ML20199E737
| ML20199E737 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 06/18/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#286-695 OL, NUDOCS 8606240011 | |
| Download: ML20199E737 (313) | |
Text
OR'G N Al O UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO: 50-456 OL 50-457 OL COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY
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(Braidwood Station, Units 1 & 2)
O LOCATION: JOLIET, ILLINOIS PAGES: 4620 - 4932 i DATE: WEDNESDAY, JUNE 18, 1986 i
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
O OfficialReporters 444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 8606240011 860618 6 (202)347-3700 PDR ADOCK OSOO NATIONWIDE COVERAGE
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMllISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 OL COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY : 50-457 OL 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :
__________________x 9
10 College of St. Francis 500 North Wilcox Street 11 Joliet, Illinois 60435 12 Wednesday, June 18, 1986.
13 The hearing in the above-entitled matter reconvened 14 at 9:00 A. M.
15 16 BEFORE:
17 JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman j i Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 1 i
18 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
! Washington, D. C.
19 JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, Member, 20 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 21 Washington, D. C.
22 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 23 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
24 APPEARANCES
() On behalf of the Applicant:
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MICH AEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
2 JOSEPH GALLO, ESQ.
EL EN A Z . KEZELIS, ESQ.
3 Isham, Lincoln & Beale Three First National Plaza 4 Chicago, Illinois 60602 5 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
6 EL AIN E I. CH AN , ESQ .
- 7 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
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U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 8 7335 Old Georgetown Road Bethesda, Maryland 20014 9
On behalf of the Intervenors:
10 ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i
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1 EXHIBIT INDEX Marked Received 2
Applicant's Exhibit No. 41 4742 4921 3 Intervenor's Exhibit No. 43 4780 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 44 4800 4 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 45 4809 Intervenors' Exhibits 5 Nos. 43, 44 and 45 4810 Staff Exhibit No. 2 4830 6 Staff Exhibit No. 2 4831 7
8 .
9 10 11 12 O 13 :
14 15 16 17 ,
18 19 20 21 22 .
23 24 l
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1 WITNESS INDEX 2
TESTIMONY OF FRANCISCO JOSE ROLAN 3
DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. KEZELIS: 4625 5 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GUILD: 4753 6 '
CROSS EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. BERRY: 4829 8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. KEZELIS: 4836 9
BOARD EXAMINATION 10 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN 4893 11 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GUILD 4894 12
( 13 14 15 16 ,
17 18 19 20 21 22
! 23 24 (E)
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 23rd day of hearing.
3 Are there any preliminary matters?
4 MR. GUILD: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No?
6 Then we'll go on -- oh, Mr. Guild?
7 MR. GUILD: Before we begin with the next 8 witness, let me distribute to the Board and parties the 9 exhibits that were identified and received in evidence 10 yesterday, 42 and 42-A, the NRC's memoranda.
11 I have first for the parties --
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Those are Intervenors' 13 Exhibits 42 and 42-A?
14 MR. GUILD: They are, Judge.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: 42-A is the in-camera 16 exhibit?
17 MR. GUILD: That's correct, Judge.
18 What I'm distributing now is Intervenors' 8xhibit 19 42, which is the -- it includes the expurgated version 20 of the April 5, '85, memo as well as the March 29th 21 memoranda,lt wo in number. They contain no expurgated
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22 material.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: This is one document in two l
24 parts?
25 MR. GUILD: It is, Judge.
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1 42-A now is the in-camera document. It contains 2 the names of certain confidential witnesses, and I ask 3 that it be treated as an in-camera filing.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are there any further 5 matters, Mr. Guild?
6 MR. GUILD: No, sir, I have none.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Then we'll proceed to 8 the next witness.
9 Ms. Kezelis, would you please call him?
10 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge Grossman.
11 I now call Mr. Francisco Rolan to testify on behalf ,
12 of the Applicant.
() 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
14 Mr. Rolan, would you stand and raise your right 15 hand?
16 (The witness was thereupon duly sworn.)
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Please be seated.
18 FRANCISCO JOSE ROLAN 19 called as a witness by the Applicant herein, having been 20 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION i 22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Would you state your full name, sir, and spell your last 24 name for the record?
25 A Francisco Jose Rolan, R-O-L-A-N.
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i 1 0 Thank you, sir..
2 Mr. Rolan, I'm going to ask you to take off your 3 sunglasses, please.
Thank you very much.
4 5 By whom are you currently employed, sir?
6 A BESTCO.
4 7 Q And how long have you been employed by BESTCO?
8 A Since July 25th.
9 Q 1985?
10 A Y"e s .
. 11 Q In what respect -- in what position are you currently i
j 12 employed by BESTCO, sir?
} 13 A Currently an electrical-mechanical Level II inspector.
14 Q All right.
15 That's a Level II QC Inspector?
l 16 A Yeah.
I i 17 0 What are your current areas of certification, sir?
18 A Termination, cable, RWI, welding, configuration, i
19 conduit, pan. That should be all of them. l l
20 0 One of the areas that you just identified was RWI; is 21 that correct?
22 A Right.
23 Q And what does that stand for?
! 24 A That's internal wiring revision.
! 25 0 Thank you.
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1 By whom were you employed prior to employment with 2 BESTCO, Mr. Rolan?
3 A L. K. Comstock.
4 Q And when were you first employed by L. K. Comstock at ,
5 Braidwood?
6 A 1980.
7 Q Okay.
8 And in what capacity were you first employed by 9 Comstock at Braidwood?
10 A The same.
11 Q Level II QC Inspector?
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12 A Yeah.
13 Q Prior to your employment by Comstock at Braidwood in 14 1980, had you had any prior nuclear construction or 15 quality control experience?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And can you describe that briefly for the record, sir?
18 A I've worked at the LaSalle station, I've worked at the 19 Perry station, and I've worked at Three Mile Island.
20 Q How long did you work at the LaSalle station, sir?
21 A Oh, I'd say about six, seven months.
22' Q That was Edison's LaSalle station; is that correct?
l 23 A Right down the block.
l 24 Q By whom were you employed there? -
25 A H. P. Foley .
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, 1 Q That's H. P. Foley?
2 A Yeah.
3 0 Okay.
4 And in what capacity were you employed at LaSalle?
5 A Quality control.
6 Q A QC Inspector?
7 A Yeah.
4 8 0 What level did you attain there?
9 A Level I.
10 0 Okay.
11 By whom were you employed when you were at Perry?
12 A L. K. Comstock.
13 Q And that was as a Quality Control Inspector?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q Okay.
16 And what level did you achieve there? ,
17 A Level II.
18 0 You were employed at Perry immediately prior to your 1
19 employment at Braidwood; is that correct?
20 A No, not prior -- well, I did work there before, but not 21 right --
J 22 Q Okay.
! 23 At which station were you employed immediately 24 prior to employment at Braidwood, sir?
25 ;g A Before I worked at Braidwood, I worked at -- in downtown Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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Underwriters Laboratory, and then prior to that I was 3 working at Shippingport for L. K. Comstock in 4 Shippingport, Pennnylvania.
5 0 And how long did you work at Perry for Comstock? l 6 A About two years, two and a half years.
7 Q By whom were you employed at Three Mile Island?
8 A United Engineers.
9 0 And in what capacity were you employed there?
10 A I was an electrical warehouseman.
11 Q Mr. Rolan, your father is employed by Comstock at 12f Braidwood as well, is he not?
( 13 A Yes, he is.
14 0 And in what capacity is he employed with Comstock at
' 15 Braidwood?
16 A Assistant project manager.
17 0 Okay.
18 And is his name Mr. Frank Rolan, Sr.?
19 A No.
20 0 Can you tell me what his name is?
21 A Pretty much the same, but he's not a senior; the same as 22 mine, but I'm not a junior.
23 Q Okay.
24 So his full name is Francisco Rolan as well; isn't 25 that correct?
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1 A Period.
2 Q Okay. Thank you. ,
, 3 And you have another relative employed by Comstock 4 at Braidwood as well?
5 A Yeah, I do, but, see, the way it works out, I was -- she 6 was there first, and then I moved in. We didn't know 7 each other. Then the old man came later. But nobody 8 knew the other was going to be there.
9 So yeah, my wife does work there, but I didn't know 10 her before I came here.
l 11 Q Okay. i 12 You met her at the site, though?
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13 A I met he'r here.
14 Q All right.
15 Do you recall when your father became employed by 4
16 Comstock at Braidwood, approximately what year?
17 A I'd say it's about seven or eight months af ter I showed 18 up there.
19 Q And your wife's name is Tonja Rolan now; is that 20 correct?
21 A Tonja, yeah.
- 22 0 In what capacity is she currently employed at the site?
l 23 A She is an engineering clerk.
24 Q And is that with Comstock Engineering?
l 25 A Yes.
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1 0 Can you describe briefly what the nature of her duties
! 2 are as an engineering clerk?
3 A Now?
4 Q Yes, sir.
5 A I don' t know; you know, go-for type deal, to make sure
- 6 that the craf t did what they' re supposed to, you know; 7 look on the RWI, look on the print, make sure it 8 matches.
9 Q Did she have some other position before she became 10 engineering clerk?
11 A Yes. She was -- she was there -- she was the person 12 that they let go that they shouldn't have. She was Irv 13 DeWald's top secretary, you know. She was there 14 forever, and, you know, she did very well. She knows a 15 lot about that, how to run everything.
16 But, you know, when they started jacking with her, 17 she got out when they brought the union in, because they 18 weren't going to hire her back because she was married 19 to me and -- you know Larry, Mr. Seese; right?
20 Talk to him.
21 Q Mr. Rolan, I don't believe you answered my --
1 22 A Oh, okay. Go ahead.
23 0 -- pending question.
24 A Okay. Go back. All right.
25 Q Let me repeat it --
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1 A All right.
2 Q -- so that you'll be able to answer it.
3 My question, sir, was: In what position was she 4 employed by Comstock before she became an engineering 5 clerk?
6 A She initially started out as the secretary, period; file 7 clerk, everything, jack-of-all-trades.
8 Then as the department grew and she couldn't handle
- 9. it anymore -- there was too many people. They brought
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10 moce people in; and she, in turn, eventually became like 11 Larry's personal secretary, Larry Seese, the Assistant 12 QC Manager, and she did everything for him.
13 Q All right.
14 And the " Larry" you referred to earlier in your 15 answer was Mr. Larry Seese, the Assistant QC Manager?
16 ' A Yes.
17 Q Did there come a time when your wife's responsibilities 18 included the maintenance of the ICR log, Mr. Rolan?
F 19 A Oh, yeah.
20 0 Okay.
21 Can you recall approximately when she was 22 responsible for the ICR log?
23 A Well, I'd say f rom ' 75 -- that's when I -- when did I 24 say I came here; '75 or whatever?
25 Q When you arrived?
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1 A She was here already when I came.
2 0 Okay.
3 A She was doing it then.
4 Q Do you recall approximately when she came to Braidwood?
5 A She came two weeks before I did.
6 Q You had testified previously that you began work at 7 Braidwood for'Comstock in approximately 1980 --
8 A Yeah.
9 Q -- is that correct?
10 Okay.
11 A I came in like the end of February, and she came like 12 the middle of February, because she started doing it 13 th en.
14 Q Your understanding was that her responsibilities as of 15 that time included the maintenance of the ICR log; isn't 16 that correct?
17 A ICR, NCR, vault, typing, everything.
18 Q Okay.
19 And she was responsible for both the ICR log and 20 the NCR log until sometime in 1985; is that correct?
21 A I wouldn't go that far.
22 You know, she did it; but as time grew and more 23 people came, they got people to help her.
24 0- Okay, all right.
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1 using the words you just used quite as accurately as the 2 Court Reporter took them down -- that she got out 3 because of the union.
4 Do you recall making a statement to that effect?
5 A Well, they didn't want to hire her because she was 6 related to me, you know. Before, you know -- they 7 couldn't say anything because she hired in before.
8 Q And the "they" you are ref erring to is who, Mr. Rolan?
9 A The "they" what?
10 Q You said, "They didn't want to hire her. They couldn't 11 do anything before."
12 A Yeah. Well, they --
O- 13 Q Who is the "they," Mr. Rolan?
14 A Okay; Comstock.
15 If you started working there and then I started 16 working there or whatever, if your husband started 17 working there and you weren't married, they couldn't 18 fire you because you got married; right?
19 0 When you said that she got out because of the union, 20 what did you mean when you made that statement, Mr.
21 Rolan?
22 MR. GUILD: He didn' t say that. The record 23 should reflect that when asked a second time, he 24 corrected your statement and said that she was fired for 25 some other reason.
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1 MS. KEZELIS: I don't believe, Mr. Guild, 2 that that's precisely what Mr. Rolan testified.
3 BY MS. KEZELIS:
l 4 Q Mr. Rolan, let me ask you this: You did use the terms, 5 "She got out because of the union. "
6 Do you recall saying that?
7 MR. GUILD: He did not use that.
8 BY MS. KEZELIS:
9 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall saying that?
10 A I don't know. What did I say?
11 The bottom line is she doesn't work there anymore; 12 right?
13 Q That's fine, that's fine.
14 Did she ask'to leave?
15 A What?
16 Q Did she ask to leave?
17 A No.
18 0 Okay.
19 A Actually, she was in lir.e with me, when we got laid off, 20 to go into the trailer; and the next thing I knew, she 21 was being taken away. I asked, "Where is she," and 22 nobody knew, so --
23 Q Mr. Rolan, when you just referred to a layoff --
24 A Yeah.
25 Q -- you were speaking about the July 23, 1985, transfer Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 of employment --
2 A Right.
3 0 -- from Comstock to SESTCO --
4 A Right.
5 0 -- is that correct?
6 A Right.
7 Q And when you made the statement that "they didn' t want 8 her," were you referring to BESTCO or to Comstock?
9 A I believe it was Comstock.
10 0 Okay.
11 I believe you also testified that she is currently 12 employed by Comstock; isn' t that correct?
13 A Well, they're not one and the same.
14 0 Okay.
15 A We've got -- we've got Comstock Construction, which is 16 different than Comstock Engineering. See, I work for 17 BESTCO, who, in turn, works for Comstock Engineering.
18 She worked for Comstock Construction out of 19 Chicago, whereas the one I'm working out of is kind of ,
20 like out of Pittsburgh; not the same company. ;
21 Q There are two Comstock companies, is that correct, on 22 the Braidwood site?
23 A Yeah.
24 g JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry. What was the l
{} 25 other one; Comstock Engineering and what?
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l MS. KEZELIS: Comstock Construction.
2 BY MS. KEZELIS:
3 Q Just so the record is straight, you currently work for 4 B ES TCO --
5 A Right.
6 Q -- which, in turn, provides workers or QC Inspectors for 7 Comstock Engineering; is that correct?
8 A Right.
9 Q Okay.
10 And your wife, Tonja Rolan, currently works for 11 Comstock Construction; is that correct?
12 A That's true. .
1 13 0 Okay.
14 You also, when you did make a reference to the 15 union, indicated, I believe -- and if that's not 16 correct, please tell me so -- something about either j 17 your opinions about the union or her opinions about the 18 union.
19 Do you recall something along those lines?
20 A What opinion would you like me to have?
21 (Laughter.)
22 Q Did you have an opinion with respect to the union, Mr.
23 Rolan?
24 A I was never for it, you know. My wife was never for it.
25 I voted against it, as she did, also; but I had '
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1 every reason to vote f or it, you know.
2 As far as I'm concerned, Comstock Engineering has 3 given me every opportunity and every reason to go 4 pro-union. I should have been the one carrying the 5 torch, going, "Go union." I should have, but I didn't.
6 I was - " Yeah. I'll stick with Comstock."
7 That ain't the way it should be.
8 Q I'm sorry. I didn' t catch the --
9 A That isn' t the way it should be, but that's the way it 10 was.
11 Q I didn't catch the statement you made immediately before l 12 th at.
13 A The one about I should have been pro-union?
i 14 Q Okay. Thank you.
15 You testified that both you and your wife were f
16 opposed to the union?
17 A Right.
i 18 Q Okay.
19 Did you make your feelings about the union known to 20 your fellow QC Inspectors, Mr. Rolan?
l l 21 A It was the natural assumption, yes. l 1
22 Q All right. I
- 23 It would be fair to say, would it not, that they 24 were aware that you were anti-union before the vote?
25 A Oh, yeah.
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1 Q Okay.
2 Did you ever feel any ramifications or suffer any 3 discomfort because of your anti-union feelings?
4 A I technically took it as it came and blew it off; but I 5 think the way you' re ref erring in the question -- I'm 6 sure you want to refer to the bathroom incident.
7 Is that what you' re trying to get me to ask you 8 about?
9 Q Mr. Rolan, I was leading up to the bathroom incident, as 10 you've just described it. ,
11 Would you describe for the Licensing Board and the 12 parties, please, what you meant by the " bathroom 13 incident"?
14 A Okay.
15 Well, I can't tell you exactly what date it was, 16 but they had been having little get-togethers at various 17 locations around town to have this gentleman come in and 18 pretend he was a used-car salesman for the union and 19 claim how wonderful everything was.
20 So finally one day they asked me to go. I said 21 "Okay , " you kn'ow , "I'll go." I figured, well, I'll just 22 take my tape recorder and write -- take down everything 23 he says so I can listen to everything he says, because 24 I'm kind of half deaf anyway.
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1 down next to my chair, not hidden or nothing. I tape 1 2 the meeting, and I go into the rest room. !
3 All of a sudden, these ten men come in af ter me.
4 I'm doing whatever, and they say, "Where are you going 5 with that tape machine?" I said, "I' ve got a tape of l 6 the meeting. " They says, "You ctn't do that. It's 7 against the law." I said, "B ul3. shit. "
8 They threatened me with ph /nical violence. I 9 figured these guys are suppose 4 to be my friends, and 10 that just goes to show you they really ain't, you know.
11 So they threatened me with physical violence if I
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12 didn' t give them my tape, because there were ten of them O 13 -- well, maybe only eight. I figured I'd better give 14 them the tape, not to causa any hard f eelings.
15 But as f ar as I'm concerned, what they did was 16 strong-arm robbery; and as far as I was concerned at 17 that minute, I had every right to call the local police 18 and have them arrested.
19 '
You're a lawyer. Right or wrong?
20 I could have had them arrested for strong-arm 21 robbery; right?
! 22 Q Did you call the police, Mr. Rolan?
23 A No, I didn't.
24 Q Okay.
{} 25 You, early on in this answer, made a statement to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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3 A Yeah.
4 0 -- locations.
5 Who were the "they" that you were referring to?
6 A Oh, the gentlemen that are in our department that were 7 more pro, you know.
8 I had heard that they were having little meetings 9 here and there. They'd have them like at the Holiday 10 Inn here.
11 The meeting I went to was at the Holiday Inn in 12 Morris, and that was like the first one I ever went to.
13 I went to like maybe three of them. The first one I 14 went to was at the Holiday Inn at Morris.
15 0 It was at the Holiday Inn in Morris, Illinois, where 16 you --
17 A Yeah.
18 0 -- experienced this incident --
19 A Yeah.
20 0 -- is that correct?
21 Okay.
22 Who, if you recall, were the eight to ten men who 23 followed you into the men's room?
24 A If you read the NRC disposition, you know, the complaint 25 and everything, pretty much everybody right down the
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l 1 list. It was about eight people, at the top, ten. ,
2 Q The "NRC disposition" that you just ref erred to, Mr.
3 Rolan -- would that be an NRC memorandum describing 4 allegations of QC Inspectors --
5 A Yes.
6 0 -- on March 29, 19857
, 7 A Yeah.
8 I wouldn't say everybody that's on that list was 9 there, but I would say some of the people that are on 10 the list were there, yes.
J 11 Q These were Comstock QC Inspectors --
12 A Right.
l 13 0 -- is that correct?
14 A Right.
15 MR. GUILD: Does counsel intend to show the 16 witness an in-camera document? .
17 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, Counsel does intend to
', 18 show the witness what has been marked and admitted into 19 evidence as Intervenors' 42-A.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think, before you show it 21 to him, you ought to ask him if he knows the names of 22 anyone who was there. 1
- 23 MS. KEZELIS
- That's fine, your Honor.
l 24 BY MS. KEZELIS:
25 Q Mr. Rolan, can you recall specifically the names of any O
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1 individuals who were --
2 A Okay.
3 Q Let me finish my question, Mr. Rolan, before you begin 4 to answer it. Thank you.
5 Can you recall the names of any individuals who 6 were, A., present and participating in the bathroom 7 incident that you just described and, secondly, had also 8 attended and complained to the NRC during the March 29, i 9 1985, visit?
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, let's do it one at a 11 time, Miss Kezelis. I don' t think you ought to tie 12 those together f or the witness. I think you ought to
-l Q 13 ask him who was at the bathroom incident.
14 MS. KEZELIS: That's fine. i 15 BY MS. KEZELIS:
16 Q Mr. Rolan, can you tell me who you recall being present 17 in the men's room at the Holiday Inn?
18 A First of all, we had the gentleman that was here 19 yesterday, Mr. Snyder. We had Mr. Bossong.
20 Q That's Mr. Larry Bossong?
21 A Yes.
22 We had George Nemeth. We had Tinker.
- 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- I'm sorry. Who was that?
24 MS. KEZELIS: George Nemeth , N-E-M-E-T-H.
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[} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is that a male or a female?
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1 MS. KEZELIS: That's a male, " George."
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought it 3 was " Joyce."
4 A (Continuing.) We had Therman Bowman.
5 BY MS. KEZELIS:
6 0 That's the " Tinker" you just referred to?
7 A Tinker.
8 We had Bob Wick, and we had Mr. Frisby, Ron Frisby.
9 Q Ron Frisby?
10 A And we had Larry Perryman and -- that's enough for now.
11 You get the general idea.
12 ' JUDGE GROSSMAN : Those are the only ones you O 13 remember now who were in the bathroom incident?
14 THE WITNESS: At the point, yes, right now.
15 BY MS. KEZELIS:
l 16 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall whether or not there were more 17 individuals present in the men's room during that 18 incident? i 19 A There may have been one or two, but I couldn' t tell you 20 what their names were right now.
21 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall who physically took the tape 22 from you in the men's room?
i 23 A Well, you know, it was like I popped open the machine 24 and I said, "Here." I more or less -- I gave it to them l 25 before they broke my -- you know, they grabbed my tape i
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1 machine, and I grabbed it back and popped the tape out 2 before they broke the tape machine.
f 3 Q Let's take it one step at a time.
4 Who first said something to you when you went into l
5 the men's room?
6 A Well, it was kind of like they were all talking at once,
! 7 you know.
I 8 Q Did you go into the men's room first?
9 A Yes. I was in there by myself, and they followed me in.
10 0 Okay.
11 And how close did they come to you physically?
l 12 A Oh, a couple inches, six inches.
13 0 Who did the talking f rom the group of inspectors?
14 A Oh, I'd say everybody did a little bit, you know.
15 It was like they were saying this and I was saying 16 this, you know; kind of like we were arguing amongst 17 ourselves. I just said, "Well, I don't need the hassle.
18 Here is the tape."
19 But as far as I was concerned, it was uncalled for l
20 because I was in -- I had every right to do so.
- 21 Q Okay.
! 22 Who physically was the closest to you, if you 23 recall?
l l 24 A Oh, I -- I couldn't tell you that. ,
. i 25 Q Okay.
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1 A That was a while ago.
2 0 I understand that. I'm trying to have you recall, as 3 best you can, that incident. That's all, Mr. Rolan.
4 Do you recall who specifically said anything to 5 you?
j 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, Miss Kezelis, I think l
) 7 you' re pushing it a little too f ar.
f 8 You know, I think he's given his best recollection; I
9 and if ,you keep almost insisting that he give you a 10 name, it may not be his recollection but he may be l
11 trying to just supply something you' re looking f or. I'm 12 not sure that we want that.
i 13 MS. KEZELIS: No, sir. I'm not looking for J
j 14 anything --
i 15 JUDGE GROSSMAN : Okay.
j 16 MS. KEZELIS: -- in particular.
17 BY MS. KEZELIS:
18 0 And you've already testified, Mr. Rolan, that you don't 4 19 recall to whom you physically gave the taper is that 20 correct?
j 21 A No.
, 22 Q Okay.
23 What, if anything, happened af ter you gave the tape
- 24 to one of those individuals?
25 A What happened?
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. 1 Q Yes, sir.
4 2 A They lef t with the tape, and I .lef t with my tape machine
- 3 and went into the cocktail lounge and had a beer.
4 You know, I kind of said, you know -- I kind of i
5 kept to the back. I didn't really say too much to l 6 anybody. I more or less left.right away, you know.
l 7 But as far as I'm concerned, I could have, you j 8 know, called the police and started all kinds of I
l 9 garbage.
10 Right or wrong?
l 11 Q Were you in fear for your physical well-being at any 1
12 time, Mr. Rolan?
l
! 13 A I was under the general assumption that if I didn' t give
(
14 them the tape, I would probably be physically beat in or i
15 something.
16 Q Have I pretty well exhausted your recollection about 17 that incident?
18 A Yeah.
- 19 0 Okay.
I
- i. 20 Is that the only incident that you experienced with 21 respect to your feelings about the union?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay.
24 I believe you also testified that your wife was l 25 opposed to the union or was not for it; is that correct?
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1 A Well, you can' t really blame her. I mean, you got these 2 J-O's that are mugging her husband in the bathroom. She 3 can't really have too much respect for them; right?
4 Q Did she experience any incidents, to the best of your 5 knowledge?
6 A I'd say the worst she had was --
7 MR. GUILD: Objection.
8 Now, I think the witness is probably competent to 9 say what his wife's opinions are, based on his 10 understanding.
11 But when it comes to f acts, he's not competent to 12 testify what happened to his wife, unless he was a 13 witness to it.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. What the objection is 15 is that you didn' t -- you can only testify as to what 16 you have first-hand knowledge of and not about what she 17 may have told you.
l 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So if you do have personal 20 knowledge of something that happened to her,'if you saw 21 it, then you can tell about it. But if it's only 22 something she told you about, then it wouldn' t be 23 proper.
l 24 So you can answer the question if you saw anything 25 that indicated she had some problem with the pro-union
)
l l
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1 people.
- 2 A (Continuing. ) Well, there was an incident once where
! 3 it was like she and her girlfriend were down at the bar, 4 having a beer --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Were you there with her?
6 THE WITNESS: No, I was not there. I was t
7 still at work.
i
- 8 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- Oh, okay.
)
9 A (Continuing. ) -- and her girlfriend and her were i
j 10 talking. One of the gentlemen that was pro-union was 11 giving her a bunch of garbage.
I j 12 I, in turn -- the next day I said, " Hey, I don't l
() 13 like this crap," and he jumped on my crap. When he
! 14 started jumping on my case af ter he jumped on her case, 1
15 it becomes my business.
! 16 MR. GUILD: Mr. Rolan should be free to i 17 explain what he has knowledge of, perhaps the next day's 18 encounter; but he obviously understands, perhaps from
) 19 his wif e, that this encounter took place the day bef ore.
20 I simply would ask that the record reflect that 21 that's the limits of his knowledge.
l 22 MS. KEZELIS: Your Honor, for the purpose of 1 23 inquiring as to any conversation Mr. Rolan participated i 24 in the following day and establishing the purpose of why 25 he had that conversation, I think he's entitled to
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l 1 testify what his wife experienced the day before, not j 2 for the truth of the matter asserted as to the ine'ident i 3 itself.
4 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, you know, Miss i
j 5 Kezelis, I thi'nk, though, when you ask the questions, I 6 you ought to try to get competent answers.
7 If you ask a broad question about, "Were there any 8 incidents that your wife had," it invites hearsay j 9 testimony.
10 If you had qualified it to " things that you were 11 present at" or, you know -- we might have had a 12 different response. '
1 i 13 MS. KEZELIS: That's understood, Judge.
I 14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Continue.
j 15 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
> 16 Q Mr. Rolan, who was the individual that you . referred to
)
- 17 in your prior answer?
18 A Who was giving her a hard time?
a f 19 Q Yes, sir.
20 A His name was Darfl Landers, who is now a supervisor.
i 21 Q And you testified that you approached Mr. Landers the i
22 next day at work; is that correct?
- 23 A Yeah, i
f 24 Q What did you say to him?
i 25 A I told him I didn't appreciate him getting on my wife's l
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i j 1 case because she wasn't into his stupid little union, 2 and he became all offensive. We were ready to go at it 3 right then and there, you know, so that was the end of 4 it.
5 Q Okay.
6 What was his response to your statement?
j 7 A I thought I made myself clear. He became off ensive, in 8 which I, in turn, became defensive.
- 9 Q Did he become physically offensive --
10 A Yes.
]
j 11 Q -- or was -- okay.
12 Can you describe in what respect?
13 A It was like, "Come on , " you know; like , "It's either you 14 punch me first, and I'm going to kill you," you know; 15 "that's what it's going to be."
i 16 He was egging me on, but I wasn' t going to throw i 17 the first punch, you know. That's what it was.
! 18 0 Did either of you physically hit each other?
i 19 A No.
20 Q How did this incident terminate?
i 21 A How did it terminate?
22 Q Yes, sir.
23 A I just walked away.
f l 24 Q You walked away from him; is that correct?
l 25 A Yes.
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1 Q What was Mr. Landers' position at the time of this 2 incident, if you recali?
3 A He was one of the gentlemen that were very pro-union.
4 Q Was Mr. Landers a Level II QC Inspector --
5 A Yes.
6 0 -- at the time?
7 A Yes.
8 0 Okay.
9 Was Mr. Landers a Lead at the time?
10 A I'm not sure.
11 Q All right.
l 12 He wasn't your Lead then, was he?
]
13 A No, no, no, no.
14 Q He wasn't your supervisor --
15 A No, no, no. '
16 Q -- in any respect at that time?
17 Okay.
18 Have I pretty well exhausted your recollection
- 19 about the incident with Mr. Landers, sir?
20 A Yeah, yeah.
21 Q Okay.
22 Mr. Rolan, let's turn now to the topic of Mr.
23 Saklak, Mr. Rick Saklak.
24 He was your supervisor at one time, was he not?
- 25 A Yes.
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1 0 Okay.
2 Can you recall approximately when he was your 3 supervisor, sir? ,
4 A July, '82, until whenever they smoked him.
5 MR. BERRY: What was the last answer?
6 I didn't hear the last part of the witness' answer.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Could the Reporter please 8 repeat that?
9 (The answer was thereupon read by the 10 Reporter.)
11 BY MS. KEZELIS:
11 Q Mr. Rolan, are you referring to Mr. Saklak's termination 13 in --
14 A Yeah.
15 0 -- in April, 19857 16 A Yeah. I think that was it.
-17 0 How would you characterize your relationship with Mr.
18 Saklak when he first became your supervisor in July of 19 1982?
20 A When he first became supervisor?
21 Q Yes, sir.
22 A I really didn't have any problem with him initially.
23 I didn't really have any problem with him initially 24 because we got along fine.
25 Then after a while, you know, it got to where they O
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- 1 just -- it got to like he had a vendetta against people.
2 If you'd watch him, he'd go f rom one person to the i
3 next, you know, just jack with them, you know, like 4 harass them or, you know, like, " Hey, what are you 5 doing, what are you doing"; you know, bird-dog, 6 heavy-duty bird-dog.
7 0 Did there come a time when Mr. Saklak acted that way to 8 you, sir?
9 A Oh, I'd say quite f requently, yes.
10 0 Okay.
11 Can you recall generally when your relationship 12 with him changed?
() 13 A Deteriorated?
14 0 Yes, sir.
15 A ,I don't know.
i 16 I remember it was -- I'm not -- I can' t remember.
i 17 It was pretty, you know -- it was pretty strange.
- 18 It was like when I had something he wanted, it was 19 okay; we were buddy-buddy. But when I didn' t have 20 anything he wanted, it was like, "I don't need you i
21 anymore," you know. That's typical.
22 0 In response to an earlier question, Mr. Rolan, you 23 testified that -Mr. Saklak had engaged in bird-dogging.
24 Do you recall using that term?
l 25 A Yeah.
O l
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- O 1 Q What did you mean by that?
2 A I'd say bothering you, checking up on you, generally 3 bothering.
4 0 Okay.
5 When you say " bothering," what do you mean, Mr.
6 Rolan?
7 A Well, if you're sitting there doing your job and whoever 8 is your boss -- he comes over and you' re writing what 9 you' re doing here, if you' re writing your paper and your 10 boss comes over and says, "What are you doing, what are 11 you doing," every ten minutes, you' re going to be like, 12 "Get away fron me"; right?
i 13 You' re a paid professional; right or wrong? You 14 know what you' re doing now; right or wrong? You don't 15 need him bothering you every five minutes; right?
l 16 That's bird-dogging.
17 0 Okay.
18 In other words, then, Mr. Rolan, Mr. Saklak would 19 approach you f requently and ask you what you were doing?
20 A (No response.)
21 MS. KEZELIS: Mr. Rolan, would you like the 22 question repeated? !
23 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, go ahead and repeat 24 the question. I just want to --
l i
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are you trying to recall Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 what actually happened?
2 THE WITNESS: It's not so much that.
3 I want to give a proper answer to where it doesn't 4 make everything look hunky-dory, and that's not the way 5 it is.
- 6 Go ahead. Repeat the question.
7 MS. KEZELIS: Miss Court Reporter, would you 8 read the question again, please?
9 (The question was thereupon read by the 10 Reporter.)
l 11 A Yes, but -- but I'd say it was kind of like in a
! 12 dif f erent -- in a diff erent type of attitude, I guess O 13 the word could be.
14 You know, it was like, "What are you doing?" It
]
15 wasn't like, "Oh, what are you working on now?" It's 16 like, "What are you doing," that type of deal.
i 17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, it's hard to get the 18 tone in the transcript.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think what you' re saying 21 is that it was a hostile attitude; is that right?
22 THE WITNESS: Right, it was more of a 23 hostile-type deal instead of, "Well, what are you 24 working on now?"
25 It was that type of deal.
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1 BY MS. KEZELIS:
2 Q Would it be f air to characterize Mr. Saklak's demeanor 3 as one of nagging?
4 A Yeah.
5 0 Would Mr. Saklak nag you only in the trailer or would he 6 also nag you out in the field?
7 A Out in the field we really didn't have too much problem 1 8 because he didn't know where to go, and we did.
9 Normally he couldn' t find us.
10 0 Did you have an understanding that he would attempt to 11 look for you out in the field?
12 A Oh, yeah. He'd come out there wandering around, trying
] 13 to, you know, bird-dog people; but, you know, he never 14 could find you, so you were okay.
I 15 0 Do you personally have any knowledge, Mr. Rolan, of Mr.
16 Saklak attempting to find you out in the field and that 17 he couldn't find you?
- 18 A Do I have any knowledge of him looking for me?
! 19 0 Yes, sir.
20 A I'm very sure he did. I know for a f act he probably 21 did.
22 I can't say he ever found me. He may have at
{ 23 various times come across, you know -- I think I've ran 24 into him out there. Whether or not he was looking for 25 me -- I couldn't go that far.
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1 But what are you referring to when you ask me that 2 question?
- 3 I mean, what are you trying to get to?
4 O Mr. Rolan, I was trying to determine whether Mr. Saklak 5 would nag you only in the trailer or whether he would 6 nag you in the field, as you phrased that.
7 A Yeah, I'd say it's saf e to say that, yes.
8 0 That it would be --
9 A It's safe to assume that, you know, he'd come out of the l 10 building - "What are you doing?" "I'm doing what I'm i 11 supposed to be doing."
12 0 In the trailer?
() 13 A Not even in -- you know, out in the field, too.
14 0 In the field as well?
15 A Oh, yeah.
16 Q Would Mr. Saklak generally nag you when you were 17 perf orming your paperwork?
18 A Ch, yeah.
19 Q All right.
20 And your paperwork was generally performed by you 21 where?
22 A Various locations. We did it in the office, and we did 23 it out in the field.
24 0 I believe you have not answered a question which I asked
{} 25 you some minutes ago, Mr. Rolan.
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O 1 That was: Can you either specify or generally 2 identify a time when your relationship with Mr. Saklak 3 had deteriorated?
4 A Oh, I couldn' t tell you exactly when it was.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did it happen --
6 A (Continuing.) I mean, you want a date; right?
7 I couldn't give you one.
8 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
9 Q Can you give me a year?
10 A No.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, did it happen all at 12 once or was it gradual?
O 13 TH E WITNESS : Oh, no. It was like I 14 mentioned to her before. It was like a cycle, you know.
15 It was like -- it wasn't like just me.
16 It was like it would go f rom -- it would be like 17 he'd go f rom one person this day and then another person 18 and another person and another person. It was just 19 like, "Let's go jack with" - "it's Monday; let's go 20 jack with this guy. It's Tuesday; let's go jack with 21 this guy. It's Wednesday," you know, and on and on.
22 That's more or less what it was. You know, people 23 say, "No, that's not true." But if you sit there and 24 watch him, it was.
25 BY MS. KEZELIS:
(])
l 1
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1 Q You' ve testified thus f ar, Mr. Rolan, that Mr. Saklak 2 would nag you.
I 3 Did Mr. Saklak harass you in any respect, other 4 than merely nag you?
5 A Oh, you mean like become increasingly hostile and cuss 6 people out in front of the entire office?
7 Q Is that something that had happened to you?
8 A Not only once.
- 9 I suppose you're going to want a date. I don't 10 have a date. I can't give you a date.
11 Q That's fine.
12 A Yes, it happened -- not just me; lots of other people.
O 13 He became increasingly hostile, violent, upset.
14 Q Can you recall the first such time, Mr. Rolan, that Mr.
j 15 Saklak became hostile, violent or upset with you?
16 A I can't recall the very first time, but I'm -- I'm sure 17 I complained.
18 0 Can you recall any specific incident, Mr. Rolan, with 19 Mr. Saklak?
20 A It gets to where they' re so numerous, you know.
21 Q Mr. Rolan, I'm going to ask you --
22 A We went through this in Chict.go, and I told you the same 23 thing there.
24 Q Mr. Rolan, you are referring, I believe,- to your
.25 deposition also taken by subpoena --
(
{])
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1 A Yeah.
2 0 -- in Chicago.
3 Nevertheless, I'd ask you to testify for the Board 4 and the parties present today any specific incident that 5 you recall with Mr. Saklak.
6 A Let's see.
I 7 They had -- they had the time where they threatened 8 to fire me for -- he don' t -- I don' t -- he threatened 9 to fire me because he wanted me to write up an l
10 electrician on a nonconf ormance report, and I said, ;
11 "It's not the electrician's fault. It's the architect's 12 fault."
O 13 I had previously documented the architectural 14 error, and I did everything I was supposed to do 15 according to my superior; and everything was cool.
16 He became increasingl*J hostile. He yelled at me; I 17 yelled at him. It became a shouting match. Mr. Larry 18 Seese came in and said, " Hey, what's going on?" I, in l 19 turn, lef t for the day.
20 I've discussed it with everybody; and everybody 21 agreed I was in the right and he was in the wrong.
22 That's -- that's the major one.
23 You know, it just got to where I was tired of, you 24 know, his crap; and that -- yes, that occurred six weeks
{) 25 -- exactly six weeks before Mr. Snyder's episode.
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1 Q Okay.
2 That occurred six weeks bef ore the Snyder-Saklak 3 incident on March 28, 1985? !
4 A Yeah.
5 0 So it would be f air to say, in other words, that it 6 occurred sometime in early February --
7 A Yes, I guess.
8 0 -- of 1985?
9 Okay.
10 Earlier in your answer, Mr. Rolan --
11 MR. GUILD: Can we go off the record and 12 approach the bench, Mr. Chairman?
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry?
14 MR. GUILD: Can we approach the bench, 15 please?
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
17 Did you wish the witness to step out in the --
18 let's go off the record.
19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 20 the proceedings were resumed as follows:)
l 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We' re back in session.
22 Miss Kezelis?
I 23 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge Grossman.
24 BY MS. KEZELIS:
25 Q Shortly bef ore the break, you characterized Mr. Saklak
[
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1 with the terms " hostile," " violent" and " upset."
2 Do you recall using those words?
, 3 A Yeah.
4 Q When you used the word " violent," what did you have in 5 mind?
6 A Temper tantrum.
7 Q Is your --
8, A Waving arms, stamping feet, excessive screaming, redness 9 of the f ace.
10 Q Did you have in mind in any respect physical violence 11 when you used that term with respect to Mr. Saklak?
12 A You mean actual physical violence?
1 0v 13 Q Yes, sir.
14 A No, he never used any physical violener against anyone a
15 that I actually know.
16 He threatened to, but I've never seen him actually 17 do it.
18 Q Was Mr. Saklak violent, in the way you've just desceibed ,
19 that term, to you?.
20 A In the past, he has been known to fly off the handle.
21 Q I don't believe you answered my question, Mr. Rolan, 22 which was --
23 A Yeah.
24 0 -- whether he had acted in the respect you've just
- 25 described to you.
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1 A Excessive language, redness of the f ace, jumping up and 2 down --
3 0 Okay.
4 A -- temper tantrums, yes.
5 3 The answer is yes, then; is that correct?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Did you feel threatened by that action of Mr. Saklak's?
8 A Be doesn't really threaten me, you know, because if he 9 yells at me, I yell back, you know. I do that anyway.
10 0 And did you have occasion to yell back at Mr. Saklak?
11 A Did I yell back at him?
12 Q Yes, sir.
13 A Not always, but when I was right, I did, which, in turn, 14 would have him yell back at me and I would yell back at 15 him.
16 The incident that I am referring to is exactly the 17 incident that I had referred to earlier this morning, in 18 which -- the draf ting error, and you know all about 19 that.
20 Q All right.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Mr. --
23 A I was right, and I had it with this problem. I said, 24 "It's time to take a stand." He laid into me, and I 25 laid into him.
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1 Q Okay.
2 When you use the term " laid into," you mean both of 3 you yelled at each other; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Be -- he tanted and raved at me, and-I turned 6 around and gave it right back because I was right. I 7 was doing exactly as I was instructed by my immediate 8 supervisor.
9 Q All right.
10 Now, who was your immediate Lead at the time of the 11 incident that we are talking about?
12 A At that time it was Mr. Don Schirmer.
13 0 And what had Mr. Schirmer's instructions to you been?
14 A You want to go back to the very beginning?
15 Q With respect to anything that precipitated this incident 16 between you and Mr. Saklak, did Mr. Schirmer give you 17 specific instructions bef ore that incident?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What were those instructions?
20 A Well, we usually start the day, and he'd say, "This is 21 what I'd like you to do." They pull out the report. -
22 You take the work. You research everything you 23 need, and you go out in the building and take everything
\
24 you need. You take all the drawings and everything you 25 need to do that work.
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1 Well, I came across one inspection that was a 2 draf ting error, and this is what this whole incident 3 became. It was a minor draf ting error.
4 I talked to four or five engineers. I said, "What 5 do you think of this? It looks like taey made a slight 6 mistake." They agreed with me, you know. We checked 7 everything out.
8 I documented the draf ting error, and I gave the 9 initial inspection report back to Mr. Schirmer and told 10 him to hold on to this report; that I have documented a I
11 draf ting error and that I would inspect this at a later 12 date when I got the draf ting error corrected. Because" O 13 it was such a minor drafting error, he said to go ahead 14 and inspect it anyway.
15 The actual wiring of the component was exactly the 16 way it should be, and everything the electrician 17 actually did was correct. The actual work completed was 18 correct. There was just a little draf ting error on a 19 reference drawing, okay.
20 0 Let me interrupt for just a minute so that we'll all 21 understand what it is you' re talking about.
22 Was it Mr. Schirmer who told you to conduct an 23 inspection anyway, despite the existence of a draf ting 24 error?
{} 25 A Yes, but it is -- it's like -- what it is is you'd have Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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1 one drawing that shows you how to wire up the component 2 because -- you have to understand: Braidwood Station is 3 designed by Sargent & Lundy.
4 Q Yes, sir.
5 A Are you familiar with Sargent & Lundy drawings?
6 Q Mr. Rolan, I am asking the questions here.
7 A Okay.
8 To make a long story short, they swapped Loop 2 9 with Loop 4 in the containment building.
10 0 That was on the drawing; is that correct?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Okay.
13 A Now, everything in Loop 2 is exactly the same as in Loop 14 4 on this particular drawing. It's just that this 15 component is supposed to be in Loop 2 and they had it 16 listed in Loop 4.
17 Q On the drawing?
18 A Yeah.
19 Now, out in the building, it's in the right 20 location just like everything is supposed to be. Just 21 one reference drawing had it backwards.
22 Q All right.
23 And that morning Mr. Schirmer had given you the 24 documentation underlying that installation for you to 25 perform an inspection on it; is that correct?
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1 A Yes.
2 0 All right.
3 And then you discovered that the installation was 4 correct but that the draf ting error had transposed the 5 loops; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right.
8 And then what did you do when you discovered that?
9 A I documented the drafting error. I talked to Donny. I 10 said, "Here. Hold on to this. I wrote a draf ting error 11 up. When they correct it, I'll go out and inspect it."
12 He said, "Go ahead and inspect it," and so I did.
13 Now, Rick wanted me to write the nonconformance 14 against the electrician.
i 15 As far as I'm concerned, it isn' t the electrician's 16 fault; it's the architect's.
17 I couldn't see getting the electrician in a bind 18 over S & L.
19 0 When you said that you had documented the drafting error 20 that you identified --
21 A Yeah.
22 0 -- how did you document it?
4 23 A A nonconf ormance report.
24 Q So you --
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1 answer.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: A nonconformance report.
3 THE WITN ESS : A nonconf ormance report.
4 BY MS. KEZELIS:
5 Q So you issued an NCR on the draf ting error itself; is 6 that correct?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q How did you come to understand that Mr. Saklak wanted 9 you to also issue an NCR against an electrician?
10 A He wanted me to issue the NCR that I wrote against the 11 documentation against the electrician, and I didn't 12 think it was right.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
14 It wasn't that he just wanted you to write the NCR 15 against the electrician and not to write one against. the 16 draf ting error; is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, he wanted it to be one 18 and the same.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I see, but against the 20 electrician?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
22 I didn' t think it was the electrician's f ault, and 23 it isn't, you know. You' re the craf tsman, but it ain' t 24 your fault. You didn't draw it.
1 25 BY MS. KEZELIS:
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1 Q How did Mr. Saklak come to know, if you know, that you 2 had already documented a draf ting error on an NCR?
3 A Because Jackie Joyce, who is the personnel that was 4 doing the logs at the time, wondered where my hold tag 5 was. I couldn' t very well put a hold tag on a print, so 6 I didn't put a hold tag on a print.
7 She became all upset because I didn't put a hold 8 tag on a print. I said, "There is no hold tag."
9 So that's what it -- that's what started it. If 10 she wouldn't have said anything, nothing would have 11 happened, but no.
12 Q Is it your understanding that Ms. Joyce then spoke to 13 Mr. Saklak about the hold tag?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right.
16 A And then me and Rick started going back and forth on it, 17 and I disagreed. He wanted me to write the electrician 18 up, and I didn't see anything wrong with what the 19 electrician did.
20 I still don't.
21 Q Okay.
22 Did you tell Mr. Saklak that you had already issued 23 an NCR --
24 A Oh, yeah. I 25 0 -- on the drafting error?
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1 A Oh, yeah.
2 Q Did he --
3 A I had -- I had initially wrote it up before I even 4 inspected it. I didn't even go out in the building and 5 inspect it before. I already had the documentation 6 error, you know, wrote up.
7 Q Okay.
8 A But I was instructed to go and inspect the item anyway.
9 Q And that was Mr. Schirmer who had instructed you --
10 A Yeah.
11 Q -- to go out and inspect the installation --
12 A Yeah.
()
13 Q -- as installed?
14 A Yes.
15 He felt that the actual installation of the item 16 would not be in any way affected; and we had already 17 talked -- everybody and their brother, the engineer 18 downstairs -- you know, everybody whose area it was --
19 we talked to them already, and they agreed with us.
20 MR. GUILD: I'm sorry. Could you repeat the i 21 answer?
22 THE WITNESS: They agreed with us.
23 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
24 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
25 And the electrician, as you understood it, was the
{') Q l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l individual who would perf orm the physical installation? l 2 A Right.
3 Q Did Mr. Saklak make any statement to you with respect to 4 what you should do about the NCR you had already 5 initiated?
6 A I don't know. All we did was yell and scream at each 7 other.
8 Q To the best of your recollection, then, the only topic 9 of conversation was whether or not you ought to issue an 10 NCR against an electrician; is that correct?
11 A Well, that's more or less what he wanted me to do, and I 12 didn' t -- I didn' t agree with it. Then it became a 13 shouting match.
14 Q Did he use any physical violence against you?
15 A No; just yelled a lot.
16 Q Okay.
17 And you yelled back at him; is that correct?
18 A Oh, yeah.
19 I did exactly as I was told to do.
20 Q And that was by Mr. Schirmer?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q Okay.
23 And Mr. Schirmer told you to finish the inspection 24 despite --
/~% 25 A Yes.
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1 Q -- the drafting error?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you talk to Mr. Schirmer about that incident 4 afterwards or no?
5 A He was in the room.
6 Q All right.
7 And what was Mr. Schirmer -- let me ask you this:
8 Did Mr. Schirmer participate in your discussion with Mr.
9 Saklak?
10 A No, but he did soon after when they had -- had the 11 conf erence three weeks later.
12 Q And what are you referring to, Mr. Rolan?
1 O 13 A I'm referring to the f act that af ter I reluctantly added 14 the electrician to this nonconformance, I lef t for the 15 day and told Larry Seese, the Assistant QC Manager, who 16 came in and told us, " Hey, what's going on" -- I told 17 him everything that went on.
18 I told him I did not appreciate him using that 19 excessive abusive language towards me, because I was 20 doing exactly as I was instructed and according to all 21 documentation and procedures, and that I was leaving for 22 the day.
23 I came back the next day, and I complained to 24 management about this. I came back the next day and I 25 came back the next day and I came back the next day; and Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 I went back every day for three weeks, saying, "I don't, 2 need this f rom this bozo. I don't need his crap. I did 3 exactly as I was instructed to do. All documentation 4 was written as required. Everybody who was involved in 5 this situation in any way was inf ormed. He didn' t have 6 the right to use the excessive abusive language to me 7 like he did."
8 Three weeks to the day, I had already draf ted up a 9 letter that -- I was going to write a f ormal complaint 10 of him, you know. He was like threatening to fire me 11 because I would not write up this electrician, 12 threatening to have -- I believe the word was something I
13 about having the NRC pull all my certifications or 14 something like that.
15 You have it all written down. I know you do.
16 I complained every day for three weeks. I had 17 written up a letter, and I was going to mail it.
18 Before I did, we ended up having a conference and 19 all that; and Mr. Schirmer said that yes, I had did 20 exactly as he had instructed.
21 You know the rest of the story.
22 MS. KEZELIS: Well, Mr. Rolan, you have been l 23 subpoenaed to testify, and I'm going to ask you -- l 24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 MS. KEZ ELIS : -- to be responsive to my Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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() l 1 questions, all right?
2 I'm going to ask you to listen to a question and 3 then answer it to the best of your ability.
4 THE WITN ESS : Okay.
5 MS. KEZELIS: Secondly, I'm going to remind 6 you that the Licensing Board was not present at your 7 deposition and that this is a hearing rather than merely 8 a deposition.
9 Accordingly, you may not assume that everybody 10 present here is aware of what you may have said at your 11 deposition.
12 Is that understood?
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, let me explain.
14 Those depositions are basically a trial run by the 15 attorneys, and that's not in evidence. We don't know 16 what went on in the deposition.
17 THE WITN ESS : You didn' t read the book?
18 (Laughter.)
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, we don't read that 20 because we wait until they put that on before us now.
21 They try to find out what happened, and they take 22 your story. Then --
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Then when you come back 25 here, whatever they think is usef ul, they ask.you those l
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1 questions so you-can tell us the story here.
2 So you can' t assume that we know anything about 3 what you told them previously.
4 THE WITNESS : Okay.
5 How far back do you want me to go?
6 BY MS. KEZELIS:
7 Q Let's move back momentarily to the f act that, as you've 8 testified, Mr. Saklak threatened to fire you; is that 9 correct?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q All right.
12 And it was at the same incident that Mr. Saklak O 13 said words to the effect of, "When the NRC is through 14 with you, you won't have any certifications"; is that 15 correct?
16 A This is true.
17 Q All right.
18 Did you have an understanding at that time of 19 whether Mr. Saklak had any authority to fire or hire a 20 QC Inspector? -
21 A Be liked to pretend he did; but for him to actually fire.
22 anybody, it would have been a very excessive hard --
23 very, very hard for him to do it, you know.
24 Q Mr. Rolan, what was your understanding about Mr.
Saklak's authority to hire or fire a QC Inspector?
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1 A My personal --
2 Q Your understanding, sir.
3 A My personal feeling is he -- he couldn' t fire anybody.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
5 Before, you indicated that you went and complained 6 to management every day for three weeks.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Who did you mean in 9 management?
10 THE WITNESS: I complained to Larry Seese, 11 who is the Assistant Quality Control Manager; and he 12 said that I should wait and mention it to Mr. Irving
( 13 DeWald, who was the QC Manager at the time, because he 14 was away on vacation.
15 Now, when he got back, I had told him everything 16 that went on. Larry Seese had told him everything that 17 went on. I talked to him every day about this incident
, 18 for three weeks, and I finally said, " Fine."
19 Then all of a sudden, they wanted to. talk to me :
20 because I had already written a letter. I wrote this
]
21 letter out, and I had everybody's name on it, everybody 22 of any importance at .the Braidwood Station, you know:
23 Mr. Shamblin and the NRC people that were on-site, the 24 Labor Relations Board people, 25 I had gotten this list of names f rom Mr. Seeders, l
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1 because I'm sure you are aware that at one time he wrote 2 this letter to everybody; right?
3 And that's how I got the list of names to mail this l l
j 4 letter to.
5 Well, I didn't mail it because before I was going !
6 to mail it, I figured I had to ask my father what he <
7 thinks, you know, of this letter. I don't want to come !
8 off sounding like a bozo, so I asked him. I said, "What 9 do you think about this letter?" I was asking him 10 between me and him.
l 11 Well, he, in turn, asked me -- or he said that, "I l 12 cannot talk to you as your father now. I have to talk 1
13 to you as the project manager." I said, "Well, 14 whatever."
15 Soon thereaf ter, Don Schirmer, myself and Rick 16 Saklak and I believe Larry Seese was in there -- they f 17 had a little conference, and we talked over everything 18 that went on. Don Schirmer did say that I did 19 everything I was supposed to do under his direction.
20 Af ter that, we left.
l 21 Later on in the day, just Rick and myself and 22 Irving were in there; and they said, "Well, we're going 23 to" - "we' re going to write him up," you know, " write a
~
24 letter saying that," you know -- and I said, "That's 25 bullshit because you' ve written ,him up time and, time i
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1 again" -- and this is true; he's been written up many 2 times f or abusiveness to fellow employees.
- 3 Irv said, "Well, what would you like me to do?" I 4 said, "If it were up to me, he'd be working at Bob's Big 5 Boy up in Chicago," and that's exactly what I told him.
l 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, now, do you have --
7 THE WITNESS: And then six weeks later, he 8 had that incident with Mr. Snyder.
9 Can you blame Mr. Snyder for -- why should he 10 bother to talk to Irv DeWald?
11 Irv didn't do nothing. He sat there, and he didn' t i 12 do nothing with me for three weeks,'you know. Why Q 13 should he bother going to Comstock management?
14 He just said, "The heck with it," and went right
- 15 over to the NRC. It wasn' t like he didn' t try. I mean I
16 -- and now look what we have now. Look at all the money 17 being spent here.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Do you have any personal 19 knowledge of Mr. Saklak being written up before?
I 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, oh, yeah, various 21 times. He's been written up so many times it's unreal.
4 4
22 He just walks in there when nobody is around and 23 pulls them out of the file and throws them away.
, 24 Presto, he doesn't have any more --
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: When you say " written up,"
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1 what do you mean; someone filed a complaint?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that made a written 3 complaint by management against him.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: By management?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It would be like --
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: A reprimand?
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, upper management. That 8 would be exactly what it is, you know, saying -- they ' re 9 in the file.
10 (Indicating.)
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry. I don' t mean to
, 12 take away your questioning, Miss Kezelis.
13 MS. KEZELIS: All right. Thank you.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Mr. Rolan, I'm going to show you what has been 16 previously marked as Intervenors' Exhibit 42-A. It's 17 the in-camera document.
18 For the record, it's an April 5th memo summarizing 19 the statements attributed to a variety of QC Inspectors, 20 . allegedly made to the NRC on March 29, 1985. This is 21 the unexpurgated version.
22 Mr. Rolan, I'm going to ask you, first of all, if 23 you've ever seen this document or a document like this 24 before.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, bef ore you do O
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( l 1 th at , if there are things you want to ask him about what 2 happened there, before you try to ref resh his 3 recollection, I think you ought to ask him directly.
4 Documents like that are suggestive. I think you 5 ought to ask your questions; and if he has no 6 recollection, then you can show him the document if 7 there's any problem with his answering the questions.
8 But before we encounter a problem, I think you 9 ought to ask direct questions.
10 MS. KEZ ELIS : I have asked the direct 11 questions already, your Honor; and if you take a look at 12 Page 3 of that document momentarily, you'll understand
! () 13 where it is I'm coming f rom.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. In other words, 15 there's something that you've gotten some variance f rom.
16 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, okay. Proceed.
18 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you.
19 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, the other problem 20 that has not been dealt with squarely is that we are now 21 showing an in-camera document to someone who is not 22 subject to the Board's protective order. l 23 The problem obviously is cured if you ask the 24 question directly. If that's now not possible and 25 counsel wants to ref resh the witness' recollection or O
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1 impeach him f rom the document, the answers that may be 2 given may themselves be subject to protective order.
3 She obviously is providing someone who is not 4 subject to the protective order at this time with an 5 in-camera document.
~
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, we're going to go just 7 so far as to that protective order. It really doesn't 8 even include dhis hearing except to the extent that we 9 extended it somewhat on Friday.
10 The original protective order really had nothing to 11 do with the -- with the hearing itself. It was only 12 with regard to discovery, and I don't think we want to 1 13 hinder ourselves to the extent of nondisclosure 14 completely of witnesses.
15 MR. BERRY: Mr. Chairman, I would mention 16 also that the copy of the document that's referred to 17 and has been identified as Intervenors' Exhibit 42-A --
18 the in-camera, April 5, 1985, Chuck Weil memo -- was 19 made available to Mr. Rolan by the NRC Staff.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, it has already been?
4 21 MR. BERRY: I believe, yes.
l 22 MS. KEZELIS: That's correct, your Honor.
23 MR. BERRY: It's not coming to his attention 24 for the first time through the Intervenors or the 25 parties. This document had been made available in 1985 l
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1 to this witness.
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2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Then the objection is 3 overruled.
4 Let's -- you can show him the document, but again, 5 I would hope you' re only going to be ref reshing his 6 recollection on matters that you've already covered and 7 you' re not just breaking new topics there in showing him 8 the document.
9 We ought to have his present recollection to the 10 extent that he has it.
11 BY MS. KEZELIS: ,
12 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall visiting the NRC on March 29, 13 1985?
14 A Yes.
15 0 All right.
16 You were one of the group of 24 or so QC Inspectors 17 who visited the NRC around lunchtime on that date; is 18 that correct?
19 A This is true.
20 Q All right.
21 And what was your purpose for visiting the NRC on 22 that date, Mr. Rolan?
23 A My main purpose was that I was informed that Mr. Snyder 24 had gone over in the morning and complained about Mr.
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1 I was informed by Mr. Bossong that they were going 2 to be going over during lunchtime -- and they asked me 3 if I would like to go -- because they had complaints 4 against Rick Saklak.
5 Now, I had only heard through rumor what Mr. Saklak
! 6 had did to Mr. Snyder. I felt, well, hey, I'd better go 7 tell them what he did to me; they already know what he 8 did to John Seeders.
9 So as far as I was concerned, you know, this was
- 10 another -- you know, this is true. This is not like 11 just a once-in-a-blue-moon type of deal.
12 That was my main purpose for going over: more or l
13 less to support Mr. Snyder's idea, you know, to say, 14 " Yeah. Hey, this guy is jacking with me," and I can 15 say, "Well, yeah, he jacks with me, too."
16 Q All right.
17 A I didn' t go over there for -- because we ' wanted --
18 however you write in the papers, how you said we want 19 the contract negotiations or whatever. That's all
- 20 bullshit. I didn' t go over there for that.
i j 21 I went over because I felt this supervisor was i
22 jacking with Rick; he was jacking with me; he was
]
i 23 jacking with John; he jacked with a lot of other 24 inspectors.
25 That's why I went.
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1 Q All right.
2 Earlier in your answer, Mr. Rolan, you testified 3 that your main purpose -- and I'm emphasizing the word 4 " main" --
5 A Yes.
6 0 -- in visiting the NRC on that date was because of your 7 feelings regarding Mr. Saklak; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right.
i 10 Did you --
11 A I guess you could say "only purpose."
12 Would that be better, "only"?
13 Q Was that your only purpose?
14 A That's the reason why I went, yes, period.
15 Q Did you make a statement to the NRC at that time?
I 16 A Yes. I believe it's written down.
17 Q All right.
18 And was that statement regarding Mr. Saklak?
19 A I'm pretty sure it was.
20 0 All right.
21 And can you recall the substance of what your 22 statement to the NRC was regarding Mr. Saklak?
23 A I believe we just discussed it about five minutes ago.
24 Q All right.
25 And that was the incident,, as you have testified, i
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1 wherein Mr. Saklak had wanted you to issue an NCR 2 against an electrician --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- and your Lead, Mr. Don Schirmer, had told you to 5 complete an inspection even though the draf ting errors 6 existed with respect to the inspection you were 7 performing; is that correct?
8 A You' re making it look like -- you' re making us look like 9 we went and inspected this even though it was draf ted 10 wrong.
T 11 Q Okay.
12 A That's not how I want it to look. You're pushing the 13 picture around, and that's not right.
14 Q I don't mean to do that, sir. I want your best --
15 A That's not right at all.
16 Q I want your best recollection of what transpired.
17 A Okay. -
18 Yes, there was a draf ting error.
- 19 Q Okay.
! 20 A If you were aware of Sargent & Lundy's drafting 21 abilities, you would understand what I'm talking about.
22 This drawing refers to this drawing, which refers 23 to another drawing.
24 Q All right.
25 And you --
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1 A Now, Loop 1 -- or Loop 2 was swapped with Loop 4.
2 Q That's right, and you've already testified about that.
3 A Right. It was like a chart like that.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're past the explanation.
5 We just want to make sure that that's what you talked 6 about to the NRC.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is true.
8 I don' t -- I don't want to come across saying like, 9 "Yes, there was a draf ting error, but we inspected it 10 anyway, knowing it was w rong. "
11 The actual work was not wrong. The actual work was 12 ' correct.
( 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
14 THE WITN ESS : It's just that another 15 off-the-wall ref erence drawing in the back was messed 16 up. -
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you discussed that with 18 the NRC; you told them what happened?
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah.
20 I've even discussed that problem itself with -- I 21 don' t see him in here -- Mr. Mendez.
22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Mr. Mendez of the NRC?
24 A Mr. Mendez, yes.
, 25 0 Mr. Mendez spoke to you --
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1 A Yes.
2 Q -- regarding the incident?
3 A At a later date, we discussed it. I even showed him.
4 Q But at the March 29, 1985, visit, you made a statement 5 to Mr. Schulz and Mr. McGregor of the NRC?
6 A Yes. I told them all about that incident.
7 Q Okay.
8 And to the best og your recollection, it was Mr.
9 Schirmer who had told you to go ahead and complete the 10 inspection because, as you have testified, he felt it 11 would be acceptable; is that correct?
12 A Yeah, yeah.
( 13 Q All right.
14 Now, let me show you what's been marked as 15 Intervenors' Exhibit 42-A, Page 3 of that memo, Mr.
16 Rolan.
17 (Indicating. )
18 I'll ask you to take a l'ook at the ref erence 19 appearing to the right of your name, " Frank O. Rolan" --
20 A Uh-huh. -
21 Q -- and ask you as atd that, Mr. Rolan.
22 A Okay. It says, "On November 5,1984, Saklak told him to 23 finish an inspection even though draf ting errors were 24 noted." It says, "Rolan complained- to Comstock 25 management about this issue, but" -- okay.
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4689 O i 1 Now, . as you can see, what is written here -- and 2 you can take it for what it's worth -- is not completely 3 accurate.
4 Q Okay.
5 In what respect is it not completely accurate?
6 A If we go back to Point A, the initial inspection was 7 completed by the electrician. The electrician gives it 8 to his foreman. His foreman turns it in. It comes to us.
9 10 Mr. Schirmer gets the work. He issues it to me. I 11 take the work. I do the research on it. I noted a 12 draf ting error. I talked to various engineers about 13 this draf ting error. I documented the draf ting error.
14 I told Mr. Schirmer, saying, "This item is 15 incorrect. There's a minor drafting error." I wrote it 16 up. I showed him exactly what the draf ting error was.
17 He instructed me to complete the inspection because 18 he felt that at that time there would be no -- the 19 actual installation completed had no bearing on the 20 draf ting error whatsoever, period.
21 Then, because there was not a hold tag issued, 22 because I did not write up the actual wiring that was 23 completed -- only a minor draf ting error -- a hold tag 24 was not issued because I did not write a hold tag on the )
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1 what to do; no hold tag.
2 Me and Rick went around and around about why I j 3 didn't issue a hold tag. He wanted me to write the )
4 electrician up.
5 N ow , the electrician -- the drawing that he used to l
6 wire this print -- to wire this component up would not 7 have noted a draf ting error on it. It's another drawing 8 that refers to it. The electrician probably never even 9 noted the other drawing.
10 It would not -- I can't say he didn't, and I can't 11 say he ignored it or anything. I can' t say that because 12 I don't know.
13 Q All right.
14 A But I was going to not do the inspection but was 15 instructed by my Lead to do it because he felt that no, 16 it would not affect the quality of the inspecting at 17 all.
18 He became -- Rick Saklak became excessive because I 1
19 did not ref erence the electrician.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, it seems, though, 21 that what's written here -- l 22 THE WITNESS: Is not accurate.
- 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- -- is at variance with what 24 you're telling us. l 25 THE WITN ESS : Oh, very much so. )
i l
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: It's indicated here that Mr.
2 Saklak told you to finish the insp;ction --
3 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- even though there were 5 draf ting errors.
6 You' re telling us that Mr. Saklak wanted you to 7 write up an NCR on that and you wanted to finish the 8 inspection without the NCR.
9 Is that what happened?
10 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 11 no. You guys got it --
12 JUDGE GR,OSSMAN : That's not correct?
( 13 THE WITN ESS : No. What's written here is i
14 incorrect, okay?
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes?
16 TH E WITNESS : What is written here is
- 17 incorrect -- oh, there is something correct on here. It 18 say s "Nov em be r 5 th . " That's correct.
i 19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, why don' t you read f 20 that and tell us what is true and what is untrue about 21 that statement.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. " November 5 th" is 23 correct.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did Mr. Saklak --
25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Saklak's name is correct.
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1 He wanted me to issue a nonconformance against the 2 electrician because of a draf ting error. He became 3 excessive, et cetera, et cetera.
4 I complained to management because of his excessive 5 -- et cetera, et cetera. That part there, " complained 6 to Comstock management about this issue, but did not 7 receive any satisf action" -- this is true.
8 That part is true, too, but he lef t out all the 9 stuff in between.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, now, let me ask you:
11 Did he say anything to you about that NCR that you 12 indicated you dr'afted with regard to the drafting error?
13 Did he tell you anything about that, either -- or 14 did he say it was fine that you wrote that NCR?
15 THE WITN ESS : Did he say it was what?
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did he say it was okay for i 17 you to have written that NCR?
! 18 Did he say it was improper?
19 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. It's -- it's 20 expected of me to write that.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
22 So he didn't complain about your having written 23 that NCR?
24 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't complain about 25 that I had written the NCR. He just wanted me to add
)
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1 the electrician to it.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: To that same NCR?
3 THE WITN ESS : Yes. He wanted me to write the 4 electrician that did the work -- his name in this.
5 When you write the NCR, you' re supposed to write 6 the electrician's name on there, saying, "This is the 7 guy that did the work, and he did it wrong," so you know 8 who did this work w rong.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So really your only dispute 10 with Mr. Saklak was with regard to adding the 11 electrician's name --
12 THE WITN ESS : Yeah. -
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- which you thought would 14 blame the electrician f or - the problem, when he really 4
15 wasn' t to blame or at f ault?
16 THE WITNESS: That's all it was. I didn ' t 17 think the electrician should get reprimanded or 18 whatever, because it wasn't his f auIt. It was the S & L 19 designer.
20 I didn't think it was right for the electrician to 21 get in trouble because some S & L guy drew it -- the 22 drafting error.
23 He became excessively violent, and that's all it 24 was. It became a shouting -- it became -- a little l 25 thing became a big mountain, is what happened, and you Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 see it here.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. I think you've 3 completed that answer.
4 BY MS. KEZELIS:
5 Q Your testimony, then, Mr. Rolan, is that it was the 6 usual practice to also issue -- well, to also identify 7 the electrician on any NCR you were issuing?
8 A Oh, it's common practice, yeah. ,
9 Q And that's what Mr. Saklak wanted you to do?
10 A Oh, yeah.
11 Q And you disagreed because you didn't feel it was the 12 electrician's f ault; is that correct?
! 13 A It isn't.
14 Q All right. That's fine.
15 Now, you also testified that Mr. Seese came into 16 the room --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- or was present when you and Mr. Saklak were yelling 19 at each other; is that correct?
20 A Actually, Mr. Seese was in his office at the time; but 21 due to the nature of the loudness of our voice, he could l 22 hear us. I 23 0 Okay.
l 24 And he came out; is that correct?
25 A Yes. He came into the office in which we were yelling.
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1 Q All right.
2 And what, if anything, did he say, if you recall?
3 A He asked me to come into his office.
4 Q All right.
5 Did you do that?
6 A Yeah. ,
7 Q And then what happened?
8 A I told him what was -- what happened and that I was 9 leaving for the day.
10 0 And then you lef t for the day; is that correct?
11 A I'm pretty sure I did.
12 0 Okay.
13 A What did he say?
14 I mean, this happened --
15 Q Did Mr. Seese support you or was --
16 A Oh, yeah.
17 Q He agreed with your position; is that correct?
18 A Ch, yeah.
19 Q All right.
20 A You know, he was -- he agreed with me.
21 Q Okay.
22 Did --
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
24 Did he agree with you on the substance of what you I 25 said with regard to the electrician or was it with l
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1 regard to Mr. Saklak raising his voice to you and being 2 abusive?
3 THE WITN ESS : The latter.
4 JUDGE GROSSNEN: The latter? That's what he 5 agreed with you on?
6 THE WITNESS: He didn't know exactly what the 7 screaming and et cetera was about at that time. He just 8 figured, hey, this is out of hand, and he didn' t feel 9 that it was right, period.
10 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
11 Q Mr. Rolan, did the procedures in existence at the time 12 of this incident state whether or not the electrician's 13 name had to appear on a nonconformance report or an l 14 Inspection Correction Report?
15 A Did it what?
16 Q Did the procedures address whether or not an electrician 17 should be identified on --
18 A At that time I don't believe so. It was just common 19 practice to add --
20 Q It was common practice to do so?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q All right.
23 A I don' t believe it was procedurally required.
24 Q All right.
25 Did you explain what had happened in the manner Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 you've just testified now when you spoke with Mr. Mendez 2 of the NRC?
3 A Yeah. I showed him.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I showed him the report. I showed him the drawing. I 6 showed him everything.
- 7 Q All right.
8 And it was your understanding that Mr. DeWald 9 eventually issued a written warning to Mr. Saklak 10 regarding this incident; is that correct?
, 11 A Three weeks later.
12 Q All right.
13 Were you reprimanded in any respect for this I
14 incident, Mr. Rolan?
15 A Somehow I'm surprised I wasn't.
i 16 0 Is the answer no, you were not reprimanded for this 17 incident?
l 18 A This time, yeah.
! 19 'Q When you made the statement "this time," were you
( 20 reprimanded at some other time?
21 A Oh, yeah.
22 You've -- as you know, our QC Manager, who is now 23 the Assistant QC Manager, Irving DeWald -- he has a nice
- 24 way of switching around any problem that should occur 25 between construction, the electricians, anybody, and the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1 quality control personnel.
2 If there is ever a problem, he has a nice way of 3 swapping it around and blaming it on the QC guy. It's 4 never like, "Let me" -- it's never, "Let me check the 5 facts out, and we'll get back to you."
6 It's always like, "The inspector screwed up. " It's 7 never -- he never stood behind the inspector. Even if 8 he was right, he would not stand behind the inspector.
9 Q All right.
10 - A It was always the inspector's f ault, and that ain' t the 11 way it is.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. You're not --
13 A (Continuing. ) But he has a nice way of making it 14 always our f ault, and that's not the way it is.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. You're not talking 16 . about an official reprimand; you' re just talking about 17 statements --
18 THE WITNESS : Oh, I've gotten them before.
19 Don't get me wrong; I've gotten them before.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
21 Was there any further -- any reprimand to you 22 because of this incident?
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, not this incident, no.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
25 BY MS. KEZELIS:
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1 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall receiving or participating in a 2 discussion with Mr. DeWald, approximately two weeks 3 af ter this incident, regarding your prof essionalism and 4 your perf ormance in inspections?
5 A I wouldn't be surprised. I probably did.
6 Q Okay.
7 Can you recall the substance of any discussion --
8 any such discussion you had with Mr. DeWald?
9 A Oh, he probably said -- let's see. He either said I was 10 either, one, picking on the welders or, two, picking on 11 the vault clerk; one of the two. He's good for both of 12 th em .
13 JUDGE GROCUMAN: You don't recall his 14 specifically saying that to you?
15 THE WITNESS : Usually one of the two. Th ey 16 say I'm picking on the welders or picking on the vault 17 people. That's usually how it goes.
18 BY MS. KEZELIS:
19 Q And you had received warnings regarding your picking on 20 the welders?
21' A Oh, yeah.
22 You' ve seen them. Every one of those in there says 23 I'm a jack-off all the time. It doesn't say anything 24 about all the times I'm right, it doesn't say all the 25 times I'm right. All it says is I'm a jack-off.
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I 1 Q What do you understand-that term to mean, Mr. Rolan? ;
2 A Excuse me?
3 0 What do you understand that term to mean?
1 l 4 A Oh, let's see.
5 Uncooperative or inefficient, generally whatever --
6 whatever you'd like to put it out to be; hard to get j
7 along with.
i 1
8 It doesn't say anything about when I'm right.
j 9 0 Okay.
10 You are stressing, Mr. Rolan, situations in which 11 you were right.
- 12 Do you agree with the statement that there were i 13 situations in which you may not have been right?
l 14 A Oh, yeah.
i 15 Q Okay.
16 A But I don' t -- I also d'on' t agree with them having the 17 right to just put whatever they damn well please in the 18 file.
19 You' ve seen it.
j 20 Q Mr. Rolan, I'm going to remind you that we are --
i
- 21 A Okay.
22 Q -- here in a hearing and that all the parties and the l 23 Licensing Board was not present at your deposition, all i
24 right?
i 25 A Okay.
l l
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3 1 Q Okay.
j 2 Do you recall the circumstances in which you 3 received a warning because you were, as you've 4 testified, picking on the welders?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q All right.
j 7 And can you describe that incident to us?
j 8 A There was a deal where there's written -- as you've seen
! 9 in my file -- and nobody else here has -- there's a 10 two-page written -- and it's very poorly copied so you 11 can't really read it. I'm sure they copied it that way l 12 so you couldn't.
13 But it says that I was being uncooperative with the 14 welders, the initial problem being that this welder, the 15 same exact welder -- they asked me to go work on an ICR 16 that another gentleman had wrote, meaning Mr. Rick
] 17 Martin, okay.
18 The welder -- he wanted me -- and he had a written 19 report in f ront of him. He wanted me to reinspect these 20 components, welding components, and write down all the 21 items that were wrong.
j 22 Now, he had a report in his hand that had ,
23 everything written up on it already. He had all the j 24 welds written out in black marker already.
The welder 25 had just taken his little wire grinder and ground off Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. '
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1 all the little marks so you couldn't see where all the 2 defects were that were already written out.
3 This welder wanted me to spoon-feed him, see if he 4 could get me to buy off anything that was already -- you 5 know, that was already written up.
! 6 I'm like, " Hey, why don't you look at it first and 7 then call me? When you get done with this hanger, you
~
8 call me."
! 9 As far as I'm concerned, it's not my job to 1
i 10 spoon-feed them welders. They' re getting paid $22 an 1
11 hour. They should know how to weld. They should know
, 12 how to read the documentation, all the draf ting stuff.
1
() 13 This guy wanted me to do this, and I said no. He
- 14 became excessively rude to me. He started yelling at 15 me, and I yelled right back.
16 I said, "I don' t need this. " We yelled -- me and
- 17 this welder yelled and screamed at each other. I lef t.
18 I just said, "The heck with it." I didn't say anything 19 to our management. I just said, "The hell with it. "
u .
20 Then I get this letter in the thing, saying that 21 I'm picking on this guy because I don't spoon-feed him 22 because he don't bother to read the ICR's that were i 23 written on his hanger and he wants me to buy off the i
24 stuff that's already written up.
25 It doesn't say anything about him jumping on my l
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1 case because I'm not going to spoon-feed him. It 2 doesn' t say that. It just says I'm picking on him, and !
3 that's not the way it is.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I'm not sure I 5 understand what he was trying to get you to do.
6 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Bad he already done the ;
8 work?
I 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. He had not done J 10 any thing.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did he want you to stand 12 there while he was doing the work?
() 13 THE WITN ESS : He had not done anything.
14 JUDGE GROSSPEN: Did he want you to stand 15 there and assist him, telling him what he ought to do 16 while he was doing the work?
j 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. He wanted me to reinspect i
18 his hanger for him.
19 As f ar as I'm concerned, another inspector had 20 already done it. It's not my job to go against another j
21 inspector. If another inspector says it's bad, it's 22 bad. It's not my job to. go back and say -- if this guy
! 23 says it's bad, it's bad, cut and dry.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In other words -- I'm not j 25 sure this is what you' re saying -- are you saying that l
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1 he wanted you to reinspect it even though he didn't do 2 any further work on it?
) 3 THE WITNESS : I wouldn' t say he didn' t do any 4 further work. I would say he didn't do any work.
5 He had a report in his hand, saying this hanger was 6- -- had problems on it. He dragged up all his equipment 7 up there. He didn' t do anything to it.
- 8 He called me up ther'e and said, "Here. Inspect 9 this hanger." I said, "You' ve got a report. When you 10 get it done, you call me."
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In other words, he wanted l
12 you to inspect it without doing any rework on it?
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
15 THE WITN ESS : And that's the gentleman whose 16 name is on that reprimand.
17 It says I'm a jerk because I won't spoon-feed him, 18 but it doesn't say anything about him yelling and
\
19 screaming at me. I just say, "The hell with him," and I !
20 walk away. I'm a big boy. I can handle people yelling j 21 at me.
! 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, is that 23 relevant?
24 MS. KEZ ELIS : Peripherally, yes, your Honor.
25 BY MS. KEZELIS:
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Q Mr. Rolan, did the welder have his equipment in the 2 vicinity when this incident took place?
3 A He had everything.
4 Q Was it your understanding that he was prepared to repair 5 the weld?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right.
8 Did you have an understanding as to whether or not 9 he was asking guidance from you as to the manner of 10 repairs that you would want?
i 11 A Yes.
12 Q' All right.
13 And you refused to give him any advice concerning 14 those welds; is that correct?
15 A Only because he already had been given written t
16 documentation of all the errors that were --
17 Q All right.
18 I believe you testified that the welder had cleaned 19 the weld off; is that correct?
20 A Not necessarily the weld, but the --
21 Q The area of the weld?
! 22 A The Magic Marker.
23 All right.
Q 24 And what were those Magic Marker notations, if you 25 know?
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l A Those are -- what we normally do is we take a black 2 Magic Marker, and we write down a def ect. We write 3 certain types of defects and point it over to certain 4 parts of the welds; like, "You have a problem here and 5 there." We write it on the hanger so they know what to 6 do.
7 This guy cleaned off everything Mr. Martin had 8 wrote out for him and wanted to see if he could get me 9 to change it around. I'm like, " Hey, you' ve got an ICR 10 in your hand. Work to that. Just look at every weld; 11 and when you're done, you call me." l i
12 Q Mr. Rolan, you understood that the welder had cleaned 13 off the magic markings that would have indicated what 14 the def ects were for the welds; is that correct?
15 A Yes, but he also had a piece of paper in his hand, 16 telling him the same thing.
17 Q All right.
i
]
18 Did you look at the documentation you just referred 19 to?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q All right.
22 And that was something that Mr. Martin issued; is 23 that correct?
24 A This is true, this is true.
25 0 And your understanding was that the welder was asking Sonntag Reporting Servicer ,Ltd.
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1 you to identify for him, in eff ect, what the black
- 2 markings would have said; is that correct?
3 A This is true.
4 Q All right.
5 And you received a warning for that incident; is 6 that correct? ,
i 7 A Yes, as a matter of fact, I did.
- 8 Then I went back up there, and I took my little i
j 9 marker and I wrote -- I was real sarcastic about this, 10 too. I wrote, " Pretty please clean this undercut over 11 here. Pretty please do this. " I was real tacky about 1 12 it, you know, i
- 13 But as you will see, that gentleman whose name is 14 on there -- you'll see that we have Tinker -- I'd say l
15 about a week later he had the same problem, the same I 16 welder.
I t
17 I mean, he didn' t get written up f or having --
I 18 picking on the welder. I did because I didn't go and 19 complain to management, saying, "This welder was jumping 20 on my case. "
21 Q Mr. Rolan --
i 22 A I just blew it off, but I get written up.
23 dDDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, please try to 24 answer just the questions that Miss Kezelis asks you.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Go ahead.
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1 BY MS. KEZELIS:
2 Q Do you recall, Mr. Rolan, the manner in which or the 3 words that you used to advise the welder that you would 4 not tell him what defects you saw in the welds?
5 A What did we use?
6 0 What words did you use, Mr. Rolan?
7 A Oh, I'd say it was probably lots of four-letter words.
8 Me and him yelled and screamed at each other.
9 He's an all-right guy. Don't get me wrong.
10 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall using four-letter words --
, 11 - A Sure.
12 0 -- to the welder?
13 A He used them at me. I used them back.
14 Q Do you recall what words those were that you used?
15 A Sure.
16 Q Can you say them, please, for the record?
17 A I couldn't tell you exactly -- exactly what they were.
18 They were probably like, you know, " Clean your 19 goddamn welds off," or, you know -- and he'd say, "Why 20 don't you do your fucking job," and I'm like, " Fuck you.
21 You don't tell me what to do. Do it and then call me 22 when you get it done." We was yelling at each other.
23 I've known the guy for years he's been out there.
24 We get along fine. It was just like it was a nasty
^
25 location. He didn' t like being where it was. It was Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 hard to get to.
2 It was a Mr. Martin ICR, and no welder likes to do 3 Mr. Martin's ICR's, you know. They ' re like jinxed or 4 something. Everybody is paranoid to do them.
5 Q Mr. Rolan, do you --
6 A I -- I w on ' t go ba ck . If an inspector says it's bad, 7 it's bad. It's not my job to go against another 8 inspector.
9 Q Did you understand the welder asking you -- strike that.
l 10 Did you understand the welder to be asking you to 11 identify what def ects you saw?
12 A That I saw?
(:)
13 Q Yes, sir.
l 14 A Oh, yeah.
15 Q All right.
16 A See, now, you're trying to --
17 Q Mr. Rolan, please. I'm going to ask you --
18 A Okay.
19 Q -- to answer the questions I ask, okay?
20 Thank you.
- 21 A Go ahead.
22 Q Do you recall the name of the welder involved?
4
- 23 A Do I recall his name? '
24 I want to say it was Mr. Cobb, I believe. )
l 25 Q That's C-O-B-B?
)
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! 1 A Whatever.
2 Q All right.
- 3 Mr. Rolan, what position were you holding in the QC 4 Inspector work force when this incident took place?
4 1
5 A I was a mechanical inspector.
6 Q All right.
]
7 Do you recall whether or not you were a Lead l 8 Inspector at that time?
i 9 A Oh, yeah, I was. That's right.
10 Q All right.
j 11 A But, you know --
l 12 Q And do you recall whether or not you remained a Lead 1
13 Inspector af ter this incident?
14 A No. They told me I was picking on the welders; that I 15 wasn't going to be Lead no more. I was like --
16 Q Is it correct, then, Mr. Rolan, that you were removed 17 f rom your position --
18 A Yeah, this is true.
19 0 -- as Lead in part because of this --
20 A Yeah.
j 21 Q -- incident?
1 22 A Because I pick on the welders, you know. They don' t 23 want to -- they want to see if they can get me to buy 24 off something that somebody already rejected, and I'm 1
25 not going to spoon-feed them.
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1 Q And it was your feeling at the time that the welder was 2 asking you to spoon-feed him as to the defects of the 3 welds?
4 A Well, wouldn' t you say that?
5 Q Mr. Rolan, I will remind you that I am asking the 6 questions, 7 A Okay.
i 8 I'd say that was getting me to spoon-feed him. He 9 had written documentation in his hand. He had written
- 10 documentation on the hanger with black Magic Marker. He 11 took a wire brush and scraped it all off. You can' t see 12 what the original inspector wrote on there.
( 13 He wanted me to see if I would go and do it over.
14 As far as I was concerned, the other guy did it. It was 15 rej ected, period. It's not my job to go against another
- 16 inspector, and I don't.
17 0 Is that the only instance that you can recall in which 18 you were picking on a welder?
19 A Oh, there's -- there's a couple more. They say I pick 20 on them.
21 I don't pick on them welders. I'm just not going 22 to spoon-feed them. They' re paid $22 an hour. They 23 pass a certification at the time --
' 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, please, just 25 answer the questions.
i O
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I 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. )
1 2 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
{ 3 Q Do you recall whether these other incidents of you i
4 picking on welders occurred before you were removed f rom 5 your position as Lead?
6 A It was probably before.
7 Q All right.
8 Do you recall generally or specifically what you 9 were told when you were removed f rom your position as 10 Lead?
1 11 A I wasn't going to be Lead no more or something like i 12 that.
13 Q ' nd who told you that?
A
! 14 A Irving.
15 Q All right. ,
16 Was anybody present?
l 17 A Sure. Larry Seese was there, writing in his diary.
18 (Laughter.)
l 19 Q Mr. Rolan, I'm going to ask you to answer the questions 20 I've asked.
4 21 What specifically did Mr. DeWald say to you at that i 22 meeting?
23 A Let's see. They said that I was unbecoming of a welding 24 inspector or something like that, you know, and et
- 25 cetera, et cetera, you know. I just kind of -- so what,
)
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1 you know, but --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If you' ve completed the 3 answer --
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay. I'm not going to go on. '
5 6 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
7 Q Do you recall approximately when it was that you were 8 removed f rom your position as Lead?
9 A Oh, I was removed f rom Lead of that area af ter the bulk 10 of the major equipment panels were reinspected, because i
11 we had a massive reinspection program and myself and two 12 other guys reinspected every major equipment -- piece of 13 equipment in that nuke plant.
14 Af ter we got it pretty much done, that's when I was 15 relieved and they told me I was picking on the welders.
16 As far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to 17 spoon-feed them. It's not my job. They know how to 18 weld.
19 Q Mr. Rolan, you also testified that in addition to 20 picking on welders, you were told or had, in fact, 21 picked on vault clerks.
22 Do you recall saying that?
23 A Yeah, I pick on vault clerks, too. You didn't know 24 that, did you? )
l \
25 I used to -- there was a time when --
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan --
1 2 THE WITNESS: Yes?
3 i JUDGE GROSSMAN : -- did you answer her 4 question?
i l 5 A (Continuing. ) Yes, I pick on vault clerks, too.
i 6 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
7 Q Do you recall any specific individual?
! 8 A Yeah.
] 9 0 And what individual or individuals was that?
1
- 10 A Oh, various -- okay. .
l j 11 At the time when I was a respectable Lead of the 12 equipment area, I used to have this nice little package j
13 that I would set up for the vault personnel. I'd go and 14 write out all the Form 19's; they' re the welding l 15 inspection reports for the equipment.
l 16 We'd have it all written down, and I'd put down the i
17 equipment inspection report and have anything, if it was l
i l 18 acceptable, together. I'd have it stapled together in a j 19 nice little package. You had the welds and the major i
j 20 equipment report plus the installation report; l 21 everything you needed in one little package.
22 I'd mail it to the vault. Those yahoos would rip 23 it all apart and then lose it. They'd come up there 1
24 yelling and screaming at me, saying -- there was a time l
25 when there was like four or five of them, and I'm saying t
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C) 1 four or five because I'm talking Baranowski and Miss 2 Pro-union, whatever the hell her name was. Her name is 3 on that thing, whatever it is. Byers I think it was.
4 They' re coming up. Irving DeWald is there. Larry 5 Seese is there. They' re like a little swarm around me i
6 going, "What did you do with this? What did you do with i
- 7 this?"
8 I said, "I attached it in one neat little package."
9 They took it downstairs, pulled it apart, stuck it in 14
! 10 little files, lost it and then they yell at me. I'm 11 like, "I don't need this . "
12 Then they said later on th'at I was being abusive to
()
j 13 Miss Byers or whatever her name was.
14 Miss Byers, No.1, was a vault clerk, period. She 15 came f rom Custer Park, graduated f rom high school, came
- 16 to Braidwood, worked in the vault. All of a sudden, l 17 she's God's gif t to equipment; she knows everything 18 there is about equipment, and that's bullshit.
l l 19 She'd tell me, "You wrote the equipment list down i 20 wrong. " I said, "Did you go out and look at it?" "N o . "
21 She sat in the vault. She tried to tell me how to fill l 22 the checklist out, and I told her to pack it.
- 23 I'm the one signing it off, buying it off. My name 24 is on the bottom of that list. I was there. No vault i 25 clerk is going to try to tell me how to do my
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1 inspection.
2 Yes, I was written up for picking on the vault 3 clerk, but she has no right to tell me how to do my job.
4 And that's the answer to your question.
5 0 Do you recall whether you became abusive to --
6 A Abusive?
7 Damn right I did. It's not her job to tell me how 8 to do mine. She's not nothing but a clerk. She's a 9 go-for. She gets it, and she's not going to tell me how 10 to do my work. None of them do.
11 JUDGE GDOSSMAN : Okay. Mr. Rolan, I think 12 you've completed _Le answer.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 A (Continuing. ) Yes, I became abusive to her.
15 JUDGE GEOSSMAN: Okay, fine.
i 16 Does that complete this line?
17 MS. KEZELIS: Almost, almost.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
19 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
20 Q You testified, Mr. Rolan, that the vault clerks would 21 lose your documents. ,
22 Do you recall making a statement like that?
23 A Yeah -- I would'n' t like. to say the word " lose. " How 24 about " misplace" or "misfile" or -- they can' t find it.
25 Q Okay. ,
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1 And then they would come to you and ask you --
2 A And blame me, yes.
3' Q All right.
4 To the best of your knowledge, were any such 5 documents eventually located?
6 A Oh, yeah. They usually find them at some time or 7 another.
8 0 And the individual that you referred to as "Miss Byer" 9 -- would her name have been Sally Campbell? Would that 10 have been her name?
11 A That's it, that's it, okay. I couldn't remember what 12 her name was. That's the girl, though.
( 13 Q You recall receiving a warning regarding that incident 14 as well?
15 A Yes. They told me I was picking on her. That's the 16 girl -- she had went out in the building like maybe a 17 couple times and got like Level I and --
18 Q Mr. Rolan --
19 A Okay.
20 0 -- I'm going to ask you to answer the questions.
21 ,
A Okay. I answered it.
22 Q When a question is f ramed -- and I may not always do so 23 -- but when I f rame a question that can be answered in a 24 "yes" or "no" f ashion, I'm going to ask that you do so, 25 okay?
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1 A Okay.
2 0 Thank you.
3 Did Miss Campbell ask you any questions regarding 4 document corrections during that incident?
5 A Document what?
6 Q Corrections.
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right.
9 What did she say to you, if anything, regarding 10 document corrections?
11 A She tried to insinuate that I mismarked the various 12 types of installations.
13 Q All right.
l 14 And you disagreed with her; is that correct?
15 A I was there.
16 Q All right.
17 And that was what then precipitated into the 18 incident between you and Miss Campbell; is that correct?
/
19 A Yeah.
20 0 Okay.
21 Other than the incident with respect to the welder 22 and with respect to Miss Campbell, do you recall. any 23 other incidents in which you had picked on personnel --
24 A I don' t pick on them.
25 Q All right.
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1 A I don' t think I pick on them. You know, they start with ;
2 me, and I let them have it.
3 Q All 'right.
4 Do you recall any other incident in which you 5 became abusive with another person?
6 A Did I become abusive?
7 Q Yes, sir.
8 A Did they become abusive with me?
9 Q Mr. Rolan --
10 A ch, okay.
11 Q -- I'm asking the questions.
12 Do you recall any other incident in which you 13 became abusive of another person on the site?
14 A Rick Martin punched me in the head once.
15 Q All right.
16 Were you abusive with respect to Mr. Martin?
17 A Was I abusive?
18 Q Yes, sir.
19 A Well, let's put it th,is way: He was -- it's a --
20 everybody was abusive to Mr. Martin. He was like --
21 Q Mr. Rolan, were you abusive to Mr. Martin?
22 A Was I abusive?
23 In my thinking, no, in his thinking, yes.
24 Q All right.
25 Mr. Martin, to the best of your understanding, f elt Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 abused by you?
2 A At that time I -- I guess you could say that.
3 At this time, no. We get along fine. He's a nice 4 kid.
5 Q All right.
6 Within a few months prior to the removal -- your 7 removal as Lead, do you recall receiving any other 8 warnings regarding your conduct on the site?
.9 A I give up.
10 Q All right.
11 Is the answer "yes" or "no"?
12 A No.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You don't recall?
14 MS. KEZELIS: You don't recall, okay.
15 I'd like to have the next two documents marked as 16 Applicant's Exhibits --
17 MR. BERRY: 43 and 44.
18 MR. GUILD: May I suggest a brief recess?
19 BUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
20 MR. GUILD: Could I suggest a brief recess?
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:- Yes. Why don' t we take a 22 brief recess now.
23 (WHEREU PON , a recess was had, after which 24 the proceedings were resumed as follows:)
25
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1 have a matter of housekeeping.
2 With regard to Friday's transcript, we have now 3 given to the Reporter the expurgated version that ought 4 to be sent as the official transcript to the secretary 5 of the NRC.
6 In addition, we have the unexpurgated five pages --
7 that is, Pages 4204, 4205, 4206, 4210 and 4213 -- which 8 will constitute an in-camera portion of the transcript 9 that ought to also go to the secretary but have marked 10 on it "in camera."
11 THE NOTARY: Okay.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We would also ask that the 13 Reporter make copies of the in-camera version, which 14 indicates irc brackets what was deleted f rom the version 15 that's not in camera going to the secretary.
16 In other words, the parties and the Board haven't 17 received copies of the in-camera document yet, and 18 that's all we'll need f rom the Reporter, then.
19 THE NOTARY: Okay.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Now we'll continue with the 21 witness.
22 Now, let me ask, Miss Kezelis, first whether 23 there's any need to go into these other incidents.
24 The one that appears to have been brought to the 25 NRC's attention has been thoroughly explored. We've
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1 gotten some background into the relationship.
- 2 Is this overkill we have or are you anticipating 3 that these other incidents will be brought up on cross 4 examination?
5 I'm not sure whether we have a purpose to this now.
6 MS. KEZELIS: No, your Honor. I believe I've 7 pretty well exhausted any examination I have regarding 8 the incidents.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, okay. Maybe I should 10 have asked you that an hour ago.
11 That's fine. So why don't you then complete your 12 examination.
13 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge Grossman.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Mr. Rolan, shortly bef ore the break, you testified to 16 the effect that Mr. Rick Martin felt that everybody 17 picked on him.
18 Do you recall making a statement along those lines?
19 JUDGE GROSSNEN: I believe the statement was 20 that everybody does pick on Rick Martin; not that he 21 felt that everybody did.
22 MS. KEZELIS: That's fine. I'm certainly not 23 suggesting that I wrote this down accurately.
i 24 BY MS. KEZELIS:
25 Q Do you recall making a statement along the lines of l
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1 everybody picking on Mr. Martin, then?
2 A Your line of questioning prior to the break, to me, has 3 nothing to do w'ith why we are here. Why --
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay --
5 A (Continuing. ) Why the vault personnel are even brought 6 up is irrelevant. Why Mr. Martin is brought up is 7 irrelevant.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, it's not for you 9 to decide what is relevant or not. Just answer the 10 questions the best you can, and we'll decide in the 11 final analysis whether it's relevant or not.
12 Okay. Now you have a pendina question with regard 13 to what it was you indicated about Mr. Martin being 14 picked on, whether you indicated that he actually was 15 picked on by a lot of people or he thought that he was 16 being picked on.
17 What was it that you indicated?
18 THE WITNESS : Do I get to complete the entire 19 question -- or the entire answer?
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes, to the extent that it's 21 responsive to the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 As f ar as I'm concerned, we live in the United 24 States, and part of our Constitution says f reedom of 25 religion; right? Okay. Freedom of religion also means
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1 freedom from religion.
2 Mr. Martin, when he first started working at 3 Comstock several years ago, was a fanatical Baptist. It 4 was like if you looked at him wrong, he pulled out his 5 Bible and he was like reading this stuff to you.
6 I mean, we' re a bunch of construction workers going 7 from job to job, you know, and everybody uses 8 four-letter words. Everybody does.
9 You go out on -- on your weekend and you come in 10 and say, " Hey, what did you do over the weekend?" You 11 talk about what you did with your girlf riend and you 12 drank 20 beers and all this stuff.
O 13 This guy would pull out his Bible, and he'd.be i 14 preaching to us about, you know, God and adultery and 15 dr un kenness. If you'd use a four-letter word, he'd 16 start singing religious songs at the top of his lungs.
17 It became like, " Wow, this guy is a bozo. " That's how 18 this guy was. He used to be incredibly way off on the 19 deep end.
20 Okay. Now, you can say people picked on him. I 21 mean, this guy was kind of -- I mean, not the typical 22 construction worker, okay.
23 You can say yeah, they picked on him.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
{} -25 So there was a certain amount of antagonism between i
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1 him and the other workers because of his proselytizing; .
2 is that it?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, he tended to bring a lot 4 of it on himself, though.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
6 THE WITNESS: I mean --
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think that --
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- answers the question.
10 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, it does.
11 BY MS. KEZELIS:
12 Q Do you recall the specifics of the incident in which Mr.
13 Martin struck you?
14 A He became -- I was with another f riend, and he was like 15 way down at the other end of the room. Me and my buddy 16 were talking about some female, and he became like 17 obsessed. I was like, you know, "You don't got to 18 listen to it," you know. " Leave." He became 19 increasingly obsessive.
20' To make a long story short, he punched me in the 21 head. I said, "If you' ve got a problem, go talk to our 22 manager." Because I was talking to my friend and et 23 cetera, they said I was picking on him -- or I provoked 24 him. So they wrote me up because I talked about females 25 to my other buddy and it offended him.
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1 Q All right.
2 You received a reprimand for that incident, didn't 3 you?
4 A Yeah. They wrote me up because he punched me in the 5 head.
6 (Laughter.)
7 Q You just testified that you may have provoked him.
8 Do you recall using the word " provoked"?
9 A If you call talking to another f riend about f emales and 10 pa r tying, I guess I provoked him; right?
11 I mean, he was the religious f anatic. Whatever you 12 want to say; you can say I provoked him.
13 Q Mr. Martin received a written warning, didn't he, for 14 that incident?
15 A Yeah, the same thing.
16 Q Do you recall approximately when that took place?'
17 A Balf of forever ago.
18 (Laughter.)
19 Q It was before 1983, was it not, when Mr. DeWald came 20 on-site as the QC Manager?
21 A A long time ago.
22 Q All right.
23 It was before that time; is that correct?
24 A Yeah.
25 0 All right.
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O 1 Do you recall who gave you the warning?
2 A Bob B rown.
3 Q All right.
4 And what was Mr. Brown's position at that time?
5 A He was the QC Manager.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Now, do I get to ad lib anything else here?
8 Q Mr. Rolan, is there anything about this incident that 9 you have not already testified about?
10 A Well, you' re not saying anything about him destroying my 11 personal property or anything like that; right?
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, did that happen?
i O 13 TH E WITN ESS : Yeah.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Are you ref erring to Mr. Martin, Mr. Rolan?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q All right.
18 What type of personal property did Mr. Martin 19 destroy?
20 A Well, what it was was me and two women. other 21 inspectors, sat in the back of the room, and I had these 22 women who were unclothed, righ t, on my desk. But you 23 really couldn't see them, except for the two girls and 24 me. You had to come back to my desk to see it.
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1 else jacking with him, and he came back to my area and 2 ripped them all down. I'm like -- I didn' t say nothing 3 to him. I didn't do nothing. They didn' t do nothing.
4 But as f ar as I'm concerned, that's my personal 5 proper ty . What right does he have to destroy my stuff ?
6 If anybody had the right to be offended, it would 7 be the two women that I was working with, who could see 8 it, and they didn't care.
9 Q That was the " personal property" you were ref erring to?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Do you recall when that incident took place?
12 A Oh, I complained to Mr. DeWald.
() 13 Q Okay.
14 So it was --
15 A All he said was, "I took him outside and had a talk with 16 him," and that was it, you know.
17 Q Your understanding was that Mr. DeWald had a talk with 18 Mr. Martin about destroying your --
t 19 A Yeah.
20 0 -- pornography; is that right?
21 A It's not porncgraphy.
22 Q They were nude pictures; is that correct?
23 A From the waist up, yes.
24 Q That's fine.
25 Another thing you testified about shortly before
[}
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1 the break, Mr. Rolan, was a statement to the effect 2 that, I believe, Mr. Saklak had " jacked with" Seeders or 3 words to that effect.
4 Do you recall making a statement --
5 A Yeah.
6 0 -- along those lines?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q All right.
9 What did you have in mind when you made that 10 statement, Mr. Rolan?
11 A Oh, it's just natural, common knowledge.
12 You' re saying I don't know what it is; right?
~
13 Q Mr. Rolan, would you please describe f or the record what 14 you had in mind when you made the statement that Mr.
15 Saklak had " jacked with" Mr. Seeders?
16 A It means that he comes around and bothers people; you 17 know, "What are you doing?"
18 I think we went through this earlier, the same type 19 of -- you know, "What are you doing," you know, or -- et 20 cetera.
21 I'm sure all the NRC personnel read what Mr.
22 Seeders had to say; right?
23 I was not exactly involved in what happened.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, Mr. Rolan, we're just j 25 trying to find out exactly what you personally know I l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l Geneva, Illinois 6U134 I (312) 232-0262
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1 about what happened.
2 THE WITN ESS : Okay.
3 Well, that's all I -- all I know is what I've been 4 told.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
6 You didn't have any personal knowledge of this 7 relationship or what happened?
8 TH E WITNESS : No.
9 See, Rick Martin -- or Rick Saklak just has a -- a 10 knack for, you know, going around and jacking with 11 people.
12 . JUDGE GROSSMAN: But as far as actual 13 incidents between Mr. Saklak --
14 TH E WITN ESS : And John =
Seeders?
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- and John Seeders, you 16 didn't personally observe that?
17 THE WITNESS : Well, other than a violent i
18 outburst or something like that, you know -- he'd vell 19 and scream at people, you know.
20 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
i 21 Q Mr. Rolan, did you at any time observe Mr. Saklak 22 yelling or screaming at Mr. Seeders? j I
23 A (No response.) i 24 Q You personally, sir.
25 A I can't say I've actually seen John Seeders; but if you O
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O 1 ask a f ew different names, you'd probably get them.
2 0 My question right now to you, si r , i s -- 1 1
3 A No.
4 Q All right.
5 Your answer is no --
l 6 A No. I 7 0 -- you never personally observed any incident between 8 Mr. Saklak and Mr. Seeders; is that correct?
9 A No.
10 Q That is correct?
11 A Well --
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: It is correct, okay. We 13 have it.
14 fMS . KEZELIS: Thank you.
15 A (Continuing.) Well, I haven't seen him get violent 16 outbursts, you know.
l 17 BY MS. KEZ ELIS :
18 0 When you said " violent outbarsts," do you mean that you 19 did observe at any time Mr. Saklak, for example, nagging 20 Mr. Seeders?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q All right.
23 And can you recall ~ the specifics of any such i
24 observation of yours?
25 A No, I can' t remember.
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1 Q All right.
2 In response to a prior question, you mentioned, Mr.
3 Rolan, that you had observed other incidents --
4 A Yeah.
5 0 -- concerning Mr. Saklak; is that correct?
6 A Yeah, yeah.
7 Q All right.
8 Who were the other individuals that you observed 9 involved in incidents with Mr. Saklak?
10 A I've seen Mr. Saklak yell and scream and use foul 11 language to Mr. Martin. I've seen him do it to Mr.
12 Hall.
13 Q I' m sorry. To whom?
14 A Mr. Hall?
15 Q Mr. Hii?
16 A Mr. Hall.
17 Q H- A- L-L?
18 A Hall. He doesn't work here anymore.
19 I've seen him do it to Mr. Stewart; he doesn't work 20 here anymore, either. I've seen him do it to Mr.
21 Bouchou; he doesn't work here, either. I've seen him do 22 it to me.
23 He used to do this in f ront of the entire office.
24 I mean, if you want to yell at somebody, the least he 25 could do is take you in his office and shut the door.
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1 Q Let's take them one by one, Mr. Rolan.
2 What do you recall observing between Mr. Martin and 3 Mr. Saklak in the way of an outburst of Mr. Saklak's?
- 4 A I can' t remember the different details. I just know 5 that Rick was swearing at him. That's about all I know 6 -- or not Rick, but -- Rick Martin -- Rick Saklak was 7 swearing at Rick Martin.
8 0 was Mr. Martin pulling out his Bible at the time, to the 9 best of y'our recollection?
10 A Oh, he had stopped that by then.
I 11 Q He had stopped that by then?
12 A Yeah.
( 13 Q Okay.
14 What was Mr. Martin doing when Mr. Saklak yelled at 15 him, if you recall?
16 A Not much.'
17 Q Okay.
18 Do you recall why -- what your understanding was of 19 why Mr. Saklak was yelling at Mr. Martin?
20 A No.
21 Q When you said that Mr. Martin wasn't doing much, did you 22 mean that Mr. Martin wasn' t working at the time or 23 -
wasn't occupied with work?
24 A What was the question again?
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1 when Mr. Saklak yelled at him.
2 A Oh, you mean when -- you mean when Mr. Saklak was 3 yelling at him?
4 0 Yes, sir.
5 A No. 'He was just standing there. He wasn't yelling back 6 or anything like that.
7 Q Do you recall the substance of what Mr. Saklak said?
8 A No. You asked that question already.
9 Q Have I exhausted your recollection about that incident?
10 A Yeah, you have.
11 Q Do you recall when it took place?
12 A No.
13 Q Another individual you mentioned was Mr. Hall; is that j 14 correct?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Mr. Hall voluntarily quit, didn' t he?
17 A Yes. I think he moved to Bay City, Texas.
18 Q All right.
19 And do you recall the specifics of the incident _
20 . that you had in mind?
21 A No. I just remember that he used to have vendettas 22 against him -- Mr. Saklak used to have vendettas.
23 The funny thing about this was at one time -- at 24 one time bef ore Mr. Saklak came upstairs, there was a 25 time when Mr. Hall was indeed doing everything that Mr.
l l
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1 Saklak was and doing a much better job.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Again, Miss Kezelis, why did 3 we get int'o this topic now?
4 If we had just this one incident that was in the 5 report that apparently you' re trying to explore, why are 6 we exploring other matters that you' re only bringing 7 into the proceeding?
8 If you anticipate someone else will bring them in, 9 that's another thing.
10 MS. KEZELIS: I was forced into the position 11 of inquiring about them because Mr. Rolan lef t dangling
~
12 the statement that he had observed other incidents.
13 So I'm merely attempting to determine whether he 14 had any specific knowledge of those incidents, and then 15 I'm going to move on.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But it is such an innocuous 17 statement at this point, but then you go and you explore 18 it ad infinitum.
19 It's just not profitable because we don't have any 20 of those other incidents in issue here. ,
21 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, in f act, we do.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN : Were you going to bring up 23 those other incidents, Mr. Guild?
24 MR. GUILD: Our position is Mr. Saklak did 25 not do it in one isolated instance or two isolated Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 instances or three isolated instances. In fact, Mr.
2 Rolan will not be the last inspector --
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let me ask you, Mr. Guild:
4 Were you going to bring these incidents out through Mr. ,
5 Rolan?
6 MR. GUILD: I would have asked him the same 7 general question that counsel apparently asked that 8 opened the door, and that is if he had knowledge of 9 other incidents involving Mr. Saklak.
10 MS. KEZELIS: That's not the question that 11 opened the door. I asked what specific knowledge he had 12 about Mr. Seeders.
( 13 MR. GUILD: Then indeed I would have asked 14 that question. If I misinterpreted counsel's opening 15 remark, I would have asked, "What knowledge do you have 16 of Mr. Saklak and his abusive behavior toward 17 inspectors?"
18 JUDG E GROSSMAN : Well, I think, Miss Kezelis, 19 that I prefer to have Mr. Guild open the door than you 20 open the door here. If he's going to bring them up, 21 then you have a right to ask rebuttal on that.
22 But I don' t think we' re going to sit here for the 23 testimony that's in anticipation of this being brought 24 up when it may not come in at all.
l 25 MS. KEZ ELIS :
That's understood, Judge O
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1 Grossman. All right.
2 BY MS. KEZELIS:
3 Q One of the other statements that you made, Mr. Rolan, 4 before we took the break, was something to the effect 5 that when you were right, you yelled right back at Mr.
6 Saklak.
7 Do you recall making such a statement?
8 A In the incident that -- to answer your question, yes, I 9 did yell back at him.
10 Q All right.
11 And you had testified that when you were right, you 12 yelled back at him.
13 Do you recall saying that?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 0 Okay.
16 Were there instances when Mr. Saklak yelled at you 17 and he was right?
18 A That's irrelevant because he doesn't have the right to 19 yell and scream at us, because we're doing our job.
20 Right or wrong?
21 Q Mr. Rolan, you didn't answer my question.
22 A Okay.
- 23 0 I realize it may not be an easy question for you to 24 answer, but I'm going to ask you to answer it anyway.
25 Were there instances when Mr. Saklak yelled at you O
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1 when Mr. Saklak was right and you had been wrong?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Might there have been instances?
4 A Could be.
5 Q Mr. Rolan, is it your testimony that Mr. Saklak was 6 always wrong when he yelled at you?
7 A Now you' re twisting -- your line of questioning again is 8 beginning to annoy me.
9 MR. BERRY: I didn' t hear the witness.
10 A (Continuing. ) You know, I wouldn't say he was always 11 righ t. I wouldn' t say I'm always right, but I wasn't 12 always wrong, either.
13 I mean, the area he was supervisor in -- we had to 14 train him because he didn't know how to do it. We
- 15 trained him. He became our supervisor before he knew 16 what to do. We showed him what to do.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, I think you' re 18 going f ar beyond the question.
19 MS. KEZELIS: I think the witness answered my i
20 question, Judge Grossman.
21 JUDGE COLE: He answered the question.
22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Mr. Rolan, other than what you' ve testified about --
24 well, strike that.
25 Mr. Rolan, you have already testified that, in O
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l eff ect, your relationship with Mr. Saklak was not 2 cordial; wouldn' t that be correct?
3 A We were usually civil to each other, but I tended to, 4 you know -- I didn't say, "Hi, how are you doing," or 5 anything like that casual. I didn't say nothing to him 6 if he didn't say nothing to me.
7 Q You usually kept your distance; would that be a f air 8 statement?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right.
11 Other than the -- I'll try that again.
12 How, if at all, did your relationship with Mr.
13 Saklak affect the quality of your own performance as a 14 ' QC Inspector?
15 A How did it affect it?
16 Q Yes, sir.
17 A I wouldn' t say it did.
18 Q It did not affect the quality of your performance?
19 A I wouldn' t say so.
20 Q All right.
21 A He doesn' t sign it off. He didn' t know where I was 22 going. He doesn't know what I'm looking at.
23 MS. KEZELIS: Can we go off the record for a 24 moment?
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Off the record.
[
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1 (There followed a discussion outside the 2 record.)
3 JUDGE GROSSNEN: Back on the record.
4 We'll take a luncheon break until 1:00 o' clock.
5 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was continued to 6 the hour of 1:00 o' clock P.. M.)
7 8
9 10 11 12
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1 ' JUDGE GROSSMAN: The hearing is reconvened.
2 Miss Kezelis.
3 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge Grossman.
4 BY MS. KEZELIS:
5 Q Mr. Rolan, I recognize that during the course of this 6 morning's proceeding we've touched upon some difficult 7 topics and some topics which you may be sensitive about, 8 specifically warnings that you have received and 9 incidents you have experienced with craft and with the 4 10 document control clerk; is that correct?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q All right. In addition to having written warnings or
() 13 oral warnings which you may have received during the 14 course of your employment by Comstock at Braidwood, 15 you've also received commendations for your performance 16 as an inspecter, have you not?
17 A Yeah, I have.
18 Q And it's true, is it not, that you have received 19 commendations for your performance from both Mr. DeWald 20 and Mr. Saklak?
21 A At least one.
22 Q At least one from each of them; isn't that correct?
23 A There are many more. You just won't find them.
24 Q All right. You have received more than one from each of
{) 25 them; is that correct?
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1 A Oh, yeah.
2 MS. KEZELIS: All right. I'd like to have 3 the Court Reporter mark this as Applicant's Exhibit No.
4 41 for identification.
5 (Indicating.)
6 (The document was thereupon marked 7 Applicant's Exhibit No. 41 for 8 identification as of June 18, 1986.)
9 BY MS. KEZELIS:
i 10 Q Mr. Rolan, you have before you what the Court Reporter 11 has marked as Applicant's Exhibit No. 41.
12 And for the record, that is a memorandum from Mr.
O 13 Saklak to Mr. DeWald, dated October 17, 1984, and it 14 refers to you, among other QC Inspectors; is that 15 correct?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q All right. And directing your attention to the end of 18 the first paragraph on that document, it reflects 19 that -- and I'm quoting just a portion - "Above all, 20 maintain a professional attitude."
21 Do you see those words at the bottom of the first '
22 paragraph of that document, sir?
23 A Where are you at --
24 Q The very --
25 A -- where are you at?
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4743 1 Q The very bottom of the first paragraph, the last line.
2 A It says, "And above all, maintain a professional 3 attitude."
4 Q That's right. That's what I was just quoting. Okay.
5 And it's true, is it not, that you maintained a 6 professional attitude in your inspections?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q All right. And would it be fair to say that a 9 professional attitude would include performing 10 inspections in accordance with all requisite NRC 11 criteria and Comstock procedures?
12 A Yeah.
O 13 Q Okay. And in addition to at least this commendation 14 from Mr. Saklak, you had also been characterized by Mr.
15 DeWald as an exceptional inspector; isn't that cprrect?
16 A By more than just him.
17 Q All right. In addition to Mr. DeWald and Mr. Saklak, 18 who else has commended you for your competence as an 19 inspector?
20 A Robert Roth, Tom -- Tom McCorgran.
21 Of course, you won't find a letter from them.
22 Q All right.
l 23 A They are gone. -
i 24 Q All right. And it's true, is it not, Mr. Rolan, that 25 regardless of the warnings or commendations that you l
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1 have received over the course of your employment by 2 Comstock at Braidwood, that you, nevertheless, have 3 performed your inspections to the best of your ability:
4 and in accordance'vith NRC criteria and Comstock
~5 procedures? ,
6 , A Yeah.
7 Q And you take pride in your work, don't you? -
8 A Oh, very much so.
9 If it's wrong, it's wrong; if it's right, it's 10 right.
11 Q All right, all right.
12 Let me direct your attention momentarily to the O 13 , visit to the NRC on March 29, 1985.'
14 And do.you recall that at one point, Mr. Herschel-15 Stout asked for a show of hands regarding a particular 16 question? Do you recall that incident?
17 A I remember -- I remember that other inspectors were 18 implying they were directing quantity over quality a 19 lot.
20 (Indicating.)
21 And like I mentioned earlier, I don,'t -- I don't 22 have a quality control problem. I just have a problem 23 with Mr. Saklak, period, cut and' dried, 24 (Indicating.)
25 Okay. In other words, then, your concern, with respect
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l 1 to working conditions at Comstock, when you went to the 2 NRC in March of 1985, dealt with Mr. Saklak; is that 3 correct?
4 A Yes. I have like the attitude of, " Issue my work, get 1 5 me my work. I'll do whatever you need to do, but leave 6 me alone. If I have a problem, I will come and ask you, 7 but I expect an answer," and that's all I ask.
8 (Indicating.)
9 Q Okay. Let's turn back to March 29, 1985.
10 You recall, don't you, that Mr. Stout specifically 11 asked for a show of hands about inspector productivity 12 overriding the quality of inspections?
O 13 MR. GUILD: Obj ection.
- 14 The witness was asked that identical question and 15 said he did not recall the identity of the person who
' 16 called for a show of hands or answered to that effect.
17 A No, I don't remember.
18 MS. KEZELIS: That's fine.
19 BY MS. KEZELIS:
20 Q Do you recall that one of the QC Inspectors present on I
i 21 that date asked for a show of hands regarding words to 22 that effect?
! 23 A Not really, but -- I don't remember.
24 (Indicating.)
25 All right. You don't really recall whether or not
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1 people raised their hand; is that your testimony?
2 A (Indicating.)
3 Q No?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q I realize it's more than a year ago, so it's quite some 6 time ago.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you feel -- well, your testimony is that you didn't 9 feel that there was such a concern; isn't that correct?
10 A Well, my personal --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
12 A (Continuing . ) -- opinion --
0 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, how many times 14 do we have to get the same answer?
15 He indicated his sole concern was with Mr. Saklak 16 and not with that particular production over quality.
17 I believe he said that.
18 MS. KEZELIS: That's fine.
19 I wasn't entirely cor.vinced that the record would 20 reflect the substance.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Did you say that, in 22 fact?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, as far as quality is 24 concerned, all accusations that any other inspector at
(} 25 that meeting made were concerning quality.
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1 i don't have that problem. If you have a problem, 2 show me your problem. I don't believe that's a problem.
3 I have my problem with Rick Saklak, period.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
5 BY MS. KEZELIS:
6 Q You understand, do you not, Mr. Rolan, that Mr. Saklak 7 is no longer employed by comstock; correct?
8 A About time.
9 Q All right. And that his employment was terminated 10 shortly after the Snyder incident in April of 1985?
11 A I'm surprised it took that long.
12 Q All right. In your opinion, did your quality of working O 13 conditions change in any respect when Mr. Saklak's 14 employment ceased?
15 A Oh, yes, very much so.
16 Q All right. In what respect? -
17 A The department ran much smoother, much less conflict 18 amongst each other. You know, it was like -- it was a 19 lot less tension, very much so.
20 (Indicating . )
i 21 'Q Did you say much more conflict, Mr. Rolan, or much less?
22 A Much less.
23 Q Immediately prior to March 29, 1985, where physically 24 was Mr. Saklak generally situated in the offices? Can 25 you describe for us physically?
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1 A Where did he sit?
2 Q Yes, sir.
3 A Let's see. He sat -- he sat in the main office in kind 4 of like in the center of the room outside of what would 5 have been at that time the Quality Assurance Office.
6 Q Okay. He didn't -- he didn't have his own office, did 7 he?
8 A No. He had a desk out -- out in the main room.
9 Q Okay. And some time before that, Comstock had 10 experienced a fire; isn't that correct?
11 A That was before then, yes.
0 12 Q Right.
O 13 The fire was some time in 1984, is that correct, to 14 the best of your recollection?
15 A Yes, I guess.
16 Q All right. Where was Mr. Saklak sitting in the offices 17 after the fire, if you recall?
18 A (No response.).
- 19 Q You don't recall?
l 20 A I can't remember.
21 Q Okay. Was he sitting in with the QC Inspectors during 22- that time period?
23 A I guess so. I'm not sure.
24 (Indicating.)
25 Q Okay. In order to refresh your recollection briefly
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1 about this topic, you recall a time when the seating 2 arrangements for QC Inspectors were crowded -- crowded 3 and congested after the fire, don't you?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Okay. And what was the general atmosphere in the office 6 during that time period as you observed it?
7 A The same as always, I guess.
8 They moved -- they moved all the management out in 9 a trailer except for him, I believe --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- and at that time -- oh, never mind.
12 Q No. You hadn't completed your answer.
O 13 Go ahead and complete it.
14 A At that time I specifically remember there was a little 15 war goipg on, and I requested, from Irv DeWald, transfer 16 out from underneath Rick Saklak, because Rick Saklak had 17 that little war going on between Larry Seese and -- see, 18 my wife used to work for Larry Seese; right. Okay. I 19 told you that 20 And she was in charge of data for Larry Seese. You 21 know, she maintained all the records of all the reports 22 that came in, how mu;y were done, how many needed to be 23 done, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
24 Well, Rick and Larry Seese had this little war 25 going on, and I didn't want to be a pawn in the middle
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1 of this crap, because as far as I'm concerned, you know, 2 one of the smartest people up in that office was Tonja, 3 and when she left, they lost, you know, the brains of 4 the place; but that's irrelevant.
5 They were having this little war amongst 6 themselves, and I asked to be transferred from under his 7 direction -- ,
8 Q Okay.
9 A -- and DeWald refused to acknowledge that problem, so I 10 just kind of faded in the background.
11 I do remember that little war going on.
12 (Indicating.)
O 13 Q During the time period that the management, as you 14 testified earlier, was moved out into another 15 location --
16 A A trailer.
17 Q All right.
18 -- did you have occasion to observe the QC 19 Inspectors in the trailer itself?
20 A In the trailer itself?
21 Q In the office.
22 I'm sorry.
23 A Yes.
24 0 What was the general atmosphere during the time period I
[} 25 that there was no management in the office?
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1 A I don't know.
2 Q All right. Let me ask you this:
3 Did you have occasion to observe any QC Inspectors 4 goofing off --
5 A Goofing off?
6 0 -- or playing?
7 Yes, sir.
8 A What?
9 Q Goofing off or playing.
10 A Yeah. I mean, why should that day be different than any 11 other day?
12 You go out there now, somebody is going to. You O 13 know, it's common. It's the American way. Somebody 14 goofs off some part of the day. Everybody does. You 15 do.
~
16 (Indicating.)
17 Q In other words, then, your testimony, Mr. Rolan, is <
18 that --
19 A Yeah, everybody does a little bit.
20 0 -- you've had occasion to observe QC Inspectors goofing 21 off, and that that practice is still observed by you 22 today; is that correct?
23 A It's the American way. Everybody does it; face it.
24 (Indicating.)
{}
25 Q Mr. Rolan --
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1 A Yes.
2 0 -- when you perform an inspection, you fill out the 3 requisite information on that inspection checklist and 4 then you sign that form; isn't that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right. What goes through your mind when you sign 7 that inspection checklist in the course of performance 8 of your duties?
9 A Make sure that all items that the questions are listed 10 have been checked --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- and are in minimum guidance of our procedure --
() 13 Q Okay. And --
14 A -- meet the minimum requirements.
15 Q And when you complete an inspection and sign your name 16 on that dotted line, you understand, don't you, that 17 that means that you, as a person executing that form, is 18 accepting the quality of that work or is rejecting the 19 quality of that work based on your --
20 A Oh, yeah. .
21 0 -- experience and judgment; is that correct?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q All right. And that's your philosophy with respect to l 24 performing inspections; isn't that correct?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q All right. Have you had occasion to observe whether or 2 not your fellow QC Inspectors, in your opinion, share a 3 similar philosophy?
4 A When they sign it off, they believe it's good?
5 Q Yes, sir.
6 A Yes.
7 MS. KEZELIS: I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, you may examine.
9 MR. GUILD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. GUILD:
12 Q Mr. Rolan, we've met at your deposition. Bob Guild is O 13 ma name and I'm the attorney for the Intervenors.
14 You had an opportunity, during the course of your 15 employment at Comstock, to observe the management of the 16 Quality Control Department, didn't you?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And specifically you had an opportunity to observe the 19 management of the QC Department by Irv DeWald, present 20 Quality Control Manager?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Could you describe for the record Mr. DeWald's 23 relationship with the Level 2 Quality Control Inspectors 24 that you observed?
l 25 A Now?
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1 Q Well, at the time that he was in the position as QC 2 manager, before Mr. Seltmann took over direction of the
, 3 department.
4 A When Mr. DeWald was our manager -- I mean, to make it 5 nicely, he's not much of a manager. He's -- he's a 6 sailor from way back when, retired sailor.
7 Q Retired Navy man?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay.
i 10 A Typical.
11 Okay. He had no respect from any inspector 12 whatsoever, none, because he refused to stand up for O 13 anybody.
14 If,you asked a question, because you didn't 15 understand it of could not find something, and you 16 needed an answer, you would never get it.
17 So, you know, after awhile, it's like, " Heck with
- 18 you." Nobody bothered to say anything.
4 19 You know, if there was ever a problem -- you know, 20 Commonwealth Edison come over or craft personnel or 21 construction engineer saying, " Hey, what about this" --
i 22 you know, it's always the inspector. It's never, "Let 23 me check all the facts and get back with you."
24 You know, it used to be on the other jobs you 25 worked on, you know, the manager would say, " Yeah, let
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1 me check this out, and I'll go and check"; and if you 2 were wrong, you know, he would take you in his office 3 and shut the door and ream your butt out.
4 Okay. So you were wrong, you screwed up, but you 5 didn't go and say the inspector screwed up right in 6 front of everybody.
7 I mean, it used to be the quality control 8 management, none -- they would back you up to the hilt.
9 You know, here it's like the inspector screwed up.
l 10 You know, it's never -- they never stand behind us.
11 Q Did Mr. DeWald encourage inspectors to come to see him 12 in his office if they had concerns or problems?
i O 13 A No.
14 0 Did inspectors, to your knowledge, as a matter of 15 routine, bring their problems to Mr. DeWald?
16 A No.
17 Q Did Mr. DeWald converse with inspectors outside the
- 18 office to ask them about how their work was going and if
! 19 they had concerns?
20 A Very, very, very, very, very, very little.
21 -Q Did Mr. DeWald --
22 A Maybe --
23 Q I'm sorry.
i 24 Did you complete your' answer?
1
(} 25 A Maybe once or twice a year, something like that.
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l 1 Q Did you observe Mr. DeWald engaging in casual j 2 conversation with inspectors, asking them how they were, l
j 3 saying good morning, speak to them about non-work
! 4 matters, just making polite conversation?
5 A Maybe -- I might have heard rumors that he said good 6 morning to somebody once every six months or something 7 like that.
I
,8 Q As a matter of course, did you observe Mr..DeWald even 9 saying good morning to inspectors when he saw them in
- l l 10 the hall? i 11 A Very slim. 1 12 Q Did Mr. DeWald, in essence, stay in his office and not
()
i 13 communicate with his inspectors?
14 A This is true.
15 0 Mr. DeWald, for a period of time, would conduct weekly 16 meetings, gene'.a1 meetings of inspectors?
17 A Yes, this is true; on Friday afternoons.
l i 18 Q And you particip'ated in those meetings?
, 19 A Everybody did.
I 20 0 All right. In that time, Mr. DeWald obviously spoke to 21 his inspectors, did he not?
22 A Yes. It was like there are little things they would 23 tell us they wanted or whatever.
24 Q Did Mr. DeWald compliment his inspectors, in those -- in 25 those weekly meetings, for a good job done, if --
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1 A No. I can honestly say I don't remember DeWald ever
- 2 giving us a letter saying, "Hi. Keep up the good work,"
l 3 or anything like that.
4 Now, Mr. Seltmann, yes.
5 Q All right.
6 A DeWald, no.
7 Q Well, aside from letters, did you ever hear Mr. DeWald, 8 at these weekly meetings, compliment the inspection 9 force for a good job done?
10 A No.
)
11 Q Did you ever hear Mr. DeWald, at these weekly meetings, f 12 talk about inspection production quotas?
O 13 A Yes.
14 Q And can you recall when you heard Mr. DeWald speak about l 15 those quotas?
! 16 A I couldn't give you the exact date, but I believe they 17 had a -- there was a period of time where they were i 18 going for a quota system, and they wanted so many done 19 per day or whatever, and that didn't last too long l 20 because it doesn't work.
21 (Indicating . )
22 Q Now, you used -- made a gesture when you answered that
) 23 question --
24 A Yeah.
25 Q -- I understood to be put marks around the quota system;
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, 1 right?
2 A Right.
3 They expected like so many hangers a day out of i
4 every person, and that isn't logical, because sometimes !
5 you are in an easy area and it's easy to get all 10 of 1
6 your hangers on the day they want.
7 Let's say they want 10. It might be easy to get i
j 8 them out; and then another day, there would be hangers 9 over here, it would take you 2 weeks to do 1 hanger.
1 10 It's not feasible --
11 (Indicating.) i
- 12 Q Let me interrupt you.
i
! () 13 When you used the gesture quotes marks around quota 14 system --
15 A Yeah.
16 0 -- were you defining the quota system as you just 17 answered, a certain number of inspections per day?
18 A Yes, yes.
I 19 Q And is that your understanding of what Mr. DeWald was i
20 describing in these meetings as a quota system?
- 21 MS. KEZELIS
- Objection --
i 22 A Yeah --
l 23 MS. KEZELIS: -- to the form of the question.
j 24 I don't believe the witness --
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Overruled.
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1 A (Continuing.) -- but --
2 MR. GUILD: Yes, complete your answer, please.
3 A (Continuing.) -- they tried that deal, and it didn't 4 work --
5 MR. GOILD: All right.
6 A (Continuing.) -- because in all reality, Mr. DeWald, as 7 much as I don't like the man, is still the manager; was 8 in his way trying to say, "I'm trying to get a dollar's 9 worth of work for a dollar's pay," you know.
10 BY MR. GUILD:
11 Q All right. You don't have any objection to that, do 12 you?
O 13 A Oh, no, I don't, and I feel like giving a dollar's worth 14 of work for a dollar's worth of pay.
15 I'm not saying I don't screw off once in a while --
16 I do -- and everybody else does, too.
17 0 But a quota system doesn't work because the work varies 18 from job to job? One inspection is not the same as the 19 other; right?
20 A It varies from location to location, too.
21 Q And you said one factor that causes variation is 22 sometimes the installation you are to inspect is in a 23 more congested location than others; correct?
24 A Very much so.
(} 25 Q If it's in a congestion location, it takes longer than i
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1 if it's not in a congested location; correct?
9 2 A Yes.
j 3 Like, for instance, a cable pan hanger would take 4 much longer than a conduit hanger.
i 5 Q And conduit hanger is a single strap metal --
l, I
6 A Not always, but --
7 Q sometimes?
j 8 A Yes.
! 9 Q But a cable pan hanger is a more complicated piece of 10 installation?
11 A It depends, yes.
- 12 Q A cable pan hanger, then, is generally more complicated
() 13 to inspect than a conduit hanger?
l
. 14 A Yes.
) 15 Q So just saying someone's going to go out and perform X 16 number of inspections a day as a quota, without taking 17 into account the differences in inspections, would not
- I i
18 be realistic, in your opinion? l i
19 A This is true. )
20 Q Now, do you recall whether or not, at the time when you 21 understood that there was a quota system, so-called, 22 there was a backlog in Comstock inspection activity?
23 A There's always a backlog.
24 Q Do you recall a time when there was a backlog of 14,000 25 current inspections not performed?
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1 A Sure.
2 Q Do you recall that that occurred at the time Mr. DeWald i
j 3 took over as QC Manager in the fall of '837 4 A It was before then or after that?
5 Q Well, Mr. DeWald found a backlog of 14,000 inspections l 6 when he took over in the fall of '83.
7 Were you aware of that?
8 A I know we had tons and tons of work to do.
9 Q All right.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, the question is 11 whether you knew whether there was a backlog in that 12 amount at that time.
1 O 13 If the answer is no, then you can say no.
l 14 A Well, as far as I'm concerned, there's always pretty 15 much been a backlog.
16 BY MR. GUILD:
17 Q You weren't aware of that specific number, Mr. Rolan, at 18 that specific time?
19 A There's been a backlog.
20 Q Were you aware, in the summer of '84 now, following Mr.
21 DeWald's employment as the QC Manager, that Commonwealth 22 Edison Company had placed certain schedule requirements 23 on Comstock to get the backlog taken care of?
24 A I believe we completed it.
25 Do you recall being aware that -- that Edison had put
(]) Q l
\
l l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l
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1 such a schedule requirement on Comstock?
2 A I remember there was a time when there was a gentleman 3 by the name of Jim Purrazzo, I believe, who was an 4 Edison gentleman, and we came in on -- I don't know what 5 day it was, but they had -- every available body went 6 out there and just zipped them out, and we got like 200 7 hangers done in a day between the whole department, you 8 know. .
9 (Indicating.)
10 Q Was that after Mr. DeWald was on site as the QC Manager?
11 A Yes, yes.
12 O Can you recall whether that was in the summer of 1984?
O 13 A No, I don't think it was that late.
i i 14 Q Earlier than that, perhaps?
15 A Yeah. I -- I remember it was after the fire, because 16 they were rebuilding the office.
17 Q Can you recall the date of the fire, approximately?
2 18 A No.
19 Q Is_ the point in time you are speaking of when you did 20 all those hanger inspections in one day some time 21 between when Mr. DeWald came on i- the fall of '83 and 22 the summer of '84?
23 A I believe so.
24 Q All right. Did you ever hear that Mr. DeWald himself
(} 25 had performed a thousand weld inspections in a single Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 day when he was a Level 2 Weld Inspector?
2 A That's the rumor.
l 3 Q Is it your understanding that that's common belief among 4 the Quality Control Inspectors at Comstock?
5 A Yes.
1 6 Q All right. And can you identify where you first heard l 7 such a rumor or learned of such a belief?
8 A Well, first of all, it was common knowledge amongst --
9 amongst the inspectors, and then second of all, I read 10 it in the newspaper --
11 Q That doesn't count.
12 A -- and the only thing I can think about is -- do you O 13 want me to continue?
14 Q Sure. Please answer the question.
15 A Back when -- you know, when I -- when I first came here, 16 there was a time where -- see, it was pretty strange, 17 because the electricians -- they would take a piece of 18 paper, and it would say " Hanger Installation Report,"
19 period, and they would write down the drawing number and 20 they would write down the hanger and they would sign 21 their name, and that was it, period.
22 (Indicating.)
23 And you took this thing and you took a wad of 24 prints out there --
25 Q By "this thing," you mean the checklist?
[}
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1 ,
Let me interrupt you.
2 The thing you mean is the checklist, the inspection 3 checklist?
4 A The Hanger Installation Report.
5 Q Hanger Installation Report?
6 A And you take it out in the field with your procedures 7 now, and you took this wad of drawings out there and you 8 looked at that hanger until you found one in your 9 drawings to match.
- 10 It wasn't like it is now where they tell you 11 everything that they got.
12 Q All right.
) 13 A And we used to keep things in a little notebook; you 14 know, write things down in a notebook.
15 Q Personal diary?
16 A Yes, to write these things up when we got in a good 17 location, because it's kind of hard to write in stuff
- 18 when you are hanging by your ankles. l 19 Q When you say " write things up," you mean the inspection l
20 results --
i 21 A Right.
i 22 0 -- you would write on your private notebook?
- 23 A We would write these little spiral notebooks, like 24 hanger such and such, so many welds, tell the welder i
{} 25 number, da da da, details, da da da da da da da.
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
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I O
1 Q Did you observe this yourself personally when this 2 happened?
3 A We used to do it that way.
4 Now, the -- that's where I'm getting to.
5 Now, they say Irv DeWald did 500 welds a day. The 6 only thing --
7 Q A thousand was the question.
8 Do you recall?
9 A Well, whatever.
10 The only thing I can think of is he had his little 11 notebook and he went out there for like two weeks at a 12 time, and he sat down one day and wrote them up and put
() 13 the same date on them. That's the only thing I can
~
14 think of.
15 Q Was the practice, in fact, at that time as you have just 16 described, to, in effect, save up your inspection 17 results on these personal notes and then later document 18 them on an inspection report, on a checklist?
i 19 A I've seen that, yes.
20 0 All right. Is that the practice that you -- that you 21 were just describing?
22 A They don't do it now, but I've seen it before.
23 0 In the past?
24 A Oh, yeah.
{} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why do you say that's the l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 only thing you can think of that that's the way he got a 2 thousand welds in one day? What did you mean by that?
l 3 ,
THE WITNESS: Well, the only way you could do 4 a thousand welds in a day would be if they were all in a 4
5 row and they were on an assembly line and they were all 6 exactly the same. That would be the only way you could 7 do it.
8 A thousand welds is an awful lot of welds to look 9 at.
j 10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In other words, what you are 11 saying is you don't believe he could do a thousand welds 12 in one day legitimately unless he had saved them up over O 13 a period of time?
14 THE WITNESS: The only thing I can think of.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's what your 16 answer meant --
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- that that's the only way
'l 19 he could properly inspect a thousand welds, put it down 20 in one day, is if he had saved them up over a period of j i 21 time?
l 23 THE WITNESS: That's the only thing I can l 23 think of. l
- 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- Okay.
{} 25 BY MR. GUILD:
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1 Q Did, in that -- in that period of time, again, under the 4 2 older practice, did inspectors, to your knowledge, make 3 references, on the inspection checklist, to a grid 4 reference, say, for example?
5 A Yes. There -- that was even before I came.
6 Q All right.
7 A There are some bizarre checklists in the vault, that 8 entire grid, and they put zillions of welds on it.
1 9 I don't -- I don't know anything about that; not my 10 name on there.
11 They did entire grids, but I don't know what they 12 did on it.
O 13 Q Have you ever seen such checklists?
14 A Oh, yeah.
15 0 When you say they refer to zillions of welds, they would 16 refer to all components --
17 A A couple hundred, yes.
18 Q Well, let me finish the question now.
19 okay?
20 A Okay.
21 0 Make sure you are hearing the question that,I ask --
22 okay -- because I think you probably know the answer, 23 but don't anticipate, if I can ask you, please.
24 When they refer to a grid, they refer to a large
(} 25 rectangular area on a particular elevation; correct?
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 A Yeah.
2 Q All right. And they would be referring to all of the 3 components within that rectangular area --
4 A I guess so.
5 0 -- by the grid reference?
6 A I guess so.
7 (Indicating.)
8 0 Is that how you understand the term grid -- grid 9 reference or grid coordinates?
10 A Yes.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
12 Can I ask you what it was -- what that rumor was O 13 that you had heard about Mr. DeWald?
14 Was the rumor that he had actually done a thousand 15 welds inspections in one day or that he had written up a
(
16 thousand welds inspections in one day?
17 THE WITNESS: I believe the deal was that he 18 had done a thousand; but my own -- my own personal 19 judgment is he probably had these -- he probably did 20 them over a few days' period of time.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. But the rumor was that 22 he had actually done a thousand weld inspections in one 23 day, and you are speculating that he couldn't possibly 24 have done that; is that right?
25 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he could.
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i 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But am I stating correctly i
i 2 what the rumor was and what your --
i 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
3 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- statement means?
j 5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
! 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: There's a rumor that he did 8 them; but I don't think he did. I think he saved them j 9 up.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
j 11 BY MR. GUILD:
i l 12 Q In answer to the Chairman's question, your belief, Mr.
( 13 Rolan, is that it would be impossible for someone to 14 properly inspect a thousand welds in one day?
1
, 15 A I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying it l 16 would probably be impossible out there.
i 17 If you were in a -- in --
) 18 Q Except under the circumstances you described, an l
! 19 assembly line of identical welds?
I
! 20 A Yes, if you are like in an assembly linc or something i
i 21 and they were zipping by, you know, you could look. ;
i 22 If they were all exactly the same, I suppose then 23 you could do it; but --
l 24 Q But not hanger welds in the field? .
I 25 A No.
Sonnhag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Q Not cable pan hanger welds in the field?
l 2 A No.
3 Q Could you even do a thousand --
4 A No.
5 0 -- conduit hanger welds in the field in one day?
6 A You would be lucky if you could do 20.
7 Q All right. Do you know how -- can you give us a feel, 8 Mr. Rolan, for how long this rumor has been circulating 9 among inspectors at Comstock?
10 A Oh, I'd say it's a good two years or three years.
11 Q Mr. DeWald came on in the fall of '83 as the QC Manager.
, 12 Do you understand that he had previously worked as O 13 a Level 2 Weld Inspector?
14 A I was there.
15 Q So he did work as a Level 2 Weld Inspector?
16 A He was.
17 Q Did the rumors about the thousand welds a day start 18 before or after Mr. DeWald became QC Manager?
19 A After.
20 0 Was it about the time he became QC Manager?
21 A I don't know if it was then, but it was like some time 22 after.
23 Q Okay. Have you ever spoken to a fellow QC Inspector 24 who's claimed to have actually seen inspection 25 checklists with Mr. DeWald's name on it reflecting a
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1 thousand welds inspected?
j 2 A No.
) 3 Q What's the source of your understanding, then, about the 4 thousand welds in one day?
5 A I think it's kind of impossible to do that many.
6 Q Sure. I understand your opinion.
- 7 But where did you hear the rumor from, if you can j
8 recall?
9 A It was like around the vault area.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry.
11 Could you repeat that?
~
12 THE WITNESS: Around the vault area.
( 13 BY MR. GUILD:
- 14 Q Did it come from inspectors who had access to --
15 A Yes.
16 0 -- inspection checklists?
17 A Is haven't -- I've never seen it; because I remember 18 Mr. -- the NRC gentleman --
19 Q Mr. Mendez?
20 A -- Mendez --
i 21 Q Yes.
4 22 A -- I remember him asking me about it one day, and I
! 23 said, "They said there was one, but I've never seen it,"
24 because he asked me about it and I said I had never seen
{} 25 it.
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4772 C) .
1 Q All right. In response to some questions by Ms. Kezelis 2 about various documents, such as letters of 3 commendation, et cetera, you answered generally, Mr.
4 Rolan, " Yeah, but you won't see it because it's 5 disappeared or been removed," or words to that effect.
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Do you recall that testimony?
8 A Do I recall what?
9 Q Do you recall saying that?
10 A Yes. It was a half-hour ago; 11 Q All right. What -- what leads you to believe that any 12 such documents have been rehoved from your file or O 13 disappeared?
14 A Because wh'en I went to Chicago -- and you were there --
15 Q Yes.
16 Your deposition.
17 A Yes.
18 -- I indicated the fact that there were several 19 misleading items stationed in my file that -- that I
~
20 don't know what I'm doing in'this type of work and et 21 cetera, et cetera.
22 Q Yes. j 23 A And meanwhile, it was saying that I wasn't doing the 24 exact work that I was perfor' ming that week. ,
() 25 Q All right, sir. ,
Sonntaq Reporting Ser'vice, Ltd.
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1 A And I believe those items disappeared; and I believe she 2 asked Mr. Seese, and I -- I guess they disappeared of f 3 the face of the earth; but I remember seeing --
4 Q Excuse me.
5 When you say "she," you mean Ms. Kezelis, counsel 6 for the Company --
7 A I believe she asked about them.
8 Q -- asked you about them?
9 A Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: Did you not ask about those?
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, that's all right.
12 You just have to answer the questions.
13 THE WITNESS: Forget it.
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q So you raised a question at your deposition about l
16 documents that you understood were in your file and --
17 A I've seen them.
18 0 -- you saw them yourself --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- at the plant?
21 A They are not in there now.
22 Q All right. And you understood that the contents of your 23 file were made available to you at your deposition and 24 you looked for them and the documents you sought were 25 not there?
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( l 1 A This is true. I 2 Q And that's the basis for your belief that certain 3 documents were removed from your file?
4 A This is true. I've seen various other documents and I i
5 they are gone.
6 Q All right. Well, you mentioned, in another response, 7 that you believe that there were letters of 8 commendation --
9 A I know for a fact -- _
10 0 -- and those were missing? ,
11 A -- I know for a fact, because I have a copy of one.
12 I don't have it with me now. I couldn't tell you O 13 where it is, but I used to have them.
14 Q So you saw and had custody, physical custody, of a 15 letter commending you for your work and you didn't find 16 that in your file?
17 A Yes.
18 0 You also testified that you understood that Mr. Saklak 19 had been written up before, either had been the subject 20 of management reprimands or complaints by inspectors 21 leading to management reprimand, but that he removed 22 those documents from his file.
23 Is that your testimony?
24 A Yes. Not only other inspectors, but also engineering,
{} 25 construction personnel.
l l
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1 Q Complaints from engineering --
2 A Yes.
3 0 -- complaints from construction personnel --
4 A Engineers, yes.
5 Q -- about Mr. Saklak?
5 6 A Yes.
7 Q And what leads you to conclude that Mr. Saklak removed 8 such documents from his file or the files?
9 A I've seen him in there.
j 10 Q You've seen him in where?
11 A In the manager's office when the manager was gone.
12 Q In Irv DeWald's office?
O 13 A Yes.
14 0 Going through the drawers?
15 A Going through the drawers.
16 Q Going through Mr. DeWald's files?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that what leads you to believe that he removed 19 adverse information about himself from those files?
20 A Well, it seems awfully funny to me the written papers 21 against him have disappeared.
22 Q What makes you believe there were some papers, Mr.
23 Rolan, that have disappeared?
i 24 A Because DeWald mentioned that he had done it already. -
25 Q DeWald mentioned to you personally that he had written
(~}
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1 up Mr. Saklak?
t 2 A I wouldn't say he said it personally; but it was common 3 knowledge that he was -- whatever the word is -- written 4 up for having this problem with such and such a 5 personnel, yes.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
7 I'm not sure I understood that.
8 Did Mr. DeWald tell you that personally?
9 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- not saying he told me 10 that.
11 I'm just saying it was common knowledge that he had 12 been written up for doing such and such actions against O 13 other people, other QC people.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you don't really know 15 whether he had been written up?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, it could be -- it could 17 be a big BS story, too, right --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So --
l 19 THE WITNESS: -- you know.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- basically, it was your 21 understanding, but you never saw any such documents, and 22 you were just --
23 THE WITNESS: I don't go through the personnel 24 files.
1
() 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- you were just taking at l 1
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1 face value what had been told you?
2 THE WITNESS: I don't go through the personnel 3 files. They are under lock and key.
4 BY MR. GUILD:
5 Q Do you remember meeting with Mr. DeWald about your 6 run-in with Mr. Saklak -- meeting with Mr. DeWald and 7 Mr. Seese and Mr. Schirmer?
8 Do you remember you talked about that earlier 9 today?
10 A And who?
11 Q Mr. Schirmer, Don Schirmer.
12 A Okay.
O 13 Q Do you remember that meeting --
14 A Yes.
15 0 -- in which Mr. DeWald asked you what you thought should 16 be done about Mr. Saklak?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q All right. At that meeting, did Mr. DeWald state to you 19 in substance that Mr. Saklak had been written up before?
20 A No. He said he was going to write him up, and I said, 21 "So what." He'd been written up -- I said -- I said, 22 "I'm not in here because this is the first, second or 23 third or fourth time. I'm in here because it's the 1
24 tenth or ninth time. You have written him up before. l 25 When you are not here, he just walks in there and throws
(]} ,
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1 them away. You know it and I know it."
2 Q You said those words to Mr. DeWald --
3 A Yes.
4 0 -- or words to that effect?
5 A I said that, yes.
6 Q Did Mr. DeWald deny that he had written up Mr. Saklak 7 before?
8 A I don't believe he actually denied it.
9 Q Did he say anything?
10 A No, he didn't say anything. He said, "Well, what do you 11 want me to do," and I said, "If it was up to me, he 12 would be working at Bob's Big Boy in Chicago," and 13 that's what I told him.
14 Q Did you ever hear of something called the Pearl Harbor 15 File?
16 A I've seen it.
t 17 Q What is the Pearl Harbor File?
18 A What is it?
19 It was a little -- a little file of items that he 20 kept --
21 Q He, Mr. Saklak?
22 A Yes.
\
23 0 Okay. -
24 A -- that he -- that he hoped would protect him in a time 25 of need.
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1 I've seen it; but I understand it's disappeared.
2 Q Protect him, Mr. Saklak, in the event of a so-called 3 Pearl Harbor at Comstock?
4 A Well, it would be his ace up the sleeve.
5 You know, if it comes down heavy on him, he has 6 some dirt to throw against somebody. .
7 Q Did you understand that to be the meaning of Pearl 8 Harbor?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you ever see such a file?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you see it in Mr. Saklak's company?
O 13 A Yes.
14 Q Did Mr. Saklak refer to it as his Pearl Harbor File?
15 A Oh, yes.
16 Q Did he lead you --
17 A He had it written on there, Pearl Harbor File.
18 0 Oh, he did?
19 A Yes.
20 It was a little folder in his desk.
21 Q All right, sir.
22 Did Mr. Saklak say to you in substance that he was 23 putting information in this file to protect himself, to 24 cover his what have you --
(} 25 A Yes.
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1 Q -- in the event of a problem?
2 A Yes.
3 I've seen the file.
4 Q Let me show you a document, Mr. Rolan, and ask you to 5 take a few moments and study this.
6 (Indicating . )
7 MR. GUILD: This is a handwritten document.
8 It's entitled, " Notes From Discussion Held on 11/20/84 9 concerning incident on 11/7/84."
10 (Indica ting . )
11 What's our next number?
12 Mr. Chairman, can I ask this document be marked, O 13 please, as Intervenors' Exhibit 43 for identification.
14 (The document was thereupon marked 15 Intervenor's Exhibit No. 43 for 16 identification as of June 18, 1986.)
17 BY MR. GUILD:
18 Q Mr. Rolan -- I'm sorry.
19 Are you in the middle of reading the document?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Let me give you a few moments, then, please.
22 A Who wrote this?
23 Q You hadn't seen this document before --
24 A No --
(} 25 Q -- is that correct?
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1 A -- no.
2 Q All right. Does it appear to be the handwriting of Mr.
3 Irv DeWald?
4 A I give up.
5 Q Look at the -- look at the line that appears -- there 6 are a list of participants.
7 It appears to be a meeting in which you were 8 present.
9 - A Uh-huh.
10 Q Do you see, on the left-hand corner, " Meeting held with 11 Franco Rolan, R. Saklak, L. Seese, D. Schirmer"?
12 A Yes.
O 13 Q You participated in such a meeting, didn't you?
~
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was it on or about the 20th of November, 1984?
16 Was that about the date that that happened, to the best 17 of your recall?
18 A I had a checklist --
19 Q I'm sorry. I missed that. -
20 A I had a checklist --
21 Q Yes. No, that's not the question.
22 A Oh. -
- 23 Q The question is
l l
24 Was the date of the meeting that you had with Mr.
25 DeWald and others about the 20th of November?
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4782 1 A Yeah, that's about right.
2 Q You notice, next to the list of names, it says " Chaired 3 by I. DeWald"? Do you see that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that in Mr. DeWald's handwriting?
6 A Yeah, it is.
7 Q Now, the item marked A appears to describe the facts 8 you've already described in some detail about your 9 disputes with Mr. Saklak regarding the NCR for the 10 drawing error; correct?
11 A Right.
12 Q All right. Item B has the words "F. Rolan" by it.
O 13 It seems to relate to the same point, "J." --
14 Jackie Joyce - "J. Joyce started the question of where 15 to put the stamp."
16 A Right, uh-huh.
17 Q "She was informed it wasn't against the inspection."
18 It seems to refer to the same matters, does -- does 19 it not?
20 A Right.
21 Q What does she mean -- or what does the note there mean, j 1
22 the stamp, if you know?
23 A Well, they -- there used to be a time where they would 24 use these little stamps --
Rubber stamp?
{} 25 Q l Sonntaa ReDortino Service, Ltd.
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1 A Yeah. >
2 -- and they would stamp reference ICR, NCR, and you 3 would circle the appropriate one and initial and date 4 and say there was a rejection against the checklist.
5 This checklist was all accepted and signed off, so 6 you can't very well put an NCR stamp on it.
7 Q Where would the stamp go?
8 A Going on the back in the remarks column.
9 Q Of what?
10 A Of the checklist.
11 Q I see.
12 Of the inspection checklist?
O 13 A Yes.
14 Q To indicate there was a reference for that particular 15 component to an ICR or an NCR; is that right?
16 A (Indicating.)
17 Q You have to say yes or no so he can pick it up.
18 A Yes, yes.
19 Q Okay. And it was on that check -- on that rubber stamp 20 that there would be an indication of where -- whether 21 the ICR or NCR was against the electrician or the 22 craftsman or someone else; correct?
23 A Well, it would -- all it says is " reference ICR, NCR,"
24 and then on the ICR or NCR itself, up -- up where it 25 says " description," you kind of write -- over on the
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O 1 side, you write down the foreman's name.
2 Q I see.
3 Okay. Let me show you an NCR. This happens to be 4 Applicant's Exhibit 13 in evidence. I don't pick it for 5 any reason other than it's an NCR form.
6 (Indicating.)
7 Doses this appear to be a Comstock NCR form, 8 Revision F?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Current June of '84?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Now, if you could indicate for me, first, where O 13 on this NCR form would appear the information that you
! 14 have been talking about, and that is, identifying the 15 electrician?
16 A We just write it on top over here.
17 (Indicating.)
18 Q You are showing me.
19 But for the record, you are indicating --
20 A The right-hand side --
21 Q -- under " description"?
22 A -- over in the general area where it says " description,"
23 we like write " foreman" and then put the name down.
24 Q So the form itself, the NCR form, doesn't call for
(} 25 identifying anybody?
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1 A It does now; but it didn't --
2 Q It does now?
3 A -- it didn't then.
4 Q At that time it was simply the practice to indicate on 5 the NCR form who it was written against?
6 A Well, the foreman who's there, whoever the foreman was l
7 that wrote the --
8 Q Right.
9 Was it the basis -- was it your contention that, in 10 this instance, the NCR was being written against 11 Sargeant & Lundy and so it was inappropriate to list the 12 craftsman?
' )
13 A Yes.
14' Q And that was the basis for your dispute with Ms. Joyce 15 and Mr. Saklak?
16 A Well, the only problem with Ms. Joyce was she was --
17 like she don't know what to do with her stamp, and I --
18 0 Where to put the rubber stamp?
19 A Yeah.
20 -- and there ain't nothing wrong with the 21 inspection, so why put a stamp on that?
22 ~ Q So there's no reason to put a rubber stamp on the 23 inspection checklist; correct? -
24 A Right.
25 And that was what your point was?
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1 A Right. ;
2 Q Since the inspection was acceptible, the craftman's work 3 'was acceptable?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q All right. She then said, "Where do I put the rubber 6 stamp," and you said, "You don't need a rubber stamp 7 because this is an NCR against Sargeant & Lundy"?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q All right. C indicates Mr. Seese made a contribution, 10 apparently. )
11 Did Mr. Secse say, in effect, that he remembered 12 that Jackie Joyce told him that you and Mr. Saklak were O 13 having this dispute?
14 If you look at the bottom there on the first page 15 under Item C --
16 A Yeah. He -- Jackie heard us screaming --
17 Q Heard you and Mr. Saklak going at it?
18 A Yes.
19 0 And do you recall Mr. Seese making a statement to that 20 effect in this meeting?
21 A Well, Jackie heard me and Rick screaming, so she went 22 and got Larry, and Larry came in and dragged me out of 23 it, and I told him what happened and I went home.
24 Q Listen to my question now.
(")
ss 25 In the meeting you had with DeWald and others, did 1
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1 Mr. Seese relate that as how he learned of the 2 incident?
3 A Yes --
4 Q Okay.
/
5 A -- initially.
6 Q All right. The backside of the -- or the second page 7 indicates, as you just described, Ms. Joyce's question 8 about the checklist.
9 Under "Results," the first item says, " Bottom line 10 Franco done as he was told by his Lead concerning the 11 NCR."
12 Did Mr. DeWald state his conclusion to that effect 13 at this meeting?
14 A Where are you at?
15 Q Under "Results," the second page, Mr. Rolan.
16 A Oh, oh, oh, oh.
17 Q Look at the first item there --
18 A Yeah.
19 Q -
" Bottom line. "
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Is that what Mr. DeWald had to say at the meeting?
22 A Yeah, I did as I was told.
23 Q DeWald said that?
24 A Yes.
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1 shake hands, stop the individual feuding and leave as 2 is."
3 Did Mr. DeWald state that as a possible solution at 4 that meeting?
5 A I don't believe that.
6 Q Pardon me?
7 A I don't believe that.
8 Q You don't believe he said that at the meeting?
9 A No.
10 Q All right. So you don't recall him having made a 11 statement to that effect?
12 A That would be highly improbable, yes, f
O 13 Q All right. Why would -- why -- why, in your opinion,
\
14 would it be improbable for him to have made such a 15 statement?
16 A Why would he want to do something like that?
17 Q It's not for me to speculate, sir.
18 A No, that wouldn't work out.
19 Q Your recollection is Mr. DeWald made no such statement?
20 A I don't believe he did.
21 Q " Solution No. 2, warning Saklak for bypassing chain of 22 command (Lead should have been contacted) then all 23 individuals revolve the problem with the NCR."
l 24 Now, did Mr. DeWald make a statement to that 25 effect, that was a solution proposed?
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1 A That would have taken care of the problem, period, had 2 he done what he is supposed to do.
3 Q He, Mr. DeWald?
4 A Mr. Saklak.
5 Q I see.
6 A Had he done what he was supposed to do and gone through 7 Don Schirmer like he was supposed to, this would not 8 have occurred.
9 Q Now, I understand your position about that, Mr. Rolan; 10 but I'm focusing again on the meeting of the 20th with Mr. DeWald.
~
11 12 Did Mr. DeWald at that meeting state words to the O 13 effect as are indicated on this document, one proposed 14 solution was warning Saklak, et cetera? -
15 A Uh-huh, I believe he did say that; and I said I 16 wasn't -- I wasn't in here because it was like the first 17 time or second time or third time --
18 Q All right.
19 A -- and I told you that already.
20 Q Okay. At the bottom of the page, it says, " Call T.
21 Paserba."
22 Do you know who Mr. Paserba is?
l 23 A Tom Paserba.
24 Q Yes.
25 Who is Mr. Paserba?
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l A He was like -- I don't know if he still is, but he used 2 to be one of the head personnel for the area --
3 Q All right.
4 A -- Comstock.
5 Q Is he an off-site member of Comstock management?
6 A He's like our upper management's boss --
7 Q All right.
8 A -- out of Chicago.
9 Q Under that note, it says, " Call T. Paserba to get 10 questions." "No. 2, Franco and Saklak."
11 Did you know at the time that Mr. DeWald consulted
- 12 Mr. Paserba about what to do about you and Mr. Saklak? (
() 13 A Shouldn't have anything to do with me as far as I'm 14 concerned. ,
15 Q No.
16 Were you aware of the fact that DeWald contacted 17 Paserba?
18 A No.
19 Q The next page, " Tom Paserba," and there's some notes.
20 "1, bottom line NCR; 2, both individuals shake hands; 3, 21 if not, cooling period for three days; 4, warning to 22 Saklak."
23 Well, did both of you shake hands?
24 A No.
{} 25 Q Did they have a cooling-off period for three days?
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1 Were you aware of any such cooling-off period?
2 A Let's put it this way:
3 I didn't say anything to him for like -- well, you 4 know, I don't believe I said anything to him from that 5 day on.
6 Q You to Mr. Saklak?
7 A Right. ,
8 Q All right. But did Mr. DeWald say anything about the 9 two of you guys having a cooling-off period at that 10 meeting?
11 A I don't remember about that, you know, because -- I do 12 remember that Mr. Saklak apologized to me in the office
() 13 in front of -- in front of Mr. DeWald. I do remember 14 that.
15 Q At that meeting now?
- 16 A Yes, between Mr. DeWald and me and Rick, because that 17 was right after I told Irv that he should be working at 18 Bob's Big Boy --
19 Q Right.
20 A -- and then he did -- Rick did apologize to me, and 21 -
after that, I never said another word to him; and six 22 weeks later, he -- he threatened Rick Snyder.
23 Q Well, it wasn't exactly six weeks later, was it?
24 This is November, and it was some months later; 25 right?
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1 A I don't know --
2 Q March of '85?
3 A Was it that long?
4 Q Right.
5 A Oh, okay. Well --
6 Q Time flies; right?
7 A Yeah, I guess so.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I thought it was six weeks.
10 Q Now, before you had this meeting on the 20th -- some 11 days or weeks had transpired between the date of your 12 run in with Mr. Saklak and the date of this meeting; O 13 correct? Three weeks; right?
14 A Oh, yes, yes.
15 0 And those are the three weeks in which you said you 16 complained to Mr. DeWald on a daily basis about what he 17 was -- what was he going to do about Mr. Saklak?
18 A Yes.
l 19 0 And it was during those three weeks that you determined i l 20 to write a letter; correct? i
- 21 A This is true.
22 Q Now, theIletter, I gather, from your response to Ms.
t
, 23 Kezelis, was going to be directed at people off --
24 people you thought were going to do something about it; 25 is that right?
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O 1 A Yes.
2 Q NRC?
3 A This is true.
4 Q, All right. Commonwealth Edison management?
5 A This is true.
6 Q Comstock management?
7 A This is true.
8 Q All right. And you drafted the letter up.
9 And what, in substance, did -- well, let me ask you 10 first:
11 Do you have a copy of the letter?
12 A I probably don't. I probably threw it away.
O 13 Q All right, sir.
14 Can you relate the substance of what you put in 15 this letter?
16 A I just wrote down -- I described everything that 17 happened and I wrote down how it happened, I wrote down 18 that I did as I was directed by my immediate Lead --
19 0 Mr. Schirmer?
20 A Yes.
21 -- and I wrote down everything that happened.
22 0 What action did you request of the persons to whom the 23 letter was directed?
24 A What did I request of them?
(} 25 Q Yes, what did you ask them to do.
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l A I just wrote down that -- I wrote down -- I referenced 2 10 CFR 50 where it says harassment of inspection.
3 I referenced that article --
4 0 Okay.
5 A -- and that -- that's all I referenced.
6 0 What did you ask the addressees of the letter to do?
7 Did you request any action of the people you were 8 going to write this to?
9 A I just requested that they know about it.
10 Q Did you ask them to investigate it?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Did you ask them to take any action against Mr. Saklak?
O 13 A I don't -- I don't know. I can't remember.
14 I know I wrote this letter, and it was a long time 15 ago, and I never mailed it.
16 Q Fine, fine.
17 But you did bring it to your father's attention 18 before you sent it? ,
19 A I asked him to read it before I mailed it, yes.
20 Q Okhy. And before you showed the letter to your father, 21 had you related to him what had happened between you and 22 Mr. Saklak?
23 A No. ;
24 Q so this was the first time he learned of your encounter 25 with Mr. Saklak; correct?
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1 A Yes. t 2 Q All right. He read the letter, did he not?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Did he get angry when he read the letter?
5 A No.
- 6 Q Did he say to you that he had intended to take any 7 action as a result of reading the letter?
8 A No.
9 MS. KEZELIS: Objection.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: On what ground?
11 MS. KEZELIS: Hearsay with respect to what Mr.
12 Rolan's father said or didn't say to him.
CE) 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: On what ground; that it's 14 hearsay?
15 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Overruled.
17 It isn't. He's just saying what was told to him.
18 He was there.
i 19 BY MR. GUILD: 1 20 Q Your answer was he said nothing about what action he ,
21 would take? l
- 22 A All -- all he -- all he said was that he could not talk ,
1 23 to me as my father. He had to talk to me as the Project 24 Manager, period.
25 Q All right, all right.
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1 And what, if anything, did he say, if he did, about 2 your sending this letter? Did he advise you?
3 A He asked me not to send it.
4 Q He asked you not to send it?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right. Did he state why he was asking you not to 7 send it?
8 MS. KEZELIS: Your Honor, I'm going to renew y 9 my objection.
10 I think the testimony is being --
- 11 A No, he didn't.
J 12 MS. KEZELIS: -- requested for the truth O
13 of the matter stated as to what Mr. Rolan said or didn't
., 14 say as the Project Manager to another individual who was i 15 his son.
.: 16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Overuled, l 17 It's the same ruling. It's not hearsay.
18 BY MR. GUILD:
19 Q He did not?
20 A No.
21 Q All right, sir.
22 It was after you showed the letter to your 23 father --
! 24 A Yeah.
25 Q -- that he became aware of your concern that Mr. Saklak
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1 had been abusive toward you; that --
2 A Well --
3 Q -- that you had this -- I'm sorry.
4 Did I say something wrong?
5 I don't mean to state anything incorrectly now.
t 6 A Well, no, it's not like -- it's not like -- it's not 7 like they don't know, you know.
8 Construction sent him up there because they don't 9 want him downstairs.
i 10 Q I'll pursue that in a moment.
i 11 After you brought --
12 A Yeah.
( 13 0 -- the matter to your father's attention through the 14 letter --
15 A Yeah.
16 0 -- after that date, the meeting was called between you, 17 DeWald, Saklak, Seese and Schirmer; correct?
18 A I think it was later on that day; either that or the 19 next day.
20 Q Okay. And at that meeting, Mr. DeWald led you --
! 21 informed you that he had been contacted by your father, 22 did he not?
23 A Probably true, yes.
i 24 Q All right. And that your father had brought to his i
{) 25 attention your proposed letter to the NRC and others; Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 correct?
2 A I believe so.
3 Q All right. And that your father had basically stated 4 that DeWald should fire Mr. Saklak?
5 A This is true.
6 Q You understood that from Mr. DeWald, did you not?
7 A I believe so, yes.
8 Q All right. It was only then, after Mr. DeWald got this 9 information from your father, that DeWald determined to 10 have the meeting you have described, which led not to 11 firing Mr. Saklak, but to issuing the written reprimand 12 that we've described --
0 13 A I believe --
14 0 -- correct?
15 A I guess so.
16 0 All right. And isn't it a fact, Mr. Rolan, that Mr.
17 DeWald only issued this written reprimand to placate 18 your father, who wanted to fire Mr. Saklak?
19 A Probably so.
20 MS. KEZELIS: Objection.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Objection sustained to 22 that --
23 THE WITNESS: Objection, objection.
24 'JUOGE GROSSMAN: -- and the answer will be 25 stricken,
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1 Mr. Guild, there's no way he can know what went on 2 in someone's else's mind.
3 MR. GUILD: Well, obviously, it's his --
4 limited -- limited on the basis of what his opinion is; 5 but I do think he's in a position to express an opinion, 6 knowing all these circumstances. It, obviously, is only 7 his opinion.
8 He simply can't establish, as a matter of fact, 9 what a man's motive is -- I agree with that 10 proposition -- but I do believe he's entitled to state 11 his opinion on the subject.
12 MS. KEZELIS: Your Honor, Mr. Dewald has
() 13 already testified.
14 Mr. Guild was entitled to ask Mr. DeWald any 15 motivation Mr. DeWald did or did not have at any 16 particular given time.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Ms. Kezelis, there can be a 18 conflict in testimony; but the point is that this really 19 isn't competent testimony --
20 MS. KEZELIS: That's my point.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- as we indicated that it 22 isn't.
23 MR. GUILD: Fine, fine, Judge.
24 BY MR. GUILD:
{} 25 Q Mr. Rolan, I show you a second document, please.
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O 1 (Indicating.)
2 ~Mr. Rolan, I show you a document that's dated 3 11/20/84, "To R. Saklak file from 1. DeWald, Subject, R.
4 Saklak/F. Rolan incident." ,
5 Have you seen this. document before, Mr. Rolan?
6 ,
A This one here?
7 (Indica ting . )
8 0 Yes, sir.
J9 k I don't know. I qan't remember.
, 10 Q _All right, sir.
11 I just put it before you.
12 ,
' If reviewing it would reffesh y,our recollection on 13 the question of whether you have seen it before, please 14 .take a moment and look the document over. ,
15 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, while the witness 16 is examining the document, I'd asklit be marked for 17 identification asI Intervenors' Exhibit 44.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAy: _ Wasn't this introduced 19 previously? .
20 No, it hasn't been.
21 'MR. GUILD: No, sir, I don't believe so.
22 (The document was thereupon marked 23 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 44 for
. 24 identification as of June 18, 1986.)
(~3 25 BY MR. GUILD:
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1 Q Now, can you recall whether you have seen this document 2 before, Mr. Rolan?
3 A I don't remember seeing the document before --
4 Q All right, sir.
5 A -- but you see the bottom item line, F?
6 It says, "Was previously spoken to about," so you 7 know this ain't the first t'me. i 8 Q Yes, sir.
9 Now, this purports to be a memorandum from Mr.
10 DeWald.
11 It has his signature at the bottom, does it not?
12 A Yes.
O 13 Q It purports to reflect the resolution of the 14 Rolan-Saklak incident.
15 I want to ask you whether or not Mr. DeWald related 16 this resolution to you.
17 First, did Mr. DeWald relate to you, as it states 18 in the second line of the memo, "There had been previous 19 incidents and discussions with R. Saklak concerning his ,
l 20 supervision practices"? l 21 Do you see that?
22 A Oh, yeah.
23 Q Did DeWald --
l 24 A Okay.
25 Q -- state those words or that in substance to you at that r
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l time?
2 A I believe so.
3 Q All right, sir.
4 A relates, "Mr. Saklak used very poor judgment and 5 did not follow up the problem with F. Roland's Lead as 6 he should have" - "as should have been done." Excuse 7 me.
8 Did Mr. DeWald state in substance those words to 9 you at the November 20th meeting?
10 A I know he was supposed to to Don and he didn't --
11 0 Yes. It's not a question of what happened.
12 Again, it's whether Mr. DeWald stated to you at O 13 'that meeting this conclusion that appears under A in the 14 memo.
15 A I don ' t r emembe r --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- because I -- I was already ticked of f.
18 0 "C, Mr. Saklak should not have made the threatening-type 19 statements concerning Mr. Rolan's certification and the 20 NRC. This was extremely poor action on Mr. Saklak's 21 part."
22 Did Mr. DeWald state words to that effect to you at 23 that meeting?
24 A I remember -- I remember specifically I was really
{} 25 ticked off, and Irv DeWald said, "What did he say to Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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- C) 1 you, what did he say to you," and it was like three 2 weeks later, and I said, "What did you have for dessert 3 three weeks ago?"
4 You know, I'm supposed to be able to pull these 5 words out of thin air; and all I know is I was like 6 ticked, and I left; and then Larry Seese was there, and 7 Larry Seese is real good at writing everything down, so 8 he said that --
9 Q So we've seen --
10 A -- Rick -- that when the NRC got done with me, I 11 wouldn't have any certs -- and I believe he said that I
, 12 would not have any certificatiun.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, I don't believe 14 you've gotten the gist of the question --
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- and this line of 17 questioning.
18 Mr. Guild is asking you whether any of these things 19 that Mr. DeWald concluded in this letter --
, 20 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. l
\ l 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- are things that he ll 22 mentioned to you at the meeting.
23 In other words, with regard to C, did he say at the 24 meeting that Mr. Saklak should not have made
{) 25 threatening-type statements?
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1 Were these conclusions that he brought out at that 2 meeting or did he just write this up afterwards and not 3 say this at the meeting itself?
4 Do you understand what the line of questioning is?
5 So Mr. Guild is acking you, with regard to each of 6 these items, whether they were brought up at that 7 meeting of 11/20. ,
8 THE WITNESS: Or whether you think he 9 manufactured this?
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, no, it's not a 11 question of manufacturing.
12 MR. GUILD: There are other choices 13 available.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: It's a question of whether 15 he actually stated these things at the meeting.
16 THE WITNESS: Oh, I believe that he did i 17 . ask -- I remember he did ask Don Schirmer if I did as I 18 was told, and Don said yes --
19 MR. GUILD: All right.
20 THE WITNESS: -- and I remember him asking me 21 exactly what Rick said, and I said I c'ouldn't remember 22 because it was so long ago.
23 I was really ticked off.
24 BY MR. GUILD: l 25 Q Now, Mr. Seese made a contribution at that point;
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1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, was Mr. Seese present during your altercation with 4 Mr. Saklak?
5 A What happened was he had -- he had heard us yelling back 6 and forth, and Jackie got him, and he walked in the 7 office and I kind of opened up, and that's when Rick was 8 screaming at me.
9 Q Did Mr. Seese state, on the 20th of November, that he 10 recalled the words that Mr. Saklak had used with regard 11 to your certs and the NRC?
l'2 A Yes, yes.
O 13 Q So it was Mr. Seese's recollection of those words and 14 not your recollection that was being recorded at this 15 meeting; correct?
16 A This is true.
17 Q All right, sir.
18 Now, focus on this question:
19 Did Mr. DeWald state words to the effect as those 20 reflected in Item C, and that is, that he, Mr. Saklak, 21 should not have made the threatening-type statements?
22 Did DeWald say that at the meeting? l 23 A Probably so. You know, I don't know.
24 This happened 11/20/84 --
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. If you don't recall --
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1 A (Continuing. ) -- and this is '86.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, if you don't 3 recall anything, don't try to speculate --
4 A (Continuing. ) You know --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- don't try to guess.
6 A (Continuing.) -- I don't know, I don't -- I don't know.
7 I was there. I told him what happened.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
J 9 A (Continuing . ) I was there. Everybody agreed.
i 10 MR. GUILD: All right, sir.
4 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In other words, Mr. DeWald 12 could have said something to Mr. Saklak --
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- with regard to making 15 threatening-type statements, but you don't recall --
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- whether he actually did; 18 is that the case?
19 THE WITNESS: No. I can't -- I don't really 20 remember that mu_ch about it.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
22 BY MR. GUILD: !
23 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall, at that November 20, 1984, 24 meeting, whether Mr. Rolan -- sorry -- whether Mr.
l
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1 against Mr. Saklak for his -- for Saklak's threataning 2 you, for the act of threatening you?
3 A He just said he was going to write him up.
4 Q All right.
5 A He didn't say he was going to write him up for 6 threatening me, I don't believe. ;
7 Q All right, sir.
8 A Just write him up.
9 MR. GUILD: I'll show you one more document. ,
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, he did say that at the 11 meeting?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And did you understand 14 writing him up to be writing a written -- writing a 15 reprimand?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes; one of these things.
17 (Indicating. )
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
19 BY MR. GUILD:
20 0 But you didn't understand what he was going to write him 21 up for, did you?
22 A Yeah. They said they were going to write him up for 23 whatever.
24 You notice it says first warning? You notice that?
I i
{} 25 Q Now, I've handed you a document that is, in fact, a copy l
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4808 1 of the reprimand -- appears to be a copy of the 2 reprimand that Mr. DeWald wrote for Mr. Saklak. i l
3 (Indicating. )
4 Have you seen this document before?
5 A No.
6 Q All right. The document states, under the remarks 7 section, " Warning issued for bypassing the Lead 8 Inspector and not inspecting the situation prior to 9 consulting the inspector" --
10 MR. GUILD: Did I read it wrong?
11 MR. MILLER: Yes. You said " inspection."
12 MR. GUILD: Excuse me. Investigating.
O 13 BY MR. GUILD:
14 Q " Investigating the situation prior to consulting the 15 inspector. The Lead should have been questioned to 16 insure what direction was given to the inspector, 17 therefore following the supervision chain as 18 satablished."
19 All right. Now, does it say anything in this 20 warning, Mr. Rolan, about threatening you?
21 It doesn't, does it?
22 A Go back again.
23 Q There's no statement of Mr. DeWald's warning of Mr.
24 Saklak -- warning against Mr. Saklak in the document L
() 25 before you about any threat, is there?
1 I
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1 A Oh, no, no.
2 It just says slap on the hand and that's all it 3 says, and it is his first warning.
4 I told you before --
5 Q It describes the situation as reflecting Mr. Saklak 6 consulting the inspector, does it not?
7 Do you see those words there?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q Well, Mr. Saklak didn't consult you, did he? He 10 threatened you?
11 A I wouldn't say consult. I would say more like screamed 12 at.
O 13 Q All right, sir.
14 But that was not what Mr. DeWald wrote?
15 A Not what he had written here, no.
16 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I ask this document 17 be marked as Intervenors' 45; and ask that the documents 18 marked as Exhibits 43, 44 and 45 be received in 19 evidence. j 20 (The document was thereupon marked
, 21 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 45 for I 22 identification as of June 18, 1986.)
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I take it there's no 24 obj ection?
{} 25 MS. KEZELIS: No objection.
l l
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Berry?
2 MR. BERRY: No objection.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. They are admitted.
4 (The documents were thereupon received i
5 into evidence as Intervenors' Exhibits 6 Nos. 43, 44 and 45.)
7 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, may I ask for a 8 brief recess at this point?
1 j 9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
! 10 Why don't we take about 10 minutes, then.
1 11 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 12 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We're back in 14 session.
15 Mr. Guild, will you continue, please.
16 MR. GUILD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 BY MR. GUILD:
18 Q Mr. Rolan, before the recess, when Ms. Kezelis was 19 questioning you, you used the term " bird dogging" to 20 describe Mr. Saklak's comments.
21 Do you recall using that term?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, is the term " bird dog" or " bird dogging" a common 24 . term used among construction workers?
25 A Yes.
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4811 1 Q And does it refer commonly to a supervisor who watches 2 oyer a worker very closely, follows them in their work?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Spies on them, that sort of thing?
5 A Right.
6 Q And that's the activity that's referred to as bird 7 dogging?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All supervisors presumably oversee their -- their 10 subordinates' work, don't they?
11 A This is typically what they are paid to do, yes.
12 Q But all supervisors aren't known as bird dogs, are they?
O 13 A We're talking excessive.
14 Q All right. So when a supervisor excessively hounds a 15 worker, he gets the nickname of bird dog, doesn't he?
s 16 A Yes.
17 Q And Mr. Saklak had that reputation, did'he not?
18 A Among me, yes.
19 Q Well, you thought of him as a bird dog; right?
20 A Well, I think of anybody like that. Especially if I see 21 them five times, you know, in the last half-hour, you 22 think, you know --
23 Q Anybody who behaved that way you would think of as a 24 bird dog?
25 A Right.
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1 Q All right. Are you aware that Mr. Saklak had a 2 reputation more generally among the inspectors for bird 3 dogging?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Would you agree that he did have that reputation; is 6 that your opinion?
7 A More or less, yes.
8 Q And that reflected a more-than-usual degree of hounding, 9 of supervising of inspectors; correct?
- 10 A I guess so.
- 11 (Indicating.)
12 Q Okay.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, you only have to 14 ask a question once if you get the answer you want.
15 MR. GUILD: Fine. Thank you.
16 BY MR. GUILD:
17 Q You stated that Mr. Saklak had been warned, to your
, 18 understanding, a number of times by Comstock management 19 prior to the incident in November of '84 in which you l
20 and Mr. Saklak had the encounter?
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q All right. Is it your belief that management of
]
23 Comstock was aware of Mr. Saklak's supervisory style, 24 his bird dogging?
25 A Yes, amongst other things.
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1 Q All right. Among other things, including being aware of 2 Mr. Saklak's temper?
3 Were they aware of his temper?
4 A Oh, yes, very much so. ,
5 Q Was Mr. DeWald aware of his temper?
6 A Oh, yeah.
7 Q Aware of his use of abusive language towards inspectors?
8 A This is true.
9 Q Do you know whether or not -- strike that.
10 Do you understand that management more senior than 11 Mr. DeWald was aware of Mr. Saklak's supervisory style?
12 A Yes.
O 13 Q Okay. And is it your understanding that off-site 14 management was aware of Mr. Saklak's supervisory style?
15 A I can't say off-site management, but Comstock and 16 Commonwealth Edison,~yes.
17 Q All right. Comstock management on the Braidwood site --
18 A Yes.
19 0 -- above Mr. DeWald or aside from Mr. DeWald?
20 A Oh, yes.
21 Q All right. Was Commonwealth Edison Company --
22 A Yes.
23 0 -- the owner --
24 A Yes.
{} 25 0 -- aware of Mr. Saklak's management style --
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1 A Yes.
2 0 -- before the incident you had with Mr. Saklak in 3 November of '8 4?
4 A Yeah, true.
5 Q Now, in any of these weekly meetings, the weekly general 6 meeting with the QC Inspectors, that for a time were 7 conducted on Fridays, did you ever hear management i
8 reprimand or warn or counsel Mr. Saklak because of his 9 use of abusive language toward inspectors?
i 10 A On a Friday meeting?
11 Q Yes.
, 12 A No, not on a Friday meeting.
13 Q Well, at any meeting.
14 A Not on a Friday meeting, no.
15 Q Okay.
16 At any meeting, aside from whether it was on a 17 Friday or not?
18 I don't know why you are emphasizing the word 19 " Friday" in your response.
20 Did you ever hear Comstock management, in a group 21 setting with the inspectors, ever criticize Mr. Saklak 22 for his management style?
23 A Well, let's see. Other -- other than the 24 inspectors 24 at the NRC now?
l
{} 25 Q Yes.
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1 A Well, he had been dragged into DeWald's office by 2 various other inspectors.
3 Q That's not my point of the question.
4 Let me restate it.
5 A Oh.
6 Q These Friday meetings were meetings which management
/
7 conducted with their inspectors; right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Now, in those meetings, did you ever hear Mr.
! 10 DeWald or Comstock management criticize Mr. Saklak for 11 abusing inspectors?
- 12 A No, I don't think so.
(:) 13 Q Did you ever hear Mr. DeWald or Comstock management 14 criticize Mr. Saklak for bird dogging inspectors?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you ever hear Mr. DeWald or Comstock management 17 criticize Mr. Saklak in any respect for his management 18 style?
i 19 A In front of all those people?
20 Q Yes.
j 21 A No.
22 Q You stated, in response .to an early question from Ms.
23 Kezelis, that -- she asked you who your father was and I
24 you stated the name, and she asked you his position and 25 you stated, I believe I heard you say, that he was
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i 4816 1 Assistant Project Manager; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
1 3 Q All right. Was your father formerly the Project
! 4 Manager? ,
5 A Yes.
6 They are rearranging the structure down there.
4 7 Q When did your father become Assistant Project Manager?
8 A I think yesterday.
< 9 Q And who is now the Project Manager?
}
10 A I give up.
11 (Indicating.)
i 12 -
Q You don't know? \
1 O 13 A I haven't been at work. I've been standing out in the l 14 hall.
l 15 Q Indeed you have.
! 16 How did you learn that your father was now the
! 17 Assistant Project Manager?
18 A My wife told me.
19 Q All right. She had heard it on the job?
i
,! 20 A Yes.
i 21 Q Okay. You described Mr. DeWald as the Assistant Quality 22 Control Manager.
t 23 A Yes.
4 24 Q Is that your understanding of his position?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And who is the Quality Control Manager, then?
2 A Bob Seltmann.
i 3 Q All right. Do you understand Mr. Seltmann is both the 4 Quality Control and Quality Assurance Manager?
5 A More or less, yes.
6 Q Okay. And he, Mr. DeWald, now reports to him?
7 A More or less, yes.
8 Q You identified several other individuals that you 9 understood had had run-ins with Mr. Saklak:
10 Mr. Martin --
1 11 A Yes.
12 Q -- Mr. Martin, Mr. Hall, Mr. Stewart?
O 13 A A lot of people have.
14 Q The name I wrote down is Bouchou?
15 A Bouchou.
16 Q Bouchou?
17 A Bouchou.
18 He doesn't work there anymore.
19 I mean, if you asked -- if you sat down and you 20 asked all the people that were here when Rick was i
21 here --
22 Q Saklak?
23 A Yes.
24 -- you would find an awful lot of them have had
{} 25 some type of conflict of interest.
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l (Indicating.)
2 Q All right.
3 A It's not one person.
4 There are some people that he had more than one 5 episode with.
6 Q All right. You described Mr. Saklak as having a 7 vendetta against Mr. Hall.
8 Do you remember that testimony?
9 A Yes.
10 Q How did you mean the term " vendetta" as you used it?
11 A I'd say out to get him.
12 Q All right. Who is Mr. Hall?
O 13 A You used to be a QC Inspector.
14 Q Did he -- he's not a QC Inspector anymore?
15 A Not here.
16 Q Did he quit?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Can you recall when, approximately, Mr. Hall left the 19 site?
20 A Oh, he moved to Texas.
21 Q All right. Bay City, Texas.
22 Can you recall when he left?
23 A I'd say at least a year-and-a-half ago, maybe --
24 Q All right.
25 A -- two years ago.
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1 Q How did you become aware that Mr. Saklak had a vendetta 2 against Mr. Hall, that he was out to get Mr. Hall?
3 A Well, it's common knowledge.
4 I mean, he used to go from person to person, you 5 know, and I guess you could say harass them or you could say bird dog or, you know -- I mean, I seriously -- I 6
7 can -- I can tell you I know for a fact I have heard him 8 say to me --
9 Q Him, Saklak now?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- that he was out to get Mr. Martin --
C:) 13 Q Rick Martin?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay.
16 A -- and we were like on our way out to the building.
17 Q You and Mr. Saklak?
18 A Yes.
i 1 19 I know for a fact he told me that himself, that he i
20 was out to get Rick Martin for a fact.
21 You see, I'm telling you he goes on a little scale, 1
! 22 like this person, this person.
1 23 Q On this occasion, what in substance did Mr. Saklak have 24 to say about being out to get Mr. Martin?
(} 25 A He said he was out to get his job, I believe.
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1 I took a beeline to stay out of this, you know, and 2 I zipped around. I went somewhere else.
3 Q You got out of the way?
4 A Yeah. I didn't want to be anywhere near.
5 But I know for a fact he had said that.
6 Q Do you have any understanding at the time of why Mr.
7 Saklak was motivated to get Mr. Martin?
8 A Rick was like that.
i 9 Q Rick Saklak?
I 10 A He went from person to person.
11 Q Okay. No particular understanding of why Mr. Martin --
12 A I give up.
() 13 (Indicating.)
14 Q Okay. How about Mr. Hall?
15 That was the start of my question.
16 A Again --
i 17 Q Why the vendetta against Mr. Hall? Do you have an 18 understanding?
19 A The only thing I can think of is Jim Hall used to run
. 20 the department before Rick got there. Jim ran it, and 21 Rick came and then Jim was with us; you know, a regular 22 inspector with us.
23 Q Jim Hall ran what department before Rick came?
24 A The QC Department. He was like supervisor.
25 He preceded Mr. Saklak as supervisor?
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1 A Yes --
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- for a small period of time.
4 Q All right. And can you identify the period of time when 5 Mr. Hall was in that position?
6 A I can't remember. It was awhile ago, you know.
7 There -- you know, there weren't that many -- as 8 many people as there are now. ,
9 A long time ago.
10 Q I'm sorry. Did you finish your answer?
11 A A long time ago.
12 0 I cut you off earlier when you were answering a question
() 13 that you volunteered the information that Mr. Saklak had 14 been moved upstairs because -- for some reason, and I 15 don't recall specifically what you said.
16 A Yes.
17 Q But what had Mr. Saklak done before he became -- before i 18 he was assigned to the Quality Control Department, to 19 your understanding?
20 A He worked in the computer room. I believe he worked in 21 the computer room, cable.
22 Q Okay. Was he involved in scheduling and statusing; do 23 you know?
24 A Something along tha't line, yes.
{} 25 Q Do you know who he worked for and what arm of the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 company Mr. Saklak worked for before he came to QC?
2 A What company he worked for?
3 0 What arm, what part of Comstock, he worked for?
4 A Cable, engineering.-
5 Q Engineering Department?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. And engineering is downstairs from QC?
8 A Yes.
! 9 Q All right. And what did you say before about the reason 10 for Mr. -- your understanding of the reason for Mr.
11 Saklak being sent upstairs to QC?
12 A Because we could not manage ourselves and any idiot O
13 could manage our department, so they sent him upstairs 14 to straighten up the mess.
15 Q Your understanding was that Saklak was sent upstairs to 16 take charge?
17 A More or less, yes.
18 Q All right. And where did you come to that 19 understanding? How did you learn that or come to 20 understand that?
21 A That was -- that was the general common knowledge of 22 what they had, because it was like -- it was like 23 they -- they had this little fight, going between 24 upstairs and downstairs, and they said, "Any bozo can 25 run that department." They said, "Okay, go ahead," and
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1 they sent Rick Saklak up.
2 They didn't want him, so they sent him up there to 3 us, and that's how we got him; no previous, quality 4 control experience, no previous -- you know, et cetera, 3 et cetera. Just instant Quality Control Supervisor, 6 period.
7 Q Your understanding, Mr. Saklak had no QC background 8 before he came up to your department?
9 A This is true.
10 Q And that he worked for the production side before?
11 A Yes.
12 Q That's what you mean when you say " engineering," it's 13 Comstock Engineering, and they are the ones that do the 14 actual production work; correct?
15 A This is true.
16 Q So Hall had preceded Saklak in that position, and your 17 understanding --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- was --
20 A It was a temporary deal.
21 Q -- that Saklak had a vendetta against him?
22 A Not only him.
23 0 Well, did he -- did he succeed in his vendetta against l 24 Mr. Hall?
25 A No.
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O 1 They used to fight, though.
2 Q Mr. Hall quit?
3 A I wouldn't say he quit because of that, but he did quit, 4 yes.
5 Q All right. Do you know why he quit?
6 A He quit because his wife wanted to move to Texas, and so 7 it was either move with his wife or his wife was going 8 to live there and he was going to stay here.
9 Q Stay with Rick?
10 A Yeah.
11 So he moved to Texas with her.
C 12 Q All right. How about Mr. Stewart:
O 13 You stated that you understood Mr. Stewart had had 14 run-ins with Mr. Saklak.
15 You mean Tim Stewart?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q Tim Stewart?
18 A Yes; Beefer.
19 Q What was that?
20 A Beefer.
21 He was a little kid. You talked to him.
22 0 Yes.
23 Took his deposition; right?
24 A That's him.
25 Q And what was your understanding of the nature of the
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1 conflict between Saklak and Mr. Stewart?
2 A I don't know.
! 3 It was like Tim was a CEA Inspector, I believe --
! 4 Q Concrete expansion aggregate?
i 5 A Yeah.
l 6 -- and I don't -- I just know that Rick used to
- 7 scream at, yell at, him.
8 Q You heard him do that?
i 9 A Yeah.
i 10 I don't know about what; but, you know, I remember 11 seeing him.
i ,
12 Like every once in a while it would be Tim's turn.
! () 13 Q You mentioned the name -- I may have it wrong again --
i 14 Bouchou?
15 A Bouchou.
, 16 He doesn't work here anymore.
17 Q Do you know how to spell his name?
1
! 18 A No.
19 Q What --
20 A It's been a long time ago.
- 21 Q What was your understanding of run-ins between Mr.
j 22 Saklak and Mr. Bouchou?
! 23 A Hard to say. It's been a long -- you know, it's just a
24 like the same old garbage. ;
25 What kind of work did Mr. Bouchou do?
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1 A He used to do cable pan and conduit.
2 Q Weld inspections? ,
3 A No.
4 0 Configuration inspections?
5 A No.
I 6 Regular cable pan and conduit.
7 Q All right. Did you overhear any instances in which 8 Saklak and Bouchou --
9 A They used to scream at ea'ch other. You know, you can --
'l 10 it goes on and on and on, you know.
11 Q And what happened to Mr. Bouchou?
4 4
12 A He quit.
O 13 Q All right. When you went to the NRC in March of 1985 to i
14 support Mr. Snyder and to testify about your personal i
15 experience with Mr. Saklak, did you expect that what you j 16 had to say to the NRC would be kept in confidence, 17 confidentiality?
18 A I had reason to believe it would -- it would have been.
19 Q All right. Did you expect that they would be using your l 20 name in a public document, Mr. Rolan?
I 21 A No; but they did.
- 22 (Indicating.)
i 23 It don't matter. I told them the truth.
j 24 Q Do you recall there being a discussion of the subject of 25 confidentiality at that meeting?
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1 A I don't really remember.
2 Q Did you subsequently get a copy of the --
3 A Yeah, I did.
4 Q -- three memos?
.5 A I got one like you got.
6 Q All right.
7 A Got my name right on the side.
8 Q Right.
9 And you saw the part of the memo that referred to 10 you and your concern?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Do you recall a cover memo that said, in effect, "Please '
C) 13 let us hear from you if you have any corrections or 14 additions"?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Did you provide any corrections or additions to the NRC?
17 A I talked to -- what's his name -- Mendez.
18 Q Mr. Mendez? -
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right. You told Mr. Mendez what happened?
21 A Yeah. I -- I showed him everything that we had with the 22 problem of that time, and I told him that the 23 non-conformance has now been closed, drafting errors 24 have been completed and everythi,ng was okey dokey.
25 You showed him the details -- explained to him the
(]) Q
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l details of your concerns involving the incident of the 2 NCR's; correct?
3 A What?
4 Q You explained the details to Mr. Mendez about --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- your incident -- the incident with Mr. Saklak and the 7 'NCR's?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q Okay. Did I understand you to say that you showed Mr.
10 Mendez the drawings involved?
11 A Yes. -
e 12 Q So he had all the factn?
O 13 A Yeah.
14 Q Did you make any corrections to the March -- or April, 15 '85, memos -- to the statementa attributed tocyou in 16 those memos? ,
17 A You mean the one you showed me?
18 Q I'm not sure I showed it to you, b'ut the-three NRC 19 memos, the one that Ms. Kezelis showed you that had your 20 name by it.
21 A Oh, you mean the one that -- the one that you asked me 22 if I -- she asked me if everything was correct and I 23 said the date was and that --
24 Q That's right, that was the one.
/~T 25 A Are these here? i V
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1 I didn't go and talk to him since then.
2 Q I'm sorry?
3 A I never did go and talk to these people again since 4 then --
5 Q All right. Just Mr. Mendez?
6 A -- except for Mendez --
i 7 Q Fine.
8 A -- and that was it, i
9 MR. GUILD: That's all the questions I have, i
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 Thank you, Mr. Rolan.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Berry, you may examine.
O 13 CROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BERRY:
15 Q Mr. Rolan, I place before you a document dated April 8, 16 1985. It's a letter from Mr. Weil of the Nuclear 17 Regulatory Commission addressed to you, and ask you if 18 you received a copy -- received a copy of that document 19 along with documents which have been marked as 20 Intervenor Exhibit 42.
21 (Indicating.)
22 MR. BERRY: Your Honor, I'd like this document 23 marked as Staff Exhibit 2.
I 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, it's not the same 25 document that's been -- oh, I see. Okay.
(]}
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1 This is similar to Staff Exhibit 1 except addressed 2 to Mr. Roland.
3 MR. BERRY: Yes; it is, yes, yes.
4 (The document was thereupon marked 5 Staff Exhibit No. 2 for identification as 6 of June 18, 1986.)
7 THE WITNESS: What about it?
8 BY MR. SNAO:
9 Q The question -- the question pending is:
10 Have you -- is this a copy of the document you 11 received from the NRC?
12 A I don't remember it being -- seeing it.
O 13 I remember seeing one like he had, but I don't 14 remember this one.
15 (Indicating.)
16 Q 'Did you ever live at 685 Beech Street?
17 A Yeah, I used to live there.
18 Q Did you live there in April of 1985?
19 A Yes.
20 MR. BERRY: Your Honor, I would -- I would 21 move this document into evidence as Staff Exhibit 2.
22 MS. KEZELIS: No objection, your Honor.
23 MR. GUILD: No objection, Mr. Chairman.
24 MR. BERRY: I'll provide copies to the Board.
() 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I'm glad there are no Sonntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
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O 1 objections, so we'll receive that in evidence.
2 Also, no foundation.
3 (The document was thereupon received into 4 evidence as Staff Exhibit No. 2.)
5 BY MR. BERRY:
6 Q Mr. Rolan, Mr. Guild asked you if you understood that 7 the NRC would make public documents disclosing your 8 identity and comments you may have made -- you may have 9 made to the NRC on March 28th -- 29th.
10 Do you remember that question?
11 A He just asked it --
12 Q Yes.
13 You --
14 A -- he just asked it.
15 Q What documents did the NRC make public?
16 A Well, the only one I knew of is the one he had.
17 (Indicating.)
18 Q Do you understand that the NRC made -- do you understand 9 that the NRC made -- made -- made the documents that you 20 received public?
21 A Do I understand that they made them public?
22 Yes, he has a copy, I got a copy.
23 Q You understand his copy came from the NRC?
24 A It's the same one I got; and their brother got one.
25 Q The question was:
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1 Do you understand that he received that copy from 2 the NRC?
3 A I assume that's where he got it. !
4 Q But you don't know?
5 A He could have Xeroxed it somewhere.
6 (Indicating.).
7 THE WITNESS: Did you get it from the NRC?
8 MR. GUILD: I can't answer the question, Mr.
9 Rolan.
10 THE WITNESS: Oh, never mind.
11 MR. GUILD: I'll tell you later.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
O 13 MR. BERRY: I didn't hear your last remark.
14 MR. GUILD: I said to the witness -- I 15 apologize for being facetious, but he asked me where I 16 got it, I said I couldn't tell him, and I would speak to 17 him later about it if he was interested.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I think we ought to 19 stop cross conversation.
20 You really ought to address remarks here to the 21 Board.
22 BY MR. BERRY:
23 Q Mr. Rolan, I'd like to direct your attention to 24 Intervenor Exhibit 42, 42A. That's the April 5, 1985, 25 memorandum; and in the statement that's attributed to
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1 you -- do I understand you went to the NRC to support 1 i
2 Mr. Snyder and his complaints about Mr. Saklak? Is that 3 correct?
4 A This is true.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
6 Do you have the document that he referred to?
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know which one he's 8 talking about.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Could you make sure, Mr.
10 Berry, that he has the document in front of him that you 11 are referring to.
12 THE WITNESS: These are what I have.
O 13 (Indicating.)
14 See, I don't have one of those. They took it back.
15 Put the microphone closer to you so I can hear you 16 better. Okay.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If you have any trouble 18 hearing, just say so --
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- in the middle of a 2'l question.
22 THE WITNESS: All right.
23 MR. BERRY: I believe there was a question l 24 pending.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Reporter, could you
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1 repeat the question, if there was one pending.
2 (The question was thereupon read by the 3 Reporter.)
4 A That is correct.
5 BY MR. BERRY:
6 Q And you also -- and you also related an incident that 7 you had where Mr. -- with Mr. Saklak; that's correct, 8 correct?
9 A That's what I told the NRC there.
10 Q And does -- the statement attributed to you on the April i 11 5, 1985, memo, does that capture the -- the gist of --
12 of your concern or -- to the NRC?
O 13 MS. KEZELIS: I'm going to object.
14 I believe the witness has already testified at 15 length that perhaps the only aspect of this statement 16 that may be correct is the date, November 5,1984, and 17 the last phrase.
18 I think it's pretty well established on the record 19 that it wasn't Mr. Saklak who told him to finish the 20 inspection even though drafting errors were noted.
21 MR. BERRY: All right, fine.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did cover that.
23 MR. BERRY: Yes.
24 BY MR. BERRY:
(} 25 Q But the memorandum does reflect that you had a complaint Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
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1 about Mr..Saklak?
2 A Yes, it does say that.
3 Q And that was your purpose for going to the NRC?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Rolan, do you recall that -- at the 6 meeting of March 29, 1985, that you attended with the 7 NRC, that the NRC inspectors asked Comstock inspectors 8 in attendance, you know, whether they had any objection 9 to the Staff or the NRC notifying Commonwealth Edison 10 that they had received allegations about Mr. Saklak, and 11 that the inspectors indicated that they did not have 12 objections to that? Do you recall that?
O 13 THE WITNESS: I thought we already asked that 14 question.
15 MR. BERRY: Would you answer that question?
16 THE WITNESS: I thought we already did.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, what was your answer?
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, I believe we -- we didn't 19 care for them to be public with this; but the problem 20 being is Edison already knew.
21 MR. BERRY: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: We told Edison, we told Quality 23 First, we told management and then we told you.
24 Now, if you want to tell them, it's not -- it's not 25 something they don't already know.
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1 (Indicating.)
2 Don't get me wrong. They already knew it, anyway, 3 s o --
4 BY MR. BERRY:
5 Q My question was:
6 Do you recall the Staff -- being asked that --
7 being asked whether you had any objection --
8 A No.
9 Q -- to the Staff notifying Edison?
10 A I don't -- I don't remember about that part.
11 Q Okay.
12 A It doesn't matter. They told them, anyway.
O 13 Q After you went to -- after you went to the NRC on March 14 29th, Mr. Saklak was terminated, wasn't he?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And that -- that took care of your concern?
17 A As far as I was concerned, yes.
18 MR. BERRY: Thank you.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Ms. Kezelis.
20 MS. KEZELIS: Yes.
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Mr. Rolan, Mr. Guild had asked you a number of questions 1
24 regarding Mr. DeWald's relationship with the QC l
(} 25 Inspectors when Mr. DeWald served as the QC Manager.
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1 Do you recall that line of questioning?
2 A He asked if he was friendly.
3 Q And one of the statements that you made is that Mr.
4 DeWald had never complimented the group as a whole.
l 5 Do you recall stating -- saying something to that 6 effect?
7 A This is true.
8 Q All right. You testified that Mr. Seltmann, however, 9 had complimented the group?
10 A I seen it in writing.
11 Q All right. And do you recall what the specifics were of 12 Mr. Seltmann's compliment to the QC group?
( 13 A It said something about good job done or something.
14 It was on the bulletin board.
15 Q Approximately how long ago was that; do you recall?
t 16 A After he became in charge.
17 Q Do you recall when that was?
18 A Well, it wasn't too long ago.
19 Q You also testified that, in your opinion, Mr. DeWald 20 didn't have the respect of the QC Department.
21 Do you recall saying that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q In your opinion, does Mr. Seltmann have the respect of 24 the QC Department?
(} 25 A Do I think Seltmann has the respect?
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1 Q Yes, sir.
2 A I don't know, I don't know.
3 Q All right. Does Mr. Seltmann ask you or any other QC 4 Inspector in your presence regarding how the work is 5 going, do you have any concerns, or words along those 6 lines?
7 A Well, you know, he hasn't really been in charge that 8 long, you know.
9 Q All right. So, then, you, haven't had an adequate 10 opportunity to observe him; would that be fair?
1 11 A You know, he's -- he's -- how long has he been in 12 charge; a couple months? Not very long.
( 13 Q Okay. Have you ever had occasion to go to Mr. Seltmann 14 and ask him about an issue that you had or a question 15 that you had regarding procedures or paper work?
16 A No. I go to my Lead first.
17 Q Okay. And that's according to the --
18 A That's what we're supposed to do.
19 Q All right. That's fine. ,
20 Have you had occasion to go to Mr. Seese with 21 respect to any questions you might have?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q All right. And Mr. Seese is generally responsive to 24 you?
25 A Yeah.
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4839 1 Q All right. Has Mr. Seese ever complimented the QC 2 Inspector work force, to the best of your recollection?
3 A I think he probably has.
4 I can't say he hasn't, but he probably has.
5 0 Okay.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But you don't know if he has 7 or --
8 THE WITNESS: More than likely he has.
9 You don't --
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are you saying that his 11 attitude is such that you think that he might have, but 12 you don't recall?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But you don't know of any 15 instance in which he has; is that it?
16 THE WITNESS: I'm pretty sure he has.
17 I can't say yes, he has on this day, no; but I'm 18 sure he has. He's just that kind of guy.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. You are contrasting 20 his attitude with Mr. DeWald's attitude; is that it?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. I believe he has.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
23 BY MS. KEZELIS:
24 Q And what about Mr. Tony Simile:
25 Do you recall Mr. Simile ever complimenting the QC Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Inspector work force?
2 A I don't know.
3 I don't -- you know, I don't have a problem with 4 Tony Simile --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- you know.
7 Q Let me ask you again --
8 A He's pretty good at giving you information, though.
9 Q Mr. Simile is pretty good at giving you information?
10 A Yeah. I 11 Q Okay.
12 A They have lots of meetings that explain stuff to you.
O 13 If you don't know, you can ask questions.
14 Q Mr. Simile conducts the meeting with his inspectors?
15 A Yeah, yeah. They have regular meetings and they have 16 diagrams.
17 Q And what generally takes place at the meeting Mr. Simile 18 conducts?
19 A Oh, they review procedures and show the changes, how to 20 do them, and et cetera, et cetera.
21 Q Was this something that Mr. Simile instituted when he 22 came on the Braidwood site in August of 1984 or so?
23 A What was the question again?
24 Q Did Mr. Simile institute this procedure, of having
{} 25 meetings to discuss procedure revisions, et cetera, when l
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1 he came on the site?
2 A I believe it's required --
3 Q All right.
4 A -- you know, when a procedure revision comes out.
5 You know, we always --
6 Q It is required that there always be a meeting?
7 A We always have meetings to go over them.
8 Q Do Mr. Simile's meetings consist of something more than 9 merely precedure revisions and discussions about those 10 type of topics?
11 A Well, he's been known to say, well, after the meetings, 12 "How is it going," and et cetera.
O 13 Q So you have found him generally to be receptive; is that 14 correct?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q All right.
17 A I don't have any problem with him.
18 Q All right. Would you characterize him as an effective ,
i 19 manager or supervisor?
20 A Yeah, I think I would. l 21 Q How would you characterize him in terms of his reaction 22 to any questions that a QC Inspector might have?
23 A He'll probably give you an answer. If he didn't know, 24 he would find one for you.
25 Q And -- and have you found him to be a knowledgeable
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1 supe rvisor?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And have you had an opportunity to form an opinion about 4 Mr. Simile's competence as a -- as the Level 3 Welding 5 Inspector --
6 A I think he's pretty smart.
7 Q -- vis-a-vis Mr. Puckett, for example?
8 A I think he's pretty smart.
9 Q Mr. Simile is?
10 A Right.
11 MR. GUILD: Objection. There's no foundation 12 for the second -- the comparative opinion.
O 13 MS. KEZELIS: Oh, your Honor, I believe that 14 there is.
15 I'm asking for his opinion about Mr. Simile as 16 compared to any.other person who has held a supervisory 17 position, Mr. Seltmann, Mr. Seese, Mr. DeWald; and Mr.
18 Puckett --
19 MR. GUILD: Well, he's established --
20 MS. KEZELIS: -- was a Level --
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If we're going to bring in 22 { Mr. Puckett now, we're going to have another line of 23 questioning on that.
24 You are supposed to go in the scope of what the
{} 25 cross examination was; and this is the first mention Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
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1 that I've heard of Mr. Puckett with regard to this 2 witness.
3 Now, if you wanted to ask him that originally, 4 that's --
5 MS. KEZELIS: Well, your Honor, it's also the 6 first time Mr. Simile's name has come up as well.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, so it's appropriate to 8 ask about Mr. Simile.
9 Are you saying this is the first time that --
10 JUDGE COLE: Excuse me.
11 It's the first time she brought it up.
1 12 MR. GUILD: Judge, I think it's -- I have an i 13 objection that goes to the scope of the examination as 14 not proper redirect, but my objection, as stated, was 15 lack of foundation.
16 She's not asked any foundation questions regarding 17 his knowledge or lack thereof with regards to Mr.
18 Puckett.
19 You can't make a comparison with no foundation.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well , I do n ' t --
21 MS. KEZELIS: Let me try to take care of this; 22 and I'll withdraw the ~ prior question.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Of which objection, the one 24 that was just voiced now; but we've had another 25 objection on a different basis, and are you going to
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1 cure that?
2 I don't see how you can.
3 We're going way beyond the scope of redirect 4 examination.
5 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And just to make my ruling 7 more specific, what was brought out on cross was Mr.
8 DeWald's management style.
9 Now, you are trying to bring in the fact that the 10 management has changed and the style has changed.
11 MS. KEZELIS: Your Honor, I believe the first 12 question that Mr. Guild asked was whether the witness /
O 13 had had an opportunity to observe the management of the 14 QC Department as a whole.
15 He then limited the remainder of his questions to 16 Mr. DeWald.
17 I believe, on my examination, I'm entitled to ask 18 about the other members of the QC management.
19 MR. GUILD: And the purpose -- the point of 20 my objection, Mr. Chairman, is if she wants to establish 21 a foundation with regard to Mr. Puckett, that is outside 22 the scope of proper cross examination.
23 ,
His name has not come up. There's no foundation 24 for making the comparative assessment.
(} 25 If she wants to ask about his opinion about Ronntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
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1 Simile --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, okay.
3 I don't believe that she does have to lay that 4 foundation. You can explore that on recross.
5 The question, really, is was Mr. Puckett within 6 that group of management that you referred to in your 7 cross examination, Mr. Guild?
8 MR. GUILD: It was not my intention to open 9 the Puckett door, Mr. Chairman.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, now, the quearLon is 11 was he part of QC management at that time?
12 MS. KEZELIS: He was hired to be a Level 3 O 13 Welding Inspector.
14 MR. GUILD: He exercised no management 15 authority.
16 It's clearly beyond the scope of my question to 17 bring Mr. Puckett into this.
18 MS. KEZELIS: Mr. Simile was hired to replace 19 Mr. Puckett and Mr. Simile is management.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, okay.
21 My understanding of the question was that it went i
22 as far as Mr. DeWald.
23 Now, I don't think we have the transcript; and your 24 questions are proper to compare current management to 25 Mr. DeWald, but I don't believe the original question
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1 was a' broad question about QC management. I believe it
. 2 was directed to Mr. DeWald.
3 Now, I can be wrong; and I'll consult with the 4 Board right now and have their opinion as to whether I'm 5 wrong.
6 (There followed a discussion outside the 7 record.)
8 MR. BERRY: Your Honor, Mr. Chairman.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let me understand your 10 position -- oh, yes, Mr. Berry.
11 MR. BERRY: It's my recollection that the 12 question was asked by Mr. Guild ~of Mr. Rolan as to 13 whether he had an opportunity to observe the operation 14 of the Comstock management.
15 I suspect that Mr. Guild's intention may have been 16 more limited: but the question, as I recollect, was more 17 general.
18 It is under that question --
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Wait now. We are talking 20 about a foundation question that was asked about whether 21 he had an opportunity to observe management and then a 22 later question about Mr. DeWald's management style.
23 -
Is that what you are telling me was the question?
24 MR. GUILD: Precisely, Judge.
25 MR. BERRY: That's my racollection.
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4847 d(m 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Then Mr. Puckett is outside 2 the scope of the Cross Examination. There was no 3 questioning directed towards management's style as a 4 whole.
5 It was just a question as to whether he was 6 familiar with it. He answered yes and then they went 7 onto the question of Mr. DeWald's management style.
8 Now, I don't think at this point -- now, if you 9 want to compare later management with Mr. DeWald, we 10 will accept that as within t..a scope of that Cross 11 Examination and within the scope of your Redirect; but 12 if you are going to bring in Mr. Puckett, where Mr.
13 Puckett wasn't there in the first place, it is beyond 14 the scope.
15 Now, do you want to ask the Board for an allowance 16 to bring up matters that you neglected to ask within 17 your Direct Examination?
18 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, your Honor.
19 If your ruling is that the topic on which I had 20 embarked was outside the scope of the examination that I 21 am permitted to conduct, then I would ask for additional J
22 limited Direct Examination with respect to a comparison 23 of Mr. Simile to Mr. Puckett. '
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. You want to bring in r 25 the question of Mr. Puckett's management now?
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1 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir, his competence.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
3 MS. KEZELIS: His competence in the 4 management of the Welding Department.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We will allow you to 6 open that topic now.
7 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, sir.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are welcome.
9 MS. KEZELIS: I believe I had a question 10 pending and I would ask the Court Reporter to --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Now, in this case I think 12 you will have to forget about that question, becau'se 13 there is an objection; and it's a valid one.
14 Let's begin with Mr. Puckett and lay the proper 15 foundation.
16 MS. KEZELIS: All right. That's all right.
17 BY MS. KEZELIS:
18 Q Mr. Rolan, during the spring and summer of 1984, did you 19 have an opportunity to observe Mr. Worley Puckett at 20 Braidwood? !
21 A Yeah.
22 Q All right. And Mr. Puckett was employed by Comstock at 23 Braidwood from May of 1984 through about August of 1984, 24 is that correct, to the best of your recollection?
25 A 90 days.
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4849 1 Q All right. During the course of Mr. Puckett's 2 employment by Comstock at Braidwood, did you have an 3 oppottunity to engage in any discussions with Mr.
4 Puckett?
5 A Sure.
6 Q All right. Did any of those discussions concern welding 7 issues?
8 A Well, my personal?
9 Q Yes, sir.
10 A I know for a fact that he had concerns over the welding 11 program, certification, et cetera, et cetera.
12 Now, that doesn't surprise me; but he used to talk 13 about it but talk cheap. You know, he would talk but he 14 wouldn't do anything.
15 You know, I think mainly what that was was there 16 was a conflict between Irv and him, is what I really 17 think it was.
18 Plus, on the other hand, he probably needed a place 19 for Tony Simile. You know what I mean? It sounds like 20 a good way to get him in.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rol'an, I think you 22 really ought to try to answer the direct questions.
23 Right now the one that is pending is whether Mr.
24 Puckett ever discussed welding issues with you.
{} 25 Did he personally discuss --
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1 THE WITNESS: Sure. He was the welding 2 supervisor at the time.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAU: He did then discuss those 4 issues?
5 THE WITNESS: Sure. If we had a question 6 with welds or something, you could ask him; but he 7 wasn't like Tony Simile, though.
8 Tony Simile is a lot brighter.
9 BY MS. KEZELIS:
10 0 Did Mr. Puckett conduct any meetings with the welding 11 inspectors regarding procedures or procedure revisions?
12 A He probably did, because we have to.
O 13 Q Do you recall attending any meeting which Mr. Puckett 14 chaired?
15 A I don't know.
16 What year was that, '84?
17 Q 1984, sir.
18 A I give up. We probably did but, you know, I don't 19 remembe r.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You don't recall any?
21 THE WITNESS: We probably did,'though.
22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Do you recall the substance of any topic that might have 24 come up at any meeting that you may or may not recall
{} 25 regarding procedure revisions that Mr. Puckett chaired?
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4851 O MR. GUILD: Objection, objection.
1 2 The witness stated he can't recall attending any 3 such meetings. He is now supplying a meeting that he 4 can't recall having a attended.
5 MS. KEZELIS: No, no, I don't think that is 6 entirely his testimony.
7 Let me rephrase the question.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 BY MS. KEZELIS:
, 10 0 When you said that Mr. Puckett wasn't like Mr. Simile, 11 what did you mean, Mr. Rolan?
12 A' I think Mr. Simile is a lot brighter. ,
13 Q And on what do you base that?
i 14 A Because when Mr. Simile came in, they changed everything 15 around.
16 I mean, we have it really rather easy to go out and 17 do your work. You have everything in front of you right 18 there. They have to fill out everything.
j 19 It's not like you -- it's not like it used to be, 20 where you take hand-folded drawings out there and you 21 hope for the best. Now it's much, much -- you know, I
22 they have to have everything correct before they even 23 mail it to you.
1 24 It's much, much more detailed. It's a lot 25 different.
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4852 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you are basing your 2 answer then on the fact that the situation that exists 3 with regard to making the inspections is better now 4 while Mr. Simile is here Shan it was in the past when 5 Mr. Puckett was there?
6 Is that what you are basing your answer on?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. There really wasn't much 8 change when Worley was here. It was the same old thing.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are saying as to Mr.
10 Puckett, then, there were no changes made in the 11 department when Mr. Puckett was there but there are 12 changes being made now?
O 13 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't really say.so in 14 welding. It was the same. You know, you guessed at 15 what you got.
16 It's not like it is now.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am trying to pin down what 18 your answer is and what your answer is based on.
19 Tell me if it's true, if it's correct, what I am 20 saying now, that your answer so far with regard to the 21 difference between Mr. Simile and Mr. Puckett, as far as 22 Mr. Simile being bright, brighter than Mr. Puckett, is 23 based on the fact that there are more changes taking 24 place now --
25 THE WITNESS: Well, no.
(]}
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- under Mr. Simile than 2 there were under Mr. Puckett?
3 THE WITNESS: Don't get me wrong. I thought 4 Worley was an all right guy and everything but I think 5 as a supervisor Tony simile is much better.
6 You know, he has made the welding and configuration 7 work fit together much easier. He made the whole 8 program changed around. It's much more --
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's what I am trying to 10 get at.
11 The basis for your answer is the fact of the 12 welding program as it exists now --
O 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah.
4 14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- and the way it existed 15 under Mr. Puckett; is that right?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. It's much more 17 improved now.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
19 BY MS. KEZELIS:
20 Q Is it your understanding, Mr. Rolan, that it was Mr.
21 Simile who was the cause of these changes in the welding 22 program?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you have an opportunity to form an opinion about Mr.
{) 25 Simile's knowledge of Comstock procedures as opposed to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Mr. Puckett's knowledge and authoritativeness about the 2 Comstock procedures?
3 A What was the question?
4 Q Did you have an opportunity to form an opinion regarding 5 Mr. Simile's knowledge and f amiliarity with Comstock 6 welding procedures as opposed to Mr. Puckett's knowledge 7 and familiarity regarding Comstock procedures?
8 A Tony is still there.
9 Q I am sorry?
10 A Tony is still there.
11 Q I understand that.
12 I am asking you to compare the knowledge of those O 13 two individuals with respect to procedures, welding 14 procedures at the time -- well, for example, at the time 15 immediately prior to Mr. Puckett's departure.
16 A I don't know. I don't think I understand the question.
17 Q Okay. Did you have an opportunity while Mr. Puckett was 18 present to form an opinion about his knowledge of and 19 familiarity with Comstock welding procedures?
20 A I wouldn't say he was a dummy, by any means.
21 Q Okay.
22 A You know, it's not like he is an idiot.
23 It was more I thought, you know, he knew what he 24 was doing but he was more like a talker than a doer, my
{} 25 own personal opinion.
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() i 1 Q And --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: By that do you mean that he 3 would --
4 THE WITNESS: He said, "Yes, this is messed 5 up."
6 And we said, "Okay, fine, this is messed up. How 7 do we fix it," and he never came up with an answer.
8 I don't know whether it's because he didn't get any 9 support; but, you know -- irrelevant.
10 BY MS. KEZELIS:
11 Q With respect to Mr. Simile, would you characterize him 12 as a doer rather than a talker?
(:)
13 A Sure.
1 14 0 And what is the basis for your agreement with that 15 statement?
16 A Well, for one, it's a heck of lot easier to do your work 17 now. You have got everything in front of you; 18 everything you need is right there.
19 Q That, again, is something that Mr. Simile has changed in 20 the welding program?
21 A Yeah. They rearranged everything.
22 Q' He has reorganized the manner in which yesi conduct your 23 inspections out in the field; is that correct?
24 A Made it easier.
-l
{} 25 0 And he has consolidated aspects of your inspections?
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1 A Yes.
2 0 And he has revised the procedures and made them more 3 understandable and easier to follow?
4 A This is true.
5 0 And he has changed the format of the procedures 6 themselves, hasn't he?
7 A I would say the format is still relatively the same.
8 They just, you know, made them basically easier.
9 Q And he has simplified the manner in which you have to 10 conduct your welding inspections?
1 11 As you mentioned, you don't have to carry as many 12 papers out to the field; is that correct?
(G/ 13 A Well, everything you need is right there, because they 14 tell you what details to take; you just take them all 15 kith you.
l'6 It's not like you have 200 drawings with you at a 17 time like we used to.
18 0 And the form or the document that you take out now is 19 called what?
20 A WIR. .
21 Q And is the WIR something -- well, what does WIR stand 22 for, for the record?
23 A Welding Installation Record.
24 Q Is that something Mr. Simile created, to the best of 25 your knowledge?
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1 A It came when he came.
2 Q Is there anything else that you can tell the Board and 3 the parties with respect to the changes that you recall 4 sitting here today that Mr. Simile has executed in the 5 welding program at Comstock?
6 A Not really.
7 Q In response to, questioning from Mr. Guild you or Mr.
8 Guild -- and I don't recall which -- mentioned the term 9 " quota."
10 Do you recall testifying about the concept of 11 quotas?
12 A I believe so.
13 Q Do you recall that the subject came up in connection 14 with a question f rom Mr. Guild regarding Friday 15 afternoon meetings that Mr. DeWald had conducted?
16 A This is true.
17 Q Did the word " quota" itself come up during the course of 18 any such Friday afternoon meeting?
19 A I don't think the word " quota" you want.to use.
20 Q I am sorry?
21 A I don't believe the word " quota" is what you want to 22 use.
23 Minimum sounds more like it.
24 Q All right. Is it your testimony, then, that Mr. DeWald 25 did not use the word " quota" at any Friday afternoon
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1 meeting that you recall?
2 A No. Well, you know, they used to try that. They tried 3 that deal, you know, the quota system; but it doesn't 4 work.
5 Q Mr. Rolan --
6 A Okay. Go ahead.
7 Q -- you are jumping ahead a little bit. I want to ask 8 you to answer my question, and that is:
9 Did Mr. DeWald specifically use the word " quota,"
10 to the best of your recollection, at any Friday 11 afternoon meeting?
12 A How about minimum?
13 Q All right. Your answer then, I take it, is no, that the 14 word --
15 A Right.
16 0 -- " quota" was not used?
17 A Right.
18 Q And to the best of your recollection, the word " minimum" 19 was used?
20 A I guess so.
21 Q Do you recall what specifically Mr. DeWald said when he 22 used the word " minimum"?
23 A " Minimum?"
24 Q Yes, sir.
25 A Oh, I think they said they wanted like eight hangers a C.))
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l day or something like that.
2 It doesn't work, because some people can get eight 3 conduit hangers done in a day and some people can get 20 4 done in a day and then sometines you can only get two 5 cable pan hangers done in a month.
6 It doesn't work.
7 Q First of all, you said "they."
8 Were you referring to somebody other than Mr.
9 DeWald or were you responding to my question about Mr.
10 DeWald and you were merely referring to him, "They said 11 a minimum"? -
12 A Management.
13 Q Did somebody other than Mr. DeWald use the word 14 " minimum" when referring to inspectiot.s or the number of 15 inspections?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Did the --
18 A It didn't work, anyway.
19 Q Did the topic come up more than one time at a Friday 20 afternoon meeting, to the best of your recollection?
21 A You keep asking the same question; and these are like 22 years ago, you know.
23 It doesn't work. You know, minimum inspections do 24 not work.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Rolan, you don't Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 1 know everything that is invclved here and you can't 2 assume that the question isn't directed towards what is 3 useful information here.
4 Now, if the question asks you about the topics that 5 came up during the meeting, that may be what is 6 important to us, as to what was said at the meeting, not 7 as to whether what was said was appropriate.
8 Do you understand? We really right now are trying 9 to find out what was said at the meetings, and that's 10 what you ought to concentrate on.
11 BY MS. KEZELIS:
12 Q Mr. Rolan, do you recall --
( 13 A How about if I say I don't know?
14 Q That's fine.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, if you don't recall, 16 that is the only proper answer to give.
17 A (Continuing.) I can' t remember; I can't remembe r.
18 BY MS. KEZELIS:
19 Q You said in response to an earlier question of mine that ,
t 20 you thought the minimum they may have mentioned was
! 21 8 eight hangers per day or words to that effect?
22 A Yes. That used to be the norm.
23 Q What type of hangers did you understand that to be?
i 24 A Well, the ones I always did were conduit hangers a lot
,p 25 of time.
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l C:)
l Q Did you understand there to be imposed a minimum merely 2 as to hangers?
3 A Merely -- only hangers?
4 y Yes, sir.
5 A Well, overall I use it for -- it's in general guidelines 1
6 for inspections in general.
7 Q You used that yourself as a guideline; is that what you 8 said?
9 A Well, that's a minimum.
10 You know, it really does depend. You know, you can 11 do eight terminations or eight RWR's. You can't do that 12 with conduit. What are you going to do, 200 feet a day?
() 13 That won't work.
14 Q Let me ask you this: When you said you thought they 15 wanted a minimum of eight hangers per day --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- do you recall whether or not it was the number eight 18 that was used or whether eight hangers were identified 19 as a minimum, eight terminations were identified as a 20 minimum, et cetera?
21 A I don't know.
22 I just used to do -- we used to do one a day -- one 23 an hour minimum, I remember that. If we had more, it 24 worked out.
25 Q When you say " minimum" then in the answer you just gave O
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4862 1 me, do you mean that that is how you paced yourself as 2 to the amount of work you thought you should perform in 3 a day?
4 A No. It means that if I did -- if I turned in at least 5 eight hangers a day, nobody was going to say anything.
6 That's what it means. If I turn in at least eight, you 7 know, at least one an hour, nobody is going to say 8 nothing to you.
9 If you turn in two hangers a day, they are going to 10 be upset.
11 Q Let me return again to the concept of minimum and a 12 Friday afternoon meeting.
( 13 All right?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Let me ask a question first.
16 Can you recall anything else that was said with 17 respect to that minimum that you have just been 18 mentioning at a Friday afternoon meeting or at any other 19 time, for that matter?
20 A You know, I remember they said something about they 21 wanted so many done; but to me I always took.it, you 22 kn ow , they were asking for, you know, a dollar's worth 23 of work for a dollar's pay.
24 They did try this minimum garbage, like so many; 25 but that didn't work, because it's illogical. It only Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 lasted like a week.
2 Q All right, all right. To the best of your recollection l
3 then, this concept of minimum lasted about a week; is 4 that what you just said?
5 A Yes. It didn't last long.
6 Q How did you come to understand that the enncept of a i
7 minimum would no longer apply after a week?
8 A Well, it didn't work.
9 Q And how did you come to understand that it didn't work?
10 A It's illogical.
11 Q What took place, if anything, after that week that you 12 recall with respect to the concept of a minimum?
);
13 A We just did what we could do.
14 Q Do you recall whetner or not at another Friday afternoon i
j 15 meeting Mr. DeWald said anything to the effect of, i
16 " Minimums won't work. Do" --
17 A No, I know he wouldn't say that. I know he wouldn't say 18 that. Ain't no way he's going to say that.
19 Q Would it be fair to say, Mr. Rolan, in a lot of your 20 testimony so far, that minimums don't work, that you
- 21 ignored whatever you understood to be a minimum and 22 merely performed the work that you felt capable of 1
l 23 doing?
24 A Yeah.
l
- 2,5 Q Because, as you have just testified, minimums don't
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V 1 work; is that correct?
2 A They don't work.
3 Q All right. And some inspections take longer to perform 4 than others; is that correct?
/
5 A This is true.
6 Q Did you have occasion to discuss this topic with other 7 QC Inspectors?
8 A It was like, "Well, how many did you do today?"
9 They would say, "Well." I would say, "Well, it's 10 all right with me. If you can get away with it, go for 11 it. They ain't going to say nothing if you turn in 12 eight inspections a day. "
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\ 13 Q Did anybody ever say anything to you -- first of all, l
14 did you ever turn in less than eight inspections a day?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. Do you recall how many times you turned in 17 less than eight inspections a day?
18 A It depends, yes. I have records of them all.
19 Q Did it happen fairly regularly or fairly frequently?
20 A No. It really depends on what job I am on, really. It 21 depends on what kind of work you are doing.
22 If you are doing a cable crew, you know, you work 23 as fast as they go, you know.
24 If you are doing in-process, you are going as fast 25 as they go; and you know how fast electricians go.
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1 Q Were you ever reprimanded by any member of Comstock 2 management on any of the occasions that you turned in 3 less than eight inspections per day?
4 A No.
5 Q You also testified in respor3e to questioning from Mr.
6 Guild regarding this topic of quotas or, as we have now 7 been discussing them, as minimums, that you understood 8 Mr. DeWald to really mean that what he wanted was a 9' dollar's work for a dollar's pay.
10 Do you recall making a statement to that effect?
11 A Well, that's the general assumption that I get.
12 You know, you can't ask for more than that.
13 Q Okay. And that -- well, let me ask you this:
14 Was that your understanding of what Mr. DeWald 15 wanted when he --
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that was your understanding of what he wanted when 18 he made whatever statements he may have made at Friday 19 afternoon meetings?
20 A Yeah. I mean, I turned it in and they don't say nothing 21 to me.
22 Q All right. Did Mr. DeWald use words to the effect of, 23 "I would like a dollar's work for a dollar's pay," or, 24 "I would like a day's work for a day's pay," or words to 25 that effect?
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4866 1 A I don't know. I can't remember.
2 Q Okay. You also testified in response to questioning 3 from Mr. Guild regarding backlog.
4 A Uh-huh.
5 0 I believe you said something along the lines of, "There 6 is always a backlog"; is that correct?
7 A This is true.
8 Q Let's be sure we understand our terms.
9 What do you define a backlog to be, Mr. Rolan?
10 A A backlog is any installation that is more than 30 days 11 old.
12 Q So it's a 30-day time period.
( 13 When an installation has taken place more than 30 14 days ago, then the necessary inspection on that 15 installation is said to be backlogged; is that correct?
16 A Right.
17 Q Okay.
18 A There may not be any backlog now, but at one time there 19 were lots of them.
20 Q All right. And there was a backlog, was there not, in, 21 for example, August of 1983 when Mr. DeWald became QC 22 Manager?
23 A Was there not a backlog?
24 Q There was, wasn't there?
25 A Oh, yeah.
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4867 1 Q All right. Do you recall when that backlog of 2 inspections was completed?
3 A No.
4 Q You don't have any specific recollection?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you attempt to keep yourself informed of the status 7 of the backlog?
8 A I could care less.
9 Q Would it be fair to say then, Mr. Rolan, that when you 10 testified that there is always a backlog at the site, 11 that you may have been merely repeating rumors that you 12 have'been hearing?
( 13 A No, no, no, no. I don't know if there is a backlog now.
I 14 There may not be one now.
15 Q All right.
16 A But we have been here five-and-a-half years and -- let's 17 see. There probably -- there may not have been a 18 backlog for the last six months.
19 Q I am sorry.
20 A There may be a backlog now.
l 21 Q I did not hear --
22 A There may not be a backlog now but there may be ,one now, 23 too.
24 If there is one, I don't know. There isn't one in 25 my department.
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1 Q All right. And you have already testified that you 2 didn't bother to keep yourself informed or you didn't 3 care to keep yourself informed about the status of 4 backlog at any given time; is that correct?
5 A Well, the backlog usually was always in welding and 6 configuration, normally, right.
7 At one time we did have a backlog in terminations, 8 RWR's; but we got rid of all of that. ,
9 I believe now it's gone.
10 0 Would it be fair to say then --
i 11 A If we do have a backlog, it's small now.
i 12 Q You just appeared to profess some familiarity with any 13 backlog that may have existed in terminations and RWR's.
14 Is that something that you paid more attention to 15 than other areas of inspection?
16 A Yes. That's mainly what I do now.
17 -
Q And the areas that you haven't performed inspections in f
18 you haven't kept yourself informed on about the status
(
19 of any backlog?
20 A Right.
21 Q Is that correct?
22 A Right.
23 Q The topic of a thousand or more welds documented on a 24 single inspection report by Mr. DeWald also came up in f r
25 response to questioning from Mr. Guild.
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O 1 Do you recall that subject, sir?
i 2 A Yes, he asked about it.
i 3 Q You also testified, I believe, that was a rumor or j 4 something that was discussed among the QC Inspectors; is 5 that correct?
i i 6 A More or less a rumor, yes.
7 Q You also testified about the grid system, that you
, 8 understood -- well, that you, in fact, used yourself 9 when you were a QC Inspector earlier on in your career i 10 at Braidwood; is that correct?
11 A We never did the grid system.
f 12 Q You did not, all right.
( 13 A That was before my time.
I j 14 Q That was before your time, all right.
, 15 But that was aur understanding with respect to the i
l 16 manner in which 3 pections had been performed in the
{ 17 past?
l 18 A I wasn't there.
l l 19 Q You testified, did you not, Mr. Rolan, that in your
! 20 earlier years as a QC Inspector at Braidwood you used a 21 notebook?
i 1 22 A We all did.
! 23 Q And you would document the inspections you performed and i
24 you would then ' return to the office at a later time to 25 write those out; is that correct?
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1 A Usually at the end of the day or we would go to like a 2 lunch table or something, you know, somewhere where you 3 could sit down and write all of your forms out.
4 0 Is that something that you always did every day?
5 A Yes.
6 0 When the topic of the thousand or more welds on a single 7 inspection report of Mr. DeWald's has come up in any 8 conversations you have had with QC Inspectors about it, 9 have you ever explained to any of them what you had 10 explained earlier today, namely that you would conduct 11 inspections in the field and then write what you found 12 in thi little notebook and compile the results on an I
13 inspection report later?
14 A No. That's only my personal opinion. That's the only 15 way I could think of that he could do that.
16 Q In terms of writing up an inspection report later, that 17 is something you testified you personally did; is that 18 correct?
19 A Uh-huh -- well, no. That's like the grid system. You 20 know, it's got to be. That's got to be the only way 21 they do it.
22 0 My question was whether you ever explained that to any 23 other QC Inspector.
24 A No. That's the only way I could think they did it.
25 0 All right. I don't recall at this point in time, Mr..
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i 1 Rolan; but I believe you testified you became a QC 4 , 2 Inspector for Comstock at Braidwood in 1981.
3 Is that correct?
j- 4 A Yes.
i 1 5 Q Was Mr. DeWald employed as a Level 2 QC Inspector at j 6 that time, Mr. Rolan?
l 7 A Yes, he was.
8 Q Did you have occasion to see him performing inspections 9 out in the field during that time period?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you have -- did you at that time have -- occasion to i 12 observe Mr. DeWald performing the documentation for any
} .
- 13 inspections for which he had been responsible?
14 A I believe I have seen him fill out Form 19's, yes.
l 15 Q Based on any of your observations of Mr. DeWald's ,
i 16 performance in 1981 when you were both Level 2 QC ,
l 17 Inspectors at Braidwood, did anything you observed lead 18 you to believe that Mr. DeWald could have been 19 . falsifying any inspection reports --
t 20 A No.
21 0 -- that he was executing?
i
! 22 No?
! 23 A No, I don't believe so, no.
24 Q And would your observations of Mr. DeWald during that I
25 time period lead you to believe that that is not Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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1 something that Mr. DeWald would have done as a QC 2 Inspector?
3 A No.
4 Q. Continuing for a moment on the topic of this thousand or 5 more welds documented on a single inspection report of 6 Mr. DeWald's, do you recall Mr. DeWald ever discussing 7 that topic himself?
8 A No.
9 0 It would be fair to say then that Mr. DeWald never in 10 your presence said anything to the effect of, "Look, 11 guys, I can do a thousand in a day. You ought to be 12 able to do some more," or words along those lines?
,13 A No, I can't --
14 Q No?
15 A No. You are --
16 Q All right. Mr. Rolan, it would be fair to say, wouldn't 17 it, that you wouldn't believe him if he said he had 18 performed a thousand in a day?
19 A I would laugh at him.
20 Q Because that is not something, as you testified already, 21 that necessarily is accomplishable in a single day; is 22 that correct?
23 A I can't see how you could do a thousand welds a day.
24 Q Let's turn now to the topic sf the Pearl Harbor file 25 that you and Mr. Guild discussed earlier today.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4873 1 You testified, Mr. Rolan, that it was your 2 understanding that Mr. Saklak kept it in order to 3 protect himself; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 0 All right. And that you physically had seen this file; 6 is that correct?
7 A I have seen it, yes.
8 Q All right. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the 9 contents of that file?
10 A No. It's not like I snooped through it, no.
11 Q Did you ever have occasion to see it lying open?
12 A I don't believe -- I don't believe I can say yes.
13 Q All right. It was a manila folder?
14 A I believe it was a manila folder.
15 Q And you said it was marked PPearl Harbor" on it; is that 16 correct?
17 A I believe so.
18 It was like in a drawer.
19 Q To the best of your knowledge, did Mr. Saklak ever use 20 it to protect himself?
21 A Did he use it to protect himself?
22 0 Yes, sir.
23 A That's what it was for.
24 0 Well, you are not answering my question.
25 You had testified, did you not, that Mr. Saklak had r3
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4874 1 stated that he was keeping this file in order to protect 2 himself?
3 A It was -- I can't say that he said he was keeping this 4 file to protect himself; but why else would he call it 5 the Pearl Harbor file and put these weird things in 6 there?
7 0 What does the topic of Pearl Harbor mean to you?
8 A Obviously, he is out to -- if they were going to jack 9 with him, he is going to pull something out and drop a 10 bomb on them.
11 That's the only thing that I can think of.
12 Q So it was --
' 13 A You know, it was for self-protection.
14 I am sure he had files on everybody.
15 Q Did Mr. Saklak ever state to you or state in your 16 presence what the specific contents of that file were?
17 A Well, I'll tell you what: There was a time when I was 18 the equipment leader, that we wrote up Sargent & Lundy.
19 They detailed out all of these grounding details of 20 hcw they wanted all of their main equipment grounded.
21 We said, "Okay, fine." ;
22 We wrote them up left and right. Every day they 23 got a nonconformance on the grounding, every day, every 24 day, every piece of equipment had one.
25 After a while, S & L just said, " Hey, what is l l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4875 1 this?" And they came all over and they said, " Hey, 2 don't worry about that. This is typical."
3 We are saying, " Yeah, but it doesn't look-like that 4 detail," and they said, " Typical. Don't worry about 5 it."
6 And so that went in the Pearl Harbor file and not 7 for the -- S & L said it was okay; Edison said it was 8 okay.
9 It's their plant. You do what they want.
10 Q This related to grounding; is that correct, Mr. Rolan?
11 A Yes, you know, grounding. It's a non-safety-type deal 12 but it's still required.
13 0 It's not a safety related --
14 A It's part of safety-related inspections but it's a 15 non-safety thing.
16 0 It's a non-safety-related installation or attribute?
17 A It's part of safety-related inspection but it's a i 18 non-safety item, period.
19 Q Is that the only occasion on --
20 A That's the only thing I know for a fact that was in 21 there, but I am sure that everything else was in there.
22 Q What did you understand to be in Mr. Saklak's file with 23 respect to this incident?
24 A He had documentation of the meeting we had. I 25 Q And that was to cover whatever measures he took Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 thereafter --
2 A Right.
3 Q -- to the best of your understanding?
4 A Right, right.
5 Q Was this the only situation that you can recall in which 6 some mention was made of the number of NCR's that were 7 being issued by you?
8 A (No response.)
9 Q You testified that you were writing up an NCR at least 10 once a day for this.
11 A Oh, yeah. We wrote zillions of them -- not zillions but 12 more than any other group in that short a period of 13 time, yes.
14 Q All right. Can you recall any other occasion on which 15 anybody discussed with you the number of NCR's that you 16 were issuing?
17 A No, not really.
18 Q All right. In connection with this incident, Mr. Rolan, 19 Mr. Saklak didn't criticize you for issuing these NCR's, 20 did he?
21 A No. He can't. .
22 0 It was another group entirely that came over to talk 23 with the group of you about these NCR's?
24 A Yes; S & L.
25 Q It was Sargent & Lundy; is that correct?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4877 1 A Yeah.
2 Q But it wasn't Mr. Saklak --
3 A No.
4 0 -- who said anything along those lines?
5 A No, no.
6 Q I believe I asked you a question earlier, Mr. Rolan, 7 regarding Mr. Saklak's use of the Pearl Harbor file.
8 My question to you had been: Did Mr. Saklak ever 9 use it to cover himself, to the best of your knowledge?
10 A No, I don't think so. He may have. .
11 Q You did not observe any incident in which, for example, 12 Mr. Saklak said something that led you to believe that 13 he was pulling a document out 'of his Pearl Harbor file 14 in order to establish a fact?
15 A I can't say he did; but, you know, I don't know.
16 Q All right.
17 A I know he had the so-called file, and I have seen it, 18 but I can't say he ever used it.
19 0 You also mentioned a man by the name of Jim Purrazzo, I 20 believe?
21 A Jim.
22 Q From Commonwealth Edison Company?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And on a particular day the entirety of the QC work 25 force was out inspecting hangers?
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1 A Backlog.
2 Q Okay. This was backlogged hangers?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. I believe you testified it was.your understanding 5 that every available body was out there inspecting?
6 A Yes, pretty much so.
7 Q That would be every certified QC Inspector, certified in 8 that particular area?
9 A In that area, yes.
10 Q Do you recall when this took place?
11 A It was on a Saturday.
12 Q How did you come to have an understanding about the 13 number of inspections that were completed that day?
14 A Jim wrote it on the wall.
15 Q Mr. Purrazzo of Edison wrote it on the wall?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you recall how many inspectors there were?
18 A How many inspectors or inspections?
19 Q How many inspectors there were on that Saturday.
20 A How many were working that day?
21 Q Yes, sir.
22 A I think there was about maybe 25 or 30. I am not sure.
23 But what they did was they had people who were not 24 really certified in welding go with them and what they 25 would do is they would carry -- you know, they would .
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j 1 carry everything for the person that was doing the 2 actual inspections and they were kind of like their ,
3 gofer, hand them a print and write down information.
4 They would tell them what to write down and they i
5 would write it all down and then we would sit down and 6 write it all out.
7 That's the reason we got so many done in a day. I .'e 8 had guys that would go with us.
]
9 Q The purpose of all of you coming in that Saturday, to 10 the best of your understanding, was in order to attack a i
i 11 backlog of hanger inspections?
12 A Yes, it was an attempt to get the backlog number down.
13 Q And there was no violation, to the best of your 14 knowledge, of any Comstock procedures by using 15 assistants to carry documents for you and so on, was 16 there?
i l 17 A No. They weren't inspecting. They were just gofers, i
i 18 more or less.
19 Q And that speeded up the process, significantly, didn't i 20 it?
21 A Right. You did all the work. They just carried your i
j 22 prints for you and handed stuff to you and wrote notes
- 23 down for you.
)
i 24 Q All right. Would it be fair to say then that -- let me j 25 ask you this:
I l
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1 What specifically did Mr. Purrazzo write on the 2 bulletin board or posterboard? i 3 A It was on the wall. He just wrote like a date and so 4 many hangers done, " Good job."
5 It was just like a little -- a little "at a boy" l
6 type of deal, you know.
7 It's painted over now, you know. l 8 Q During the course of that day's work, did you feel any c
9 urging to overlook quality for quantity?
10 A No, no. Don't worry about that, no.
11 Q In other words, you did not, did you?
12 A It doesn't bother me to put a hold tag on it. I could 13 care less, you know. I go back and do it over, I get 1
14 paid again.
15 Q So even though you all understood you had a lot of work 16 to do out there, you, nevertheless, performed those 17 inspections to the best of your ability?
18 A If you put a hold tag on it, you have still done it. It 19 'ain't no big deal.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, you really ought 21 to try to answer the question.
22 THE WITNESS: She is asking me --
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: She asked you twice.
24 You didn't feel any pressure to --
25 THE WITNESS: No. They wanted you to get as
)
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1 many as possible, this is true.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But you did the inspections 1.
3 prope rly?
'4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. It doesn't bother me l
i 5 any to hang a hold tag than it does to buy it off.
, 6 BY MS. KEZELIS: -
7 0 When you say, " hang a hold tag on something," do you 8 mean to reject an installation?
9 A Yes, you have to hang a hold tag when you reject 10 something.
11 Q That is for rejecting an item; is that correct?
12 , A That is normal procedure. You hang a hold tag when you 13 reject it.
4 14 Q When you use the term, "to buy something off" --
l 15 A You are accepting it.
16 0 -- you use that to mean you are accepting the f 17 installation?
i i 18 A Yes.
a
, 19 Q You also testified that Mr. Saklak had engaged in bird 20 dogging or excessive hounding.
21 Do you recall those terms?
! 22 A Yeah.
i l 23 Q To the best of your recollection, were the incidents 24 that you observed of Mr. Saklak bird dogging or hounding 25 QC Inspectors involving incidents where the inspectors i
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! 1 1 approached by him were goofing off in the American way? i 2 A Well, actually, that was his main idea. His main idea 4
- 3 was to run out there and see if he could catch somebody 4 goofing off.
5 Q That's what your observations led you to believe?
l I
6 A Well, that's what he was doing. He was out there ;
I j 7 looking around to see if he could catch somebody goofing l 8 off. I i
9 Q Did you observe him catclung people goofing off? i 10 A I don't follow him around.
11 Q Were you present when Mr. Saklak -- were you present and 12 did you observe at any time Mr. Saklak hounding somebody 13 because they were goofing off?
1 14 A No.
15 Q You did not observe any such incident?
16 A Well, I don't follow Rick around, you know; but all the 17 -- they all do that. They wonder around.
18 As soon as you stop to smoke a cigarette or 19 something, they walk around the corner. You could be 20 hanging by your ankles from the ceiling all day, as soon 21 as you stop, they come around the corner.
j 22 Q Did Mr. Saklak ever bird dog or excessively hound you 23 because you were writing up an excessive number of 24 construction defects or placing too many hold tags -- I t
25 A No.
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4 (S) l 1 0 -- on installations?
I
! 2 A Uh-uh.
i 3 Q Did you ever observe Mr. Saklak bird dogging or l
4 excessively hounding any other QC Inspector because he 5 or she was identifying an excessive number of i
l 6 construction defects or was issuing too many NCR's or 1
7 placing too many hold tags on any installations?
8 A Oh, I don't believe so.
] 9 Q Would it be fair to say then that your understanding of 10 Mr. Saklak's bird dogging or excessive hounding, as a 11 general rule, was with respect to trying to see if QC l 12 Inspectors were goofing off?
13 A Were doing what?
14 Q Were goofing off. !
i 15 A That's a general assumption; but, I mean, you turn in i
16 eight or ten inspections a day, you are safe.
J 17 Q All right. l
! 18 A You know?
l
- 19 Q I don't think you answered my question.
I
! 20 A Yes, that's what he wanted to do, see if he could catch
! 21 us screwing off.
22 Q You have already testified, haven't you, that even when 23 you didn't turn in eight or ten inspections a day, 24 nobody ever approached you and chastised you about fewer l 25 inspections, did they?
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1 A They don't say nothing to me, too much.
2 Q I am sorry.
3 A They won't say too much, because usually if you only 4 have three, all you have to do is pull out all the 5 garbage you went .through if you did three.
6 There is usually something wrong where it's really 7 a difficult deal.
8 Q Based on your observations of QC management, management 9 understood that if you had had to spend an excessive 10 amount of time on a particular inspection because of the 11 research you had to do, that would be acceptable; is 12 that correct?
13 A The way it should be.
14 Q Is that the way it was?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. With respect to the four individuals whose 17 names have come up earlier today, Mr. Rolan -- and those 18 are Mr. Bouchou, Mr. Hall, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Martin --
19 all right?
20 Do you recall talking about those individuals?
21 A Mr. Bossong?
22 Q No. Mr. Bouchou.
23 A Bouchou?
24 Q Bouchou. I am sorry, sir.
25 A What about him?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4 4885 1 Q Now do you recall discussing those four individuals?
2 A Yes. He doesn't work there any more.
3 Q Yes, we realize that, Mr. Rolan.
4 Did you have occasion to observe Mr. Bouchou's 5 physical reaction when Mr. Saklak was yelling at him 6 during the course of the incident you saw?
7 A Bouchou's reaction?
8 Q Yes, sir.
9 A I give up.
10 Q Let me ask you this: Did Mr. Bouchou look threatened or 11 scared by Mr. Saklak?
1
( 12 A I don't know. I don't think so.
(~)/
- s. 13 Q What about Mr. Hall; did Mr. Hall look threatened or 14 scared?
15 A Jim was a little Cherokee. He didn't care about 16 anybody.
j 17 0 In other words, then Mr. Hall did not appear to you to 18 look scared or threatened; is that correct?
19 A He would go out and have ten Old Style and pick on the 20 biggest guy in the bar. He* don't care.
21 0 What about Mr. Timothy Stewart; did you have occasion to 22 observe his reaction to Mr. Saklak yelling or screaming 23 at him?
24 A No. Beefer just yells back.
25 0 What about Mr. Rick Martin; did you have occasion to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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V 1 observe his reaction?
2 A Rick used to cry.
3 Q Mr. Rolan, do you mean literally that Mr. Martin would 4 cry?
5 A He has been known to or he would go yell at -- or he 6 would go and talk to Irv or whatever.
7 Q You would observe Mr. Martin go and talking to Mr.
8 DeWald?
9 A I have seen him do it before, yes.
10 0 Was it your understanding that Mr. Martin would be 11 talking to Mr. DeWald about Mr. Saklak?
12 A I have seen it before.
i ( 13 Q Did you observe Mr. Martin talking to any other member 14 of the QC management after such an incident?
15 A About Rick?
16 Q Yes, sir.
17 A I don't know. Rick -- Rick Martin probably complained 18 about Rick Saklak zillions of times -- at least a lot.
19 You know, they had quite a few run-ins. They 20 didn't like each other too well; and -- did you talk to 21 him? ,
22 You talked to Rick; right?
23 Q Mr. Rolan, I am asking the questions here.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Thank you.
l 1 l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4887 O-c 1 A Never mind.
2 Q Can you tell me how many times you recall Mr. Martin 3 crying after Mr. Saklak yelled at him?
4 A At least twice.
5 Q Do you recall when either of those incidents took place?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you recall what it was Mr. Saklak was yelling at Mr.
8 Martin about at either of those two incidents?
9 A No; but I remember there was a time where he cussed him 10 out in front of everybody.
11 Q Where Mr. Saklak did?
l 12 A Yes. He really cussed him out bad in front of a whole
( 13 bunch of people. -
14 Q Do you recall what the substance of that was or no?
15 A No. I remember he cussed him out, though.
16 I don't know why. Obviously, he did something 17 wrong.
18 0 It's fair to say, is it not, that Mr. Saklak and Mr.
19 Martin didn't get along well?
20 A That's pretty obvious.
21 Q And it would be fair to say, would it not, that to the 22 casual observer, Mr. Saklak didn't appear to think 23 highly of Mr. Martin; isn't that correct?
24 A That's putting it lightly.
J 25 'Q All right. How would you put that?
I s 1
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1 A More like they couldn't stand each other.
2 Q Did Mr. Saklak give you any understanding with respect 3 to Mr. Saklak's opinion of Mr. Martin's competence as a 4 QC Inspector?
5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
6 MS. KEZELIS: C.ould you read the question 7 back, please?
8 (The question was thereupon read by the 9 Reporte r . )
10 A I know for a fact that Rick Saklak told Rick Martin that 11 he should be looking for another occupation, meaning go 12 work some place else rather than the nuclear field. I
() 13 know for a fact he said that to him.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Why did he say that to him, did you know?
16 A I don't know. Rick says a lot of strange things.
j 17 I don't know why he does this.
18 Q When you said " Rick," you meant Mr. Saklak?
i 19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall when this incident took place?
21 A No; but it was a while ago.
22 Q Was it before or after Mr. Martin's certification was i
23 pulled?
24 A I give up.
25 Q You don't recall when it was in relationship to Mr. l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Martin's certifications being pulled?
2 A No.
1 3 Q You knew, did you not, that Mr. Martin's'certs were 4 pulled?
5 A What was the question? I knew him when?
, 6 Q You knew that Mr. Martin's certifications had been 7 pulled, didn't you?
I 8 A A couple of times.
i i 9 Q All right. But that doesn't help you in terms of your 10 recollection of Mr. Saklak's --
11 A No. They didn't like each other too well.
, 12 Q You also testified that you had previously told Quality
() 13 First and that you had told Commonwealth Edison Company 14 about Mr. Saklak.
15 Is that correct?
16 A Quality First.
17 Q And was the statement or statements that you made to i 18 Quality First in conjunction with the base line i
19 inter l/iews by Quality First in February and March of 20 19857 21 A The what interviews?
22 Q The initial interviews that Quality First conducted of 23 all QC Inspectors on site.
24 A Oh, that's when it was, yes. The whole department went 25 over, yes.
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O 1 Q All right, all right. Is that what you meant when you 2 said that you had told Commonwealth Edison Company?
3 A Ycs. The whole department told them.
i j 4 Q In your mind then, you were equating Quality First with j 5 Commonwealth Edison Company --
l 6 A Right.
]
f 7 Q -- when you made the statement you did earlier today?
1 8 A Yes, because Quality First worked for Commonwealth i
) 9 Edison, right.
10 0 Another statement that you made along those lines, Mr.
- 11 Rolan, was of the owner -- and you were referring to l 12 Commonwealth Edison
- Company -- being aware of Mr.
13 Saklak's management style.
! 14 Did you, again, mean to refer to your statements to l
15 Quality First in February or March of 1985 about Mr.
i 16 Saklak during initial interviews that Quality First had 17 conducted?
i 18 A Well, he has had several run-ins with some of i
j 19 Commonwealth Edison's personnel, too.
1 20 0 Mr. Saklak had?
I I 21 A Yes.
22 Q Had you observed any such incident yourself, sir?
! 23 A I know he has had some, i
l 24 Q Well, I am asking you -- .
I j .
j 25 A I haven't observed any, no.
i l
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1 Q All right, all right. So any knowledge or information 2 you may have about that is what some third person or 3 fourth person might have told you about such an 4 incident, or rumor, for that matter; is that correct?
5 A I don't think I would say it was rumor; but -- can I 6 take a break for a minute?
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. Let's take a 8 ten-minute break.
9 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
10 I will think about it.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You can ask the Reporter to 12 read it to you.
() 13 (The question was thereupon read by the 14 Reporte r . )
15 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, 16 after which the hearing was resumed as 17 follows:)
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We are back in 19 session.
20 I believe there was a pending question that was not 21 answered.
22 Do you want that question repeated to you again?
23 THE WITNESS: I would, yes, please.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
25 (The question was thereupon read by the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Reporte r . )
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't think you asked the 3 first part of that question. I don't think you repeated 4 the first part.
5 (The question was thereupon re-read by the 6 Reporte r . )
7 MS. KEZELIS: It might make more sense if I 8 just rephrased the question. I believe it's sort of 9 convoluted.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
11 BY MS. KEZELIS:
12 Q Just before the break, Mr. Rolan, you had stated that
() 13 Commonwealth Edison Company, which you referred to 14 earlier as the owner, was aware of Mr. Saklak's style.
15 Do you recall that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You also testified that you had told Quality First or 18 had talked to Quality First about Mr. Saklak; is that 19 correct?
20 A Yes, I talked to a gentleman over there.
21 Q And you testified that that convercation took place 22 during the initial interviews that Quality First 23 conducted of all ,the QC Inspector departments on the 24 site?
25 A When they first came on site, yes.
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1 Q When you made the statement that the Commonwealth Edison 2 Company was aware of Mr. Saklak's management style or 3 his style, were you referring to something other than
! 4 the Quality First interviews?
5 A No; the gentleman at Quality First.
1 6 MS. KEZELIS: All right. That completes my 7 questioning.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That completes your 9 questioning?
10 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild.
12 MR. GUILD: My turn next? I am ready to go
( 13 if it is.
! 14 Does it go to the --
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
! 16 MR. GUILD: Thank you. I was thinking the 17 Staff followed.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, not in this case it 19 doesn't.
20 MR. GUILD: All right, sir.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I do have one question.
22 BOARD EXAMINATION 23 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN 24 Q Mr. Rolan, you mentioned with regard to Mr. Puckett, the 25 fact that there were no changes made as were made later, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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- 1 mignt have to do with Mr. Puckett's lack of support.
2 Do you recall you used that phrase?
, /
- 3 A Yes.
4 Q Is there any reason why you use that phrase, " lack of 5 support"?
l 6 Was there any indication that ho did have a lack of 7 support?
8 A Well, when he was there, I didn't feel he had support
^
9 from Irving DeWald. I didn't feel they were working I
10 together as a team from my observation, only my personal j 11 observation, though.
1
! 12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Guild. ,
!( 13 MR. GUILD: Thank you, Judge.
) 14 RECROSS EXAMINATION i
15 BY MR. GUILD 16 Q In response to the last line of questions from Ms.
j 17 Kezelis, you stated, Mr. Rolan, that you understood that 18 Mr. Saklak had had a couple of run-ins with Commonwealth j 19 Edison Company personnel.
l 20 Do you recall that?
j 21 A It has been rumored, yes.
22 0 What is the basis for that understanding?' How did you j 23 come to understand that fact?
i j 24 A How did I come to understand it?
25 Q Understand the fact that Saklak had had run-ins with l
! O '
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4895 1 Edison personnel.
2 A It was under the general knowledge. I guess you could 3 say rumor, you know, that there were several 4 Commonwealth Edison personnel that he had gotten in a 5 minor conflict with.
- 6 Q Did that information come from other Quality control I 7 Inspectors at Comstock?
) 8 A I believe. I guess you could say it was rumor.
t j 9 Q Rumor among Quality Control Inspectors?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you recall any other instances, aside frem the one on i 12 a Saturday, involving Mr. Purrazzo of Commonwealth 13 Edison Company, in which there were special projects to 14 work at getting the backlog of inspections down?
l l 15 A Well, they have been known to separate group, you know, s
- 16 like these guys here, this group of people are going to 17 do backlogs.
18 Q Inspectors?
i .
19 A Yes; and this group would do current.
20 Q Assigned special groups of inspectors to work on the 1 21 backlog?
22 A Yes.
.I 23 Q For specific periods of time during a special project?
3 24 A Yes, special project to get the backlog caught up.
25 Q During any of those special projects, did they assign i
O l
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1 helpers or scribes or gofers' to help?
2 A No. That was very rare. That was like only on that 3 Saturday did they have a bunch of grubs for that time.
4 Usually, you know, it was like you had to do all of 5 your own work yourself.
6 0 Was that the only instance they used helpers?
7 A That's the one I remember the most.
8 Q There may have been others, though?
9 A Well, there may have been; but that's the one that 10 stands out. .
11 0 Do you recall any other instance where there was a 12 special project aimed at the backlog where Commonwealth 13 Edison personnel were involved, such as the case with 14 Mr. Purrazzo?
15 A No. It was -- that was just a deal to get rid of it.
16 Q Do you know who Mr. Purrazzo was?
17 A Do I know who he is?
18 0 Yes.
19 A Yes.
20 0 What position does he hold?
21 A He is Commonwealth Edison. ,
22 Q What type of work does he do, do you know?
23 A Yes. He is a -- he is up there.
'24 Q A manager?
25 A I wouldn't say he is a manager. His name is on lists.
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1 He is a nice guy, don't get . me wrong.
2 Q I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
3 Is he in the electrical area?
4 A Yes.
5 0 Is he an engineer?
6 A He -- let me see. I don't know exactly what his title 7 is; but he used to work for Comstock a long, long time 8 ago.
9 Q He formerly worked for Comstock?
10 A A long time ago.
11 Q Does Mr. Purrazzo work in the Project Construction 12 Department?
( 13 A Yes, I believe he does. He is up there.
14 0 When you stated that Mr. Saklak placed some documents in 15 his Pearl Harbor file that you, in your presence --
16 A I have seen it.
17 Q The documents that related to the Sargent & Lundy 18 grounding leads question --
19 A That's only one little thing I have seen, though.
20 0 One example of what you observed Mr. Saklak putting in
- 21 his Pearl Harbor file? i 22 A Yeah.
23 0 You stated that the leads were themselves a non-safety i 24 item but they were involved with a safety-related.
25 inspection; correct?
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4898 1 A Well, it's part of the inspection procedure to look at 2 it; but it is a non-safety item.
3 Q But the fact that you initiated Nonconformance Reports 4 for discrepancies involving those leads, that itself 5 indicates that the matter was within the scope of the 6 Quality Assurance Program?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, Ms. Kezelis asked you whether the word " quotas" 9 with respect to numbers of inspections per day was my
- 10 word in my question or your word in your answer.
11 Do you recall Ms. Kezelis asking you questions 12 about the subject during your deposition?
O i
i 13 A I give up. Tell me what I said.
t 14 How long ago did I go to that?
, 15 Q It's been a while, Mr. Rolan. It was the 15th of May, f 16 1986.
! 17 A And what is this, the 18th of June?
18 0 Transcript 42, do you recall Ms. Kezelis asking you the 19 following --
20 MS. KEZELIS: I am going to object.
, 21 I hate to interrupt you, Mr. Guild. I don't
- 22 believe there is any indication on the record whether 23 you propose to use the deposition for impeachment 24 purposes or ref reshing his recollection, which are two I l 25 separate things.
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i 4899
)
i 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild has asked the j 2 witness if he has a recollection, and he has indicated 3 he doesn't.
1 3 4 Mr. Guild is going to read him what he said then --
5 MR. GUILD: Transcript 42.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- which is appropriate to i '7 refresh his recollection.
! 8 BY MR. GUILD:
1 9 Q Question, by Ms. Kezelis, "Mr. Rolan, did Mr. Saklak l
1 10 ever pressure you personally to perform more inspections i
11 or to increase the number of inspections that you 12 pe rf ormed?
() 13 "A We used to have a quota" --
) 14 A Yes.
j 15 Q Excuse me.
i 16 -
"used to have a quote, unquote, quota system; i
l 17 but that didn't work too well."'
! 18 A Didn't I say that earlier today?
19 Q Yes, sir.
20 Those were your words in the deposition?
l 21 A Yes.
1 i 22 Isn't that the same thing I said earlier?
3
- 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- You do recall saying that
! 24 now in the deposition, do you?
{ 25 THE WITNESS: I think I said that today, too, l
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4900 0 1 didn't I?
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So that does 3 accurately say what you said at that time and you also 4 repeated it today?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
7 BY MR. GUILD:
8 Q Now, you are certified in a number of areas presently --
9 A Yes.
10 0 -- under the cross-certification program at Comstock; 11 , correct?
~
12 A Yes.
, 13 0 Can you identify the areas in which you are certified 14 now?
15 A Now?
16 Q Yes.
l 17 MS. KEZELIS: Objection.
18 Asked and answered. I asked that this morning,
, 19 Judge.
20 THE WITNESS: She already asked that.
21 MR. GUILD: I don't believe the answer is
- 22 stated.
23 The witness has identified comprehensively the list 24 of areas in which he is certified. It's a Joundation l 25 question for one that is within the scope of Applicant's l
i 1
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v 1 examination.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right. Proceed.
3 Overruled.
4 You can answer that.
5 A Cable, termination, welding, configuration, equipment, J 6 boxes, conduit and pan; and that should be all.
7 RWR falls under terminations.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q All right, sir. You primarily perform work not in all 10 of those areas but in only a couple of those areas; is
! 11 that correct?
j 12 A I what?
i( 13 Q You primarily perform your inspection work on only a 14 couple of those areas?
15 A Usually what they do is you work in an area until they 16 get the backlog or whatever that is fixed and then you
, 17 move around to the other areas.
18 Q You stated earlier that your work is primarily in the I
19 area of RNR's and terminations; is that correct?
20 A It used to be.
21 Q What is it now?
l 22 A Turnover.
23 Q Does that have to do with walk down, document reviews?
24 A Now we are -- now what we do is we do document review.
25 They wants a system done, we make sure they have O
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1 got all the paper work for it; and if we don't, I run 2 out and do it.
3 0 The paper work?
4 A The inspections.
5 Q I see.
6 A Usually, I mean, there is one missing or something like 7 that and I have got to go out and inspect it.
8 Q Fine. Let's work backwards now.
9 Before you did the turnover inspections primarily, 10 did you primarily do RWR's and terminations?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And before that did you primarily do equipment?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, would you just state very briefly what equipment 15 inspection consists of?
16 A That consists of all major pieces of equipment that are 17 installed within the plant, plus all --
18 Q Electrical work?
19 A Yes. Plus all junction boxes.
j 20 Q Junction boxes?
21 A That includes physical placement of the item, any welds i 22 done, that is needed done, any bolt-down that is needed, 23 any hangers that are needed to hold them up, et cetera, 24 et cetera, et cetera.
25 0 As they relate to electrical equipment?
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4903 o
U 1 A Yeah.
2 Q All right, sir. And you are certified in areas other 3 than those you have just identified; but isn't it a fair 4 statement that primarily your work has been in the areas 5 that you have just described, equipment, then later 6 terminations and RWR's and now turnover?
7 A Well, I was doing cable last month.
8 Q Cable pulling?
9 A Last month, yes.
10 Q Has there before been a time when you primarily did 11 welding inspection?
d 12 A Sure.
I 13 Q Can you --
14 A I do that every once in a while, too.
15 Q Primarily, has there ever been a time when you did 16 primarily welding inspection to the exclusion of other 17 areas of work?
18 A You see, that falls under RWR's, too; but there was also 19 a time where I did solely welding inspections.
20 0 All right. When was that?
21 A Years ago.
22 O How many years ago?
23 A A year ago, two years ago?
24 Q Okay. Let's focus now on 1984, the spring and summer of 25 1984.
)
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4904 1 Can you recall what areas of inspection work you 2 did primarily during that time, Mr. Rolan?
3 A '84? I don't know.
4 Equipment.
5 Q That was the time when Mr. Puckett hired on as the 6 corporate -- as the Level 3?
7 A I guess I was probably doing equipment.
8 Q And that's primarily junction -- that's junction boxes 9 and electrical equipment?
10 A Yes. You have got to do the hangers and you have got to 11 do the boxes and you have got to do the equipment.
12 Q All right. Now, during that period of time when you 1
O 13 were doing the equipment inspection, who did you work 14 for?
15 A I think I worked for Rick.
16 Q Rick Saklak?
17 A Yes.
18 0 Who was your lead?
- 19 A I was the lead.
20 0 I am sorry. You were the lead at that time? You were 21 the electrical equipment lead?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You had people working for you and you worked for Mr.
24 Saklak?
I 25 A Kind of.
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1 Q Did you work for Mr. Puckett?
2 A Not directly. I mean, I don't work under him.
3 Q Right. You didn't work under him at that time, did you?
4 A No. He was a different supervisor.
5 Q Mr. Puckett, in fact, was not supervising anybody during 6 that period of time, was he?
7 A Not me.
8 0 Do you know whether he supervised anyone?
, 9 A I don't know. I am not sure.
i 10 Q You were aware, weren't you, that Mr. Puckett 11 essentially was in the process of becoming certified?
i 12 A I give up.
13 Q You didn't know that?
14 A Well, I -- I knew he failed the test.
15 Q You are aware that he was flunked on the welding test?
16 A Not the only one.
17 Q He is not the only one to flunk the welding test?
18 A Yes. A lot of people do.
19 Q Are you aware that Mr. DeWald flunked the welding test?
20 A He has.
21 Q Are you aware of other supervisors that have flunked the 22 welding test?
23 A Those two have.
1 :
24 Q So during the summer of '84, you didn't work for Mr. 1 25 Puckett, you were a lead yourself in the equipment area .
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1 working for Mr. Saklak, and you had contact with Mr.
2 Puckett in the course of being in the same office?
3 A Well, I guess you could say that.
A 4 I mean, if they had welding meetings, we got to go.
5 Q All right.
6 A We did welding, you know.
7 Q But Mr. Puckett was not your supervisor?
8 A Not directly.
9 Q Now, you learned, I take it, that Mr. Puckett had raised 10 concerns with Mr. DeWald about what he perceived as 11 deficiencies in the welding program?
12 A That's what the papers say.
, 13 Q Well, I want to know what you understood at the time.
j 14 A Well, I believe that it was common knowledge that the 15 welding program was iffy.
]
! 16 \ (Indicating.)
1
- 17 Q You made a gesture there.
- 18 Messed up?
l j 19 A Iffy.
20 Q Iffy?
! 21 A Everybody knows. Everybody knew it could be improved.
! 22 Okay?
4 23 Q There were problems with the welding program at the 24 time?
I i 25 A Yeah.
i t
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4907 1 Q And did everyone know that's why they hired a Level 3, 2 because of problems in the welding program?
3 A Well, Puckett was a Level 3.
4 Q Right. That's why they hired Mr. Puckett?
5 A Well, Irv was a Level 3, too.
1 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Please try to answer the 7 questions.
8 Did everybody know that's why they hired Mr.
9 Puckett, because they were having problems?
10 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
11 BY MR. GUILD:
12 Q And it came to your attention that Mr. Puckett
() 13 identified problems in the welding program during the 14 brief time that he was on site?
15 A Yes, yes, he did.
16 Q Did it come to your attention or did you become aware 17 that he brought those problems to Mr. DeWald, he, Mr.
18 Puckett?
19 A Yes, he did.
20 Q And you observed that Mr. Puckett and Mr. DeWald did not 21 get along; is that what your testimony was?
22 A I would say that was safe to anticipate.
23 0 What was the basis for your opinion, your conclusion, to 24 that effect?
25 A I just don't think they got along too good.
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1 Q Did you observe the two interacting, DeWald and Puckett 2 talking to each other?
3 A I don't know. I can't remember.
4 0 Okay.
5 A I just don't think they got along very well.
6 Q Fine. Did you ever see any documents that Mr. Puckett 7 authored on the subject of deficiencies in the welding 8 program?
9 A No. s 10 0 Are you aware that he authored any such documents?
11 A That he authored some?
12 Q Wrote them.
13 A No. It's just what you said.
14 Q What do you mean by that?
15 A Well, you know, you said in the paper that he said the 16 quality broke down or whatever.
17 Q By pape r --
18 A I haven't seen anything that he wrote.
1 19 Q By paper are you referring to the harassment contention 20 that Ms. Kezelis showed you during the deposition on l 21 this subject?
22 A I am talking about the newspaper.
23 You know, they said you are approaching a quality 24 breakdown. Okay?
- 25 If he said that, fine, you know.
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1 Q Well, let me refresh or see if I can refresh your 2 recollection.
3 Do you remember Ms. Kezelis during your der,sition, 4 Mr. Rolan, presenting you with a copy of Intervenors' 5 harassment contention and going through it with you line 6 by line and asking whether you are aware of it?
7 A Do I get to read it?
8 Q Do you remember her doing that?
9 A I don't remember it.
10 I will read it. .
11 Q Do you remember her showing you this document?
12 A Let's see. What part do you want me to read, Paragraph 13 2?
14 Q Why don't you take a look at the document and tell me if 15 you recall Ms. Kezelis shcwing that to you during your 16 deposition.
17 A No.
18 Q For now it's enough, Mr. Rolan, if you tell me if you 19 recognize that document.
20 A I can't remembe r. How is that?
21 Now, maybe you showed it to me and maybe I don't 22 remembe r. I don't know.
23 Q I didn't. Ms. Kezelis did, I would represent to you.
24 I would represent to you that she asked you a 25 series of questions from the document and that at one O
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1 point she got to the portion of the document that 2 relates to Mr. Puckett and asked you a series of 3 questions on what your opinion was and --
4 A What did I tell you?
5 0 I will get to that point, but do you now remember that?
6 A I give up.
7 You are looking for something that happened six 8 weeks ago.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, since he doesn't l'0 remember, why don't we cut it short:
11 You can read them, if you wish.
12 MR. GUILD: I will.
C-s 13 THE WITNESS: I knew he was in the Navy and 14 all of that and I know the papers said something about 15 approaching a quality breakdown. I know it says that.
16 BY MR. GUILD:
17 Q Let me direct your attention, if I can, to Pages 63 and 18 64 of your deposition.
19 A Okay.
20 Q Ms. Kezelis, 21 "O With respect to that attachment now, without 22 looking at them at this point, do you recall 23 whether or not you have ever seen any?
24 "A No, I don't have any problem that.
25 "Q With what?
O .
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1 "A What he said.
. 2 "Q With what Mr. Puckett said?
3 "A Yes.
4 "Q What do you mean by that?
5 "A Well, he says it says here we are approaching a 6 quality breakdown."
7 A Yes, yes.
8 Q "I assume he is talking about bad welds or whatever. I 9 don't see them. Ask him to show you. I don't see 10 them."
11 A You are reading the wrong thing. You are on the wrong 12 page, I guarantee. Write that over here.
( 13 Q I will do it when you tell me what page I should be 14 looking at.
15 The question, Mr. Rolan, to yott is: Do you 16 remember Ms. Kezelis showing you the documen't?
17 A I know what you are reading there. I will tell you what 18 you are reading there.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Rolan, please try to 20 answer his questions.
21 Do you recall Ms. Kezelis showing you the document 22 there?
23 THE WITNESS: That gentleman over there or 24 him?
25 Okay. I --
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1 BY MR. GUILD:
2 Q Further question, Page 64. "Let me ask you this: If 3 you had heard Mr. Puckett say in August, 1984, words to 4 the effect that Comstock was approaching a complete 5 breakdown in its QC Department, would you have agreed 6 with that?
7 "A Yes, that was in the paper. Let's put it this way:
8 "What we do now and what we did then is a lot 9 different. Our welding program is 1,000 percent better.
10 The documentation is much, much better. It's much more 11 complete. No more -- you know, everything is complete 12 and turned in before it's even issued to us."
13 Do you recall answering that question that way?
14 A Yes; but I think the beginning of what you are saying, 15 when you said if there is a problem, I don't see it.
16 That's where she was talking about the accusation 17 that other inspectors were making at the initial NRC 18 meetings.
19 If you go back a couple of pages, that is what her 20 question is saying.
21 Q Perhaps so, Mr. Rolan; but the point of my question is i
22 that -- l 23 A I don't think that falls in with Worley Puckett. You 24 have got me lost here.
25 Q Let's see if we can get unlost a moment now.
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1 Do you recall understanding at the time, now, in 2 the summer of '84, put aside what you read in the 3 newspapers, put aside what Ms. Kezelis asked you in the 4 deposition about our contention, put aside what I just 5 read to you --
6 A Uh-huh.
7 Q -- do you recall in the summer of 1984 being aware that 8 Mr. Puckett raised concerns about the adequacy of the 9 Comstock welding program?
10 A I know he talked a lot. You know, I don't know what to 11 tell you.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did he talk a lot about the l 13 inadequacies of the welding program?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, he used to talk about it 15 but he didn't do much.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So the answer is yes, 17 you do recall that he discussed that?
18 THE WITNESS: I do recall him saying 19 something; but, you know, I can't remember what.
20 BY MR. GUILD:
21 Q Did it come to your attention in the summer of '84 now 22 -- not since but in the s umme r of ' 84 -- that M r .
23 Puckett recommended that there be a stop work with 24 respect to the welding program?
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2 I can't say for sure but I think it was a big fight 3 deal. There was a big fight going on. Irv and him 4 didn't get along too good; and I hope that's the end of 5 the questions.
6 I don't -- you know, it's two years ago. I don't 7 remembe r .
8 Q That is fine. That is an appropriate answer. If you 9 don't recall, just so state, please.
10 Do you recall in 1984 now, it coming to your 11 attention that Mr. Puckett was terminated?
12 A Yes, I remember that, because we were talking about it
( 13 because it was like his 91st day or something like that.
14 We thought it was eal peculiar, because nobody get 15 laid off after 90 days.
16 Q They didn't, in fact, use the practice of terminating 17 people after the 90th day, did they?
18 A No, they never, no. .
19 Q Mr. Puckett was the first instance of that that came to 20 your attention?
21 A Yes. It was very peculiar.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You don't mean af ter 90 23 , days?
24 You mean at about .the 90th day or before the 90 25 days are over terminating someone because they are Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 within that 90-day period; is that what you mean?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, like he would be laid off 3 or fired on the 90th day or 91st day.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are saying this is an 5 unusual situation?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, very much so. Nobody has 7 ever had that happen before.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q Did it subsequently come to your attention that Mr.
10 Puckett maintained that his termination was in 11 retaliation for having raised concerns about the 12 Comstock welding program?
13 A Do I believe that he was terminated because of that?
14 Q No. I am not asking your opinion at this juncture, Mr.
15 Rolan?
16 A Oh.
17 Q I am asking you whether it came to your attention that 18 Mr. Puckett maintained that he had been fired for having 19 raised concerns about the welding program.
20 A That's what the papers said.
4 21 Q I want to know what you understood at the time.
t 22 A I can't give you an answer then.
i 23 Q You don't recall?
l 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry. Do you have an 1
25 objection?
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1 MS. KEZELIS: I intended to have an 2 objection.
3 I believe Mr. Guild switched tracks on the witness.
4 I think the witness is getting a little tired.
5 I think Mr. Guild's question was rather open ended 6 with respect to what Mr. Rolan may have known and then 7 chastised him for mentioning the newspapers.
8 MR. GUILD: I will restate the question.
9 I apologize if I was being unclear.
10 BY MR. GUILD:
11 Q Again, Mr. Rolan, turning to the time in question, now 12 not based on what you have read in the newspapers; but 13 during 1984, did it come to your attention that Mr.
14 Puckett maintained or alleged that his firing was 15 retaliatory for having raised concerns about the 16 Comstock welding program?
17 A Well, I don't -- I don't know if he had been fired 18 because of that but I know it was kind of peculiar that 19 he got fired at the 90th day; and I know that him and 20 Irv did not get along very well.
' 21 Listen to my question, Mr. Rolan. I am not asking for Q
22 your opinion. I appreciate you volunteering it.
23 A Okay, okay.
24 0 My point is: Were you aware that Mr. Puckett alleged 25 that he had been fired in a retaliatory manner for
{
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4917 1 having raised concerns --
2 A No.
3 Q -- about the welding program?
4 A No. I guess that's the answer you want: No.
5 Q Did you learn that Mr. Puckett brought a complaint 6 against Comstock with the Department of Labor and one of 7 his complaints --
8 A Yes.
l 9 0 When did you learn that?
10 A It was in the paper. There was rumor around the office, j 11 too.
12 O That's my point.
()
I 13 Did you learn of that decision by the Department of 14 Labor in Mr. Puckett's favor about the time it occurred, 1
15 in the fall of 1984?
16 A We heard he got something like 100,000.
17 Q That was a rumor around the office?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Belief among the Quality Control Inspectors?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Later you learned something from the newspaper about it; 22 right?
23 A Well, it's in the paper every week now.
24 Q That's not what I am focusing on, what is in the paper.
25 It's what you knew at the time.
[}
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( i i 1 A Okay.
2 Q Now, do you know, Mr. Rolan, whether Mr. Puckett tried 3 to make changes in the Comstock welding program but was 4 prevented from making such changes by Comstock managers?
5 A I don't think they seen eye to eye.
6 Q Mr. Puckett and Mr. DeWald?
7 A Right.
8 Q All right. ,
9 A I am not -- you know, either eye to eye or I don't think 10 they got along too good.
11 MS. KEZELIS: Judge Grossman, would you I 12 direct the witness to answer the questions that Mr.
13 Guild asks?
14 I realize t.iat Mr. Rolan is tired. I don't think I 15 am in an appropriate position to direct him to answer 16 another attorney's questions but I think it's an 17 appropriate direction to make at this juncture.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That the witness answer the 19 questions being asked?
20 MS. KEZELIS: That's right.
4 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I thought I had done that a 22 numbe r of times.
23 MS. KEZELIS: I realize the witness is tired 24 and it's been a long day.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: It is late in the day and we O
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1 are going to have to hear from Staff with regard to a 2 matter that was brought up yesterday.
3 So, perhaps, it's the appropriate time to excuse 4 the witness for the day and have him re-appear tomorrow 5 at 9:00 o' clock.
6 Does that sound all right to you, Mr. Guild?
l 7 MR. GUILD: Yes, that would be fine, Mr.
8 Chairman.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why don't we do that?
10 Mr. Rolan, that means we would like to see you 11 tomorrow again at 9:00 o' clock.
12 THE WITNESS: I was hoping I would get out of 13 It.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
15 THE WITNESS: Never mind.
16 MS. KEZELIS: May I ask the Court Reporter a 17 favor, to have the last question and answer reread, 18 because I didn't have them down adequately?
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry. I didn't --
20 MS. KEZELIS: Just to have the Court Reporter 21 read the last question and answer.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
23 (The record was thereupon read by the 24 o Reporter.)
~g 25 MR. GALLO: The witness is excused?
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
2 MR. GALLO: The witness is excused?
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. The witness is excused 4 now and we will see you tomorrow at 9:00 o' clock.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay. And then we will be 6 done; right? .
l 7 MR. GUILD: Soon.
l 8 (Witness excused.)
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Now, Staff, did you
} 10 have anything further to say about what has happened 11 today?
12 MS. KEZELIS: Actually, I think this is an i C) 13 appropriate juncture for me to move for the admission of i
14 a document that I had marked earlier today, if that is 15 acceptable.
16 I don't believe I need the witness for that
'I l 17 particular document.
j 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, you certainly don't, 19 if there are no objections to it.
i 20 MS. KEZELIS: It would have been Exhibit 41, j 21 memorandum by Mr. Saklak to Mr. DeWald, dated October 22 17, 1984.
23 At this time I move for the admission of that 24 document . l 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are there any objections to l
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, ,. ,,-.__-____.--,,_._m. _ , . , . ..._.._..,.._.:_._,__-...___._.. ..m_, - . _ ,_._ ___,_.. ., - -_,_ ,, n . , . . - . _ _ _ _ . . _ _ , , , . . , .
4921 4 .
1 that?
2 MR. GUILD: If I may just have a moment to 3 see what it is.
4 JUDGE COLE: Would you like to borrow our 5 copy?
6 MR. GUILD: Sure, sure.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That is the commendation.
8 MR. GUILD: No objection.
9 i MR. BERRY: No objection, your Honor.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That is received 11 then.
12 (The document was thereupon received into 13 evidence as Applicant's Exhibit No. 41.)
14 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Berry or Ms.
16 Chan, who is going to report?
17 MS. CHAN: I will.
18 MR. BERRY: Ms. Chan.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
- 20 MS. CHAN
- Yesterday Doug Cassel, Counsel for i
21 Intervenor, had brought a document to the attention of 22 the Staff.
23 It was anonymously sent to the BPI office, and the 24 Board had requested several items of information 25 regarding this document.
I q%/
1 l
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l 1 I would like to begin with the first. The first 2 question from the Board was why this document was not 3 made available in response to Intervenors' request to i 4 produce.
5 The Staff in its August 8th response -- August 8, 6 1985, response -- to Intervenors' first set of
- 7 interrogatories, Interrogatory 55, stated that it was 8 producing the information limited to the admitted 9 contention on QC Inspectors and produced all of the 10 allegations in its files regarding the QC Inspectors.
11 In addition, the Staff included a summary of 12 information. that it had been informed was forwarded to O. 13 the Of fice of Investigations, which included two open 14 cases related to the subject matter of the interrogatory
.15 and informed the Intervenor at that time that there was 16 a special policy for disclosure of information when OI 17 investigations are conducted in areas of potential 18 relevance to a pending adjudication; and that was the 19 Federal Register, No. 49 Federal Register 36032*, 1985.
20 And OI did not produce the documents to the Staff.
21 Roger Fortuna, the Deputy Director, Office of 22 Investigations, reviewed the documents and determined 23 that they could not be released and informed the Staff 24 accordingly.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did he indicate that it was Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4923 1 relevant?
2 MS. CHAN: He said it related to the subject 3 matter but did not tell the Staff how, if it was 4 relevant to the contention.
5 We have made a thorough search of our files and 6 there were no other documents in the file. That was the 7 answer to the second question that the Intervenors had, 8 whether or not there were any other documents; and if 9 there were, that we produce them.
10 My last response was that there are no documents in 11 the NRC Region 3 files, which are the files that we have 12 access to.
O 13 Office of Investigations may have additional 14 materials but we do not have access to those.
15 Oace the material is or an allegation is forwarded 16 to the Office of Investigations, the Staff does not get 17 any further feedback.
18 On the second question as to the status of the 19 investigation on the case mentioned in the document 20 brought up by Mr. Cassel, OI has informed us that they 21 have an ongoing investigation and that the item is still 22 open; and we have been emphatically directed not to 23 release the document, because it would compromise their
, 24 investigation, and that we can make no further comment (T 25 on the matter.
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(J l As to the question of the responsibility of the 2 Office of Investigation in informing the Board of the 3 status of its investigation, the Board can request ex 4 parte, in camera briefing; and then it's up to the Board 5 to determine whether or not they feel it's necessary to 6 disclose any of that information.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That is at this point, 8 though.
i 9 They never notified us in the past, have they, 10 about this document --
11 MS. CHAN: That is correct.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- and the ongoing
- (')
\_e 13 investigation; and they were not required to under the 14 guidelines?
15 MS. CHAN: That is correct.
16 It's my understanding under the guidelines that I 17 had cited earlier, the statement of policy notice in the 18 Federal Register, that they are required to notify'the
, 19 Board.
20 JUDGE COLE: They are required to notify the 21 Board?
22 MS. CHAN: Of the existence of the open 23 cases, yes.
24 JUDGE COLE: Why weren't we notified then, do 25 you know?
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4925 9 1 s MS. CHAN: I guess you will have to ask the 2 Office of Investigations. We don't know why they didn't 3 notify you.
4 We in our response to interrogatories had the 5 Office of Investigations alerted that there were 6 possible items in contention and they supplied that 7 information to us, which we included in our response to 8 interrogatories.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, let me ask you:
10 If they had notified us, you would have known about 11 that, too, wouldn't you?
12 It's possible something crossed my desk and I don't
(~)'
V 13 recall it.
14 MS. CHAN: Yes.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Though I doubt that it 16 happened; but if it did, I don't want to start making 17 rash statements here to the effect that it didn't.
18 But you would have been notified yourself?
19 MS. CHAN: Yes, we would have been notified, 20 also; and we were not.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So we are fairly certain 22 that we weren't notified?
23 MS. CHAN: That's correct.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right.
f3 25 MS. CHAN: So in view of the Office of U
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1 Investigations' position on the confidentiality of these 2 documents and the request that we not, the Staff not, 3 release the documents or allow them to be introduced in 4 the record, we would like to refer back to yesterday's 5 transcript and expunge any identifying information or to 6 provide that it be in camera.
7 This is on Transcript Page 4545, Lines 6 through 8 15, fourth question that the Board had asked, which was 9 whether or not the OI investigation -- when the OI 10 investigation concluded, whether the confidentiality 11 would terminate.
12 The answer is no, the confidentiality continues l
. 13 after the investigation is complete, but the disclosure 3
14 of information can be given after the investigation is
) 15 complete; but the source of the information cannot be 16 disclosed unless that confidential request is waived by 17 the person seeking it originally.
i 18 This is stated in statement of policy and 19 confidentiality, and the purpose of that is to safeguard 20 the identities of confidential sources to ensure future 21 holuntaryflowofsuchinformationtotheNRC.
i 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Right now you would like us 23 to delete the mention of that person's title, his past 24 title, which identifies him; is that correct?
25 MS. CHAN: Yes, please.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You also ask that the letter 2 that was given to us yesterday not be divulged.
3 Now, let me ask Applicant's counsel: Have you 4 divulged that information to the party, the letter that 5 was given us yesterday?
6 MR. MILLER: To the party, to representatives 7 of my client?
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. We didn't ask you not 9 to.
10 MR. MILLER: I am not sure. I think that l
11 some -- yes, Mr. DelGeorge and Mr. Gieseker saw the 12 document.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, you know, it's a 14 little after the game here.
15 I would assume that the purpose of the grant of 16 confidentiality is primarily to preclude the people in 17 the company from knowing who had brought the 18 allegations, and that's already out in the open.
19 MS. CHAN: The Staff would like to protect 20 any further use of the document, any further 21 unrestricted use in the course of this proceeding.
22 We can't do anything about releases to BPI 23 anonymously or if Applicant employees have seen the 24 document; but from this point on, we would like to 25 attach some safeguards.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, right now we will 2 direct that the record be expunged; but we are going to 3 have to take care of that ourselves, because the 4 Reporter won't do that.
5 So we are going to have to make arrangements, if 6 possible, to get yesterday's transcript back here and we.
7 will take those precautions.
8 What we can do is provide confidentiality with 9 regard to this hearing; but we certainly can't order 10 people to maintain confidentiality on matters that they 11 have received independently of this hearing.
12 So we are definitely not going to order Mr. Guild 13 to maintain the confidentiality of something that he 14 received in the mail or Mr. Cassel received in the mail.
15 MS. CHAN: That's fine.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So then we are going 17 to have to have a further discussion as to what we are ;
i 18 going to do about those allegations and what the Board !
19 is going to do with regard to looking at the information 20 in camera and having its discussion with OI.
21 MS. CHAN: If the Board wishes to request 22 that OI present the information, they need to contact 23 Ben Hayes, the Director of the Office of Investigations; 24 and they will facilitate that briefing. I 25 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, excuse me.
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\l 1 It seems to me if you are not going to 2 retroactively, if you will, extend protection to the 3 document that is now in the hands of BPI, Counsel for 4 the Intervenors, and, indeed, in the hands of 5 Commonwealth Edison Company, that there really is no 6 need to involve OI in this at all.
7 It seems to me that if Intervenors wish to pursue 8 this matter, they have sufficient information from the 9 document that they can proceed.
10 I suggested yesterday that they may want to respect 11 the NRC's investigative process. Mr. Cassel thanked me 12 for my free advice and indicated that he would not.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I was going to say 14 that right now.
't 15 There is nothing that we have heard that suggests 16 that Mr. Guild can't raise this matter and ask that it 17 be included in the hearing under one guise or another.
18 So I don't know. What do you think your course of 19 action will be, Mr. Guild?
20 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I really don't 21 know.
22 I know that you can't put the genie back in the 23 bottle and I think it's a little absurd to suggest that 24 the Staff's position has any meaningfulness at this 25 juncture, that is trying to seal the record after the l
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2 But I would like an opportunity to read the policy 3 statement -- I have read it before; it's pretty 4 convoluted and complex -- and consider the matter a 5 little further before I take a position on the record.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, okay. We will take 7 note of the fact that Intervenor would have raised this 8 for bringing into the hearing were it not for the 9 request of confidentiality.
10 Isn't that correct, Mr. Guild?
11 MR. GUILD: Certainly.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you are not sleeping on O
k/ 13 your rights by reading that policy statement.
14 MR. GUILD: Thank you. ,
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And you can expect that the 16 - Board is not going to come down with a pronouncement 17 that you have.
18 MR. MILLER: As I understand it, the 19 Intervenors just received the document two days ago.
20 It wasn't a confidentiality question. It was a 21 question of when they received the document anonymously 22 in the mail.
l 23 MR. BERRY: Yes.
- 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- Yes; but the point is as to 25 not raising it in the hearing at this juncture, is that l
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4931 1 they are holding up until they study the request for 2 confidentiality and the policy statement. .
3 We are not holding their feet to the fire to insist 4 that if they are going to raise it, they speak their 5 piece right now.
6 I assume that is agreeable to you, Mr. Miller?
7 MR. MILLER: Well, yes, within some 8 reasonable time limits, obviously.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, that's right.
10 We will expect to discuss this further, but we 11 won't count the one-and-a-half days right now as being 12 '
held against Intervenors.
13 MS. CHAN: The Staff will offer to provide a 14 copy of the statement of policy to facilitate Mr.
15 Guild's review and decision.
16 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I would assume Staff --
18 well, you really don't have any information other than 19 what you told us, so any discussions would be fruitless.
- 20 MS. CHAN
- Yes.
j 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. So why don't we 22 conclude until 9:00 o' clock tomorrow morning when we 23 will reconvene.
24 (WHEREUEON, at the hour of 5:15 p. m., the 25 hearing of the above-entitled matter was '
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s NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER b'
'v This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: Braidwood Station Units 1 & 2 Commonwealth Edison Company (Evidentiary Hearing)
DOCKET NO.: 50-456/467-OL l
PLACE: Joliet, Illinois O DATE: Wednesday, June 18, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission. l i
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(sigt)
(TYPED)
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Nancy J. Ilopp Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation )
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