ML20244B914
| ML20244B914 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/07/1989 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-1742, NUDOCS 8906140034 | |
| Download: ML20244B914 (119) | |
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UNITED STATES 4
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 4
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SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN
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l Pages:
1 through 104 Place:
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~ UNITED STATES ~ NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS In the Matter'of:
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SUBCOWJITTEE ON HUMAN
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i FACTORS Wednesday, June 7, 1989 Phillips Building 7920 Norfolk Avenue
.Bethesda, Maryland The meeting convened,' pursuant to notice,'at 1:00 p.m.
3 SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT:
DR. FORREST J. REMICK,.-Chairman Associate Vice-Presiderst for'Research 1 Professor of Nuclear Engineering
.l The Pennsylvania State University
-j University Park,' Pennsylvania l
l MR. JAMES CARROLL Retired Manager, Nuclear. Operations j
Support Pacific Gas & Electric Company San Francisco, California I
DR. WILLIAM KERR Professor of Nuclear Engineering.
d Director, Office of Energy Research University of Michigan j
Ann Arbor, Michigan MR, DAVID A.
WARD Research Manager on Special Assignment
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du Pont de Nemours & Company-Savannah River Laboratory Aiken, South Carolina l'
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h SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT. (Continued)
. MR. CHARLES J. WYLIE Retired Chief Engineer' Electrical' Division Duke Power' Company
' Charlotte, North Carolina; E:
Herman Alderman PRESENTERS Mort Fleishman Zoltan Rosztoczy John.Telford O.
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1 E B Q Q R E p_ 1 E G E-2 DR. REMICK:
The meeting will now come to order.
3 This is a meeting of the ACRS Subcommittee on 4
Human Factors.
5 I am Forrest Remick, Chairman.
Other ACRS members 6
in attendance are Dr. Kerr, Mr. Carroll, Mr. Wy..le.
7 Today's meeting will be to review the Commission's 8
Policy Statement on education for senior operators and shift 9
supervisors at nuclear power plants.
10 Herman Alderman is the Cognizant ACRS staff member 11 for today's meeting.
12 The rules for participation in today's meeting 13 have been announced as part of the notice of this meeting-(( )
14 that was published in the Federal Register on May 24th 1989.
15 This meeting is being conducted in accordance with-16 the provisions of the Federal Advisory Committee Act and the 17 Government in the Sunshine Act.
18 We have received no written or oral statements 19 from members of the public.
20 It is requested that each speaker first identify 21 himself or herself and speak with sufficient clarity and 22 volume so that he or she can be readily heard.
23 As a quick summary,. I'm sure the staff will go 24 over this, but this is a matter which was first published as 25 an advanced notice of proposed rulemaking back in May 1986, r'
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1 I believe, fat which time the Commission was indicating that-l
'2 it.was considering rulemaking which would require all' senior l
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' operators in the future after some number of years ahead--I l
-4 believe it was_four years--would be required.to have a-5 baccalaureate. degree.-
6 There were I.think about 200 public comments at.
7 that time,-if I recall.. About 98 percent of them were 8
opposed.
The ACRS considered that issue at several meetings 9
and wrote a letter to the Commission.-
I think it was August 10 12th 1987 which we indicated opposition to that proposed-11 rule'also.
12 Then this past December the Commission issued a.
13 proposed rule.
In that proposed rule they had two
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14 alternatives.
Alternative 1, if I recall,.was basically 15 identical to what had been in the advanced notice of-26 proposed rule.
In other words, all senior operators must 17 have baccalaureate degrees.
18 Alternate B would require that all shift j
19 supervisors have baccalaureate degrees.
20 I understand, but I believe the staff is going to 21 tell us, that there have been about 250 public comments 22 provided on that of which about 95 percent, I believe, have 23 been in opposition.
24 The Commission then asked the staff to go back and 25 prepare a Policy Statement, the one that we are going to.
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1 consider today.
The Commission has asked that the ACRS 2
review this Policy Statement and hopefully give its response 3
in a letter this month.
4 Before asking the staff to tell us about the 5
proposed Policy Statement, and I understand these are not 6
necessarily the authors who are with us, but representing 7
the Commission.
8 Are there any members of the Subcommittee that 9
wish to make any introductory comments?
10 Hearing none--Ray?
11 MR. CARROLL:
Do you remember which Commissioner 22 raised--
13 DR. REMICK:
Well, Commissioner Roberts did ask us
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14 specifically when we review the proposed policy to review g
15 the encouragement that's in there about encouraging 16 utilities to employ people who have degrees from accredited 17 institutions, and in particular, employees whc have 18 graduated from accredited programs.
That's basically it.
19 He's questioning the need for employing people 20 from either accredited institutions or accredited programs.
21 And points out that that is not a requirement of employing 22 NRC employees, so that is something that we will--
23 MR. CARROLL:
That's Rogers.
24 DR. REMICK:
Oh, I'm sorry.
25 DR. KERR:
No, Rogers wanted accreditation.
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Roberts raised-the question as to whether--well, he asked l
2' the ACRS I believe to comment on that.
3 DR. REMICK:
Yeah, okay.
4
'Any other questions or comments from.the 5
Subcommittee?
If not, I'll. turn to the staff..
6 Zoltan,.are you going to take the lead?
7 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
8 And I prefer basically to do three_ things.. One of-9
~them is to provide you with a little background,'that I~
10 think you already have kind of set for us.
11 DR. REMICK:
You might want to correct it.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The second part is to-report to 13 you on the evaluation of the comments that we have received 14 on.the rule.
15 And then the third part is a brief outline of the 16 Policy Statement.
l 17 I do have some transparencies, so if you wish, I 18 can go out there and use them.
I can also talk from here, 19 whichever you prefer.
20 DR. REMICK:
Any preference?
21 DR. KERR:
Have we got the transparencies?
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-MR.
ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
You have the handout which
-l 23 is exactly the same then and--
j 24 DR. REMICK:
If there are enough copies for 25 everybody, then why don't you just proceed from the table.
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' 1' MR. ROSZTOCZY: -Okay.
2 The first page shows basically the background, and 3
this is very closely parallel.to what the Chairman just 4
-described.
5-I would like to point out that there have been 6
three separate' rounds'_in a' sense. 'First, the issue of 7
advance notice of proposed rulemaking, which.was May 1986.
8 And we received comment on those.
-We' evaluated them.
And 9-we had a number of meetings with you:following that.
And 10 then you issued your letter. :So that1was kind.of.the end of-Lil' the first round with the. additional comment.that.following 12 your letter, the Commission' decided to go ahead and issue'a 13 proposed rule for public comment.
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14 And the second round, to' issue this proposal ~for 15 public comment.
And'as the, Chairman mentioned, we issued-16-really two different options within the rule. -Option 1 was
-17 oriented to our senior operators.
They would be the ones-18 who would have some education requirement.
Option 2 was
'19 toward the shift supervisors.
20 We have received a large number of comments on the 21 proposed rule.
We have now evaluated those comments and.the 22-evaluation of our comments is in a draft Commission Paper l
23 which we just gave you a copy of.
That Commission Paper is L
i 24 presently in the current command chain.
It hasn't been j
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25 fulled signed up.
We expect that it will get up to Mr.
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'Stello sometime this week.
- 2 I'm sorry. 'It.has.been; signed.'by Dr..
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3 this morning and was actually delivered to: Mr.. Stello,' so 4
now it's in Mr. Ste11o's office.
But,he hasn't;had a' chance.
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5 to consider it yet.
'It didn't.go to the Commission.yet.
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'6 for the; time being, it's considered. pre-decisional-and'it's 7
-not for public release yet.
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But you'should feel free to'ask' questions based on 9
that and we would be happy to respond to that to the. extent-10 that it's needed.
.11 DR. REMICK:
I assume that the proposed Policy
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1 12 Statement has gone.to the' Commission, is that right?
l 13 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The proposed Policy Statement, in
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14 a sense, is being jointed prepared by the staff and the 15 Commissioner's staff based on'the past availability.
But it i
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has not yet gone to the Commission for action.
l 17 DR. REMICK:
Oh, I see.
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18 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The Commission has provided based-19 on the available information, including the preliminary 20 evaluation of the comments.
The Commission sent us an SRM l
21 to proceed in this. direction.
We are proceeding in the 22 direction.
The Commissioners themselves have not yet 23 considered the Policy Statement.
24 That doesn't mean that-copies are not available to 25 them, but they have not yet discussed them.
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1 DR. REMICK:
What was provided to us on June 2nd, 2'
is that the version that:will_go to the Commission?
3 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That is the expectation that.-
4-that's the version to7go=to the Commission.
Prior _to that,.
5-it was circulated to the staff and the staff commented on 6
it ' -
Then we got back that? version. -We probably have a few
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.more small comments'on it.
Plus there was a part which was 8
incomplete.
The one that relates to the evaluation of the 9
comments.
10 DR. REMICK:
Yes.
'll MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Was awaiting this other' Commission 12-Paper and that will be referenced ther'e appropriately when 13 it gets up to them.
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14 DR. REMICK:
Well, the reason I asked that 1
15 question--I think it would be important on'what the full 16 Committee reviews on Friday that the Policy Statement itself 17 be what the Commission will be considering.
Otherwise I can 18 see the' possibility of confusion, if we are reviewing 19 something that is later changed before it goes to.the 20 Commission.
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
On the'one which you received on-22 June 2nd, that's the one I think that both the Subcommittee 23 and the full Committee should review.
But you should 24 understand that the one which finally will be issued 25 probably will'have some markups based on your comments, O
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2 DR. REMICK:
I see.
Okay.
3 MR. ROS-ZTOCZY:
So that kind of completed the 4
second round.
And now the third round, what we are doing is 5
to prepare the Policy Statement based on the Commission's 6
guidance.
7 Turning to.the next page that's summarizes what's 8
the basic requirement in the advanced notice of proposed 9
rulemaking, which was the first round, the one back in 1986.
10 Basically what it said was that senior operators 11 would be required to have a Bachelor's Degree beyond a 12 certain date, and the date was set as January 1st 1991.
13 The degree requirement was also limited to
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14 engineering and physical sciences with a proviso that 15 individuals with degrees in other areas could be considered k
16 on a case-by-case basis.
17 Degree equivalency was not acceptable.
Degree 18 equivalency is simply a finding by the utility that an 19 individual has the experience and knowledge equitable to a l
20 degree without receiving any certification from an i
21 institution.
And that was not acceptable under this 22 proposal.
23 A separate requirement in the advanced notice was 24 that one year out of the two years required for nuclear 1
25 plant experience would have to be the plant operating at I
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1 greater than.20 percent power.
So this was'on-hand 2
experience.with a power plant operating at elevated powers.
3 And probably the most important proviso in the 4
rule was that all senior operators who have received a 5-
' certification prior to the general 1991' deadline would be 6
grandfathered, so they could stay senior operators for.the
'7 rest of their lives.
And they would not have to have a 8
degree requirement.
9 There was also a concurrent Policy Statement that, 10
-by the way, existed both at this time and when we issued'the 11 rule for public comment last year also, so.that Policy 12 Statement was always associated with it.
13 The next page discusses'the ACRS meetings
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14 following this first round of comments.
We had had four 15 different ACRS meetings.
The dates are shown there.
And 16 then you issued your letter.
17 As we understand your letter, you were strongly 18 supporting the concept of engineering expertise on shift.
19 And you endorsed the combined shift technical advisor 20 function with a senior operator position.
However, you did 21 not find any rationale for a requirement to have a degree 22 for senior operators, and on that basis you recommended 23 against issuing a rule on degree requirement.
24 The Commission after considering all available 25 information including your letter decided to go ahead and Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 issue two options of the rule for public comment.
In the 2
Commission's discussion, they also discussed the possibility 3
to issue a Policy Statement instead of a rule, but they felt 4
that it was appropriate and probably beneficial to issue the 5
actual rule for public comment as opposed to just the 6
advanced statement which was done earlier.
7 So we did issue two separate versions of the 8
proposed rule and we did receive a large number of comments 9
on it.
10 The next slide shows the first alternative that 11 was in the rule.
This is the alternative that was oriented 12 toward the senior operators.
It required a Bachelor's 13 Degree in Engineering, Engineering Technology, or Physical
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14 Sciences.
So it slightly broaden the area.
And it also 15 acknowledged that other Bachelor's degrees could be 16 considered on a case-by-case basis.
17 In terms of experience requirement, it raised the 18 experience requirement from two years to three years.
It is 19 still required that one of the three years would have to be 20 at greater than 20 percent power--that the reactor is 21 operating at greater than 20 percent power.
And it had a 22 new requirement that at least six months has to be at the 23 plant where the license is being obtained.
24 It did have a grandfathering provision similar to 1
25 the previous one.
Please note that the date has also
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1 changed.
The original 1991 date has been changed to four 2
years after the effective date of the rule.
So'it' extended j
3 it.further into the future, provided a longer time period l
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for those who were. interested to get--those operators who l
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were' interested to get the senior operator license, that 6
,they should be able to achieve that prior to the cut-off 7
date.
And all of those would be. grandfathered, just as 8
previous.
9 The second alternative that was proposed in the 10 same package--
11 MR. CARROLL:
Now, these two alternatives, Zoltan, 12 the idea was either one or two would be adopted.
It wasn't
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13 you could choose?
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14 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's correct.
The idea was that I
15 the Commission would publish one rule and by issuing the two 16 alternatives for comment, they'were requesting the 17 commenters to express their preference if they had some 18 toward one or another.
And another possibility wasn't 19 spelled out in detail, but another possibility was that if 20 there are some provisos or some parts of one of the 21 alternatives which is definitely better than the other, and 22 maybe in some other respect, vice versa, then we might come 23 up with a final rule that would be the best of both, in a.
24 sense.
25 The second alternative did not require any i
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1 educational requirement, like a degree for senior operators.
2 Instead, it would require a degree only for the shift 3
supervisor.
4 For the purpose of this rule, the shift' supervisor 5
was defined in such a way that each control room would'have 6
a shift supervisor.
So if you control two units from a 7-control room,.then there could be just one shift supervisor.
8 But if you control two units from two control rooms, then-9 each of them would have to have its own shift supervisor.
10 MR. CARROLL:
Nowr.a_ lot of utilities are moving 11 in the direction of having, say, for a common two-unit 12 control room, having a shift supervisor for each unit and a 13 shift manager.
The responsible management person presumably
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14 has a senior license.
He's the guy who would be the degreed.
15 person.
Now, I wasn't clear in reading the material whether 16 you were properly recognizing that concept.
But I know a 17 number of utilities are doing that.
18 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
We recognize the fact that not all 19 the utilitien are using the named shift supervisor in the 1
20 same way.
By recognizing that we provided a definition'for l
21 the purpose of this rule, by providing this definition, this I
22 would mean, for example, the case that you described, for j
23 that control room, there would have to be only one person 24 who would be the designated shift supervisor, if you wish, 25
'and would fall under the degree requirement.
Not three of l
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1 them, but only one.
2 MR. CARROLL:
You say one.
There would be one per 3
unit though.
4 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
No.
One per control room.
5 MR. CARROLL:
Oh, per control room.
You are l
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right.
Excuse me.
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7 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
One per control room.
8 MR. CARROLL:
One per control room.
All right.
9 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
So there are two units controlled 10 from one control room, and there are two shift supervisors 11 plus that shift manager.
And then only one of the three 12 would fall under the degree requirement under that rule.
13 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I'm Morton Fleishman.
The actual
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14 proposed regulation didn't use the word " shift supervisor."
15 It just said a senior manager who had a license for--
16 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
17 MR. FLEISHMAN:
--the various reactors that would 18 be controlled by the control room.
Because the term is used 19 differently in different places.
20 MR. CARROLL:
There's so much variation in what 21 you call these guys.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
Right.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
24 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
This rule was also set forth as it 25 would be effective for--
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'l DR. REMICK:
Excuse me just a second.
2 Jay raises an interesting question ~
It doesn't
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3 really relate to. exactly what.we are' talking about,obut 4
'supposeLyou had the shift manager, had theidegree,.but he-5 had no SRO license.
Then he would not have meet that 6
requirement.
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'MR.'ROSZTOCZY:
No. -
.8 DR. REMICK:
Is that right?
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'MR. ROSZTOCZY: 'That's correct,'that's correct.
10 DR. REMICK:
He has to be. licensed.
11 MR. FLEISHMAN:
In fact, the proposed regulation-12 actually said that it was a person who actually had a senior 13 operator' license for each-one of the units being considered.
.O 14 se it he aie='t h ve it, we -e=1a='t de ce 1aerea er **1-15 rule.
16 MR. CARROLL:
But at least the utilities I'm aware 17 of that are moving in that direction this guy had a degree 18 plus the--
1 19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
This. rule also would'have become 20 effective four years after the effective date, so it had the 21 same kind of time period.
And then this person, the shift 22 supervisor,'would have to satisfy one of.three requirements.
23-The three requirements were--one of them is a Bachelor's j
12 4 Degree, but it was more restricted in that it said it was 25 from an ABET accredited program.
ABET stands for Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 l
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1 Accreditation Board for Engineerir.g and Technology and most l
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of the larger universities engineering departments are j
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accredited today.
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The second choice would have been a professional I
5 engineering license issued in the state.
6 And the third one would'have been a Bachelor's i
7 Degree in any major together with an engineering training 8
certificate.
An. engineering training certificate is 9
obtained through passing an examination.
So in a sense, the 10 third option is more of a measure of an engineering 11 knowledge than having an engineering degree.
And that would 12 have been an acceptable option.
13 Relative to the other requirements, the
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14 Alternative 2 was very similar to Alternative 1.
There are 15 slight differences because of the senior operator replaced 16 by the shift supervisor, but the six-months plant experience 17 would have been required in this case from the shift 18 supervisor.
19 Turning to the next page, and I would like to 20 comment on the public comments that we received on these two 21 options.
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22 Altogether, we have received 250 comments.
98 23 percent, so a very large portion of the comments came from 24 people who are actually involved in the industry.
Meaning 25 utilities and operators mainly.
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1 The remaining comments or the remaining 2 percent 2
came from educational institutions.like universities and 3
from one citizens group.
4 95 percent of the comments were.against the rule, 5
independent of whether it's Alternative 1 or 2.
They did-
. fi not' support the rule.
'7 All of the utility comments were against the. rule.
8 The operator comments split 90 percent to 10 percent.
So 9
for every nine who opposed it, there was one who saw some 10 benefits from having a degree requirement.
And issuing a 11 rule for a degree requirement.
12 Some of the major comments that we received are 13 shown on the next page.
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14 DR. REMICK:
A question.
_Of the ten people who 15 appeared tc be operators who indicated in favor of it,.was 16 there any way of knowing whether they had degrees?
Whether 17 they were people with degrees or not?
18 MR. FLEISHMAN:
My recollection is that some of 19 them had degrees, and I think either one or two actually had 20 a PE license.
21 DR. REMICK:
I see.
Okay.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
Some of them had degrees.
In 23 fact, probably more of the people who had degrees were 24 actually opposed to the rule rather than in favor of the 25 rule.
As far as the people who were in favor of the rule, Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888
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l' there may have been'one or two that actually had degrees.
2 But I would say probably more of the people who had degrees 3 -
were actually against the rule.
4 DR. REMICK:
I see.
Thank you.
5 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The next page we have some of the 6
major comments that we.have' received, and let me just run 7
down these and then we have provided to you the draft 8
Commission Paper which in addition to having these major 9
comments, it's also spelled out in more detail, the number 10-of the major comments and provided the staff evaluation for ll-them.
12 One of the major comments was the proposed rule is 13 not necessary.
In other words, the fact that based on l
14 what's presently being done both by the utilities and the
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15 NRC is sufficient and there is no real need--there hasn't 16 been a real need established to do something more than is 17 presently being done.
18 The second major comment was that experience is 19 more important than education.
So they were saying that how 20 much you have worked in a plant, how much you learned about 21 a given plant is -probably more important than educational 22 background.
23 The third major comment was that if more knowledge 24 is needed, then NRC should identify what knowledge is needed 25~
and the NRC should set up its operator. examination program i
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1' as it would be assured that that knowledge physically' exists.
2 there.
3 In other: words, don't require _.a degree but if:
4 certain type of knowledge is needed, then just build'it into 5
-the' programs which are required for the operators to follow.
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.DR.
REMICK:. Those'three' comments I think were-
~7 very similar to what was in the response to the advance 8
noticeLof the proposed rulemaking,oif.I: recall. LI think 9
there were--
11 0 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The first two definitely.-
I am 11 not sure on the. third.. The third I think was maybe new at-12 this time.
The first two definitely.
13 In general, the' tone of the' comments in general
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'14 was the same as previously.
Just from the numbers that you 15 mentioned in connection with the first set of comments and 1 16 the second.
They basically got the same picture.
17 What we did receive in the second~ comments was 18 somewhat new, was that more specific' comments relative to.
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-certain parts of the rule, just a little bit more detail, 20 more sophistication maybe in.the comments.
21 What they have seen at this time was a detailed' 22 rule and they were commenting on parts of that rule.
23 They also commented on the shift technical advisor l
24-position and the~ comments were~rather positive on that.
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.They indicated that it worked out well and it should be Beritage Reporting Corporation (202)~ 628-4888
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21 1-retained.
The Commission had nocintention to eliminate 2
that, so I think that those comments are positive along i
3 those lines.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Back to what 1[ was talking about 5
earlier, the_ notion of a degreed shift manager with people 6
that either do or don't have degrees at shift supervisors 7
would eliminate.the STA in those situations.
That's what 8
the utilities are after.
9 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It could eliminate it.
It 10 eliminate it and the Commission already has a policy out 11 there which recommends'really to combine the shift technical 12 advisor with degreed operators, so it would go along those 13 lines.
14 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
One major concern was, and this is 15 maybe kind of in the foreground of the opposition that we 16 have received from the operators who commented, is that if 17 there would be a rule which requires a degree and then it 18 would block the career paths of many of the operators.
19 People who are still operators and not senior operators at 20 the time when the rule is passed, then many of them would be i
21 forced to stay in that position.
They couldn't go further.
22 That relates I think to the next comment which 23 indicated that they find it very difficult to complete a L
24 degree program while they are working as full-time reactor-25 operators.
There are various programs underway.
Many of 1
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I the utilities now have programs.
Some of them had it and 2
some of the largest ones had it for a good number of years.
3 And as we understand, there were a relatively large number 4
of people entered into the program.
There was enthusiasm 5
toward the program.
But relatively few graduated from the 6
program so far.
7 In other words, they started but to go through on 8
everything that you must go through to get an engineering 9
degree, that's very hard to accomplish and there are only a 10 few examples that were really able to accomplish it.
11 MR. CARROLL:
It takes a long time.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It takes a long time--
13 MR. CARROLL:
Trying to get a four-year degree on
()
14 a part-time basis could take you ten years.
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
And you have to keep up for eight 16 or ten years and apparently what they are finding is that a 17 relatively large number starts but year after year they are 18 dropping out.
There are fewer and fewer left and vary few 19 are able to go through in ten years and really accomplish 20 it.
21 So they look at that that while that program is 22 good and helpful, it's not a very feasible one to complete 23 and they don't think that many of them would be able to do 24 it and therefore their career will be blocked.
25 We have received a fair number of comments in the
(
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
23 1
shift supervisor option for the_ ABET accreditation.
Now,.
2 that was new.
We obviously didn't have those comments in-l l
3 the previous version.
And to a large extent, they were
(
4 negative.
They were concerned that some of the programs,..
t 5
like the ones where the utilities might not be ABET 6
accredited, so now they work for this eight or ten years-and 7
then they don't' qualify because it wasn't properly 8
accredited.
And those are because many engineers, who have-9 engineering degrees, don't even know if their school-was 10 accredited when they received their degree.
And there might l
11 be some disqualified now because of the ABET accreditation.
12 They felt it was too specific and maybe there was no need 13 for such a specificity in the rule.
14 MR. CARROLL:
Just on that subject,'do I remember 15 correctly that MIT's graduate programs in nuclear 16 engineering are no longer accredited?
17 DR. KERR:
Very few graduate programs in anything 18 are accredited.
19 DR. REMICK:
It's undergraduate work.
These are-20 undergraduate degrees.
21 MR. CARROLL:
Oh, okay. Fine.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
For example, a person who might 23 have had a degree in physics, a Bachelor's Degree in 24 Physics, and then maybe gone for a Ph.D. or a Masters in P.5 Nuclear Engineering, would not meet the. criteria of ABET Heritage Reporting Corporation.
.(202) 628-4888
24
().
I accreditation.
2 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
And finally we' received a number 3
of comments which related to labor agreements.
4 DR. REMICK:
I assume you are anticipating our 5
question about what does that mean?
'6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
I would like to say a few 7
more words, but I am looking for some of the comments that 8-we made here.
9 There were two types of comments on the labor 10 agreement.
One of them is--by the way, this happens to be 11 Comment No. 10 on page 6 of'the Draft Commission statement.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Unfortunately, mine are multiple 13 sheets of the same page.
14 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Oops.
You don't have page 67
}
15 MR. CARROLL:
No.
I've got lots of page l's if 16 anybody needs one.
17 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Sorry about that.
I think we have 18 an extra copy for you which hopefully will have page 6.
19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
There were two types of comments 20 relative to the labor agreements.
One of them is that labor 21 agreements usually are specifying educational requirements 22 if such exist, and they normally don't have requirements, 23 educational requirements, degree requirements for these 24 positions, so they felt that if a rule would be passed, it 25 would be kind of in contrast or in conflict with existing Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
_ _ _ __a
1 25 i
.1
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1 labor' agreements.
s 2
The other set of comments were along the lines i
'3 that the operators who are running the plant are union 4
members and the degreed people typically are not union 5
members.
There are some' labor agreements available of the 6'
machines really for their training and there would be some 7
interference.- They might not'be able-to get the experience 8
or the number of years of experience'that would be required.
9 Our basic evaluation of this was that in 10 connection with the first one, if a rule would be issued, it 11 would take precedence over labor agreements, which would 12 mean that in the future labor agreements would have to meet 13 that rule
()
14 DR. KERR:
Yes.
But I think--
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Of-cmtrse, the unions indicated 16 that that would be one reason why'they would oppose the 17 enactment of--
]
18 DR. KERR:
I think you may be mistaken i'n that I
19 evaluation because I don't think a rule can.be contrary to j
i 20 federal policy, for example.
I mean, for example, you could 21 not have a rule that discriminated against-women in today's i
22 present climate.
And here the unions are saying that they i
23 would go to court and if labor practices are followed, and 24 one needs to show some reason for.a. requirement.
It can't l
25 be capricious.
So I would say that unless--if they did Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
26 1-choose to litigate, you,would have to. demonstrate a need for
(}
2 the rule.
I mean very likely..
3 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's correct.-
We. agree with-4 you.
What I meant to.say was that if the= rule would survive 5
the challenge, the unions indicated that they would 6
' challenge it.
And if it would survive the challenge, and if 7
it would. stay in effect, then the rule would be the driving 8
force and from there on the laborfagreement.would have-to be 9-prepared in such a way that it doesn't contradict the rule.'
10 In connection with the: experience to be gained,--
11 DR. KERR:
It's also interesting to me the 12 sentence that says " Labor agreement should not discriminate 13 against people with college degrees." ' It's not clear.to me 14 that anybody was saying that they-discriminated-against 15 them--
16 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It wasn't completely clear to us 17 either.
We didn't have the opportunity to talk to the 18 individuals who made the comments.
But the.way the comments 19 were made, it sounded like it could be the case in some 20 cases.
And, again, our evaluation is that if there is 21-anyplace where that's the case, it certainly should be--the 22 labor agreements should be drafted in such a way that there 23 is no discrimination against those who don't have degrees i
1 l
24 and no discrimination against those who do have degrees as i
25 long as both are permitted to enter into the program.
O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
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27 i
l' 'J t
1 That completes I think the discussion that relates
{
L 2
to the public comments.
1 3
DR. KERR:
I have one or two questions.
On page 4 j
4 of your summary that you've just been looking at, under the 5
response there is a statement, " Academic training and j
i 6
engineering disciplines will assist operators in addressing 7
complex technical problems."
8 What was the sense of that statement?
It seemed 9
to be sort of a non sequitur to--
10 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
What page number was that?
11 DR. KERR:
Comment No. 3 to the response.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Okay.
13 DR. KERR:
If somebody just had an extra sentence 14 that was surplus on a previous paper and decided to stick it 15 in there, I would understand, but otherwise I can't quite 16 see what it has to do with anything.
17 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Now let us take that comment into 18 consideration.
19 MR. CARROLL:
I think it's responding to 3 (b) on 20 the bottom of--
l 21 DR. KERR:
Well, I think they thought they were l
22 too, but it doesn't seem like--and then at the bottom of the I
23 same page, "We believe that operators with degrees and an 24 aggressive approach by utility management is necessary to 25 fully integrate operational expertise and to upper l
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Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
28
- ( )
1 management of the utilities."
2 That may be an article.of faith of religion, but 3
where does one find support for such a vehicle?
I mean I 4
don't want to deprive a man of his beliefs, but--
5 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Which page'are you on?
6 DR. KERR:
I'm on=page 4, at the very bottom of 7-the.page.
8 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
At the bottom of the page.
9 DR. KERR:'
It's the'last sentence at the bottom of 10 the page.
It.seems to indicate that in order to have 11 operational expertise in upper management, there have to be 12 people both with degrees and operating experience.
I mean 13 in the' same person.
And I'd say that it's a great belie _f,
- O 14
"=t--
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It's a general belief I believe on 16 the Commission that it would be beneficial if there would be 17 people like that.
18 DR. KERR:
Oh, if you had said five Commissioners 19 believed this, then I would--
20 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
This probably' states that the 21 staff believes that.
22 DR. KERR:
- Yeah, 23 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That the staff believes that there 24 would be benefit if utility management would include people 25 who would have both these experiences and it encourages the Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L_
29
()
1 utility management to take steps in.the direction so that-2 there would be more and more.of these.
3 DR. KERR:
Does the staff really believe that 4
that's the only way to have fully integrated operational
'5 expertise into upper management?
6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The only way, maybe not.
I don't 7
know if we used these words.
8 DR. KERR.:
Well, it says, "is.necessary."
To me 9
that means you've got to do it that way.
Well, I think one 10
. would have difficulty convincing even oneself in a 11 thoughtful mode that that's the case.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Let us take a look at that one 13 also.
But I think that the intent--the necessary part, the
()
14 intent was that it would apply to the utilities:to take some 15 effort in this direction.
In other words, it won't come on 16 its own if they don't promote it, if they don't do something 17 conscious in this direction and probably won't develop very 18 fast.
19 MR. CARROLL:
You could add to this list of five 20 Commissioners that believe and the staff that believes.
You 21-could also add to that input, because they are. pushing the 22 same theme as a particle of faith perhaps.
I 23 DR. KERR:
Well, you know, let's take--would you i
[
24 say the same thing about American Airlines, for example.
=25 That you've got to have people at the top level of Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
30
(
l management who have been or are licensed pilots in order to 2
run a safe airline?
3 MR. CARROLL:
No.
But I don't think that's a good 4
analogy, Bill.
5 DR. KERR:
I think it is.
6 MR. CARROLL:
I don't think you need any utility 7
company, for example, that the CEO be a former licensed 8
operator.
But somebody pretty high up in the organization l
9 probably should have had some operating background.
10 Certainly the so-called DP nuclear, as the generic title--
11 MR. WARD:
Should that be a regulation?
12 MR. CARROLL:
No.
But I'm saying as a long-term 13 goal I think a lot of people, including myself, believe--
()
14 DR. KERR:
I don't think it's a bad idea, Jay.
15 But I just don't think that it is something that is 16 necessary--well, I'd like to have somebody convince me that 17 it's necessary, because you look at organizations and 18 certainly it doesn't hurt anybody to have had operational 19 experience and he has some insights that otherwise he might j
20 not have.
But there may be plenty of people who don't have i
21 or don't need this and that are perfectly capable of doing i
22 management, it seems to me.
23 I mean, this begins--in fact, it worries me that 24 the NRC is getting more and more into telling utilities how 25 to manage an operation rather than regulating it.
Now, this
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Heritage Reporting Corporation i
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1 just seems to me to be an sxample of-that sort of thing.
2 It's sort of saying, you know, here's the way you ought to 3
structure your upper management.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Well, it's Roberts' second point.
l 5
We do not have the responsibility for managing nuclear plant 6
operations.
Therefore I question the appropriateness of the 7
Commission and the Policy Statement recommending to 8
licensees that they implement personnel policies dealing 9
with career paths and educational assistance programs.
10 DR.-REMICK:
Mr. Telford.
11 MR. TELFORD:
Tom Telford.
12 Dr. Kerr, are you reading the sentence.to say that 13 the staff believes that it's necessary to have these people
()
14-in upper management?
Or are you reading the sentence to 15 say--
16 DR. KERR:
Well, it simply says, "He believe that 17 operators with degrees and an aggressiveLapproach by utility 18 management is necessary to fully integrate operational 19 expartise into upper management of the utilities."
20 Now, I'm not quite sure I know what the sentence 21 means-22 DR. REMICK:
It's a poor sentence.
It really is.
23 Putting aside whether it's right or not, I have read it 24 about six times and I'm not quite sure what the words are 25 trying to say.
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
f 32' O
1 sa. r=tronD=:
rh r thet entence 1 trvine to l
-2 say that there's two' conditions necessary'-in order to 3
achieve these people into positions.in upper management.
.)
L
'4
.Not necessarily that they should'be.in upper management.
1 5
DR..KERR:. Well,1in other words,.in order to be-6 upper management, they have:to be' operators down there with j
7 degrees.
8 MR. TELFORD:
And you'have'to have.an aggressive 9
approach by utility management'or-they'll never get there.'
10 DR. REMICK:
-But aggressive approach.to do.what?
11 What is an aggressive management supposed to do?
Those 12 words are missing.
I can infer what is meant. -You want
.13 them to aggressively pursue getting expertise'into
()
14-management positions,'but the words don't say it.-
So-you-15 talk about having' aggressive managers and operators with 16 degrees,.-and~somehow~this is going'to integrate expertise.
17 It's a poor sentence.
18 MR. TELFORD:
I agree,..I agree.-
' F 19 DR. REMICK:
It's-a poorly written-sentence.
20 MRe TELFORD:
I didn't want'.to misunderstand where 21 the emphasis is.
It seems like.the emphasis.should be, in 22 this sentence, on two conditions necessary to achieve that-23 goal.
Not necessarily that the staff believes that these 24 people ought to be in upper management.
25 DR.-KERR:
What is the goalRnow that's being-Heritage Reporting. Corporation (202) 628-4888'
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33 ggg 1
achieved?
2 MR. FLEISHMAN:
To.get operational expertise into 3
upper management.
And I guess the feeling was that the most 4
likely way of getting that is by having operators with 5
degreec and by having management try to get people--
6 DR. KERR:
Operational expertise, it seems to me, 7
does not necessarily mean that you have to be a licensed 8
operator.
I mean to operate--I mean you have people who are 9
resporcible for the operation of a nuclear plant who are not 10 licenced operators, and it seems to me after five or six 11 years in a position if they do well, they have plenty of 12 operational expertise.
13 Is the positio.. of the staff that one has to have g
been a licensed operator in order to have operational 14 15 expertise?
I would hope not.
16 MR. TELFORD:
What position are you talking about 17 for four or five years?
18 DR. KERR:
Well, let's taka Vice President of 19 Nuclear, example.
20 MR. TELFORD:
Okay.
21 DR. KERR:
Is it the position of the staff that in 22 order to be a good Vice President of Nuclear, one has had to 23 be a licensed operator?
Or that it's even desirable--highly 24 desirable?
25 MR. TELFORD:
With all due respect, I think you lll Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
341 f(}
11
' are turning ' the question around on us.-
I think what we are:
21 trying to say is that weLbelieve that the operators have the 3
' operating experience quite'obviously.
And if we allow those.
4 peopleito get an education, and if we have a. management ~that 5
makes:the opportunities.available, that's.the way to get
~
6 them to upper management.-
7 We are not saying that vice president of--
8 DR. KERR:
But why.do you necessarily want1to get 9
operators into upper management?
10 MR. TELFORD:
We're not saying that we do.
We:are 11 saying that if you want to,, that's how you do it..
12 DR. KERR:
So you are neutral.about whether you 13 want.to get operators into upper management or not.
(}
. Well, as'far as the~ response to 14 SR. TELFORD:
15 these public comments goes, yes.
16 DR. KERR:
I'm not talking about the response to' 17 the public comments.
I'm talking about what.is the position 18 of the staff and the Commission?' That you want to get 19 operators into upper management or not?
Because my j
20 impression, and apparently it was Mr. Roberts' impression as 21 well, was that the Commission felt that there ought to be a 22 clear career path for operators to get into upper 23 management.
24 MR. FLEISHMAN:
Some operators.
I think the
-25 intent is that there be some individuals in the upper
()
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35
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1 management-who have had reactor operating experience and I 2
think they use some words in there that one of the way to 3
get that experience is that they should either qualify or 4
reach the level of passing the NRC exam.
In other words, I
5 that they would be SRO licensed or certified under the'old 6
words and so forth, l
(
7 It's not in this, but it's in the discussion of 8
the Policy Statement that the Commission is proposing that.
I 9
MR. WARD:
The Policy Statement says--I apologize 10 for being a little behind in this--
11 DR. REMICK:
You are forgiven, Dave.
12 MR. WARD:
I tried to figure it out.
i 13 DR. KERR:
We're a little behind too, Dave.
(')
14 MR. WARD:
You know, what the Policy Statement is 15 actually requiring or encouraging, is the word.
16 DR. REMICK:
Encouraging.
17 MR. WARD:
And it says--the third encourage that I 18 can find says, "We encourage licensees to provide 4
l 19 opportunities for licensed operators and others with nuclear i
20 plant operating experience."
It assumes positions of 21 increased management responsibilities.
So it seems that the 22 Commission must have some (inaudible) 23 MR. CARROLL:
This is a draft Policy Statement 24 that these fellows derived so the Commission has not 25 formally considered it.
1 i
'O s_)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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MR. 3 WARD:- Oh, okay.
But-this is.what they want 1 the Commission to say.
3 DR. KERR:: And that's because they think that this 4
.is'.what the Commission wants the Commission to'say. -Isn't 5
it?
6 MR. WYLIE:
I. guess the reason we're going through
~7 the' comments here on-the proposed rule is to get the:
8 thinking of the staff and Commission in their response.- We 9
haven't gotten to the Policy Statement yet.
10 MR. FLEISHMAN:
This one statement about the '
11 Policy Statement. LThe staff basically provided facts, 12 provided a draft to the Commissioners' staff-.actually.
And 13 this actual Policy Statement was drafted at'the Commission
()
14 level.
So this, I would saf, probably reflects pretty 15 closely the Commissioners' general feeling.
16 DR. REMICK:
.I wouldn't be surprised if what you 17 are saying is true.
Yeah.
That it represents the general 18 feeling of the Commission.
19' MR. FLEISHMAN.
Or some Commissioners.
20 DR.'REMICK:
Or some Commissioners, yes.
21 MR. TELFORD:
But let'us fix this sentence.
l 22 DR. REMICK:
Yeah.
It is not a clear sentence.
l 23 Do you want to proceed, Zoltan?
24 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Okay.
We finished with the 25 comments..
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888
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37'
]
h 1
The next page lists the development of the. Policy.
2
-Statement.
The Policy Statement package that-you'have 3
. received and everything that you'see from here on is nothing l
4 but kind of a summary of what's in the. Policy Statement,that; 5
you have already read.
6 In the Introductory parts'it acknowledges that 7
progress has been already made.
Many utilities have-8 provided opportunities for individuals for education while 9
they are working.
10 INFO has developed the principles of enhancing 11 professionals in nuclear personnel.
And they.also have a 12
' program on the way.to give you the training and' educational-13 requirements for shift supervisors.
O 14 "ac' or co=r
,i v rror i=9 it re vo= idi11tv 15 in terms of monitoring technical knowledge:of operating i
16 personnel.
17 And the Commission in general doesn't feel that 18 the present level of training is not sufficient.
19 However, the Commission is looking forward to 20 measures that would further improve the operating staff's -
21 capability.
22 The Policy Statement then states that engineering
)'
23 and technical knowledge on shift has a direct bearing on.
24-safety.
They state that'it does have a direct bearing on' i
25 safety.
J 1
1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 l
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38 1
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1 DR. KERR:
Do you know what that sentence means?
LJ 2
I mean, does it mean, for example, that the greater the 3
expertise, the greater will be the safety?
Or the greater 4
the level of engineering and technical knowledge, the 5
greater will be the safety?
6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It means that if you look at the 7
operators of the plant as a team, so all of them together 8
who are running the plant at a given time, if that team has 9
a greater engineering knowledge, then in general they 10 believe that that would lead in a safer handling of the 11 plant especially in unusual or abnormal situations.
12 DR. KERR:
See, it doesn't quite say that.
That's 13 the reason I asked.
It doesn't say a linear relationship
(~}
14 between the two.
It says it has a direct bearing on.
(>
15 DR. REMICK:
Inverse.
16 DR. KERR:
I don't know.
I mean it strikes me as 17 being sort of a waffling statement and I wondered if it was 18 deliberating waffling or if it just came out that way.
19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I think it probably just came out 20 that way.
I think just from the previous discussions that 21 we heard from the Commissioners, most of them are convinced 22 that if there is an operating crew on shift when something 23 unusual happened, if that crew has a stronger engineering 24 background and understanding, that that could be very handy.
I 25 Now, they hope that in many situations there will i
1 f)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
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39 i
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1 be no real need for that.
In other words, even without that
]
2 knowledge, based on the current training and instructions 3
and manuals, they should be able to handle it.
1 4
DR. KERR:
See, even in the next sentence, the 5
Commission doesn't believe that the safety will be enhanced, 6
but rather it believes that it may be enhanced.
Do you 7
notice?
\\
8 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
9 DR. KERR:
So, again, it seems to me the 10 Commission isn't entirely convinced.
And add to'that 11 Roberts' concern stated in the Policy Statement that 12
" Greater knowledge and operating experience would be 13 beneficial to safety raises two questions.
()
14 "First, will the public infer that the' Commission 15 believes current knowledge and experience are in adequate or 16 at best marginally adequate.
17 "Second, if greater knowledge and experience would 1
I 18 be beneficial to safety, will the public and the Congress 19 question why we aren't requiring it.
20 DR. REMICK:
Well, I'm cure that's why they made 21 the statement the first bullet.
22 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
23 DR. REMICK:
To cover that, j
24 MR. CARROLL:
Which bullet is that?
l I
25 DR. REMICK:
The very first bullet at the top of l
l
(,)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)~ 628-4888 t
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40 f) 1-the Policy Statement.
2 DR. KERR:
My Policy Statement doesn't have a d
3 bullet.
i
.4 DR..REMICK:
The Vu-Graph.
1 l
5 DR. KERR:
Oh,.okay..
l 6
DR.'REMICK:
They are making a statement, The 7-level-of engineering and technical knowledge on shift- "
8 Oh, I'm sorry.
I shouldn't have said the first.
Where'was 9
that?
10 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
There was one on the previous
-11 page.
12 DR. REMICK:
On,-I'm sorry.
It's the next to last 13 bullet on the previous page.
(}
14' DR. KERR:
I'm reading from page 8 of what I 15 think--
16 DR. REMICK:
They made the statement th'at they are 17 convinced that the existing level of technical knowledge is 18 sufficient for safe operation and ensures protection of the
-19 public health and safety.
20 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
That's the first bullet, but 21 the first couple of sentences of the Policy Statement aren't 22 exactly consistent.
"The' Commission believes that the level 23 of engineering and technical knowledge of shift operating 24 personnel has a direct bearing on the safety of nuclear 25 power plants.
O aeritaee Regereine Cerroraesen (202)' 628-4888 i
l
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41
-1 "Accordingly, the Commission believes that the 2
safety may be enhanced'by having on each shift a-team of 3
.NRC-licensed professionals to define technical and academic 4
knowledge."
5 So they believe'it may be enhanced.
6 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I guess because, as the ACRS said, 7
there's no direct information to show that having a degree
-8 will actually help safety.
9 DR. KERR:
No, but see, the term " believes" takes 10 you out of that.
I mean the Commission can believe that-11 ~
even though there's no evidence to support it.
But they 12 don't believe that.
They just believe it may be enhanced.
13 Not it will be.
14 I'm just a little bit--if I were the Commission O
15 and believed something very strongly, I wouldn't write it 16 this way, but--
17 MR. FLEISHMAN:
We should say, "will be enhanced."
18 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It's qualified twice maybe.
19 DR. REMICK:
Well, I can see the problem they get 20 into.
You say "will" and the question is why don't you 21 require it?
If you know it will enhance--
22 MR. WARD:
Well, Roberts has stated (inaudible) 23 DR. REMICK:
Very well.
24 MR. WARD:
I mean the reasoning for the Policy 25 Statement is (inaudible) l O
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 I
42 j
(o) 1 DR. REMICK:
Well, remember what the Policy l
l 2
Statement is going to do.
We haven't gotten to it yet and 3
that encourage basically.
It's going to encourage people.
4 It's not requiring anything.
And that's because the 5
Commission apparently thinks that may enhance safety.
6 MR. WARD:
But I've got a problem--well, we are 7
going to talk about that.
8 MR. CARROLL:
If they believe it may enhance, why 9
aren't they requiring it?
10 MR. WARD:
Yeah.
I mean if there is--
11 DR. KERR:
And if it needs enhancing.
12 MR. WARD:
You know, if there are some bases and, 13 you know, scientific fact or if these experts who are the
()
14 Commissioners make the judgment that it will enhance, then 15 it really doesn't--there isn't any more justification for a 16 Policy Statement than there is for--I've got a problem with 17 the whole Policy Statement idea as sort of a weak compromise 18 or something.
A political compromise and I realize that's--
19 but if there's not an objective, a necessity or even a 20 desirability that can be shown for a rule, I think there's 21 lacking an objective, a necessity or desirability for the 22 Policy Statement.
23 DR. REMICK:
Oh, I think there's quite a 24 difference, Dave.
For a rule, you should have I think some 25 good solid basis for placing additional requirements, like i
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1 originally were proposed, tied to improving safety.
2 If they become convinced they don't have that 1
3 technical evidence, yet they have the guts feeling that 4
having some people with degrees on shift is a good thing and
{
l 5
it will also lead to more people going into management, and j
i 6
therefore they are saying that may enhance safety, and 7
therefore our policy is we'd like to encourage you-to do i
8 that type of thing.
And I don't see that you have to have 9
an ironclad technical proof of that, since it's the 10 Commission's guts feeling that it will enhance safety.
11 MR. WARD:
You can use that same gut feeling to 12 justify a rule.
There are rules that have been justified.
13 DR. REMICK:
Well, unfortunately--
()
14 MR. WARD:
I mean like most of them perhaps, or 15 many of them.
4 1
16 DR. KERR:
Well, let's take the ar.ea in which at 17 least several of the Commission have the raost experience i
18 insofar as operating nuclear power plants is concerned.
19 My impression is that many of those underseas 20 nuclear power plants are operated by pacple who don't.have 21 degrees.
Isn't that the case?
22 MR. CARROLL:
They have an engineer on duty.
23 Engineering officer of the watch, who probably doesn't know 24 as much about running it as a good chief.
25 DR. KERR:
I'll bet you that's the case.
l l
'%)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 l
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l' MR. CARROLL:
The old saying is that the navy is p
%_J 2
run by the chiefs.
3 DR. KERR:
And there is not a very good pathway.
4 for promotion _from the. licensed operator position.through
(
i 5
upper management in the navy, it seems to me.
But I can't j
6 see that interferes a lot with power plant safety.
J 7
MR. WARD:
How do you know?
How can you make
'l 8
that-statement?
9 DR. KERR:
I said I can't see that it does.
10 MR. WARD:
I mean maybe the navy would be better 11-off-12 DR. KERR:
Well, it might be.
13 MR. MARD:
.I don't know-how safe they.are.
14 DR. KERR:
I don't either.
15 MR. CARROLL:
Well, for years, well into the
-i 16 sixties, for example, General Electric had a policy of not 17 allowing anyone without a degree be a shift supervisor.
And 18 that really caused them grief.
The smart technicians--some 19 of the degreed people got along-nell-with them, and it 20 worked out okay.
But there was a lot of resentment.
"I 21 can't get promoted."
And these technicians--I've seen them l
22 just destroy young engineers who came into be their shift i
l l
23 supervisors, so it's a mixed question in my mind.
24 If the degreed guy has got the background, it l
25 isn't.a terrible situation.
Presumably in most cases that's
(~N Heritage Reporting Corporation 1
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the way the. navy does it.
2 MR. WYLIE:.You'know, one of the things we said in 3
our letter of two years ago is that we think that theLdepth 4
of the concern about. adverse effects of the proposed rule--
5?
the Policy-Statement, I'd read into that--but.should be 6
reconsidered.
And-I haven't'seen any effort 1on the part of 7
the Commission staff or anyone to' react to that'ACRS 8
recommendation.
9-MR. WARD: 'What would be the adverse effect of.the 10 proposed Policy Statement?'
11 MR. CARROLL:.Given particularly, Dave, that'INPO 12 is saying about the same thing in their= professionalism 13 document.
Presumably it's what the industry itself thinks
()
14 they ought to do.
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I'm not-sure if we understand your 16 interpretation of the adverse effects for the Policy 17 Statement.
We understand the --
relative-to the rule and 18 the adverse effects were, as I recall, were more_along of 19 blocking their career paths or so.
But those would not be 20 the case with the Policy Statement anymore.
21 MR. MARD:
I'm sorry.
I mean the difference 22 between the' Policy Statement and the rule just.seems to be a l
23 matter of degree and not kind.
I mean some of the 24 Commission comments in the Policy-Statement were the fact 25 that it should, you know, incorporate the same elements that Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
46 1
the rule did.
2.
,So:a' Policy, Statement is something that's goingLto-
'3 say. pretty much the same thing the rule did butLyou are.only 4
going.to get.80' percent compliance with it.
5 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
No.. There's a huge difference.
6
.In one. case, in the case of a rule, there-is a' requirement, 7-and certain persons, whoever it' applies.to, they--would be 8
required to.have the degree beyond the certain date.
9 Otherwise they just'can't.get'to that position.
10 MR. WARD:
No, I understand.
'.I understand.
11 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
The' Policy Statement, there is noj 12 cutoff along those lines.
The utilities would have the 13 option to promote people without~a-degree as they wish..
()-
14 MR. WARD:
They would-have.the option'to, but they 15 would be looking over their shoulders and feeling their arms' 16 twisted.
I mean that's what a Policy Statement is.
It's an 17 arm-twisting process instead of just a straight-out rule.-'A 18 regulation.
]
19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
We don't.look at it the same way.
20 We don't look at it--
21 MR. WARD:
How do you look at it?
22 MR.'ROSZTOCZY:
I think utilities are not looking l
23 at it the same way either.
I R24 DR. KERR:
You look at what is~ happening in the j
1 25 utility business and I see this by reading correspondence.
i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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'l There are two cases recently in which at least one plant 2
particularly that had been looked at as a very well run-3 plant,'was suddenly picked'out by the Commission and put on 4
a hit list of the ten worst plants or something.
As a 5
result of which the vice president and the general managers.
6 of the plants were shifted to within the utility.
All of 7
this, not on the basis of any-rules that were--any serious 8
infraction of rules, but because somebody in the Commission 9
decided that they were getting complacent.
10 Some of that sort of things is happening in 11 another utility.
I mean the utilities are beginning to 12 recognize that.all that has to happen that somebody in the-13 Commission has to get a little unhappy with them, and all
(,)
14 sorts of this kind begin happening.
15 And it's based on things which don't involve any 16 rules.
Things like SALP reports that are completely 17 subjective.
And these guys are really getting worried about 18 things that don't have to do any more with formal 19 requirements but with things like Policy Statement and 20 things that are even more tenuous than Policy Statements.
21 Believe me, it is occurring.
22 DR. REMICK:
I'm having trouble reading Dave and 23 Bill.
Are you saying that you don't think it's a good idea l
1 1
24 that there be some people as operators or senior operators 1
25 or shift supervisors that have degrees, that it's not a good
)
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,O 1
idea to have some. degrees'on shift?
. s_/
2 DR. :KERR:
I'm saying that I don't see why it 3
should be Commission policy.
To me Commission policy means 4
something that the Commission would like to put into effect.
5 I can see that it might be a good idea,-but I think'that 6
.ought to be a' prerogative of management.
And it's not 7--
something--
8 DR. REMICK:
And you think it's wrong for the 9
Commission to state--to encourage people to do that, what 10 they think is a good idea?'
11 DR.'KERR:
I think the Commission should be J
12 concerned with an adequate amount of-safety in nuclear power 13 plants.
And if there's something that says that you can't
{}
have an adequate level of. safety without doing this, then-14 15 the Commission ought to try to formulate rules to see that 16 that occurs.
17 If it's a matter of improving things beyond that 18 adequate level of safety, it seems to me that's not the 19 Commission's responsibility.
Or if it's a matter of 20 managing a firm well so it makes more money or something 21 like that, you know, I just think that's not what the 22 Commission is responsible for.
23 DR. REMICK:
I agree partly with what you are 24 saying, but I'm not sure that I would say that you shouldn't 1
25 issue a Policy Statement though, if you have something which 1
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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()
1.
you think.is good advice.
2.
DR. KERR:
What.is a Policy' Statement?
To me, a-3 Policy Statement means that this is the Commission's policy.
4 Which meens to me that.it's something that the-Commission 5
will try to.put into~effect by whatever means.
i 6
DR. RJMICK:
You cancread a policy that way, but.a.
7-Policy Stat'ement can also--
8 DR.'KERR:- What does a policy mean to you--
9 DR. REMICK:
--this is what we believe and 10 therefore we'd like to encourage you to do this'for the 11 future.
We are not requiring it.
We are encouraging yau to 12 do this.
13 MR. WARD:
But if there's not a firm enough--let's.
()
14 say, technical justification for there to be airule,.then 15 what business--I mean if the Commission is so uncertain-16 about this subject, it doesn't believe that-there is enough 17 solid information to insist on a rule, what business does it 18 have encouraging the utilities to do this?
1 19 DR. REMICK:
I can't believe I'm hearing this.
20' MR. WARD:
What?
l 21' DR. REMICK:
I can't believe I'm hearing this.
I 22 MR. WARD:
You know, the Policy Statement and the 23 encouragement is going to push the utilities in the same L
l 24 direction toward the same set of practices that the rule l
25 would.
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l 50 ll-DR. REMICK: 'But not'with specific requirements
(
2
_that every shift supervisor or every senior operator have a 3
degree and that it be.this type offdegree or that type.ofu 4
degree.
It's none of_that.
I guess I can't see why the 5
Commission can't state.what it thinks is good advice but not
- 6 require it.
To let people know where it stands.
7 MR. WARD:
It's advice.
q
'8-DR. EEMICK:
It's: encouragement.
9 MR. CARROLL:
I wonder if the word " policy" is 10 Lwhere our problem-is.- My way of thinking of a management-11 policy is they enunciate something and expect'it to be, 12
-implemented.through some-lower tier procedures.
d 13 MR. HARD:
That's right.
And that's what-the NRC 14 Policy Statement are meant to do.
One way or another.
,/ )
15 MR. CARROLL:
It may work out that way but it 16 looks like this is a stand-alone Policy ~ Statement.
There 17 would be nothing below it.
3 18 MR. WARD:
But there is going to be something 19 below it--I guess I think the Commission is getting almost j
20 sort of intellectually lazy sort of..
It can't'make up its 21 mind about what rules there should be and so it's, well, 22 this is kind of a little bit of a half-baked. idea.
We don't 23 have a real good basis for it, but let's just make it a 24 Policy Statement.
Pretty soon it's out there--(inaudible) 25 MR. CARROLL:
I can see--
I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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MR. WARD:.Because people ~are reacting to it'much
.% f 2
the same.as they would be to.a rule;
~
3 MR. CARROLL:
What does the Regional Administrator-4 do with this document? LWhat does the Resident Inspector'do i
5 with-it?
Does he say,."Well,'I'm going to.go talk to'the-6 Lutilities in my region or to the management of the plantII'm 7
the Resident Inspector in-and find out.what the hell;they.
8 are doing on this."
~
9-MR. ROSZTOCZY:
.If a Policy Statement is. issued,-
10 it basically would not be for the use of. inspectors or'the
~
11 regions, but the.more direct _ communication from the 12
-Commission to the nuclear industry, both those who manage 13 it, the utilities, and those_toward the individual operators
(" }
14 who are working in the plants.
And-it.would be also'an 15 expression of the Commission's position toward the public.
16 So the public would also see where-the Commission stands and 17 what they encourage.
18 But there is nothing in it.which would be 19 enforceable in any way, so nothing which in that-sense it 20 would be subject to inspection or enforcement.
21 MR. CARROLL:
I don't think the regions would view I
i 22 it the way you are..They would'say, " Gosh, if the l
23 Commissioners put this thing out, I ought to do something.
24 with it."
i 25 MR. TELFORD:
Mr. Carroll, in 1977 at Valecitos, l
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I when the USGS. thought they~ discovered a-fault' closer to the'
.2
' reactor than they previously had designe'dLfor, the NRC 3:
issued a Show Cause Order to shut.the. reactor down..They 4
didn't issue a Policy Statement.
I 5~
MR. CARROLL:-
Okay;
_]
.4
'6' MR. TELFORD:- Solif the Commission wants to do 7
something,fthey issue a. rule.
And I believe that'sLthe way-8 the regional administrators. fully interpret Policy-Statement 9
versus 10 CFR amendments.
10 MR. CARROLL:-
Yes.-
11 MR. TELFORD: -This is notLpolicy.
12 MR. CARROLL:
I am not saying that if a Regional 13 Administrator had this document and.went outLto a plantLand-()
'14 they weren't doing it, he'd say,.well, the next thing is a-15 shutdown' order.
But I am saying that he's.probably going to 16 take this document and do a lot of gentle persuasion on 17 utilities that don't seem to follow the letter and spirit of 18 this thing.
19 Now, in this instance, I personally know that INPO 20 is doing the same thing.
It does raise the; question, 21 however, why is the Commission doing this if-INPO is already 22 doing it.
I have thic continuing problem where I think the 23 Commission ought to concern itself with assuring _ adequate' 24 protection and.that INPO's job is to try to promote 25 excellence in the industry.
And it looks like we're getting Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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the two muddled up in a lot of areas there.
2 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
If.anything, this Policy. Statement 3
is an encouragement'for INPO to do just that'.
4-MR.' CARROLL:
Is that.
.i 5
MR. MARD:
You don't think INFO would do what 6
they've done without the background of the' Policy Statement 7
or the discussion of the rule?
8 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Our general experience,- is that the 9
many areas they have not done or certainly would not have
~
10 done on the same time. schedule of what they did if we would 11 not have paid major attention to a given area.
12 MR. WARD:
Okay.
Well,.that would seem to 13 indicate to me that claiming support for the validity ofithe 14 Policy Statement because INPO's also doing it;is not very
~
15 logical.
In other words, I heard the argument a litt1(
16 while ago that, well, the Commissioners couldn't.be too far 17 off in encouraging this sort-of thing because, after.all, 18 INPO is encouraging it too, and INPO is closer to the
~
19 operation of the plants and utilities and so forth.
20 But now I'm hearing that really the only reason 21 perhaps INFO is encouraging it is because the Commission 22 started out with it.
23 So, you know, I don't know where--
l.
24 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
What the Commission has done i
25 throughout the years is to bring attention to certain areas l
i 1
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.:that need more of an' effort on everybody's behalf..And by V.
1 2
doing so, they certainly' encourage' INPO, among others, to d
3 do that.,
In some areas INPO picked up'on it and they did l
4 it,abecause they thought.it was a good idea.
And in other 5'
areas INPO simply stood up and said, we' don't think it's:
-]
l 6
necessary, and they didn't do it.
7 I think there is validity to both of those 8
arguments and they are not necessarily contradictory.
9 MP.. WARD:
Well, let me ask a question.about what 10 sort of result is expected from this.
In the ACRS letter we 11 quoted a statistic, 1987, and I assume they are right.
12 DR. REMICK:
They were.
The number of' people--
13 yes, they were.
O
- 14 an
"^*o:
ox r-ra v ta ia 198o' 17 verc== or 15 SROs had baccalaureate degrees.
In '87, it had gone up to 16 28 percent.
I assume in '88, and somebody might even have 17 the figure, it might be something higher.than that.
18 Okay.
Now, you must'have a vision of what 1995 is 19 going to be like with what it would be.like presumably with 20 the rule.
If this is what the rule said, in 1995 there 21 would be 100 percent.
'22 MR. CARROLL:
No, grandfathered.
1 23 MR. WARD:
Okay.
It would be some percentage in 24 1995.
Now, what percentage--that would be fairly 25 predictable just from the statistics--with just the Policy Beritage Repo.rting Corporation (202) 628-4888
55 s
1 Statement presumably that percentage in '1995 is going to be 2
something less than X or whatever could be predicted for the 3
rule.
But how mttch less?
4' MR. ROSZTOCZY:
First, you have to be.very careful 5
with the statement ~that you~ quoted there.
There are two 6
6 types of licensed reactor operators.
One type, those who 7
are actually running'the plant.
And the others are other.
8 people-in the' utility organization.
For example, engineer 9
managers who do have a license--
10 MR. MARD:
Hobby licenses.
11 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Hobby licenses.
Who are there, 12 but unfortunately that. statistic is not available according 13 to the breakdown.
But there's some discussion of-~
( ).
14 MR. CARROLL:
Zoltan, to maintain even a hobby 15 license you've got to go through requal training.
You've 16 got to serve time on shift.
So it's not'just having a piece 17 of paper framed on your wall.
18 DR. REMICK:
Time on shift if it's active.
If 19 it's inactive, why, you don't.
You still have to go through 20 requal.
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
My comment is not as much 22 towards those people who have that license, but more toward 23 the other.
But if you ask the question of what percentage 24 of those who are actually running the plant on shift 25 continuously, how many of those have ' degrees, I think that Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
1 1
56-1-
-is an entirely ~different number than what you have there.
}
2 And unfortunately we' don't have that number.
3' MR. WARD:
Okay.
Well, putting that aside--in 4-fact, this number really may be the more pertinent one.
5 Maybe what~you are really interested in is the mix of, you
^6 know, from the safety enhancement of' operations.
7 MR.-ROSZTOCZY:
Not really.
Because what you are.
8 interested in is the people who'are on shift when something 9
happens in the plant.
10 MR. WARD:'
No.
There's two different things now.
11 That's one reason.
You think that a degree.is going to help
- L2 that person on shift do a better job in an emergency.
13 You also think that it's going to help the 14 organization in the long run so this statistic may be valid
)
15 for the second reason.
16 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's correct.
17 MR. WARD:
But what I'm trying to find out is 18 would you be happy if that just stays at 28 percent after 19 the Policy Statement goes out?
You know, ten years after-20 the Policy Statement goes out?
Will you be happy if it's 21 still at 28 percent?
22 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
If they would find that the 28 23 percent means that the so-called hobby licenses all have
-24 degrees, let's say.
Let's say that 30 percent of those and-25 70 percent of the others.
That practically all of those-Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
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(_)
1 have degrees, then it would be certainly encouraging along 2
the lines that some of the people in the main organization.
3 Not the shift operators, but the main organization, have 4
people with practical experience of running the plant.
5 So that would probably take care of or be-6 encouraging toward one question.
But then if you look at 7
the other part and if you find out that those who are 8
operating the plant on shift have no engineering degree 9
except the technical advisor maybe required it, then.one 10 would feel that that's an area-where the improvement is.
11 needed.
12 And we would like to see some of those with 13 degrees.
()
14 MR. CARROLL:
I'd like to make a point that I 15 think is important, Zoltan.
16 There's another category of people besides, quote, 17 hobby licenses, and guys that are continuously on shift.
At 18 least at the utility where I used to work, we always tried 19 to have a number of extra shift supervisors, more than were 20 needed to man the shift.
Because there are always special 21 projects that you'd want to take them off to work on.
An 22 example was you needed a really experienced operational guy 23 to work with the PRA practitioners on some issue.
Or you 24 are going to replace your plant process computer.
You want 25 the task force that's going to define the new requirement to l
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
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1 have a very' experienced. operator: guy.
j 2
So a. lot of" guys;that are--and maybe after they.
3 are on that assignment for a year you, stick them back.on 4
shift f again.: But:I don't think_you canJmake a nice black-5-
and white distinction between, quote, : hobby licenses and' 6-guys that are continuously on shift.
That's the point.
7 MR. WYLIE:' And rotating his training lis'another:
8 area..
9:
MR. CARROLL:
Another' area.is training, yeah..
10 DR'. HKERR: _In the course of formulating this, I 11 assume you found out.wheth'er commercial pilots are1 required-
~
12 to have degrees.
I don't know.
I think-the answerfis that 13 they are not.
But do you know?
14-
- MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I believe.that commercial pilots
[}
15 are not required.
At the same-time, I believe that' military 16 pilots are required.
17 MR.-WARD:
Does the FAA encourage commercial 18 pilots to have degrees?
19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I don't know. I don't know.
20 DR. KERR:
All military pilots are' required to 21 have degrees?
22 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
23 DR. KERR:
That's true in the U.S.
It's not true 24 I believe in England.
l 25 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's correct.
Now, in j
h Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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' connection with other countries, I had the opportunity to 2
talk to a number of people from different. countries in the 3
nuclear business.
And what I found out there that 4
practically all their senior operators do have a degree,.but-5 they do not have a degree requirement per se.
So-nobody 6
requires a degree but almost all-their senior operators have-7 a degree.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Do they have--
9 MR.- ROSZTOCZY:
More recent ones.
They.have'some 10 older ones, but more recently people get'them.
11 MR. CARROLL:
Do they have the problem.that I was 12 talking about earlier of the operator being terminated in i
13 his career path and his boss is only different than I am I
()
14 because he's got seme degree but I know more about operating 15 the plant?
16 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
They said they don't seem to have 17 that.
Probably what--well, when I asked them what is the 18 incentive?
Why would a engineer go into.an. operating I
19 position as opposed to going to somewhere else,.almost 1
20 invariably the answer was that there are some-financial 1
21 benefits if they do this.
And typically they do it for a l
22 number of years, like ten years or so, and they don't stay J
23 with it beyond that.
From there on they go on and another
.)
l 24 will take their place.
)
1 25 But they didn't seem to have much of a conflict l
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 j
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between the degreed operators and the non-degreed operators j
2 and the advancement of either in the price of holding back 3
the other group.
They seemed to be working well together.
4 MR. CARROLL:
What level of degrees?
3 5
MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Typically Bachelor's Degree or I
6 equivalent _of Bachelor's Degree.
Like in France, I don't 7
know the exact names,.but they have a somewhat different 8
school system.
The high school is stronger and I think they 9
stay one more year in the high school.
And then they have 10 an additional two or three years on the top of that.
l 11 DR. KERR:
Associate Degree.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
They probably call it an Associate 13 Degree.
The French people believe that it's equivalent-to a j
\\
e f
14 BS in our system.
j 15 MR. CARROLL:
Because their high school and grade 16 sc.hools are better.
17 How about the Japanese?
i 18 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I did not have an opportunity to 19 talk to the Japanese on this subject so I'm not sure how 20 it's done in Japan, 21 DR. KERR:
There is a facet of this--I'm not sure 22 whether it's anecdotal or real, but at least in my i
23 experience and in the pre-nuclear days at least, the people i
24 who went to work for the utilities were people who they may 25 have been equally competent or maybe more competent, but O
V Heritage Reporting Corporation j
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61-frequently'werc at the lower end of the scale academically.
1~
2 That's not necessarily meaningful of anything.
It may be 3
that they.are better people.
4 And I would wonder if you had a requirement for-5 degreed people on the operational staff if you would select' 6
the academics in a way which you didn't.really mean to.
I 7
don't know.
I-mean you might get people who weren't as-l 8.
competent as the mix you'd get if you didn't have a degree 9
requirement.
10 DR. REMICK:
I suggest we let-Zoltan go through-11 this bullets.
I think we are into a discussion stage.
Why
(
12 don't you make sure we understand what's in the Policy 13 Statement completely, then we'll continue.
14 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
I think we were on the page
.q (d
15 just before the last one.
And maybe on the second bullet.
16 The Commission would encourage that the operating 17 staff should combine technical and academic knowledge.
And 18' they also encourage that people with degrees to obtain SO l
19 licenses.
And in converse, that shift personnel obtain 20 learning experience including learning engineering
,j i
21 fundamentals.
22 And as we mentioned earlier, the Commission 23 endorses the INPO practices for enhancing professionalism of l
24 nuclear personnel.
25 So it basically goes in both directions.
They
.i Heritage Reporting Corporation t
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l' encourage those with degrees to gain operating. experience 2
and those with operating experience to gain additional 3
engineering knowledge.
4 Going to the.last page of the handout.
They 5
encourage the utilities to have programs for their employees-6 that would make it: easier to obtain degrees.
They encourage 7
the utilities to hire college graduates into their operator 8
programs.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Your entry-level positions ~mean 10 auxiliary operator in my context.
11 MR. WARD:
Do any utilities hire graduate 12 engineers into auxiliary operator positions?
Do they?
13 MR. CARROLL:
Well, I mean they would take a guy
()
14 if he was willing to work for that kind of. money, but that 15 isn't that good a job.
16 DR. REMICK:
Just pay them more.
17 MR. CARROLL:
Sure.
18 MR. WARD:
Okay.
Is that what you think the 19 Policy Statement is encouraging then?
That there be two 20 levels of auxiliary operators?
21 MR. CARROLL:
Most of the degreed people in my 22 experience are guys that got licenses--I mean they were 23 engineers that had been around awhile, got a-license in 24 connection with starting the plant up or whatever.
Put in 25 some time on shift,-but certainly didn't come up through the l
)
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1 ranks of operations.
2 MR. WARD:
But the. Policy Statement is actually--
3-MR. CARROLL:
Where does it say that?
4 MR.. WARD:
--encouraging that.
Yeah.
5 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
6' MR. MARD:
If you look at the second paragraph on 7
page 10 of the--
8 MR. CARROLL:
Yeah.
On page 9.
I'm on the third 9
full paragraph of page 9.
" Commission encourages plant.
10-licensees to hire for entry-level positions on the operating 11 staff."
12 I took that to mean most plants have, under the 13 Operations Manager, they have the shift organization and
()
14 they also have an operations engineering support 15 organization.
Guys that write procedures and investigate 16 operational problems and that sort of stuff.
That's what I 17 took that to mean.
18 And you are telling me that means hiring'in as an
, 19 AO.
20 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I think that's what the intent l
21 was.
-I 22 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It would not mean that that's the l
23 only place where you hire in.
But it suggests to hire not.
j 24 only on the top levels but also hire on the AO level.
1.
L 25' DR. REMICK:
On page 10, the second paragraph, I i
I l
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<a 64-1 think is'what Dave might have been referring.to.
j
'2' MR. WARD:
Yeah..
'3
'DR..REMICK:. It cays, "-.will have' senior 1-4 operators onJahift who.have progressed through.the typical 5:
experience pattern including the' auxiliary' operators."!.It L
6:
doesn't say all.or anything..
I.
l.
~7 MR.-' WARD: ' And is that proposing.-that;there should1 8.
be~a mix?
Is that>the idea?-
9 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.-
The' idea is that it"would be-1 l
10 available and people-would be. hired in there also.
. 11 MR. WARD:' So you>really aren't--the Policy-12
' Statement-is-not' encouraging'all SRO's nave. degrees?-
13
- MR. ROSZTOCZY
- : No. -
14 MR. WARD:
But some mix.
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's right.. Keep?in mind-that 16 the second--even in the rule the second option or the second 17 l alternative in the rule did not require that senior i
18 operators would have a degree.
It went;only to the' shift' 19 supervisor.
20 And one of the comments that-we have heard from l
1 21 utilities is that they didn't like that.
They didn't like.
-)
'22
-it because they said weishould be able to pick the guy for; 23 the shift supervisor who was the best qualified.. And we 24 don't want to be restricted to pick.the degreed one.
They 25 said we would have much less problem with having some SO's
]
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1 with degrees on the shift but we wouldn't want to be 2
restricted to pick the degraed one to be the shift 3
supervisor.
That was probably one of the strongest ideas.
4 So with the Policy Statement there is no 5
requirement.
Nobody's career path is blocked.
It's simply 6
an encouragement to the utility to provide educational 7
means, hire people in with a strong educational background.
8 And also to encourage people who are not on the shift 9
operations to get involved in the operation of the plant and i
10 gain operating experience.
So degreed people gain more 11 operating experience. A better mix starting from both ends.
12 DR. KERR:
Now, for example, in this last page, 13 the second bullet, there is an injection that utilities
()
14 should make operating staff positions attractive to them.
15 Is the implication that they should be treated differently l
16 than other entry-level position people?
In which case, it 17 seems to me you have two entry levels, cne of which is 18 attractive--
l l
19 MR. CARROLL:
It would seem to me you'd have a 20 pretty big anion grievance on your hands.
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I don't think that one would mean 22 that you had kind of discrimination.
I think it's more just 23 to set the overall system in such a way that it's attractive 24 not only to certain kinds of people but it's also attractive 25 to some of the other kind of whom you would like to have in Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l 66 p) 1 the program.
Se it's a general elevation of the position.
q 2
MR. CARROLL:
Let me make a couple of points about 3
this that I don't think the utility that I came from is any 4
sense atypical.
The entry level for graduate engineers with 5
a Bachelor's Degree is about the same as a control room 6
operator.
The. auxiliary operator position, by contrast, is 7
maybe two-thirds that salary..Because you are trying to 0
hire smart kids out of high school with a pretty good high 9
school education and good mechanical aptitude.
I mean 10 that's what that position is aimed at.
11 So there's one problem I see.
How am I going to 12 get a graduate engineer to accept a job at two-thirds the 13 pay as an auxiliary operator.
()
14 DR. REMICK:
I don't see why you pay them two-15 thirds though.
If you bring them into an engineering 16 position and one of his assignments to go out and work with 17 auxiliary operators, he could still be paid more than--
18 MR. CARROLL:
No, sir.
No, sir.
Work with.
But 19 to work as he has to--the normal union agreement is that we 20 are entering into an elective bargain agreement with UTBW 21 Local No. XX, to perform all physical work in our power 22 plant.
And everybody that is going to do physical work has 23 to be a member of the union.
And operate under the rules 24 that exist there.
25 Which brings me to the next point, the rules of Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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~()
1 seniority.
In a stable plant, just looking at promotions' I
V 2
and attrition, you are talking about fifteen years minimum, 3
I would say, to progress from entry-level auxiliary operator 4
to be qualified to be on the candidates' -list for a shift 5
supervisor.
6 See, part of the union agreement is that promotion 7
is not based on the best person for the next job, to move 8
from AO to assistant control operator.
It's based on 9
whether you are adequate and have passed the qualification 10 test.
You can't pick people.
If they've passed all the 11 qualification tests, you can have a real genius sitting here 12 in that pool of people, but the most senior guy gets the 13 job.
14 DR. REMICK:
I don't think the Commission can 15 solve the problem of those utilities who aren't too smart in 36 their bargaining agreements.
17 MR. CARROLL:
What do you mean weren't too smart 18 in their bargaining agreements?
That's the way every union 19 contract is.
Unions are based on seniority not on real 20 qualification.
21 DR. REMICK:
I bet you there has to be a way if 22 you want to get engineers who are interested in operation--
23 I'm convinced there are engineers who are interested in 24 operation who would even be willing to work a year or so 25 with auxiliary operators--
()
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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(
1-MR. CARROLL:
Oh, well,.'that's kind of'a different 2
thing.
'3 DR. REMICK: 'That's not what this says.
4.
MR. WARD:
You-are talking about. putting them.in a 5
training assignment as engineers--
6 DR. REMICK:
Sure.
7-MR. CARROLL:
No problem. ~You can payfthem more.
8 MR. WARD:
That's something veryfdifferent.'
'You can get them experience.
You-9 MR. CARROLL:
10 want to get them experienced,-sure.
11'-
MR. MARD:
Well, I question ~whether that's really, 12 quite the same experience.
13 DR. KERR:
Well, it'says' college. graduates.should
-( )
14 be hired for entry-level positions.: It doesn't say to " work 15 with."
1 16 MR. CARROLL:
Entry-level engineering positions.
17 DR. KERR:
It doesn't say to work with entry-level i
18 positions.
4 19-DR. REMICK:
I think-there's a difference though
.l 20 in hiring somebody for a position like that'than hiring 21 somebody and training him,_ giving him adequate training.
.i 22 MR. CARROLL:
Yeah.
I can hire the engineer into 23 the operations engineering group and as part of his training 24 I can say, " Hey, Joe, you are going to work with the AO and 25 follow him around.
Don't turn any dials though because Heritage Reporting Corporat. ion (202)'.628-4888 t
69
'f];
-1 there will be a grievance."
2 DR. REMICK:
That's something that's been done in-3 plants for years.
4 MR. WARD:
But I don't know'that you need a' Policy 5
Statement.
The Policy Statement is confused over whether 6'
it's really saying that.
I mean Forrest is interpreting it..
~
7 That's what he' d like to hear 'it. say.
8 MR. CARROLL:
I'm hearing reasons why you can't.do 9
it.
There are ways.of doing~it if you want to do it.
10 MR. WARD:
Yes,.but the Policy Statement is not 11 saying that.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Yeah, but not to hire them in in 13 that position.
{}
14 DR. REMICK:
In an entry-level position?
15 MR. WARD:
It seems to me what some people would 16 like the Policy. Statement to be saying is that utilities be 17 encouraged to make sure that they have in their complement 18 of real shift supervisors a mix of people with engineering 19 backgrounds and people have come up through the ranks.
20 And, you know, my personal prejudice is that 21 sounds pretty good.
I like that sort'of thing.
But that's
-1 22 not what the Policy Statement is saying or encouraging, the 1
23 best I can figure out.
24 In fact, here is the comments from one of the-
)
25: ' Commissioners.
And I presume is thinking is going to get Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 1
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1 into the Policy Statement.
It's not clear if this is 2
already in.
But he says, "I,want the Policy Statement to 3
clearly underscore the importance--the acquisition of 4
academic degrees by all reactor operators and senior reactor 5
operators.".It doesn't just say shift supervisors.
And it.
6 doesn't even just say SRO's.
But it says "also RO's."
7 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It's only encouragement, isn't it?
8 MR. WARD:
Well, it says, "I want the Policy 9
Statement to clearly underscore the importance, as well as 10 the general benefits to the individual, the power plant and 11 the industry, of the holding and/or acquisition of the 12 academic degrees by all reactor operators and senior reactor 13 operators."
()
14 DR. REMICK:
That's sure not in there, no.
And I 15 doubt very much it's intended to be.
16 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It's there but not in those terms.
17 It's there in the terms that it provides an encouragement 18 for operators on every level to strive for more education 19 and more knowledge.
It's there in that sense.
But it's not 20 in there in the sense that they would want to see all the i
21 operators to have it, no.
l 22 DR. KERR:
It seems to me that one could write l
23 about a half page Folicy Statement which says, "We think
]
24 it's a good idea for some of the people who are operating on 25 shift to have degrees."
Because that I am told is what the Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888
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71 J()
1 Commissioners have in mind..
They just want.to give some 2
good advice on an idea that they think is a good idea.
3
.And it could be a lot more effective if you could 4
put it on one page and make it in large blocksletters.
5 DR.-REMICK:
Do you'want to continue with your 6'
bullets and then we'll get into--
7 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
JYes.
I think we were.on the third'
'8 bullet on the last.page.
9 The Commission encourages the utilities to provide 10 opportunities for operators to advance intofmanagement 11' positions.
I think we discussed this-earlier, 12 And they also recommend that the operators on 13 shift who have progressed--
(}
14-DR. KERR:
Excuse me.
Before you go to that one.
15 HKhen the term " gain operational experience" is used, do I 16 read that to mean experience as a. licensed cperator?
l 17 Because it seems to me operational experience can mean just 18 the sort of thing that a manager of operation gets as a h
19 manager of operationa.
And yet the' implication here is that f
20 he--
21 MR.- CARROLL:
Or a nuclear engineer might get in 22 directing a test program of some sort.
l l
23 DR. KERR:
Yeah.
I mean'that to me--
'l I
24 MR. WARD:
Or a rookie engineer might get l
25 following.an auxiliary operator around for six months.
()
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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1 DR..KERR:
Is the implication that'one can get the I
2 sort of experience that is being suggested only as a 3
licensed operator?
.j 4
LGt. ROSZTOCZY:
I believe the-suggestion is that l
5 the experience that can be gained by'actually working.on the i
6
' premise an operator-is a valuable experience and they 7
encourage that managers should be exposed to this 8'
experience.-
9 DR..KERR:
If that's.the case, I think--I realize 10 that this is not the Policy. Statement, but if that same 11 language appeared.in the Policy Statement and that's what 12 the Commission has in mind, I think it ought to be more 13 specific.
And say, " Managers to gain experience as a
()
14 licensed operator."
15 HR. ROSZTOCZY:
Well, let's take a look at what's 16 in the Policy Statement.
The top paragraph on page 10.
17 DR. REMICK:
The first full paragraph?
18 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
No, the very top' paragraph.
19 1R. WARD:
Yes.
It says it sort of the other way 20 around, but I guess it means that.
It's the paragraph 21 starting at the bottom of page 9 is what you mean.
22 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes, that's right.
23 MR. WARD:
"We encourage opportunities for 24 licensed operators" but then it says, "And others with 25 nuclear power plant operating experience to assume positions Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
73 1
of increased management responsibilities."
(}-
2 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
And continue from there, continue.
3 MR. WARD:
"In the same vein,' policies and 4
programs- " Everybody can read it, I guess.
5 DR.'KERR:-
It's not clear to me what " including" 6
means in that context.
7 MR. WARD:
Well, it would seem that the second 8
sentence kind of dilutes the "and including."
Is that how 9
you read that?
l 10 DR. KERR:
Well, you see, it could mean that the 11 meaningful knowledge and experience including sufficient l
12 training might mean that it has to include that.
Or it l
13 could mean that that's one way of getting it.
So it's 14 ambiguous.
And I don't know which it is.
{
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
One way of getting it.
It's a 16 good way to get some additional operating experience.
17 MR. CARROLL:
Well, the other ball of fire.
I 18 have a problem with--
19 DR. KERR:
But without your exiguous, one would 20 not know which of the meanings to--
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
We don't really take that comment.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Principal facility and corporate 23 management.
Are you suggesting, for example, that the 24 manager of the administrative service--how about the 25 security management?
()
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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74 (O
,)
1 MR. ROSZTOCZY-No, I don't think so.
I think it i
H 2
would be basically in the technical field.
People who are 3
making decisions on the technical field.
4 MR. CARROLL:
That could be qualified a little 5
better.
Corporate managers to be the manager of the fossil 6
power plants.
I don't mean'that either.
Corporate nuclear 7
managers.
8 DR. KERR:
I'm glad to know that utilities should 9
continue to develop reactor operators that have a 10 significant amount of hands-on operational experience.
11 DR. REMICK:
I caught that.
12 DR. KERR:
I found something in this Policy 13 Statement which I wholeheartedly agree with.
()
14 MR. CARROLL:
The beginning of the next paragraph.
15 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Let me try, let me try.
16 They emphasize that they would like to see 17 operators on shift who have progressed through a typical 18 experience path so they don't just jump into that position.
19 And--
20 MR. CARROLL:
But the union agreement forces that.
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
I am not sure.
You might know 22 more about it, but even with the union agreement, isn't it 23 possible to enter at different levels?
Like, for example, 24 some might enter as an operator, enter as an auxiliary I
i 25 operator.
1 i
f Heritage Reporting Corporation N
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l 75 I )
1 MR. CARROLL:
That's happened in a few cases.
For 2
example, SMUD didn't have any fossil power plants or any 3
pool of power plant people.
So when they initially staffed, I
4 they hired a bunch of people from other utilities or from
{
5 the Navy, initially stuck them in as control operator, 6
auxiliary operator, you know, whatever they thought they 7
were qualified for.
But once they got a progression 8
started, the union just won't stand still for the idea that 9
seniority doesn't prevail.
All the way up to the first 10 management position, which is typically the shift foreman, 11 shift supervisor.
Then management has the prerogative of 12 picking that person.
13 But normally the utility that has progression and
()
14 qualifying exams, once you pass that exam for promotion, 15 it's strictly based on seniority.
You cannot pick the best 16 guy.
17 MR. WYLIE:
I think Jay has got a good point.
At.
18 least 50 percent of the plants (inaudible) 19 DR. REMICK:
There are some plants where all 20 operators are degreed in the United States.
21 MR. WARD:
All operators are what?
22 DR. REMICK:
Degreed.
That's the way with them 23 damn Yankees.
24 MR. WYLIE:
You say the union dictates it, but the 25 statement is still a good statement.
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
76
)
1 MR. CARROLL:
At what?
2 MR. WYLIE:
Well, I mean it's desirable to have
'3 somebody'who's progressed through-the ranks operating the--
4 MR. WARD:
Yes.
In fact, couldLI ask Zoltan what
'S the purpose of this is.
..It's the fourth bullet and it's the 6
first full paragraph on the top of page 10.
7 Now, this is a Policy Statement on education'for 8
senior operators and shift. supervisors. -By the.way, it 9
doesn't just say shift supervisors.
But this says, 10
" Utilities'should continue to develop reactor operators.that 11 have a significant amount'of hands-on experience," and it
'12 goes on--desirable to progress through-the aux operator-and 13 so forth.
()
14 Is what that paragraph ist saying, hey, don't go 15
.too far with this degree on shift thing?
We really think 16 that the healthy thing is to have a mix of shift l l
~l 17 supervisors.
Some who have an academic background and they l
18 are degreed.
And others who have come up through the. ranks.
19 We think that the kind of plant we want out there has-a mix 20 of these.
I 21 Is that what that paragraph is saying?
-j i
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
Yes.
23 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes, for senior operators.
They 24 expect to have a mix of senior operators, some came up this i
25 way, some the others.
I Heritage Reporting Corporation I
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77 (J
1 MR. WARD:
Oh, but for supervisors.
2 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Shiftisupervisors.
And then from j
3 these they pick the one who they think is the best fit for 4
. shift supervisor.
So on an average you probably will end up 5
.with some shift supervisors having degrees and some not.
I 6
having degrees.
7 MR. FLEISHMAN:- I think they were concerned about 8
people who became senior-operators without ever having been l
9 reactor operators or. auxiliary-operators, with a degree to' l
l 10 become a senior operator without ever having.been_a reactor 11-operator.
And I think the feeling is that they should=have 12-senior operators who actually have progressed through the 13 normal career path.
l
. ()
14 MR. CARROLL:
But as we've said earlier, you can 15 satisfy that in a different way.
And what you.are l
l 16 suggesting there just isn't practical in terms of people's l
17 salary.
18 MR. WARD:
So this plant where all the operators 19 have degrees, you've got some--you are kind of worried about i
20 them I guess.
l 21 DR. KERR:
No, Jay.
I mean that paragraph _is--
if 22 I'm hearing' correctly, is not addressed to the degreed 23 person.
24 DR. REMICK:
Oh, I. understand.
25 DR. KERR:
Okay.
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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()
1 DR. REMICK:
But Dave was--
2 MR. WARD:
I'm just trying to get--I mean the 3
logic here--if we mean this statement or this fourth bullet, 4
if the Commissioners mean that, then I guess you might kind 5
of look askance at this particular plant that has all 6
degreed operators, unless they in fact are people who got 7
degrees after they came up through the ranks or something.
8 DR. REMICK:
Or they went through the ranks with a 9
degree.
I 10 MR. FLEISHMAN:
That's right.
I think they've 11 gone through the normal progression.
12 MR. CARROLL:
I just can't believe that.
The pay 13 isn't that good.
()
14 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I don't know, you know.
Maybe l
15 they have an explanation.
I have a question from what Jay l
16 says.
l 17 MR. CARROLL:
I suspect, Forrest, that--I'm not l
18 sure which Yankee plant, but at someplace near--someplace l
l 19 where they can get a degree easily, and they had enough 20 operators, and I suspect they sent everybody back to school 21 to get a clear technologist degree.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
My impression is I think it may 23 have come from some of the comments, was that some utilities 24 actively hired people with degrees to eventually become 25 senior operators.
And they came in at the beginning of the Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
79 l
()
1 progrnm and they actually went through a whole progression 1
2 level, through a period of many years, five or more years, l
3 working up through the ranks to become final senior 4
operators, with the training--
5 MR. CARROLL:
But if you have to follow seniority, 6
given the turnover in a stable nuclear plant, you are 7
talking fifteen years.
8 MR. WARD:
Yeah, but he's saying this particular 9
plant may have evolved in that way and that's why it has--
10 and so that's why you wouldn't be worried about them because I
11 they do have a mix of people.
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Okay.
So let's move to the next 13 bullet which is now the fifth one on the page.
This one
()
14 addresses the shift supervisors and it's encourages that the 15 shift supervisors would have appropriate levels of 16 education, technical fundamentals, and training in 17 particular systems and so on.
18 The next bullet discusses the shift technical 19 advisor positions and the Commission expresses the desire to 20 retain that position and at the same time to restate the 21 earlier position that they encourage the dual position of 22 the senior operator and the shift technical advisor.
23 And finally a general statement--
24 MR. WARD:
Can I ask you a question about the 25 fifth one?
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
80 m()
1 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Sure.
2 MR. WARD:
This is the one where the Policy 3
Statement says the Commission believes the highest priority 4
should be given to assuring that the shift supervisors and 5
other individuals with decision-making authority on each 6
shift--why does it say that?
I mean who are these other 7
individuals with decision-making authority?
I mean how far 8
does that extend?
9 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
This goes back I think to the 10 example that Mr. Carroll brought up earlier.
That the shift 11 supervisor's title is used somewhat uniformly within the 12 various utilities and I think the example there was a single 13 control room for two units which has two shift supervisors
')
(
14 and has a shift manager there.
15 This statement would address all three of those 16 individuals.
17 MR. WARD:
Oh.
So this would mean with similar
'1 18 decision-making authority?
I 19 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
20 MR. WARD:
Is that really what that means?
l 21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes, yes.
22 MR. WARD:
It's just talking about the titles, not 23 talking about--
24 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
These are people on shift who are 25 in the decision-making position independent to what they Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
81-1 happen to be called at different units.
2 MR. WARD:
Yeah, but you see, as it's stated now, 3
other individuals with decision-making authority--well, I 4
mean there are a lot of other individuals on shift with 5
decision-making authority of some sort at some level.
But 6
you are really-pardon?
7 MR. FLEISHMAN:
It makes sense.
8 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
This is similar to the shift 9
supervisor.
10 MR. WARD:
I'm just trying to figure out what you 11 mean.
You mean similar or equivalent?
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
That's what I mean.
13 MR. WARD:
Okay.
All right.
()
14 And then the final bullet, just a general 15 endorsement of the importance of professionalism.
16 DR. KERR:
But one could also quite readily read 17 it to say that the current professionalism in no utility is 18 adequate.
"The professionalism of the position should be 19 increased" it says.
And the Policy Statement says, 20
" Utilities should continue their efforts to increase the j
21 professionalism of these positions."
22 I am puzzled that the Commission is convinced that 23 every utility needs to increase the professionalism of its 24 positions.
To sustain seems to me to be a more appropriate j
25 word, or something like it.
I i
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1 MR. CARROLL:
Remain at a high' level'or something 2_
MR. ROSZTOCZY: 'This is an area.where we.did have 3
a number of problems in the relative recent'past including 4
Peach Bottom and so on.
5 So I think the Commission is looking for some l
l 6
improvement.: Whether than improvement has already been 7.
achieved or whether it.still remains to be achieved,1I!think j
8 we don't'have a good measure of that.
9 DR. KERR:
The fact that it occurred at Peach 10 Bottom or some other place does not mean that every utility 11 is deficient in this area.
And one could easily. read that 12 paragraph to mean that.
13 MR. ROSZTOCZY:' It wasn't intended to be written
()
14 that every utility-has a deficiency.today.
That wasn't the 15 intent and let us look at it.
16 DR. REMICK:
That bullet could be clarified.
17 MR. FLEISHMAN:
In a way, I think they were 18 referring to that " principles for enhancing professionalism 19 of nuclear personnel of INPO."
And they are basically say 20 go ahead with it and continue that.
21' DR. REMICK:
That plus the " bottoms up" effort of 22 the operators themselves writing codes of conduct and so the 23 one that you refer you is the top down effort and there was L
24 another effort too in which the utilities through INPO were 3
25 trying to improve the professionalism.
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-( J-l' But-I agree with what Bill is saying,;you don't 2
want it to be saying that every utility has to, because 3
there might be some out there that have adequate 4-
. professionalism.
5 MR.'ROSZTOC"Y:
And they also had that the 6
generosity _ meant up front,Lthat the present-status is 7
satisfactory..So I think having that-together with this--
8 DR. REMICK:
Okay.
Let's open it up for general 9
discussions, if we have any..
10 I guess personally.-I was a little. surprised b'y 11 some of the comments.
The reason being, I guess I've. felt-
'2 for eight or nine years,- since this subject came up,.I've
~
13 always taken the position that I certainly could not see
(}
1.
requiring that every senior operator-should have-a degree 15 for various reasons.
But I've always'said that if I had the 16 responsibility for staffing a plant, a multi-billion plant, 17 I sure as. heck would see that on every.one of my shifts I 18 had some engineers.
Not every operator would be an' 19 engineer, but I sure would want some engineers on shifts.
20 So personally, I've'always supported the concept 21-of some engineering expertise on shift but thought it was i
22 nonsense to think.about making every senior operator a j
23 degreed individual.
24 I guess I see a lot of these things, therefore I 25 don't find objection to them although the wording I guess Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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I could in some cases be read one way or the other.
2 It goes along I guess with my feeling that people 3
should be encouraged to have engineers who are willing to 4
work in operations.
I've L1 ways firmly believed that you 5
can get some engineers who are interested in operation and 6
if you really make it so that reactor operations is a 7
profession and you treat them like professionals, that the 8
engineers will stay on there for some years.
Maybe not a 9
lifetime of their profession.
10 I've always felt that very sincerely I was 11 encouraged and I realize it's an isolated example, but we 12 were at Limerick and we met a young fellow there who had 13 been five years on shift.
He had & degree in mechanical
()
14-engineering from Swarthmore, and was current an STA.
And I 15 particularly talked to him and so forth.
And he found it a 16 real interesting occupation.
He' d come up--I doubt if he 17 was auxiliary operator.
But he'd come up through the ranks 18 and now was an STA and so he enjoyed that.
19 MR. WYLIE:
He was presently an STA.
20 DR. REMICK:
He was presently an STA.
Yeah, he 21 happened to be on shift the day we went through and he was 22 introduced to us and I talked to him a little bit.
23 And I have always felt--I was one of those 24 engineers who could be interested in operation.
And was for 25 a short while.
And there are people that can find that a Huritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 challenge if they are treated properly and--let's say, I l
2 would encourage it.
1 1
3 DR. KERR:
I have no objection, and indeed I think 4
it would probably be a mistake not to have it possible for 5
engineers to be on shift, if they want to be on shift.
And 6
I think there.are some who would want to be and would do 7
well.
8 I'm reluctant to require that or to have a utility 9
require that this be a requisite.
Because it seems to me 10 that if, you know, there ought to be some requirements for 11 the skills and competencies of operators.
And if these do 12 not at present--and the licensed requirements for operators 13 certainly don't necessarily require a person to have a
()
14 degree to pass the licensing exams very well, then I don't 15 see why one needs to have all operators or encourage all 16 operators to have degrees.
It's that I have a problem with.
17 DR. REMICK:
Well, I agree wholeheartedly, but 18 this does not require all operators.
It does not 19 necessarily encourage all operEtors.
20 DR. KERR:
Mr. Carr said--
21 DR. REMICK:
No, Mr. Rogers, in his own views, but 22 that isn't what the Policy Statement--
23 DR. KERR:
Mr. Carr says that he wants--he would 24 like to see the Policy Statement underline the importance of 25 having all operators and senior operators to have degrees.
Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
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86 1-DR. REMICK:
Does Carrfsay thatLtoo?
I know.
2' Rogers does.
But I didn'tlsee that Carr did.-
.3 MR.~ROSZTOCZY: -But-the Policy Statement does not J
4 do that.
5 DR.-KERR:
No.
It doesn't at'present.
6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:-.That's-correct.
7 HR. WARD:
It might if three our of the five 8
Commissioners think itsshould.
9 MR. CARROLL:
I don't think~ Rogers is saying' 10 everybody ought to have a degree.
11 DR. REMICK:' Carr doesn't-:say that.
12 MR. CARROLL:
He's saying that it-should
'13 underscore the importance of degrees to the industry as well
()
14 as the general benefit to:the individual and so forth of..
15 having a degree.
It isn't saying I think.everybody needs 16 it.
He's saying the statement ought to say--
17 DR. KERR:
We can. read between the lines.
Are you 18 reading between his lines somewhere.
He doesn't say that.
19 DR. REMICK:
Well, Dave read something from Mr.
20 Carr earlier that I thought--
21 MR. WARD:
No, that was Mr. Rogers.
22 DR. REMICK:
Rogers feels that it's obvious.
He 23 comes from an academic institution that, you know, it should 24 be an accredited institution and accredited programs.- But I
'25 must admit his next words after that puzzle me because I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888
87 O)
's 1
read them too as saying he basically wants all people to l
2 have--all operators and all senior operators to have 3
degrees.
I read his words and I wonder if that isn't just 4
incorrect.
But I've got to take them at face value.
5 DR. KERR:
I think that's what he meant.
6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
That's a surprising one for us too 7
because Commissioner Rogers was the one who was a very 8
strong supporter of the Alternative 2 which limited the 9
requirement to shift supervisor.
So he did not insist--as a 10 matter of fact, he said he could not go along at the 11 Commission meeting back last September--he said he could not 12 go along with the requirement that all senior operators have 13 a degree, but he would go for the shift supervisor.
So
()
14 that statement might be in error.
I don't know.
15 DR. REMICK:
Well, my impression is, as you've 16 just stated, was his position, but I find these words 17 inconsistent with that and I'm puzzled.
And I wonder if 18 it's not an error.
But I don't know.
19 DR. KERR:
Well, if you read the whole paragraph, 20 I mean he would have had to have been asleep when he wrote 21 it if he didn't mean it, because he sort of emphasizes it, 22 and you know, the individuals in the non-shift supervisor 23 position, he wouldn't necessarily require that their degrees 24 be from accredited institutions, but he wants them to have 25 degrees.
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t' r===11 2-2
-MR. FLEISHMAN:
I'thinkzthere'were a lot of 3
. Commissioners who had ideas before the Policy Statement was 4
written and-they.weren't all_in complete agreement with each.
5 other.
Supposedly this Policy' Statement is'some sort of a 6
reasonable compromise among differing views.
I think you 7
should really concentrate on the Policy Statement,rather 8
than what was said-before it'was written.
9 DR. REMICK:
'I agree, yes.
And the fact that I-10 think the Policy Statement itself was primarily drafted by 11 Commissioners' assistants, is that correct?
12 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yes.
13 DR. REMICK:
It probably. fairly closely represents
()
14
_the Commissioners' views.
15 DR. KERR:
Well, I think it's a great Policy 16 Statement.
17 (Laughter.)
18 DR. REMICK:
I think I've got to go to the 19 dictionary and look up some words before I would' agree with 20 that.
21 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Can we quote you on that?
22 (Laughter.)
23 DR. REMICK:
I'm sure he will be quoted.
24 Let's for a minute address this question that Mr.
25 Roberts asked us to address, and that is the thing we were Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 just'tmlking about.. The'need to encourage that the 2
employees hired for operating positions.and who do have 3
degrees, that those degrees.be.from accredited institutions 4
and.in particular'from accredited. programs.
He's asked us 5
to address that.
1 1
6 Does anybody want- -
l 7
MR.-FLEISHMAN: :Are you sure he'said accredited l
B program also,_because--
'h, I'm sorry.
Okay.
We have it in 9
DR..REMICK::
O 10 front of.us.
Let's read it..
11 MR. FLEISHMAN:
Because I know--I think Rogers had 12 specifically pointed out the difference between accredited-13
-institutions and accredited programs.
()
14 DR.~ REMICK:
Yes.
I don't know if it was intentional 16 to'say accredited institution or not.
17 DR. REMICK:
I probably am misquoting him.
Here
.18 we are.
19 MR. WARD:
I don't understand the issue here.
~
20 Rogers seems to say accredited institution, yes.
Accredited 21 program, no.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
No, no.
23 DR. KERR:
No, it's.the other way around.
24 MR. FLEISHMAN:
It's-the other way around.
25 DR..REMICK:.He says both.
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1 MR. FLEISHMAN:
You can have an accredited program 2
in an accredited institution, but you could also have a non-3 accredited program in an accredited institution.
By 4
accreditation, I think he's talking about an ABET accredited 5
program.
So you could have an accredited institution that's 6
regionally-accredited, but--
7 DR. KERR:
Do you want a brief leeson in 8
accreditation?
9 DR. REMICK:
I think we need one.
Because I had 10 the impression different programs in--
11 DR. KERR:
A college or university can be 12 accredited by an organization that accredits institutions.
l 1
13 DR. REMICK:
Right.
J
/~h 14 DR. KERR:
But does not look at individual
)
V 15 programs.
The ABET specifically and other similar programs, 16 but ABET is the recognized accreditation organization for 17 engineering programs at the present time.
An accredited 18 institution may have an engineering program and most of them 19 are accredited by ABET.
But not automatically.
ABET comes 20 in and looks specifically at the engineering programs and 21 individual programs, such as civil engineering, mechanical, 22 electrical, and you can have an accredited electrical 23 program, and maybe not an accredited something else program.
24 MR. WARD:
Well, what are we talking about here?
l 25 DR. KERR:
Rogers is saying that he wants his (n,)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
91 O-eneineers to he from an accredited greeram.
Se.that:1f
- 1 2
Institution X has a program in mechanical' engineering that's.
3-accredited, hs' d find, that acceptable.
But if the 4
. electrical engineering were not accredited,.he wouldn't find i
!5 that degree' acceptable.
'6 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Again, I would like to--
~
7 MR. WARD:
What does the Policy Statement say?.
8-MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Yeah, I think that's the'important 9
.part.
But the. comments that you are'. reading, thoseLeomments-10 were made by the Commissioners prior to preparation of.the 11' Policy Statement.
After looking at those comments, we
'12 started to work on it together'with the Commissioners' staff 13 to prepare the Policy Statement.
O 14
't' rse9 nait' ta 1
- rn11e err,a 15
'especially the last.two sentences.
That's the only place 16 where accreditation comes into the Policy Statement.
^
17 DR. KERR:
I believe had Mr. Rogers ever served on 18 an ABET accreditation team,'he would not have the viewpoint 19 that he stated here.
I have served on a number of them.
20 MR. WARD:
What you just pointed out would be the 21 Policy Statement is encouraging degrees that come'from ABET ~
22 accredited--
23 MR. FLEISHMAN:
No, not ABET, ABET.
No, no.
24 MR. WARD:
No?
25 DR. REMICK:
No..
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1 MR. FLEISHMAN:
No, it says accredited programs in L./
2 the Policy Statement.
3 DR. REMICK:
It could ABET or otherwise.
4 How, two things.
Let's read what it eays because 5
it's--
6 MR. WARD:
I just heard Bill's lecture and I 7
thought I understood it.
8 DR. REMICK:
Okay.
ABET is not mentioned.
ABET 9
is not mentioned.
10 MR. WARD:
Bill says that's what accredited 11 program means.
12 DR. REMICK:
No.
That is one of the 13 interpretations.
In other words, most engineering programs
(}
14 are accredited by ABET.
15 DR. KERR:
But there's no engineering programs 16 that are accredited by anybody other than ABET.
17 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
Individual accreditation?
18 DR. KERR:
Not for engineering, no.
19 DR. REMICK:
There are other accrediting 20 institution organizations that accredit not engineering but 21 nuclear science programs.
New York State whatever that is, 22 I think is accredited by Edison or one of the others--
23 MR. WARD:
Bill didn't explain that.
24 DR. REMICK:
He was giving you the ABET.
And 25 there's no question about it--major engineering programs Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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l' are--
2 DR._KERR:
Recognize the accreditation agency for 3
engineering.is ABET.
4
'MR. WA'RD :
This says accredited programs in 5-engineering or engineering technology.
6 fDR. KERR:
For engineering, the~only logical way 7
to read that is that this means ABET.
8 MR. WARD:- But he's saying'the only logicaliway,to 9'
read this--
l
-10 DR. KERR:
For engineering is-ABET.
11 MR. WARD:
Now, is there some other way to read it 12 for engineering technology?
13 DR. KERR: -ABET accredits engineering technology.
()
'14 It may be accredited by other organizations as well..
I.
15
-don't know.
l 16 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
There'are two statements there.
l l
17 One of them refers to accredited institutions.
That's the.
18 sentence before the last.
And the last one refers to 19 accredited programs.
It would be our ur.derstanding that the 20 regional accrediting bodies do accredit institutions.
So 21 the first paragraph would apply.
The regional.would be.
22 acceptable-under that.
23 And the second one would be more of the ABET sort 24 in the engineering field.
- i 25 Furthermore, I would like to-point out that all of U
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1 this becomes somewhat peripheral now because if you have 2
only a Policy Statement, no requirement, only a Policy 3
Statement, then it really doesn't have a tremendous 4
standing.
They are encouraging further engineering 5
knowledge for their education.
6 So if there is a junior college next door and the 7
question is is it advisable to go and take some engineering 8
courses in the junior college next door, reading the Policy 9
Statement, it would say, yes, by all means do it.
10 At the same time, they are also encouraging to 11 obtain degrees and to obtain degrees from accredited 12 institutions.
13 But I think it's a continuous encouragement of
/( )
14 gaining additional background and additional' training.
15 MR. WARD:
Well, I don't know, Zoltan.
You are 16 saying that, but that's not what the statement says.
17 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
If you read only that one 18 statement.
But if you read the whole Policy Statement, it 19 talks about engineering background, engineering knowledge.
20 MR. WARD:
Well, if that's what it means, then the 21 paragraph that addresses this should say that clearly.
You 22 know, I just find the--we are having to ask you how each 23 paragraph is interpreted, and you are giving us often an 24 interpretation that's rather different from what the just 25 plain English interpretation might be.
()
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DR. x RR:
This sentence is in there because ar.
2 Rogers is-on the Commission..'See,.this is written for'two-3 audiences.
One audience is the Commission.
And one'is
~4 everybody.else.
. ARD:
A' utility--you know, the people in-5 MR. W 6
authority, and a utility to decide what it's going to do, 7
are going to. read this paragraph and they are going'to have 8
': r. decide on some kind of program to be responsive to it.
9
.DR.~REMICK:..Well, it is true that there are 10 programs out there'being offered that. people can.take and-11 get a degree for which questionable standards' exist.
So' 12 where I come down personally on it, I sure would prefer that 13 people get a degree, whether it's for the utility or whether
()
14 they are going to work for Bell Tel,.who would have certain 15 assistants or somebody else, that those people either 16 graduate from an institution that has been accredited, so 17 you hope that the overall institution has some kind of 18 standards, or my own personal preference would be that-they.
19 come from a program that has been accredited by some 20 professional organization who's established'certain kinds of 21 standards and you say,-well, if a person graduated from 22 that, certainly you are not guaranteed that he has a good L
23 education and so forth,-or that he's a quality engineer, but'
.24 there's a better chance.
25 LSo when I read this and I thought a lot about it, Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 t
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l' and actually even called ~some people.to make sure I 2
. understood'a"little bit better,1not'here, but people 3'
involved with ABET'and so-forth--Bob Long--by the'way, Bill, 4-because'he had.some concerns about this'in the psst--and I 5
came out that I very much. favored this position, which they 4
J i
6-are basically saying it should be, hopefully at least, an 7
accredited-institution and preferably an accredited-program.
8 I certainly personally would come out with-that 9
way too, whether it be for nuclear: power plants or 10 elsewhere.
11 MR. WYLIE:
Well, there are'two things here.
One 12 is getting operators on board, getting degrees--that's'in 13 paragraph 2.
The other one is hiring new graduates.
(}
14 DR. REMICK:
Yes.
15 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I'think the reason it's done that 16 way is because it's apparently very' difficult while yousare 17 working to actually attend and get an ABET-accredited-18 degree, because they are not very accessible to people.
19 DR. REMICK:
Yes.-
20 MR. FLEISHMAN:
So that's why they figured it 21 might be easier to hire somebody directly from a program 22 than to train them while they are working.
'23 DR. REMICK:
The proposed policy, the second thing 24' that went out, as you pointed out in one of your slides, did 25 say ABET-accredited programs.
Some people I know had an i
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[)
1 objection to that because ABET accredits programs and if you 2
got a degree from that program, it wouldn't necessarily mean 3
that you had the expertise to run a nuclear power plant.
In 4
other words, there are mining engineering and things like 5
that that they accredit also, which might not be a good 6
learning experience to help you in a nuclear power plant.
7 So people objected to ABET from that standpoint.
- Saying, 8
well, not all ABET programs make sense, in this case.
9 And I assume that for some of those reasons that 10 ABET itself was dropped as a specific, but I agree with 11 Bill, when you are talking about accreditation of major 12 engineering programs in the country, undergraduate programs, i
13 why, it's going to be ABET accredited, i
[~}\\
14 Do we need to discuss that any more?
Where did we 1
\\
l 15 come out?
What are we going to tell Roberts?
16 MR. CARROLL:
Why don't you try me again on what 17 Roberts wants?
18 DR. REMICK:
Well, this is what he says.
19 MR. CARROLL:
I don't have his paper.
j l
20 DR. REMICK:
I'm sorry.
" Commissioner Roberts 21 would appreciate ACRS views on the need for a degree from an 22 accredited institution.
He notes that although the 23 Commission's Policy Statement on engineering expertise on 24 shift- " that's something else- " supported by plant-specific 25 orders, requires a degree from an accredited institution.
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1 This Policy Statement is a different case.
- Moreover, 2
Commissioner Roberts notes that an accredited degree is not-3 required as a condition of employment at the NRC.
4 Now, I infer from that that he is--
5 DR. KERR:
I can answer the second one very 6
readily.
I would say I wouldn't -trust the NRC staff to run 7
a nuclear power plant any more than I would trust me.
8 DP-REMICK:
I assume that Commissioner Roberts is 9
opposed to aeference to accredited institutions.
I infer 10 that, but I'm not sure.
Mostly from his last sentence.
11 MR. WARD:
I'm sorry.
I still don't get it.
I 12 guess I heard what he says--what's our response?
What does 13 the Policy Statement say?
()
f 14 MR. WYLIE:
You mean what is required?
15 DR. REMICK:
It encourages that people come and 16 get their degrees from accredited institutions and in 17 particular, from accredited programs.
New hires.
So it's 18 giving emphasis to--
19 MR. WARD:
Where does it say new hires there?
20 MR. WYLIE:
The middle paragraph, page 9, pertains 21 to existing employees getting degrees.
The next paragraph 22 is new hires.
23 MR. ROSZTOCZY:
It's talking about I think l
24 recruiting people and it encourages to recruit people from 1
25 accredited institutions and especially from accredited 1
i r%
l
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2 DR.'KERR:
I would.say that'if one is going to 3.
make-a requirement, we would insist on an accredited
'4 institution.
That's really begging the question'because I-
.5 doubt'if that's really the question he meant to ask.
6 I bet he meant accredited programs.
7 DR. REMICK:
Probably.
8 DR. KERR:
But~if we answer the question that he
~
9 asked, then I.would say--
10 MR.' WARD:
Why don't'we find out-what he meant?
11 DR. REMICK:
Why don't we say.what we want?
12 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I believe the Policy Statement-13 that he's referring to specifically referred to accredited 14 institutions, not accredited programs.
15 DR. REMICK:
Well, that's what he says.
16 MR. FLEISHMAN:- That was.the old Policy' Statement.
17 At that time I think they didn't get into ABET.at all at' 18 that time.
19 DR. REMICK:
Yes, but he says that it requires a 20 degree from an accredited institution, referring'to that 21 Policy Statement.
22 MR. FLEISHMAN:
I think they were basically I
23' talking about a regionally accredited kind of a program.
l l
24 DR. KERR:
I would agree.
I would say.that that-25 would be a good idea personally.-
I'd have more difficulty
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1
.with the ABET accreditation.
2 DR.-REMICK:
Yeah,. yeah.
3 MR. WARD:
I'm sorry.
But I guessLthe paragraph--
'4.
I-guess.this policy, Roberts' paragraph, it says thisl Policy 5
Statement is a different. case.
What does it mean by that?
6 DR. REMICK:
I assume he meant'the policy that-7' we're'now hearing today.is different from the other one.
8 MR. WARD:
Okay.
And he wants to know what we 9
think about'it?
10 DR.'REMICK:
That's-my impression, Dave, but I am j
11 not positive.
12 MR. WARD:
If we want to. answer it,'we need an 13 opinion on whether the part about accredited programs being
()
14 added on to this one.is (inaudible) 15 DR. REMICK:
Well, basically both I think.
16 Although he's only asking about accredited ' institutions.
We 17 need to address what the Policy Statement says and do we 18 agree or disagree?
And in what way?
19 MR. WARD:
No.
But he says a need for a degree 20 from an accredited institution.
And that he notes that the
~
21 earlier engineering expertise Policy Statement required 22 that.-
And this one is a different case.
This.one.is a 23' different case. And that it-adds on to the present program.
L 24 So I think we've got to make--if we really want to answer l
25 his question, we have to make a statement about both, r
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.1 DR. REMICK:
About both,;yes.
I agree'with'you.
2 You have to. remember, I think his comment"was made before he 3
everJsaw what the. Policy Statement says..-
J 4
MR. WARD:
Well, itEsays this Policy Statement is 5
-a different case.-
6
.DR.
REMICK: :Right, it is.
'7 MR.-MARD:
'He must have had:some idea.
8
- DR. REMICK:. Well, that'could be.
.9 MR.-ROSZTOCZY:
Yes,TI think that's probably;the 10 most obvious interpretation,.that they already decidedLand 11' provided the staff with the. requirement to prepare a Policy.
12
. Statement and he's talking about this Policy Statement which:
13 "is under preparation.
But-without necessarily knowingsthis:
14 wording.
15 MR. CARROLL:
Just to get.me calib' rated, can~one 16 of you academics-tell me'what the State University of New-17 York program in nuclear technology is--is that an
~
18 accredited--
19 DR. REMICK:
It is accredited., I think--
20 MR. CARROLL:
As a program or as an= institution?
21 DR. REMICK:
Welle. Bob Long told'me-that.
I.think 22 it's an institution, am I right?
Yes.
And it's by.what?
23 Is it Edison or I forget the accrediting body.
He told me 24 there are two regional accrediting. bodies and he told me-25 which ones for New York, and I'm'sorry, I forget.
I talked Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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-to him on the' phone.
-2 DR. KCRR:
Normally institutions are accredited by 3
regional organizations.
4 MR. WARD:
But the program'is not accredited.-
5 DR. REMICK:
No, I think it's an institution.
6
_DRL KERR:
But he said the nuclear. technology.
7' program was.not accredited by ABET?
8 DR. REMICK:
It's a nuclear science program.'
9 DR. KERR:
Oh.
10
_DR. REMICK:
It's not a --. engineering degree,Eis 11 what he told me.
12 MR. CARROLL:
A Bachelor's Degree in Nuclear 13 Technology.
{}
14 DR. KERR:
For example, at the University of 15 Michigan there is a program in engineering' physic', which is s
16 a good strong program, but doesn't have,enough' design right 17 now to be accredited by ABET.
I personally would much 18 rather have a graduate from that program than a graduate 19 from some of the schools I know that-have accredited-20 engineering programs.
So I have a little difficultyLwith 21 that one, but since Policy Statements don't really have much 22 effect I'm told, I guess--
l 23 MR. CARROLL:
Well, the reason I bring up the j
24 State University of New York is that is a very attractive 25 one for the operator on shift, because they will evaluate Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l l
l 103
( ).'
l' his-life education and training and give him' credit for all 2
the things so he.isn't faced.with four years in college if.
-3' he--
4 MR. WARD:- It sounds to me like'no wonder the 5
program isn't accredited.
6 MR. CARROLL:
It is..That's my say.
7 MR. PERZINSKI:
Jay Perzinski, NRC-staff.
8 If you are talking about the' region's college 9
. program.out of the State University of'New York--
10
.MR.
CARROLL:
Yes,.that's it.
11 MR. PERZINSKI:- That program is in fact 12 individually accredited by a1 regional accrediting authority.
.13 Because each one of their programs is developed-separately
~
(])
-14 and they go for accreditation separately.
15 DR. REMICK:
Do you know who accredited it?
Bob 16 Long did tell me and I forget.
17 MR. PERZINSKI:
I don't know if it's Northeastern 18 Colleges--I have that information but it.is one of the 19 regional authorities.
20 DR. REMICK:
They did accredit the program?
21 MR. PERZINSKI:
Yes.
22 DR. REMICK:
Okay.
That specific program.
And do 23 you remember the name of it?
Is.it nuclear science or 24 nuclear technology?
25 MR. PERZINSKI:
They just changed it recently.
'I' l
)
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)' 628-4888 1
104.
(
1 1think it is now nuclear technology.
2 DR. REMICK:. I:see.
3 MR..PERZINSKI:
It was nuclear science.
4 There's another group, the American--the one that-5-
used.to be the Memphis program. "And that's now American 6
' Technology--and the only program they offer asLfar as I.know 7
'is the' nuclear technology degree.. And that is, again, 8
' accredited.by the' Southeastern group.
9 And from.what.I' heard recently, they are 10 attempting ABET accreditation, but.have.not received'it yet.
11 DR. REMICK:
Have we discussed that point enough?
12 Are there-any general comments.or questions of the 13 staff?
()
14 Do you-want to take a break at-this point?
DoLyou 15 want to take a break and then come back?
All right.
16 (Whereupon, there was a short break.)
17 18 19 20 21 22 I
23
]
24 25 i
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)L 628-4888 I
1 1
CERTIFICATE 2
3 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the 4
United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter 5
of:
6 Name:
ACRS HUMAN FACTORS SUBCOMMITTEE
)
7 8
Docket Number:
9 Place:
Bethesda, Maryland 10 Date:
June 7, 1989 11 were held as herein appears, and that.this is the original 12 transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear
~
13 Regulatory Commission taken stenographically by me and,-
14 thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the 15 direction of the court reporting company, and that the 16 transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing 17 proceedings.
18
/s/ \\.
191
[4 1892tf IRWIN L.
tNBERRY 19 (Signature typed) :
20 Official Reporter 21 Heritage Reporting Corporation 22 23 1
1 24 25 l
O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
g PUBLIC NOTICE BY THE i
2 UllITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S 3
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 4
5 June 7, 1989 6
7 The contents of this stenographic transcript of the 8
proceedings of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 9
Commission's Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards (ACRS),
10 as reported herein, is an uncorrected record of the discussions 11 recorded at the meeting held on the above date.
12 No member of the ACRS Staff and no participant at 13 this raeeting accepts any responsibility for errors or 14 inaccuracies of statement or data contained in this transcript.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i
24 25 9
Heritage Reporting Corpo'ation r
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1 O INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRMAN I
0F THE ACRS SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN-FACTORS, JUNE 7, 1989:
J ROOM 110, PHILLIPS BUILDING, BETHESDA, MD.
THE MEETING WILL NOW COME~TO ORDER. THIS IS A MEETING OF THE ACRS-SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN FACTORS..
I AM F. REMICK, CHAIRMAN. THE OTHER ACRS MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE ARE:
J. CARROLL, W.-KERR, D. WARD AND'C. WYLIE.
TODAY'S MEETING WILL BE T0 REVIEW THE COMMISSION STAFF ~ PREPARED POLICY STATEMENT ON DEGREE REQUIREMENTS FOR SENIOR OPERATORS AND SHIFT SUPERVISORS.
HERMAN ALDERMAN IS THE COGNIZANT ACRS STAFF MEMBER'FOR.TODAY'S MEETING.
THE RULES FOR PARTICIPATION IN TODAY'S MEETING HAVE BEEN ANN 0UNCED AS PART OF THE NOTICE OF THIS MEETING THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE FEDERAL' REGISTER ON' MAY 24, 1989.
THIS MEETING IS BEING CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE-PROVISIONS OF THE FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ACT AND THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE'ACT.
WE HAVE RECEIVED NO WRITTEN OR ORAL STATEMENTS FROM MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC.
IT IS REQUESTED THAT EACH SPEAKER FIRST IDENTIFY HIMSELF OR HERSELF AND SPEAK WITH SUFFICIENT CLARITY AND VOLUME S0 THAT HE OR SHE CAN BE-READILY HEARD.
DO ANY SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS HAVE INITIAL COMMENTS AT THIS TIME 7 (CHAIRMAN'S COMMENTS, IF ANY) WE WILL NOW PROCEED WITH THE MEETING, AND I CALL UPON L
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