEnergy.
25
4 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. MARSH: Okay. Jack, youre on there?
1 Jack Grobe?
2 MR. BERKOW: He was.
3 MR. MARSH: Is Jack Grobe from Region III 4
at the Davis-Besse site there. Is he on the line?
5 MR. GROBE: Can you hear me?
6 MR. MARSH: Now we can hear you. Can you 7
hear us okay?
8 MR. GROBE: Yes, very good. Thank you.
9 MR. MARSH: Okay. Great. Lets go ahead 10 and get started.
11 Good afternoon. As I say, my name is Tad 12 Marsh. Im the PRB Chairman. And the subject of this 13 teleconference is a 2.206 petition that was submitted 14 by David Lochbaum on behalf of several organizations 15 dated April 24, 2002.
16 The Petitioners have requested that the 17 NRC issue an Order to the licensee for the Davis-Besse 18 nuclear power plant requiring a Verification by an 19 Independent Party for issues related to the reactor 20 vessel head corrosion.
21 The purpose of this teleconference is to 22 allow the Petitioners to address the Petition Review 23 Board. This is an opportunity for the Petitioners to 24 provide additional explanations or to support their 25
5 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 petitions. This is also an opportunity for the staff 1
and for the licensee to ask any clarifying questions.
2 The purpose of the teleconference is not 3
to debate the merits of the petition or to make any 4
decisions. It is merely to gain information.
5 Following this call, the Petition Review 6
Board will meet today to determine whether the NRC 7
accepts the petition under the 2.206 process, or 8
whether it will be dealt with under another mechanism.
9 The PRBs meeting today will not determine whether we 10 agree or disagree with the contents of the petition.
11 The conference is being transcribed, so it 12 will be -- it will help when making a statement to 13 first state your name clearly.
14 Did anybody come on the line?
15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Michael Keegan, 16 Coalition for a Nuclear Free Great Lakes.
17 MR. MARSH: Okay. Thanks for joining us.
18 Just briefly, we have folks here in the office in 19 headquarters and on the telephone representing the 20 Petitioners and also the licensee.
21 My name is Tad Marsh, and Im the Petition 22 Review Board Chairman.
23 The purpose of todays call, briefly, is 24 to gain information regarding the petition and to ask 25
6 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 any questions which the staff or the licensee may need 1
in helping us decide whether to proceed with the 2.206 2
process.
3 We have requested that the Petitioners 4
keep their remarks to a total of about 30 minutes. If 5
the PRB decides that the petition will be considered 6
under the 2.206 process, then the NRC will issue an 7
acknowledgment letter to the Petitioners.
8 The Petition Manager will keep the 9
Petitioners and the licensee periodically informed of 10 the progress in the staffs review.
11 Paul Gunter is here on the part of the 12 Petitioners, in addition to the phone callers.
13 Paul, would you like to -- how would you 14 like to proceed? Do you want to go first, or would 15 you like the parties on the phone to go first?
16 MR. GUNTER: Terry Lodge is our point of 17 contact for the initial --
18 MR. MARSH: Okay.
19 MR. GUNTER: -- presentation here. So --
20 MR. MARSH: Okay. Great. Thank you.
21 Terry, would you proceed, please?
22 MR. LODGE: Yes, thank you. Im going to 23 presume a fair degree of information on the part of 24 the panel. Im going to presume that youve read the 25
7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 petition and are at least, to some extent, aware of 1
the ongoing Commission involvement in working with and 2
meeting with both the public as well as the utility 3
and its consultants.
4 As you know, or can tell from the face of 5
the Petition, the gist of what the dozen or so 6
interveners are seeking is an independent panel which 7
can -- which will undertake an independent review of 8
various safety and safety-related systems above and 9
beyond the containment shell problem itself.
10 Dave Lochbaum was the principal author of 11 the Petition. As he notes in considerable detail, the 12 volume of borated water that was flashed to steam, 13 even conservatively during the period of about -- its 14 from May 99 through February of 2002 -- probably was 15 at least 260,000 gallons of water that was flashed off 16 to steam which -- a large proportion of which became 17 boric acid dust and settled on and in and around the 18 various components housed within the containment 19 structure.
20 As we all collectively, Im sure, can 21 agree, the ventilation system within the containment 22 structure ensured pretty wide disbursement of that 23 material throughout the building, which is pretty 24 large.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 That problem can create a number of 1
difficulties, particularly corrosion-related 2
difficulties, and Im not a corrosion engineer or an 3
engineer, in fact, but can certainly create a lot of 4
havoc with electrical components of which there are 5
probably thousands, if not millions, located in --
6 within the containment building.
7 We are requesting an independent outside 8
review panel for a number of reasons. There is a very 9
clear growing and disturbing history of non-response 10 and inactivity by FirstEnergy and its predecessors 11 dating back to at least 1987 when the first of a 12 number of generic warnings, reminders, and messages 13 were transmitted from the Nuclear Regulatory 14 Commission to the utility regarding the problems with 15 borated water.
16 And in 1987, in fact, there was an 17 incident at Turkey Point where there was about a 500-18 pound deposit of boric acid crystal on top of the 19 reactor there, on top of the reactor vessel.
20 In any event, there is a disturbing 21 history, as I say, on the utility side of this. But 22 more than that, a number of us have been to the April 23 public meeting that was convened by the NRC and have 24 been tracking this either as participants or public 25
9 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 followers of public hearings that the NRC has 1
convened.
2 It appears that even though the NRC was 3
indeed sending out plant-specific or generic notices, 4
there was no regulatory follow-up and oversight, at 5
least of any magnitude, and certainly none of it has 6
made its way into the press reports that I have seen 7
regarding what the NRC did to ensure that the utility 8
company was acting on any of the information it was 9
receiving about the CRDM nozzles, about leakage, about 10 boric acid.
11 So Lochbaum, in drafting this Petition, he 12 also contacted a number of people who are independent 13 experts that we believe fairly would be recognized as 14 such within the nuclear power industry, and certainly 15 by FirstEnergy and the NRC.
16 We believe that a panel such as this can 17 essentially verify a number of things that are bullet-18 pointed in the Petition regarding the problems with 19 accumulation, the problems with utility responses to 20 NRC communications, the problems with safety equipment 21 and safety-related equipment, etcetera.
22 We are aware that there is a Manual 0350 23 Panel within the NRC that is I guess in the process of 24 being assembled, and we are generally I understand --
25
10 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and I think a lot of the other public petitioners 1
understand what the thrust of that body would be, and 2
the results that would be expected.
3 But that appears to be more of a direct 4
hands-on sort of high visibility regulatory step as 5
opposed to what we believe is more of a problem 6
identification approach.
7 As Mr. Lochbaum pointed out in the 8
petition originally, at Millstone an independent VIP 9
such as we are asking be set up was established, and 10 it was established at a point in time when there was 11 still concern about root cause identification, which 12 we believe still appears to be a problem, or at least 13 a series of unanswered questions with Davis-Besse.
14 And also, one of the reasons for the 15 establishment of the VIP at Millstone was because of 16 the NRCs own acknowledgment that its role in 17 regulatory oversight was not particularly sufficient 18 in the period of several years leading up to the 19 problems at Millstone.
20 For those reasons, we believe that there 21 needs to be considerably more explanation to the 22 public, conduct of a public process around identifying 23 the root causes, and dealing with the root causes.
24 Also, we believe that what is happening at 25
11 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Davis-Besse, which I understand at least may be 1
completely without any other similar type of problems 2
in a reactor a quarter-century old, it appears that 3
this is happening at this -- to this degree at least 4
only at Davis-Besse. But we believe that this is a 5
sign of aging, one that was not anticipated when the 6
evaluation of the safety components within the reactor 7
dome was performed back in the construction stages.
8 We dont believe that boric acid exposure 9
for prolonged periods of time was one of the concerns 10 that the containment building components was subjected 11 to by way of engineering analysis. And we believe 12 that its going to be very necessary for that process 13 to happen now as a result.
14 I think thats about all I have at this 15 point. I think the other Petitioners and I would be 16 happy to take any questions you have.
17 MR. GUNTER: Can I add something?
18 MR. MARSH: Sure, Paul. Yes.
19 MR. GUNTER: This is Paul Gunter, Nuclear 20 Information Resource Service. I would -- I concur 21 with Terrys overall presentation. I would only add 22 that because FirstEnergy intends to leave -- at least 23 in its current plan to leave the pressure vessel head 24 in service repaired, it underscores our concern for 25
12 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the need for an independent verification, particularly 1
the root cause.
2 Ive had the opportunity to attend ACRS 3
meetings on this issue, the AIT, and the most recent 4
briefing with staff and FirstEnergy on their root 5
cause. And what I have gleaned from it only 6
substantiates the need for this VIP, particularly 7
because it would seem apparent -- it seems apparent to 8
me that there is -- that there are some issues left 9
out.
10 One particular issue that I think that 11 would be of great import would be to have an 12 independent look at the potential for undercutting by 13 corrosion that has not been fully bounded by 14 FirstEnergys presentation and root cause. We would 15 be most interested in having the confidence from -- by 16 independent verification that FirstEnergy has actually 17 found the problem, particularly because they intend 18 the leave the vessel head in service.
19 I think the NRC gleans the additional 20 benefit of having more people, qualified people, 21 looking at this issue by providing someone outside --
22 you know, a group of people outside of the NRC and 23 FirstEnergy to basically look at this as a bounding 24 issue.
25
13 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. MARSH: Thank you, Paul.
1 MR. KEEGAN: Michael Keegan with the 2
Coalition for a Nuclear Free Great Leaks. This is a 3
beyond maximum credible scenario, and Im particularly 4
disturbed on the credibility of the Nuclear Regulatory 5
Commission going back to 1988 when Davis-Besse had 6
said that they had put some measures in place to look 7
for the potential on the reactor head.
8 And I dont know if the NRC signed off on 9
it or not, but they didnt -- they didnt investigate 10 it. And now were here -- here we are, you know, 14 11 years later, and now you come up with a 0350 process 12 that basically says, "Trust us. Were going to follow 13 this special process now."
14 There is a tremendous credibility gap 15 here, and I do not have confidence in the NRC to 16 conduct a credible investigation. And I wont be 17 satisfied until there is a VIP.
18 MR. MARSH: Okay, sir. Thank you.
19 Any other comments from folks on this?
20 Anyone else? Any questions of Paul or of Mr. Lodge?
21 Okay. We thank you very much for your 22 comments. Theyve all been transcribed. They will 23 all be looked at carefully to make sure that we 24 consider them in our thoughts and in our 25
14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 deliberations.
1 Again, the purpose of todays call and 2
discussions with you is not to make any decisions at 3
this point. We want to gain as much clarification as 4
we can for the concerns that are behind the petition 5
itself.
6 So with that, unless there is any more 7
discussions or dialogue, Im going to close the 8
- meeting, and thank you all very much for 9
participating.
10 Thank you.
11 (Whereupon, several parties exited the 12 conference call.)
13 MR. GUNTER: I guess the meeting is over?
14 MR. MARSH: Yes. Did you want to add 15 something?
16 MR. GUNTER: I just wanted --
17 MR. MARSH: Can we --
18 MR. GUNTER: I would like to add -- I 19 think its important, if I could comment on the 20 record. I dont mean to put you on the spot.
21 MR. MARSH: Are we still being recorded?
22 MR. BERKOW: No.
23 MR. MARSH: Are we still being recorded?
24 Paul, Im sorry. Weve lost the connection. The 25
15 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 other parties wouldnt be able to hear either.
1 MR. BAJWA: If you want to --
2 MR. MARSH: Sure. Sure.
3 MR. GUNTER: If I could --
4 MR. MARSH: Okay.
5 MR. GUNTER: The issue is, you know, if 6
Davis-Besse were to decide to change out the vessel 7
head, would that affect our petition? Or the need for 8
a Verification by an Independent Party?
9 And, clearly, I think that all of the 10 Petitioners would agree that it wouldnt necessarily, 11 although we certainly would gain more confidence from 12 this reactor moving forward with the -- with a head 13 change-out.
14 But the question that we have is clearly:
15 how did all that -- I mean, first of all, how much 16 boric acid is in containment? Because I dont think 17 that that has really been nailed down.
18 MR. MARSH: Right.
19 MR. GUNTER: And how did that dusting 20 affect additional system structure and components?
21 And I dont think that that has been answered yet.
22 And I dont -- Im, frankly, not confident in a 23 walkdown that would be conducted by FirstEnergy, 24 because I think theyve lost credibility.
25
16 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And its up to the NRC as well to restore 1
its credibility in this process, and you have the 2
challenge and the opportunity of all these 3
environmental groups to provide the door for that 4
credibility to be restored.
5 So I think you have a very important 6
decision to make here --
7 MR. MARSH: Right.
8 MR. GUNTER: -- and an opportunity. Its 9
a good Petition, and there -- Im sure you will 10 recognize all, if not the majority, of the independent 11 reviewers that we have put forward as candidates. And 12 these are people that do have the confidence of the 13 public community because theyve been recognized in 14 prior works.
15 So thank you.
16 MR. MARSH: Thank you, Paul. Appreciate 17 that.
18 Could you transcribe that or make --
19 summarize that?
20 MR. MACON: Ill summarize, paraphrase, 21 the comments about the reactor head change-out and 22 whether that would change the Petitioners concern 23 about the root causes leading up to the reactor head 24 corrosion.
25
17 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. GUNTER: And beyond -- other system 1
structures and components in particular.
2 MR. MACON: And the boric acid dusting and 3
how that affects components in containment.
4 MR. GUNTER: And an opportunity to regain 5
credibility.
6 MR. MACON: And an opportunity to regain 7
credibility.
8 MR. MARSH: Okay. What Id like us to do 9
-- would you mind relaying what you relayed to us to 10 the Petitioners?
11 MR. MACON: I will.
12 MR. MARSH: Just so they know that we had 13 this conversation kind of off the record. Well do 14 the same thing to the attorneys and also to our 15 Regional representatives, so they know that this took 16 place kind of offline and --
17 MR. GUNTER: I apologize for --
18 MR. GROBE: Tad, Im still here. I heard 19 what Paul had to say.
20 MR. MARSH: Okay. Thank you. Great.
21 Okay. Paul, thank you very much.
22 Appreciate your comments.
23 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the 24 foregoing matter went off the record.)
25