ML19305A519
| ML19305A519 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 05/03/1979 |
| From: | Hipple J, Rider G METROPOLITAN EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7908300039 | |
| Download: ML19305A519 (43) | |
Text
f i"
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
- ~
l NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION In the Matter of:
l 2'
IE TMI INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW 31 of Joseph Hipple and Gordon Rider I
+
5l Si 7,
8l Trailer #203 91 NRC Investigation Site I
TMI Nuclear Power Plant 10l Middletown, Pennsylvania 11}
May 3, 1979 12.
(Date of Interview) 13 June 21, 1979 (0 ate Transcript Typec) 14) 112 ISi (Tape Numcer(s))
)
7forr306631 17; 18i I
19[-
i l
201 21 NRC PERSONNEL:
22.!
John Sinclair l
Gregory Yuhas 23 24l i
25l l
l 855 323 L
I
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o
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SINCLAIR:
The following interview is being conducted with two individuals 1
simultaneously.
The first individual will be Mr. Joseph E. Hipple, 2
Jr.
The second individual is Mr. E. Gordon Rider.
Mr. Hipple is a 3
4f Seni r Radiation Chemistry Technician and Mr. Gordon. is a Junior Radiation Chemistry Technician.
The present time is 11:37 p.m.,
5 May 3, 1979.
The interview is being conducted at the Three Mile Si Island nuclear facility, and the place of the interview is Trailor 203 7
1 cated immediately outside the south gate to the TMI site.
The 8
individual present for the interview will be Mr. Gregory P. Yuhas.
g The machine operator, that's myself, Mr. John R. Sinclair.
I'm an investigator with the Office of Inspector and Auditor, U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Prior to this interview being recorded, Mr. Hipple and Mr. Rider were provided copies of a document explaining their rights concerning information to be obtained regarding the incident at the Three Mile Island site.
In addition, Mr. Hipple and Mr. Rider 15!
were apprised of the purpose of the investigation, it's scope and the authority by which Congress authorizes the Nuclear Regulatory Commission i
17l to conduct an investigation.
On the second page of the document 18!
Mr. Rider and Mr. Hipple have answered three questions.
The questions 19l on the third page will now be recorded as part of the interview.
20l Mr. Hipple, do you understand the above?
21 22 HIPPLE:
Yes.
23 24 25) t e
f.855 324 i
I 2
SINCLAIR:
Do we have your permission to tape the interview?
1.
2' HIPPLE:
Yes, you do.
3 4'
5l SINCLAIR:
Do you want a copy of the tape?
6 HIPPLE:
Yes.
7 8
SINCLAIR:
Mr. Rider, do yoc understand the above?
gl I
101 I
RIDER:
Yes.
1 11 121 SINCLAIR:
Do we have your permission to tape the interview?
14i RIDER:
Yes.
15j l
16l
<TNCLAIR:
Do you want a copy of the tape?
,7 1
18f l
RIDER:
Yes.
191 20 SINCLAIR:
Fine.
At this time I will turn the questioning over to 21.
Mr. Yuhas.
22 23 YUHAS:
I would like to start off with by asking you a little bit 24 about your background, education, when you came to TMI, and your job 25i t
l progression.
Mr. Rider, why don't you start off?
I 855 325
-i
.i
l 3
1l RIDER:
I came to the company in 1969 at Crawford Generating Station 2l and oroceeded through advancement to Clerk Senior.
When they closed 3
the station I bumped into a Radiation Chemistry Junior Technician job 4
at Three Mile Island two years ago.
5l l
6' YUHAS:
Mr. Rider, are you a high' school graduate?
7 RIDER:
Yes sir, I am.
8 0
YUHAS:
Okay, did you take the college preparatory course or was it at 10l i
trade school?
12{
RIDER:
That was college preparatory course.
i 141 YUHAS Okay.
Can you briefly describe the training that has been 15:1 provided you or that you have procured on your own in the area of 16;1 i
chemistry or health physics?
17l i
18{
RIDER:
I was trained for approximately 6-8 weeks by a gentleman from 19!
Rad Services named Ralph Jacobs. And I also had a chemistry school in Ohio for two weeks and the rest has all be on-the-job training.
21 22 YUHAS:
Did Mr. Jacobs provide this training as a formal contractual 23 type of engagement with Metropolitan Edison Company?
24 25 I
.4 i
i
I l
4 1.
RIDER:
Yes, he did.
2 YUHAS:
Okay, were there other individuals that participated in this 3
4j training? Six weeks?
l 5
RIDER:
Yes sir, there was one other person.
6l 7
YUHAS: Who was that?
g 9j RIDER:
Richard Banner.
lh YUHAS:
Can you explain the word ' bumped' for the benefit of the tape?
13 RIDER:
It's, when the company lays off people, through my seniority I was able to displace a person with a lower seniority.
151
- 16!
YUHAS:
Thank you.
Mr. Hipple would you give us a synopsis of your 17!
I education and experience?
18l l
191 HIPPLE: Well, I started at the company in 1971 at Crawford Station.
20 I worked in the line department for approximately three months.
Went 21 to the operations at Crawford Station for approximately another six 22 months.
Then I bid into the... the job was separate at the time. We 23 only had chemistry and HP.
They were separate jobs.
I bit into the 24 chemistry job as a Junior Technician.
I came down, they'put me through.
25l l
855 327 i
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-1 J
F 5
1!
schooling for approximately three ir four months -- chemistry, math, 2
From that position I moved up to an Analyst Senior and then so on.
they, at that time.... let's see, they decided to combine both HP and 3
4l chemistry departments and I became a Senior, was on probation and then became a Senior Technician, HP and Chemistry.
During the first period 5
f time down here I had chemistry training but we were very, we had, 6l[
so to speak, no HP training for the first two years.
Year and a half, roughly.
We asked for it., we were going to get sent down to a place in Alabama but the school shut down before we got there.
From then, g
let's see, we went through a regular HP course.
We had tapes, schooling.
i That lasted approximately for, I guess, about eight weeks but I got 11{
l taken cut of part of it because they needed my experience in chemistry 12t i
at the time.
I went through B&W radiochemistry courses and the rest 13l of the HP training was more or less on the job.
15i YUHAS:
Fine.
You also are a high school graduate, I see.
161 17ll HIPPLE:
Yes.
18(
19l l
YUHAS:
Okay, fine. What I'd like to do now is have you fellows go 20 through a brief chronology of your involvement in the incident that 21.
i occurred on March 28.
Let me first begin by asking you, did you two 22 work together that night?
23 1
24i i
25!
~
855 328
6 No.
[I ASSUME BOTH INDICATED "N0", ONLY ONE VOICE ON TAPE]
y j
o 2-YUHAS:
Okay.
If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Rider, you came in later in 3
the day, right?
4 5
RIDER:
No.
Joe and myself both came in at the same time, but with 6l the confusion and what not that was going on that evening, he ended up 7
going one way and myself another.
i 9
YUHAS:
Okay.
Mr. Rider, why don't you start off with describing how l
you learned of the event and pick up a general synopsis of your actions 11; l
at the time that you learned of the event through the 30th.
12l 13 RIDER:
Okay, I heard it on the television at first that they had a i
141 pump problem at Three Mile Island and I thought it a little bit unusual 15i because usually any problems we had here were never heard on the 16i television, but I wasn't too seriously concerned until later on in the 17 afternoon anothsr of my fellow shift workers, Mr. Evans, gave me a 18j telephone call and said that Mr. Hipple had called him and said that 19!
the situation was bad, t
20j l
21 YUHAS:
Okay. What time did you get in to work?
22 23 RIDER:
I came in to work at 3:00, my scheduled shift.
YUHAS: [Yuhas]
j 24 Where did you report to when you came in?
25 l
DSS N 11 a
I RIDER:
I reported at first to the north gate but they directed me to 7,
the observation center.
2:
3 YUHAS:
Okay, just pick it up and carry it through, as best you can 4r I
remember.
I 6l 1
RIDER:
Okay.
As to the best of my memory, I was met by one of my 7
foremen, I can't remember who, and he told me that I would be raf acing f
81 9l one of the offsite team, myself and Mr. Evans.
And I took my car and l
through -- we had a radio, we were given a radio -- and through listening 10l l
to that we finally located the team we were to relieve.
And we worked lli the offsite team for approximately three hours, to the best of my memory, and then we were called in on the site to change a charcoal filter and get a water sample from the auxiliary building floor.
And Mr. Evans took the sample, took the charcoal filter on the third floor 15l of the auxiliary building and myself, I went down to the 280 foot 16i elevation and got the water sample.
After which we come back and ate 17 l
and went home.
181 19j YUHAS:
Okay.
I'd like to go back.
Do you remember what team that 20l l
you relieved? What offsite survey team?
21l f
22 RIDER:
I don't remember the team initial, but it was Mr. Dukes and 23-Mr. Eginreider.
24 i
25j f
355 3
8 YUHAS:
That would have been Team Bravo, then.
Do you remember that?
ll 2
Does that refresh your memory any?
3l 4l RIDER:
Oh, yes. More than likely.
5 YUHAS:
Alright, fine.
Who asked you to go out and relieve this team?
61 7
RIDER:
It was one of my HP foremen.
g 9
YUHAS:
You cannot recollect whom?
0 11l 12}
RIDER:
No.
YUHAS: [Yuhas] Okay.
Can you describe what actions that i
l you and Mr. Evans took on this offsite survey team?
13l 14l t
RIDER:
Yes.
We took approximately three air samples and gave dose 15!
rates throughout the evening. We took one swing up through Middletown.
16i We took air samples right outside the north gate at, I think, a place called a meat packing plant, I believe it was.
Right up the road from l
there.
And one at in Royal.
19l 20 YUHAS:
Did you find any direct radiation?
21, 22 RIDER:
Yes we did, did find some.
At the north gate sampling point 23 and at the meat packing plant.
24 25 9,55
9 YUHAS:
Did you relay this information, the dose rates, by radio to...
1.
l 2!
RIDER:
Yes sir, we did.
3 i
4l YUHAS:
Okay.
How did you count your earth samples?
S 61 RIDER: 'la counted them with a Sam II.
7 8
YUHAS:
Have you ever used a Sam II before?
g 10 RIDER:
Once or twice.
In training.
It was a refresher course.
l ul YUHAS:
Did you experience any difficulty in counting the air samples with the Sam II?
14{
15i RIDER:
Yeah, we had to certainly proceed out of the area to a lower 16i background.
18l YUHAS: Why did you have to do that?
191 20j RIDER:
Because the background was too high where we 'took the sample.
21 I
22' YUHAS:
Do you remember what the dose rate was where you took the 23 sample?
24 t
25l
' kSS }31 I
{
10 ilj RIDER:
I think at the meat packing plant one time it was 20 mR.
I'm i
2j not entirely positive of that.
31, YUHAS:
4l Who told you that you were to go to the plant and collect the Sj water sample in the auxiliary building to change the charcoal cartridge?
I Gi 7l RIDER:
ECS.
i 8l gj You received that information via radio, then?
YUHAS:
101 u,l RIDER:
Yes.
12!
YUHAS:
Can you describe, when you went to the north gate to go into the plant, were you in your own car or were you in the company car?
15 RIDER:
Yes sir, at the time I was, yes.
16i 171 l
YUHAS:
What did the guards do when you came to the north gate?
18{
l 19!
RIDER:
They directed me to the observation center.
20 21 YUHAS:
Okay.
Did they search your car or anything like that?
22 23
[
RIDER:
No sir.
241 i
%55 e
I
j 11 YUHAS:
And they recognized you?
y 2!
RIDER:
Yes.
3 4j YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you sign in on a log sheet?
5 l
61 1
RIDER:
Nowhere.
No.
7l 8
YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you have your pocket dosimeters and your TLD's with you?
10i 11' RIDER:
No.
12 13 YUHAS:
Okay.
You proceeded to the observa-- or, to the process...
15i RIDER:
I proceeded to the observation center.
I was issued a temporary 16j i
TLD and later on when I got into the plant, I got into the HP lab where my TLD and pocket dosimeter were kept.
And I noted at the time 18(
on my pocket dosimeter that in the HP lab at that time, which was 19l i
approximately 11:00 in the evening, I had picked up 2 mR on the pocket 20 dosimeter and I checked it with one or two of the other ones that were 21 laying in there that I'm sure had been zero because they were only 22 reading 2.
23 24 i
25!
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12 YUHAS:
Okay. When you got to the process center as you came in that 1.
night, what were the conditions in the process center?
2 3
RIDER:
I don't think there was anybody in the process center when I 4
g t there.
5 Gl YUHAS: Were the Metal detectors in operation, that sort of stuff?
7 8
RIDER: No sir, nothing was in operation.
10' I
i YUHAS: When you came to the service building, was the guard in the ll!
cubicle there?
121 13 i
RIDER:
No sir.
14l 15j YUHAS:
Were the doors, the automatic car doors, were they all open?
16l 17 l
RIDER:
Yes.
18!
19l YUHAS:
Okay.
You then proceeded up to the emergency control station, 20 Unit I?
21l 4
RIDER:
Yes sir.
23 24 g55 t
i 13 YUHAS:
Okay.
And who was in the Unit I control room at that time?
lj 2
RIDER:
Mr. Tom Mulleavy and I believe Beverly Good.
And, I'm not 3
4 entirely sure.
5!
YUHAS:
Okay. Who directed you to take the sample?
6 7
RIDER:
I think, as best as I can remember, the word was given to g
Mr. Evans and he told me.
Someone told him.
g 10l YUHAS:
About how much time did you take to prepare for these samples from the time that you were told in the Unit 1 ECS to the time that you were actually getting dressed to go do it?
14 RIDER:
How much time did it take us to... actually I don't know.
15i 16l i
YUHAS: Was it a period of hours?
17l l
18{
RIDER:
It was at least an hour.
Because we had difficulty in locating 191 Scott air packs.
I remembered one of my jobs is... I seemed to have lucked out once a month to go around and check the Scott air packs.
21, And I remembered a place that mors in likely no one else would have 22 looked and luckily I found two there.
But we had trouble getting all 23 the gear together that we needed, rain suits, etc.
24 l
25
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14 YUHAS:
Did you have a chance to review the other survey data of the 1.
2; auxiliary building?
I 3:
RIDER:
To the best of my knowledge there was no other survey. data.
41 5'
We were ne f the first ones in.
6-I YUHAS:
Did you, in your search for equipment, go to the Unit 2 control 7
room?
g t
9 RIDER:
I don't think so.
11!
l YUHAS:
Alright, can you describe how you were dressed phen ycu went 12!
in?
13 141 RIDER:
Yes.
I had on... I took off my streets clothes except for my 15i underwear.
I had on a pair of cloth coveralls, wet suit, two pair of 16i i
boots, two pair of rubber boots and a Scott air monitor.
17l i
18i YUHAS:
What type of dosimeter did you wear?
191 1
20l RIDER:
A TLD and a low and a high range dosimeter.
21 22 YUHAS:
Do you know the ranges of those dosimeters?
23 24 25; 0
l
.qh l
I
l.
l 15 i
1.
RIDER:
The low range was 0-200 mR and the higher range was 0-1 R I I
2!
believe.
3l YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you have a hood on?
4 I
Si i
Gj RIDER:
No sir.
7 YUHAS:
Okay. What instruments did you take with you?
g 9'
Mr.
vans took a teletector and myself, I took an E520 but I 10 picked up a teletector in the building that was left there by a team j
that was in putting plastic on the auxiliary building floor and it was left laying there.
14!
YUHAS: What type of sample container did you take with you to collect 15j this?
16i 17 i,
RIDER:
I took a one liter poly bottle.
IS(
191 YUHAS:
Okay.
20[
21{
RIDER:
With instructions to go down to the floor, find the first 22 place I could that wasn't covered by plastic and get what I could off 23 the floor, not try to fill it.
24 25l I
l I
16 i
YUHAS:
y And you and Mr. Evans entered the 305 elevation of the auxiliary building?
2 l
31 RIDER:
Yes we did.
si Sl YUHAS:
Okay. Was there a control point watch stationed there or...
i i
7l l
RIDER:
No sir, it was reading 2 R at the control point at that time.
8l, 9
YUHAS:
How about in the hallway outside the auxiliary building entrance?
Was there someone restricting access?
n!
12!
RIDER:
No sir.
13 141 YUHAS:
Okay.
15i l
16i i
RIDER:
There was a step off Pad.
17l 18f i
YUHAS:
Okay.
And the dose rate at the double doors leading into the 19!
auxiliary building from the control point were 2 R/hr, is that what 20' you said?
21 22ll RIDER:
No, at the control point where the hand and foot monitors is 23 located was reading 2 R.
24l 25i I
h l
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17 YUHAS:
That must have had a significant impact on you.
y 2
RIDER:
It certainly did.
3 4
YUHAS:
Can you describe your trip through'the building?
5 6L RIDER:
Yes.
Mr. Evans and I, we went in together but we split up as 7
soon as we got inside.
I went straight down through the hallway on the 305 elevation heading toward the radwaste panel.
And went down g
the stairs at the end where the staircase by the radwaste panel and at the bottom of the steps there was a teletector laying.
I proceeded through the door and all the water that was on the floor was covered by plastic.
And then I tried to get a sample there but it was unsuccessful, i
so I took a left into the w ;;. where the decay heat close cooling is 141 l
and there was plenty of water on the floor there that was not covered-151 by plastic.
And I'd say, approximately four inches, and I walked into it, reached in and ran the bottle through and got approximately 100 17l milliliters of water and turned around, grabbed the teletector and 18[
returned.
191 20 YUHAS:
Okay.
As you went through the double doors in the auxiliary 21 building, your E520, did you still have that with you?
22 23 RIDER:
Yes.
24l i
I
I i
I i
l
{
18 I
gj YUHAS: What condition was it in?
I 2
RIDER:
I lost it at HPR 227.
3l YUHAS:
Meaning that it pegged?
5 61 RIDER:
Yes, it pegged.
7 8l YUHAS:
Okay.
And then you, that would have been on 305 elevation 9l i
before you went downstairs.
10l l
11:
l RIDER:
Yes.
12!
13 i
YUHAS:
Okay.
Then you continued to go downstairs without a meter 141 l
essentially.
15i 16i RIDER:
Yes.
17, i
18!
YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you leave that upstairs?
191 201 i
RIDER:
No, I carried it with me.
21f I
22 YUHAS:
Okay.
Did it ever come bac2 on scale?
23 24l 25l
', ;c i
i l
l 19 I
RIDER:
y When I got back out to the control point it went back to 2 R.
2 YUHAS:
Okay, but not when you went down into the 281 elevation?
3 4'
RIDER:
No.
Well, I wasn't looking.
I was moving pretty fast.
5 I
6 YUHAS: When you grabbed the teletector, what did it read?
7 8
t RIDER:
I checked it to see if it was, I put it on the battery.
I g
just wanted to see if it was working, worthwhile to bring back in.
But I didn't take a reading.
I was 'nxious to get out.
6 a
11!
I 121 YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you have any idea what the dose rate was in this I
water that you were collecting?
141 1
15!
RIDER:
Yes sir, I did.
I can't remember what it was he told me but 16!
l there was, one of the gentlemen that put the plastic on the floor told 17 me, you know, what the area was reading down there.
But I can't 18l remember what it was.
191 l
20 YUHAS:
Okay.
Were you wearing extremity monitoring?
21 22 RIDER:
Ne vii r.
23 24 25
-h D
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.I
20 YUHAS:
Okay.
So you collected the water sample then you proceeded 1.
i back up to the 305.
Did you run into Mr. Evans on his way down from 2
the 328?
3 4
RIDER:
No sir. Mr. Evans -- I came back out before Mr. Evans.
5 6
YUHAS:
About how long--
7 8
RIDER:
But only by a minute or two.
g 10 YUHAS:
Okay.
About how long did it take you to make this traverse?
6 12!
RIDER:
Five minutes.
13 14I i
YUHAS:
Okay.
Where did you take the Scott air pack off?
15i 16i l
RIDER:
Near the site of the step cff pad, at the double doors.
17l 18l YUHAS:
Okay, and can you describe your actions then? What did you do 19i with your sample?
20i 21l RIDER:
I took off everything... I took off the wet suit.
I left my
-22 coveralls on.
I took off both pair of rubber boots and I proceeded 23 i
out to the hallway-outside the auxiliary building there.
And I took a i
24 l
dosa rate on the water.
It was reading 40 mR and I then dressed.
.25 g55
{
21 1;
YUHAS:
Did you have any idea of the type of exposure you might incur 2
in taking that sample before you went in?
3 4
RIDER:
To some degree.
I thought I would receive somewhere around 5'
500 mR.
6 7
YUHAS:
500 mR? What did you base that on?
8 RIDER:
Approximate amount of time it would take, coupled with what 9:
10 that gentlemen had told me.
But there again I can't remember what he told me.
Just a moment and I'll ask him.
ll}i 12!
YUHAS:
Okay, so then you and Mr. Evans took the two samples that 13 you'd collected up to the turbine deck on Unit I?
y i
15j i
RIDER:
No. We brought the water sample and the charcoal filter and I 16!
i stayed with the sample while Mr. Evans went up to the ECS to receive instructions what to do with the sample.
And they were taken to the 18(
observation center.
19!
i 20 YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you survey yourself for loose surface contamination 21.
after the samples were taken care of?
23 RIDER:
Yes.
24 25i i
l
I 3
22 YUHAS: What did you find?
1 I
2.
RIDER:
I fcyad my hair was hot.
3 4
YUHAS:
How hot?
5, 6l RIDEP.:
It pegged around 14 on the 100 scale.
7 8
YUHAS:
Did you switch to another meter?
g i
10 RIDER:
No.
12' I
YUHAS: What action did you take?
13) 14!
l RIDER:
I washed my hair.
15i 16i YUHAS:
Was that successful?
17 18{
RIDER:
Yes it was.
' 191 1
I l
20 1
YUHAS:
Okay.
So what did you do for the remainder of the evening?
21l Excuse, me what was your pocket dosimeter indicating?
22 l
23 RIDER:
I think a little over 700.
I think 720.
24 25' b
l
.,. \\b i
23 1
YUHAS:
Okay, then what did you do the rest of the evening?
I 2
RIDER: We took the samples to the observation center and scrounged up 3
a sandwich and went home.
4 l
Sl YUHAS:
Okay.
When did you return to TMI?
6 7.
RIDER:
At 8:00 that morning.
8 9f YUHAS:
The following morning?
1g 11l i
RIDER:
Yes.
12l 13 YUHAS:
And what assignments did you then take?
14!
i 15i l
RIDER:
I was... assigned to... the team that monitored the GE 16i 17!
locations on that perimeter.
18l YUHAS:
How long did that assignment last?
191 20 l
RIDER:
Twelve hours.
l 21 22 l
_ 23 YUHAS:
Twelve hours.
And what specifically were you taking, just L
dose rates or air samples, or what?
24-h 2':
.gb l
l i
O 24 RIDER: We took dose rates and two air samples.
1 2
YUHAS:
Did you count those air samples or were they given to someone 3
4 else for counting?
5 RIDER:
6 They were given to someone else for counting but I can't recall who.
They were left at the north gate.
7 8
YUHAS:
Can you briefly describe your findings on that 12-hour shift?
g 10 RIDER:
Most of the perimeter readings were low.
I think I'm getting the second and third nights mixed up.
I believe this was the third night.
l 14j YUHAS:
Did you have a day off in between?
16;'
RIDER:
No.
But I can't remember what I did. Well, I'll tell you.
I came in at 8:00 that day and I went home in the afternoon.
It was the 18l third day that I had... because it was at night that I came back in 191 again.
I had the day off and.came back in at night.
And that was 20 when we were on the perimeter routes.
21 t
22 YUHAS:
So that must have been Friday then, the 30th.
23 24 l
I@,
l
l 25 1
RIDER:
That was Friday, right.
There was a release that was scheduled, 2
I think, for 3:00 that evening.
It was something they were doing 3
within the plant, I can't recall what.
But we were pretty well alerted 4
that at 3:00 they were going to do something or planned to that would Sj make the radiation levels go up.
At the perimeters and it would 6
delayed the slight time but they did go up.
Yes they went to, the highest, I think, of 40 mR.
7 8
YUHAS:
This would have been, then, 3:00 a.m. the 31st, Saturday g
- #" "9 10 11!
RIDER:
Yes, uh-huh.
13 YUHAS:
Okay, alright.
And that was the highest reading that you saw i
14!
l on the course of that tour?
15!
16f i
RIDER:
Yes, that night, yes.
17' I
ISI YUHAS:
Okay, fine.
Alright, thank you very much.
Mr. Hipple, could 191 I
you give us a run down df what you were doing?
20 21f HIPPLE:
Uh, yes.
I got up that morning and was driving down the 22 highway and it's approximately around 9:30, and I heard a announcement 23 on the radio.
It said 'Three Mile Island has a general emergency'.
24 And at first thought, I thought it was a prank.
I said 'Nah, that th i
o
26 1l could'nt be'.
So I heard it again.
So I pulled off the expressway, pulled into a' gas station.
I called in to the HP lab, no answer.
I 2;
3l called in to the chemistry lab that was in Unit 1, no answer.
I did 4l the same thing in Unit 2, no answer.
Then I started thinking something 5
was wrong.
So I called the control room and the operator said 'Well, who is this?'
I said, 'It's Joe Hipple, I work in HP department'.
I 6
7 said 'May I speak to shift supervisor?', and they said 'Just a moment'.
81 They didn't want to put the call through at first.
So I did get ahold i
gj of the shift supervisor, who was Ken Bryant, and I said 'What the i
10l hell's g ing n d wn there?'
And he said 'We have a primary to secondary leak'.
I said, 'Well, what do you want me to do? You want me to come I
now or what?'
He said, 'Well, at this time things are, you know, a little confused'.
So I went by our other shift partner, Mike Gavner.
g Stopped by his house, told him what was going on.
We called up Ron Evans, Ron called Gordy up.
I decided I'm going to go down to work, 151 you know, see what was going on.
Well by that time they were evacuating the island.
I asked the chemistry foreman, I said 'Do you need any 17!
help, do you want me to stay there?'
He said 'I don't know'.
18f 19l l
YUHAS:
Who was this?
20 21.
HIPPLE:
Ed Houser.
He was the north gate monitor.
So I hung around 22 for awhile.
I thought 'Well, I was due in at 3:00'.
So I went back 23 home and came back out that afternoon and tried to get into the north 24 gate, which I knew I couldn't, so I went to the observation center.
25!
.s.
l-I
l 1
I 27 1.
They sent myself and Mike Gavner on the onsite team, that was Team 2
Alpha, and we were on that team, I guess, roughly four, about four hours I'd say roughly.
During that time they told us to stand by the 3l radio.
They told us to proceed... I don't remember, I.think it was 4
ut the railroad tracks.
It was at the boundary and we got a reading, 51 at first I got it it was reading 10 mR.
I thought... I called the 6;
reading in I said 'It's 10 mR'.
And Gavner said 'No it aint, it's 7
8l 40'.
So I said ' Campsite reading was 40 mR'.
It came back and went i
up to 60 mR finally and at that time I thought maybe our instrument g
was wrong.
n; l
SINCLAIR:
I'm going to have to break i., here.
We have to break to 124 change this tape.
The time is 12:08 p.m. -- uh, a.m.
14!
15l; SINCLAIR:
This is Sinclair again. We're continuing the tape with Mr. Hipple speaking.
17 HIPPLE:
As Mike Gavner and I called the readings in for the third 181 i
time, I said 'Why don't we go back to the observation center and get 19!
another dose rate instrument', I said, 'because something don't seem 20 right here'.
21,[
So I called in, told them we're going over to the observation center and pick up another instrument.
And we got out the north gate, 22 it was reading roughly 3-4 mR.
We're going up the highway and I, Mike 23 was driving and I was sticking them out the window just for the hang 24 of it.
And I says 'What the hell, it's going 10, 20, 30...'
We had i
l p
i i
1 i
i
f 28 i
1.;
50 mR reading out on 441.
So we got up to the observation center and 2
I saw Carl Plumley and I asked him if, you know, we could borrow one 1
f his instruments to verify our's.
So he came along with us.
As we 3,
came back down 441 again, the 50 mR field left which, you know, he 4
5l explains is a kind of wind currents flow and it was blowing the activity
.up and down.
So we went back into one of the spots where we read 40 6
mR and it was reading maybe 15 mR at that time.
Carl Plumley verified 7
ur instrument, it was reading correctly, and we proceeded and took 8
g.
him back to the observation center.
We then went and stood by at the south end of the island.
They told us to go get another reading.
We
~
went and got that.
I don't really remember what that was. We sat and waited for, I don't know, 45 minutes til I said to Mike 'Let's take a 12!
ride along the perimeter of the fence'.
We were going up along the BWST, the levels were really going up.
Then we got to the north end 14i of the warehouse, it was reading up 250 mR at the fence.
And I called 15i the readings in because they were concerned about that.
And the rest 16!
of the night we might have took a few more readings and then we were 17l I
relieved.
I was sent to Unit 1 control room.
When I first walked in 18{
there, it looked like a ghost town.
Nobody was in there, we just put 19i a respirator on, walked right on through, went up to the control room, 20(
i we went and got a couple of air samples in the control rdom, counted 21 them.
Then I was told by Tom Mulleavy to report over to Unit 2 control 22 room, that electricians had to go in and open some breakers for, what 23 pumps they were, I'm not sure.
But it was something to do with the 24 basement was flooding.
So we went over there and it was myself and l
.6
f 29 I
i yj Moose Massarati and Ed Crawfoot, he was the foreman.
He wanted to go 2
with and I kept waiting.
I could only find two Scott air packs, the i
same way he said.
You had to run all over to find your equipment.
3 4!
After I got everything straightened out, I did find the third Scott air pack.
I got tired of waiting, I said ' Moose, let's go in and get 5
the job done'.
We went down, we suited up, we put cotton coveralls Ql on, wet suit, two pairs of rubber boots.
I had cotton and two pairs 7
of surgical gloves on, taped, and I had rubber gloves not taped to one g.
hand so I could check my watch.
Got the Scott air pack on, Myse and g
I proceeded in.
I got to the auxiliary building door beforn'jou went in, it was reading 5-7 R.
I told Moose, I said 'Come on back.here'.
1J.
We went back there, I said 'Look', I said 'From the ti' we go in that 12{
door if you have any trouble you tap me on the shcuider or I'll tap you on your shoulder, we're going to be going running up the steps and i
you do what you got to do and we'll get out'.
We went in there, at 15j the bottom of the steps it was reading about 10 R.
We got up to the 16i 328 elevation where the buses were.
The general area was reading, at 171 f
t!. :op of the steps, about 20 R.
We proceeded down, it hit some 181 areas up to 50 R, one area up to 100 R.
We went to the breakers.
I i
started my watch when we got up there.
I figured general area of 20 20i i
R.
And Moose wasn't quite done with the switching order.
I said 21
'[ TWEET! ] Let's get out'.
We didn't wear hoods also and things were kind of shaky and that was a bad thing to do, but anyhow we came out, 23 unsuited, I checked ourselves.
After I thought of it I said 'We're j
going to be crapped up, Moose.
Let's go over to Unit l'.
Unit 1 was 25 l
i
l 30 1
a complete mess.
So I got the RM 14, had it on the times a 100 scale.
2 I didn't get three feet from my head and it alarmed.
So I got an 3
E520, put it on times one and pegged it, put it on times 10 and my 4
head was reading 35 mR.
And I told Moose, I said 'Well, what I'll do, S
we'll g back, I'll clean all this mess up in the shower.
We got to 6i shower, we got to get ourselvec clean'.
The only alternative I had thought of was shaving our hair off.
So we went back and showered 7
quite a few times.
Moose was iampletely decon when we left.
My head 8
was, I had one hot spot in my head yet.
It was reading maybe 1500 g
counts, 1500 dpm roughly.
I'm just guessing.
One thing I do want to point out:
when we were down there I called the control room, I r
called and told them we were not done with the job, we didn't have 12l time to finisa it.
They said 'Well, go back in and finish it'.
I said 'No.'
I said, 'I picked up 1.8 R on my high range dosimeter, I
we're not going back in until I read our TLD's. '
At this point they 15i called Moose up a. ' said ' Are you going to go back in?'
And I told 16;;
I him, ' Definitely no,.>u are not going back in'.
They wanted to send 171 him in.
It wasn't'right.
That was a very bad thing.
They just 18t wanted the job done..They only had three quarters of it done.
At 191 that time Moose and I went over to the TLD trailer, I read our TLD's.
20 He picked up approximately, I think it was 1.56 R.
I picked up 1.82 21 I
or somewhere in that vicinit.
By the time I was all done, I went up
/
22 to the control room and it ns about time to go home.
They said -- I 23 was over, I had 2.6 Rem fc.* the quarter -- so I was, they told me 'You 24 go home.
You can come back c.s row.'
So what I did, I came back.the 25j p
1 L.
O 31 1
next day, went to the observation center and I reported to the control 2
room.
I didn't... no, wait a minute... I can't remember if they 31 didn't leave me in that day or not...
That's right.
No, I wasn't 4
allowed past the security console.
So I stayed, I think I read TLf's 5
that day.
Over at the observation center.
That was a fiasco, they 6l had quite a bit of trouble.
For the next two days until the ouarter 7
ran out, I was limited to where I could go.
I did go into the turbine
~
8 building an'd sampled RMA 5 in Unit 1 which is condenser vacuum sample.
Small jobs like that but not in any controlled areas.
That's abcut g
10 ut i
YUHAS:
Okay. When you got the 200 millirem /hr near the north side of 12l the warehouse, what instrument were you using?
ldi 1
I 4
HIPPLE:
PIC-6.
15i 16l l
YUHAS: Were you recording these numbers yourselves or were you just phoning them in?
1 I
HIPPLE:
No, we wrote the area where we were, the time of the sample 20l and the reading.
We wrote on tablet paper and also called them in.
21 22l
'YUHAS:
What became of these tablets?
23 24 251 i
i l
i
's
32 1{
HIPPLE:
At the best of my knowledge, I don't really know.
We--
2.
YUHAS:
3l Were they turned over from team to team?
l 4l HIPPLE:
Yes.
We had one from the previous team but nobody really 5
told us to record 'em.
We were just doing it on our own.
6 7
YUHAS:
Can you describe to me a little about who told this fellow to 8
go in and ma.te this breaker lineup? What breakers? What was it, the g
fans or...
11 HIPPLE:
No, it was something to do with starting pumps of some type.
j I don't really recall.
All as I remember the busses were maybe half I
as long as this trailer.
And he might have had to close, I don't 14j know, 30, 40 different breakers.
I'm just estimating that.
And he 15!
had to look for them.
16i 17!
YUHAS: Could you spell Moose's last name?... Mr. Rider, you want to...
19 RIDER:
I think can.
I think it's M-a-z-o-r-i-s-k-i.
2q I
)
21l i
YUHAS:
And it's pronounced?
22 23 RIDER:
Mazarowski.
24 25-t Q3 l
9fl3 1
i,
]
33 1!
YUHAS:
Mazarowski.
Okay.
And he is a maintenance electrician?
2 HIPPLE:
Yes.
3 4l YUHAS:
Did you have an RWP for this job?
5, 6l HIPPLE:
No.
7 8
YUHAS:
Did you review current survey data prior to Joing in?
g 10' HIPPLE:
No, we didn't.
12 YUHAS: Was current survey data available?
14i i
HIPPLE:
The only information that I got was passed on from previous 15j techs of what kind of area.
But it varied.
Some people had up at 16i that area over 100 R.
Some people had less than 20 R.
It was, it fluctuated throughout the day.
19l YUHAS:
Okay.
Did you think that the performance of this task might result in a fairly significant large exposure?
21l 22 HIPPLE:
Yes, I knew it was soon as I got to the door.
I knew it was 23 well, I asked Tom Mulleavy, I said 'How much exposure we allowed to 24; pick up?' And he said
'1.'
-- no, or was it Dick Dubiel? One of the 25 1
I i
34 i
1.,
other.
They said 'No more than 1.5 R'.
And I did it the best I could by timing it but running through different areas like that we didn't 2,
3 have time to look at our dosimetry because we were running the whole
. time.
4 5
YUHAS: What survey instrument did you take with you?
6 7
HIPPLE:
Teletector.
g 9'
YUHAS:
Okay.
And the readings around these breaker panels, were they all in the 50 R range?
11' l
12' HIPPLE:
Right around the breaker panels they varied anywhere from, I would say, 20-40 R.
Roughly.
There was an open area at the one end where it was reading close to 100 R there.
I just waved the teletector 151 and got out.
16' 17 YUHAS:
When you came out, did you log any of the numbers that your 18{
l survey readings, you had taken?
19 i
201 HIPPLE:
No, but I did mention the levels that I got to somebody in 21, the control room.
I don't remember who it was.
22 23 YUHAS:
Did you log any of the contamination levels on your body or 24
\\
Mr. Mazoriski's, whateven ?
25
~
i
&)
i
'f
A
{
35 HIPPLE:
No, we didn't.
I felt that as long as - everything was such lj 2
a mess, the paperwork was contaminated and everything was a fiasco in 3
there, I thought as long we got ourselves clean that was going to be sufficient at that time.
Normally yes, we'd fill out paperwork.
But 4
I thought that was an abnormal situation.
5 6
YUHAS:
Did either of you gentlemen provide urinalysis or were you 7
whole body Counted Within a few days of this incident?
g 9
RIDER:
Yes, I did.
I was whole body counted, it was probably a week or two later..This is Mr. Rider, by the way.
And I also provided a urine sample for a gentleman that was in here for General Dynamics who did this to anyone who would volunteer.
He was trying to get people who had received over a R which I did later on receive in the next 14I l
quarter.
Over an R.
And I provided this for him.
And he never 15!
brought the results back; he never mentioned it, anyway.
16l i
17l l
YUHAS:
So you haven't heard yet?
18f 19I l
RIDER:
No sir, I have not.
I did get the whole body count and I was 20l completely clean.
21,l 22 YUHAS:
Mr. Hipple, did you contribute a sample, or...
23 24 h
25 i
(
36 1.
HIPPLE:
I requested from my foreman.
Mcbody told me but I thought it 2
would be a good idea to get a whole body count.
They said 'No problem, 3
go over and get one'.
I had no urine sample taken, I did have some 4l traces of Iodine-131 on my whole body scan.
And some others but I'm 5
not sure what they were.
6 YUHAS: Okay, I think now that pretty much covers the period of concern 7
8 that we're thinking about.
Can you fellows offer any comments or g
criticisms about the way the in plant health physics emergency was handled?
10 In other words, what I'm locking for was, had you trained g
to -- had you been trained to cope with an in plant health physics emergency situation?
13 RIDER: What type of training were you...
I 15j YUHAS:
What I'm referring to is, normally you have an emergeny drill 16 j
every year and you dispatch the offsite environmental teams and this l
17 kind of thing.
Okay, as a part of that training, did you go through scenarios where you had very high dose rates and gas clouds floating 19!
i around the island?
201 21f RIDER:
We never had any formal training as such.
22 23 YUHAS:
For in plant health physics?
24l 25{
i 8
l 45-i
{
RIDER:
For in plant.
1, 2I 3
WHAS:
Do you have any procedures that deal with intrameasures? For 4
instance, authorizations of who should go in and who is responsible to 5
say that a man can go in and take 5 R to make a vital lineup or secure 6
a pump, or anything like that.
7 HIPPLE: Ye, that's -- this is Hipple -- that comes from our supervisor 8
g' which would be Dick Dibiel.
He has to authorize exceeding, at least 10 to go to a rem and up.
And there is paperwork filled out on that, you lli must have your Form 4.
i 12I YUHAS:
13 Mr. Rider, did Mr. Dubiel or Mr. Mulleavy establish a limit y
for your trip in there?
15i RIDER: Well, Mr. Evans spoke to that evening and I was taking an air sample when Mr. Evans came to me and told me what we were gc;og to be 18r!
doing.
And I didn't speak to Mr. Dubiel or Mr. Mulleavy about that.
i 19!
YUHAS:
Do you guys have any comments you want to offer about suggestions in terms of things that were either deficient or that could use improvement as based on your experience in the plant?
23 HIPPLE:
24 Oh, yes.
I believe we should have a much -- we have a training week that's called such.
We have not had any formal training during 25j i
' Q<p i
t
1' l
l 38 1;
that period, I would say, for the last 3 to 4 yuars.
And that is 2
lacking very much in Unit 2.
I was here during startup of Unit 1 --
3 well, before they even got from -- when it was still under construction.
4l There we had training of going through systems which had helped a lot.
5 Unit 2, [ TWEET!], there you are, you got it.
It was bad.
The radiation 6
m nitors is really a big concern for us, that's part of our job.
In 7
Unit I we went through which each one was for and so on.
Unit 2'we 8
had no formal training like that and I think that's very bad.
9 YUHAS:
Did this lack of training apply to areas other than health 10 physics and chemistry techs?
12!
HIPPLE:
Operations have a training week and they had much more training.
g They did have some type of training week.
I 15i 16:
Did that include the auxiliary operators?
YUHAS:
4 17l HIPPLE:
Yes.
18j 19l YUHAS:
What did you do during your training week?
20l 21 l
HIPPLE:
Worked.
22l 23 YUHAS:
Performing routine functions?
24, 25l
B564001' i
l 1
f
{
39 1
HIPPLE:
Yes.
2l i
YUHAS:
Did you find the same situation, Mr. Rider?
3 4
5l RIDER:
Yes. I do want to make one comment.
I thought that me being 6
ffsite team, I found that the actual emergency went a lot n an 7
smoother than the drills usually do.
I think the drills a lot time ended up to being a little bit of a laughing matter.
I don't think 8
they were well prepared.
As a for instance, they're supposed to be a g
drill monitor goes with teams everywhere and I know last year they O
sent me on a couple missions on different drills and my monitor wasn't with me.
Throughout the trip or he showed up later and said 'I'm standing in a 10 R field', something like that.
So I think as far as I
myself is concerned with the exception of maybe not having enough 14!
equipment.
But I don't think they anticipated needing this many teams 15;I over there, either.
I think that the actual emergency as far as the 16i offsite was concerned, went a lot smoother than any of the drills.
18{
HIPPLE:
I agree witil what Mr. Rider said.
I feel also that going 19l through the drills helped very much on going and doing your job because 20 the first time I ever was involved during the drill I felt like I was 21 dll thumbs.
I didn't know what to do, but I was surprised everything 22!
I went' smoothly also and people were really calm.
I was expecting to 23 come in to see mass pandemonium, you know.
It was nowhere like that.
24 j
People that worbd for Met Ed, really, I thought did a good job, as 25i i
much confusion as there was.
i 856(002
40 1
RIDER:
I really feel that the calmest place in the whole area was the i
Unit 2 control room.
The second day that I couldn't remember where I 2}'
3 was, that's where I was.
I was in the Unit 2 control room and I know 4
AT home with the telephones ringing and what not like that.
It was 5
much more hectic in there and certainly the observation center than it was in here.
The observation center was just chaotic.
There was 6
i 7'
entirely too many people there that should not have been allowed g
The news media and people who wanted to see what was going on, there.
etc.
g 10 YUHAS:
Mr. Hipple you made one brief comment alluding to problems in TLD reading.
Could you amplify that a little bit?
13 HIPPLE: Well, we didn't have problems reading the TLD as such but they brought the TLD machine that was sitting outside, well sitting 15!
16;t inside but we had all our TLD's set up outside on the porch.
There was no organization as such, you know, to read them.
It took, I would say, at least 1-1/2 full days of finally getting some type of organization t
18[
l to where, you know, they could be read properly.
Plus they kept, 191 i
every day there was a different area where you picked up your TLD.
20f That didn't help matters either.
21 22l l
"HAS :
Is there any question ir your mind that the TLD's were not read properly during that perio.1 of time?
24l 25 i
1856 003 I
I
f l
i 41 i
l 1l HIPPLE:
No, I think the TLD's were read properly.
It was just the 2j organization of picking them up and getting them back out.
Some people had two, some people had three.
That's the kind of problem I'm 3 :
4; talking about.
5 YUHAS:
Were your badge results representative of what your pocket 6
7 dosimeters indicated when you got your Form 5's? You know, your exp sure printout?
8l 9l
~
HIPPLE: My TLD and the pocket dosimeter, I read my own at the time.
10 g
That was just about, well I had 1.8 on my pocket dosimeter I had picked up roughly 1.82, something like that.
So it was real close.
13 YUHAS:
Did this data get reflected properly in the exposure printout 141 l
then?
15i 16l HIPPLE:
Yes, that part did but there were some people who it didn't get reported properly on the Form 5.
Most people in our department kept running record of their own.
Mr. Rider did a good thing a second 19l;
[
quarter.
He made up a running chart with everybody's name which, if 20' you use it, it's good.
22 RIDER:
That night the TLD reading and everything all went hand in 23 hand with the pocket dosimeter and was recorded, but April 1 or 2 I 24 i
received 980 mR and I went out and read my TLD myself.
At the time of 25l t
I 856 004
~
I l
i 42 i
1.
the TLD -- there were two TLD readers -- and they were located in a 2;
trailer at Trailer City, our observation center.
I read it myself and 3
I told the person working in there what I was doing.
They weren't 4;
working at night and there was just someone in there doing some other
~
kind of work and to tell them that I had done it.
I had recorded my 5
6 name and social security number and I went through the proper procedures 7
of getting it read, everything was fine.
I'took me about a week to get it recorded.
They never did find it, as far as I know.
It was 8
gl more or less assigned.
10 YUHAS:
So you had to go back and tell them what it was.
12l RIDER:
Not myself, my foreman.
14 I
YUHAS:
But you had to initiate that action? To insure that it did 15!
get entered on the form properly?
17 RIDER:
Yes.
.18!
19l YUHAS:
I seem to remember icoking at those forms for a couple of days and people kept telling me well, they're only one day behind.
And you 211 were more than one day behind by that time.
Okay fellows.
Do you 22-hav.a any other comments?
23 24 25!
~
' hb i
I
l 43 1
(UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER) I don't.
l 2l YUHAS:
I have one additional question.
Any reason for either of you 3
4 to believe that there may have been foul play or a disgruntled employee Sj r industrial sabotage either involved in precipitating the incident I
6l r aggravating its severity?
7' HIPPLE:
No, I don't believe there was nothing of that...
g l
9l I
RIDER:
Absolutely not.
10' 11!
YUHAS:
Okay gentlemen, I certainly want to thank you for coming over here in the middle of the night along the rainy Susquehanna (CHUCKLE).
The time is approximately 12:36 a.m., 5/4/79.
This concludes interview I
with Mr. Joe Hipple and Mr. Gordon Rider.
Thank you, gentlemen.
(END 15!
0F CASSETTE) 16i 17' 18(
i 19l 20j l
21t 22 23
-24l 25l l
856 006
!