ML20066B535
| ML20066B535 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 10/23/1989 |
| From: | Austin T BROWN & ROOT, INC. (SUBS. OF HALLIBURTON CO.) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20066B530 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-90-316 NUDOCS 9101080104 | |
| Download: ML20066B535 (53) | |
Text
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OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS a
AgeflCy; Huclear Regulatory Commission IINCI 2nvestigative Interview of T. Louis Austin, Jr.
Docket No.
t mygog; Houston, Texas an Monday, October 23, 1989 PMts: 1 - 45 fr.brmation in this re:ctd was Mded in at ordr.ce with t eedorn of Information A:t, exempU ns _. _g2_C 9101000104 900010 PDR FOIA PDR F0l A _fd__'- 7/M KOHN90-316 ANN RIIF(& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
1612 K SL N.W Suke 300 I ushington,D.C 20006 (202) 29H950 j2C '&[4W
1
,i 1
BEFORE THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COHHISSION OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS
.............x Interview of: :
T. LOUIS AUSTIN, JR. :
.............x Conference room, 7th Floor Building 01 offices of Brown & Foot, Inc.
4100 Clinton Drive Houston, Texas M:nday, October 23, 1989 AFFEAFANCES:
I On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
VIRGINIA J. VAN CLEAVE, Investigator office of Investigations U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commissinn 611 Ryan Plaza Dr:ve, Suite 1000 Arlington, Texas 76011 on behalf of Brown & Root-and Hr. Austin:
J. PATRICK HICKEY, P.C.
Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 2300 N Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037 0041B4 f} -
Cut NO. 4- 89-0 08 PAGE / OFL Alb PAGE(S)
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- 1 EB99EIQld9E I
2 HS. VAN CLEAVE: For the record, this is an 3 interview of Louis Austin, who is employed by Brown & Root.
. 4 The location of this interview is Brown & Root, 4100 5 Clinton, Houston, Texas. The date is october 23rd, 1989, 6 and the time is 10:55 a.m.
7 Present at this interview are: Myself, Virginia B Van Cleave, Investigator for the Nuclear Regulatory 9 commission; and representing Brown & Root ar.d Mr. Austin, 10 Patrick Hickey with Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge. The
'1 interview is being t ranscribed by the court reporter. Sandra 12 Harden, g_ 13 Hr. Austin, would you please stand and rsise your 14 right hand?
15 MR. AUST!N: I don't know whether you want te keep-16 it efficial, but that's my official name (ter.dering business 17 card.)
18 HS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay, good idea.
19 Whereupon, 20 ,
T. LOUIS AUSTIN, JR.
21 was duly sworn and was-interviewed and answered as follows:
22 HR. AUSTIN: I never worry about what anybody 23 calls me, but when becoming involved-with the Nuclear Power,
! 24 you have to look up to the technical points.
25 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's true. I probably should
(
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1 1 have asked, but I had looked at your transcript fo* the j 2 Senate Subcommittee, and I don't remember that it had that 3 "T" in front of there. But I probably didn't look at it l
4 very carefully.
5 EXAMINA710N 6 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
7 Q. Mr. Austin, how long have you been enployed at A prown & Root?
9 A. Since August of '83.
10 Q. And have you been the president of Brown & Foot 11 since that tine?
12 A. Well, I was the president up until the first of
( 13 this year, and then ! became chairman.
14 Q. As I told you on the phone, we are interest ed in 15 +alking to you - getting some informatien about your 16 veetings or telephone conversations that you had with a 17 forwer Brown & Poot employee named Joseph Macktal. Are you 18 familiar with Mr. Macktal, or do you recall having 19 conversations or meetings with him?
20 A. Yeah, reasonably so.
21 Q. Okay. Do you have any records, either recordings 22 or business notes or anything that you were able to refresh 23 your memory about meetings with Mr. Macktal?
24 A. Nothing except what's in the file there. I think 25 Pat's got it.
(
r EXHlBIT 69E b OF N b PAGRS)
,3 33, 4 89-008
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l 4 l 1 MR. HICKEY: I imagine that you had been able to 2 confirm the meeting that you had with him in April of 1986 3 through a calendar that you had, f
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that eclendar-- yeah. Okay.
5 A. [ Continuing)- I met with him twice.
6 Q. Okay. Do you recall who initiated contaet? Was 7 that Mr. Macktal, or was that you?
8 A. No, Mr. Macktal did.
9 0 Did he telephone you? Did he write you a letter?
3 10 or--
11 A. No, he called me.
12 0 What do you recall the general discussion of that I 13 telephone conversation or what Mr. Macktal said he wanted?
\,
'4 A. Yeah, I remember that part of it. We had A 15 special emphasis on at Conanche Peak to sort of trpreve t r.e if morale up t here, and so, Texas Utilities-- This was e Texas 17 Utilities emphasis. But I think this was all the 18 professional people. I don't think the erafts were 19 involved. -
20 But they had-- They couldn't get everybody in one 21 room, so they had either two lunches or three lunches. At 22 that time, Joe George was the project manager for Texas 23 Utilities there, and Joe made a talk about everybody pulling 24 together and all like this and asked me to come up and make 25 a talk, so, we did that at lunch.
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EXHlBIT 4- 8y -0 08 PAGE N OF S h PAGE(S n No. _
l i 5 i And I made some reference to lawyers.
2 THE WITNESS: (To Mr. H.'ckey) Present company.
3 A. [ Continuing) And somebody had-- According to 4 Macktal, somebody had told him about this. And he called ne
, 5 and said he didn't like lawyers either and could we meet.
6 That was...
7 Q. Okay. Do you recall about when that was?
8 A. Yeah, that was in-- What did we look up this 9 morning? --rebruary of '86, in O. And do you remember where you met with Mr. Maektal 11 that first time?
12 A. The first time, I went down to Cleburne-- I'm
( 13 pretty sure it was Clebitrne. He pieked ne up, 4r.d we went 14 somewhere and had a hamburger or something.
15 O. Okay. So. you flew inte Cleburne or y:u drive 16 down to Cleburne--
17 A. Yeah, I flew into Cleburne. He met mc at the 18 airport.
19 Q. Was anyone else prasent during that meeting?
20 ,
A. Not at that meeting.
21 Q.- So, it was just you and Mr._Macktal.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. What was the discussion at that time?
24 A. Well, he was claiming that he had gone to safe 25 Team-- And I-found out he had'gone to Safe Team. --and i
EXHIBIT LASENO.
4- 89-0 O8 PAGE_ h OF_ N - N
6 1 that he had been harassed by the Brown & poot supervision ,
2 because of expressing his safety concerns, i 3 And I told him then, and I told him at the next 4 meeting and any phone calls, if he had any safety concerns, 5 we wanted to know about it because we wanted to build a safe 6 plant.
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7 Q. What did he tell you regarding the purpose of his 8 esking to meet wath you?
9 A. Well, the gist of it was he wanted his-- wanted a-10 job back. And after that meeting, we-- I didn't-- I !
11 really didn't think he'd been harassed. But I remember ene 12 thing he brought up in that meeting or a phone call or 13 another meeting was the reascn he thought he was harassed, 14 his wife had some emergency and she.had called the plant, 15 and he felt like they just didn' ret that phone call to 16 him. Things like that, q
17 I-- You know, large organizations, you dcn't 18 always get a phone call through, so... But I-- I was
( '19 trying to lean over backwards to help the guy. And he was 20 mad at all his lawyers. That's the reason for the first 21 ' phone call. And so, we offered him a job-- I think that's 22 part of the record. --back at Comanche peak. We didn't 23 have anything to hide as far as safety was concerned. But 24 he didn't-- he decided not to take that job.
25 Q. Let's back up a minute. When he initially called i
r EXHlBIT CASL KQ. 4-89-008 PAGE_ dOF 4h PAGE(S)
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1 you, he had a Department of Labor case pendinc, did he not? l 2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. So, you say that he was sad at all his attorneys. ,
4 Lid he say why?
5 A. Well, he-- Not exactly. He just-- He thought 6 they'd misled him or something. You'd have to get that from l
7 him.
l 8 Q. I just thought maybe he had mentioned to you why 9 he--
1 ', A. Well, he did, but I just... I...
11 Q. Can't recall?
12 A. I wasn't too much interested in--- I felt sorry I~ 13 for him, but I didn't-- 1 don't remember all the things 14 that he said there.
15 Q. Why did you agree to meet with him in cleburne?
16 A. Oh, I Just meet with anybody that wants to meet 17 with me at any time. I've done that for forty years. I've 13 probably got the most open-door policy of any chief
..19 executive in the world.
20 Anti-nukes while I was-- You know that I was with 21 Texas Utilities?
22 Q. Yes, I understood that.
23 A. Anti-nukes came out and demonstrated inLmy front 24 yard one time. And instead of. fighting them or ar.ything, I 25 went-out and invited them in for coffee.
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00ilBR J CASE E 4-89-006 PAGE 7 OF N PAGE(S)
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8, 1 O. D.d they come?
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2 A. Yeah. I mean, two of them did. And then-they felt sort of guilty, it was a pretty cold morning, so they 3
4 went back out.
, 5 Just, anybody that calls me and wants to meet me.
6 I cast with them.
7 C. Yont policy is an open-door policy, and you are 6 sayang you dion't really treat Mr. Macktal any different 9 than you would any other employee-- t 10 A. That's right.
11 Q. --that called you with a conplaint?
12 A. No, I do that all the time. I had a guy egli ne
[ 13 the other day.
I called him back and lef t word for him to 14 call me. And he didn't, so I-called him back again.
15 llllk I didn't know him, just 'ike I 16 didn't know Macktal. And finally, when I callec this ;
17 back yesterday, his son or Lamethir.g called and said. '"a...
18 he's gone to California on a job."
19 And I said, "Well, I guess that's what he was 20 calling me about."
21 O. So, you did not know Mr. Macktal when he initially 22 called you.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you aware that he had this suit pending?
25 A. I don't think I was. When he called and wanted to t
c eeuBR- -
CASE NO. 4-89-0 08 J[ On 46 FAGE(S) 4 7c .C.,.
9 i meet on this, then I asked: Who is Macktal? But I may have 2 been.in a meeting, you know, where a number of suits were--
3 B u t. I don't recall knowing before he called.
4 Q. Did you check on the status of his suit before you 5' met with him?
6 A, yes.
7 Q. Mr. Macktal has stated that he met with you here 8 at Brown & Root first.
9 A. No.
10 Q. You don't--
11 A. I don't ever remember Hacktal meetir.g here.
- 2 Q. You den't recall Mr. Macktal coming here?
13 A. No. I really don't. I don't know why he would s
14 have said that.
1B Q. Well. I don't either. and that's why I'm bringin; 16 it up, If you checked your calendar, would you be able to 17 tell me the date you met with Mr. Macktal at Cleburr.e so we 18 :ould.see whether or not we're talking about the same
'19 meeting or different meetings or--
20 A. I think it was February the 20th.
21 HR. HICKEY: Does he give a specific date? Does 22 Macktal give a specific?
23 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Uh-huh. And that's February the 24 21st. So, he's saying he met here.
25 //
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EXHlBU' i PAGE 9 0E 4& PAGE(S) cAstNO. 4-89-008
10 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE: 1 2 Q. Do you recall meeting Mr. Macktal here at the 3 Brown & Root offices? l 4 A. I sure don't. But does he talk about meeting in i i
5 Cleburne, also?
6 Q. Uh-huh.
7 A. Maybe he did co e down here, but I sure-- I don't 8 remember it.
9 Q. What I'd like so do, if you have your--
10 A, I don't think-- Well, yeah, there was something I 11 didn't -understand on my calendar that said ten o': lock 12 P4:ktal en the 21st.
13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 A. And maybe he did come down here. And I r.h ou g h t 15 that-- I just never do clean up my calendars _very good, 16 And I thought + hat was that meeting we had on the 20th.
17 MR. HICKEY: Well, if I can interject ;ust a 18 moment, you had a recollection, though, of Mr. Macktal in 19 his red pickup truck-- .
20 THE WITNESS: I know I met him-- But she's--
21 MR. HICKEY: --picking you up.
22 THE WITNESS:- But she't. talking about three 23 meetings now.
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That'a correct.
25 A. [ Continuing) And maybe he did something that-- I t
EXHIBIT
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put No. 4-89-0 08
11 i can't remember that meeting. But there's something, now 2 that you've brought it up, triggers in my mind that he was 3 going to be in Houston and he was going to bring me 4 something or scmething. But that's-- I really don't-5 remember that.
6 Q. Okay. Well, we'll just talk then about the
? conversations generally, rather than trying to say what was B spoken about here or what was spoken about in Cleburne.
9 Did you discuss the 210 claim that Macktal had 10 pending with the Department of Labor?
11 A. No, that-- I meet with folks, but every time I 12 meet with pecple like that, like on a first reeting, and I 13 tell them the first thing, "you know, I'm not fe.miliar with 14 this. But I'll sit down and listen to your side of the
- S story. And then I'll go back and-check on it."
16 And he told me his side of the story, which was--
1 -? See, it never was a safety issue as far as I was concerned.
18 He had taken his safety concerns to Safe Team, and the issue
'19 was that he'd been harassed-into first he asked to be 20 demoted from foreman back to craftsman,'and then he finally
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21 quit. And his issue always,.to me, was that he was being 22 harassed because he'd taken his safety concerns to Safe 23 Team.
24 Q. Uh-huh.
25 A. And I didn't-think he had, but as the record t
l EXHIBir PAGE ll 0F 4 0 PAGE(S) estNo. 4-89-008
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1 shows, we offered him a job there. And'then later on after l 2 this second meeting-- Well, I'll wait until you get to 1
3 that.-
l l
4 Q. Okay. You said you offered him his-job back. You-5 offered him his job back at Comanche Peak?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you offer him any back pay?
8 A. No, we did not offer him any back pay because he 9 had quit. Of his own vc.4 tion as far as we were concerned.
10 Q. Did Mr. Hacktal tell you he had not quitoof his own volition, that he was forced to? I 11 12 A. Well, that was his claim, was he'd been harassed.
But he did quit. I mean, technically, he quit. But, yes,
( 13 14 that was his-- that was the reason he. called me, that he 15 had been harassed into quitting.
16 Q. Did he name any nares, or do you recall who 17 harassed him? l 18 A. No.
'19 Q. Did he-- ,
1 20 ,
A. Well, I believe he named some: names, but I'm not 1
21 familiar with-- You know,~I don't know all the 30,000 22 people who work for us, so their names,.I was not familiar 23- with.
24 Q. You didn't take any-notes during either of these 25 meetings?
r EXHIBIT --
CASEN0. 4-89-008 PAGE__l A OF_ D PAGE
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13 i A. (Shaking head.)
2 Q. "No"?
3 A. No. I forget, you got to put something there.
I think she could probably say: He-was shaking 4 Q.
5 his head no, but...
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. During the initial meeting, Did Mr. Macktal make 8 any suggestions or have any ideas as to what he wanted fre.-
9 you or from Brown & Root?
'O A. Yeah, I thought he war.ted his' job back.
11 Q. But you said that he told you-- or. he e..ded up 12 turning down your job offer.
13 A. Yeah, tnat's right. But I thought frem the gist A.
14 ef the conversation that first night that that was really 15 what he wanted. He was tired of fooling with lawyers snd 16 all like this, and he wanted to go back to work.
17 Q. So, during that--
18 A. I guess I was wrong.
"19 Q. During that meeting, did you say, "I'll let you 20 have your job back"?
21 A. No, I didn't. At a meeting like that, I-- I 22 don't know what I said. But at a meeting 1~ike that, I 23 always says, "Well, this is your side of the story, and 24- there's always two sides to every story. And I'll go back 25 and check it."
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14 1 1 Q. When did someone offer him his job back? 1 2 A. That's in the record we've got. It's somewhere.
3 HR. HICKEY: It's March 13, is the date of the 4 letter. ,
5 MS. VAN CLEAVE:- March 13th,.19867.
6 HR. HICKEY: Right.
7 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Was that formal.ly through the dol-B hearing and through your atterneys, or...
9 HR. HICKEY: Well, it's in conjunction-- I think 10 it's part of the Department of Labor record. It's -in 11 conjunction with the Department of Labor investagstion, and
'2 the letter is signed by a Broi.n & Root employee, the *.anager
/ 13 of er.ployee relations.
\,.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: May I see that, please?
15 (The requested document was tendered.)
16 BY HS. VAN CLEAVE:
- 7 Q. Now, this says: "This letter-is to c r. firm the
'8 unconditional offer of reinstatement communic ted to you
'19 last week by Mr. Louis: Austin and Mr. Roy Watkins."
20 HR. HICKEY: Mr. Watkins:is a Labor Department' 21 employee.
22 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I understand.
23 A. Yeah, I guess I must have called him then. I 24 don't remember that conversation. But I had several 25 conversations with Mr. Macktal.
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EXHlBIT 1 LASL E 4-89-0 08 PAGE /4 OF $ PAGE(S)
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1 0. - You don't recall then specifically offering him 2 his job? You specifically offering him his job back.
3 A. I did, but I don't recall'the conversation.
4 Q. Do you recall what he-told you when you offered k
5 him his job back?
t 6 A. No, not-specifically. But I-- Each time I talked _ ,
7 to him, I felt like he was going to do something.
B Q. What do you mean?
9 A. Well, I mean, I felt like he would take his job 10 back. But then he'd call back and-- He'd go and consult 11 with somebody and come back and say he didn' t want it.
12 Q. When he told you he didn't want it, did he say 13 what he did want?
k.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did he say who he was censulting with?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did he say he'd gotten advice from sonecne and, 18 theref ore, he's not going- to -accept- your ef f er--
19 A. No.
20 Q. --or anything 1ike that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Any indication L to why he turned down- your i 23 offer?
24 A. I can't_ remember. He may have. I think the guy 25 really is sort of a decent guy.
EXHIBIT _ -
usn 4- 89-008 c g 7,3pos_!1opj(f JAGE(S)
16 4 Q. Okay. All right, let's go back to this meeting in 5 February. Do you recall how you left the meeting.with Mr. i 1
6 Macktal? you said earlier usually you get the employee's l 7 side of the story and then you say, "you know, there's two i 8 sides to every story." Do you recall what you told Mr.
9 Macktal at that time? j 10 A. I don't recall exactly, but what I would have said 11 would be, "Okay, this is your side'of the story. I'll go 12 back and check on it and get back with you."
13 And that's what-- I went and checked on it and l 14 got back with him and offered him his job back. !
15 Q. So, you believe that-.there was a telephone -
- 16. conversation in here somewhere between-- And again, I have 17 three meetings from Mr. Macktal. Mr. Macktal told nie thore !
18 Here three meetings. ,
19 A. Okay. l 20 ,
Q. So, we'll need to check on'that if you have any I
21 record that could clarify that for me.
22 The indication would be, by the date of this 23 letter, that there was-a phone conversation from you to Mr.
24 Macktal between the first and second meeting.
25 HR. HICKEY: Well, it depends on what--
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1 1 MS, VAN CLEAVE: Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. HICKEY: --yeah, what meetings you're calling 1
i 3 the first and second.
4 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right. And--
5 HR. HICKEY: Which Mr. Austin has said he really 6 only remembers two meetings.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Right.
8 THE WITNESS: But I can't deny that other reeting.
9 Because there's something--
10 HR. HICKEY: Well, you can't deny'it, but you 11 can't affirm it.
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah,
'3
. MR. HICKEY: You. don't recall--
t A- 14 THE WITNESS: That's right.
15 MR. HICKEY: --having a meeting with him here at-
- 6 Brown & Root.
17 HS. VAN CLEAVE: But if we go back to Mr. Austin's 18 calendar using the dates Mr. Macktal has provided, maybe 1
l '19 perhaps we can confirm whether or not three meetings took l
20 place.
21 -
MR. HICKEY: Well, no. All he can confirm is that 22 his calendar has an entry that says: On the 21st of 23 February a meeting with Macktal. But he doesn't remember 24 the meeting taking place. He thinks it took place the night 25 before, the 20th.
EXHIBIT __
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t 18 I i A. [ Continuing) See, when I.look.at my calendar, i
2 unfortunately I don't clean my calendars up. I keep too 3 much in my head. It says: ~ Ten o' clock the 21st,.Hacktal, j 4 But it also says a hunting trip that I was going on. And l 5 so, I interpreted that-- And it doesn't have it the-night' '
6 before. But it has a Haliburton-board meeting'on Thursday,-
7 the 20th. And I'm pretty sure that's when I flew on down to-8 cleburne on the way home and met with Hacktal.
9 And there's just: a-- I-can't visualize. I can't-10 do anything. But now that you've' brought =it up, 'I think he 11 did say that he wanted to bring me semething er sower.hing.
12 And that was on the-- the-21st?
- 3 Q. The 21st is the date_that I was give... -
14 A. Thursday is--- Well, what date did h+ give that we i5 met in Cleburr.e?-
16 Q. March. March the 25th.
17 A. Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: Can we caucus a minute?
'19 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Sure.
20 off the record. The time is approximately 10:18 ~
21 a.m.-- rus, 11:18 a.m. I'm_sorry.
22 (Brief recess in the 23-proceedings.~)
24 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Back on the record after a-short 25 break. The time is approximately 11:22 a.m.
i-EXHIBIT- 1 MM 4-89-008 AGE N W D PAM l
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19 i THE WITt4ESS: I just checked my March calendar, 2 and I don't have-anything on there. I still remember it as 3 coming through Cleburne from somewhere.- And I just-- With 4 that February entry on my calendar, I just assumed it was--
5 But all I remember is: I came through.Cleburne 6 and met him.
7 BY HS. VAN CLEAVE:
8 Q. Do you have anything unusual or anything you can't 9 explain on your calendar for sometime around March the 25th, 10 19867 11 A. Well, it looks like I was in Florida. But 12 sor.etimes I ecme home early from meetings.
, 13 MR. HICKEY: Or Alaska-- Oh, Florida was the
(
'4 Southeast.
15 THE WITNESS: Florida, y e a h '.
16 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
17 .Q. Business trip?
18 A. Yeah. It was a-- the southeast utilities have a 19 meeting down there every year, and we build power plants for 20 people in the southeast.
21 .Q . When you met with Mr. Macktal at cleburne, was 22 that in a company plane?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you fly down there in a company plane?
25 A. Yes.
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EXHIBIT
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cutH0. 4- 89-0 08
.1 20 1 Q. Would they not have records of when you were--
2 where you were and-- 1 3 A. yeah, I guess we might.
4 THE WITNESS: Make a note of that.
5 Q. I'd really like to clarify this.
6 A. And I'll-also check to see if I can verify whether ,
7 I went to the Southeastern Exchange. I always put more 8 things on my calendar--
9 Q. Than you can do?
10 A. --than I can do. And at the last minute, I decide 11 which one I'm going to do.
12 Q. Okay. All right, if you could--
13 A. So, I'm not trying to dodge your questler.s. I'm 14 trying to be helpful.
15 Q. No, I understand that. I just-- I would like te 16 :enfirm or deny--
17 A. Yeah. But I did meet Mr. Macktal in cleburne.
18 And I don't specifically remember when it was. But in 19 trying to go-through my notes, I picked that date. Now, I 20 could be wrong.
21 Q. -I believe we can probably substantiate it or get a 22 better idea either by.your-company jet's records or your 23 personal travel-records. You do file for travel expenses 24 and that kind of thing.
25 A. yeah, but I wouldn't-- Okay, yeah, we'll do the i
EXHlBil 1-CASEHO. 4-89-008
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21 i best we can, 2 Q. You should have some information as to whether or 3 not you were in Florida.- It might not tell you that you 4 were in.the Cleburne airport, but at least you'd know you=
5 were in Florida.
6 A. Yeah. Well--
7 MR. HICKEY: Is there something specific about the 8 25th that enables Mr. Macktal to affix the date that would 9 help us?
10 MS. VAN CLEAVE: I think that he' started to keep a 11 record because he told me that the 21st he was not 100-12 percent certain, it could be the 20th.
13 HR. HICKEY: Of February. That's the February.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: That's the February meeting, But
'S he has specifically named the other times to me, and I don't 16 know exactly if he's relying on memory or if he '. cept sore
'T notes or when he prepared the notes.that he does have, F:e 18 is adamant that he met with Mr. Austin three times.
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'19 'THE WITNESS: I know I met with h'im twice, and he 20 might have brought something by here or something.
21 MS. VAN CLEAVE: If someone could just-check on 22 that for me, I would like to clear it up.- I'd appreciate 23 it.
24 MR. HICKEY: Uh-huh. l 25 l
// '
r !
EXHIBIT PAGE) / OF 4 k- PAGE(S 1
- . - . . _ - -. - - . - ~
P i
-22 1 BY MS. VAN CLEAVE:
2 Q. This letter went to Ms. Billie Garde from Brown &
When you talked to Mr. Macktal, was he aware that 3 Root.
4 that letter had been-sent to Ms. Garde? Did he mention that 5 letter?
6 MR. HICKEY: Which time that he talked to him--
7 A. My recollection--
M S ', VAN CLEAVE: Well, we're going to have 8
9 problems since his recollection and Mr. Austin's don't 10 correlate because he says that he met with Mr. Austin March Si the 5th, which would be after that letter, in the Clebarne 12 area.
13 'MR. HICKEY: Right.
14 MS. VAN CLEAVE: So, you know, that--
15 MR. HICKEY: I_was just unclear about the meaning 16 of your questlon to Mr. Austin. When Mr. Aust in talked t o 17- Mr. Macktal at Cleburne? Was that what we're. talking about?
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Orfby telephone.- I believe he
'19 said he had some conversations with Mr. Macktal by 20 telephone. And I was curious to know if Mr. Macktal had 21 said anything about his-lawyer, Ms. Garde.
22 A. No, when I met with him the first time, he was 23 talking about some Dallas lawyers that were representing 24 him. I don't remember the names. But they could have 25 been-- You know, this was the GAP group--- I can't tell EXHIBIT N CASE M- 4-89-0 08
23 1 you. I just remember something about Dallas lawyers, but 2 all of my stuff is foggy.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But I am pretty sure that we offered him 5 employment in that letter after I met him, and he says not.
6 Q. Well, now, that's not necessarily true. He says 7 there was meeting February 21st or 20th, but another meeting 8 in Cleburne on March the 25th, which would be after this.
9 And then another meeting in April, 10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. So, you've got two meetings after the da+e of this 12 '. e t t e r , I guess formally offering his job brek, and a 13 . meeting,- whether it was here or there, one prior to this 14 ttre. And the letter- - This letter indicates that you were 15 the one to make him an offer of reinstaterent.
16 A. Well, that's the reason I-- I just-- That's-the 17 way I would have done business. That's the way I remember 18 doing business. I listened to his ecmplaints +nd didn't--
'19 you know, said, "There's two sides to every question,'but '
20 I'll check into them." And I checked into it and felt that 1 21 he had not been harassed but just, giving him the benefit of 1
22 the doubt, called him and offered him a job and confirmed :t l 23 by letter.
24 Q. Do you recall how you checked into it? Do you 25 recall if you-- Do you have an assistant or someone that l
EXHIBli l m m. e 89 -0 0s '^ ' # 3 ' H b "* *
24 1 you might have asked to look into the matter for you?
2 A. Ob, I just called the people up at Comanche peak 3 and said, "What's going on here?" In'his record up there, 4 these interviews, they sent me all those interviews where he 5 had come in and-- first, voluntarily to say he ought to go-6 back to a craftsman instead of a foreman and then resigning.
7 C. What about the Safe Team? Did you get a' copy of 8 the Safe Team investigation?
9 A. Huh-uh.
10 HR. HICKEY: What was your answer? Did you say, 11 "No"?
12 THE WITNESS: But-- Okay, now, let's--
[ 13 MR. HICKEY: I just didn't hear you. I heard
-14 you--
15 THE WITNESS: Did I get a copy of the Safe Taam.
16 MR. HICKEY: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: .Okay.
'19 MR. HICKEY: I didn't think-it was on the record, 20 I heard you say something softly, but I couldn't. determine 21 what it was.
22 A. (Continuing) Because I really wanted-- In my 23 mind all this time, it wasn't a question of safety even 24 though'in that later meeting he brought up some other safe 25 things that Glen Magnuson made notes of. Because I kept
( -
EXHIBIT 1 pstge. 4-89-008 PAGE 2 4 OF 4(r PAGE(S)
l i
25 1 saying, "If you've got anything unsafe, let us know about 2 it." And his argument-- or, his talking at me was that he 1 1
3 wanted work because he'd been harassed into quitting or 4 something. And I figured there was Safe Team-- Saft' Team 5 was set up by Texas Utilitten so guys like me can't get the 6 record and fire somebody.
7 Q. Did Mr. Macktal indicate to you during these~first 8 one or two meetings that he had any additional safety l
9 concerns that he had not expressed to either Safe Team or to 10 the NRC?
11 A. He did at that second meeting. He may have 12 mentioned them at the first, and that's the reascn said, ,
/
13 "What are they?" And, "Why don't you.take them to Safe 14 Team?"
15 Q. Why did you make this offer to Mr. Macktal if you 16 felt like his concern, if you will, was inaccurate or 17 unjustified, that he was'not harassed or intimidated? Why 18 did you make the-offer to him to give him his job back? -
19 A. I thought he was a nice little guy,-and if there's 20 some-- You know, you never can make a complete accurate 21 'nvestigation i of anything. Maybe you can, but I can't. And 22 If there was some something I'd overlooked or something, 23 we'd go and offer him his job back.
24 Q. Is your statement then that you wanted to give 25 him the benefit of the doubt?
i EXHlBMi 1-CASE N0. 4-89-008 NEMR N-
?
26 1 A. Yes. I think I said that a minute ago.
2 Q. I just want to be sure I understand.
3 A. Yeah. .
4 Q. Was that your decision?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you get any input from-your attorneys =who were 7
representing Brown & Root on Mr. Macktal's Department of 8 Labor case?
9 MR. HICKEY: You can answer that,'but you don't 10 want to indicate what yea were told by your attorneys or 11 what you discussed with your attorneys.
12 A.
I discussed it in general with then, yes.
13 Q. But this was your--decision, to offer Mr. !Mektal 14 his job bark;--
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. --is that correct?
17 Now, you ' ve i nd ica t ed to n.e, we dor. ' t know e,sa:tly
'B when or how many times you talked to Mr. Macktal, but you've 19 indicated that you did talk to him at some point after this 20 letter went out. Do you recall whether or not he called you 21 or you called him?
Do you recall how you know that he 22 turned down your job of fer?
23 A. No, I don't recall that.
24 Q. There was another meeting irr April of 1986. Do 25 you recall who initiated that meeting? l 1
gg g, 4 89-008 PAGE Ab 0F 4b PAGE(S) i
27 1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Where did that 'ake place?
3 A. In Stephenville.
4 Q. Where in Stephenville?
5 A. In some motel there.
6 Q. Could that'be the Holiday Inn?
? A. Could be.
B Q. And who was present during that meeting besides 9 yourself and Macktal?
10 A. Glen Magnuson.
11 Q. You said earlier that Mr. Magnuson took so.me 12 notes?
13 A. I think he did, yes.
Do you have copies of those by any chance?
14 Q.
15 A. No.
16 THE-WITNESS: Do you have copies of these? 1 1 'l MR. HICKEY: Well, she's asking if-y u-do. ;
18 A. [ Continuing) I don't. >
'19 Q. Do you know if Mr. Magnuson has copies of those 20 notes or if they're available-- '
A.
21 I'm going to leave that up to him.
22 Q. Do you know if they're available anywhere at Brown 23 & Root?
24 A. We'll see.
q 25 Q. Okay. If you would check and see whether or not
]
. O octen l d PAGE c2'l 0F O PAGE(S)
EASE E 4-89-008 ,
,J
28 1 those notes are-- if they.still exist, if they're still 2 here at Brown & Root, I'd_ appreciate it.
3 A. We'll check.
4 MR. HICKEY: I would think, if they exist, . they_
5 may-- And I think they do I think they're probably 6 privileged.
7 BY MS, VAN CLEAVE:
8 Q. Then Mr. Magnuson was-there as official counsel 9 representing Mr. Austin and/or Brown & Root?
10 A. Brown & Root.
11 Q. Okay. What was the gist of your discuss 2cns at 12 that meeting in Stephenville with Mr. Macktal?
13 A. The gist of-the thing-- The gist of the neeting, s..
14 excuse me. was still that Mr._Macktal thought _he'd been 15 discriminated against and harassed and all._ And-I was just 16 trying to be fair and.say, "Well, if you~ don't want'to core 17 here, we'll offer you a job somewhere else."
18 And he voiced some of his safety concerns. And I
'19 said, "We'll check them out." And came home, checked on it, 20 and eventually we made him another offer.
21 O. Do you have any records of the safety concerns 22 that he told you about at that meeting?
23 A. Unless Magnuson-- I don't have them.
24 Q. How about Brown & Root? Did you, or Hr. Magnuson 1 25 perhaps, make a list of any safety concerns that Mr. Macktal EXHlBRL gst g, 4 89-008 PAGE M SE A
29 1 had and provide them to someone at the site?
(
2 A. yeah, we checked-- Anything that he said, we 3 checked out at the site. Now, whether it was verbal or 4 whether it was all in writing-- But we will find out what-5 we got.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. And what's not privileged and all, I'll defer to 8 my lawyer.
9 Q. I would like to know what type of safety concerns 10 Mr. Macktal mentioned to you at that meeting, if you have ,
11 any notes or anyone'at Brown & Root--
12 A. I can't recollect the specifi: things, but he did
~
13- talk about those because I'm not an electrical. engineer.
14 Q. Did he tell you why he had decitned your offer to 15 give him his job back?
16 A. I don't remember.
I? Q. What brought up-- or, who, to yeur recollection, 18 brought another job offer in another location? W+s there
'19 some indication that you thought he would accept a job '
20 somewhere else?
A.
21 yeah, but I can't remember-the conversations. I 22 had an indication that he didn't want to go back to Comanche l 23 Peak but he might want employment somewhere else.
24 Q. And what did you tell him about employment t
1 25 elsewhere?
\
EXHIBIT-l l
G SE EL 4-89~998
, PAGE_ A9 OF kY PAG
30-1 A. I can't remember what?I!said, but-I always say, l "I'll check on it." I never make any promises on_the site.
1 3 Q. You said you_did subsequently make him an offer i 4 elsewhere. Do you recall how you did that or--
1 5 HR. HICKEY: I-don't think that'was his_ testimony.
6 What he said earlier was that he had. talked-about the !
i
? possibility that he- had : considered of fering him a' job 8 somewhere else. I'm not-sure-that he testified-that:he.had ,
9 made an offer to Mr. Mackta~1 to go somewhere else. Pit t 10 maybe you can ask him. H l
11 MS. VAN CLEAVE:L Okay_.
12 BY HS. VAN CLEAVE:
13 Q. Didsyou_make an offer to Mr. Macktal of 4 fob 14 elsewhere?
15 A. I finally-- And I don't remer.ber where this was, 16 --offered hir-- I think this was on the phone. --t o #4y 17 him his back wages and-to find him a job screwbere else.
18 -Q. So you did'nake-such an offer =. !
-l
'19 A. Yes. l 1
20 Q. By telephone. And this was after the April--
21 A. To the best of my recollection, it was after--
22 Was it April 6th?
23 -Q. The date I have is April the 12th.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Again, you know, these dates could be-- l l
ooitBn l CASEND. 4- 89-0 08 pAos 3 0 _OF MP -PAGE(S) 1
.- , . -- - .. . . - - - . ~ = . . . - . - . . - - - . - . . . - - - - -
l l
l 31 1 A. Yeah. Whenever it was.
2 Q. --a day or two--
3 A. The best of my recollection, it was after that 4 second meeting or third meeting, whichever it was.
5 O. But you did'make him an offer of back pay and a 6 job elsewhere. Do you recall if there was any specific 7 location that you offered to him?
8 A. I don't recall whether I did or'not.
9 O. What was his response?
10 A. He said he'd check on it. And then he-- And sone 11 of these times-- It all gets confusing. Just like that 12 ene, whether he said-he wouldn't take that ene or whe'.her
~'
13 <omebody reported back that Billle Garde or some of his
/
\ 14 lawyers told us he didn't want-it.
15 Sometimes he'd call back, and sometimes we'd get--
16 I'd get word through his-- through whatever chain he was 17 in.
18 Q. Uh-huh.
'19 A. 'But I got word back that he didn't. Either he 20 called me or I was informed.that he did not want to do that.
21 .
Q. So, it's possible that this declination, either 22 the first declination'or'the second declination, could have 23 come through his lawyers or.through some other--
24 A. Yeah. It's my' recollection that the first 25 turndown of the job at_ Comanche peak, that he called back, t
EY.2.hdR pSE NO. 4-89-008 PAGED 0Fy JAGE(S)
.-.. . . _ .- . __ .-. - . ~.
l 32 '
1 But I can't-- That's the best of my recollectien.
2- Q. And I bel.ieve you've already said, correct me if 3 I'm wrong, that he did not give you a reason--
4 A. Not that I remember.-
5 Q. --that you recall.
6 Now, back to the meeting in Stephenville, what 7 type.of indication, if any, old Mr. Maektal give yat as to-8 what he wanted? You know, you've had nunerous ccnve-aations-9 and at least-two meetings. I mean, he must have wanted 10 something.
11 A. Well, obviously, I was-wrong, but I rea!!y kept 12 meeting with him because I thought he1really want +d: tc.put I' 13 all this behind him and go back to work sereshere. I
- 4 thought he was t ired of lawyers. :That's what star' ?d the 15 whole thing.
16 Q. But you made, te your recol'ect ion, at: '. e a s t two
'? offers to him which he or his attorneys declinad.
18 A. That's right.
Q. When you telephoned--- I believe you said you telephoned him to make this other offer-to him and he would -
get back to you. Did--he call-you back? Do you recall 22 whether or not he--
23- A. That's-- I recollect more firmly that he called 24 rejecting this one [ indicating) than I do that he was the 25 one that called rejecting the back pay and the-- and a job EXHIBIT 9 l PAGE M OF D PAGE(S) l cast n 4-89-008 i
(, _ . _ . . ., _ . . _ _ - _ . . . - - -- -- --. , .
133
-1 somewhere else.
1 Q. Do you have anything in writing regarding that 3 other offer.of back pay-and a job elsewhere?
4 'A. I don't think we had-that. I think that-was'by 5 phone.
6 Q. So, then your recollection is-- [
7 A. We'll check it.
8 Q. --that this.may have been an offer from you to 9 him--
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. --verbally?
12 A. Yeah, it was an offer verbally from me. That.
13 offer was--
(~'
k 14 Q. Well,-this is a letter,-I-guess, confirming some 15 type of verbal offer.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. So I wondered if you had another' let ter confirming 18 this other offer.
'19 A. No, I don't-- To the best of my recollection, we 20 didn't confirm that one.
21 .
Q. That second offer. All right.
22 A. In the-- You know this better than I. In the 23 nuclear process, you've got to confirm-- you know, you've 24 got to document everything. so, we documented that we had 25 offered him a job back-at Comanche Peak. Because we had il l
r1 l
EXHlBIT
_g g PAGE__ 3 3 0F_ O - PAGE
, .s q
i
-l
-]
34 1
nothing to hide anyhow.
l 1
-2 over here, I_ felt it was sort: of outside of
-j 3 Comanche peak. It was just we were offering'him back--
- )l 4 That was wrong thinking because we were offeringjhim back-5 pay.
6 Q. That 's what11 was about to say: Wouldn't that be 7 in settlement of his--
8 A. That's right. But 1-- But~best of my 9 recollection, we did not. We'll look in the-files and see, i 10 Q. So, would that not have been- - That wasigoing-tor i 11 be my next question. By paying him back pay:and/or' offering 12 him a job elsewhere, would that-not have been effective-f 13 -settlement-of-his Section-210 suit?
- \s '
14 A. That definitely was. In other words, yes. And I 15 tide this on the phone, "We'll cifer-youla jcb screwhere 16 else, and we offer you your back pay. But that's ;
17 eenditional upon you dropp.ing your labor"-- See, these were- 6 18 ~ labor charges he had,1not safety charges, t
'19 Q. I understand. .
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. That's what-I said, the section 210 Dot suit.
22 A. I don't understand all these--
23 Q. I don't either, t
24 A. --210s and all these things.
25 You're-- That's correct.-
I r
EXHIBIT -
gst p. 4-89-008 PAGE 3N OF N PAGE(S)
15 j i O. The Det suit was filed under section 210 cf the l 2 Energy Reorganization Act. So, in settlement of his suit, l j
3 you effered him beak pay and a job elsewhere.
4 Did you place-- other than telling him that he 5 had to drop that suit, did you place any other conditions on '
6 his acceptance of your offer?
7 A. No. <
B Q. Did you tell him or ask him to dencunee, fire, er 9 in any way sever his relat ions with C AP?
10 A. Not to my recollection. But settlir.g - I mean,-
ti dropp;ng his charges Was. I don't know what he had GAP f$r
\
12 then.
13 s
Q. Do you recall making any spectite mention of GAP 14 er Hs. Garde or any of the other atterneys, Vr. re : St a ri? !
15 don't know who else might have--
16 A. I really don't.
17 Q. represented him.
18 A. I don't recall anything like that. I'm always 19 making remarks about lawyers, but I don't r'ecall anything in 20 this case.
21 Q. Any other conditions that you recall placing on 22 him? Did you give him a deadline? This letter here for the 23 initial offer gives a seven-day deadline to respond. Do you 24 remember if you gave him a deadline in responding to that 25 second offer?
r EXHlBIT PAGE N OF k PAGE(S) cAstH0. 4-89-008-
i i 36 1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Would you have mentioned anything about the i
3 deposition? It was my understanding that he was scheduled i 4 togiveadepositioninhisDepartmentofLaborsuitshortly j 5 after the meeting you had in stephenville and the phone 6 conversation to which you're referring.- Did you mention his 7 deposition or anything about that?- .
l i 8 A. I don't remember, but I could have'because it 1
9 was - You know, that was an offer to settle that suit.
10 Q. Is it possible then that you ment ioned t o him that 11 he would have to accept this offer, if he was goin; to 12 accept it, before he' made his deresition to the Iv.nartr e,;
13 of Leber?
14 MR. HICKEY: Well,_you're not-asking h;m to 15 speculate about that meeting. You're asking if he-bas 47.y 16 -recollection of making such a--
17 A. I don't. I really-- I don't re. member t ha t .
18 Q, You don't remember making _such an offer, or ycu
'19 don't remember mentioning the deposition? Or both?
20 MR HICKrY: Well, he testified--
21 A. Yeah, I made the' offer..
1 22 MR. HICKEY: --he made the of f er.-
33 A. (Continuing) I don't remember the conversation 24 about the deposition.
25 7 So, to the best of your recollect ion, if. I r
EXHIBIT =
CASE tt0, 4-89-0 08 PAGEM OF1PAGE(S)
l i
- 37 i understand you, the only thing you mentioned to him was 1
2 dropping his Department of Labor suit as a condition of 3 accepting this second offer, is that accurate?
4 A. Yes.
I 5 Q. Did you mention to him anything about testifying 4
6 either before the Atomic Safety Licensing Board or the NRC 7 or testifying on behalf of any of the intervenors? Do you 8 recall if that was a topic of any conversation with Mr.
9 Macktal?
10 A. No, I don't remember that. No.
11 Q. Okay. If Mr. Macktal states that you told him 12 that you did not want him to testify befcre the At;nic I 13 Safety Licensing Board as a condition of this offer, de you 14 recall whether or not that statement might be true?
15 A. I don't recall that. I made an offer to settle a 16 labor case, and I just don't remember ar.y ect.versatien at:st 17 all this other.
1B Q. Did you feel that Mr. Macktal's concerns-- By
'19 that time, did you feel that Mr. Macktal's concerns had sore 20 merit?
21 A. The safety concerns or the harassment concerns?
22 Q. Either one.
23 A. Anything he had said or anything he'd taken to 24 safe Team-had been checked out, and I felt that none of
- 25 those concerns were valid.
EXHIBIT _ -
k~ bg 0 0B PAGE_3'7 OF N h PAGE IAS.E NO. . . . . .
1
, . . - . - - - - . - _ . _ , . . . . , . . , . , , , , , - - . . . . . , . , , _ . , _ , _ _ - - , , . , , . , . , , - ~ , . , , , .n.n,-,,.~,.. !
f l
38 l t And the harassment concerns, I didn't thir,k were l
j 2 valid. But again, I was leaning over backwards to try to be 3 fair. I
.! l 3 4 Q. Since he or his attorney on his behalf had 5 apparently declined the first offer, why did you make the 1 6 second offer?
I 7 A. Again, trying to be f air to the guy.
8 Q. Did you have any other motives in making him that-9 offer, anything you wanted covered up?
10 A. No-- No way-- No. I don't cover up things in ny 11 life.
Q, 12 How much money do you recall-- I den't knew if 4
] f 13 you do or not. Do you recall how much money was involved in
- 14 that back-pay offer?
15 A. No, I don't. We can-- somebcdy figured it for l'
16 e. e . We can get that.
17 Q. What about his attorneys? Did you rake any kind
'8 of an offer to settle his legal _ fees? It's my understanding
'19 that he had quite a bit of money tied up in. legal fees.
20 A. I don't remember that. I'm saying I don't 21 ' remember one way or the other.
22 Q. I understand.
23 You don't remember.whether you made an offer to
- 24 cover his legal fees.
j 25 A. No. ,
n EXHlBIT L i PAGE 33 OF O PAGE(S)
(Jat h0. 4- 89-0 08-
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I 39 1 1 Q. He told you, if I understand your testimony, that 2 he would get back to you. Do you recall if you spoke with 3 Mr. Hacktal af ter that conversation?
4 A. That's the one that's really foggy. I don't i
5 remember whether he specifically got back to me or I had i
6 heard-- our lewyers heard through the channels that he ,
~
'l deelined that.
B Q. Is there anything in writing anywhere at Brown &
9 Foot or your lawyer's offices or anywhere declining that 10 offer?
11 A. I don't know. Because af ter I heard about that. I 12 really dr. pped it personally cornpletely. All the rest of 13 it, the lawyers took care of.
k' 14 Q. So then, your testimony is that, at that poi nt -
15 either that conversation where you said you telephoned him 16 and made the ef f er or i f there was another phone call by Mr.
17 Macktal to you, at that point, did you have any fur
- her 18 contact with Mr. Macktal, to your recollection?
i
'19 A. No. I really can't remember any further contacts 20 with him. Does he claim we did?
21 Q. [ Shaking head. )
22 A. Okay. The next time I saw him was at this hearing 23 in Washington several weeks ago. Months ago, I guess, now.
24 Q. That was months ago at this point.
25 A.
yeah, that's right.
exot 3 Cf _OF_ WPAGE(S)
1 3
- 40 i 1 Q. yeah, I was at those hearings myself. !
2 A. Oh, were you? ,
3 Q. Didn't know this was going to take six months -
4 to--
5 A. I didn't either, 6 Q. --to settle.
7 Did you speak with him at-those hearings?
8 A. I remember trying to, and I think I did. But we .
9 wers [ gesturing). I just said, " Hey, Joe," or se.ething
'O like that. Because I still like the guy. I don't knew why.
11 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Macktal. at any time, that 12 you believed that Brewn & Root would lese *.he Departnent -f 13 Labor case should it come to - I don't know what they cal!
\
14 It. !-guess, a hearing.
15 A. Not to my recollection.
16 Q. you don't recall' telling him that?
17 A. I normally wouldn't say anything like i t.at , a..d 1 18 don't renember saying anything either.
-19 Q. Do you remember saying anything to him that he 20 might get the impression that he had a good chance of 21 winning his sult?
22 A. No, I didn't. I don't recall anything like that.
23 Q. I want to reiterate a couple of final points here.
24 I realize I've already asked these in other words.
25 A. That's all right. I want.you to be satisfied.
i g g, 4 89-008 PAGE 40 0F D PAGE(S)
i 41 l t Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Hacktal that, either as a f 2 condition of accepting any of these offers or for any--
l 3 during any other conversation, that you did not want Mr. i 4 Macktal to testify before the ASLB, Atomic Safety Licensing 5 Board, before the NRC, or have any further dealings with 6 CASE, GAP, or any of the other intervenors?
7 A. I don't remember a statement like that.
8 Q. Did anyone else, either an employee of Brown &
9 Root or an employee of Texas Utilities, meet with Mr.
10 Macktal, to your knowledge and at your request. concerning il settling his case? This is other than yeur lawyers and--
12 A. Yeah, I was going to say--
13 Q. Other than your lawyers. You know, like anyone in 14 your employ or anyone that you might have asked to meet with 15 Mr. Macktal regarding his case.
16 A. I was trying-- I don't re erber that. Eut in 17 that first deal, I could have told him, "Why don't yeu go 18 back and talk to our personnel people? Why don't you do
'19 this?" But I don't remem er that. I'm just leaning over 20 backwards again. Get me in trouble.
21 Q. In fact, Mr. Macktal has said that you did suggest 22 something to the personnel manager or something.
23 A. You know, I--
24 Q. Is this your standard kind of thing?
25 A. Yeah, that's my standard thing. That's correct.
I m
EXHlBRL EASE N0. 4-89-0 08 PAGEJ / _OFf b PAG
l H i
1 42 l
i 1 Q. But you don't have any specific recollection of 1
l 2 this applying--
i 3 A. No.
4 Q. --exactly to Mr. Macktal. Just that this is your i 1 5 usual operation. All right. ;
6 A. This whole thing is ny usual operation. Nobody
? ever believes it, but it is.
{ B Q. Oh, I don't know. I heard you talk before the 3 9 senate. I heard your testimony. You didn't have much i
l 10 anything good to say about attorneys, did you?
11 A. No. ! guess you were there when I told them:
i 12 "Why don't you just go ahead and beat on-me? I get paid for 13 that, and you've got to beat on somebody."
\. -
14 Q. Okay. Did you have anything to do with the final 15 settlement that was arrived at to provide Mr. Maektal uith ..
16 Ibelieveitwasl25,00df-no,(f15,00fI'msorry,andhis 17 attorneyE(k20,0h $o settle his Department of Labor case?
18 Did you have any specific input into that settlement?
'19 A. No.
20 Q. you're aware, of course, that that settlement has 21 created some consternation.
22 A. Yes. Oh, after-- No, that's-- After all this, 23 it's like all these other things. you know, we settle cases 24 around here. We're probably settling five cases today.
25 You've got to stand in line to sue Brown.& Root. And I-M EXHlBR i pg n. 4-89-008 [c,768d PAGE R0F O PAGE(S)
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l 43 1 don't go into the details of things once I've done all I can j
2 do to settle them.
3 Q. Did you feel like you'd done everything you could I
4 do at that point?
5 A. I really thought I'd done more than I needed to ,
6 do. To satisfy my mind that we'd treated the guy fairly.
7 Q. And that was your motivation behind the 8 conversations with Hr. Macktal, I believe you said.
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. The language that appears in the settlement 11 agreement, that's also got everyone kind of upset. Do you 12 recall who or do you know who put that language i n the
[ 13 settlement agreement?
14 A. No. I heard about that when I was getting ready 15 for the hearings up there.
16 Q. Was that the first you'd heard of it?
17 A. That specifie language, yeah.
1B Q. The specific language saying that he would not
'19 testify before the ASLB unless he was subpoenaed, and if he 20 was subpoenaed, he would--
21 A. Well, I don't know whether it was just right at 22 the hearings, but I didn't hear about i t-- When did he sign 23 that settlement?
24 Q. Sometime around Christmas '86 or New Year's '87.
25 I can't remember the exact day. Somewhere around there.
1 y
EXHIBIT _
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- CMt NO. 4-89-008 DAGE %OF._% _PAGE(S
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44 1 A. I may have heard about it six months before the 2 hearings or something, but I didn't know-- I've forgotten 3 Macktal.
4 Q. All right. so, you were not-- Your testimony is 5 that you were not responsible for putting that language in 6 there, and you're not familiar with how that occurred; is 7 that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 HS. VAN CLEAVE: I don't have any further 10 questions.
11 MR. HICKEY: Can I just clarify one point?
12 HS. VAN CLEAVE: please.
(~ 13 MR. HICKEY: Did you mention that Nr. Macktal's S- 14 recollection was that the meeting at the motel in 15 Stephenville was on April 12th?
16 HS. VAN CLEAVE: Yes.
17 HR. HICKEY: Okay. Because Mr. Austin's calendar 18 reflects April 5, which is a--
'19 THE WITNESS: He just missed one saturday. !
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Well, it's exactly a week, isn't 21 it?
22 I would like to have on the record that you have 23 agreed to look and see what type of records Brown & Root 24 might have available concerning the actual meetings that, 25 took place between yourself and Mr. Macktal and any t
l EXHtBIT gg h gg .g gg PAGE N OF ' b PAGE(S)
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t 45 1 documentation on the job offers or back-pay offers or any 2 other offers made to Mr. Hacktal. Any records that you 3 might have regarding these meetings, personal notes or I
4 anything like that.
5 THE WITNESS: You got a--
6 MR. HICKEY: I've got the items.
7 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay.
8 Hr. Austin, have I or any - threater.ed you in any 9 manner or offered you any rewards in return for this 10 statement?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Have you given this statetent r~ - 13 freely and voluntarily?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 HS. VAN CLEAVE: Is there anything farther you 16 care to add fcr the record?
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Okay, thank you very much.
'19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. .
20 MS. VAN CLEAVE: Off the record.
21 (Whereupon, at 11:58 a.m., the statement of T.
22 LOUIS AUSTIN was concluded.)
23 ...
24 4
25 EXHlBI --
(ASE NO. 4- 89-0.08 PAGE_ Nb OF 4h PAGE(
I 46-l :
i 2 PEpORTE M CERTIFICATE I
3 4 I hereby certify that the. proceedings and sworn 1
i 5 statement herein contained are fully contained in the notes l
6 and tapes of the sworn statement of T. LOUIS AUSTIN, JR.,
7 October 23, 1989, before the NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION-8 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS and that this is a true and correct 9 transcript of the same.
10 l
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, Al x&<L- Asalsv SANDR A HARCE!1. Reporter 12 I
- 13 14 15 16 1?
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EXHlBIT PAGE_$ b OF Wb PAGE(S cut W. .+ - 6 y - 0 0 8 - c
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l i
4 REPORT OF INTERYlEW
- WITH l
DAN M. BERK 0VITZ
- DERK0VIT2 was interviewed by telephone on July 24 Comission (NRC) Investigator Virginia Van Cleave.,1989, by Nuclear BERK 0VITZ, assistantRegulatory counsel to the Comittee on Environment and Public Works for the United States Senate, st6ted that last Thursday, (July 20,1989), Billie GARDE, fomerly an attorneywiththeGovernmentAccountabilityFroject(GAP),wasrelievedofher attorney / client privileges regarding Joseph J. MACKTAL by the Senate comittee. Following this Senate committee decision, GARDE provided BERK 0VITZ with what she represented to be all documents concerning her previous attorney / client relationship with MACKTAL. Although BERK 0VIT2 stated he was uncertain if the attorney /citent privilege waiver extended to those outside the Senate, he said he would send Investigator Van Cleave copies of his notes taken during his discussion with GARDE on July 20, 1989.
CERKOVIT2 stated that the only docur4nt regarding MACKTAL's dealings with Louis AUSTIN, president of Brown & Foot (B&R), provided by GARDE was a chronology prepared by MACKTAL which BERKOVITZ aad previously provided to Investigator Van Cleave. BERKOVITZ stated that GARDE told him that MACKTAL initiated contact with and preferred to deal directly with AUSTIN concerning his suit against B&R pending before the Department of Labor (DOL). MACKTAL allegedly told GARDE there were several meetings and telephone conversations between himself and AUSTIN. GARDE stated that MACKTAL did not initially tell s her about these meetings, which she found out about when she reviewed his affidavit prepared for the DOL hearing. At that time, she stated she told MACKTAL to tell her everything concerning his dealings with B&R officials. As a result, he prepared the aforementioned chronology. GARDE further stated, according to 3ERK0YlT2, that MACKTAL had never told her that AUSTlN either threattned him or forbade him to testify before the NPC cr any other bocy rtviewing ratters at Cetznche Feat Stean Electric Station (CPSES). BERKMITZ n stated that GARDE said the onl e AUSTlh requested be [MACKTAL) y condition MACKTAL mentiored publicly renounce GAP as his attorneys. to her was that G'
? !?
According to BERK 0VIT2, GARDE stated that approximately 6 weeks prior to the &9 scheduled DOL hearing she began to lose fait 1 in MACKTAL and his credibility. 63 She stated she was aware that the law firm representing 2&R would be M 8V questioning MACKTAL about his demands for money from AUSTIN and she was uneasy 2 Ijg about this issue. MACKTAL told her that at one meeting with AUSTIN, an M attorney was .also present who carried a briefcase full-of money. GARDE told e y$'
BERK 0VITZ she found that contention of MACKTAl.'s-to be unlikely. GARDE stated ie that MACKTAL, to her knowledge, had told the NRC of all his concerns )rior to ;5g settlement of the DOL case. She denied that she had ever told MACKTA. to ;U withhold any safety concerns from the NRC and further stated that she did not believe that MACKTAL had a additional 1 itimate safe erns regarding JJ41[
yj d a cs .
Ei & N mGARDE stated that sh i
i at CKTAL did not have a valid legal or factual case agairat B&R, so she recomended to Case No. 4 89-008 1 Exhibit I
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MACKTAL that he settle the case as soon as possible. She stated that she telieved E&R was willirg to settle mply btcause it was less expensive to them in the long run to pay MACKTA 35,00phantoengageinextendedlegal i action.
BERK 0VITZ stated that DOL ruled last week on the p0L12Z1 case, which also involved CPSES that the clause in his agreement prohibiting him from providing volun,tary testimony at hearings regarding CPSES was unenforceable and contrary to public policy. 00L also intimated that, should they become i
aware of any other such agreements, they would also be considered a unenforceable. BERr0VITZ stated that the entire matter of these types of settlementagreementswasreferredtotheDepartmentofJustice(00J),buthe was unaware of what action, if cny, DOJ had taken on this cese. He stated that it was possible that D0J was waiting final outcome of the NRC investig6 tion of the MACKTAL/AUST!N contacts.
This report prepared from investigator's notes' dated July 24, 1989..
m s6 4 Virgin ~iaYb' leave, Investigator Office of Investigations Field Office, Rly
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Case No. 4-89-008 2 Cxhibit-E69? 2 D
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Q E.;:~:. AIRCRAFT USE REPORT sNltaVCil0NS Vit a on St Nion utogan or yg,No omog > to Copp6tte tN ACCORDAN:t witM Dikt CtiONI ON 88vthSt liDt AND Sveurt to TMt 088sct of TMt Cottonatt SICattAmy (1) FuoMt si.e o.w athi' ..
oSt . DATt point of onioiN T. Louis Aus_ tin, Jr. March 31, 1986 Houston, Texas eggtiNatiON INitautpiAtt Stops Dallas, Texas Cleburne. Texas ete.arva toatt attVnN cAtt ' attvaN tiwa March 31,1986 !'oleAatvat 1230 tiut March 31,1986 !1900 Ara:aart comorr Ame c.ai , mesp.a ces., at swee No em trpe Citation 192G ~
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FVLLY 04$CatDL BuliNLES Pv a Post 07 t Air Halliburton meeting Comanche Peak meeting.
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NaWE title COMP ANY Naut i T. Louis Austin, Jr. . President Brown & Root, Inc.
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MQ11 Datt PolNT OF Omi0lN T. Louis Austin, Jr. April 5. 1986 et $tiNatioN Houston. Texas iNitewtDIATE STOPS Stephenville, Texas None DEPARTUmgDatt Mt MitymN C ATE April 5,1986 !'Otrantyat 1000 t: April 5, 1986 A>mena,T
!' 1600 AtTURN TlWE co. ar A..it c.ai., me. a C.ai., aC simee No e ii t ,p. I Citation 192G 001 1 001 ! 4170 I -I l in omenArt usans cattoomitei,3 ca.c.e.
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FULLY OttCnist 8vliNE $$ PumPOSE 08 Tm+.
Attending meeting regarding Comanche Peak project. l (Si P&&4t N0tm utt1No NAVE titLt COM.ANv Na ut -
t T. L.ouis Austin. Jr. .
President- Brown & Root, Inc.
- Glen Magnuson Attorney Brown & Root, Inc.
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1 REPORT OT INTERYlEW
- WITH GLEN G. MAGNUSON, JR.
)
MGNUSON was interviewed on October 23 1989 at his office at One Houston l Place, Houston, Texas, telephone (713)bC 33fl, by Nuclear Regulatory l Comission (NRC) Investigator Virginia Van Cleave. Also present during the interview was J. Patrick HICKEY, attorney for Shaw, Pittman, Potts, and Trowbridge, Washington, DC, representing Brown 8 Root (B&R).
IN"r.SilGATOR'S NOTE: According to T.- Louis AUSTIN, Chairserson of B&R anc former president of BAR MAGNUSON was emp ed with tae Office of the General Counsel at BAR for several ars, i
MAGNUSON stated that he was erployed as an associate general counsel for B&R from March 1960 until July 1986. at that time, he lef t B&R's ecployrent to accept another position He stated which hethat,lso' a subsequently lefHet. is
- now self enaloyed as an attorney. M NUSON recalled being present at a meetin witi AUSTIN and a forrier B&R Coranche Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES enployee, Joseph J. MACKTAL, Jr. sometime in the spring of 1986.
MAGNUSON recalled that the teeting took place on a Saturday morning in a motel room sonewhere in central Texas. He stated that he and AUSilN specifically 4 flew to the Cleburne airport on a B&R corprate plane to meet MACKTAL. -He was-unable to recall the nama of the motel where the room was rented or the name
- I of the town in which the motel was located. He said he was present at.
( AUSTIN's request as B&R's counsel and as a ' secretary" to record MCKTAL's staterent because he had responsibility 'or nuclear utters at B&R. MGNUSON stated that he took extensive notes during this meeting which he said he dated, but he left all notes and work products associated with B&R at the B&R offices wher, he left the corpany's erployr.ent.
MGNUSON recalled that the reeting took approxintely 2 to 3 hours3.472222e-5 days <br />8.333333e-4 hours <br />4.960317e-6 weeks <br />1.1415e-6 months <br /> and
. ' concerned MCKTAL's coeplaints reg:rdt a series of occurrences or- problems g '
l durin his employment at CPSES. MACKT told AUSTIN he believed that B&R =
shoul look into the N tter. MAGNUSON claired he was unable to recall anythin about MACKTAL's specific concerns without reviewing his notes.-
E; 2
l MGNUSO stated he had so little recollection of the utter that he could no recall if MCKTAL was still employed at CPSES at the time of.the interview.
M*
Bbi He said he had a vague recollection that MACKTAL was an electrician and j believed that McKTAL had filed a coeplaint with the Department of Labor u NN I
(DOL)
L CPSES, , butwhich that was led him to the conclusion speculation that McKTAL was no longer erployed at :j p on his part.
- --g L, a
- a MAGNUSON stated that this meeting was the only time he ever talked to MACKTAL 3 f, 8; or had a dealin s with McKTAL. He did not recall that McKTAL utilized e M
notes, an he bel eyed that McKTAL provided the information to AUSTIN from '
- memory. To his knowled MCKTAL did not t") m . or 'ecord the meetin dQ Ead g L
He said that MACKTAL sa ,he had referreOorne of the mat.ers to CPSES' se'g.e y i team but had not referred all his conceru to tum. MGNUSON stated he could ~ "2 y g -
not recall what MACKTAL had or had not repo-tso to saft team nor could he.
l 1 recall MACKTAL's stating why he did not r rt .11 his *oncerns to safe team.
l, He did reca11'that AUST,N questioned MACK';/ %srding his reporting to safe p l
ll .
Case No. 4 89 008 1 gg b
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team and the resolution of his concerns. However, MGNUSON stated he had nu recollection of any resolution of MACKTAL's concerns. He stated that, at that 1 time, he had already planned to leave B&R's employrent, and in addition, he spent the month of June 1986 in Libya. Consequently, he had little or nothing to do with MCKTAL's concerns.
MAGNUSON remembered that MCKTAL had AUSTIN's home telephone nurber and had contacted AUSTIN at home and asked to reet with him. MGNUSON stated that there was nothing unsual or clandestine about this meeting. He said that AUSTIN is 4 " direct, no nonsense, and hancs on' individual who of ten treated employees or fomer employees in this manner. AUSTIN's policy was to reet with any em>1oyee who wished to reet with him. MAGNUSON said AUSTIN was Yery concerned a >out the safety at CPSES and insisted that MACKTAL tell hire about every problem or potential problem relating to safety at the plant so B&R could check into them. MGNUSON did not believe there was any discussion in his presence about reinstatement of MCKTAL's position or front pay or back pay or any other payrent to MCKTAL from B&R. During this meeting at the motel, MACKTAL and AUSTIN did not have private discussions without MAGNUS 0N's presence. MAGNUSON did not recall any discussion at this meeting regarding HACKTAL's DOL suit or any harassrent and intimidation of MACKTAL while he was employed at CPSES.
MAGNUSON recalled that his usual contact at Texas Utilities (TV) was the TU licensin Consequently, he believed he provided MACKTAL'g attorney,toNick s infomation REYNOLOS.
REYNOLDS either by tele He said he could not recall whether he put MACKTAL' phone in s concerns or writing by memorandum.
in this t ,
manner. He said that if there was such a remo, it would be present at the BAR b- offices. Additionally, MAGNUSON said he might have verbally discussed MACKTAL's concerns with B&R's CPSES project manager at the time Doug FRANKUM.
However, if he discussed them with F MNKUM, it would not have been in writing.
MAGNUSON reiterated that his recollection of the events over 31/2 years ago was very sketchy but since he took detailed notes, every subject discussed during the meeting would be reflected in those notes. He was unabic to provide any additional infort.ation to the investigator regarding this natter.
INVEST! GATOR'S NOTE: HICKEY stated B&R had located MGNUSON's notes and had also located a r.eno from MGNUSON to REYNOLOS regarding the reeting between AUSTIN and MACKTAL. However, HICKEY refused to let the investigator review these notes or the memo and stated that his position was that the notes and the rero between two attorneys were privileged on the basis of attorncy/ client privilege.
This report prepared from investigator's notes dated October 23, 1989.
FA k + M1")
Ylrginia Van Cleave, Investigator j Office of Investigations field Office, AlY i (
Case No. 4-89 008 2 Exhibit / 0 Page d oT~P-
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