ML20127K701
| ML20127K701 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Harris  |
| Issue date: | 06/24/1985 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#385-627 OL, NUDOCS 8506270541 | |
| Download: ML20127K701 (51) | |
Text
-
O&GWAi nv UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION f
IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO: 50-400 OL CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY and NORTH CAROLINA COMPANY MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY (Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant) Evidentiary Hearing LIMITED APPEARANCES SESSION O
v LOCATION: APEX, NORTH CAROLINA PAGES: 7943 - 7995 DATE: MONDAY, JUNE 24, 1985 1
/b751o/779.6/olAEb*"d?~#b 7 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
O Official Reporters 444 N' orth Capitol Street 23725.1 85062705418506 ADOCK 0500GOO \Vashington, D.C. 20001 PDR T (202) 347-3700 NATIONWICE COVERACE
Jo2 Walch 7943 i
l 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION g... 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD
(, '
4 5 -----------------X 6 In the matter of: : Docket No. 50-400 OL l
- i 7 CAROLINA POhER & LIGHT COMPANY :
and NORTH CAROLINA COMPANY :
8 MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY :
9 (Shearon Harris Nuclear Power : ,
Plant) Evidentiary Hearing :
10 :
__________~~~~~~~X 11 12 Ramade Inn
(- Intersate 55 U.S. 1 South
/T 13
(_/ Apex, North Carolina 27502 14 Monday, June 24, 1985 15 LIMITED APPEARANCES 16 The heuring in the above-entitled matter 17 convened, pursuant to recess, at 8:03 p.m.,
1B BEFORE:
19 JAMES L. KELLEY, Esq, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 20 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555 21
., GLENN O. BRIGHT, Member 22 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Nuclear Regulatory Commission 23 Washington, D. C. 20555 24 JAMES H. CARPENTER, Member m.F.oerm neoorms, inc. , Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 25 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555 k .
Joe Walch 7944 {
l I APPEARANCES:
.s
! I 2 On behalf of the Applicants' l 3 THOMAS A. BAXTER, Esq.
C.-
DELISSA A. RIDGWAY, Esq.
4 Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 1800 M Street, N. W.
5 Washington, D. C., 20036 6 DALE E. HOLLAR, Esq.
Associate General Counsel 7 Carolina Power & Light Company .
i P. O. Box 1551 8 Raleigh, North Carolina 27602 9 On behalf of the NRC Staff: ,
10 CHARLES A. BARTH, Esq.
JANICE E. MOORE, Esq.
11 Office of Executive Legal Director U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 12 Washington, D. C., 20555
- h 13 BRADLEY' JONES, Esq.
Region II '
14 Nuclear Regulatory Commission 15 On behalf of FEMA:
16 STEVEN M. ROCHLIS, Esq.
Atlanta Regional Office I7 Suite 700 1371 Peachtree Street, N.E.
18 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 19 On behalf of the Interveners:
20 MR. WELLS EDDLEMAN, pro se, 718-A Iredell Street 21 Durham, North Carolina 27705
- 22 DANIEL F. READ, President CHANGE /ELP 23 5707 Waycross Street
(^ Raleigh, North Carolina 27606 ce-recea r,eoonen, Inc.
JOHN D. RUNKLE, Esq.
25 Environmental Consultant P. O. Box 4135 !
Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27514 l
i.
L
, .7944-A Su2Walsh 1 CONTENTS TO1 2 STATEMENTS 'PA0E 3
Mayor Gerald Holleman 7947 4
Freddie Stuart 7948-5
--Ruth Hudgins 7950
-6 Carl Banks 7953 7
Robert E. Privette 7955 ;_
8 . I Bonnie Yeargan 7956 1.
9 !
Billy: Furlough 7958 !
10 Hollis Smith 7958 l 11 Georgia Helmer 7966 ;
12 .
Jane Sharp- 7969 .
I Donna Davidson 7973
-14 !
Ch'ristopher Rogers 7976 !
15 Ruth Tunstall 7980 16 Michael W. Spohn 7988
'17 18 19 20 21 22 t
23 p
~
24 r 44-iderst Rgwnm, ltw. l 25 l
7945 Sim -l j PROCEEDINGS 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Good evening, ladies and
~
3 gentlemen.
4 Welcome to the limited appearance session that 5 this Atomic Safety and Licensing Board is conducting this 6 evening in connection with the licensing proceeding that 7 we are also conducting with respect to the Shearon Harris 8 facility.
9 Let me introduce first the Board. My name 10 is James Kelley, and I am Chairman of theBoard. On my 11 right is Judge Glen Bright and on my lef t is Judge James 12 Carpenter.
_ 13 We have at that table immediately in front of 14 me some representatives of the staff, the NRC staff and 15 the Federal Emergency Mangement Agency, 16 Mr. Wells Eddleman, one of the intervenors, 17 is just walking over to sit down.
18 And we have some representatives from CP&L 19 ,here in the audience I believe.
20 This is an' opportunity, as I think you know, 21 for interested members of the public to express their 22 opinions or concerns that they may have about the Shearon 23 Harris facility. It happens that the Board is now focusing 24 on the adequacy of the emergency plans and we are sitting A errl Reporters, Inc.
25 tonight in Apex I believe within the 10 mile emergency
7946 Sim 15-2 I planning zone.
O g 2 We are particularly interes ted in hearing from 3 you any particular information you may have that bears on 4 emergency planning. If you happen to have some information 5 you think might improve the plans, we would be happy to hear 6 that. ,
7 The ground rules for our proceeding this evening 8 are really pretty simple. You are invited, any of you, to 9 submit written statements of any length for inclusion in 10 the record of this part of this part of the proceeding, with Il respect to oral presentations, we have put a sign-up sheet 12 over, by the door. Just a couple of minutes ago I detached 13 page one and brought it over here which contains about Id 15 names I think, and we are going to start sign-up sheet 15 list No. 2 for anyone else who may be coming in and who also 16 wants to be included on the list. But sheet No. 2 is over 17 there by the door and if any of you haven' t had an opportunity 18 to sign up and want to, feel free to do so.
19 We will call the speakers in the order in which 20 they have signed up and we will allocate roughly five minutes 21 per speaker, and that is basically the rules that we go 22 by.
t 23 Let me just add that this is a chance for you 24 AcA.nl it.p nm, tac. to express views in public and provide us with information 25 The information that is given us this evening in this
7947 Sim 15-3 1 limited appearance session is not a part of the record of 2 decision in our formal hearings. The Board's decision on 3 the adequacy of the plans and the issues we are litigating 4 in that_ formal proceeding will be based solely on the record 5 tha t we develop there.
6 So with that as background, I will call the 7 first speaker, who is Mayor Gerald Holleman of Holly Springs.
8 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 9 OF 10 MAYOR GERALD HOLLEMAN 11 MAYOR HOLLEMAN: Good evening, I am Gerald 12 Holleman, the Mayor of Holly Springs. My home and town rw 13 are about four miles northeast of the Shearon Harris plant.
I4 And because of this, we certainly hope there will never be 15 an accident there.
16 I have confidence in the people who run the plant.
17 I believe they will do everything in their power to prevent 18 an accident. But there is always a chance that something 19 could happen, and I am very glad that plans have been made.
20 These plans involve many people that I know and I actually 21 participated in this plan.
22 And I am satisfied that if there was ever an 23 accident that the people participating could handle it, I 24 know the Sheriff's Department, the rescue squads and the fire AcAer;l Reporters, Inc.
25 depmstments, and I am particularly proud of our local fire i
7948 Sim 15-4 j department, and they will do their jobs in the case of an emergency, just like they do in fires and storms and other O
V 2
3 natural disasters. -
4 We want the people of Holly Springs to be safe and secure in their homes. If I had any concerns about the 5
6 plans to protect. our citizens in the event of a nuclear 7
emergency, I would be the first one to tell you. But I think 8 things; are doing quite well, and I have the greatest 9 confidence in the people who run the plant and the people who 10 are making the emergency plans that they are going to work jj fine.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, Mayor Holleman.
o j4 Mr. Freddie Stuart.
15 LIMITED APPEA N E STATEMENT OF 16 FREDDIE STUART 37 MR. STUART: Good evening. I am Fyeddie Stuar#.
18 j9 I am with the Furena Rescue Squad in Fuquay. I also work full 20 time and I also volunteer.
21 I would like to express that if we did have an 22 accident that Fuquay would be called to the nuclear plant and 23 w uld know what to do at any emergency. We have had training 24 in this. So we are not like we just come there and don' t
.rd n. pore.rs, Inc.
25 know what we are doing. We have had it for the last three
. .. _- - - - - -. - . _ - = _ _
r 7949 Sim 15-5 1 or four years, training, and also have personnel that are
_( 2 qualified and also can handle situations.
3 We have members that are dedicated to serving the 4 public, and if anything should happen, I am confident with 5 my personnel and with myself that we would not, repeat, would 6 not leave. We would stay out there and help the public and 7 help the people, but I don't see any future of anything going 8 wrong because I have seen the plans and worked with the 9 safety adviser from Wade County to help set up the plans.
10 Also, dealing with the public we do run across 11 a lot of people who will ask what to do, and there is nothing 12 that we can do but do our job and that is what we are trained 13 to do.
14 So by going by the members of the rescue squad and 15 the chief of the rescue squad, I am confident in assuring 16 you all that we will be there in case of any accidents around 17 the Shearon- Harris plant and we will do all we can to 18 support it.
I9 Thank you.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Stuart.
21 Ruth Hudgins.
22 23 u rti Report.rs, nc.
25
7950 Sim 15-6 1 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT -
k 2 OF 3 RUTH HUDGINS 4 MS. HUDGINS: Good evening.
5 I am a resident of Cary, and I live right outside 6 the 10-mi.le evacuation radius, and I am very concerned about the 7 opening of the Shearon Harris nuclear power plant.
8 I am really concerned about the effects of a 9 radiation leak. I am also concerned about low-level 10 radiation.
II I don ' t believe , and I think a lot of people 12 would back me up, that radiation is going to stop at the -
13 ,10-radius. Iam.ve$yconcernedabout the leaks, especially I4 to our children and to our senior citizens.
15 I am careful with things in my life. You know, 16 my children wear seat belts and I don' t even allow my I7 children to have X-rays by dentists, and I don' t even have 18 a microwave oven. And I think if I am going to be careful I9 about things, I certainly don' t want somebody else putting 20 dangers on me.
2I I also don't feel secure in the fact that CP&L 22 personnel can and will act sensibly and responsibly in the 23 event of a nuclear accident, 24 The emergency drill that I attended and parti-Acgrd Reporters, Inc.
25 cipated in with my son was just one example of the lack of
7951 Sim 15-7 j seriousness that CP&L personnel were willing to take in order 2
t make sure that contaminated people and objects were 3
handled properly.
4 I missed a turn and nobody even made an attempt 5
t try t locate me or find me. I got all the way to Durham 6 and back and nobody ever missed me.
7 I am really concerned about that in an accident.
8 I am really concerned about the fact that someone is going 9 to look after me. I don't think they will and I am going 10 to have to and we are all going to have to be on our own.
jj My other question is what if my car were to 12 break down on the way if I were to be evacuated? I don!t know 13 tha,t any plans have been made to take care of vehicles that O ja break down on the_ highway. ,
15 If the Shearon Harris nuclear power plant has 16 to OPen, I would like to see them to at least meet us 37 half way and have another drill and make sure that things i 18 are taken seriously.
j9 This is a real serious matter with radiation, i
20 to my knowledge, and to me, and I would like to make sure 21 that I am taken care of and that people around me are taken 22 care of.
23 Thank you.
l l
l 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, i Ac r:I n port ri, Inc.
25 Can I just ask you, in the exercise you referred l
l'
7952 Sim 17-8 1 to, were you a participant in it?
{() 2 MS. HUDGINS: yes, in a car.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: I ask for information because I 4 just don't know. Were a lot of people asked to try this 5 way or that way, or what?
6 MS. HUDGINS: You just drove along the highway.
7 The way I missed a turn was there is an officer there and 8 there was a sign there, but it was too close to the exit and 9 I had already passed the e::it b'efore I could make a sdfe 10 turn. And when I exited at the next exit, there wasn't 11 even anyone there to make sure I got back on the right route 12 again.
13 JUDGE KELLEY: Were you supposed to be going to 14 a shelter area, was that the concept?
15 MS. HUDGINS: Yes, a shelter area.
16 JUDGE KELLEY: I might just comment that the 17 exercise you are referring to was in May I guess. I said 18 that we were conducting hearings now on aspects of the plan, 19 and we may or may not get involved in the adequacy of the 20 exercise, but it is still a potential area that we might 21 look at.
22 MS. HUDGINS: Okay. Thank You.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
24 Carl Bank.
Ac tl Reporters, Inc.
25
7953 Sim 15-9 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 2
CARL BANKS MR. BANKS: I am Carl Banks. I live here in 4
Apex. I have been a resident for several years.
Being in the business community in this area I deal quite of ten with Carolina Power and Light personnel.
7 I would like to express my opinion that the management of Carolina Power and Light is very committed to the Shearon 9
Harris plant and their ability to perform the management as 10
);
it relates to the health and safety area.
g I have found their competence to be very, very good, and that they are planning as they go through an -
p 13
~
V exercise, they learn from that exercise and are able to build and strengthen their areas of responsibility for the 15 next exercise. and ultimately and hopefully we will not have g an actual emergency, but I do feel that if such an emergency Were to arise, that CP&L staff would certainly be able to j9 handle that and to organize any emergency activities g DOCessary.
g I also feel that because of their experience in tw ther nuclear plants, they certainly know what the 22 p tentials are and are certainly very, very prepared to 23 handle those.
- ^ " " ' "
As it relates to our local area, our rescue squads
7954 Sim 15-10 1 and fire departments, most of those are volunteer in nature.
2 However, they are very, very committed and I feel they are 3 certainly prepared to handle whatever emergency that might d
face them.
5 Thank you, md Cim 6 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Banks.
Joe fols 7
8 9
10 11 12 , ,
,- 13 ,
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Ac r;l Reporters, Inc.
25
3
~16-1-Joe W. 7955 (Evening) 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Robert Privette? Maybe you can 2 9 1 ve us your last name when you come up.
3 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 4 OF 5 ROBERT E. PRIVETTE 6 MR. PRIVETTE: I am Robert E. Privette.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: Cad you spell it for us?
8 MR. PRIVETTE: P-r-i-y-e-t-t-e. And I am from 9 Zebulon, North Carolina, which is outside of the ten mile 10 emergency area, but we are still concerned with the nuclear 11 plant. ,
12 But we feel at the same time that CP&L, as safety 13 conscious as they are with their other actions, that they 14 are safety minded, and would have all safety precautions 15 covered with the new plant when it opens.
16 I am also involved with the Zebulon Rescue f 17 Squad and the Zebulon Fire Department, and throughout the 18 county, with. the people we have met and dealt with with 19 the rescue squads and fire department, I don',t think I have ;
I 20 met one yet that I think would turn and run if there was an 21 accident at the plant, so I think all of them in the County 22 would pitch in,and help out.
23 And from what I read around the papers and 24 everything for the other two nuclear plants that CP&L w neporwes. inc.
25 operates at Brunswich and South Carolina, they have not had 7
.16-2-Joe W31 - r
- 7956 a . , .
f
/ 1 any problems and the local people seem to be happy with
' i 2 their plant, so I would wholeheartedly recommend that the
') 3 r
-license be granted to(CP&L, and I think they could manage
'the plant once 'it is up and running.
4 j 5 - Thank you.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Privette.
..-sc ]
7 -
WITNESS STANDS ASIDE.
8 a JUDGE KELLEY: BonnieYearhan?
f 9 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT',
10 OF
. . ', 11 BONNIE YEARGAN 12 ..,
' MS. YEARGAN: Good evening. My 'narne is ,
13 Bonnie Yeargan. I am a resident of Wake County. I live r Id '
at Green Level, which is about "six miles out of' downtown 15 Apex. . ,
16 I am a former resident of Apex for 13 years.
i t' s f..
rS 17 I am here to support the volunteer fire department, the 18 rescue squad, and the Wake County Sheriff's. Department.
I 19 I have personally had dealings with ' these 20 folks, unfortunately. Our home was burglarized, and we 21 have since put in an alarm system which we have monitored.
22 The Sheriff's Department responds each time this goes off, i
% [, 23 or whatever should happen to it. There is not a lag of 24 time. .
- 4. neerwri, ine.
- # f 25 They are very concerned about the welfare of t
! P I 7
16-3-Joe Wal 7957 1 'the people in our County.
() 2 The volunteer rescue squad in Apex are 3 professionally. trained and are very professional in the
-4 way they carry out their duties.
5 I think that should a disaster occur, whether 6 it be nuclear, a chemical disaster or whatever in our area, 7 I think everyone would respond the way they have been 8 trained, and the way that they woulc'. want someone to protect 9 their own families in this area.
10 I think they would make it a point to find 11 out where they are supposed to be, and what they are supposed 12 to be doing.,
13 I do not think that they would desert their
)
14 post in a time of need. They never have, as long as I have 15 been around, and we have some very, very good people in this 16 area.
17 If something should happen, I should hope that 18 they would stay and do what needed to be done to protect the.
19 people in our area.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE'KELLEY: Thank you.
22 WITNESS STANDS ASIDE.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Billy Furlough?
.l,s.
24 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 25 OF
16-4-Joe Wal 7958 1
1 BILLY FURLOUGH
(,)
/ s
- 2 MR. FURLOUGH: My name is Billy Furlough, 3 and I reside in Garner. I, too, would like to give CP&L 4 a vote of confidence on the way they are training.their 5 Personnel.
6 I know they trained long and hard to maintain
, 7 a safety' record at their plants, and also the upcoming Shearon 8 Harris Plant.
9 I would like to also give my vote of confidence 10 for the EMPs, all the emergency personnel of the Wake County 11 area. That includes your Sheriff Department, Highway 12 Patrol, and this sort of people.
~; 13 I believe they are hig.41y trained, highly (V * -
14 motivated, and I do not believe that in;a crisis that they 15 would foresake us at all.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, sir.
18 WITNESS ST; ANDS ASIDE.
19 JUDGE KELLEY: Hollis Smith?
20 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 21 OF 22 HOLLIS SMITH 23 MR. SMITH: Good evening. My name is Hollis 9 24 Aa- aserei Reponers, ene.
25 Smith. I am a resident of Raleigh, and I have bought some property within the ten mile radius of the emergency
16-5-Joe Wal I evacustion area, and I am quite concerned about a number 2 of things.
3 I am concerned .that we are building a potential 4
4 Three Mile Island situation here, and very close to a very 5 large population of people. ,
6 Any time that a machine or a complex mechanism 7 like a nuclear reactor is built, there is the possibility 8 for an accident.
9 We wouldn't be talking about an emergency plan e
10 if there wasn't the possibility of an accident. I think 11 whether you are for or against nuclear power, everyone would ;
12 , agree that there is a potential for an accident. That is why we are' talking about an emergency plan.
(]) 13 14 If there was not going to be an accident, we 15 wouldn't have to worry about -- or a potential accident --
f 16 we wouldn't have to worry about an evacuation plan. f 17 So, I am very concerned that we are creating ',
18 a situation which is posing a potential threat to a lot of
{
- 19 people. j i I l- 20 I don't doubt for a minute the dedication of l 21 the CP&L people, the volunteer. fire departments, the mayor, j l- I i- 22 all the various people who are committed to addressing a l
23 problem situation should it arise. ;
() 24 Ass Federal Reporters, Inc.
I am sure they are all very committed. And 25 want.to do the very best they can should an emergency occur.
7960 16-6-Joe Wel 1 My question is: Why create a situation where 2 such a massive emergency could occur in the first place if 3 it is not needed?
4 And I have a real question about whether or not 5 CP&L really needs this plant. Do they need the power? Are 6 they stressing their current system so much that they, in 7 fact, need this system to handle what is a possible overload 8 on their current systems?
9 What are the alternatives to this system? I 10 have some concerns about that, and I wonder what is being done I
11 '
to address those concerns.
12 I also have some concerns about if this plant
- (e {}
13 were to come on li,ne, what is to be done with the spent fuel?
14 It is a problem with the nuclear industry. Therearen'treallh i
15 a whole lot of good answers that I have been able to hear from 16 people who are pro-nuclear. j 17 Apparently,onehastofindanarea--atpresenth 18 anyway, the state of the art seems to be that one buries the 19 spent nuclear fuel, if one can find first an area that is '
I i
20 geologically acceptable where the ground water table will be F 21 stable for a long time. We are talking long numbers of I 22 years, and then finding an area like that where people are
- 23 willing to accept that this material will be buried in their lll 24 Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc.
neighborhood, just as some of us have concerns about this plant 25 being in our neighborhood, other people have concerns about
-~ . . . ~ - - _ - -. . _ . _ . - - -- - - -- __ -
16-7-Joe Wal
. I this spent fuel being in their neighborhood. So, that is i
()
l 2 a real concern.
3 At the end of the life expectancy of this
- 4 plant -- and it is my understanding that normally these !
5 plants have a life expectancy of approximately thirty years, 6 then what do you do with the facility?
i 7 I understand that you can go in and retool , ;
8 it at-an expense greater than the origninal expense to
- 9 build the plant, or you can do like what was done about ,
10 Detroit Edison after the Fermie I Plant had a near meltdown i,
11 in 1966, and it is my understanding that they pay about a l 12 million dollars a year to guard that now moth balled plant, i
- l ,
13 which in effect has become just a dinosaur. i
{
14 So, that is a real concern.
i i 15 These plants have a definite lifetime, at the -
16 end of which they must continue to be guarded at a large i
17 expense, . and then they don't do anything but sit there and ' '
18 cost money to be guarded.
19 Also, I am concerned about the fact that this
! i j 20 evacuation plan which-has been tried -- I understand was
- 21 conducted over a weekend, on a Saturday mostly. I understand i
22 that there are five schools within the area that would be j l
23 immediately evacuated, within this ten mile range, and I
+
9 Am. Wesl Rgemps, lnc.
24 25 understand that when this plan was tried, that none of these schools had any children in them.
l
c 16-8-Joa Wal 7962 1 So, the trial run did not duplicate reality.
(G_) 2 If an accident occurred during a school day, how would you 3 handle all those children and all those people who weren't 4 there on a Saturday.
5 So, I don't think that the first trial was 6 realistic, or at least duplicated a situation that could l
7 occur, so that is a concern.
l 8 A couple of other things, and then I will be 9 finished. Just one other question. When is the formal j 10 hearing you mentioned? This is the first time I have 11 attended one of these sessions, and you mentioned there would 12 be a formal hearing at which time this will be taken,up i
I I
(} 13 again.
14 Could you inform us as to when that would be? !
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, we have been conducting 16 formal hearings going back to last summer. And we initially 17 had four or five days of hearing on environmental issues I i l
18 early last Summer.
19 Last Fall, September, October, up into November, l
20 we had the longest sequence of hearings having to do with 21 management. Having to do with some assortment of safety 22 issues, and we are now in the process of having hearings !
l 23 on a few, not very many, but a few emergency planning 9 2d Am. Wwet Reporwrs, lnc.
25 contentions.
We had a wide variety of emergency planning I
j l
7963 16-9-Joe Wal 1 contentions put forward.
I) 2 In fact, we had hundreds put forward, and then 3 we had 25 or 30 that were admitted, and then we went through 4 a discovery process, and then we have a process called 5 summary disposition, and in a situation like that the 6 Applicant can file papers and say there is really nothing to 7 this dispute, see the attached Affidavits, and you read the 8 Affidavits, and if there isn't very much on the other side, 9 you rule in their favor. There is no point in a hearing. -
l 10 If there are disputed issues of fact, as there 11 are on two or three of these issues, we then hold a hearing j i
12 on that and we have live witnesses.
. I'.
~
We sta,rted this morning. holding a hearing on
{} 13 14 an issue having to do with whether adult school bus drivers 15 as distinguished from student bus drivers would be faithful i 16 to their bus driving duty, or whether they would be drawn off 17 to go home. '
18 And we heard some testimony on that. And we l 19 are now hearing some testimony carrying over into tomorrow i
20 on a contention having to do with what are called protection i 21 factors, the various kinds of housing in the EPZ, whether it i
22 is a typical residence or a quonset hut or whatever, and how 23 much protection would y,ou get in the event of an emergency 24 if you stayed inside various kinds of buildings.
Am- el Reporters, Inc.
25 We have a carryover issue into the Fall having
16-10-Jo2 Wai 7964 I to do with the efficacy of the sirens. The narrow question
( 2 there is will the sirens wake people up in the EPZ in the 3 middle of the night, and we will be hearing the testimony on 4 that subject. Tentatively we have a date of September 24, 5 I believe. I expect it will be around then.
6 And then if we don't have additional contentions, 7 it is unclear whether we will have other hearings other than 8 the ones I just mentioned.
9 WITNESS: How will the public be informed of I
10 the date and the place? l.
i 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, we typically have press :
12 releases. I think we always do. The media picks it up, and as far as I know,"there is reasonable general knowledge.
(} 13 14 We do not rent space in newspapers and so on, 15 buy TV time, but we issue press releases, and the assumption 16 is, and usually I thi'nk it is true, that the local media t
17 will be interested and will publicize it to some extent, 18 and that is how the word typically gets disseminated.
End 16. 19 Sun W fols. ,
20 21 22 l 23 9 24 Am wwal Roorwes,1N.
25 l
l
. - 7965 i
,P.M.,8:30
- 17-1-SueWalsh MR. SMITH: The only final point I had to make was 4
. 2 that for those of us, certainly living within a certain
- 3 distance from the plant, if there was any kind of an accident,
- 4 then I'm concerned about not only the short term, what would f 5 happen in the emergency itself, and how our people are going 6 to be evacuated and protected from any short term concerns.
. l 7 -But, then what is the long term effect of an i'
8 accident, the lingering effect of radiation being released l 9 and how far it goes and what damage it does and over what l 10 amount of time it does damage. And so that is a concern to l Il me as well. :
12 If it ever got out of the containment area, then
,() 13 how long would we have to deal with? Would it make an area 14 uninhabitable after a certain -- you know, up to a certain I
15 number of years, and that kind of a concern? That is cer-16 tainly a concern of mine as well.
17 ' JUDGE KELLEY: Let me just make a suggestion. You 18 may have done this. But there are various sources of informa- l-19 tion on these various topics, whether it's spent fuel, storage 20 or disposal, whether it's decommissioning, and so on; and, 2l the Intervenor groups have literature on the subjects, the 22 NRC staff has a lot of literature on the subject -- and I 23 mention the staff particularly, if you want to talk with Ms.
() 24
- 1. *JajetM Reporters, Inc.
Moore or somebody else on the staff. Ms. Moore is seated in 25 the middle over there. She might have some information that l
l l' .
i 7966
- 17-2-SueWalsh you might find of some interest.
k,)s 2 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Thank you.
4 George Helmer. Am I pronouncing correctly?
5 MS. HELMER: Close.
6 JUDGE KELLEY: Close. Georgia. Okay. ;
i 7 MS. HELMER: My name is Georgia Helmer. And I ,
i 8 live in Raleigh. i However, we have bought a lot and are build ,
9 ing a home in a sub-development not far frcm Holly Springs, l 10 just north of Fuquay Marina.
11 And we found out yesterday -- we knew it was some-12 where around ten miles from the plant, but we found out i
(~}
\~J 13 yesterday that it's just a bit inside the ten mile line. So, j we will be very close to this proposed nuclear plant.
i 14 '
l 15 My training is as a scientist. I have a Ph.D. in 16 biochemistry with a minor concentration in genetics. I have 17 a twofold concern relative to this proposed nuclear plant.
4 18 A short term consideration -- and it's a consideration which '
19 is especially close to my heart, because I'm going to be 20 living near this plant -- is that I'm concerned about an 21 accident which might cause my family, my husband and the 22 children we have, to be exposed to excessive amounts of i 23 radiation.
("T 24 I think that the emergency evacuation drill that
- Admi n.poners. Inc.
25 was held here a few weeks ago was inadequate. This evacuation '
7967
- 17- 3-SueWalshi drill was held on a Saturday at a time when none of the 2 schools in the vicinity was in session. This has been 3 mentioned before; I will mention it again.
4 And it is our children who stand possibly to suffer 5 the greatest damage of all from radiation, children and i
6 developing fetuses,' rapidly growing cells, rapidly growing !
l 7 organisms. And, yet our children were not represented at I l -
8 all in this drill. I think this was a very serious omission.
l 9 It is also my understanding that no contingency !
10 plan has been established with area hospitals for treatment
'll of possible victims; that, in fact, an adequate number of beds l
12 exists in the area for treatment of possible ' victims but that
. i 13 no contingency plan exists.
14 AndIalsowouldwonderwhathospitalshavefacilitieb 15 for treatment of radiation burns and radiation poisoning, and 16 if a contingency plan has been established for routing of I7 victims to those appropriate centers.
l l 18 A longer term concern is what we do with fuel from l I9 such a plant as this when it is spent. This fuel apparently -
20 cannot be decommissioned or detoxified. And it remains a 21 hazard for many years. .It has a very long half-life. All that '
22 can be done with spent fuel is to store it, and the storage of :
23 this fuel is very expensive. And it's a very serious pollutant.
24 The wisdom of introducing even more serious pollu-l wiedertl Reporters, Inc. l
~
25 tion into an already polluted environment I think is indeed !
! \
I
.- - - - = . - _ - - . _ _ .- _ -
7968
,#17-4-SueWalsh suspect. Thank you. ;
( -
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Just a comment. On your specific 3 concerns, Mr. Eddleman is one of the Intervenors. There are
- 4 others. I mentioned earlier that we may have contentions 5 on-the exercise.
6 If you have concerns about the exercise, you might ,
l !
7 talk with him. For that matter, you could file a pe'tition ;
i 8 yourself. You might get a paper in opposition saying you are I, l 9 too late, or whatever. But it isn't that the possibility of I '
10 an avenue isn't there.
11 And if you want to pursue that, you are free to 12 do so. So, I might just comment on your concern about i
i 13 hospital planning, routing of people and so on. To my 14 knowledge, we don't have in the plans to date that kind of f
l 15 planning about hospitals. The reason is simply that the 16 Commission has taken the position that it's not necessary.
17 That is an issue that has been litigated for the 18 past three or four years. If you are interested in knowing !
l9 where it stands, the Commission issued a recent policy state-20 ment on that very topic. It's sort of a digestable length, as 21 I recall.
2 22 Maybe Ms. Moore could mail a copy. Could you do [
l l
23 that, Ms. Moore?
24 MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
(~} Reorwes,1N.
c dwond i
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
l l.
I
7969
- 17-5-SueWalsh MS. HELMER: Thank you.
(D s/ 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
3 MR. EDDLEMAN: Just for clarity, Judge, didn't the 4 Court say that the Commission's previous action on that 5 issue was not proper?
6 . JUDGE KELLEY: The Court of Appeals -- and I will j i
7 paraphrase it a little bit, they did invalidate the Com-i 8 mission's position that arose in the San Onofre case but l 9 they didn't take any action with respect to what the Commis- i i
10 sion had to do next.
11 They said in effect: We are sending this back to 12 you. Why don't you reconsider this. ,
i
/~N 13 And they are in the posture now of doing just that., l
(_) ;
14 l They did issue a policy statement -- I think that's what they 15 c all it -- a month or so ago saying that they are thinking 16 about it. And in the meantime, we should stick with the old i rule.
17 18 And if you haven't seen that, I can mail you a {
19 copy also.
20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Thank you.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Alan Jones.
22 MR. JONES: No questions.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Jane Sharp.
/~ 24 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT OF :
I bF)derd Reporars, inc.
25 JANE SHARP ,
i l
r 7970
- 17-6-SueWalsh MS. SHARP: Thank you. I am Jane Sharp. And I k_)\ 2 live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, which is beyond the ten 3 mile limit. But, if you remember, we have asked quite 4 urgently several times that the limit be extended to include 5 Chapel Hill, to no avail so far.
6 In the evacuation exercise recently completed, it 7 assumed an accident of some kind, either sabotage or mal-t 8 function presumab2y in planning for safety in a ten mile i i
9 radius around the plant. However, itdidnotplanforroutinef f
10 daily emissions of the two hundred forty different radio-11 nuclides listed in the Health Physics Journal, Volume 38 i 12 for April, 1984, Pages -- that was 1984, sorry. Pages 543 '
I 13 to 621. l (Q_/ ;
14 These include the radioactive isotopes of all the l 15 trace elements and other elements important in nutrition 16 which will be taken up and concentrated in the food chain.
17 The amounts of these isotopes at Shearon Harris will be 18 equivalent to about five thousand seven hundred Hiroshima 19 bombs, at twenty-eight pounds per bomb.
20 Should most of this radiation be released all at 21 once by sabotage or wartime targeting, the two million three 22 hundred thousand people estimated to be living within fifty 23 miles of the plant, in about forty years, could be entirely 24
[)
' AS4Merd Reporters, lm within the plume of radiation for various times, depending on ><
i 25 the wind.
I 7971 !
I
- 17-7-SueWalsh The map of Pennsylvania, after Three Mile Island,
() 2 showed depressed, immune levels and elevated measels out-3 break as much as nine times the average rate throughout the 4 State for well over fifty miles distance from the plant in 5 some cases.
ll 6 The effect of disseminating the hundred fifty-nine ;
7 thousand four hundred twelve pounds of highly radioactive 8 fuel in an operating nuclear plant with its accumulated plu- l 9 tonium, americium, curium and other highly unstable radio-10 toxic wastes would make the entire State of North Carolina !
11 uninhabitable for thousands of years, according to testimony l 12 that I have read. Farm animals and poultry would also inhale i l'
-13 radioactive gases _and particulates and ingest contaminated
[}
i 14 feed, water and surface soil. '
15l The eggs, milk, meat and produce within fifty 16 miles of the plant should be carefully monitored for the '
i 17 five hundred or so different radionuclides of potential im-18 portance in the radiological assessment of contamination -
19 around nuclear plants.
1 20 This is the' opinion of Carl J. Johnson, who has 21 credentials as Associate Clinical Professor at the University !
i 22 of Chicago's School of -- Colorado, I'm sorry, School of !
23 Medicine. He is Past President of the Colorado Public Health I
- 24 3}>a),w n ' Association, and he is on the Governing Council of the I
.. w. ;
25 American Public Health Association and many other epidemiology j o
. .._,.,__,,,,,,.,a-_,w,- vr,,,,,w-,.,.--. ,- - - . - - . . - . - . , . ~ ~ -
-+ ,-
7972 i i
- 17-8-SueWalsh and public health groups with national recognition and. prestige.
,- t
(_) 2 How can the people in this area really feel safe?
3 We have been unbelievably lucky in the past few years to have 4 avoided another major accident or radionuclide releasing 5 sabotage.
I 6 Also, in the well known case of the whistle , i 7 blower, Chan VanVo, reported in the local press over the past 8 year or two, his report of construction, safety, quality and 9 quality control violations was tossed in the wastebasket by t
10 his supervisor. Does this give you confidence in the safety 11 of Shearon Harris?
12 It seems to me that the recent newscasts indicate
(~T 13 that our luck regarding sabotage and terror is also running
\_)
l 14 out. Since North Carolina already has three percent excess f I
l 15 electric power -- thirty-five percent, I'm sorry, excess 16 electric power, it does seem that we might avoid this threat 17 j to public health and life in the middle of the Research Triangle 18 while developing the potential conservation alternative energy i 19 options already available for future generations.
20 And incidently about announcements of hearings and 21 evacuations, you said you hadn't gone in for t.v. and radio 22 announcements because they were too expensive. My understand- l l
23 ing is that announcements of this, kind are public service 24 announcements and are so considered by the media, and that
[]-wrat Reporters, Inc.
25 they could be used at no cost to the NRC or the nuclear industry I
I
7973 i i
1
- 17-9-SueWalsh if the trouble were taken to get the information to those
() 2 media. And in some cases, I think this actually has been 3 done. And I would recommend that we continue to do it for 4 hearings like this.
5 And thank you for the cases that I'm aware of where i
6 it has been done. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
8 Dora Davidson.
9 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT i i
10 OF 11 DONNA DAVIDSON ,
12 MS. DAVIDSON: I'm Donna Davidson, and I'm a --
~
13 . JUDGE KELLEY: I'm sorry. I got your name wrong.
~
14 Go ahead.
15 MS. DAVIDSON: All right. I'm a resident of 16 Cary. And I miss the emergency evacuation plan by a mile, 17 just one mile. And I'm wondering the effectiveness of such 18 '
an exercise when it eliminates thirty thousand people to 19 benefit only fourteen thousand residents of Wake County.
20 What kind of emergency plan is that that completely 21 ignores the majority of the people? I want to live safely 22 in Cary. We've only lived here a year, and we were looking 23 forward to our retirement here. But I feel very uneasy, 24
(~)
Myerst Reporters, Inc.
because I don't think that anybody has discovered a means by 25 which a radiation plume can stop at the ten mile radius.
,r y - ,._--,- - -. . ,- - - ,
7974 l
I i
- 17-10-SueWall I would request and would hopefully hope that you :
i
(.) 2 would consider enlargening the radius as California has done, !
3 and as even Charlotte is considering to include maybe to 4 twenty miles. In that case, it would get so many more of our 5 residents.
6 JUDGE KELLEY: I might just comment that the ten ;
7 mile limit that we've been dealing with here is in an NRC 8 rule, and it's based on a series of studies that the Commis-9 sion undertook, and then they conducted a rulemaking proceed- j i
10 ing. l 11 And the upshot of all of that was that they adopted ,
12 the ten mile rule. We, as a Board, are bound by that rule. -
~
13 And we apply it. We don't have any authority to apply a V(~%
14 fifteen or twenty mile rule. The NRC, of course, could change '
15 their own rule.
. 16 j
And I believe there have been petitions, as a l
17 matter of fact, to expand the ten mile zone. But we, sitting 18 here, don't have that power. !
19 MS. DAVIDSON: Well, you know, Cary has become to 20 be known as the Boom Town U.S.A., as recognized on CBS and 21 other places . We are growing at such a terrific rate, and 22 yet it seems so inappropriate that we should be so totally :
23 ignored in any kind of a plan, even a little siren to help ,
l
() 24 warmerel Regmners, lrw.
us out down at City Hall. l j
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Is any part of Cary now in the ten i
- 7975
- 17-ll-SueWall mile zone?
( )' 2 MS. DAVIDSON: No. We are -- we missed it by one 3 mile.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, just a comment. The zone that '
5 they now have is not necessarily set in stone for the next 6 forty years. If you had growth such that some significant i
7 portion of Cary were inside the zone, I would assume that the 8 zone would be reevaluated. It might be moved somewhat closer i r
9 out -- farther out rather. ;
10 When I say ten miles, the ten mile line isn't 11 necessarily engraved right there on the spot. There are zones 12 that go out twelve miles. I think there are portions of this i 13 zone that aren't exactly ten miles. They tend to follow 14 '
geographical lines.
15 So, it's not that Cary is a growth spot and would 16ll never be in the EPZ, as we call it. It could be in the future.
l 17 ; MS, DAVIDSON: Thank you.
l 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
- END #17 19 i
iSimons f1ws 20 21 .
23 l
t
(~T 24 i l <1dersi neoon.n, inc.
25 i
-e < -
7976 Sim 18-1 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Christopher Rogers.
(m
(,) 2 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT 3 op 4 CHRISTOPHER ROGERS 5 MR. ROGERS: Good evening. My name is Christopher 6 Rogers, and I live just outside of Pittsboro, which I 7 .ecognize is outside of the 10-mile area. But my comment 8 here is just literally to make a comment for the record and 9 somewhat reiterate the c'omments that have already been made.
10 JUDGE KELLEY: Certainly you don't necessarily 11 have to live in the 10-mile zone in order say a word here 12 tonight.
~
13 MR. ROGERS:
() I just wanted to comment on my 14 relationship with~the plant particularly.
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine.
16 MR. ROGERS: But I do feel that the residents 17 out of the 10-mile area are almost as seriously affected 18 by the potential evacuation hazard problems associated with l 19 the plant and, therefore, have been more or less overlooked l
l 20 by the evacuation plan, however adequate it may be for the l
21 people in within that area.
22 Many people who I sincerely believe will be 23 affected if an accident actually does occur know little or 24 nothing about what they should do or where they should go.
Ac9ertl Reporters, Inc.
I 25 Many people don't even really know where the l
l
7977 Sim 18-2 1 plant is literally or how far they do live away from it. I
- (]' 2 recognize that that is essentially their responsibility 3 to take care of themselves, but part of this hearing was 4 I felt to respond to whether adequate protections have been 5 taken in the general public's interest, and my general comment 6 was that I felt it was inadequate and that there were, as 7 other people have mentioned, a great number of people who 8 will probably still stand to be in a great deal of danger 9 without really knowing.what to do.
10 That is essentially all I had to say, 11 JUDGE KELLEY: I think that it is true that the 12 planning for.the evacuation does focus on the 10-pile zone.
- 13 It might be worth noting that the plans do involve mobilization -
14 of a lot of emergency personnel, state highway patrols and 15 what-not, and an awful lot of people are there, and I would 16 think that there would be a fairly considerabic ad hoc 17 capability.
18 If you saw a plume was headed some place, it isn't 19 that you would just sit there and watch it. There would be 20 things that you could do to evacuate on an on-the-spot basis 21 I would think. I don't mean to get into that in any detail.
22 It is just a reaction. But I appreciate your comments.
23 MR. ROGERS: I wonder if I could just add, too, 24 that I wanted to point out that I only recently arrived in Ac il Reporters, Inc.
25 this area as a resident, but I did plan to spend a good deal
I 7978 Sim 18-3 1 of my future here. A lot of the information about the plant
() 2 is new to me and I am actually probably fairly poorly 3 informed. Actually I had expected this hearing to be somewhat 4 of a source of information. In fact, the evaucation plans 5 I had assumed would be in effect a way of informing those 6 who were in danger who were affected by a possible accident 7 that that was the case.
8 So far I really haven't learned anything more 9 than I knew when I came in here. I also just wanted to comment 10 that I felt that the general dissemination of information 11 was inadequate, as well as, as other people pointed out, 12 informing the general public about their access to both i
l
- 13 information and the ability to commenton things that are 1 \J 14 affecting them.
j 15 JUDGE KELLEY: I can be. I think you are right.
16 This evening is not a source of substantive informa tion. It I 17 can be a source of sources in the sense that Ms. Moore from l
18 the NRC staff and Mr. Eddleman and the applicant's lawyers, I 19 Mr. Baxter and Mr. Holler are over there. If you want to 20 put specific questions or perhaps get some literature, feel
> 21 free to contact them.
L 22 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Just one last comment then. In 23 that interest I wonder if at some point there could be a 24 little more formal introduction as to actually who is here l
! Ac ril Reporters, Inc.
l 25 and who is the possible person to address as a source of
7979 Sim 18- 4 1 official informa tion?
2 JUDGE KELLEY: That is a good idea.
3 Ms. Janice Moore of the NRC staff. Could you 4 introduce yourselves over there. That might be helpful.
5 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
6 MR. ROCHLIS: My name is Steve Rochlis. I am 7 the Regional Counsel for the Federal Emergency Management 8 Agency in Region IV which is located in Atlanta, Georgia.
9 To my left is Janice Moore, and I will let her introduce 10 herself.
11 MS. MOORE: My name is Janice Moore, and I am 12 counsel for the NRC staff located in Washington, D. C.
_ 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Eddleman.
~
14 MR. EDDLEMAN: I am Wells Eddleman. I live in 15 Durham. I am an energy consultant. I am not a lawyer, 16 but I can supply you+with information if you would like some.
17 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Baxter and Mr. Holler, we 18 have taken their microphone away from them, but they are 19 back against the wall. They are representing CP&L.
20 MR. ROGERS: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
22 We will take a five-minute break and we will 23 pick up sign-up sheet No. 2.
24 (Recess taken.)
Ac er:l Reporters, Inc.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: We would like to resume.
7980 Sim 18-5 One further source of information. Brad Jones, 1
counsel with the.NRC's Atlanta offices provided me with
(- 2 a name in the Atlanta Office, Mr.. Ken Clark. That is Clark 3
as it is usually spelled, C-1-a-r-k, Ken, K-e-n. He is 4
the Public Affairs Officer in the Atlanta Office and he is 5
a particular useful contact because he can be called collect 6
by members of the public and he will respond to questions 7
or go and look into questions and call back.
8
.His number is Area Code 404-221-4503. That 9
is code 404-221-4503. Ken Clark, the Public Affairs Officer 10 for the NRC in Atlanta.
11 Our next speaker is Ruth Tunstall.
LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT
~
- i 13 OF l 14 RUTH TUNSTALL 15 MS. TUNSTALL: I am Ruth Tunstall, and I live 16 two miles southwest of Apex. I am in the ten-mile limit and I do have a lot of windows.
18 No. 1, and a lot of these things have been covered already. So in the interest of time, I won't reiterate on them, the need for this power plant. No. 1 The great cost of this power plant to go on the line, if it does go on the line, No. 2.
No. 3, the albatross that it will become once
- """"""*' it goes out. I cannot that it would benefit anybody in
- 25 l
7981 Sim 18-6 this area, the cost against the probable problems that
)
/ 2 it could cause.
I am a farmer. I have a family farm that has 3
4 been in the family for a long, long time. In the case of 5
nuclear problems and, as we all know, they are quite probable, what is to become of my livelihood? Who takes 6
responsibility for what I have worked all my life for? You 7
certainly can never farm it again. What is to become of all 8
9 of this?
10 Another question that brings a lot to my mind, jj and probably has nothing to do with this, but I would like ,
for it to be on the record, in the last several months to 12 to the tune of $2,000 I have had to replace wells on our 13 O 14 Prop"erty.
As all of you know, or probably know, this 15 P l ant sits right on the top of the Jonesbury Fault. That 16 j7 is a lovely place to build a nuclear power plant, and of all the places in this area, why there? This adds very 18 19 much to the problems that we have.
20 Everybody says it is inactive. Do you know that it is inactive? We have had rumbles and trembles through 21 22 here before and people have heard their glasses rattling in their cabinet. And now here we are with a power plant
.23 24 sitting right on top of it and we are sitting right next
! r:I Reporters, Inc.
Ac 25 door to it. It makes me think I am living on a time bomb.
7982 An ther thing, I just increased my insurance and
- Sim 18-7 1 in the small print, in case of nuclear problems, it is not 2
w rth a dime. What about those things?
3 I think in all fairness, all of these areas 4
should be covered and everybody should take a long, hard 5
1 k at just how this is going to affect our lives, our 6
livelihood and everything else, not to mention all the money 7
that has been poured, just poured away and poured out.
8 The sirens, you had something to say about those 9
a while ago. On the day of the drill I was inside and I 10 jj didn't even hear them, and I have one less than a mile and.
a half from my house. No, they would not wake you up at 12 night. There would be no way.
13 j4 Another thing, it sounds identical to the fire
- sirens uptown. So you would pay it no mind whatsoever. ~You 15 would think it was a fire alarm. It should be a far different 16 call than the local fire siren.
37
' The waste problem was another thing that bothers 18 me very much, and it has been covered also. So I won't go j9 20 into that.
At 6 o' clock this afternoon I was in the garden 21 22 and had the radio in the car and that is when I heard about this meeting. I think in fairness to the general public and 23 i
24 everybody, it should be much more publicized than this.
Ac ertl Reporters, Inc.
I think that about covers my comments.
25
Sim 18-8 7983 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me just make a couple of
() 2 comments before you go away. You listed a number of concerns.
3 First'I think was the need for power and whether the current 4 demand for electric power was such that you really needed this 5 Plant? Was that the concern?
6 MS. TUNSTALL: That is correct.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me just comment in that 8 connection that the NRC in hearings like the one we are 9 holding here at the stage when the plant is built, when you 10 ,come in and get a construction permit, we will litigate the 11 ueed for power at that time and we very often do have 12 vigorous litigation over whether the projections are accurate 13 and whether it is sensible to build the plant and do what 14 one needs to do to a site, t
15 We recently, not we in the sense of this Board, 16 but the NRC adopted a rule a couple of years ago on the 17 premise that it didn't make an awful lot of sense to relitigate 18 the need for power when you are coming in for an operating 19 license. And one of the reasons is even if the need for i 20 power has dropped off and your demand projections that you 21 had ten years before or eight years before when you came in 22 and got a constructien permit turned out to be wrong, if you 23 are running a large number of coal plants, as CP&L does, and
- 24 you had a brand new nuclear power plant there all built, 2
-Ac .I Reporters, Inc.
25 you would use that nuclear power plant whether or not there
. 7984 Sim 18-9 was additional need for power just because it is cheaper 1
() 2 to run a nuclear power plant.
3 So for that reason, in the absence of some 4 showingcof special circumstances, we don't get into the 5 need for power at this stage of our process.
6 Mr. Eddleman has litigated that and he is still 7 litigating it and maybe he will prevail. Who knows. But I
8 'in any event, it is something that we have looked at, but that 9 is the position that we have taken from the NRC's fairly 10 recent rules saying that to go into the need-for power on a 11 P l ant that is already built just doens't seem to be very 12 sensible.
, gs 13 MS. TUNSTALL: The fact ,is that every time you
\_)
f 14 move CP&L's light bills are going up and they still say yes,
~
15 it is one of-the cheapest things you have, but consider all 16 these old people on fixed incomes and s'ocial security and 17 the cost of living being what it is, it has got to be a real i
18 Problem for those people, and I will be facing that pretty 19 soon. So I know.
! 20 JUDGE KELLEY: Rising costs I am.sure do affect l
21 peoP l e, and especially those on fixed incomes. I think you i
22 should realize that the rates that CP&L and other utilites 23 in North Carolina pay are set by the North Carolina Utilities 24 Commission and not by us. We don't litigate costs at all.
i Ac al Reporters, Inc.
l 25 It is a' safety hearing that we are running, an environmental l
t
7985 Sim 18-10 hearing. It is not a cost hearing. So it is not just
)
O v 2 something that is before us.
One other comment about insurance. There is 3 ,
4 a rather elaborate insurance scheme called the Price-Anderson scheme that comes into play in the event of a 5
ma r nu lear a ident, and there would be a pool, a rather 6
substantial pool of money for injured parties that would 7
be available for payment in the event of a very serious 8
accident of the kind that you were describing.
9 MR. NEWMAN: What is the current size of'the 10 jj pool?
JUDGE KELLEY: It is keyed to the number of 12 reactors. I would guess around $800 mill' ion, and maybe 13 O' j4 somebody can help me out.
MR. NEWMAN: Would that be enough if there g were a serious accident?
JUDGE KELLEY: I think the theory has always p
i been, and of course $800 million is a fair amount of money.
18 It is not, however, ever been thought of, as I know the l 39 history of the Act, as necessarily the total amount that l 20 I
i w uld be put up.
21
! I believe the history of that statute will show 22 that the Congress has always viewed that as earnest money, l 23 24 Put it as you will, but that there would probably be I Aceeertl Reporters, Inc.
additional money provided in the event of a real disaster 25 l
l
7986 Sim 18-11 1 where losses were far beyond whatever the pool was, and .
f 2 that there might be further money forthcaning.
3 MR. NEWMAN: .Where wouldfit come'from?
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Can'gress. I am talking about 5 Congress now. Congress said ,if that isn't enough, come 6 back to us in effect, and I am simply reporting what I 7 know'about it.
8 MR. SPOHN: I think'we have all seen what it 9 has taken for. the people in the Three Mile Island area e
10 to prove their case. -
11 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, I was speaking of a major 12 nuclear accident, and there is a technical term that comes n
13 into play with~ regard to ,the Price-Anderson scheme, and that
(-)
14 isyouhavetohahemajor'offsiteradiationinorderfor 15 that to be triggered.
16 As I understand it, and I am not close to this 17 personally, but as I understand it, no such determination 18 was made in the case of Three Mile Island. So the Act didn't 19 come into play. -
20 MS. TUNSTALL: Well, that would lead me right 21 back to where my questions began with. What would happen 22 to my livelihood? I have got a big farm, that is my livelihood, 23 and there would be no way in the world I could make a 24 living there.
Ae. rot R. port ri, Inc.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, if'you are assuming that 49
7987 Sim 18-12 1 your farm was destroyed by irradiated land and all the rest p
G 2 by a major accident, then I assume that the Act would be 3 triggered. I am simply saying from what I know about 4 Three Mile Island, the offsite radiation amounts were barely 5 measurable.
6 MS. TUNSTALL: Like the man that has a dandelion 7 that is four foot long.
8 (Laughter.)
end Sim 9 J0e fols 10 11 12 13 ~
(9 d 14 15
=t 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Acheti Reporters, Inc.
25
_. _. - _ _ _ . _, _m _,.., .,-_ _ _ - , , . _ , - . -
7988 19-1-Joe Wal 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Michael W. Spohn? Did I pronounce 2 your name right, sir.
3 MR. SPOHN: Yes, sir.
4 LIMITED APPEARANCE' STATEMENT 5 OF 6 MICHAEL W. SPOHN 7 MR. SPOHN: My name is Michael Spohn. I live ,
i 8 in Apex, and have for two years.
9 And I thank all the 24 or so people sitting 10 behind me in the 10 mile radius for coming out tonight.
11 I have been in the nuclear business now for 13 years as a 12 designer. I have gone from Salem, New Jersey projects, l
/~ 13 Units 1 and 2; North Anna, Units 1 and 2, through hot {
(-)/
14 functional; I have been in other projects, this one for two I 15 years.
16 Cincinnati Gas and Electric at the Zimmer 17 Power Station for two years, in which I put a lot of hard, 18 earnest work in, in which there was a shutdown.
19 The nuclear industry has been my livelihood 20 for 13 years, and I am not at all delighted with what is 21 going on.
22 And after reading what I suppose is the recent 23 issues of, I believe it is -- don't quote me on this, but i I
24 maybe it is Forbes Magazine concerning the management of f Am- I Reporurs, Inc. i 25 power plants, and how it has been handled. l 1
i 4
- - - , - , - , - n , . . _ , - . - - . - . . - , .
7989 19-2-Jon Wal 1 It has been a terrible atrocity I think. I have 9
'Q s_/ 2 seen it from the inside, unlike many people sitting here.
3 I feel that faced with people behind me, here
'4 in Apex who are with -- I should not specify as necessarily 5 Apex, but the people behind me are people who are a lot less 6 informed than other people in the power industry that I have 7 been associated with, living at Cincinnati, around Richmond, 8 Virginia, the Salem, New Jersey area. I think the informacy
'9 of the group behind me is quite limited.
l i
10 I believe that the sincerity of their rescue !
i II operations, their ambulatory services and all that, you know 12 they are a hundred percent dedicated, and I have no problem
- 13 .with that.
[ .
14 However, I don't think the people in this area 15 are duly informed exactly what is going on inside that '
16 power plant as I have seen it for the last 13 years.
17 I feel that we are also surrounded by members of l
18 a bureaucratic society who are more or less trying to buy it 19 off here in front of a group of what, 24 or so people. We 20 really are not that informed about what is going on.
21 And I just hope -- the only reason -- let me 22 cut that off. The only reason that I am here tonight is .
23 because I just happened to see on television, and I live 24 right up the road, that there was going to be a hearing,
/}
Ad4Wwd Repomn, lm. l I
25 okay? I I
f
7990
~19-3-Jos Wai 1 Now, I watch television all the time -- probably O
'/ 2 too much for my health. I am kind of sorry at the turnout 3 tonight,.in that I don't think this ten mile radius is well 4 represented whatsoever.
5 Now, I have had various difficulties out at the 6 power plant, and whether this be an evacuation, a safety 7 hearing for that particular reason or not, I would like to 8 go ahead -- excuse me -- on.my own, and I would like to list I 9 two specific things in which I had a problem with internally l 10 with design control in the power plant, and I will call it '
11 allegations.
i 12 Whether you want t'o hear it tonight or not,
()
13 okay? I have it written here -- in written form -- in which 14 I will leave it for your scrutiny later. !
15 Item 1, loss of design control. Okay? I am 16 involved in design of nuclear pipe supports for safety relat6d 17 systems. We are talking seismic class 1, 2, 3, related 18 systems for safe shutdown of the reactor.
I9 Okay? It is my experience to note that the 20 development of the field modification program -- this is a :
21 program in which field engineers redesign pipe supports out 22 l in the field. They are cosigned by qualified, ' qualified' I
23 designers, in which designs were created by field engineering'
() 24 Am Federet Reporters, Inc.
force -- let me read on -- has led to an overabundance of 25 quality-related designs in which minimal or no backup
19-4-Joa Wnl I calculations exist concerning stress, deflection, seismic 2 criterias, and everything else that goes in a documented 3 form to be reviewed by the gentlemen and ladies over here 4 of the _,NRC, who do basically a two percent evaluation, if 5 I might add -- anyway, back to my memo.
6 Since April 16th of '85, field redesigns have 7 been performed more by unqualified des'igners, that being 8 field engineers -- not that they are designers, and this 9 is out of context -- but they are field engineers and co-10 signed by the design group.
11 However, hundreds of designs are now present l 12 constructed within the plant without adequate and timely
(} 13 -- and I stress the word, ' timely' backup calculations.
14 In other words, these particular supports may l i'
15 be hydro, we ar_e talking possibly hundreds of pipe supports I
16 that I was affiliated with in which backup calculations f
17 come at a much later date. As a. matter of fact, they are 18 going to be coming at such a much later date that they felt 19 that it was adequate to go ahead and lay off a large number 20 of the design force, okay? i 21 Item No. 2. Many designers were brought to the -
22 job site within this discipline who had little or no 23 experience whatsoever for handling calculations of seismic f
24 and computerized analyzed supports. It was quite regular Aes- oderd Reporters, Inc.
25 during a peak manpower loading era, in which designers new I
7992-
'19-5-Joa Wal 1 to the job asked help in calculations.
() 2 I was actually approached by people, not just 3 one, but two, three, four, five, just within myself. People 4 who had never done calculations on _ nulcear safety related 5 pipe supports in their life, okay? Strictly people who 6 had come from the aircraft industry. Who came from industries 7 such as the petro-chemical industry, okay?
8 Continuing on. Not being a procedural learning .
9 process -- this wasn't the fact that they were just new on i 10 the job, this was that they had never done this before, 11 these individuals had never performed support calculations .
i 12 be fore .
13 And I stress this point right here, and this l'
14 is very important, and I want .you to all here remember this : I i
15 There was .no available program within the CP&L discipline of '
16 the nuclear pipe supports for the testing and evaluation of 17 newly hired personnel evaluating nuclea'r safety related 18 pipe supports. !
l j 19 A new man comes on the job, and he is a welder.
20 You have a welder's qualification program. That man must i i
21 be qualified to go out there to make sure that he isn't out i
22 there welding it with a piece of coat hanger, okay? j i
l 23 And yet, pipe support people come in doing l l
- g 24 A m h o n w orwrs,im.
designs on pipe supports, and there is no qualification l
l i' 25 program for them.
l f
19-6-Jos Wal 7993 1 And I think that is definitely something O
(,,) 2 serious to look at, okay ?
3 I hope the above situation would be examined 4 by the management, and especially the Nuclear Regulatory 5 Commission involved with the-final acceptance of this 6 plant.
7 Now, I think it is about time for some of the 8 people in this area, rather than 24 people within a ten mile 9 zone, some in this area wake up to what is going on inside j l
10 of this plant with the management, and where the billions of j f
Il dollars are going to be spent. l 12 Are they going to be spent on a quality program !
I
- 1
(-
13 or not? And should we have all these things available to ;
I 14 us, and should we hear from the people from the inside out, !
l 15 then I think we can help educate the people of this plant, 16 and the area surrounding it.
I7 I am not out to see that this plant goes down 18 the tubes or CP&L is demised of millions of dollars doing l 19 this, but I am sincere when I say that CP&L has a managerial 20 problem in how they handle what is going on there.
21 And I want the people to look inside of what t
22 is going on. I don't want to see any bureaucratic stuffed 23 shirt situation on the outside, in which things are being 24 smoothed over, and whether you heard the siren or not.
A=ewo neporms ine.
l 25 I want to see that the people are educated l
19-7-Joe Wnl 7994 I within the plant so that those people from within the plant
() 2 can tell the people outside of the plant that we do, indeed, 3 have a quality program there.
4 And that is all I have to say, sir.
5 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Spohn, if I can just check 6 a couple of things with you.
7 (Applause.) l 8 The information that you were providing about 9 the design problems in pipe stresses, were you, or are you an l'i 10 employee at CP&L? i Il MR. SPOHN: I was for two years.
12 JUDGE KELLEY: I see. You might have said that, ,
i
(~S 13 .and maybe I didn't catch'it. I just wanted to be sure that l
\_) ;
14 that was true, i
. 15 Now, we normally when someone like yourself 16 comes forward and makes -- gives specific information about 17' specific problems at the plant, we as a matter of routine 18 ask the NRC Staff to look into it. !
19 MR. SPOHN: It is an allegation.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. And Mr. Brad Jones is 21 over against the wall, he is a counsel from the Atlanta 22 Office. Ms. Moore is in the Washington Office, and can we !
23 -- can I count on you to cooperate with them in their 24 investigation of your allegations? !
rat Reporwrs, ime.
25 MR. SOPHN: Exactly. j
19-8-Jos Waf 7995 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
() 2 MR. SPOHN: All I have to say is right here 3 in this letter.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine. And I trust that the 5 Applicants' also will be looking into your allegations, too.
6 Thank you very much.
7 MR. SPOHN: I want to say if the people in a this area would look inside into what is going on rather 9 than the smattering of the outside appearances. These !
10 people seem to smooth it over.
I l l
11 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
I 12 WITNESS STANDS ASIDE.
l 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Now, I have been down the list i i
14 of sign up speakers. Is there anyone else in the audience
i 15 who would like to have a chance to speak who did not sign 16 up?
17 (No response.)
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, seeing no hands, thank !
19 you very much for coming this evening. We appreciate your 20 views and your information, and we will on that note adjourn.
21 Thank you. '
l 22 (Whereupon, at 9 :20 p.d. , the limited appearance !
23 portion of the hearing concluded.)
24 * * *********
"JR a m ners,lrm l
25 i
t SusWalch I CERTIFICATE OF OFFICAL REPORTERS '
v 2 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
3 NAME OF PROCEEDING: Shearon Harris 4 Evidentiary Hearing (Limited Appearances) 5 DOCKET NO: 50-400-OL 6 PLACE: APEX, N. C. ,
7 DATE: MONDAY EVENING SESSION, JUNE 24, 1985 I l
- 8 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original I transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear 9 Regulatory Commission.
1I GARRETTJpALSH, JR.[ l Official Reporter :
12 Reporter's Affiliation: Ace Federal
- g ll, 14 I MYRTLtg.WALSH '
Officirl Reporter 15 Reporter's Affiliation: Ace Federal 16 17 g 18 J '
MARY SIMONS Official Reporter I9 Reporter's Affiliation: Ace Federal 20 ,
i 1
21 i
l 22 l
l 23 O 24
& beaersl Reporters, Inc.
25 i
I
._ . . _ - . , . - - . . . - - -