ML20155A167
| ML20155A167 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/21/1998 |
| From: | NRC ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NACNUCLE-T-0126, NACNUCLE-T-126, NUDOCS 9810280162 | |
| Download: ML20155A167 (233) | |
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I DISCLAIMER UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE OCTOBER 21, 1998 The contents of this transcript of the proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Advisory Committee on Nuclear Waste, tak n on October 21, 1998, as reported herein, is a record of the discussions recorded at the meeting held on the above date.
l This transcript had not been reviewed, corrected and edited and it may contain inaccuracies.
I l
l 1
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
/ 'N 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
\)
x
'3 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE 4 ***
5 MEETING: 104TH ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON 6 NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) 7 8
9 Colorado Room #2 10 Long Street Inn 11 Amargasa Valley, Nevada 12 13 Wednesday, October 21, 1998 14 O
( )i 15 The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 8:30 16 a.m.
17 18 MEMBERS PRESENT:
19 B. JOHN GARRICK, Chairman, ACNW 20 RAYMOND G. WYMER, Member, ACNW 21 GEORGE M. HORNBERGER, Member, ACNW 22 23 24 25
\ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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\s- Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
2 1 PROCEEDINGS 2
[8 :30 a.m.]
l l 3 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Good morning. The' meeting will 4 now come to order. This is the second day of the 104th l 5 ' meeting of the Advisory Committee on Nuclear Waste.
I' l 6 My name is John Garrick, Chairman of the ACNW.
7- Other members of the committee present include George 8 Hornberger and Raymond Wymer. Charles Fairhurst is absent l 9 today.
I i 10 Today the Committee will hear formal presentations 11- by the State of Nevada, Nye County, and DOE, followed by an 12 open session this morning to hear comments from the public 13 and other interested parties.
14 We also will discuss Committee activities and j fs
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i 15 possible ACNW reports on topics previously discussed with l j 16 the Committee, namely the standard review plan for l
l 17 decommissioning and importance measures.
I 18 Richard Major is the designated Federal official 19 for the initial portion of today's meeting, and as usual i
j 20 this meeting is being conducted in accordance with the i 21 provisions of the Federal Advisory Committee Act, 22 We have received requests to make presentations to i
l 23 the Committee from members of the State of Nevada, Nye 24 County, and DOE. We have also received an oral request from 25 Mrs. Sally Devlin, a citizen of Pahrump, to address the 1 L !
l
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1 3
1 Committee.
( ) 2 When addressing the Committee, I would like to ask I 3 that all people clearly introduce themselves, identify 4 themselves, and make sure that the reporter has the correct 5 spelling of your name and your affiliation, preferably a i 6 business card, but if you don't, give him the information 7 some way, j 8 We do ask that each speaker use one of the 9 microphones that's been provided, speak as clearly and with 10 sufficient volume as possible, so that we can all hear what !
11 is being said.
12 This is a very important part of the 104th 13 meeting. As you know from the agenda -- the agenda is on 14 the table behind me -- we have allocated a time period
() 15 between 11:00 and 12:30 for public commeats. We are going 16 to guard that period very carefully, and I don't mean to be 17 rude, but if we are not complete with our previous 18 presentations by 11 o' clock, we will terminate them in order 19 to accommodate the public comment period. ;
20 We do have a number of changes in the agenda in 21 terms of people who are going to make presentations and 22 people that have requested to make presentations. I'm not 23 going to detail that. Instead, as I said earlier, I'm going !
24 to ask that each speaker introduce themselves and their 25 affiliation as they come to the podium.
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4 1 We will have to accommodate the microphones, so j 2 everybody will speak from the podium, and I guess we will, 3 unless I've left something out, if there's other 4 announcements or comments by the Members, I'd like to move 5 directly to our first presentation from the State of Nevada, 6 Steve Frishman.
7 MR. FRISHMAN: I'm Steve Frishman. I'm 8 technical-policy coordinator for the Nevada Agency for 9 Nuclear Projects, which is, as you know,.the State agency 10 that oversees the high-level nuclear waste program.
11 I have a few things that I want to go through 12 today. First'of all, it could be interesting to have an 13 early-morning wakeup with first of all not having 14' viewgraphs, which I rarely do, because you can read. And I
() 15 have two or three things that I want to go through.
16 One is, as I've told your Chairman, the Governor 17 is signing a letter to Chairman Jackson today having to do 18 with the staff recommendation for part 63, and what I'd like 19 to do first, I have a copy of the text of that letter. I 20 don't have an original. So I'll read it to you, and the 21 original will probably be moving through the system within a 22 day. And it has to do not so much with the substance of the 23 staff recommendation but the process that surrounds it. And 24 I think it's important to this Committee, because in your 25 strategic plan you go far beyond just questions of technical O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
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5 1 recommendations to the Commission. I think your
() 2 responsibility is much broader than that, and you're well 3 aware of that, and your strategic statement makes it fairly 4 clear that you need'to be aware of that, especially in the j 5 area of -- we use the buzzword of today, which is the 6 transparency of decisions.
7- So let me read you this letter, and then I'll talk i 8 about some of the issues that are behind'the letter, I l 9 think. And this is Governor Miller to Chairman Jackson.
10 I'm writing to you in regard to the recent release )
l 11 of the NRC staff recommendation of a new proposed rule for 12 disposal of high-level radioactive waste in a proposed 13 geological repository at Yucca Mountain, Nevada. The new i 14 rule would replace and preclude use of the existing general l ~s k_j) 15 rule for disposal of high-level radioactive waste in 16 geological repositories, part 60, in NRC's consideration of ,
i 17 a license application for a Yucca Mountain high-level !
l 18 radioactive waste repository.
19 First, I want you to know that I appreciate the 20 release of the staff recommendation prior to the 21 Commission's publication of a proposed rule for public
- 22 review and comment. This action provides an opportunity for l
23 comment on issues considered by the Commission in its l
l 24 direction to the staff to prepare a recommendation for a 25 site-specific licensing rule for Yucca Mountain but for i
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6 )
1 which interested and affected parties were neither invited
~D 2 nor requested to provide any input.
[O 3 Given the opportunity, we first would have l l
4 questioned the timeliness of this rulemaking. The Energy l l
5 Policy Act of 1992 requires that the Commission not later j 6 than one year after the EPA Administrator promulgates 7 repository standards modify its technical requirements and l 8 criteria as necessary to be consistent with the 9 Administrator's standards. To date, as you know, the 10 Administrator of the EPA has not promulgated the new 11 repository standards required by the act. Therefore, it is 12 premature for the Commission to propose any modification of 13 its licensing rule absent such standards.
14 Once the EPA standards are promulgated, it will
()
- fm 15 then be clear what if any modifications to the NRC licensing 16 rule will be needed to maintain consistency. We understand 17 that the potential license applicant, the U.S. Department of 18 Energy, has announced its current schedule for repository 19 site recommendation and subsequent license application, and 20 its stated need for relevant regulations and standards to be 21 in place early in the year 2000. However, without the final 22 EPA repository rule, there is no rulemaking action incumbent 23 upon the Commission, even in the face of the impatient 24 demands of the Department of Energy.
25 I submit that no potential applicant for any NRC l
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7 1 license, and especially the Department of Energy, with its
() '2 long record of delay in meeting its own deadlines, should be 3 allowed to tax the limited resources of the NRC and the 4 affected public by its demands for premature and potentially 5 unnecessary actions that are outside the mandate of law.
6 Our second comment to the Commission would have 7 been that the Energy Policy Act of 1992 supersedes the 8 Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982 with respect to the 9 regulatory criteria standards. It mandates new EPA l 10 standards specific to a Yucca Mountain repository, but it j 11 does not mandate a new NRC rule specific to Yucca Mountain l 12 to replace its general rule for licensing any geo; gic i
13 repository. It only requires modification of technical i 14 requirements and criteria as necessary to be consistent with
() 15 the new EPA environment and human-protection standards once 16 they've been promulgated. Further, the Energy Policy Act of 17 1992 does not mandate the Commission to expand its licensing 18 role to include setting standards for human safety and 19 environmental protection.
20 This action has been assigned by the Congress as 21 an independent responsibility of the Environmental 22 Protection Agency. I'm aware that the Commission has said 23 it will change its rule again if the final EPA standards are 24 different from those established by the Commission. But the 25 Commission's role and authority is to implement and enforce O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
8 1 the EPA standards, not attempt to dictate their substance
()
v 2 according to its own judgment.
l 3 The Commission directed the staff not to include a 4 groundwater protection standard in its recommended 5 site-specific Yucca Mountain licensing rule. This has the 6 effect of saying that while EPA's general repository 1 i
7 standards that apply to DOE's waste isolation pilot plant, 8 WIPP, in New Mexico, contain a groundwater protection 9 standard which is the same as that for all underground 10 sources of drinking water in the country -- is to say that l 11 the standard should not be applied at Yucca Mountain. The 12 implication is that this stringent groundwater protection 13 standard is not reasonable for a Yucca Mountain, Nevada 14 repository, and a lesser safety standard should apply there.
() 15 This directive was issued to the staff despite the 16 Commission's knowing that a Yucca Mountain repository would 17 produce significant radioactive contamination of the local 18 residents' source of water for drinking and agriculture.
19 The people of Nevada will not accept and Nevada law does not 20 permit this willful compromise of public safety.
21 It appears that the primary purposes of the 22 Commission's current rulemaking activity for a Yucca 23 Mountain repository are to accommodate DOE's schedule for 24 submitting a repository license application in 2002, and to 25 attempt to establish in advance of EPA action the substance 1
l l
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9 1- of a repository safety standard that will accommodate DOE'u
)
2 current understanding of a Yucca Mountain repository 3 performance. Neither of these purposes serves to advance 4 the regulatory goal of objectively evaluating whether the 5 Yucca Mountain potential repository site can be demonstrated l 6 to provide reasonable assurance of safety. i 7 I therefore urge you to defer issuance of any 8 proposed modifications to NRC repository regulations until 9 EPA has discharged its duty to set new safety standards that l
l 10 a Yucca Mountain high-level radioactive-waste repository 11 must meet in order to be granted a license. To do otherwise 12 raises serious concerns about the objectivity and the 13 independence of the regulatory process as it is applied to 14 evaluation of a potential Yucca Mountain repository.
() 15 And that's Governor Bob Miller. I think you hear 16 the issues that are involved there that are outside the l l 17 substance of what they relate to is the concern that the l
18 Commission issued its guidance to the staff for a 19 recommended rule in a way that came something as a surprise i 20 to people, also came without the Commission asking for 21 anybody's opinion of such important things as a groundwater 1
22 standards. We understand that there's much more involved in 23 the issue of the groundwater standard, but at the same time 24 we don't see that we have to be caught in the middle of that 25 larger issue when the statute is clear about who has what
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10 1 responsibilities in terms of standard-setting.
() 2 What I would ask, and this is on behalf of the 3 director of the agency, is that you consider the substance 4 of this letter and that you also as the Advisory Committee 5 consider recommending to Chairman Jackson the same as what t l
6 is recommended in this letter, and that's that it's l 7 premature to have the Nuclear Regulatory Commission modify I
8 or amend or issue a new rule relative to repository '
9 licensing until EPA discharges its duty, and also then 10 respect the division of authority where EPA sets the 11 environmental and health and safety standards, NRC is the 12 implementor. And I'm just asking that you consider doing 13 that.
14 It's timely in that the NRC staff has in maybe one !
f*h
() 15 of its boldest moods ever told the Commission when they need 16 a rule, a proposed rule to be published October 28, and that 17 has to do with other directives that they have -- they 18 primarily I believe are that we must have this new rule 19 within a year. Well, as you can tell from the letter, 20 "must" is not an issue in this case, it's merely to 21 accommodate a potential applicant, and I don't see the 22 Commission having done that for other potential applicants, 23 and in this case it's consumptive of a lot of resources when 24 that may not be necessary.
l 25 One of the other issues that's involved with the I
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11 1 staff recommendation that in the recommendation it says will
() 2 3
be the subject of another discussion somewhere down the line is the question of whether the Commission needs to hold 4 formal or informal licensing hearings. All I can tell you 5 at this point is yes, we will respond to that question when 6 it comes up, but at present we see absolutely no reason for 7 the Commission to move to informal' hearing whether it's for 8 streamlining purposes or whatever. What it does is it j l
9 denies all parties the ability to question the information, ;
10 data,. analyses, and models that are being used in this very
. 11 difficult judgment that is going to have to be made, and if j l
12 those aren't questioned, I think we have a long history l 13 showing if those aren't questioned, then they often are 14 wrong.
() 15 We have a sterling example of the unsaturated zone 16 hydrologic model that went for so many years in spite of 17 people saying that that model was not reflective in any way 18 of reality, when for so many years having that hammered in, 19 that now with the acceptance that an entirely different 20 conceptual system is working, you know, we've wasted a lot 21 of years, we've wasted a lot of money. We also don't even 22 have the same functional site that the Congress thought they 23 had in 1987. It's an entirely different system from what 24 Congress was led to believe they had, and later if we have a 25 proposed rule, one of the things we'll be talking about is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 12 1 for example the definition within the proposed rule of waste
,. ,\
2 containment and waste isolation, because Yucca Mountain has 3 forced those definitions to change, and that'll be a subject
! 4 for later discussion.
5 The question of the groundwater standard, as the 6 Governor said in his letter, it's I guess inconceivable that 1 7 we would have very different regulations for WIPP and for l 8 Yucca Mountain. And I'm not sure that that can be legally l
l 9 substantiated, it's not out of the question that that'll be 10 tested, but just from the standpoint of whether groundwater 11 protection ought to apply, and a very stringent groundwater 12 protection, if you look at the WIPP system, groundwater is 13 not even an issue, yet EPA -- drinkable groundwater -- yet 14 EPA felt that they needed to impose a groundwater protection t 15 standard.
16 Here groundwater is a major issue, and you've been 17 -drinking it the last three days. And to not protect the 18 groundwater and to put a 20-kilometer limit on where you l
19 measure or where you predict doses to a critical group means 20 that what you're doing is declaring essentially a sacrifice 21 zone of maybe 100 to 200 square kilometers just above that.
l 22 And what you're doing is you're contaminating the rest of 23 the aquifer and we have State laws, we have sort of a 24 Federal philosophy in environmental protection that we don't l 25 contaminate groundwater knowingly. And for the purpose of l
! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
!\ Court Reporters
- 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 l Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
l 13 1 Yucca Mountain, this is absolutely unnecessary. You know,
/ 2 if you have to do, in order to have a repository at Yucca 3 Mountain, if you have to do something that is unacceptable 4 in terms of contamination and pollution anywhere else in the 5 country, then maybe you just can't do it here either. And .
ge0 6 this again will be tested.
7 Now let me in looking at maps that I know you've C'
8 received from the center having to do with the water table /*
9 and its depth from the ground surface, and also looking at ,3 10 distances, as you're well aware, at the crossroad up here, 3 L
11 you're at about 20, 21 kilometers from the southern boundary 3c
- 12 ptE' of what's referred to as the footprint. The rule also 13 speaks to an NAS also -- the panel also recommended that you 60+
14 use current conditions when you try to determine pathways,
,30eti 15 biosphere, and looking at a critical group.
atpt le Well, if you noticed when you were turning the c.
17 corner up there, current conditions just changed very j 18 3s recently. There's one more farm, and there's a farm right ce 19 at that intersection. They have a well. You might have i od 20 noticed that they were sprinkling about an acre of land. .*
21 What I hear is that's going to increase to five acres, and 30 22 this person intends to grow garlic on those five acres at
)
23 that corner at about 21 kilometers. Given all of the @L 24 uncertainty in trying to estimate doses, there's not a lot L 25 of difference between 19 and 21 kilometer,, and that water O s
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l 13 l-1 Yucca Mountain, this is absolutely unnecessary. You know, j 2 if you have to.do, in order to have a repository at Yucca 3 Mountain, if you have to do something that is unacceptable 4 in terms of contamination and pollution anywhere else in the
! 5 country, then maybe you just can't do it here either. And 6 this again will be tested. l 7 Now let me in looking at maps that I know you've l
8 ~ received from the center having to do with the water table 9 and its depth from the ground surface, and also looking at l 10 distances, as you're well aware, at the crossroad up here, 11 you're at about 20, 21 kilometers f rom the southern boundary-12 of what's referred to as the footprint. The rule also 13 speaks to an NAS also -- the panel also recommended that you 14 use current conditions when you try to determine pathways,
- () 15 biosphere, and looking at a critical group.
16 Well, if you noticed when you were turning the l
17 corner up there, current conditions just changed very 18 recently. There's one more farm, and there's a farm right 19 at that intersection. They have a well. You might have 20 noticed that they were sprinkling about an acre of land.
(- 21 What I hear is that's going to increase to five acres, and l
l 22 this person intends to grow garlic on those five acres at 23 that corner at about 21 kilometers. Given all of the 24 uncertainty in trying to estimate doses, there's not a lot 25 of difference between 19 and 21 kilometers, and that water
, [~
v ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034 r
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14 1 - is. going to be contaminated whether you're at 19 or 21
'[ }
'2 kilometers.
l 3 Let!s look at some other things. If you think in 4 the future there's a possibility of land being used north of 5 Highway 95, which there's a real possibility of, and look at 6 land that is flat enough to carry out some type of activity, l
7 whether it s farming,'whether it's a feedlot, whether it's 8 an industrial development that has its -- has a well as a 9 source of water, there is one area west of Forty Mile Wash .
l
( 10 that's at about 13 kilometers from the southern boundary of '
11 I
the footprint, depth to the water table is only about 150 l 12 meters as opposed to the staff's apparent insistence that 13 nobody could afford to grow beyond 100 meters -- this is 14 outrageous and ridiculous -- so at about 13 kilometers you
() 15 have that.
[ 16 I guess we'll go to what I think is one of the 17 interesting and sort of dramatic approaches. One of the l
18 things you learn very early in life is you don't poison your 19 own well. Well, look at J-13. J-13 is the current water 20 source for Area 25. J-13 is six kilometers from the 21 southern boundary of the footprint. Depth to the water 22 table is about 275 meters. And this is a well that is a
- 23 ' water well -- that is a water supply well.
24 Now you might be thinking in terms of well, it's j 25 so far in the future, you know, what do you care, and a lot l
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15 1 of people have said that to me, but at the same time the
[d i 2
'3 Department of Energy's own well is going to be the first one contaminated and the first one that's going to have to be 4 put cut of use if we say as the proposed or as the 5 recommended rule says and as the Board on Radioactive Waste 6 said to current conditions. Well, current conditions is the 7 Department of Energy is poisoning its water supply for Area 8 25. Now there are other issues involved with Area 25.
9 You know, the Department is on this really 10 aggressive approach to find new diverse uses for the Nevada 11 Test Site. Area 25 is a prime area for that because it has 12 been less used than some other areas of the test site, and 13 there is active recruitment looking for industries to find 14 that working at the Nevada Test Site is economically C 15 beneficial to everyone. So what's the Department proposing 16 to do, and what is the Commission proposing to allow in 17 regulation? The poisoning of the water supply for Area 25.
18 This doesn't make a lot of sense.
19 If you look at J-13, you say okay, we have an 20 alternate. Well, J-13 is ten kilometers. Depth to water 21 table is about 225 meters. The well exists. If you're 22 poisoning J-13, you're poisoning J-12 as well. I seem to 23 recall that J-12 and J-13 are there because there were a 24 couple attempts to get large producing water wells for Area 25 25 in other areas of Jackass Flats and they didn't work out.
N ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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16 1 They didn't produce enough water of sufficient quality. So (J \ 2 3
these are the wells.
Now in line with thinking about who the critical l
4 group is, is it possible that there are alternatives to the 5 farming community laid out in the recommendation? One that 6 comes to mind is for instance you have a quarry working 7 right now at the Lathrop Wells Cone. They need water for 8 dust suppression, and a fair amount of water is required 9 just to meet dust-suppression regulations. Lathrop Wells 10 Cone is at 15 kilometers. Depth to the water table is 125 11 meters. And it's possible that the workers at Lathrop Wells i 1
12 Cone or maybe even workers in sand and gravel operations l l
13 that would be at that distance or even closer may be more !
14 reflective of the maximum-dosed individuals than a farming O
i
) 15 community put at 20 kilometers. I think it's entirely 16 possible mostly from the inhalation dose.
17 So I have not seen any exploration of alternative 18 critical groups, and I think this is something that needs to 19 be looked at before we have a definition of a critical group 20 only because it represents people taking sort of a quick 21 look at this area, artificially saying we have to deal --
22 we're going to say that what's here now is what's here 23 forever, which means that that's going to be the dose 24 receptor, also saying the climate is essentially not going 25 to change, which we know it's going to. Ten thousand years
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17 1 ago at 20 kilometers there were springs at the surface, and 2 we have one spring deposit right here at Lathrop Wells that 1
3- is actually some of the deposits are. younger than 10,000 4 years.
5 So we're questioning -- back to the Governor's 6 letter, what we're questioning is the direction that the 7 Commission gave to the staff for a rule recommendation that 8 we think is sadly incomplete in the information used and l 9 available for consideration.
f 10 Now I was going to go through one other issue, but 11 I see that my time according to your standards, and I 12 don't -- I believe you're correct in wanting to leave much 13 time for discussion. I won't go to a third area, because it 14 has to do with a much broader philosophy of regulation, and
() 15 .I think the Governor's letter and your consideration of that 16 is more important than my giving you another ten minutes' 17 worth of where regulation I think ought to be going as '
18 opposed to where it is going. So maybe I've given you 19 enough to where we can have a nice early-morning discussion. :
20 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thanks, Steve. i 21 All right, let me ask the Committee members first '
i 22 if they have some questions. George?
23 DR. HORNBERGER: Steve, clearly we're all on the 24 same page in terms of wanting to protect groundwater, and I 25 think one argument would be that an all-pathway standard is 4
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18 1 not forgoing protecting groundwater. It's simply making a 2 measure, if you will, that is more clearly understandable on
(}
3 the protection of not only groundwater but all the other 4 potential pathways for getting a dose to humans.
1 5 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, in this situation we know, 6 with the exception of carbon-14, we know we're dealing with 7 groundwater, and we can estimate what the pathways would be, 8 and as I said before, we might want to look at some 9 alternative critical groups. But I think the primary issue 10 is groundwater in this country when it is an underground l 11 source of drinking water, which it clearly is here, ;
12 groundwater is protected to what many people might believe 13 is too rigorous an extent, but groundwater is protected ;
14 under existing law and regulation, and what we question here j
() 15 in Nevada is why is this groundwater proposed to be any less 1
16 protected than drinking water supplies anyplace else in the 17 country. l 18 And I can't find a defensible answer for that 19 other than the fact that Yucca Mountain is the only site, 20 and we've been through quite a few years of trying to change 21 the rules rather than recognize what you have and don't have 22 at Yucca Mountain in the way of waste isolation as I and the 23 general public defines it, meaning the waste doesn't leave 24 the repository, in spite of what the proposed or recommended 25 definition of waste isolation is.
i l
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19 l 1 So it's a matter of health and safety, it's a
() 2 3
matter of equity, and it's an issue that especially in the Southwest doesn't go away.
l Groundwater is limited.
Groundwater limits economic activity.
~
4 This State is'doing l
5 everything it can to, you know, remain a State that is 6 economically healthy, and for the Federal Government to 7 decide and Federal regulators to bless the sacrifice of 8 . groundwater in the West is unconscionable.
And if'you think about 20 kilometers, let's just 9 -'
10 take a wild example that I use sometimes, if there were a i 11' proposed repository for instance in the State of l
12 Pennsylvania.-- they produce a lot of wastes -- maybe they I 13 ought to be looked at for a repository -- if there were a l 14 proposed repository in the State of Pennsylvania, do you 15 think any of.us would have anything to talk about right now l 16 at all if the Nuclear Regulatory Commission proposed that 17 from the repository to the nearest person 20 kilometers away 18 is a sacrifice zone? Do you think the people in the State 19 of Pennsylvania would stand still for that? I don't think 20 so. To have a regulatory institution that is supposedly 21 working for the benefit of public health and safety to say 22 we have to sacrifice natural resources, meaning we have to 23 sacrifice the ability for people to safely live, is 24 outrageous, and it would not be allowed anyplace else in the j 25 country, and it isn't going to be allowed here. As you can l
- f)
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.l 20
- 1 tell, I'm somewhat bolstered by the Governor's courage.
() 2 3
[ Laughter.)
CHAIRMAN CARRICK: Ray.
4 MR. WYMER: Well, I don't know, you know, I'm 5 certainly sympathetic to your point of view. There is a 6 difference, of course, between what I see out here and what 7 I see in Pennsylvania when I look out, so there are local 8 differences that should make differences in how situations 9 are treated, physical realities that you have to deal with.
10 MR. FRISHMAN: Pennsylvania's just 200 years ahead 11 of us in terms of population spreading around. We're 12 talking about something that's a matter of more than 13 curiosity for way more than 200 years.
14 MR. WYMER: Yes. Well, this is a desert.
() 15 MR. FRISHMAN: 10,000 years ago it wasn't.
16 MR. WYMER: Well, that's a long time. And the 17 other thing that sort of struck me was -- and I'm just --
18 we're kicking it around, you know --
19 MR. FRISHMAN: That's what I'm here for.
20 MR. WYMER: You said some of these water supplies 21 are being poisoned. Well, you know, poisoned is pretty 22 severe. The real question is how much poison, what is the 23 dose, you know, how bad is it. You don't want to get into 24 emotionally charged words without --
25 MR. FRISHMAN: For J-13 if you look at the ANN RILE & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
21 1 Department's. performance assessments we're talking tens to 2 hundreds of remo for J-13. I call that poison.
3 MR. WYMER: Per year?
l 4 MR. FRISHMAN: Yes.
5 MR. WYMER: I didn't know.it was that high.
6 MR. FRISHMAN: You get to the five-kilometer line l
7 and things look very, very different.
8 MR. WYMER: As opposed to the 20, 9 MR. FRISHMAN. Right. j 10 MR. WYMER: Well, those are the only two kind of 11 comments I wanted to make that -- you need to clarify what i 12 words mean. You just have.
13 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, I guess I could respond in 1
14 one way, and that's we're not looking for sympathy, we're
. g,) 15 looking for reason. I 16 MR. WYMER: Yes. Well, that's -- we all know 17 that.
l 18 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: And I think that's what we're 19 looking for. Certainly the perspective of the Committee is 20 to protect the health and safety. That's why there is a 21 Committee. That's why we're here. That's why most of us 22 have dedicated our careers to trying to understand what the 23 risk is, what the threats are, and not having very much 24 confidence as a matter of fact in some of the laws, because 25 the laws do not guarantee the protection of the health and
(.
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22 1 safety of the public. Knowledge, truth, understanding is a
( ) 2 much better basis to make judgments about safety.
3 We all know that every regulated industry has 4 accidents and that they find that there's opportunities 5 outside the laws and especially the prescriptive guidance 6 that comes from those laws for things to go wrong, and I 7 like to say that one of the reasons that that happens too 8 often is because people are so focused on the laws that they 9 don't understand the phenomena. They don't understand 10 what's really going on. They don't understand what's more 4
11- fundamental than the law. And I think that's what this 12 Committee is striving to do.
13 We're not here as experts on regulations. We're 14 not here as experts on the groundwater standard. -But we are 15 here pushing as hard as we can to understand something much 16 more fundamental than a groundwater standard. I don't have 17 much confidence in a lot of the regulations, and that is 18 phenomenologically what's taking place. And that is can we 19 ' develop a knowledge base that this Committee has confidence 20 in recommending to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission that 21 the reasonable-assurance aspect of the law can be met.
22 So I think to equate, and that's what you're 23 somewhat doing, equate safety to the standards in the laws 24 is misrepresenting what actually takes place and confuses 25 the public. And we're not going to be trapped into that.
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23 1 We're going to stay very focused on what the issues are,
( 2 what the underlying phenomena is, and what the genuine l 3 threats are that we have to worry about. And if we can't do 4 that, then we shouldn't be here. We're certainly not here 5 to defend and understand a legal requir' ment. e That's a 6 given. That has to be done, however it falls out.
4 7 But even there, once we have satisfied ourselves 8 that we're in compliance, this Committee isn't going to be 9 satisfied. This Committee's going to be satisfied only when 10 we feel there's enough understanding of what's taking place 11 that this repository can be constructed, can be operated 12 without threatening public safety. And I think, you'know, ,
13 the whole issue here is truth, knowledge, there is 14 uncertainty with everything a society does. l
() 15 When we build bridges, there's uncertainty. We 16 build airplanes, there's uncertainty. And there are no 17 absolutes, and that's what makes it difficult. But we can't 18 allow ourselves to get into a frame of mind where some 19 things have to be absolute and other things are not and 20 completely create chaos with respect to the kinds of 21 exposures and threats that a public are exposed to.
22 So we're very anxious to hear these views. We 23 want to see what they contribute to the fundamental 24 understanding of what takes place. And we're convinced that 25 when we're convinced that the thing is safe that indeed we O
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24 1 will be in compliance. But the compliance is not the driver 2 is my point. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission it is the
{)
3 -driver, but not from the standpoint of trying to push for
\-
4: . increased understanding'of what is actually taking place.
k 5 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, I guess I was appealing to a 6 portion of what I see and what you've been working on, you 7 know, your strategy.
8 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Um-hum.
9 MR. FRISHMAN: And I'm appealing to something that 10 is beyond what you say is, you know, the questionable nature 11 of the regulation.
12 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. To say that we're --
3 MR. FRISHMAN: And I believe that your duty is --
14' to the Commission is much broader than that.
15- CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
16 MR. FRISHMAN: And what I'm doing is something 17 that to me is fundamentally pretty simple.
18 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
- 19 MR. FRISHMAN: I'm going to the only appeal place 20 I have, and that's what the Governor --
21 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Right.
22 MR. FRISHMAN: Is doing to the Commission.
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
24 MR. FRISHMAN: That your role certainly includes 25 commenting to the Commission on regulations that might be O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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25 1 thought of because every time you say safe, you may have a 2
( concept of safe, the Commission establishes that concept of 3 safe, and the recipients of whether it's really safe or not 4 have little to nothing to say about it.
5 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. Well --
- 6. MR. FRISHMAN: And what I'm saying is that we 7 deserve no less --
8 CHAIRMAN GAERICK: Right.
9 MR. FRISHMAN: A safety standard here than the 10 same standard that's applied everyplace else.
11 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. And part of our interest, )
12 as you heard yesterday, is to make sure that the recipients 13 do have something to say about it, and that's what we are 14 struggling with as a body, of how to enhance that process,
() -15 and have concluded that we have to be more creative.
16 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, I hope I'm being a prime 17 example.
18 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. Yes.
19 Okay. Any comments, questions from the staff?
20 Mike, have you got any comment?
21 MR. BELL: Well, I guess I'd like some guidance 22 from the Committee as to what if any --
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Well, I don't think we want to 24 solve the --
25 MR. BELL: I don't think we want to start trying i
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26 1 to respond --
2 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
3 MR. BELL: Point by point.
4 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: No, I think if you had a 5 question, clarify what he said, but you didn't understand 6 something, the whole idea here is to make sure that we 7 understand what Steve's --
8 MR. BELL: Well, no, I think I understand his 9' points. I think, you know, from his comments he may not 10 understand some of the things that are behind what the 11 staff --
12 CHA.IRMAN GARRICK: Yes. ,
13 .MR. BELL: Is doing. You know, for example, '
14 relook at the hearing procedure is not something that we're l
O
( ,/ 15 doing just for Yucca Mountain because, you know, we want to 16 simplify the procedure for Yucca Mountain. Our Senate
- 17 oversight committee directed us essentially to relook at the 1
'18 hearing process for the whole agency. The perception is the 19 NRC hearing process takes too long and is not what Congress 20 intended when they gave us authority to regulate atomic 21 energy in the Atomic Energy Act.
1 22 And I might point out that the same EPA that 23 certified WIPP did not use the mandatory hearing process, 24 they use the notice-and-comment process, much simpler l 25 procedure, and Congress is in fact asking NRC why can't you l
l l
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27 1 use a procedure like EPA does.
2 CHAIRMAN GARRICK:
( Yes. Well --
'3 MR. BELL: I guess another. point that may have 4 left people with some misunderstanding is that, you know, 5- it's not the staff that:is going out and coming up with 6 'these locations and habits and such -- Congress in the 7 Energy Policy Act directed the EPA to have the National 8 Academy of Sciences make recommendations on what Yucca 9 Mountain standards'should be, and basically what we've done 10 in the draft rule just implements the National Academy of 11 Sciences' recommendations, not some arbitrary' staff act.
12 MR. FRISHMAN: With the exception of the 13 10,000-year cutoff, with the exception of two orders of 14 magnitude in risk, you picked and chose what you wanted.
() 15 MR. BELL: Well, and, you'know, I --
16 MR. FRISHMAN: The report was very direct in its 17 recommendation that you look at peak doses at whatever point 18 they occur. You picked 10,000 years. And that'll probably 19 be litigated.
20 MR. BELL: I think --
21 MR. FRISRMAN: The judge invited us to on the last 22 EPA lawsuit.
23 MR. BELL: The exact wording of the Academy report 24 is there is no technical reason why you can't look at peak 25 doses, but for regulatory purposes,.the Agency, you know, O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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28 d
1 may choose to do something else, and that's essentially -- i
() 2 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, all I'm saying is that when 3 you represent the staff recommendation as being just down l 4 the line with the Academy committee, it is not. l j
5 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Well, I think that the 6 Committee has written letters on this subject, and certainly 7 the two things you have to keep in mind, one is what the 8 standard is and what the part 63 is trying to achieve, and 9 the other is what the advice is beyond that standard.
10 MR. FRISHMAN: Well, what I am saying is that this 11 discussion right now is timely to within a week or two.
12 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. Yes. But the point I 13 want to make, Steve, is that many of the things you say, 14 such as the peak dose, are things this committee has
() 15 recommended, we ought to know. So there is a difference, 16 again, between what the standard requires and
- hat this 17 committee has recommended in terms of our understanding.
18 This committee, as a matter of fact, even before the 19 National Academy of Sciences, advocated that the analysis 20 ought to include an accountability of the peak dose.
1 21 MR. FRISHMAN: And I have participated in many of 22 your meetings where we have discussed.
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
24 MR. FRISHMAN: And in great depth.
25 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. So I think that for the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 29 )
l l
1 sake of the public, I think that it is important.to know t
~
that our perspective is not a legal perspective.
[V \ 2 Our 3 perspective is what kind of analyses, what kind of 1
4 calculations, what kind of information will provide us with I i
l 5 the greatest confidence about the performance of the 1 6 repository, and it will continue to be that way. And we are 7 fundamentally, as George said, in agreement with a lot of 8 things you are saying. !
9 We are in agreement with protecting the l 10 groundwater. We are talking about a prescriptive process 11 that may or may not protect the groundwater, but we are 12 certainly in agreement with protecting the resources. We f 13 are certainly in agreement with protecting the public to a 14 reasonable accessible boundary.
A
() 15 So I think that the one thing we are hopeful is 16 that in the course of these kinds of discussions, we avoid 17 the interpretations of the committee's actions as being )
18 highly legalistic and highly compliance oriented, and highly l l
19 focused on just the regulations, but, rather, focus --
20 MR. FRISHMAN: I am well aware of that, but I also 21 know that you are -- as a federal advisory committee, you 22 are positioned to where you not only deal with what the 23 regulations are, --
24 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Right.
l 25 MR. FRISHMAN: -- but you have some influence on t
1 i
l i
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l 30 1 what those regulations will be.
O
[V 2 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
3 MR. FRISHMAN: And I appreciate that, and that is 4 why I am making this type of an appeal to you today, because 5 while it seems a legalistic issue, what it really comes down l 6 to is that the technical credibility of what might be 7 proposed and whether it is be proposed within a framework i
8 that carries the information that you can provide. '
9 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
10 MR. FRISHMAN: I think the directive from the 11 Commission to the staff for a recommendation should have had 12 the benefit of this type of conversation, rather that it !
13 being essentially a staff-generated directive that the 14 Commission took and dropped back. I think a lot more was
() 15 needed than that. And this is why the Governor's letter is 16 going the way it is. It has little to do with the substance 17 of the recommendation. It has to do with how that 18 recommendation came to be.
19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: If you could --
l 20 MR. FRISHMAN: Came to be in a way that we believe l
l 21 is particularly detrimental to the people in this state. '
22 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Is your recommendation, if I 23 can refer to it as a recommendation, that we go back to Part 24 60 in its current form? Is your recommendation to modify i
25 the draft Part 63? Is your recommendation to implement the l
l l
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31 1 EPA Standard 40 CFR 191? If you could make a concrete
[~}
%d 2 recommendation.
3 MR. FRISHMAN. My recommendation is that the 4 Commission do nothing in the way or rulemaking until EPA has 5 promulgated the standard that they were directed to 6 promulgate in the Energy Policy Act of 1992, and at that 7 time the Commission determine the extent to which, to use 8 the word of law, the extent to which it is necessary to l 9 modify its licensing rule to be consistent with that 10 standard.
11 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yeah. And I assume you are 12 aware of the fact that the NRC and the EPA have not been ;
l 13 working in a completely stovepipe fashion. ,
l 14 MR. FRISHMAN: I am absolutely aware of that. I f
( )j 15 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Right. And that they do have 16 exchange --
17 MR. FRISHMAN: And I know that this argument, --
18 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
19 MR. FRISHMAN: -- especially over groundwater, is 20 one that this rule got caught up in.
21 ;. CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. I 22 MR. FRISHMAN: It wasn't the driver.
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Okay.
24 MR. FRISHMAN: And I know that it is a dispute 25 that -- I am not sure anybody is willing to bet on how it l
1
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32 l 1 comes out yet. I also know it has a lot to do with
,[ s) 2 personalities, and maybe not quite as much to do with what G
3 'is really protecting the human health and safety.
4- CHAIRMAN GARRICK: That could be on both sides.
5 MR. FRISHMAN: Yet . That's what I mean.
6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Okay.
7 MR. FRISHMAN: And with new people --
8 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Right.
9' MR. FRISHMAN: -- the argument may be a different 10 argument.
11 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Are there 12 any other questions for Tom? Yes, Andy.
13 DR. CAMPBELL: Are you saying Steve that the State 14 of Nevada does accept the four millirem groundwater, or
() 15 drinking water, 15 millirem all pathways at five kilometers 16 as an acceptable safety standard? ;
I 17 MR. FRISHMAN: I didn't say five kilometers.
18 DR. CAMPBELL: But that is the EPA standard used 19 for web.
20 MR. FRISHMAN: We have -- that is the standard 21 that is applied to web.
22 DR. CAMPBELL: Right.
23 MR. FRISHMAN: We have maximum contaminant levels 24 that are the equivalent of the Safe Drinking Water Act 25 maximum contaminant level.
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33 1 DR. CAMPBELL: That's what the four millirem is.
[~) 2 MR. FRISHMAN: And we, in this state, we V
3 independently regulate, and we have in a few cases given 4 buffer zones, but in most cases there are no buffer zones.
5 And in those few cases --
6 DR. CAMPBELL: So the state wants to be more 7 restrictive than the EPA standard?
8 MR. FRISHMAN: Yeah. Those few cases of buffer 9 zones had to do with real case by case considerations about 10 whether -- whether the water was drinkable, whether there 11 was any possible projection of population that would want to 12 use that water in a particular small area in the future when 13 water isn't really moving very far, or very fast. Those are 14 real exceptions. It is -- you do not contaminate b
q_,/ 15 underground resources of drinking water. And it is MCLs and 16 those are derived directly from the Safe Drinking Water Act, 17 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: All right. Any other 18 questions?
19 [No response.]
20 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: All right. Thanks.
21 MR. FRISHMAN: Okay. Well, thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you.
23 MR. FRISHMAN: I hope I got your day off to an 24 exciting start.
25 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Okay. I think we are going to i
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34 l . .
l 1 -hear from the Nye County people now, and I will ask them to
()
i 2 simply introduce themselves, their affiliations, et cetera, 3 and to provide the recorder with a business card if you have 4 such a thing.
5 MR. BLACK: Good morning, my name is Tom Buqo, I 6 am a hydrogeologist, I am consultant to Nye County. And I
l 7 this morning I would like to give you a brief overview of 8 our early warning drilling program. I don't want to talk l
9 about policy, so.
l 10 The early warning drilling program is an 11 initiative by the Nye County Nuclear Waste Repository l j
12 Project Office, in consultation and cooperation with the 13 following organizations and agencies. We couldn't be doing i
14 this without the Department of Energy and their support l
) 15 through their grant. We are working in consultation with
)
16 the U.S. Geological Survey. We are going to have i
.1 17 participation from the University of Nevada system, the l
18 Harry Reid Environmental Center, and with the Yucca Mountain 19 M&O contractors listed down below of our Nye County support
- 20. contractors.
21 The "why" of the program. First and foremost, Nye 22 County is concerned about the health and public safety. So 23 this monitoring program wants to protect those.
t.
i 24 Secondly, we want to address the data gap down the l 25' gradient of Yucca Mountain, in between the area where the Lh l \/ %
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35 1 size characterization studies have been done, and the
() 2 populated areas of Amargosa Valley.
3 Third, we want to provide a long-term monitoring 4 capability. Our objectives for this program are to get the 5 data that will allow us to design a comprehensive long-term 6 monitoring program. To do that, we need to identify the 7 preferential pathways that allow groundwater flow to move 8 through the geologic media down the gradient of Yucca 9 Mountain. We want to define the hydraulic 10 interrelationships between our three aquifer systems, our 11 alluvium, our volcanics and our carbonate aquifer. I I
12 Then, lastly, we want to look at -- we know that 13 the repository has the potential to impact the water 14 resources. We also believe the future water resources
() 15 development in'the region has a potential to impact the 16 repository performance.
17 Let's talk about the "what" specifically.
18 Altogether, the early warning drilling program is comprised 19 of 22 shallow and deep monitoring well sets. In fiscal year 20 1998 we propose to deal six of those wells and we plan to 21 drill one single completion monitoring well at one location.
22 We plan to drill one test well for future testing, and do 23 one recompletion of existing oil and gas well that is 24 sitting out there in Amargosa Valley.
25 As part of these investigations we will do all the O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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1 standard science that you do for this type of drilling
' () 2 3
program. We will be doing some selective coring to look at the paleo spring deposits. We will be doing standard 4 logging, some very detailed petrographic studies. We will 5 do the full. series of standard geophysical logging. We are 6 also looking now at digital scanning that will give us like !
7 a core simulation without the costlof actually coring.
8 We will have an aquifer testing program. These 9 are multiple completion wells that will have anywhere from 10 three to seven horizons completed. We plan to do single l
11 well tests in which one of those horizons. Then, using our 12 test wells, we will do some long-term constant discharge
- 13. tests that will allow to do some cross-hole testing. Then l 14 at the end of the testing program, we will sit back, we will
() 15 take a look at what our budget is, what we have got left, l 16 and then we want to go in and test as many farm wells in l 17. Amargosa Valley as our budget allows.
18 'With respect to water sampling, that will be a big 19 part of the program, too, and this is where cooperating 20 agencies come in and help out. We will testing any purged I -21 water that we encounter and we will be looking at water at 22' each one of their horizons. We, of course, will be looking 23 at the Safe Drinking Water Act constituents, the standard 24 CAD ions and AD ions.
25 Above and beyond that, the Harry Reid center will l
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37 1 be at rare earth elements and doing some of their new work l
[ 2 in that area, and the U.S. Geological Survey will be doing
(
3 the isotope work and helping us out with that, and doing the 4 important interpretations there.
l 5 The "where" and "why there." Dr. Montazer 6 selected the sites for the early warning drilling program, 7 he and Nick Stellavato, our program manager. These have 8 been reviewed. We have worked with the Department of Energy 9 and the USGS. We have had to make some changes based on 10 that. DOE and USGS gave us some wonderful surfacial l 11 geophysical surveys that allowed us to move some of the well 12 sites to maximize the use of the dollars being spent.
13 There's areas out there where we can't hope to go in and 14 drill into the carbonate aquifer because it is 5,000-6,000 (Q,, 15 feet deep. We feel our resources are better spent.
16 All the siting criteria were, of course, located 17 down gradient of Yucca Mountain, were located on what we 18 believe to be the probable pathways for groundwater flow, 19 and were located to invest the key geological structures out 20 there that might be impacting groundwater flow directions 7.1 and rates.
22 Our scientific rationale. I don't have time this 23 morning to get into that, but I would like to point out the 24 bottom item there. What seems to be a good monitoring 25 network right now may not be so good 50 or 100 years from l
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38 1 now, and our testing program is aimed at looking at that
( 2 very thing. The flow paths may be altered because of future 3 development in Nye County, What you see now, this building 4 wasn't here 10 years ago and that golf course wasn't here.
5 Nye County is changing. As we change, our growth is built 6 on groundwater. So where you see us taking water out now is 1
7 not likely to be the same as where it will be 50 or 100 I 8 years, so we want to asseEs that.
9 We also concerned that active groundwater controls 10 at the Nevada test site may be employed. They are a decade 11 away from a decision yet on what they are going to do about 12 the testing areas, so we have to factor that in. And, 13 finally, we have got reasonable cancerns that Las Vegas l i
14 continues to grow and pump more water. How is that going to l O 15 affect our system?
( ,/
16 A little orientation here. Let's see, this is the 17 lake-wells ir.tr rsection. This is the Nevada test site 18 boundary up here. Overall, we are basically running a 19 couple of picket lines and monitoring wells. Starting out 20 here, our first year of wells will run a picket down through 21 this general area. In the second year, we will be putting 22 in a second picket line up through that area. In the third 23 year, things are a little fuzzy right now because our third 24 year wells will be predicated in part on the results of the 25 first two years of drilling.
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39 1 But here we have a lot of data up to the north at
[ )\
\.
2 Yucca Mountain. We have the well development in Amargosa 3 Valley going on here. As Mr. Frishman mentioned, there's 4 big plans for development up north of Highway 95. Nye 5 County has a couple of initiatives going on there. One is 6 the Nevada Science and Technology corridor. An integral 7 part of that is the Nevada Science Museum. We want to put a 8 state of the art museum right out here in this section of 9 land, along with the business part, to attract some of the 10 activities that can't be done on a test site, but we still 11 want those coming into the country. We want to provide them 12 with a business part to do them.
13 Let's talk a little bit about the "when." We hope 14 to begin drilling the first week of November, okay, and have
/~
(_) 15 drilling done in the late February, early March time frame, 16 and have our testing for the phase one done by the end of 17 the fiscal year. Next fiscal year, more drilling, eight 18 more well sets, more testing, more sampling. The same thing 19 with 2001, drill five more wells, that's more sampling, more 20 testing.
21 Our progress -- we are doing good. You just can't 22 go plunk a hole out in the desert anyplace you want to 23 anymore, you have to meet the regulatory requirements. We 24 have put in our environmental assessment, to be get us the l 25 access to get in and out of these well sites and set the l
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40 1 requirements for reclamation. That is in their internal 1
2' . review process. We hope to be hearing from them soon.
(} )
3 We have applied to the appropriate state agencies 1
4 for the waivers necessary. We have to have waivers, L
5 because, you know, Nevada water law wasn't written for west )
6 bay style completion, so you don't factor that in. So we 7 are working with them on that. We will need to get 8 temporary discharge permits to do some of our aquifer 9 testing, and we have already gotten an air quality permit t
10 exemption for the drilling rigs.
1 11 Quality assurance is a big part of this program. l I l 12 We want to have as broad a base of use of this, so it is 13 going to be done under Nye County's NQA-1 program. Our work 14 plans listed there are now being finalized. We are getting s
15 ready to go into our readiness review in anticipation of l 16 starting mode.
17 Then, finally, the contracting. This is a little 18 out of date. The bid specifications for the wells have been
'19 put together, finalized, and are currently out on the 20 streets and, even as we speak, there's people out there 21 . feverishly writing, no doubt, to respond to that. So we 22 hope to be getting some good bids in real soon from the 23 drilling contractor.
24 So in a nutshell, for an overview, that is it. If 25 you have any questions.
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l- 1 DR. HORNBERGER: Tom, are you going to have water
() 2 3
level recorders in the' wells, and are you going to record the levels in each section?
4 MR. BUQO: Oh, absolutely. During the drilling, 5 we will be taking a close look at the water-because we want 6 to make sure if there is any fresh waters out there, we' hit 7 that, and that we get samples of it. It will be a one --
8 one time only chance on those purge zones. We won't be 9 . monitoring those. But everything will be done, in terms of-L l
10 a long-term monitoring program, we will do some continuous i
11- monitoring, you know, that is expensive. But we will do I 12 routine water level monitoring, certainly.
13 DR. HORNBERGER: Okay. And the other question I 14 had, you referred, of course, to the data gap that you are
() -15 helping to fill, and part of the data gap has to do with the 16 material properties of the alluvium. Are there any plans to 17 characterize the core material, the limiting amount of 18 ' coring that you are going to do?
19 MR. BUQO: Our current program calls for the 20 coring of the paleo spring deposits in three locations. We 21 . are not going to be trying to core the alluvium, but we will 22 be doing the petrographic studies, the detail studies. One 23 of the interesting things, Las Vegas Valley Water District 24 right now has gone one of these west bay wells in the 25- alluvium out in northwest Las Vegas, and what they are l
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j 1 finding out is that the flow within the alluvium is very
(~') 2 localized, and you can get 90 percent of the flow coming V
3 through 10 percent of stream horizon.
4 DR. HORNBERGER: Does anyone have any plans to do l
5 things like sorption studies on any of the material that you 6 would recover? I l 7 MR. BUQO: Not that I am aware of at this time, 8 but the samples are going to be curated through the Yucca 9 Mountain sample management facility, and they will be open 10 to any principal investigator who wants to come in and 11 conduct those types of studies.
12 DR. WYMER: Will you be putting tracers in?
13 MR. BUQO: Pardon me?
14 DR. WYMER: Will you be putting tracers down A
V 15 somewhere?
16 MR. BUQO: We are working now with the USGS and 17 the Department of Energy to look at a tracer experiment, to 18 kind of dovetail a couple of things. And that is in this 19 area right up here. It is south of the Bustard Butte area 20 and we are designing, in consultation again with the DOE and 21 the USGS, how to place our wells. These would be the ones 22 that would be closest to Yucca Mountain, so they are ideally 23 suited for monitoring of it, and we also feel that we can 24 work with the others to maximize the information we get by 25 doing tracer studies. Nye County won't be doing them. We l
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t l
43 I
L 1 will be oversight and looking at the results generated by
() 2 .the USGS in the national labs.
3 DR. WYMER: How long will this program of sampling 4 and analysis continue?
i 5 MR. BUQO: We don't know. It is a big cost, you l 6 know, just going in, and we are looking at a couple of '
7 hundred individual sampling horizons altogether. So part of 8 .our goal for the three year is to go in and identify a more 9 restricted list of indicator parameters so that we can 10 economically go in. The reasonably foreseeable future is l 11 what we see right now for any type of monitoring.
l p 12 DR. WYMER: Ten years?
l 13 MR. BUQO: We want to develop a good baseline and 14 then continue it as long as the waste program goes forward.
() 15 DR. BELL: Is six wells enough to characterize the 16 --
I i
! 17 MR. BUQO: It is a lot more than we have now. j 18 [ Laughter.]
19 MR. BUQO: You know, I am hydrogeologist, I would 20 love to be sticking holes all over the place down there, but 21 there are the realities. And that is one of the reasons we 22 are going with the multiple level completions. We are 23 looking for preferential pathways. And we know that if some t
24 of the sediments in Amargosa Valley -- I have got a picture 25 to show you, I just happene.d to bring.
l
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44 1 And there are regional' groundwater flow models.
~'\ They model this alluvium as one layer, and I have a problem
[Y 2 3 with that because it is not alluvium, it is valley fill 4 deposits. So what we have done is we have expanded this one 5 layer out to show what is going on. We have alluvium, we 6 have got a very basalt, not everywhere under Amargosa ;
! l 7 Valley, but under certain areas. Then that overlays more !
8 alluvium. We have surfacial sandstones and tufts out there 9 of freshwater limestone that is sitting out there, that has 10 been penetrating a couple of wells, overlying more tufts, 11 overlying sandstones and granite tufts, then these gravels 12 and paleozoic blocks that are alternately called megabreccia 13 or landslide deposit, all before we get to the paleozoic 14 surface.
(~N
() 15 So when I mentioned the preferential pathways, we 16 . want to look at, within the alluvium, are there channel 17 deposits? I work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal in Denver. We l
18 have found that preferential pathway paleo-channel deposits
- 19 looking for a different picture on the contaminant 20 distribution. The same thing as the base with the basalts.
21 From the drilling, we know there are some tremendous lost 22 circulation zones at that base of the basalt and the 23 carbonate aquifer. We want to get in and set some of our l 24 ports opposite those, so we get samples on those. We feel 25 that that is where the bulk of the flow is coming down l
~'
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45 )
1 . gradient of Yucca Mountain, is through these preferential (y 2 pathways. So, yeah, --
3 DR. HORNBERGER: Do you have -- I missed it -- do l 4 you have at least one of your wells going to the paleozoic?
- 5. MR. BUQO: Oh, yes. All the deep wells.
6 DR. HORNBERGER: All of the -- and how many were 7 they? I'm sorry?
8 MR. BUQO: We will be putting in, I believe, five 9 wells this fiscal year --
10 DR. HORNBERGER: Okay. l 11 MR. BUQO: -- that will get into the paleozoics.
12 DR. HORNBERGER: Okay.
13 MR. BUQO: You know, P-1, we found that the head 14 in the carbonate aquifer is higher than the volcanic O)
(,.
15 aquifer. We need to see does that continue down gradient of 16 the site.
17 DR. HORNBERGER: Exactly. Exactly.
18 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: How much effort is going to be 19 put in attempting to correlate your results with the results 20 of other drilling activities.
21 MR. BUQO: Well, there's going to be a lot put 22 into it. That is a primary focus.
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
24 MR. BUQO: We feel that if the geophysical data, l 25 the geochemistry data, the temperature data, and the I
^
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46 l 1 straight geology data all matches together, then you have
( 2 got a much better picture and our model of what is happening 3 out there is going to be that much better.
4 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: So you are going to use the 5 total information to do whatever mapping or whatever --
6 MR. BUQO: Well, the -- yes. Yes, we are looking 7 more in terms of the subsurface.
8 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. l 9 MR. BUQO: The surfacial mapping has largely been 10 done, but Nye County is working with GS now to define a
- 11. program for the next few years filling in some of those 12 mapping gaps in the Amargosa Valley area. l 13 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. Any other questions?
14 That's very good. Yes? Yes.
() 15 DR .. CAMPBELL: There was a J.ot talked about i
16 yesterday about QA. Will the sample collection procedures l
17 all follow the QA procedures in place such that a researcher !
18 who comes in to do sorption studies later, there isn't an I l \
19 issue about QA of the sample?
20 MR. BUQO: Absolutely. We are not going to do 21 them continually, but if we come up with a bunch of samples 22 that don't meet the QA standards, because then we haven't 23 done our job. And we feel that is important, because we 24 don't have all the answers. Somebody may come up with an l
25 idea a couple of years down the road and we want to have
\
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47 1 good, solid, defensible samples for them to go in and work
() 2 3
with.
DR. HORNBERGER: I assume you are -- this is all 4 going to be fed in and you are going to collaborate with l 5 people doing the regional groundwater modeling?
6 MR. BUQO: Yes. Our feeling is that we recognize 7 the limitations of the models, and the way we make better 8 models is to get better data. And it will be an iterative 9 process. We want to go in -- one of the key things is 10 defining the configuration of the paleozoic surface and the 11 volcanics. And we can go in and readjust all that 12 geophysics data once we get some control points. Right now 13 we have got three widely spaced control points that we are 14 going to add to that. Then we can go in and re-do that,
( .15 plug it back into the model and we will have a lot better 16 information for calibration.
17 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you very much. I 1
18 Dr. Montazer will talk to us new, and you will, as 19 before, announce your full name and affiliation, et cetera.
20 DR. MONTAZER: Good morning, my name is Parviz 21- Montazer. It is right on the screen. It is a pleasure to 22 present this material to the committee again. We began, I 23 guess, a couple of years ago, doing some investigation on 24 the alternative repository design and we presented some 25 preliminary ideas, and I just want to give you some progress i
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48 1 reports as to what we have done.
~'\ 2 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Excuse me a minute. Are we
'(-sl L
3 losing him? Okay. I wonder if somebody could help you with 4 your viewgraphs and then you could stay with the microphone.
5 SPEAKER: It is portable, so he can just hold it.
6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Okay. All right. Thank you.
7 DR. MONTAZER: Does that help? Okay. Do I need l 8 to restart? Okay. I haven't said much, so I -- but, l
9 anyway, --
10 [ Laughter.)
11 DR. MONTAZER: Let's see, if this can be -- maybe 12 we can close some of those windows back there so you can 13 see.
14 By the way, this is just a refresher on what the
() 15 Yucca Mountain map looks like. The tunnel is shown with 16 this -- with this kind of red-pink color. We don't have it 17 in this map the, but the ECRB has gone -- basically all the 18 way to go west almost to its end point in Solitary Canyon.
19 Why are interested in the instrumentation, in the 20 ESF or the ECRB? This -- in this instance, well, basically, 21 we want to -- our concern was to see how moisture and heat 22 is removed from the rock. And we wanted to see how the 23 ventilation effects can be used to estimate large scale 24 properties. .Mainly, we have -- what we have been successful 25 is estimating some thermal conductivities which turns out to e ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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49 1 be the same as the small scale thermal conductivities,
(~)
't,/
2 within the same order of magnitude.
3 This third bullet is the -- basically, what I am 4 going to be focusing today is to evaluate the potential 5 alternative repository designs. And for us, right now, we 6 are considering the open repository and the natural 7 ventilation -- ventilating conditions.
8 And we also wanted to get data that we could kind 9 of look at with our limited resources, how good these models 10 are and point out some of the parameters that really are 11 really hard to get.
12 This is kind of a shot of the TBM, the back of the 13 TBM while it was in operation. Now it is parked outside of 14 the tunnel. We had three different temperature, pressure A
(),
15 and humidity probes that were spaced in different places and 16 we continually monitored that for almost two years till the ,
l 17 tunnel broke through. And then we started putting some --
18 as you saw in the previous picture, there was a lot of 19 construction in the system, so it makes it very hard to 20 analyze the flow. So we came up with stations, or 21 stationary after the tunnel -- TBM was completed.
22 This picture is just in the ECRB and the 23 temperature and humidity probes and anemometer, we are using 24 the hot water anemometer, are at these three different 25 , locations. We want to look at the variation of the flow and
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l l
l 50 1 humidity and temperature in a cross-sectional view.
1
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2 This just gives you -- it is a busy slide, gives 3 you a view of generally what kind of data we have, data set l 4 we have. These are the locations of different times where 5 the TBM was, and we have a continuous, almost with no 6 interruption, data all the way through the end of the 7 tunnel. We are busily trying to analyze that data, it is a 8 tremendous amount of data, but we have been posting them out 9 on the Internet and anybody can, who is interested, can 10 access that and analyze it.
11 USGS came out on October '96 and they patched a 12 couple of stations at the end of the TBM. And we have 13 received some of their data. And also USGS had installed a 14 number of stationary thermocological instrument --
D
(,) 15 instrumentation along the tunnel and they are shown in these 16 kind of red-pinkish color. And we have also been l 17 instrumenting and I will follow in the ECRB for basically 18 those three different parameters.
19 This just shows the schematic. I am going to skip 20 some of the slides. This just shows the relative humidity 21 in the ESF. I will take a little bit -- little closer on I
, 22 this. Which, basically, in most cases during the l l l 23 operations, it has been about 60, 70 percent humidity.
24 Sometimes they -- in this, at this time, April '97, the 25 tunnel is really dry, and the only places that there were I'D ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l I
l 51 1 any moisture were towards the end at the PTN exposures. So
() 2 3
the trend in the humidity reflects what was really in the atmosphere. We were not picking up much moisture from the i 4 tunnel anymore. We did initially and we are following it in 5 our early instrumentation, but right now ESF is almost dry.
6 This just shows the temperature variations. I l! -
7 just wanted to point out just an average of temperatures.
8 It is about rock temperature, the tunnel temperature during l 9 the non-working operations, which is right in here. It is 10 about 25 degrees C down there. That is what I have used 11 right now for monitoring.
i 12 This is just to show some of the data, this is 13 temperature data from the ECRB. I am not going to dwell on 14 that, it just shows the three different probes responding j
() 15 differently with different temperature, mainly because of 16 the flow -- flow system. And the same thing for the
- 17. humidity, as long as there is flow, there is a humidity I 18 gradient in the cross-section, and that is what we are using 19 -- I am using to calculate some of my parameters. The eddy 20 diffusivity is what I am using for my simulations.
21 We have put TDRs, -- spectrometry in the rocks, we 22 tried that. The rock is too dry, we have not been 23 successful. We are waiting to see what USGS has been 24 installing. Heat dissipation probes and other instruments.
25 We are anxiously waiting to see their data. We don't know i
L lh
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52 1 how that works.
() 2 3
This is just the air velocity and, again, this is in the ECRB. We can see the thermal ventilation, about one 4 meter per second, one to one-and-a-half meter per second at 5 the relative higher velocity areas.
6 On the ESF one, I just wanted to point out one 7 interesting thing that we observed during -- this was in 8 November '97. We observed some of these peaks and they 9 happened 8:00 or 9:00 o' clock in the morning, and we were 10 wondering what is going on with these peaks. And when we --
11 I asked around, realized that that is the morning they 12 spray. They spray the tunnel for dust and we picked them 13 up, they were upwind from us, and we picked them up with the 14 instrumentation. So this -- that is going to help me, I
) 15 haven't done the analysis side, that is going to help me get 16 some of the parameters that I need for the model as far as '
17 the open air part is concerned.
18 I will just highlight some of the ideas that we 19 have as far as the advantages and concerns related to the 20 naturally ventilated repository. The repository, this is 21 basically, the proposal is to leave the repository open, to e 22 not backfill and leave the canisters exposed to the air.
23 The advantages, of course, is you have a tremendous 24 potential for heat loss that is going to be carried away by 25 the air flow.
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53 1 And as this air flows through the system, as we I'd 2 have observed, it picks up the moisture from the rocks as O
3 soon as it comes in contact with the rocks. If there is 4 going to be any infiltration, any recharge that may enter 5 into the repository, that air is going to pick that moisture 6 up and get it out. And at the same time, because the 7 repositive horizon is fractured, there is going to be a 8 great deal of flow coming in from the rock itself.
9 And this air that is coming -- kind of coming in, 10 it is going to be almost saturated. It will be at least 95 11 percent humidity. So we are bringing a lot of moisture into 12 this air current and taking it out into the -- in the 13 outside. So the rock itself, in general, is going to be 14 drying a lot -- actually a lot faster than the matrix
() 15 permeability allows it because of the contribution from the 16 open patches system.
17 Because of the neat reduction, there is going to 18 be a potential for increasing the concentration of the --
19 basically, the packing, put the waste closer because we are 20 not concerned with the heat problem. Heat is, right now, is 21 a major problem as far as I am concerned, both as far as the 22 geochemical consequences and mechanical consequences, and 23 hydrologic consequences. In the unsaturated zone it is 24 going to create a very complicated system that it is hard to 25 predict. So if we reduce that factor out and put a control O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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54 1 on it, it is going to increase our certainly as far as what
() 2 3
is going to happen.
Of course, there are concerns as to what -- how 4 the long-term stability can be open, keep this repository 5 for 10,000~ years. What is going to be the human intrusion 6 and bio-intrusion? Trees growing in, or animals getting in.
7 Those are some of the engineering things that really have to 8 be studied, and I am not the one to answer those questions.
9 There is a concern about atmospheric emissions as far as if 10 there are any gases that are released from the canister, 11 they will be right outside almost instantly.
12 So we did some -- we have done some simulation to
'13 look at the potential impacts. Initially, I did -- I just 14 did an experiment. I have presented some of that results.
D)
(, 15 I put the canisters in the ESF, heated it up and see what 16 happened. And then I constructed the small part of the 17 repository. Actually, what I am going to be presenting, 18 what I have done so far is only half of this. We only 19 really about 48,000 meters of tunnel if we just put these 20 canisters back to back, I mean end-to-end, it is going to 21 require about 48,000 meters length of tunnel.
22 And so there is going to be -- there is in the 23 full scale model, there are 60 -- 60 tunnels that go in this 24 direction, each one about 800 meters long, and I don't know 25 that jibes with the current design, how the current design O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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55 1 is, but there is -- there are ways to increase or reduce the 2 area.
(^}
N.
But this area that I am considering is about at least 3 one-fourth, if not more -- if not smaller than what the 4 current design required.
5 And this is just the experimental one that I made 6 when I had the canisters in the tunnel. This shows the 7 saturation. When we get into the red area, we are basically 8 to the background 80 percent saturation. When we get closer l
9 to the tunnel, in this area, we are basically about 20 l 10 percent. So reduce the saturation to 20 percent.
11 I would like to mention that I have used a 12 modified version of the UZ model and one of the things that 13 I have had to do, I have to convert that to equivalent 14 porous media. What I received from LPL is a dual porosity
,m
() 15 and I took the fractures and I changed the property of the 16 matrix, because the way it is, the UZ model is set up with '
17 dual porosity, basically, the fractures and matrix separate.
18 It takes an enormous amount of computational time, 19 especially that they did not provide me with the EOS-9, 20 which is an analytical solution to the matrix part, and I 21 have to numerically solve the matrix and the fractures. I 22 am running this on Alpha, and even on Cray, it is going to 23 take days for simulation, so I just -- I have ignored that 24 -- I haven't ignored it, but I have Iut -- set that aside 1
25 and converted everything to the equivalent porous media just l l
l
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56 1 for efficiency purposes.
2
( Some day somebody has to go -- has to do that 3 discrete or dual porosity to get the results, and I may do 4 some experiments on a smaller scale to see the outcome.
5 This is just the results of the -- for the 6 experimental phase. In this case I have a 19 degrees, you I 7 will see, that has gone before. Some of it we have. And 8 over 1,000 years, 10,000 years, you can see the temperature.
9 And this is the temperature in the center of the tunnel,-
10 right next to the canister. This is how the temperature l
'11 drops down. Of course, about this time, we -- the heat j 12 generation from the waste is almost -- is minimal. So the I 13 main concern is this part. And I can see that the -- even 14 the canister, 30 degrees C, or even 45 degrees C, is not an
( 15 unbearable temperature. And the rock, of course, the rock 16 doesn't even -- doesn't even -- actually, we have cooling 17 mainly because of the evaporation. There is cooling going 18 on during the ventilation.
19 Now, when I have put the repository in, this is 20 the -- this is half of -- this will, basically, this is 21 equivalent to the half of the entire waste that is planned 22 to be put down there. It will basically dry out, the whole 23 entire area in between these canisters, to about 30 percent.
24 An average saturation of 30 percent and, of course, we get 25 to the background level and we have -- this is, Solitary O
\ss/
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57 1 Canyon is back in here, it is a boundary condition. And a
() 2 3
lot of -- I made a lot of simplifications to get to this, and I am not proposing that this is the final results.
4 Actually, this is hot off the press as of yesterday, a half 5 hour5.787037e-5 days <br />0.00139 hours <br />8.267196e-6 weeks <br />1.9025e-6 months <br /> before I left, so I am not even sure if the numbers are 6 any good, but they make sense.
7 The idea is -- conceptually, it makes sense. And 8 what this basically says, the saturation shows, you are 9 creating a gradient from the ambient rock toward the 10 repository. Everywhere you are going to have -- and it 11 happens, it also has in the vertical direction, you will 12 have a gradient towards and not -- in this case, I am 13 running, I believe at four millimeters a year infiltration 14 from the top. The infiltration doesn't even -- doesn't even (D
( ,) 15 bother this. Four millimeters is nothing. And I haven't 16 tried higher infiltration.
17 Basically, you eliminate, if you can maintain and 18 guarantee this condition, you eliminate any potential for 19 release of the radionuclides from the repository. Even if 20 there is going to be interruptions in the flow. Some people 21 have asked me, well, what if we lose -- or the ventilation, 22 natural ventilation is lost for three months? This gradient 23 is going to guarantee that nothing is going to happen until 24 the ventilation is back on order, meaning the natural 25 ventilation.
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58 1 We have cycles, seasonal changes, that, especially
{} 2 when the temperature drops, may reverse the circulation of 3 the natural 'ntilation. It is not a negative thing, it is 4 just something that we have to try to figure out what the 5 impacts are going to be when we have these reversals. And I }
6 don't think it is going to be any major thing.
7 Some of those details are things that I haven't 8 worked out. The temperature in this case, this is just i 9 across -- at one of the rifts. It is higher in this case, 10- where I have got another load. We have 50 degrees C, but
.11 this is at the canister. It drops'down. But in the rock 12 which is -- yeah, this is a three-meter tunnel, a 13 three-meter radius tunnel, at this point the temperatures
)
14 are -- it rises up a little bit to 20, 28, 29 degrees, but- l
() 15- falls back. In this case I am using 25 degrees as an 16 initial condition of the rock temperature.
17 DR. MONTAZER: Good morning. My name is Parviz 18 Montazer. I just want to revisit these -- we have already 19 talked about those first issues.
20 I would like to talk about the reduced 21 uncertainty.
22 Performance of the current design is going to be I 23 hard to verify because we can design a lot of things but 24 it's.only the past 100 years. The experience that we have l i
25 is only in the past 200 years with the high temperature, l
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59
'l with the corrosion, with the steel, the stainless steel. I
() 2 l3 don't care what kind of stainless.you use -- the experience is not more than 100 years on the corrosion and on the 4 stability.
5 On the normal steel we have at least 3000 and in e 6 the ambient temperature you may have 3000 years of 7 records -- go look at the Egyptians and all the historical 8 artifacts.
9 We can understand the corrosion of that material, 10 therefore our certainty is going to be increased because of 11 our past experiences with the materials.
12 The long time effect of heat and humidity on the ;
L13 canisters -- we are seeing some of it and we really don't 14 have a lot of' certainty so if we take that out of-the
() 15 equation it increases our certainty.
1 16 One of the things actually that is beneficial to '
17 not line these rocks we want the mountain to breathe so we 18 want as much air to come to this system as possible to 19 remove the moisture and to basically communicate with the 20 main drift to take heat out of the system.
21 One of the most important things is the 22 geochemical uncertainty is going to be taken away. There is I 23 of course one concern we have. There's going to be some 24 geochemical changes under low temperature that is going to
~
25 be occurring -- that is the calcification of the fractures, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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60 1 basically the water that is going to be coming towards the
() ~2 3
repository is going to deposit the calcites and fill the fractures. How fast and to what extent it is going to do, 4 we are doing some investigation, basically reviewing how 5 fast we can fill these fractures.
6 It is not going to be totally detrimental but it 7 will change the results of the model to some extent. To y 8 what extent it is going to change it, I don't know because I l
I' 9 will be going from an alluvial force media or even if you do 10 the dual porosity we are going to a matrix-driven system and 11 the fractures are sealed. The air communication is going to
- 12 be reduced with the system, so those are some of the things 1
L 13 that somebody has to look at and we're thinking about it.
14 We just don't have all the resources to look at all the A
1
( ,) 15 aspects, the concerns.
i 16 They can be engineered and again somebody has to 17 look at those possible options. I think this alternative 18 creates -- has so much, at least it makes so much common 19 sense that we have to look at these possibilities seriously 20 to see really if it has a viability as far as an 21 alternative.
1 22 This one is kind of -- it's always been my opinion l 23 about human intrusion you cannot keep an intelligent human 24 being out of there. I don't care what you dc. An 25 intelligent human being at the level where we are, if there i
l'k/
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L 61 1 was something we would have been in there, but we also know 2 how to protect ourselves.
(A) 3 It's very easy to prevent the non-intelligent 4 intruder -- it's just like preventing animals out of getting 5 to someplace. It's relatively easy.
'6 The atmospheric conditions -- the inventory of 1
7 gases is low from what I see and there's tremendous '
8 dilution. If you would release all the gases, this is my 9 perception, out of these canisters, in one day by the time 10 they get out in the tunnel it would be low background or to 11 the background level. Now I haven't done my calculation but 12 that is from what I remember. It's not an issue.
13 The issue is the particulates. particulates come 14 out. If you have a canister broken and material is out in O( ,f 15 the tunnel and wind picks it up, it's flowing in, and brings 16 it out, that is a concern but that can be engineered, and 17 there are passive trap systems that all you have to do is 18 increase the diameter of the tunnel and create depositories 19 or shelves and the particulates will settle and they would i
20 never get out. It's kind of a natural automatic filter.
21 That can be designed. All you have to do is calculate your 22 extreme velocities. l 23 In conclusion, basically you have -- the bottom 24 line is that I think you need to, we need to think about, 25 DOE needs to think about -- beyond our resources, scope and l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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'/ Court Reporters l 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
62 l-I 1 time -- setting up an experiment in the tunnel. I think l
2 they have the facility and everything. We need a small l [V[h l
3 shaft someplace, to install a shaft someplace. We've got 4 the heater. I don't know how long they want to keep that 1
5 heater. A heater for this type of test is not going to be !
6 as complicated and expensive as the one they already have, 7 so it can be actually -- the heater for this test could be 8 just a bunch of lamps, just a bunch of floodlamps, just to 1 l
9 create, I don't know, 8000 watts and you have got an l 10 experiment going. All we need is a shaft, some short shaft
! 11 that we can experiment on this, and monitor the rock, I 12 moisture and temperature for a period of a year to see
]
13 really what we are seeing or modelling makes sense -- so 14 with that, thank you.
() 15 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you. )
16 MR. MURPHY: If I might, Mr. Chairman, I am Mal 17 Murphy again -- licensing advisor for Nye County. It just 18 occurred to me that there is something that we forgot to 19 mention in the prepared program and that is you and/or your 20 staff should recently have received a letter from Nye County 21 announcing a workshop on the naturally ventilated repository 22 for Las Vegas on December 1st and 2nd which we are holding 23 in cooperation with DOE and we certainly -- that workshop is j i
24 intended to discuss and cover the various advantages and 25 disadvantages and concerns that Dr. Monta:er just raised, so !
l l
l !
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Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
63 1 we want to encourage you and your staff if it.is at all
() 3 possible to attend that workshop.
It is going to be held the Quality Inn -- what is 4 the name of that Quality Inn there? Emerald Island or L
l 5 something like that -- Quality Inn in Las Vegas on December i i
l 6 1st and'the morning of December 2nd~and we are currently in I j
l f 7 the process of inviting presenters and speakers.
l 8 DOE has.given us some names. Dr. Montazer t
9 obviously will be speaking and others for Nye County but it
! 10 is a workshop that we think is going to be very important 11 and we will begin the process of looking at these technical 12 concerns and questions that adhere in this concept.
13 Another thing I guess we still to emphasize is l
14 that we are not -- Nye County is not proposing this as a way
() 15 to get the repository licensed. What we are saying in 16 this -- in Parviz Montazer's presentation is that if -- we 17 are still neutral. Nye County is substance neutral on Yucca
! 18 Mountain. We have been consistently and we are going to i 19 remain substance neutral for the foreseeable future.
20 All we are saying is if Yucca Mountain is going to 21 become the nation's only nuclear waste repository, it needs 22 to be as absolutely safe as humanly possible and we think 23 this is a better way to make the repository safe than any 24 alternative design that we have yet seen presented by DOE l 25 and so we think this design needs to be examined very
?
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1- - _, , -
64 1 thoroughly and in tremendous -- and in complete depth.
() 2 If it is safer than any other alternative that DOE 3 and the MNO could present, than we would be pushing this 7 kind of design, this concept in licensing, but don't -
5 misunderstand us to be saying that we are sponsoring a 6 repository because of this natural ventilation design. Our 7 only motivation is to say it's tot to be as safe as humans 8 can make it and this is something that we need to look at
, 9 carefully. Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you.
11 DR. MONTAZER: Thank you for the qualification.
12 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: If you could take what you have 13 presented and what you have learned and identify two or 14 three things that you consider the most important to be
() 15 confident -- you used the word " confidence" -- that the 16 ventilated concept would be a safe concept, what would they 17 be and how long would it take?
18 DR. MONTAZER: I'm sorry, the --
19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: What are the two or three 20 activities --
21 DR. MONTAZER: Activities.
22 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: -- that if you had whatever n 23 budget you needed and time you needed that you could have 24 them perform, measurements, experiments or whatever where 25 the result would be in your opinion confidence in the l
2
( ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
65 1 ventilated concept. What would those activities be?
l 2 DR.-MONTAZER: I proposed actually to NWTRD that.
A/
.3 UCRB -- it would.make sense to raise a shaft, a short shaft-4 that will not necessarily come out of the' surface. I know ;
5 the. Commission is against that. It will come out of the l 6 solitary canyon. Basically you dog-leg -- a short, it may
~7 be'only 120 feet long. It's very easy to drill shafts like a
8 that and it doesn't have to be very big, 10 feet diameter 9 ~ will suffice and put a heater right near the end of that --
10 right in the middle of the tunnel at the end in the 17 foot 1
3 11 diameter UCRB and instrumental rods for moisture and l 4
12 temperature conditions and attempt to monitor the 13 temperature and flow in the system and see what it's doing
- 14 as far as how much ventilation can you create given a l
() 15 certain amount of heat and also monitor the outside,'you 16 b". ,w . AJ the air goes out of the system you want to monitor 17 it. You may want to look at the transport and those kind of 18 functions and the idea of the particulate entrapment and l l
19 maybe you want to experiment, sometime like that, to figure i 1
. 20 out if that really works.
21 Those are the things I think it's going to be 22 worthwhile and it is not going to be very expensive to do, 23 compared to what we have spent on the program.
24 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: And how long would it take?
25 DR. MONTAZER: I would say the construction part I O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
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66 l l
1 can't estimate, but'to run the experiment I would say we'd
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105 l i
)
1 That was the little dude the first time. I think probably l 2 those children that his wife is holding onto maybe should be l 3 that standard. And I can't tell from this view if the wife 1
4 is pregnant, but it could be that that little person should !
l
- 5 be where the standard looks. '
6 And certainly NRC in its job to protect health and 7 safety would want to be thinking in those terms. So I would 8 just wind up by saying we've been told for years and years l l
9 and years that if we had real problems that we shouldn't be '
l 10 disruptive or we shouldn't take a lot of time in DOE I 11 meetings because actually the NRC was our surrogate, and 12 that our real defense would come with NRC.
13 And I want to make sure that that's true because l 14 it does now seem that NRC is our 'ast line of defense. So
() 15 there were a few of us that just recently attended a 16 conference in Sweden, and it was about the setting up of 17 standards for a high level waste repository. And they're 18 doing the right thing. They're actually setting the 19 standard before they have a spot which would seem to be a 20 proper order.
21 But the standard that they're coming out with 22 that's now been propoced is essentially zero release at the 23 door for all time, and the site will have to be voluntary.
24 And it would seem to me that's a tremendous departure from 25 what we're seeing here. And they do have public l
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l Court Reporters l 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036
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106 1 participation.
[~ 2 V) Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you very much. And we 4 will talk some more. Bill Vasconi?
5 MR. VASCONI: That's not Irish.
6 (Laughter.]
7 MR. VASCONI: I'm Bill Vasconi. I'm a 8 construction worker, electrician by trade, union. I do 9 realize a lot of people's wages are predicated by what union 10 collective bargaining does.
11 The Nevada test site -- I started there in 1964 as 12 a radiological technician and monitor. I worked on several 13 events over those four years. I decided I didn't like it 14 any more. Everything out there either had a sticker on it,
( 15 or it crawled on the ground.
11 6 So I got into construction, ended bacP at the test 17 site. The last ten years I was there as a general foreman, 18 and my basic job was diagnostics -- from the diagnostic 19 facilities to your coaxial, your fiber optic, et cetera, 20 utility vice, lowering it down hole either by lowering the 21 cable off carts or on reel to reels.
22- Yes, I have a lot of my personal time is involved 23' in that Nevada test site, probably some 16 years. I realize 24 the potential Nevada test site. I've been part of an 25 employee transition committee where in 1989 we've seen l
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Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
l 107 1 11,200 people. Our first shot was able in 1951. Our last
[s 2 shot was divider September 22nd of 1992.
3 We seen that 11,200 people go down to a number of 4 bacically around 2,000 or 2,200. A worse thing couldn't 5 have happened at a better time to those construction workers 6 that are living in Las Vegas, Nevada. We had a great' boom 7 down there. Your rural communities, your affected counties 8 a lot of it was devastating.
l 9 When you think of Nevada test site, you've got to l
! 10 be concerned with those rural counties. I compliment my f 11 county for the work they're doing. Our state's got $72 l 12 million. I think Nye County's doing a hell of a lot more i
13 with a million and a half. We should take that for an 14 example.
O
( ,/ 15 If'you've got a message to take back to NRC which 16 I understand you advise and report to, let them know that 17 monies are well spent in your affected counties for L
i 18 oversight. Nye County's a prime example.
I 19 The monies you're giving the State of Nevada for 20 the affected counties, I think the terminology is ludicrous.
21 Steve Wind can build a Bellagio $1.6 million -- that's $1.6
- 22. million. That's for people to go gamble.
23 You know, Las Vegas is a great place. They want 24 the textiles from the east, the steel from Gary, Indiana or 25 Japan, the cars from Detroit. They want your money. They t I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C 20036 (202) 842-0034
108 1 want all of it. They want all of it upfront.
2 But when you say help the nation out with nuclear 3 waste, they don't want no parts of it. Don't they 4 understand that most of that stuff or a lot of that stuff or 5 a percentage of that stuff is manufactured with nuclear 6 power?
7 I do too see it as a national issue. Being here 8 for some 35 years, I feel real attached to Nevada. Well, I 9 am from Pennsylvania, Steve. I was born and raised here.
10 But I'm also an American that does see it as a national 11 issue.
12 People say leave it where it's at, there's no 13 problem. Well, I assume the number's still about 107 14 nuclear power houses that's storing nuclear waste along
() 15 water, along rivers. I see that as a problem. I see it as 16 a beneficial factor if we can consolidate it, get it in one t
17 spot.
18 You know, a lot of things have happened here at 19 Yucca Mountain. You know, if there's a hard pressed problem 20 with the public getting involved because you can put a 21 poster up some place. You've got to go talk to those folks 22 and invite them. Go through that community and get with the 22 organizations. Invite them to come down here and have a 24 little something to say.
25 I'm glad to see you folks sitting here today O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034 l _ _ _ _ _ _ _
109 1 rather than the. Technical Review Committee. They showed up
(' 2 here a while back, and there was twice-as many of them, and 3 they were all wearing suits -- the most suits we've ever 4 seen in Amargosa County. I guess you folks are wearing 5 Levis, and I think we can talk.
6 [ Laughter.]
7 MR. VASCONI: You know, I don't care about a lot 8 of the technical talk either because I.am a construction 9 worker. So I don't give a hoot about what all you're 10 saying. But when some of these folks get up to speak, are 11 you listening.
12 You know, God gave us two ears and one mouth. But 13 I think his full intention was for us to listen twice as 14 hard as we talk. Sometimes that doesn't happen. The
() 15 political atmosphere in the State of Nevada -- you all 16 realize the political status of the State of Nevada.
17 Perhaps that's why the viability assessment won't be out til 18 mid-November.
19 Perhaps that's why some of the topics were 20 curtailed here in the meeting. Perhaps. We'll get that 21 election out of the way, and we'll get on with things. I do 22 know now that the Nevada test site, four and a half decades 23 of nuclear expertise, we have a lot of individuals in these 24 rural communities, indeed in the State of Nevada that wants 25 to maximize the benefits to be realized by that I~
\D )
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
l 110 l
i 1 technological scientific expertise that was developed at the '
~
( \
s- /
2 Nevada test site over four and a half decades.
l l 3 Yucca Mountain, a lot of us see it as a national ;
l '
4 issue. But you're saying we're not heard. I disagree. You 5 know, Lake Barrett at his international conference said I I
6 things that Nye County has said, that other organizations l 1
7 have, God willing, myself as an individual. l i 8 When you first said Yucca Mountain, using it to I
i
! 9 dig a hole up there, put the nuclear waste in it, walk away l
10 and leave it, put the vegetation back, put a stone on top of 11 it in 40 different languages saying what was buried 12 underneath it. No, no, that don't work.
13 We want it ventilated. We want it retrievable.
l
, 14 You're building a facility with today's technology, with
(~'g l
- i. ,) 15 today's expertise, with today's metals. Don't forget, 16 although we've come a long way in the last 100 years, let's 17 take 300 years -- God given our educational system, in the 18 next 300 years, might be able to do a little better job of 19 securing, regulating nuclear waste.
20 I think we ought to give our educational system a 21 chance. Until then, we do all we can to satisfy the 22 public's health and safety. We do all we czm on 23 transportation, and a lot of these folks are right ca 24 transportation.
25 If you think the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is
\ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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's- l Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034 1
111 1 going to transport nuclear waste to the greater metropolitan !
2 area of Las Vegas or that portion of Clark County, it's not 3 going to work. You're going to have enough crazies wanting 4 to get on that railroad track or on that highway to show you 5 it won't work.
6 Now there's a lot of considerations given for i
7 railroad systems. You betcha. You leave Carlin, you go 8 down through the center -- the geographical center of the !
i 9 State of Nevada. There's no railroad. There's no major j l
10 highway. !
l 11 But we're the second largest producer of gold and 12 silver in the world. If Nevada was a country, we'd be the 13 second largest producer of gold. You put a railroad system 14 down through the center, the geographical center of the 15 State of Nevada, you've satisfied a lot of the public, a lot 16 of the identities.
17 And when you get done with the nuclear waste, we i
18 still have issues in development based on a railroad system 19 through the geographical center of the State of Nevada. Now 20 I want to cover one or two more things, then I'll get down l 21 out of here.
22 But you know Las Vegas -- 50 percent of the people 1 23 in Las Vegas have been there less than ten years. Less than I i
24 ten years. You ask them on a piece of paper what's their 25 major concerns at this point time. You do a survey through l
rm
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- Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 i Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034 .
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112 1 the review journal or the university. We're worried about 2 crime. He're real worried about highways. We're worried
[
3 about schools. We're worried about taxes.
4' Fifty percent of those people lived there less
- 5. than ten years. A good many of them don't know what Nevada 6 test site means. They don't know what Yucca Mountain is.
7 They do think if it's coming here, there's an equity issue 8 and you owe the State of Nevada. There's some equity issues 9 to be satisfied.
10 Do you know we have a murder in Las Vegas every 11 two days? We have a rape every nine hours? We have a car 12 stolen every 40 minutes. That don't sound like a very safe 13 place to me.
14 We can make Yucca Mountain work for this nation.
() 15 You've got 170 nuclear power houses. You've got 114 server 16 ships with.the Navy or submarines -- 14 server ships, 61 17 university reactors, 18 Yeah, it's time to consolidate that waste and get 19 it in one spot. This could be a stewardship, a future.
20 Lots of people say 10,000 years. Stop at the library and 21 pick up something on when's the last ice age we had.
22 They said there's been 34 identified ice ages.
23 They happen every 10 or 12 years. Hell, you better start I 24 worrying about that ice age in New York and New Jersey, et 25 cetera.
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113 1 Okay, I know my time's just about up, ma'am. And
/~ \ 2 _I think I'vr just about covered all of it except for the 300 1
L) 3 year item. One more time, the 300 year item. Maybe give 4 you an example. I 5 You're sitting in Nevada, the seventh largest 6 state, 14 people per square mile. California, third largest 7 state, 200 people per square mile. Yeah, a portion of 8 Nevada we'll have to sacrifice. It's 110,000 square miles.
9 We're about the same size as Italy. It's 116,000 square l 10 miles.
I 11 Another example, you could put nine of the 13 I 12 original colonies for states inside the State of Nevada.
13 Did you know that you could put seven Denmarks, three i 14 Austrias inside the State of Nevada. How about 110 election b
g ,/ 15 booths inside the State of Nevada.
16 Nevada is bigger than most of your countries. One 17 other example and I'll get off of it, you take the United 18 Kingdom whom we have shots with at the Nevada test site, 24 19 of them. As a matter of fact, we had 904 detonations at the 20 Nevada test site. One hundred of them were atmospherics.
21 The other ones were buried waste. Those are the water 22 acquifers I worry about.
23 But the State of Nevada -- you can take England, 24 Wales, Scotland and Ireland, and they'll all fit in the 25 State of Nevada. So I give to you this day the fact that f~h
\ s#
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Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
114 1 Nevada -- yes, Nevada will have to sacrifice. But so hasn't I
V)' 2 our other states?
3 From 1776 to 1864 and Nevada's motto is battle for 4 all for our country. It sounds more like they're all for 5 themselves. But the point is those 88 years before Nevada 6 became a state, didn't the Pennsylvanians and New Yorks and 7 New Jerseys and Virginians, didn't they sacrifice a measure 8 of men through many wars, not only of independence by civil 9 -- the Spanish American, World War I, World War II.
10 Eighty-eight years of sacrifice before they became 11 a state. No, they owe us, the rest of the country, nothing.
12 But I do know this. Their first governor of the State of 13 Nevada is from Boston, Massachusetts. The first two 14 senators they had was from New York State. It's all
) 15 history.
16 Anza built San Francisco. Nevada's a state.
17 We're an independent bunch, but we'll listen. We hope you 18 folks will listen, too. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you.
20 MR. VASCONI: Oh, yes, interests -- I'm on the 1 21 NTST Development Corporation for issues in development of '
22 the Nevada Test Site. I'm with the AFL-CIO for issues in 23 development of the Nevada test site, and I'm not a study 24 committee for issues and development of Nevada test site.
25 There's a lot of folks out there, construction workers just
[D, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
\/ Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034
115 l 1 like me. They will participate if you get out there and
[ T V
2 walk the streets and get those folks to these meetings.
3 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you. Ralph McCracken.
4 MR. MCCRACKEN: Good morning. It's most of the 5 afternoon. I understand that.
6 You've had three very different personalities so 7 far at different levels of speaking skills, and you're being.
8 presented with a fourth one. One comparison that the 1 9 previous speaker forgot or overlooked or whatever is that 10 Nye County is one of the two largest counties in all 50 11 states. I didn't come here to tell you that, but I find 12 that interesting as well.
13 My name is Ralph McCracken. I'm a local farmer.
14 I didn't come out here to farm, but it worked out to where I I
) 15 am farming. Water is very important to me, my farm and my 16 fellow farmers.
17 Look around here. You guys ought to be 18 embarrassed that you don't have some public here today other 19 than the five, six, maybe ten people. Part of the reason, I l 20 feel, is that a man named Mr. Major -- I don't know what his 21 first name is, but he was involved in getting your meeting 22 set up here today. And I know that he was contacted by a 23 member of the press regarding whether or if this meeting was 24 going to happen or not, and he was asked to keep it quiet 25 until he was able to finalize what data it was and what was I
l l
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116 l
1 happening. '
() 2 3.
I'know darned well that if notice of this meeting was_given to our town office at the same time that the 4 reservations were made here,-you'd have more people here.
5 We have a' nuclear minor league oversight committee as part L
6 of our town advisory board form of government. We also have
( 7 a very good telephone network out here -- telephone network 8 amongst-the residents. Enough on that.
9 I'am one of the impacted population. And while I 10 may have another 30 years max left, possibly 40, the crop 11 that I'm growing and plan on expanding, pistachios -- I have 12 ten acres now, that's a 100-year crop. There's four 13 ' producers in the valley. There's other people looking at
-14 how we're doing to see if they want to move in that 15 direction or not.
16 The overworked word called environment, but the 17 environment out here is very similar to parts of the Middle 18 East, and that's why the pistachio is doing very well out 19 here. The neighbor down at the end of the road has got 30 20 acres of pistachios, and he's been harvesting the last two 21 years. My nuts are to the point that last year it wasn't 22 worth going through the exercise of trying to harvest. But 23 this year, the trees are loaded, and I will be having a 24 harvest -- the first of perhaps 99 more years of harvesting.
25 In the past, I have made myself available to l
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l l
117 1 conduct tours of this valley for interested groups like
()
\~/
2 yourselves, and I still stand available to do that again. I 3 know the membership of your committee has changed. People 4 who've been on the tour are welcome to do it again. All you 5 have to do is get ahold of us, and I'm not the only one in 6 the valley that will show you where and how people are out 7 here.
l l
8 It is difficult when you just drive a couple roads 9 out her- say, yes, there are people here or there are not i
10 people he_e. Originally when Yucca Mountain got started, we l l
11 were characterized as an unpopulated area. Well, that was a 12 number of years ago.
13 You've heard of the growth in Las Vegas. A lot of 1
14 that growth is spilling over into Piroque. The people that l (Oj 15 were in Piroque, some of those people are moving out here to 16 get away from the development and growth that's there.
17 It is domino effect. It is happening out here.
18 People are moving this way. Years ago, before the growth in 19 Las Vegas, farming out here for a number of yearc was dicey 20 at best and perhaps more effectively not done. The growth 21 has changed. The population of the people that have horses 22 have changed, and growth alfalfa is a very profitable 23 operation out here now.
24 With the advent of the population growth and 25 casino growth in Las Vegas, vegetable farming is another l
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1 118 1 vital operation out here. Because in the past when we had
() 2 3
vegetables out here and wanted to get them to market, the brokers had Las Vegas locked up. You had to ship them to LA 4 and then from LA back to Las Vegas. Things have changed.
5 There are local vegetable brokers in Vegas now that are l 6 willing to take produce from here.
7 Got to touch on there are several paths for radio 8 nucleates if they get in the water here to get out very 9 quickly. It's the alfalfa. The alfalfa gets watered. It 10 goes several directions. It can go north towards Fallon 1
11 before it gets cubed and shipped to Japan. It gets fed to !
12 our cattle here in the dairy, and within a very few hours l
13 the milk winds up in the LA area for distribution.
14 We have a clay mine. When they finish processing I 15 (j the clay and get it the way they want it to be, it's very 16 powdery, poofy type stuff. You have to add water to it to 17 make it a consistency that's usually handled. And, of 18 course, whatever kind of food stuffs come out of here, they 19 go everywhere.
20 Let's see, did I get them all. If not, you got 21 the idea.
l 22 Yes, there is growth out here. If someone is
)
23 really interested in getting their fingers on the pulse of 24 growth out here, check the -- what's the official, we just 25 call it DWR -- Division of Water Resources Office for well
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6 _ _
119 i
i drilling permits.
/~'
' V) 2 Well drilling permits are a very good reflection 3 of land subdivision out here and the number of houses that 4 are going in. Every time you drill a domestic well, you've j 5 got to have a permit.
6 There is some discussions of whether che 7 technology corner is going to happen or not. The phone 8 company is betting it is. When they were putting up their 9 high speed line to run it up and down 95, they decided to l 10 not just run straight up and down 95, they put a jog in that 11 line. They turned left -- south at 373, ran down to Farm i 12 Road, across Farm Road and back out Valleyview. There is a 13 high speed data terminal in Amargosa. They're looking for 14 things to happen out here. Your impacted population's going f-~g i, j 15 to grow.
16 Let's see. A lot of this is, of course, the way I 17 see it. Water -- groundwater is pivotal for this. If you 18 don't have groundwater, you're not going to have anything 19 out here because it just doesn't rain enough. Yes, we've 20 had some forfeitures out here in terms of water rights and 21 I'm not going to go into that story.
22 But we know darned well that there is a major 23 water study coming for this valley because of the apparent l
24 growing cooperation amongst all of the agencies that are 25 involved here.
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120 1 And if that water study -- when the conclusion of
(
- 2 the water study is reached, the results are announced, I'm 3 betting -- and I'm not the only one that's betting -- that 4 there's going to be a lot more water in this valley that's L 5 available than is currently thought -- at least officially 6 thought.
l 7 And there will be a reason to change the status of 8 this valley from adjudicated basin back to an unadjudicated 9 basin. Now what that means is that right now they're 10 saying, hey, there's only so much water available; 11 therefore, we can have only so much consumption.
12 If the water that's available -- those numbers 13' change, then there's more room for more farming and more 14 industry out here. Land is reasonably priced, and you've O( ,f 15 got your -- you don't have the overwhelming burden of 16 regulations in this county like you do in Clark County which 17 is another reason for industry and farming to come out here.
18 Two previous state water engineers -- one was 19 Westergard, and other one is the head of the Division of 20 Water Resources now.
21 SPEAKER: Mike Turner.
22 MR. MCCRACKEN: Pardon me? No, no, his boss.
23 SPEAKER: Morris.
24 MR. MCCRACKEN: Morris, thank you. Morris. They 25 both have made similar rulings, one in Trump Valley, one in I-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD,
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i 1 l l 121 l
1 Diten County after a long series of forfeitures in both of i
(\_,1
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l
- 2 those valleys that allowed the folks that were still really '
l 3 interested to go back in and reapply for water rights and go 4 forward again.
5 The precedent is there. The possibility is here.
6 And I really think when the volume of water available in l
7 this valley gets pretty well defined to where everybody's 8 satisfied with it, we'll see something like that happen.
l 9 And that will mean more people, more use here. l 1
10 Therefore, more importance for you guys to pay l
11 attention to the groundwater issues here. So that's -- I 12 kind of had myself my points here, and I covered most of the I 13 points. I appreciate your time. I really feel that had 14 your meeting been more locally announced, you would have had I f'
( )j 15 more people here.
16 I do appreciate your at least holding a meeting 17- out here. That's a start in the right direction. I hope 18 for all concerned, I give back to you, Mr. Chairman. I 19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you. Thank you very 20 much.
21 MS, DEVLIN: John, can I say something because I 22 made a mistake in my thing, and I have to apologize.
23 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Sure.
24 MS. DEVLIN: Okay. Hi, this is Sally Devlin 25 again. I made a mistake. It's not the first time or the i
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122 l l
1 last time, but I do apologize when I said that Les and ID 2 Rachel were under federal indictment. That was wrong.
'%,/ 1 3 They're under all kinds of local stuff, but not federal. So l l
4 I do apologize to you, and I don't want to be sued for 5 slander. Thank you.
6 [ Laughter.]
7 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Well, let's see. Maybe I could 8 -- I'm tired of having my back to you, and I'm not a hog for j 9 a microphone. But it might be a better way for some i 10 discussion.
11 I think it's all been said that what's important 12 is not the words of what you hear, but what you retain, and 13 then what you do with what you retain. And I think we've 14 heard a lot of very valuable comments and information. And O
i,s-) 15 I just want to sort of identify a few of those that came ,
1 16 across to me in very sincere and very genuine and very 17 important for this committee to pursue. One of the things 18 that we heard most of the speakers refer to is education,
)
19 and the education is very closely tied to this issue of I l
20 communication and language and what have you.
21 And I think that it's very true that, especially 22 the technical community is extremely guilty of not 23 recognizing always the forums are in and the need for more 24 straight talk or simple communication.
25 And I'm very sympathetic, Sally, to your comment l r ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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123 1 1 about acronyms -- so sympathetic that when I was running a
[)
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2 company, I said I never want to see an acronym in the 3 executive summary of any report that we generate. I never )
l 4 want to see words that people wno occasionally visit the 5 library can't comprehend. I I
6 And I think that there's no question that the' !
1 7 whole. issue of education, the whole issue of communication !
8 is extremely fundamental and it is where there's been a 9 great deal of flaw in the approach that many of us take in 1
10 implementing technical projects. '
11 They try. I guess I was a little surprised to i 12 hear Judy attack Elko II in the exploratory facility because 13 I thought that was kind of a genuine attempt to at least 14 ~with people underground and in the environment of your l
() 15 repository having some tools that they could interact with 16- and learn more about what it was all about. And Judy, we 17 need to talk about that.
18 MS. TREICHEL: Yeah, we do.
19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Planning was another word we 20 heard a great deal about. I think that everybody is t
21 frustrated by the changes that take place over time, and, of l 22 course, you expect changes, especially if you learn more and ,
I 23 you adjust to that new knowledge base along the way 24 improving the quality of whatever it is you're trying to l
[
'25 build.
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124 '
1 But I do think that the planning process and the
(~ ) 2 planning manifestation which, again, gets back to the Qi 3 communication and education issue, is an area that is 4 critically important, and that there's a great deal of room 5 for improvement.
6 I was very interested in the comments about 7 participation and why we're not getting the public 8 participation. The issue of we can't make a difference is l l
9 an issue that doesn't fundamentally make sense in a 10 democratic society. But nevertheless I'm sure that many of 11 us have come up against projects, programs, political 12 processes where we indeed did feel helpless and did not feel 13 we could make a difference. l 14 But I do believe that we can make a difference. I A
( ,) 15 think you've made a difference. I think that while you may 16 not feel that you have an influence on what's going on and 17 the directions it's taking and some of the alternatives that 18 are being considered, I think it's very clear that you have.
19 You just may be frustrated by the absence of a system that 20 manifests that -- a tracking system, sort of speak, and the 21 progress that's being made.
22 One of the things that was talked about was 23 something that our committee spends a lot of time pushing, 24 and it was described as an inter-system, interaction, 25 intra / inter, and our concept of what this is all about is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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125 l'
sometn.ag we often refer to as a top down systems integrated 2 approach so that you can see the connection between the
{
3 pieces and parts so that you have a benchmark against which 4 you can measure progress. i l
5 We hear in the program a great deal about the 6 performance assessment of the Yucca Mountain Repository.
7 And I think if you're to read the transcripts of this 8 committee's reference to the performance assessment, you 9 would see a couple of very singular themes, one of which is '
! 10 the theme of a top down integrated approach.
11 And, of course, the other is the theme of exposing {
12 the real issues and the uncertainties associated with those l
)
13 issues. We talk a lot about uncertainty. We talk a lot 14 about the compliment of uncertainty which is confidence. So
()
15 I was pleased to hear the comments about interaction and 16 integration because I think you're right on target. I think 17 that is something that we need to keep pushing and pounding.
18 We need context. We need to understand why and where. I 19 think all of you realize that we need to know what's going 20 on. I think most of us today, when we fly around the 21 country and have to depend on airplanes, our biggest single 22 gripe is that we don't always know why the delays are taking j 23 place and why we can't get the flights we have. l 24 And we know sometimes we're being manipulated and 25 sometimes even lied to as to why our airplanes are not l
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L I 126 1 arriving and leaving when they should, and we don't like
(} 2 that and we shouldn't. And we should insist on not -- that 3 not happening.
4 I appreciated the comments of Mr. Vasconi on what 5 I will refer to as the nuclear legacy that has developed in 6 Southern Nevada, the expertise that's here, the positive j 7 spin that he gave on that. And that that as a resource for l 8 the. Yucca Mountain project, an informed resource. I found l: 9 that to be very interesting, and the whole issue of national 10 pride and recognizing, again, that we are part of a whole, i i
! 11 and as a part we'can affect the whole.
f
- 12 And one of my favorite words also, Sally, is 13 accountability. I think it's a word that's gone out of 14 style. I think there's a tendency for the government to do j
) 15 everything for us and make nobody accountable. And I think l 16- it's a bad trend, and it certainly doesn't map well with the 17 spirit of people who live in this part of the country. And 18 I think it is a concept that if we don't restore it somehow, 19 we will not like the consequences.
20 So those are some of the messages, and I've got 21 more here that I got out of the meeting. And I must say 22 that I do wish that we as a committee had greater 23 opportunity to do this sort of thing. I think that the 24 reference again on participation -- that the announcements 25 are too little, too late and maybe misplaced is something we l-O ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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127 l 1 can respond to directly, can we not, Mr. Major.
,() 2. MR. MAJOR: Yes, we can. ;
3 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: And I think you will see an
]
l 4 impact from that comment.
1 5 So that -- I just wanted to assure you that some 1
6 of these messages were received. They're on the record of 7 recognizing them. And within our power and our ability, 8 we'll try to move more in the direction of responding to 9 some'of these things than perhaps has been visible in the l 10 past.
11 And so now I'll ask if any of the other committee l 12 members if they'd like to comment or disagree or confirm or i
l 13 whatever.
1 14 MR WYMER: The only thing I would add to what
() 15 John has said -- he's covered it very.well -- is I was ;
i 16 particularly interested in some of Mr. McCracken's ;
17 conversation.
18 SPEAKER: Can't hear you.
l 19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: It won't help them, but it will 20 help him. So you're going to have to speak -- you can just 21 lay it down.
22 MR. WYMER: I thought that John carried most 23 things pretty well. He did not address something that l 24 struck me particularly which was Ralph McCracken's comments 25 on the flow of people into this area and the pressure that ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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128 1 Las Vegas is putting on it, and the industry that exists.
l 2 That was particularly telling as far as I was
(~')\
\
l 3 concerned. He sort of put the whole thing in a different 1
4 light than I had had it in before. So that's all I would 5 add. John Garrick looked at the other stuff pretty well.
6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: One thing that was on my list I
l 7 that I did want to mention and I failed to was, of course, l 8 the whole issue of groundwater, and its meaning to the 9 development and quality of life in this area. That is 10 something we're very much aware of, and we know the 11 connection between groundwater and the long term performance 12 of the repository and how the groundwater must be decoupled 13 from the degrading effects of the repository.
14 Any comments from the staff on the basis of what
(~ 15 we heard?
(
l 16 SPEAKER:
This isn't on the basis of what we 17 heard. But I guess I have a question. Is it intimidating 18 to get up here and talk? Is that discourage people?
l 19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: I didn't get that sense.
20 [ Laughter . ]
21 MR. VASCONI: If I may respond, I've seen this 22 thing on TV one time. It said -- it listed the greatest 23 fears. Number one fear was crawling from a high building, 24 and the second fear was to be in front of an audience 25 getting on a mike for the general population.
[~}
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129 1 You could make it easier if you could get the
)
2 folks to sit in a small group like this where you may be 3 facing.
4 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
5 MR. VASCONI: Where you've got that eye contact.
6 People, when they get started, they like to be heard. They I 7 like to put their feelings out. We keep wondering about 8 participation. Again, putting a poster up on a wall isn't 9 going to do it. You're going to have to get some field reps 10 out there in front of you talking to the VFW, senior 11 citizens.
i 12 You're going to have to get some folks out there l 13 that's willing to spend a couple weeks and get to know the l 14 people and say, come on, we need your input. Now while 1
[ ) 15 Judy's here, I want to say something on public input.
U 16 You know, when we had the conference held in Las 17 Vegas -- when was that, May 8th? International conference 18 on high level waste with any number of countries 19 representing themselves. We was given an opportunity to go 20 before NRC, and most of us are aware of the fact of what 21 NRC's responsibilities are and that they're working with the 22 EPA, et cetera, Department of Transportation.
23 I attended that meeting at the university, and 24 there was other folks from the community that found out 25 about that meeting because it was published to attend. Now l
l l
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130 1 when I got there, I was given a piece of paper. That piece
() 2 3
of paper told me that I was -- I wish I had it with me; I'd give it to you because you, again, you respond, you review, 4, you report to, advise NRC.
l S. When I got there, I was given a piece of paper.
6 And on that piece of paper, it gave the rules and 7 . regulations. I was allowed to ask a question. I was not 8 allowed to make a comment. I was not allowed to make a 9 remark. I was not allowed to voice a personal opinions.
10 'And also on that paper, it was designated the fact if you 11 disrupt this meeting, we have an individual that will escort 12 you outside. Now why in the hell would I want to go to -
l 13 another one of those meetings.
14 [ Laughter.]
t
() 15 MR. VASCONI: But I did have an opportunity at the 16 next stage to talk to Lake Barrett and Rus Dwyer, and I l
17 said, hey, I'm wondering about that guy from Armagosa !
, 18 Valley, that guy from Lincoln County that drove 200 miles L
19 because he had something he wanted to say.
l 20 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yeah.
21 MR. VASCONI: He couldn't say a damned thing 22 because back there two years and one month, nobody was 23 listening.
24 MS. TREICHEL: You may be in for a treat. I don't 25 think any audience in this country has ever seen Bill l l l l
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131 1 Vasconi and I do an act together.
]
f,n) 2 [ Laughter.]
'u) 3 MS. TREICHEL: That meeting -- well, I guess we're 4 on the record. I better not say anything really bad.
5 [ Laughter.] I 6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: That's a good word.
7 MS. TREICHEL: That meeting was discussed on a i 1
8 teleconference. Mike Bell was there. And it was a product l l
9 of -- I hate the word -- conspiracy, actually. But it was a 10 product of something that went totally sour, 11 I had asked Chairman Jackson for a meeting with 12 NRC out here in Nevada because the people don't know NRC.
13 She sent back word through Mike Bell or John Greaves or 14 whoever it was that there should be a committee set up with i
,x l
( ,) 15 DOE, with public representatives of whom I was one and the 1
16 NRC to put together a meeting.
17 And I asked, and I pushed, and I said when is this 18 going to happen, how is it going to work. And the next 19 thing I heard was several months later Margaret Fedderlein 20 and Alan Benson had had a little meeting together, and they 21 had a couple of them. And all of a sudden, I heard that a 22 meeting had been planned. It was set up. There was a 23 format. And I walked. I said I'm not going to be a part of 24 anything, I'm not to get people out to something if it was 25 not set up in a way that was user friendly.
l
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132 1 So I wasn't there. I got chastised for not being 2~ there'. I'm_ glad Bill was there. Then I found.out what went 3 cn1 there, and I rest my case.
4 MR. VASCONI: Thank you, Judy.
5 [ Laughter.]
6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Sally, can you come up? Want 7 to be on the record?
8 MS. DEVLIN: I'll be on the record. But I just 9 want you to know we're starting a Toastmasters Club. This 10 gets easier in Piroque, and we're going to be chartered this 11 Friday.
12 There are 44 of them in Las Vegas.
13 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
14 MS. DEVLIN: So our sponsors have been wonderful t .
15 to us. 'But I'm just saying this public speaking is very l 16 difficult. I'm not used to speaking against a clock, but 17 I'm learning. And so I can encourage everybody to become a 18 Toastmaster.
l 19 When Judy was talking about these meetings and so l
[ 20 on and the rules at the meetings, again, when there's an 21 -interchange of ideas, you're not going to get someone coming 22 to an INEL meeting that isn't interested in INEL.
And it's l 23 the-same thing with this.
24 This is the'first time I have ever met you. I've l 25 been waiting for five years to see you are the people that 4
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133 1 are god, and we love you for coming. And so please
- 2 communicate with us.
3 CHAIRMAN GAF RICK: Would you tell my wife that?
4 MS. DEVLIN: I called you god god. But let us 5 hear. We give you ideas. You give us things. We don't see e 6 them. We have nothing in Piroque. Remember that.
7 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes.
8 MS. DEVLIN: We have no intercommunication. I'm 9 trying to take a course on library research on the Internet.
10 We don't even have the server that the course is given in.
11 So you hear what we are deprived of -- everything.
12 So when you consider this in notices or a meeting 13 or whatever, you have me. You have Judy. You have all 1
14' these people. We'll call people who are interested. I
{
(~T' !
. g ,/ 15 couldn't get anybody interested in coming to this meeting. j f 16 And I'm sorry to say that because really I learned a great 17 deal about what you did back --
18 MR. BELL: Yes, Sally, you and several people have 1
- 19 commented on the lack of notice for this meeting. And I'm ;
l l 20 wondering, the people who did come, how did you find out 21 about it.
I 1
22 MS. DEVLIN: A friend of mine had sent a notice in I
23 the mail and gave it to me.
24 MR. BELL: Okay, one of the mailings that the ATW
- 25 sent.
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134
)
1 MS. DEVLIN: Yes, and I also had your little
4 5 ~ website where they post all their upcoming meetings on, put '
6 the agendas on.
7 MS. DEVLIN: I just said -- I just have to tell 4
8 you this. We don't.go past on our computers 1997. So the i
9 world might have come to an end, and we wouldn't know about 10 it.
11 MR. BELL: See, that's not helpful to me.
12 MS. DEVLIN: No, it's not reaching us.
13 MS. TREICHEL: If you're doing this, you can't i 14 track NRC, EPA, DOE, ACROM, Nevada Test Site and track each
() 15 of those meetings. I mean, there's a lot of DOE that you 16 don't have here today that you probably would have, but p 17 they're on a retreat. You've got three and four meetings i
. 18 sometimes back to back, and there's no real good calendar.
19 This meeting had a difficult time deciding when it was and 4
20 where it was. So calendars change all the time. And I 21 think it's good that DOE's quit putting one out because it 22 . was more confusing to have cancellations and stuff moved 23 than it was not to have known and to just get a hold of 24 people.
25 But I spend a lot of time tracking people down, I
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4 1
135 1 and I knew about.this one because' they knew they'd have hell 2- to pay if I didn't know about it. 3 .MS. DEVLIN: Why didn't you schedule one in Vegas? 4 ' CHAIRMAN GARRICK: I don't know. Yes, Robert? 5 MR. MCCRACKEN: Thank you. I heard that their 6 meeting in Vegas was cancelled to be out here to view the 7 effect of the population, for what that's worth. 8 How did I find out about this? I have a couple
.]
9 friends in the media. That's how I found out about this. 10 That's why I started with my first comment. Along the way 11 when I first started talking, I left out something I'd like , 12 to invite you folks to do when you come back out here again 1 13 is to in the evening or the afternoon go up to Beatty, see ! l 14 what Beatty is. ' () 15 And on your way back, make sure you come back 16 after dark. When you look out this way, you'll see a lot of 17 little lights scattered out here. That will give you a very j 18 clear visual perception of where the people are out here. 19 Each one of those lights-you can multiply by two and a half, 4 20 and that is the approximate number of the homes that are out 21 here. 22 You just don't see them in the daytime. Another 23 indication you can use to see where the people are out here 4 24 is look for trees. That's it. Thank you. , 25 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Thank you. Well, we've done a i $ \~) ['N ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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136 1 wonderful job of keeping on schedule. And unless somebody 2 has a burning desire to make a final comment, I'd like to
\_
3 continue to keep on schedule. l l 4 SPEAKER: You've got a burning desire over there. i 5 CRAIRMAN GARRICK: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I 6 MR. LARKIN: No, I find this discussion has been l i 7 very insightful, more so than what I had anticipated l 8 originally. And yesterday, we were talking about public l l 9 participation. I really didn't have the feeling that there I i 10 was a large number of people who were actually being more 11 proactive in what was going on in this program, what the 12 committee was doing. 13 I think it's tended to change my views. And I 14 think there's been a lot of ideas expressed today that we O ( ,)\ 15 might go back and work on to maybe enhance public
- i l 16 participation so maybe the priorities might be a little l
17 adjusted. I see the staff's smiling. I guess they l 18 recognize it's sort of a change of view. l l 19 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: He's one of these guys that 20 says nothing's impossible as long as somebody else can do
)
i 21 it. 22 MR. LARKIN: The other thing, there was a lot of l 23 concern expressed on transportation, and transportation is 24 an issue that we are going to be addressing. It's not in 25 the first tier priority right now, but it's an issue that's l (s ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 842-0034 l l
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l l l 137 1 obviously going to come before the committee at some point. ! [ ') 2 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. ! \ss/ . I 3 MS. DEVLIN: Well, I just want to interject OSHA's l l 4 going to be looking at transportation for the next ten 5 years. I called them. l 6 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: Yes. 7 MS. DEVLIN: So I'm sorry, you know. To me, 8 that's number one. Where are you going to put on the , i 9 transport? Where are the cannisters. It just brings up 10 more accountability stuff. l 11 CHAIRMAN GARRICK: We understand what you're 12 saying. Okay, what I'd like to do is for the committee, 13 take a five minute recess and reconvene. This ends our 14 public forum. But I'd like to have the committee come back 1 (,3 ( j 15 and engage in some of the work we have to do to address our 16 letters and reports. 17 And I think this also is the end of when we need 18 to be on record. So five minute recess for the committee 19 and staff. 20 [Whereupon, the recorded session of the meeting 21 was concluded.] 22 23 24 l 25 l l [ \ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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(..... . . . . .- - -... - ~~. _.- - ..-. -.- - .. ..-.. -. -.--.-,..~.-. . REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE i This is to certify that the attached proceedings j before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of: , NAME OF PROCEEDING: MEETING: 104TH I l ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) l l [. CASE NUMBER: L. I l l
.)
PLACE OF PROCEEDING: Amargosa Valley, Nevada ! were held as herein appears, and that this is'the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear i Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereafter reduced to
- typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
h r- c 1 j ._ Carey Leffler Official Reporter l Ann Riley & Associates, Ltd. a e i i l-i. L
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